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Saddam vs. Bush
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So you have not heard of the guy who was hooded and had his jaw broken,then tossed out of a moving vechile yet have you ?
Whats that humiliation ?
Jesus, Finwe is full of insight!!!! (NO sarcasm intended, I'm dead serious)
What he says is right people. Didn't you see that poll they recently did in Iraq? The majority said though they don't like the "occupation forces", BUT they think they're better off than when Saddam was Da Chief.
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The difference is, this was done by a few individuals, that when caught, will be punished.
Saddam and his people were doing it, and it was legal...
How can anybody believe that sitting back and watching the world fall apart around you is a good idea? Eventually, the shit that is happening will spill over the borders of the screwed up countries and start to pour out into the good ones. When that happens, it will be a lot harder to fix the problem.
And sure, the UN was meant to be a Multi-National Peace kEeping force, but all they do is sit back and watch. They are doing nothing. Hell, Saddam was bltantly breaking the rules that the UN had put in place, and the UN did nothing.
The time of reckoning will soon be here. One side is going to be proven right or wrong. One of two things is going to happen. Either Bush will get re-elected and we will continue this path, and we will see what comes of it. Or, Kerry wins (God help us, NOOOO!!!!) and he wimps out, pulls our troops out and we will see how f'd up that part of the world gets.
I can't believe how poorly some people are informed by the media of their country. The war in iraq is a bad thing for the world, america is loosing its soft power. (soft power is to be able to make countrys wanna follow your example and take over some of its culture).
The war in iraq is totally unjustified, there are no weapons of mass destruction, and the soldiers of saddam are nothing more then some farmers with guns (that doesn't mean they can't kill you of course). Don't believe stuff you hear about that they are there somewhere because if Saddam was such a tyrant why hasn't he used them. Saddam had more power during the first gulf war then he had now, Iraq has been economically boycotted for more then 10 years by the western world and the common people were the victims of that.
another reason is that america went alone in this war without that the United Nations agreed, if you don't listen to it then what's the point of it. America santions countrys who doesn't respect the UN but doesn't give a f*ck about the UN itself, what an example is that? speaking of tyrants, in Israel there is an extreme right governement in charge at the moment who doesn't respect the human rights and Amercia supports this, and every UN meeting that wanna say something about it, America blocks it off by using their veto. (Democrats and Republicans alike so I don't care about Bush or Kerry but democrats listen more to other countrys). they went alone to Iraq and now expect from the rest of the world to give money to rebuild something the rest didn't wanted to be destroyed. In amercian media some european countrys are being kind of bullied but the media just forget what caused it. the task of the media is to try to give an objective look at what happens in the world and not follow the governement out fear of being punished for saying the truth. we get to see dead iraqi but no dead american as we should forget that already more then 600 died since Iraq was conquered.
Saddams regime wasn't acceptable, but at least there was a seperation between state and religion which in my opinion is very important. but Bush only went for saddam and not other tyrants because of safekeeping the precious oil there so they can control it. There are plenty of other tyrants in the world and you don't see american troops their. In congo (that's in africa) there are 4 million people killed without america even reacted because there is nothing of much value, so can you imagine how they feel.
And now in Falujah there is a general of saddams old regime back in charge of the city so then what's the difference. People in Iraq say they are better off because the majority of the population wasn't having any problems with their leader. and there was barely any crime or rapes, at the moment a lot of women have already been raped which angers the population because they blamethe americans.
Amnesty international is already getting messages of ill-treated and as good as tortured Iraqis all year long but now the first images are coming out. These pictures remind me of pictures i have seen from concetration camps from the second world war. And those are not individual things, what about the taliban that are being captured and no one barely knows what is happening their in Guantanamo (i forgot how it is spelled) except that a lot of them are getting killed strangely, they call it suicide but how can you kill yourself in a more then maximum security prison.
If americans were to be holded captured like this, the world would be on fire.
I like to bring up that he who plays with fire have to sit on the burns but then i think of the soldeirs who have nothing to do with it and are again the victim of a republican policy.
excuse me for some grammar/language mistakes but english is not my native language
One day all will die, surely you but never I.
"One day all will die, surely you but never I." Wheel of Time
The difference is, this was done by a few individuals, that when caught, will be punished.
Saddam and his people were doing it, and it was legal...
How can anybody believe that sitting back and watching the world fall apart around you is a good idea? Eventually, the shit that is happening will spill over the borders of the screwed up countries and start to pour out into the good ones. When that happens, it will be a lot harder to fix the problem.
And sure, the UN was meant to be a Multi-National Peace kEeping force, but all they do is sit back and watch. They are doing nothing. Hell, Saddam was bltantly breaking the rules that the UN had put in place, and the UN did nothing.
The time of reckoning will soon be here. One side is going to be proven right or wrong. One of two things is going to happen. Either Bush will get re-elected and we will continue this path, and we will see what comes of it. Or, Kerry wins (God help us, NOOOO!!!!) and he wimps out, pulls our troops out and we will see how f'd up that part of the world gets.
Erm there is no evidence to say it is either a few or a general attitude.
Also why out of a sudden is the world falling apart?Because of sept 11.Well for your information countires have been battling terrorism for many years but only when sept 11th happens the world is falling apart.
USA critised the russians for checynha saying it was wrong to invade it.USA saw no problem with the face chechyna terrorist were bombing moscow.Also chechnya is part of RUSSIA.So they were even handling an internal problem not invading a second country at that.
IRA for years having been bombing UK and I remember a friend's father getting blown up by a car bomb way back in 1980s.
The world has had terrorism for years and did not start in sept 11th.So sorry if the world is falling apart it been falling apart for many years not 2 years.
As for saddam breaking regulations excuse me for speaking if we are talking about breaking UN regulations look at Isreal!They broken so many no one bothers to count how many anymore.So if tomorrow China or Russia says lets invade Isreal for breaking UN charters would USA sit back and say thats fair?No!
As far as Tony Blair told us he was taking us to war to stop weapons of mass destruction and he has yet to find a single one.I dunno why Bush took USA to war but this is why Blair took UK to war.
Poorly informed?? I don't know how anyone can say that? But then again, there are countries out there who do not have much television and radio capabvilities...
We have already found tons of a pesticide buried at many military sites along with NBC (Hazardous) suits. Why does the military need pesticides in that quantity or hazardous suits? Because that pesticide is a major ingredient in many Chemical and Biological weapons..
The UN is full of a bunch of pansy countries who don't want to help the world. Heck, some of them can't help themseleves. Look how easily the French and Spanish are bullied. The UN wouldn't do anything. They laid down rules for Saddam, and he broke them. The UN did notjhing about it.
What does seeing the dead matter? It is the numbers that matter. War is hell, that is true. That is all that proves. If you don't want your chicken shit country to help, so be it. We are willing to do it alone if we have to. What has your country done for the world lately??
If it was all about the oil... Then why is it so FRICKING expensive here ion the states still? If it was about the oil, we would have oil here.
And for the Congo... Don't worry, they will get their turn. We can't be everywhere at once because there are too many chicken shit countries who have the capability but don't want to help.
Blah, blah, blah... proof? Just because the General used to work for Saddam, doesn't make him a bad guy. He had to do a job out of fear just like many others. Why do you think many Iraqi's just gave up during the war phase. They were there out of fear of their government. As soon as we rool up and they know they are safe, they give up. There are bad people and good people on each side. This general may have been one of the good ones. What do YOU know about him specifically???
But, these acts are not sanctioned by the governement. Perpetrators of these crimes will be found and punished. Under Saddam, it was the law that these things were done, and it was OK in the eyes of the government. Have you noot seen the videos of this stuff. Iraqi police throwing people from the roof's of 2 story buildings. Then rushing down and picking them up and beating them, with their legs all jacked in crazy positions from the damage, screaming in pain or passed out... And this was RIGHT under Saddam, no wrong.
Need proof here... Not hard to kill yourself... Youjust have to want to. The Taliban are enemy combatants. Prisoners if you will.
Can't be done, sorry. And if it is happening to you and you don't want it to. Give us a call, we would help you your country too.
We aren't sitting on it. We are sitting around it roasting marshmallows and hotdogs. Sure, there are poeple dying. Many American Soldiers. And you know what... That is a sacrifice, we the poeple o the US are willing to make. Instead of bashing us, why don't you thank us. Were we invaded by Hitler, no. But we came and helped Europe. And when some evil tyrant decides to invade your country, we will come and help you too. No matter how badly you bad mouth us, we will still be here when you need help. How is that for being un-biased and forgiving as hell?
Don't worry about it. As long as we understand each other, we can communicate.
And if my death or my daughters death comes while defending you and your country, so be it. Your welcome.
Peace Friend.
If it was all about the oil... Then why is it so FRICKING expensive here ion the states still? If it was about the oil, we would have oil here.
And for the Congo... Don't worry, they will get their turn. We can't be everywhere at once because there are too many chicken shit countries who have the capability but don't want to help"
You know how expensive the war in Iraq is? That's most likely where all the oil is going to, true gas should be down, but it goes up everytime you walk out the door.
As for your statement for Congo....Hrm....I can see it out, The United Imperialistic states of america!
"Blah, blah, blah... proof? Just because the General used to work for Saddam, doesn't make him a bad guy. He had to do a job out of fear just like many others. Why do you think many Iraqi's just gave up during the war phase. They were there out of fear of their government. As soon as we rool up and they know they are safe, they give up. There are bad people and good people on each side. This general may have been one of the good ones. What do YOU know about him specifically???"
If so many Iraqi's gave up during the war phase....Then how did so many die?
I believe the foreign affairs minister was a decent guy as well (I believe it was the foreign affairs) but to my knowledge he's still in jail.
"But, these acts are not sanctioned by the governement. Perpetrators of these crimes will be found and punished. Under Saddam, it was the law that these things were done, and it was OK in the eyes of the government. Have you noot seen the videos of this stuff. Iraqi police throwing people from the roof's of 2 story buildings. Then rushing down and picking them up and beating them, with their legs all jacked in crazy positions from the damage, screaming in pain or passed out... And this was RIGHT under Saddam, no wrong."
You think that was bad, have you ever seen those pictures of babies that were partial birth aborted? You think broken bones and bloody bodies is bad, you'll be puking when you see that. Call me crazy, I just find the thought of sucking out a babies brains with a tube more disturbing, and disgusting then a grown man being beat up and bones broken, even killed.
"
Need proof here... Not hard to kill yourself... Youjust have to want to. The Taliban are enemy combatants. Prisoners if you will."
Now unless the guards gave them some rope, ya it would be hard to kill yourself in a high security prison. You can use things like rope or sheets to strangle yourself, other then that, I dont think banging your head against a wall could kill you.
"We aren't sitting on it. We are sitting around it roasting marshmallows and hotdogs. Sure, there are poeple dying. Many American Soldiers. And you know what... That is a sacrifice, we the poeple o the US are willing to make. Instead of bashing us, why don't you thank us. Were we invaded by Hitler, no. But we came and helped Europe. And when some evil tyrant decides to invade your country, we will come and help you too. No matter how badly you bad mouth us, we will still be here when you need help. How is that for being un-biased and forgiving as hell?"
Saddam hussein wasnt hitler, saddam hussein was a power hungry thug. Hitler was a madman that wanted to rule the world. To have a comparison is foolish, and giving saddam hussein much more power then he actually has.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
I mean that you have a very amercian look at things like i can see from your replies.
the UN is founded to prevent that there will be one superpower that will do what it wants, and i would like to know what you mean with how the french are being bullied? the spanish troops left the country which i think is justified because more then 70-80 % of spains population wasn't in favor for a war adn didn't want to sent troops, and then there is a new prime minister who had promised that if he ws to be elected he would bring the troops back. 11 march (7 bomattacks on train stations) was only another factor to speed things up a bit in spain and get their sons back home.
And i don't want to hurt your feelings but Amercia can't handle Iraq alone: they went in but it is to large to handle with only 120,000 troops. The countrys that didn't approve of the war are now being torn because we didn't choose for this war so we shouldn't help out but only the common soldiers are dying adn not those who snet them there.
The oil is so expensive there because Bush still haven't got fully control of the oil, there is still a lot of danger example since the kidnapping of a lot of foreigners lately and the death of almost a 100 soldiers this month.
It is not to see the death that is important, at the moment you aren't allowed to publish fotos of dead amercians because it can decrease someone's (Bush and his Iraq policy) popularity and that can't happen because he wants to be re-elected.
"And for the Congo... Don't worry, they will get their turn. We can't be everywhere at once because there are too many chicken shit countries who have the capability but don't want to help." I can't believe you say that, it happened some years ago now it is to late, america is one of the only countrys at the moment that has a large enough army to do stuff like that. If there ever will be a truly united europe perhaps then there will be another but i doubt it because of the seperation between some countries.
Those Iraqi soldiers gave up because they were no mach in the open field, they still had the same weapons since the first gulf war. Now however there are fights in the citys and that is much miore dangerous because they all look a like and you can barely see who shot or will shoot at you. that is why some soldiers are freaking out and killing some innocents (not on purpose i think).
How will it be punished, american governement refused to sign to convention of geneva (i don't really know how you write that in english), they did this because american soldiers couldn't be sued for crimes against humanity in the international court in Den Haag. why don't you wanna sign something like that, in my eyes that means you are going to do it or planning to anyway.
no that's just the point, the taliban are no prisonners they have no status so that way no one can see them or even speak to them, they are just put away without that anyone knows what is happening there, that's something that normally only happens in tyrannic states.
Thank you for what? A war that no one wanted? You say we the people but half of your great nation doesn't want to be there to fight and i don't think that one of your family members is there or you wouldn't say something like that (i think!). America only looks at it's national intrests and not at other countries, they can do that becasue they are at the moment the only real superpower in the world but that ain't great for reltionships.
read some history books please and not only amercian history, Amercia came to help europe because they feared that hitler would win and then it would have a great and dangerous person on the other side of the ocean that's why they waited for a few years. And also not forget you were attacked by Japan which was also in a kind of alliance with Hitler.
Pls don't take offence of this "One day all will die, surely you but never I." because that is my sig so it will appear under everything i write so it has actually nothing to do with text, sorry if you thaught (i mean the past of think
)so.
One day all will die, surely you but never I.
"One day all will die, surely you but never I." Wheel of Time
"So you have not heard of the guy who was hooded and had his jaw broken,then tossed out of a moving vechile yet have you ?"
Just read about it now. Was out planting trees all day. But I'm going to wait before I pass judgment. There are some that have suggested that the photos may have been doctored. Time will tell.
1) Oil prices are high because the original plan was to get the oil pumping as soon as saddam fell.Many including the British government thought after Saddam was gone there would be peace.Well like most things in life it did not go according to plan.Heck even before Saddam was booted out the british army was already fixing the pipelines and pumping before it got blown up again.
2)Funny you should mention chicken shit countries.Also funny how the USA have kept silent about china a nuclear power and good trade buisness partner of the USA.During the war in chehcnya the USA was screaming for all who wants to hear how unjust the war there was and the Russians are returning to their old ways.A public warning for the USA to shut up was all that was needed .If the Russians were so wrong why not invade them.Oh maybe the fact that just 4 of the Russian's typhoon class subs carry enough nuclear warheads to devast the entire east and west coast of the USA was a strong reason.
So actually it seems easy to bully the small guys and back off the ones that can actually pack a punch.
3)This statement was brought up before about USA helping europe.Fact is everyone helped everyone in WW2 because that was the only way we could have won.For your information UK entered WW2 without even been attacked.We were allies with poland and had a agreement and we honored it.
We don't go around saying we only entered the war because we wanted to help others and would have been safe if we did not.We knew Hitler and his axis allies would not stop there and would invade us eventually.The russians made the mistake of thinking Hitler would never invade and did get invaded.Japan attacked pearl harbour and they were part of the axis.So really entering the war was a smart move and had little to do with honor.If UK and Russia fell ,do you think Hitler and the axis would not invade the USA?I think we know they will.
So is it not easier to fight the axis with the Russians and UK ,then wait to fight them alone.So there is no one to thank here.We helped each other period.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Many persons are assuming that the possible triangle china-india-russia will be the next superpower in the world, they have a very large population, a nuclear power and at the moment a developping economy so they are very slowly catching up to our economic standards.
and another proof, that america doesn't attack some real dangerous tyrants is north-korea. There is a very tyrannic governement that doesn't respect the human rights and america does nothing because nort-korea has nuclear weapons and (perhaps) no real important resources like oil.
One day all will die, surely you but never I.
"One day all will die, surely you but never I." Wheel of Time
"and another proof, that america doesn't attack some real dangerous tyrants is north-Korea."
Yeah good example. Question: How many artillery pieces does North Korea have pointed at Seoul South Korea?
And should hostilities break out, how long would Seoul be standing?
"There is a very tyrannic governement that doesn't respect the human rights and america does nothing because nort-korea has nuclear weapons and (perhaps) no real important resources like oil.
Oh another good point. Is this why we lost 10's of thousands of people there some 50 years ago? Moreover, would this be the reason we've had some 40,000 military personnel there for the last 50 years?
One other question. Are these the ideas you get from being so 'informed' from the press in your country?
Regus
"The war in iraq is a bad thing for the world"
That depends on what world you live in. Or should I say what planet you live on.
"The war in iraq is totally unjustified,"
Only if you ignore the 17 UN resolutions.
"there are no weapons of mass destruction"
The jury is still out. Stay tuned.
"and the soldiers of saddam are nothing more then some farmers with guns "
Hmmm... ya think maybe you should ask the Kuwaitis before you drift off into dream land again?
"Don't believe stuff you hear about that they are there somewhere because if Saddam was such a tyrant why hasn't he used them"
Ooops...guess I'm too late. Ask the Iranians and the Kurds.
"another reason is that america went alone in this war without that the United Nations agreed"
I know that this is a dumb question, but did you by chance happen to read UN resolution 1441?
"America santions countrys who doesn't respect the UN but doesn't give a f*ck about the UN itself,"
Oh wow, tell me Mr/Mrs euro, how much money does your little Utopia spend for funding the UN?
This is too rich...
Actually most likely just China, it'll probably surpass America in the next 10 years. But as hercules stated it, he almost made it sound like they should be watched on and controlled.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Regus
"Amnesty international is already getting messages of ill-treated and --->as good as<--- tortured Iraqis "
And your statement is -->as good as<-- the gum stuck on the bottom of my shoe. Tell me, have you seen any protests from this "Amnesty International" about the suicide bombings? Or how about the insurgents hiding behind civilians? Hiding in schools? Hospitals? Mosques? Didn't think so.
Galoot: i used as good as because there is still no real proof but rumors and some fotos, a foto doesn't mean a thing because you have to look at the context. Amnesty International also states very clearly that suicide bombing is a terrorist act
iraq ignored 17 UN reolutions but Israel already a lot more ( i thaught around 60 but that can be wrong) and there are never real resolutions that convicts Irael because america blocks them off so don't use that as proof to justifie an attack, and i am not contra Israel because suicide attacks are the worst evil there is, they have all the right to kill the people who are responsable for them but not the right to blame an entire population and keep them in camps.
The armys of iraq were powerful at the time of the first Gulf War and they also used the weapons of massdestruction then but that's more then 10 years ago.
yeah there was resolution 1441 but at that time Iraq was cooperating but then Amercia and UK deicded to attack it without approval of the UN so if they do that thenj what's the purpose of the UN, this way you just make clear that the little countries mean nothing and that hurts some feelings. But if you are that powerful doesn't mean to give you the right to do what you want, ever heard of a democracy? that means you listen to others and not only yourself.
America is the biggest funder of the Un but that's is quite logical if you ask me because when you are the greatest that brings along that you also pays the most? Because it is not really fair (in my eyes) that a small country gives as much as a nation that is like a billion times bigger.
I really like the debat atmosphere here, not to soft but not insulting (i hope) either
A side note, Iran is't a nice country either, and Iraq invaded Iran out of fear of the religious leadership there and he feared the religious leaders would gain more power in his country. Most of the weapons of massdestruction from Iraq came from Amercia and the rest of the western world
One day all will die, surely you but never I.
"One day all will die, surely you but never I." Wheel of Time
"iraq ignored 17 UN resolutions but Israel already a lot more ( i thaught around 60 but that can be wrong) "
Careful, out of those 'around 60' UN resolutions, how many condemn the intentional targeting and killing of the Israeli civilians? (see suicide bombings)
"The armys of iraq were powerful at the time of the first Gulf War and they also used the weapons of massdestruction then but that's more then 10 years ago."
So Saddam being the nice guy he is just got rid of them? And no there has been some found well after 10 years ago. How can people be so naive?
"yeah there was resolution 1441 but at that time Iraq was cooperating"
Ummmm.. no. As always they made it appear as though they were. Even Hans Blix said that is was lacking. AND Hans himself said that he didn't want to be the one 'responsible' for causing a war. So he buried info about drones, Al Masood (SP) missiles ect in his report. And Remember they DID find chemical warhead missiles (120mm I believe) that they just... ooops... forgot they had.
"without approval of the UN "
Reread 1441 and all of those that lead upto it. Then see the cease fire agreement that began it all and if you want to be intellectually honest, you'll see that we could have LEGALLY crushed Iraq over 10 years ago.
"America is the biggest funder of the Un but that's is quite logical if you ask me because when you are the greatest that brings along that you also pays the most?"
Utter BS. We have only one vote. By your logic and in "fairness" we should then have more than one.
"Most of the weapons of massdestruction from Iraq came from Amercia and the rest of the western world"
Give me a break. Iraq was a Soviet client state and with it came Soviet hardware and technology. Including WMD, not only Soviet WMD's but also the rockets, missiles and artillery shells to deliver them.
Have you noticed the AK-47's? SCUD missiles? MIG aircraft? Soviet anti-aircraft missiles? RPG's? ect ect ect.
"iraq ignored 17 UN reolutions but Israel already a lot more "
Now stop and think about that moral equivalence a moment. Israel is trying to protect her citizens from the frequent suicide bombings that take place in restaurants, busses and anywhere else the 'death cult' can inflict death and destruction.
Now go back a few decades and just try and think what started it all. Who attacked whom? Was is French made Israeli aircraft that flew into Egypt or Syria? Nope. Was it Israeli tank columns that went into Egypt or Syria? Nope. It was Egypt and Syria that attacked Israel.
yes that's perhaps true that you protect your people but that doesn't give you the right to treat an entire people badly and denying them their rights, UN said several times that Israel may not build anymore settlements but they keep doing it on terain that wasn't theirs anymore but of the palestini. And that just one example of how they treat the palestini, but i am not saying that that gives the right for some of the palestini to bomb innocents like people who eat in a restaurant or are going out.
extremisme is a bad thing for both sides and in general for the entire world
and iraq has bought weapons from almost every country, at a certain time they were buying from 24 or 27 different nations (i forgot the exact number), i don't make that up, we saw it in our history class at university.
One day all will die, surely you but never I.
"One day all will die, surely you but never I." Wheel of Time
yes Egypt and Syria attacked but they did this because the english gave a country that wasn't theirs to give and forgot an entire population that lived their and the Israeli seized the power after the english left the country. The world did nothing because of the holocaust which at that time i can fully understand.
Syria and egypt had/have a lot of Palestini immigrants that have fled their former country and they were sick and tired of them and used that as an excuse to attack.
One day all will die, surely you but never I.
"One day all will die, surely you but never I." Wheel of Time
"But if you are that powerful doesn't mean to give you the right to do what you want, ever heard of a democracy?"
Oh boy oh boy oh boy. We have a right to defend ourselves contrary to what pacifists might say. Democracy? Just how did you happen to acquire it and when? When was the last time you actually stood up to defend it? No I don't mean going around endlessly mouthing words but spending blood to do so.
"yes Egypt and Syria attacked but they did this because the english gave a country that wasn't theirs to give "
Via a UN Resolution. The very "international body" that you worship. So what's it going to be? UN or no UN? Moreover, you know as well as I do that this is a deep seated hatred that has been going on for thousands of years. And it was amplified during WWII thanks to Hitler as many arab states shared the same hatred.
A final question. Where did jews come from originally? South America?