Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Saddam vs. Bush
IonAgent7
Member Posts: 32
Hey eveyone, I'm working on a school project, well a debate, about the war in iraq, and was hoping i could a little info, so what do u guys think about the war, should we be there or should we not, and why.... thanks for the help 
---------------------------------------
Then again, what will come of us?
-----------------------------------------
3 Things You Never Ask Your Mother...
#1- Never ask to barrow money to pay the local whore.
#2- Never ask if you can stay home from school because you are suffering from cokane withdraw.
#3- Never ask what those noises in her bedroom where last night.
Always Ask Your Dad ^.^
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
*cough* off topic discussion *cough*
3 stars sucks
i want my 5 stars back!
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
Moved to Off-Topic Discussion.
--------------------
Alex "Maximane" De Line
- MMORPG.COM Staff -
We didn't create more turmoil in Nam', we just got 50,000 soldiers dead and killed Thousands of Congs. Noone was left to protest. As for Bush, the republic age is over and I am more interested in the economy. Go Kerry.
"Whoever controls the media controls the mind..-'Jim Morrison"
"When decorum is repression, the only dignity free men have is to speak out." ~Abbie Hoffman
As far as elections go, i don't vote because then I can't be held responsible for allowing an "idiot" to run the country.
To the Topic, I think we need to finish what we started and get out asap.
- Malkavian
"When you find yourself falling into madness... Dive." - Malkavian Proverb
- MMORPG.COM Staff -
Forum Stalker
Malkavian@mmorpg.com
"When you find yourself sinking into Madness, dive"
I find the comparisons between Iraq and Vietnam rather funny. If Vietnam had gone along the same timeline that Iraq has, there would be no arguments about Kerry recieving purple hearts for injuries which weren't much more than scratches, or whether or not he threw those medals over the fence in a protest in DC. There would also not be any complaints about Bush serving in the national guard, or whether or not he served in Alabama durring that time.
The first major offensive attack by the US in Vietnam occured on November 14, 1965 in the IaDrang Valley (see We Were Soldiers, great movie). Using the Iraq time line, the North Vietnamese government would have fallen on December 4, 1965. And by early 1967, there would be the beginings of a democratic government in Vietnam (probably sooner due to South Vietnam already being on the US's side).
Basically, any comparisons between Iraq and Vietnam are a joke.
--------------------------------------------
33.333333333333336% of me is a huge nerd! How about you?
--------------------------------------------
I'm a libertarian (if you dont know what it means, think republican conservative, libertarian ultra-conservative) and so thus i'm definitely favorite towards the republican party. And reason being because I think the democratic party is foolish, and their wishes are 100% opposite of what the forefathers would of wanted.
Now that i've explained myself, I think the war in Iraq was stupid, if they wanted to take down Saddam Hussein, they should of done it in the gulf war. They had reason to do it then, they were defending an ally and they would of not been in the wrong. But then they give reason for the war in iraq this BS about WMD and other sorts. Which never proved so.
Which has now turned into a big mess. They wiped up the Iraqi forces, but overall they were just like shock troops, just bait, and now that they're lured they'll repeatedly takeing pop shots at them. Overall I believe the people were better out under the rule of Saddam Hussein; even though he was a power hungry dictator, the Iraqi people are completely different then westerners, and I think would not do well with a democratic government. As well, compared to the Iraqi soldiers the U.S. killed, which I would assume nears 100,000,(genocide anybody?) I just think that the war was folly, and everyone would of been better off without it.
Saddam Hussein was an evil man no doubt, but how hippocritical is it of america to go and say who is evil, who can do what, etc. when they sure have their own problems to get rid of.
As for Bush vs Kerry, I dont agree with some things Bush has done, and he's a huge spender, and not the sharpest tool in the shed. But I'd vote for him, why? Because he's still the better of two people; overall Kerry's a corrupt man. Bush just isnt the smartest man.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
i find it quite funny why people say bush sucks but yet cant bring any points with one bit of validity to them. sure the man cant spell but he has made a few good decisions.
as far as kerry i was hoping for a better democratic canidate but i guess it up to him,if he can ever stop contridicting himself..............
(1) Wow, you mean EVERY intelligence agency in the free world were wrong? And UNSCOM too?
(2) You just eliminated any credibility you hoped you had.
(3) What's that you've been smoking? You should sell it and make a killing.
(4) Then it's very obvious that you should stick to gaming and leave the heavy lifting to adults because you sure don't have a grasp of what is really going on.
(5) yeah so was hitler. We should have just left him alone. After all who are we to judge? Look at all the nazis we killed. I bet the Germans, the French, Poles and Jews were all better off under him....right?
With the above said, has anyone ever stopped to think about the following?
The United States has been "Involved" in every major War since WW1 to an extent greater than any other Nation. More than half of those circumstances did not even concern United States Soil, yet "we" as American's were either asked, or assumed responsibility to lend assistance.
Have we ever been "Thanked" for our services?
- Malkavian
"When you find yourself falling into madness... Dive." - Malkavian Proverb
- MMORPG.COM Staff -
Forum Stalker
Malkavian@mmorpg.com
"When you find yourself sinking into Madness, dive"
"(1) Wow, you mean EVERY intelligence agency in the free world were wrong? And UNSCOM too?"
Did they find any WMD's? No, so obviously ya, they were wrong.
"(2) You just eliminated any credibility you hoped you had."
I dont give a rats crap about any "credibility" you think I have, I'm stating my opinions, and just because you dont agree with them, doesnt make me lose my credibility.
But, I guess you'd prefer the life of either being blown up by a car bomb, or shot out from afar, always risking your life everytime you go out your front door then just being under a tyrranous dictator.
"(3) What's that you've been smoking? You should sell it and make a killing."
You must be the one smoking something, if you knew anything about the Iraqi casualties, you'd know that it ranges around 100K.
"(4) Then it's very obvious that you should stick to gaming and leave the heavy lifting to adults because you sure don't have a grasp of what is really going on."
Whaa.....Grow up man. You're the one that most likely doesnt have a grasp, and thinks everything this government does is morally right, and always the right thing to do. Blind patriotism is foolish, and if everyone had it like you, then this country would of never been founded.
Near 100K Iraqi's dead, U.S. Soldiers dieing frequently, the cost for it going into the trillions. Most likely no chance of actually turning Iraq into a fairly safe nation....Ya, thats right, it was the right thing to do, and you especially think so, because of your almighty wisdom and amusingly supposed knowledge of what is going on in the world.
"(5) yeah so was hitler. We should have just left him alone. After all who are we to judge? Look at all the nazis we killed. I bet the Germans, the French, Poles and Jews were all better off under him....right?"
Lets see.....Hitler wanted world domination. Saddam Hussein was a tyrant over his own nation. If we're comparing all the dictators, why havent we gone over and try to rule cuba, or korea. Or who the crap knows what. When our governments as corrupt as a poisoned apple, who are we to go over and say, you're bad, you must go down.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
There was no WMD in Iraq? There were no terrorist connections in Iraq? The war was unjust?
http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=3757
(1) They did find reference strains, clandestine labs and a centrifuge buried in a scientist's back yard. But I guess that was for a high school project right? Oh and I hear that it is a common practice over there to have pesticides buried in a camo hole in the ground with NBC suits and atropine injectors. Oh I know pesticides are just a weak nerve agent that is sometimes used as one component to a binary WMD.
Tell you what. I'll bury a 5 lb sack of anthrax in California (enough to wipe out a whole city) and give you a year to find it. Oh and I'll hire a few hit squads to harass you the whole time. Then when you don't find it we'll just claim it was never there.
(2) Yeah I see your point. It would be better to have rape rooms, torture, feed people to hungry animals for entertainment, dip them in acid, throw them off buildings, cut out their tongues for saying something about your dictator of choice, fill up mass graves, but yeah i guess some short term turmoil would be by far worse. I'll put you in the pacifist camp. We can do the same things we did over the last 25-30 years which gave us 9-11.
(3) I wonder how many we saved from all of the above?
(4)"You're the one that most likely doesn't have a grasp, and thinks everything this government does is morally right"
Oh and I'm sure you have something to back that up.
"Most likely no chance of actually turning Iraq into a fairly safe nation"
Based on??
"Ya, thats right, it was the right thing to do, and you especially think so, because of your almighty wisdom and amusingly supposed knowledge of what is going on in the world."
Wow want some cheese with that whine?
(5)"Saddam Hussein was a tyrant over his own nation."
Yeah I guess if you call Kuwait and Iran 'his own nation'.
"If we're comparing all the dictators, why haven't we gone over and try to rule Cuba, or Korea."
I sure you were paying attention and just forgot the fact that we were trying to prevent Iraq from becoming another North Korea. Or do you think a group hug would have worked better?
Gotta love how so many people just want to sit back and watch the world fall apart.
Somebody has to do something sometime. The US, under George Bush's direction, has finally stepped up. Now, it is going to take a while, but the US has finally stepped up to take a shot.
You can't expect the mess in Iraq to be cleaned up in one year. It is going to take many years. That is just how it works. There is no miraculous way to fix a country as screwed up as Iraq was/is right now. It is going to take time/effort/money/lives/etc.
But you know what? We gotta start somewhere.
"You can't expect the mess in Iraq to be cleaned up in one year"
Everybody forgets how long it took to get Germany and Japan put back together.
I'm a zealous republican and thus I don't like Kerry but...It's for good reason!! Kerry is a moron who doesn't know how to behave on his own without his lawyers. You want to know why I say this? Well lets see... Kerry was snowboarding recently. Kerry ran into a bodyguard standing in the snow (lol). Kerry unnecessarily commented that (I quote) "That son of a bitch cut me off". That's an intelligent thing to say there Kerry.
Of course it would be stupid to say Kerry says dumb things compared to Bush's grammar skills. Bush has poor sentence structure. He says stupid things. But Kerry says politically stupid things. You decide which one is worse.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
So, since the people are too scared to ask for help, then screw 'em. Right?!?! They don't ask for help, we don't provide it?!?!
There are quite a few places in the world that are totally screwed up right now. Quite a few that need someone to step in and lend a hand. There are third world nations where Guerilla's are terrorizing the entire nation. Hacking people to pieces, raping and mutilating women and children, etc... Tyrants terrorizing their own people, etc...
These people need help, they do not have the chance to ask for help. What the world needs is a large multi-national force that can step in and give this aid. But there are just too many pansy nations out there that want to sit back and do nothing. *cough* the French *cough*.
If other nations won't help, then by god, I am fine with the USA standing up and lending that hand. Damn to the rest of the nations who believe themselves civilized. If they were civilized, they would not sit back and watch this crap happen.
It was recently propsed by a US diplomat that this multi-national force should exist. We will see in the next year or so if anything comes of it. But until then, the US will have to go it alone or with the few true friends of the planet there are.
So, since the people are too scared to ask for help, then screw 'em. Right?!?!
I believe I said, "Right now I'm just not sure which choice would be the right one." True, the world is one messed up jumble of conflicting crap, but a nation should look out for its own affairs. If people aren't willing to risk their lives (as did colonial Americans) for change within their nation then I don't believe they deserve that change. I'm not against the USA helping other nations but we should at least wait for a nation to come asking us for help before we barge in with our tanks and guns blazing in the name of freedom, and then occupy that country for months when 50% of its population is against our occupation. People, to my knowledge, are suffering and dying all over the world. Is it up to the USA to try to save every one of those people in the world? Truly a noble cause, but by what means? and to what end? Right now, as expected in war, there have been Iraqi brutalizations by British and (I believe) US troops. Are all the civilian casualties, and damage inflicted upon Iraq worth the reward of their freedom? Quite possibly. I'm just not sure on the general subject. Look at Korea. We moved in with our troops and killed a bunch of civilians, enemy soldiers as well, destroyed villages and whatever else. Where did it get us in the end? Back where we started, except there was more devastation than had previously been done. Here, we were acting as a world police force.
What the world needs is a large multi-national force that can step in and give this aid.
I think the UN fits this basic description.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Uhhm....Right....one world police force....yep....that's sure the answer. Lets dictate the whole world, because we sure are the pinnacle of righteousness and morality.
This nation was not meant to be a policing government. The nation was set up that the states had ultimate power, and the federal government protected and served the people, building an army, and militia's, as well as makeing sure to open trade routes.
We cant even keep our own people in control; our own country is in an unofficial civil war, not to mention the government is a corrupt consuming beast that the more power it is given, the more it is corrupted.
Did you know a large amount of Iraqi's feel that the U.S. is not a liberating force, but a occupation force? And that they are no better off then when Saddam Hussein was in power.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
"In short, if Saddam hadn't killed off so many of his own people and wasn't the tyrant he was then I'd be against us being in Iraq."
Me too. But I would be all for being OVER Iraq laying down some serious high explosives in what would be called Desert Storm II: The return of the daisy cutter. And that would have taken place back in 1992 after the attempted assassination of Bush 41.
"Right now I'm just not sure which choice would be the right one."
I have absolutely no doubts whatsoever. 9-11 changed everything.
"The U.S.A. should probably have taken a policy of political isolation from the rest of the world."
That is exactly what was done since the Gulf War and it gave us nothing but the now famed 'Oil for payola program' and more terrorism.
"When it involves itself in the affairs of other nations, changing their governments (for example) it begins to act more as an empire"
That is no more true today than it was during WWII.
"Foreign countries should be able to deal with their own problems and not have a separate nation come into their country and take over."
In a perfect world I would agree. But the world is not perfect and it has plenty of bad actors that must be dealt with.
" If the people of Iraq had wanted to overthrow Saddam enough they would have started a civil war and perhaps asked for our help."
Therein lies the problem. After the Gulf War the shia began to rise up and we sat and watched them get slaughtered. Nothing happened in Iraq without Saddam knowing it.
Looking at the treatment of prisoners by the USA army and now possibly the British army I am of the full conclusion that we are no better then Saddam .
Whats worse is I think they rather be tortured by their own countrymen then by outsider (I know I would).
" I am of the full conclusion that we are no better then Saddam"
Surely you don't honestly believe that. I would take humiliation to mutilation any day. There is a vast difference between showing one's privates and the removal or mutilation thereof. So let's be clear, they were humiliated not tortured.