Originally posted by treysmooth if you wanna know why most of us that enjoy the game don't bother to post over here any more its simple, these boards have such a negative nature now, that why bother. Why should I waste my time making a post just to have it flamed to death by people that in many cases haven't played since month one?
For the last year I've posted on this site frequently but frankly I'm tired of the constant barrage of combative people that spend all their time trying to discredit a game and try to keep everyone away from it.
The biggest problem with these forums is the lack of real information that you can get from the forums.
That my friend is the main problem with the Vanguard forums here, someone post that the game is improving and he is instantly called a shill or a SOE employee or Brad in disguise its laughable.
I respect the opinions of those that respect mine, but there in lies the problem, there is no respect from many of those that hate the game and yes they often will blatantly lie about things. If you haven't played since the first month then how do you know it isn't improving. When someone says the game is crap that is opinion but if I say the game is pretty good I'm flamed and basically told that I'm wrong and yes I have been told that I'm lying to myself and couldn't be having fun.
To each his or her own
Regards
Trey
First, I actually did not open this Topic because I thought it was another "flame" Topic by a "troll" who was going to state that people currently playing the game are misleading; that is how bad it is that I will not even open some Topics.
Second, Trey, you make one of the most well reasoned and clearly articulated posts I have read since joining here. I completely agree with you that people that currently play this game "will not bother" to post here. Reasonable people will not subject themselves to personal attacks, flaming, and trolling simply because they play (and might enjoy) the game.
Third, I consider it being "Sane in an Insane Place" when you are trying to discuss the progress the game has made but you are deliberately attacked by willful and wanton trollers/flamers. I am so accustomed to it, and I have so many blocked, that is does not even really impact me anymore. I have started to use other forums and maybe visit here once or twice a day as opposed to multiple times each day.
Last, my theory is that the flaming and trolling has a lot less to do with the game (Vanguard, SWG, et al.) than it does with people's very real complex personal issues. The anger is obviously misdirected, and sometimes the target of their anger are people that currently play the game and try to talk about improvements and enhancements.
In conclusion, to sound like "them," I PREDICTED THIS (rofl). I predicted that people that currently play the game will gradually not bother to use MMORPG and we are witnessing that. The incredible value of MMORPG as a resource for "information" has become a sewer of flaming and trolling that is simply abnormal. In fact, I was not even going to bother visiting MMORPG today, and I am gradually getting out of the habit of doing it. I wish that were not necessary.
Originally posted by treysmooth if you wanna know why most of us that enjoy the game don't bother to post over here any more its simple, these boards have such a negative nature now, that why bother. Why should I waste my time making a post just to have it flamed to death by people that in many cases haven't played since month one?
For the last year I've posted on this site frequently but frankly I'm tired of the constant barrage of combative people that spend all their time trying to discredit a game and try to keep everyone away from it.
The biggest problem with these forums is the lack of real information that you can get from the forums.
That my friend is the main problem with the Vanguard forums here, someone post that the game is improving and he is instantly called a shill or a SOE employee or Brad in disguise its laughable.
I respect the opinions of those that respect mine, but there in lies the problem, there is no respect from many of those that hate the game and yes they often will blatantly lie about things. If you haven't played since the first month then how do you know it isn't improving. When someone says the game is crap that is opinion but if I say the game is pretty good I'm flamed and basically told that I'm wrong and yes I have been told that I'm lying to myself and couldn't be having fun.
To each his or her own
Regards
Trey
First, I actually did not open this Topic because I thought it was another "flame" Topic by a "troll" who was going to state that people currently playing the game are misleading; that is how bad it is that I will not even open some Topics.
Second, Trey, you make one of the most well reasoned and clearly articulated posts I have read since joining here. I completely agree with you that people that currently play this game "will not bother" to post here. Reasonable people will not subject themselves to personal attacks, flaming, and trolling simply because they play (and might enjoy) the game.
Third, I consider it being "Sane in an Insane Place" when you are trying to discuss the progress the game has made but you are deliberately attacked by willful and wanton trollers/flamers. I am so accustomed to it, and I have so many blocked, that is does not even really impact me anymore. I have started to use other forums and maybe visit here once or twice a day as opposed to multiple times each day.
Last, my theory is that the flaming and trolling has a lot less to do with the game (Vanguard, SWG, et al.) than it does with people's very real complex personal issues. The anger is obviously misdirected, and sometimes the target of their anger are people that currently play the game and try to talk about improvements and enhancements.
In conclusion, to sound like "them," I PREDICTED THIS (rofl). I predicted that people that currently play the game will gradually not bother to use MMORPG and we are witnessing that. The incredible value of MMORPG as a resource for "information" has become a sewer of flaming and trolling that is simply abnormal. In fact, I was not even going to bother visiting MMORPG today, and I am gradually getting out of the habit of doing it. I wish that were not necessary.
Lol, you are the biggest hyprocrite I've read on these forums. You attack me in my thread for not showing diehard statistical proof, yet you "claim" that many players don't visit mmorpg.com to garner information. Pot, meet kettle, and call him black. You don't even play this game yet you continue to post your "opinion" on what others write. And here's the kicker. I bet most of the "anger" isn't directed at curernt players; it's directed at the devs for what was supposed to be a great game, but wiht sriously scaled down features, and IT IS a pay to play beta. Period. None of us that dislike the game give a rat's ass whether the players read the forums or not. It's not their minds we are about. IT'S THE NEW PEOPLE THAT SHOULDN'T HAVE TO BE DUPED INTO THINKING THIS IS THE BEST GAME EVER RELEASED AND HAVE TO GO WASTE $50 + SUB MONEY TO LEARN THE HARD WAY THEIR SYSTEM WON'T RUN IT GREAT ETC. It's ok, you keep living in your dream world, and keep blocking people too. You were the kid who stood in th corner in school and covered your ears and said "NAH NAHNAHNANHAHN I CAN'T HEAR YOUUUU"... Good luck with that. And take your own advice and stay out of the forums!! You look like a bigger fool for saying you'll stay away, then having to come back in to insert your .01 cents (not .02, because that's too genrous) in a thread.
Originally posted by treysmooth if you wanna know why most of us that enjoy the game don't bother to post over here any more its simple, these boards have such a negative nature now, that why bother. Why should I waste my time making a post just to have it flamed to death by people that in many cases haven't played since month one?
For the last year I've posted on this site frequently but frankly I'm tired of the constant barrage of combative people that spend all their time trying to discredit a game and try to keep everyone away from it.
The biggest problem with these forums is the lack of real information that you can get from the forums.
That my friend is the main problem with the Vanguard forums here, someone post that the game is improving and he is instantly called a shill or a SOE employee or Brad in disguise its laughable.
I respect the opinions of those that respect mine, but there in lies the problem, there is no respect from many of those that hate the game and yes they often will blatantly lie about things. If you haven't played since the first month then how do you know it isn't improving. When someone says the game is crap that is opinion but if I say the game is pretty good I'm flamed and basically told that I'm wrong and yes I have been told that I'm lying to myself and couldn't be having fun.
To each his or her own
Regards
Trey
First, I actually did not open this Topic because I thought it was another "flame" Topic by a "troll" who was going to state that people currently playing the game are misleading; that is how bad it is that I will not even open some Topics.
Second, Trey, you make one of the most well reasoned and clearly articulated posts I have read since joining here. I completely agree with you that people that currently play this game "will not bother" to post here. Reasonable people will not subject themselves to personal attacks, flaming, and trolling simply because they play (and might enjoy) the game.
Third, I consider it being "Sane in an Insane Place" when you are trying to discuss the progress the game has made but you are deliberately attacked by willful and wanton trollers/flamers. I am so accustomed to it, and I have so many blocked, that is does not even really impact me anymore. I have started to use other forums and maybe visit here once or twice a day as opposed to multiple times each day.
Last, my theory is that the flaming and trolling has a lot less to do with the game (Vanguard, SWG, et al.) than it does with people's very real complex personal issues. The anger is obviously misdirected, and sometimes the target of their anger are people that currently play the game and try to talk about improvements and enhancements.
In conclusion, to sound like "them," I PREDICTED THIS (rofl). I predicted that people that currently play the game will gradually not bother to use MMORPG and we are witnessing that. The incredible value of MMORPG as a resource for "information" has become a sewer of flaming and trolling that is simply abnormal. In fact, I was not even going to bother visiting MMORPG today, and I am gradually getting out of the habit of doing it. I wish that were not necessary.
Lol, you are the biggest hyprocrite I've read on these forums. You attack me in my thread for not showing diehard statistical proof, yet you "claim" that many players don't visit mmorpg.com to garner information. Pot, meet kettle, and call him black. You don't even play this game yet you continue to post your "opinion" on what others write. And here's the kicker. I bet most of the "anger" isn't directed at curernt players; it's directed at the devs for what was supposed to be a great game, but wiht sriously scaled down features, and IT IS a pay to play beta. Period. None of us that dislike the game give a rat's ass whether the players read the forums or not. It's not their minds we are about. IT'S THE NEW PEOPLE THAT SHOULDN'T HAVE TO BE DUPED INTO THINKING THIS IS THE BEST GAME EVER RELEASED AND HAVE TO GO WASTE $50 + SUB MONEY TO LEARN THE HARD WAY THEIR SYSTEM WON'T RUN IT GREAT ETC. It's ok, you keep living in your dream world, and keep blocking people too. You were the kid who stood in th corner in school and covered your ears and said "NAH NAHNAHNANHAHN I CAN'T HEAR YOUUUU"... Good luck with that. And take your own advice and stay out of the forums!! You look like a bigger fool for saying you'll stay away, then having to come back in to insert your .01 cents (not .02, because that's too genrous) in a thread.
Well I can see why you're angry, and rightly so. I mean if I read about a game and managed to get duped into thinking it was the best game ever released, I would be mad as well.
Just a few things.
Healz plays the game; if you were accually reading his posts you would know that. Reading comprehension for the win.
You may be angry with the devs, but every time someone makes a post that they enjoy the game it is they that are attacked. So yes, you direct your anger at the players. Also you didn't say none of the anger, you said most of the anger. Why should we be the focus of ANY of your anger. We didn't wrong you, we didn't make you buy the game. We didn't make the game; so why direct ANY amount of hate at us?
I don't ever recall reading that my hardware would run any game great, just that it will run. Yeah, yeah, yeah we've already been through the system requirements thing, but it's kind of a silly comment to make. Great just seems like a pretty high expectation. We're not playing on a console.
You're really not in any position to call someone else a hypocrit after making a post like this.
If the players don't read these forums do you really thing that anyone at Sigil would read them then. I mean, I wouldn't visit a forum full of people that hated and lied about my product if there wasn't at least a few people there that enjoyed it.
I would have to agree that many players don't visit this forum for information. First there has to be information here for them to visit, and since you can't post information without it turning out just as this thread and every other one on this forum.
Me, I don't mind you guys hating. Gives me something to do when I'm not playing an MMO. I just disagree with lying.
If the players don't read these forums do you really thing that anyone at Sigil would read them then. I mean, I wouldn't visit a forum full of people that hated and lied about my product if there wasn't at least a few people there that enjoyed it.
I would have to agree that many players don't visit this forum for information. First there has to be information here for them to visit, and since you can't post information without it turning out just as this thread and every other one on this forum.
Me, I don't mind you guys hating. Gives me something to do when I'm not playing an MMO. I just disagree with lying.
Well, I personally would take a different approach.
I think Sigil should have a close look at these forums. Let them see what they're up against, know why people are as mad as they are, and what can be done to correct/remedy the hatred.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
If the players don't read these forums do you really thing that anyone at Sigil would read them then. I mean, I wouldn't visit a forum full of people that hated and lied about my product if there wasn't at least a few people there that enjoyed it.
I would have to agree that many players don't visit this forum for information. First there has to be information here for them to visit, and since you can't post information without it turning out just as this thread and every other one on this forum.
Me, I don't mind you guys hating. Gives me something to do when I'm not playing an MMO. I just disagree with lying.
Well, I personally would take a different approach.
I think Sigil should have a close look at these forums. Let them see what they're up against, know why people are as mad as they are, and what can be done to correct/remedy the hatred.
Considering that you're on record as saying that you are suspicious of anyone who posts anything positive about Vanguard here, I'm not sure why you'd think anyone from Sigil would waste his time here. You are already admittedly prejudiced against Vanguard, so why should Sigil take anything you say seriously? And you claim that 80% of the members here have tried Vanguard and rejected it... I'm sure this kind of unsubstantiated hyperbole is of limitless value to Sigil. And despite what your clever sig may say, the things you post do reflect upon this site as a whole - at least to people like me, who are relative newcomers here. There is basically nothing worthwhile that MMORPG com can contribute to Vanguard at this point, and your posts certainly don't help either.
If the players don't read these forums do you really thing that anyone at Sigil would read them then. I mean, I wouldn't visit a forum full of people that hated and lied about my product if there wasn't at least a few people there that enjoyed it.
I would have to agree that many players don't visit this forum for information. First there has to be information here for them to visit, and since you can't post information without it turning out just as this thread and every other one on this forum.
Me, I don't mind you guys hating. Gives me something to do when I'm not playing an MMO. I just disagree with lying.
Well, I personally would take a different approach.
I think Sigil should have a close look at these forums. Let them see what they're up against, know why people are as mad as they are, and what can be done to correct/remedy the hatred.
Considering that you're on record as saying that you are suspicious of anyone who posts anything positive about Vanguard here, I'm not sure why you'd think anyone from Sigil would waste his time here. You are already admittedly prejudiced against Vanguard, so why should Sigil take anything you say seriously? And you claim that 80% of the members here have tried Vanguard and rejected it... I'm sure this kind of unsubstantiated hyperbole is of limitless value to Sigil. And despite what your clever sig may say, the things you post do reflect upon this site as a whole - at least to people like me, who are relative newcomers here. There is basically nothing worthwhile that MMORPG com can contribute to Vanguard at this point, and your posts certainly don't help either. Not that any positive posting from Sigil would remedy any "hatred" here in the first place. I think you missed the point.
Vanguard improves in no way from idle positive posts; a constructive point from a "hater" detailing what's lacking or wrong in Vanguard is more useful to a developer than praise from a perfectly complacent fan over what aspect of the game is working correctly.
As for all the criticism towards MMORPG.com; have you been to SilkyVenom lately? Are the posts there really that different? The only difference between SilkyVenom and MMORPG.com is that SilkyVenom is a dedicated affiliate site, and a hub of developer activity. It still sees a share of negative posts day to day that's no different from what's seen here. Heck, a good amount of the posts started here begin by citing what's already been said over at SilkyVenom (e.g. all the recent broken patch, super cleric talks).
There's also other things you can complain about if you want MMORPG.com to become a full-fledged Vanguard fansite; such as the lack of specialized forums for crafting and servers, or their seemingly disinterest in being apart of the affiliate site program. Of all the things MMORPG.com lacks in being as being a viable contribution towards Vanguard; you start with accusing the one aspect it shares with some of the developers' prime posting spots? I'll buy all that negativity mess when Vanguard's subscriptions ramp up, SilkyVenom no longer holds negative posts itself, and Brad never again posts on fohguild.org.
'til then, I don't see why MMORPG.com should set out to set any kind of examples in striving for absolute positivity; it isn't the cesspit you believe it to be; head over to SilkyVenom's Volcano for that.
I was recently able to get a buddy key, and just finished the free 14-day trial. I'm definitely glad I tried it, and saw for myself what the real deal was on this game. First thing I noticed and have to mention are the graphics. To me, they are the best I've ever seen in an mmo. I tried LOTRO and thought that it was best looking mmorpg yet (environment-wise anyway, the character and gear graphics look like ass in LOTRO imo), but Vanguard definitely beats it in looks. I was able to run the game at it's highest settings everywhere I went with very good frame-rates except when in towns and there were a lot of players on screen. Then I'd just turn down a couple things in the settings and it ran smoothly (8800gts 640mb, c2d 6600, 2g RAM, 1680x1050). The quests were engaging for the most part, and there were a ton of things to do. However, I did find a couple quests that weren't quite right, and It takes a while to get into the main story line. I really liked the combat in this game. It kept me more involved than most other mmorpgs have. One thing that was lacking in the game though, and the only reason I somewhat hesitate to buy the full version, is that the number of other players online can be really low at times, and we all know how much it sucks when you're unable to finish something beacause you can't find anybody to team up with. If half the things that people were saying about this game at launch were true, then this game has taken leaps and bounds improvement-wise in just a few months. As the OP said, if you haven't tried this game in awhile, or are thinking about trying it, I strongly recommend you give it a shot.
Oh, If you've got nothing better to do than to bitch about, and insult people who like a damn video game that you don't like, you're fucking lame.
Originally posted by Nostaphos If your considering checking it out for the first time or even comming back for a second look I highly recommend you do so . Ignore all the "pissy hate folk" that are still beating on it. I think thier just toting about a grudge from that craptacular release that the game had. Felt so strongly about this that i opened an account here just to throw in my 2 bits. Peace =D
Nice try, BradYou took the words RIGHT out of my mouth. Or maybe one of my other posts, thief!!
If the players don't read these forums do you really thing that anyone at Sigil would read them then. I mean, I wouldn't visit a forum full of people that hated and lied about my product if there wasn't at least a few people there that enjoyed it.
I would have to agree that many players don't visit this forum for information. First there has to be information here for them to visit, and since you can't post information without it turning out just as this thread and every other one on this forum.
Me, I don't mind you guys hating. Gives me something to do when I'm not playing an MMO. I just disagree with lying.
Well, I personally would take a different approach.
I think Sigil should have a close look at these forums. Let them see what they're up against, know why people are as mad as they are, and what can be done to correct/remedy the hatred.
I can accually agree with this. The only problem I see is that a lot of the people that are mad don't articulate very well what it is that they are upset about. Just look at the post I quoted and the wording used.
I can understand being frustrated with bugs and poor performance, and canceling for those reasons. But a lot of what I keep hearing is people just don't like the game. Take the performance out, the bugs out and most of the people that quit still wouldn't play the game. Not all now, just most in my opinion.
I can see if it's people that truelly WANT to play the game, but for whatever reason they can't. But that's not the impression I get from a lot of the posters here.
Maybe it's a patience (sp?) thing. Maybe the people that like it are just more patient, and willing to wait things out. I am. I mean, the game was released early, and I don't really expect everything to be there now, and I'm willing to wait.
Aside from that though. I still say, if you got the system and can get over the few bugs you might run into; then VG could be for you. It's all about taste. It's either you or it's not.
Sadly, I think one of the things that discredits almost ALL positive comments regarding the game is the fact that Brad has repeatedly and openly expressed his use of viral marketing tactics.
Think about it. I'd go out on a limb and say 80% (totally imaginary estimate) of the people who post on this board have at least tried Vanguard at one point or another. Most didn't like it, and are not ashamed to give you detailed lists as to what they disliked about the game. The summarized list is usually...
1) Performance issues.
2) Crap release.
3) Empty worlds/long travel times.
4) Bugs, CTD's.
5) Missing promised content months after release.
6) The fact they nerfed classes before they fixed performance issues.
Those are some of the common ones, but obviously there are plenty more problems I've failed to document.
But, just as sepher said, and even if you just observe the boards enough, you notice certain trends. Every 2 weeks or so, there seems to be some new wave of tactics promoting the game's greatness. At first, it was just the downright, blatant lying (This game has no performance issues, it runs perfect, don't listen to anyone who says it doesn't! Try VG!). Then it went to the try-it-for-yourself. (No one's opinion should matter but your own. That's why you should buy and try before making an opinion on the game). After this, Brad wrote his first apology, similar to a Smedley style thing. (We made some mistakes, but Vanguard is still the best game out there...and you should try it...please?). Then came the discredit approach. (Don't listen to the stupid haters, they're just mad it's not WoW, and bitter SWG vets) Now we've moved onto the convert approach. (Vanguard once sucked, but I've given it another try and welcomed it into my life, and it's absolutely amazing! You should see how much better it's gotten since release!)
It's not so much that people are posting positively, but there are suspect factors. The posting styles seem to mimic one another. They're often done by new accounts (How often do you see a 1000+ poster account preaching of Vanguard's greatness?) or lurkers who have less than 20 posts total. Specific examples are almost never given as to what has improved, but it's just "better" all around. Then, of course, there's the fact Brad announced a more aggressive viral marketing campaign.
So forgive me if I take many positive comments with a grain of salt, but when you know there's someone paying people to hype a game, it's much more difficult to take things for face value. I think the gameplay needs to speak for itself; people will find out on their own from close friends if a game is truly awesome long before they take a completely random, unestablished person's word for it.
QFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wish that was stickied on these forums for all those obvious hired viral marketers to read and then get lost lol. Not everyone who posts a positive commet about VG is a viral marketer...but sometimes its so damn obvious, combined with the fact Brad admitted to viral marketing...
If the players don't read these forums do you really thing that anyone at Sigil would read them then. I mean, I wouldn't visit a forum full of people that hated and lied about my product if there wasn't at least a few people there that enjoyed it.
I would have to agree that many players don't visit this forum for information. First there has to be information here for them to visit, and since you can't post information without it turning out just as this thread and every other one on this forum.
Me, I don't mind you guys hating. Gives me something to do when I'm not playing an MMO. I just disagree with lying.
Well, I personally would take a different approach.
I think Sigil should have a close look at these forums. Let them see what they're up against, know why people are as mad as they are, and what can be done to correct/remedy the hatred.
If the players don't read these forums do you really thing that anyone at Sigil would read them then. I mean, I wouldn't visit a forum full of people that hated and lied about my product if there wasn't at least a few people there that enjoyed it.
I would have to agree that many players don't visit this forum for information. First there has to be information here for them to visit, and since you can't post information without it turning out just as this thread and every other one on this forum.
Me, I don't mind you guys hating. Gives me something to do when I'm not playing an MMO. I just disagree with lying.
Well, I personally would take a different approach.
I think Sigil should have a close look at these forums. Let them see what they're up against, know why people are as mad as they are, and what can be done to correct/remedy the hatred.
If the players don't read these forums do you really thing that anyone at Sigil would read them then. I mean, I wouldn't visit a forum full of people that hated and lied about my product if there wasn't at least a few people there that enjoyed it.
I would have to agree that many players don't visit this forum for information. First there has to be information here for them to visit, and since you can't post information without it turning out just as this thread and every other one on this forum.
Me, I don't mind you guys hating. Gives me something to do when I'm not playing an MMO. I just disagree with lying.
Well, I personally would take a different approach.
I think Sigil should have a close look at these forums. Let them see what they're up against, know why people are as mad as they are, and what can be done to correct/remedy the hatred.
Title says it all. There has been so much vitriol against Vanguard. It is like when some products get launched with a ton of hype, but the opposite. I have never seen an MMO launched with so much negative-hype. Lately many people on these boards have stated that they hate VG because they want it to bring them back to the glory days. I am not sure if that comparison will ever make sense. Eq1 was my first game, and while I have fond memories of being in a virtual world for the first time, I have since then played just about every MMO launched, and have become a jaded gamer. The n00b sense of wonder is never going to come back, so why look for it? Its like the song by Sade called "It's Never as Good as the First Time." But it seems like many want it to be like that Madonna song called "Touched for the Very First Time." That's not going to happen again.
This game is nowhere near as bad as many people on this board are saying. To me, it has a very Velious like feel to it. Alot of the old mechanics in Eq1 (like kiting but with more risk) are back in VG. The gameplay seems a bit more free than we are getting in other MMO's (like Eq2). The classes are fresh, and we are either seeing new classes or new takes on classes.
The only two things I don't like about this game are TLC and performance. TLC is self-explanatory. As far as performance goes, it was so bad in beta that I deleted my VG off of my hard drive. With a medium level comp (3200 Athlon, ATI 9950 graphics card and 1 gig ram) I was only getting a pathetic 5 fps. However, since launch, I decided to give VG a second try. I added a gig of ram and put an NVIDIA 7800 GS OC, and am getting 25 to 30 fps with the graphics reso on the highest setting and the display set to balanced (and this is while fighting in the city). My new rig is hardly state of the art, but is running VG fine. I played for four hours last night with no probs until midnight where the server started glitching. Assuming they fix this, I think VG will be fine.
I started playing VG with very low expectations for it, other than I could add it to my Station Access and play it with Eq2 (and I planned on adding the DC MMO and other upcoming MMOs for a flat fee). The posters on this board lowered my expectations on the game with their rants on how VG sucked. I am finding this game to be much better than they said, and am wondering how many others of you think that VG has been better than the poor word of mouth it received throughout beta.
Well said and a great question and certainly one we think about. I think there are misconceptions out there about the game and our intent. Our heritage making EQ 1 makes it so a lot of people automatically assume the game is only for the hardcore. I posted here and elsewhere (on other boards and our own message boards) for months before release talking about how the game is for casual, core, and hardcore players and our belief they can all co-exist in the same game. Unfortunately, a lot of people didn't read those posts and assume Vanguard is more hard core because EQ 1 was. I think I failed in reaching out to a lot of people and spreading the word that this game is NOT hard core like the original EQ 1. I probably spent more time talking about the game to those already interested in it than reaching out to those who were not. Ah well, hindsight is 20/20.
A lot of people wanted a new game that was like EQ 1 up to the Velious period and I and others described Vanguard thusly. The good part of that is we got those people excited about the game. The bad part was that people who didn't follow the game as closely didn't hear the complete message, that being that the game also has lots of content for casual and core gamers -- it was like when I posted, I was just preaching to the choir. People who didn't follow the message boards and only heard that Vanguard was made by the original EQ guys made assumptions that Vanguard would be just like EQ and require tons of time to play, that you had to raid, that you had to group constantly, etc.
Like I said, that message resonated with a lot of people in a positive way, but it also did harm in that those people who don't want another EQ 1 were turned off when they heard about Vanguard but not all of the details behind the game. There were and are also a lot of 'Vanbois' who spread the word that this game was not for WoW players and that people who like a more casual game like WoW were not welcome in Vanguard. In that sense, the messaging backfired and many people aren't even giving the game a chance.
I think we could have reached out to those people on other boards in a better way and made sure people knew that casual gamers are indeed welcome in Vanguard. I also think that after level 12ish people are feeling that they have to group, and that is something we need to address. We also need better LFG tools so that people can find groups. We were over-worried that the newbie areas would be over crowded and now we face some under population as people level up and spread out over the large world that is Telon. That is why we are working on making the LFG tools better, looking into adding some overland teleportation, etc. Under population is actually worse than over population because it can be difficult to find people to play with and this hurts community building.
We also need to change our messaging in ads, both online and in print, and attempt to dispel the assumption some people are making that Vanguard is only hardcore. In reality we very much understand that the gamespace has grown and evolved. People who had a lot of time on their hands and played a ton of EQ have grown up, got jobs, families, etc. Even those who played EQ a ton of hours and had a blast for years playing that game now are in situations where while they had fun with EQ want a different game that requires less overall time invested and especially less amounts of contiguous time and the ability to play more casually. Like I said, I think we need to make some changes to the game (nothing fundamental, but some tweaks here and there), but the even bigger problem is that many people aren't even trying the game out because they've already made up their minds that Vanguard = EQ 1.
Some of this will be addressed through viral marketing. As those who are playing the game enjoy Vanguard, they will tell their friends that this game is not as hard core and nearly as tedious as EQ 1. This will help, but I also think we need to be more proactive in spreading the word about what Vanguard is really like. Heck, even people who are giving the game a chance have misconceptions. I was grouped around level 10 and we got into a situation where we were in the floating cities above Jalen's Crossing and died a few times and just couldn't get back to our corpses to do a CR. We ending up dying several times. I said forget it, and went to the altar and just summoned my corpse to me (something you could NOT do in EQ 1). I advised the others in my pick-up group to do the same and they didn't know you could do that! They thought you HAD to CR, just like EQ 1. Man, that was an eye-opener. I think there are people who truly believe you either have to CR or that the penalties for summoning your corpse to the altar are so bad that you never want to do it. And it some cases, at higher levels, and depending on what mob you die to, the penalties *are* too severe, and we need to make some changes. But just as importantly, perhaps even more importantly, we need to get the word out that you don't have to CR in the vast majority of cases, and that also in the vast majority of cases summoning your corpse to the altar where you pop up when you die does NOT include a heinous penalty; rather, that's why we put that functionality in there. Having to CR in Vanguard is the exception, not the rule -- only in fighting extremely difficult mobs where you and your party knowingly accept the risk vs. reward of fighting specific boss mobs likely in the depths of dungeons do you take the risk of having to CR (or get your corpse dragged out) assuming you totally wipe and don't have someone who survives on hand to resurrect you. And I think that's just one powerful example of false assumptions that are being made about the game, either by people playing it (who may get frustrated when they actually don't have to) or by people who have heard about the game and figure, again, that it's hardcore and an old school MMOG with updated graphics. Ah! This is frustrating, but we will get the message out.
No, we're not talking about changing the game to be a lot more similar to WoW. We're not trying to make a WoW clone. The game is more challenging, and it does take longer to level up, but not a lot longer really -- we've timed it. And the additional challenge is optional -- you don't have to play Vanguard the way you had to play earlier MMOGs unless you want to. So as long as we can make leveling up less tedious, make sure there are ways to advance even if you only have a little time that day to play, etc. I think we'll be in good shape.
There are a lot of emotions out there. Strong ones. You have people, like I mentioned, that while they enjoyed EQ 1 back in the day, want a game that has the good parts of EQ 1 but not the tedious nature of it, or the necessity to play crazy hours, or to raid constantly. Those people I think, or at least most of them, will enjoy Vanguard if they give it a chance. But first we need to penetrate these assumptions and perceptions.
Then there's the whole WoW vs Vanguard issue where many people think that if they enjoy WoW they won't like Vanguard or vice versa. This is in part again to those pre-conceptions, but also our fan base has contributed to this stereotype. (sorry Vanguard fans, I don't mean to generalize here, but there has been a negative vibe, a polarizing vibe, even with me and others posting that this game is inclusive not exclusive).
Then there's the issue that Vanguard is a different game and won't appeal to everyone. Some people like that, and some people don't. It was always our desire to make a game where casual, core, and hard core players could co-exist and you can certainly solo or play casually in Vanguard and have a great time. But then there are also people who simply don't want to group. We need to make sure as many of those people can and will still have fun in Vanguard. Again, the game isn't designed to appeal to everyone and some casual players won't like Vanguard no matter what. And that's ok -- we didn't set out to make a game that is all things to all people. But I think quite a few people who have inaccurate preconceptions about the game actually will enjoy the game if they give it a chance. In fact, I know quite a few. The challenge is to get them to try it.
Then there are some of the controversial aspects of Vanguard -- a huge world with hopefully meaningful travel, no instancing, etc. When some people hear about these aspects of Vanguard that seem 'retro' they automatically assume the game isn't for them, that it's old school and that we decided to ignore modern MMOGs and were stuck blindly in the past when designing this game. We need to reach out to those people and explain where we embraced modern MMOG ideas and concepts but also why we chose to build on 'older' foundations, not because we're stubbornly set in our ways, but more so because Vanguard needs to be something different, and a combination of new, revolutionary ideas combined with an evolutionary and proven foundation. And the 'vision' can and does change and learn -- as we've mentioned, we are seriously considering some overland teleportation to take some of the tediousness out of travel. We can and will adapt, and we can do so without making a game that is a clone of another game -- the MMOG gamespace is certainly large and mature enough to support games with their own identity and also large enough where people deserve choices. So overall I think a lot of people will end up enjoying the game once they give it a chance.
In a sense the more controversial aspects of Vanguard have been a blessing and a curse. The game is selling very well, but it could do even better if we could get this message out, that more casual people can and are enjoying the game -- that soloing or playing in small groups is a viable and fun way to play the game. Yes, you can get more rewards out of grouping and Vanguard is a game mostly targeted at the core gamer who enjoys grouping. But again, that's not mutually exclusive with casual gamers having fun too.
We also included features that appeal to more casual players and players with different tastes. We have a robust and fun crafting and harvesting system. We have diplomacy which is enjoyable and is done soloing. We put in housing and the ability to own mounts and ships because we wanted to get the UO/SWG player to enjoy the game as well, and not just the EQ 1 player. But again, getting that message out to those who didn't frequent our official boards before release has been a challenge.
We made it clear how Vanguard differs from other more modern MMOGs. I think this has had both positive and negative effects. It attracted many people who wanted a modern MMOG that is still built on the tried and true foundation of older MMOGs and MUDs. But then it also created controversy and assumptions that Vanguard was just another EQ 1 with updated graphics. In reality, while the game does build on the past, it's also different and takes into account that the gamespace has evolved and that many players don't want a total re-hash of the past. So again, this appealed to those who followed the game closely before launch, but at the same time created misconceptions amongst those who didn't follow the game as closely.
Sometimes controversy is good, and sometimes it's bad. Again, I think better messaging and viral marketing will help here. But to answer your question, I think that's why there's been such polarizing opinions out there -- the Vanguard lovers and haters. EQ 1 created so many emotions, both positive and negative. In fact, I don't know if there's been another game where people have become so emotional both while playing and after they'd finished playing. I still run into people and when they find out my involvement with EQ I tense up a little bit, not knowing if they'll get all excited and tell me about all the great times they had, all the people they met and are still friends with, or how they met their spouse in-game, thanking me profusely for producing the game... or if they'll look at me in a not so friendly way and make sure I know how they dropped out of college, or how the game, in their opinion, caused friction between them and their loved ones, etc. So we need to reach out to the 'haters' because I know a lot of them would love Vanguard if they gave it a chance -- Vanguard is truly a game where we learned from the past and we know people have changed. I know people who were burned out years ago with EQ 1 style games but who love Vanguard, so I know this is doable. It's just easier said than done.
Then there's the issue of us releasing a bit early because of us having to release when we did due to financial issues. And then there's the fact that we released so close to the WoW expansion. That didn't help either, at least short term. I am confident though that as people finish up with the expansion, that many WoW gamers will migrate to Vanguard. People want something new in their lives, and that includes MMOGs. WoW is a fantastic game, but Vanguard is designed with additional polish but also additional depth and freedom to experience more from a virtual world.
So while the game continues to sell well and churn is low, I think we could have done even better had we more effectively addressed what you mentioned and what I talked about above. I'm not worried -- I know Vanguard is a great game and getting better every patch. But at the same time, I'm not as happy as I could be about the negativity and controversy surrounding the game, when we launched the game, etc. We will recover and get the message out, of that I am certain. And in a sense, we did know some of this would happen -- again, there are those drawn to Vanguard because of our EQ heritage, but we also knew that there would be those who would be turned off by that same heritage. The answer is like I said to get better messaging out there, to reach out to those people, to have those who did buy the game and who are enjoying it spread the word to the more cautious or cynical MMOG gamers.
I think we have three groups of people we want to target with this game.
1. People who look back at EQ fondly and want a new game that is built on the foundation and heritage we have. Those people are primarily the ones buying the game and playing it like crazy.
2. People who look back at EQ and either never enjoyed it or enjoyed it immensely but whose lives have changed and don't want to play an updated EQ 1. I think a great number of those people can be reached and will end up playing the game and enjoying it. We learned a lot over the years, from our triumphs and mistakes. Challenge doesn't have to equal tedium. Advancement doesn't have to mean tons of contiguous hours played, families and jobs ignored, etc. Some people within this group are simply done with games like Vanguard period, but I think a lot of them aren't and won't be when they find out that Vanguard is different than EQ 1 in the ways that are no longer compatible with their lifestyle. I also think the more UO-esque elements of Vanguard that were not present in EQ 1 will help make the game more appealing to old school MMOG players who were more interested in a broad rather than deep game. There is a lot more to do in Vanguard than there ever was to do in EQ 1 -- a lot more sandbox, broad, etc. activities like building houses, sailing ships, etc. And when we get full city building in, players will be able to run vendors, enjoy an RTS element, and much more. Lastly in this group are the PvPers and I think as we continue to make our PvP servers better and more varied that more PvP players will be attracted to the game.
3. New gamers or gamers for whom WoW was their first MMOG. Reaching out to them is also a challenge. Many still enjoy WoW, which is fine, and especially are enjoying it now that Burning Crusade is out. As I've posted for months, perhaps years, I am confident that some percentage of WoW players will end up looking for a deeper game like Vanguard, where there is a lot more to do and experience. And as I've posted in the past, it doesn't have to be a huge percentage of WoW players for us to reach 500,000+ subscribers in the first year or so. But, of course, launching so close to the WoW expansion hurt us in this area short term. But they will come
Lastly, there's the art style, being more like EQ 2, using more modern technology -- shaders, bump mapping, specularity, etc. Some people when they look at screenshots of Vanguard assume it is a game much more like EQ 2 than WoW. Here again I am confident that our decision to use newer technology will allow us to keep the game current for years to come. But in the short term, people who stayed with EQ 1 or moved to WoW because they didn't like the looks of EQ 2, or are having performance issues, or who assume Vanguard plays just like EQ 2 -- these people need to be reached as well, because Vanguard is its own game and plays differently and is not an EQ 2 clone any more than it is a WoW clone -- it's a different experience and will become even more so as the game continues to evolve. People will be buying better machines, and we will continue to optimize, and as other games (not just MMOGs) come out that use newer technology (FPS games, etc.), people won't assume as much that Vanguard = EQ 2 just because they use similar tech; rather they'll simply see a modern game with an incredibly immersive world and setting.
So, anyway, that's what I think. We have some hurdles to over come, but I'm confident we can and are overcoming them. The word is getting out. The game is controversial. Our heritage in being involved with EQ 1 is controversial -- a blessing and a curse. But as more and more positive reviews of the game come out, as we continue to optimize and fix bugs, as we continue to add polish, and as people who are playing and enjoying the game tell their friends about it, the game will grow and become that much more popular. It's hard to compete in the gamespace now with WoW being such a giant. But then it can also be very advantageous to offer an alternative to the 'mainstream'. Look at DAoC back in the EQ days -- that game was never as popular as EQ, but was still a great game and found a solid niche and did very well. And now they've been bought by EA and have some tremendous opportunities ahead of them. I think the same is true for Vanguard -- the Vanguard lovers will mellow and enjoy the game and spread the word, and the Vanguard haters will relax and the more they hear about the game and that it's not more of the same, or too retro, or too hard core, they'll give the game a chance too.
In the meantime we'll continue to make the game better, fix bugs, make tweaks, add some very cool features. And we'll make sure people know that you don't have to grind unless you want to, that you can play casually, that you have multiple advancement paths and don't have to fight all of the time. We'll make sure people know that you don't have to CR -- that you can summon your corpse at the altar. We'll make sure that skipping CRs isn't as painful as it is. We'll add some teleporters. We'll make sure that while grouping remains the focus, that we make better LFG and even matchmaking functionality. The word about how fun harvesting and crafting is will spread. The newness of diplomacy where you don't have to fight to advance, where you can find out the lore and storyline without having to hack and slash all of the time will get out there -- there's already been some very positive reviews where people are very excited about this third sphere of gameplay. The community will grow. The controversy and love-hate feelings will subside and having more options when it comes to MMOGs will appeal to more and more people. After all, people like choices.
Anyway, those are my thoughts as to 'why they rage', the controversy, and all the emotions surrounding this game. Thanks for listening
I've said it 100 times, but he needs to seriously just stop talking about the viral marketing. He's shooting himself in the foot, constantly parading the utilization of Viral Marketing...
3 things to do ASAP Brad/Sigil...
1) Official forums. Active developer involvement on these forums. No censoring. SOE forums are notorious for deleting ANY negativity threads. Stop expecting fan-sites to work as CSR for you without giving them a salary. It's already caused a few sites to leave the affiliate program, and I have no doubts more will follow suit if they don't get their act together.
2) Free trials. People don't wanna hear how much the game has improved from you, me, or anyone else. Practice what you preach. Nearly all of the fans of Vanguard on this website talk about "Try it for yourself", and even Brad constantly says "Give it a chance". Fine. Give people a 10 chance. If the game has truly improved that much, you'll attract customers from the trial.
3) End viral marketing. People have heard of Vanguard, they know it. Unfortunately for Sigil/Brad, it's counter-productive. People have heard about Vanguard, anyone who's had even the slightest interest in it has heard something about it. More often than not, it isn't pretty. Please, for the sake of your game, stop harping about the damn advertising/marketing campaigns.
Follow these 3 steps, you have a shot at making Vanguard a good game over the course of a year. Ignore them, and fail.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
I've said it 100 times, but he needs to seriously just stop talking about the viral marketing. He's shooting himself in the foot, constantly parading the utilization of Viral Marketing...
3 things to do ASAP Brad/Sigil...
1) Official forums. Active developer involvement on these forums. No censoring. SOE forums are notorious for deleting ANY negativity threads. Stop expecting fan-sites to work as CSR for you without giving them a salary. It's already caused a few sites to leave the affiliate program, and I have no doubts more will follow suit if they don't get their act together. Fully agree on this and keep in mind i was one of those people at the beginning that was kinda okay with having only affiliated sites but as time gone by i do feel official forums would be much better, as some aff.sites don't even let newb's in, some are just somewhat to messy to clearlky find somethinig. There are some very good sites, but officila would make a world of difference. I do not fully agree with deleting all negative post as when they are constructive even at SOE sites they will contineu. It not constructive negative post that gets deleted its most of the time negative anti-social behaviour that gets deleted or things that truly go against their CoC. Just like on this forum bro the ignorant seem to have the loudest voice and that should not be the target audience of a forum, regardless if its a official or just a game community site
2) Free trials. People don't wanna hear how much the game has improved from you, me, or anyone else. Practice what you preach. Nearly all of the fans of Vanguard on this website talk about "Try it for yourself", and even Brad constantly says "Give it a chance". Fine. Give people a 10 chance. If the game has truly improved that much, you'll attract customers from the trial. Absolute should be done asap as it will make starters area's hopefully more populated at those places that are not. I myself moved back to Martok and again will say that i see a increase in characters in those area's. Again i need to be clear on this forum so i will say this does not have to mean that all those new characters i see in the newb area's are new players all i know they could be alts. But anyway a trial will be a good setpoint again. I'm also glad that you atleast see that we that enjoy the game would not force the game but most of the time will always say try first before you buy or get a buddy key (which is the same as try first
3) End viral marketing. People have heard of Vanguard, they know it. Unfortunately for Sigil/Brad, it's counter-productive. People have heard about Vanguard, anyone who's had even the slightest interest in it has heard something about it. More often than not, it isn't pretty. Please, for the sake of your game, stop harping about the damn advertising/marketing campaigns. Wel here i disagree. Why? because it seems that when you look for example on this site that every single thing slighty positive towards Vanguard is instantly labeld as viral marketing. Its something that needs to be done regardless what industrie and you working for a part of the industrie should know better then what you just said. Heck i do believe a site like the one you work for is kinda all about viral marketing both in a good as in a bad way it always can go both way's. And lets be honost when info is shared on this forum it gets wieled down to the next pages as most of the times the "haters" do not seem to be able to flame such post so they get pushed away by post that seem to act as flamebait. (yes i'm refuring to a couple of WALL of emotes or WALL of lore that i posted or screenshot section. I know forums are for info/discussions but lately the negatives play a larger part on this forum which is really misleading towards the game itself. And no its not perfect (never have played a perfect game before in my life) but it can be fun if people just know how to make fun and not only rely on gamemechanics but also try and rely on some of their own imationation, no not imagine Vanguard is perfect, has no bugs, does not crash, never lag, full of people BS, But honosty which will serve people allot better.
Follow these 3 steps, you have a shot at making Vanguard a good game over the course of a year. Ignore them, and fail.
Also have to disagree on the fact that it will fail without these steps, cause there are more things that i feel needs to be sorted out that for me outways these 3 points. But thats personaly afcourse
Wel here i disagree. Why? because it seems that when you look for example on this site that every single thing slighty positive towards Vanguard is instantly labeld as viral marketing. Its something that needs to be done regardless what industrie and you working for a part of the industrie should know better then what you just said. Heck i do believe a site like the one you work for is kinda all about viral marketing both in a good as in a bad way it always can go both way's. And lets be honost when info is shared on this forum it gets wieled down to the next pages as most of the times the "haters" do not seem to be able to flame such post so they get pushed away by post that seem to act as flamebait. (yes i'm refuring to a couple of WALL of emotes or WALL of lore that i posted or screenshot section. I know forums are for info/discussions but lately the negatives play a larger part on this forum which is really misleading towards the game itself. And no its not perfect (never have played a perfect game before in my life) but it can be fun if people just know how to make fun and not only rely on gamemechanics but also try and rely on some of their own imationation, no not imagine Vanguard is perfect, has no bugs, does not crash, never lag, full of people BS, But honosty which will serve people allot better.
It isn't that viral marketing is bad, it's moreso that Brad lays out the entire terminology and usage of phrases for those that choose to mimic his enthusiasm towards Vanguard. If you're able to constantly reference where a new pitch for Vanguard has come from (Brad's spiels over at fohguild.com predominantly), then viral marketing sorta takes upon a tangible form with all the negative connotations we've seen associated with it on these forums; primarily accusations of folks being Sigil employees or merely overzealous fans taking up a cause.
Personally, viral marketing is annoying when I'm able to look at the source of the enthusiasm (Brad's posts again) and see that a person here is actually pitching the game in a way that's a detriment to Vanguard; mistakenly believing they're doing something positive. It's simply deceptive and not helpful towards Vanguard, whether it's calling for re-subscribers and wasting second chances prior to the re-launch, speaking inconsequentially of performance issues when Brad has stated the average player will need a new PC, saying the population levels are just fine when lower than expected subscriptions have been acknowledged, or a number of other "positive" posting trends that directly contradict the source of viral marketing schematics.
Even if viral marketers, or otherwise "positive" posters hadn't decided to pitch any of Brad's messages, I still believe any "positivity" or enthusiasm should be limited by the overarching messages that Brad himself sends out. For example, I'm always going to publicly disagree with anyone claiming the game can run on 6 series GeForces with 1 gig of RAM, so long as Brad is suggesting new systems.
The sooner potential buyers get it in their heads they're going to need a new system for this game, the better; mixed messages don't help. It took me a day to figure out I wouldn't be able to run Supreme Commander at full settings until the future when hardware actually exists for it; it didn't take a year of reading back and forth messages on a fansite; because the message was concise and clear by fans and developers alike.
I'm certain some people are playing on 6 series GeForces or equivalents, and even 1 gig of RAM, but as aforementioned, there's already an overarching stance on how and when Vanguard will perform at the level Sigil wants. Performance is just one example; there's also conflicting messages between "positive" fans and developers about things like bugs, ease or lackthereof of finding groups, availability of content, and so on.
In short, a lot of posts deserve to go up in flames in my opinion. Being "positive" doesn't equate to being constructive or otherwise beneficial towards Vanguard. It's perfectly reasonable for a "hater" to be as grim as Sigil is about their own game, and squat down any insinuations (growing population, worth of re-subscribing now for a second impression, absence of bugs, vast performance issues, etc.) that are only going to lead to disappointment and wasted first impressions for Vanguard. If all "info" was normalized to the exact level Sigil themselves put out, then "grim" could become simply "realistic" finally, but for now, of course some folks are going to seem negative if Vanguard is poised in such a way that even Sigil is coming off as "haters". Exactly what's the difference between a person telling a prospective player here that they need a new PC, that there are LFG problems, and so on when Brad says it all the time in his bi-weekly State of the Union addresses?
All and all, I think the terms "vanbois" and "haters" are mis-used; along with what's "positive" and what's "negative". Especially as of late when folks like Father healz4u injects calls for perfect complacency towards Vanguard in every thread. It's gotten to the point where on these forums, you can be more positive about the game than Sigil, but less positive than some of its accused viral marketers, and be considered a "hater", "troll" or "flamer".
Anyway, as already been mentioned, ultimately the availability of free trial keys is going to solve a lot of problems. These 15 page threads simply ended by a "here, try it yourself." Ultimately, as Cymdai pointed out, that's really what's missing from Sigil's tactic of viral marketing right now; there's a 40 dollar barrier between a prospective player and a Vanguard subscription.
I don't play the game buddy.. So how is my opinion affecting their enjoyment? Not like I am dissing the game in the chat channels.
Oh yeah, wait a minute, you want the whole world to think that shit doesn't stink... I played the Emporer's New Clothes with Vanguard a few months back... Once bitten twice shy. I trust a few folks on this site for their objectivity... Coldmeat is one of them... some proselytizer that just signed up out of the blue to spread the gospel, ain't having one iota of an affect on me.
- You just got here as well. How does any of us know you are not paid by say... the LOTR dev's to try and stop people from playing Vanguard?
see... I have tinfoil in my kitchen also.
And it was folks just like you, that said how great the game was...during beta, during release... constantly... So I don't trust one thing you blind folks say... A little less bullshit, and a little more truth, would have done this game a lot of good.
Look on the bright side... Brad now gets to try out real marketing. It is easy as pie to preach to the converted. It takes someone with real talent to convert the heathens... I will say it flat out.
Brad hasn't got what it takes. He is too used to leading the blind. I know this, because of what he has said in the past, and what he continues to say.
I don't really care either way who likes what and its a shame that mmorpg.com has become some sort of dumping ground for people with an axe to grind.
I canceled my VSoH sub recently but for some reason it just doesnt bother me that anyone else still plays or likes the game.
Originally posted by treysmooth if you wanna know why most of us that enjoy the game don't bother to post over here any more its simple, these boards have such a negative nature now, that why bother. Why should I waste my time making a post just to have it flamed to death by people that in many cases haven't played since month one?
For the last year I've posted on this site frequently but frankly I'm tired of the constant barrage of combative people that spend all their time trying to discredit a game and try to keep everyone away from it.
The biggest problem with these forums is the lack of real information that you can get from the forums.
That my friend is the main problem with the Vanguard forums here, someone post that the game is improving and he is instantly called a shill or a SOE employee or Brad in disguise its laughable.
I respect the opinions of those that respect mine, but there in lies the problem, there is no respect from many of those that hate the game and yes they often will blatantly lie about things. If you haven't played since the first month then how do you know it isn't improving. When someone says the game is crap that is opinion but if I say the game is pretty good I'm flamed and basically told that I'm wrong and yes I have been told that I'm lying to myself and couldn't be having fun.
To each his or her own
Regards
Trey
First, I actually did not open this Topic because I thought it was another "flame" Topic by a "troll" who was going to state that people currently playing the game are misleading; that is how bad it is that I will not even open some Topics.
Second, Trey, you make one of the most well reasoned and clearly articulated posts I have read since joining here. I completely agree with you that people that currently play this game "will not bother" to post here. Reasonable people will not subject themselves to personal attacks, flaming, and trolling simply because they play (and might enjoy) the game.
Third, I consider it being "Sane in an Insane Place" when you are trying to discuss the progress the game has made but you are deliberately attacked by willful and wanton trollers/flamers. I am so accustomed to it, and I have so many blocked, that is does not even really impact me anymore. I have started to use other forums and maybe visit here once or twice a day as opposed to multiple times each day.
Last, my theory is that the flaming and trolling has a lot less to do with the game (Vanguard, SWG, et al.) than it does with people's very real complex personal issues. The anger is obviously misdirected, and sometimes the target of their anger are people that currently play the game and try to talk about improvements and enhancements.
In conclusion, to sound like "them," I PREDICTED THIS (rofl). I predicted that people that currently play the game will gradually not bother to use MMORPG and we are witnessing that. The incredible value of MMORPG as a resource for "information" has become a sewer of flaming and trolling that is simply abnormal. In fact, I was not even going to bother visiting MMORPG today, and I am gradually getting out of the habit of doing it. I wish that were not necessary.
Lol, you are the biggest hyprocrite I've read on these forums. You attack me in my thread for not showing diehard statistical proof, yet you "claim" that many players don't visit mmorpg.com to garner information. Pot, meet kettle, and call him black. You don't even play this game yet you continue to post your "opinion" on what others write. And here's the kicker. I bet most of the "anger" isn't directed at curernt players; it's directed at the devs for what was supposed to be a great game, but wiht sriously scaled down features, and IT IS a pay to play beta. Period. None of us that dislike the game give a rat's ass whether the players read the forums or not. It's not their minds we are about. IT'S THE NEW PEOPLE THAT SHOULDN'T HAVE TO BE DUPED INTO THINKING THIS IS THE BEST GAME EVER RELEASED AND HAVE TO GO WASTE $50 + SUB MONEY TO LEARN THE HARD WAY THEIR SYSTEM WON'T RUN IT GREAT ETC. It's ok, you keep living in your dream world, and keep blocking people too. You were the kid who stood in th corner in school and covered your ears and said "NAH NAHNAHNANHAHN I CAN'T HEAR YOUUUU"... Good luck with that. And take your own advice and stay out of the forums!! You look like a bigger fool for saying you'll stay away, then having to come back in to insert your .01 cents (not .02, because that's too genrous) in a thread.
I don't play the game buddy.. So how is my opinion affecting their enjoyment? Not like I am dissing the game in the chat channels.
Oh yeah, wait a minute, you want the whole world to think that shit doesn't stink... I played the Emporer's New Clothes with Vanguard a few months back... Once bitten twice shy. I trust a few folks on this site for their objectivity... Coldmeat is one of them... some proselytizer that just signed up out of the blue to spread the gospel, ain't having one iota of an affect on me.
- You just got here as well. How does any of us know you are not paid by say... the LOTR dev's to try and stop people from playing Vanguard?
see... I have tinfoil in my kitchen also.
And it was folks just like you, that said how great the game was...during beta, during release... constantly... So I don't trust one thing you blind folks say... A little less bullshit, and a little more truth, would have done this game a lot of good.
Look on the bright side... Brad now gets to try out real marketing. It is easy as pie to preach to the converted. It takes someone with real talent to convert the heathens... I will say it flat out.
Brad hasn't got what it takes. He is too used to leading the blind. I know this, because of what he has said in the past, and what he continues to say.
I don't really care either way who likes what and its a shame that mmorpg.com has become some sort of dumping ground for people with an axe to grind.
I canceled my VSoH sub recently but for some reason it just doesnt bother me that anyone else still plays or likes the game.Lol, you think that I think the beligerantly blind fanboi is paid by Sigil?
Sadly, I know they do it for free. Deception is deception though, whether you are paid or not. The game ain't getting sold to Sony because it is excellent, put it that way.
Originally posted by Aurelyn Originally posted by sniper48101 Originally posted by Aurelyn I don't play the game buddy.. So how is my opinion affecting their enjoyment? Not like I am dissing the game in the chat channels.Oh yeah, wait a minute, you want the whole world to think that shit doesn't stink... I played the Emporer's New Clothes with Vanguard a few months back... Once bitten twice shy. I trust a few folks on this site for their objectivity... Coldmeat is one of them... some proselytizer that just signed up out of the blue to spread the gospel, ain't having one iota of an affect on me.- You just got here as well. How does any of us know you are not paid by say... the LOTR dev's to try and stop people from playing Vanguard? see... I have tinfoil in my kitchen also.
And it was folks just like you, that said how great the game was...during beta, during release... constantly... So I don't trust one thing you blind folks say... A little less bullshit, and a little more truth, would have done this game a lot of good.Look on the bright side... Brad now gets to try out real marketing. It is easy as pie to preach to the converted. It takes someone with real talent to convert the heathens... I will say it flat out.Brad hasn't got what it takes. He is too used to leading the blind. I know this, because of what he has said in the past, and what he continues to say.
I don't really care either way who likes what and its a shame that mmorpg.com has become some sort of dumping ground for people with an axe to grind.
I canceled my VSoH sub recently but for some reason it just doesnt bother me that anyone else still plays or likes the game.
Lol, you think that I think the beligerantly blind fanboi is paid by Sigil?
Sadly, I know they do it for free. Deception is deception though, whether you are paid or not. The game ain't getting sold to Sony because it is excellent, put it that way.
Blind? Guys said he doesn't play and doesn't care anyone else does. i.e. He isnt a moron.
Now playing: VG (after a long break from MMORPGS) Played for more than a month: Darkfall online, Vanguard SOH, Everquest, Horizons, WoW, SWG, Everquest II, Eve
If the players don't read these forums do you really thing that anyone at Sigil would read them then. I mean, I wouldn't visit a forum full of people that hated and lied about my product if there wasn't at least a few people there that enjoyed it.
I would have to agree that many players don't visit this forum for information. First there has to be information here for them to visit, and since you can't post information without it turning out just as this thread and every other one on this forum.
Me, I don't mind you guys hating. Gives me something to do when I'm not playing an MMO. I just disagree with lying.
Well, I personally would take a different approach.
I think Sigil should have a close look at these forums. Let them see what they're up against, know why people are as mad as they are, and what can be done to correct/remedy the hatred.
Here is one of the issues with MMORPG.com at the current point in time, you as a staff writer are of course going to be swayed by your own personal opinions as everyone is, but.... instead of trying to moderate discussions and keep people on topic you seem to fan the flames and through your post add fuel to the fire of those that are the problem with this site currently.
I find a huge difference between a discussion with opposing views and what generally goes on in these forums. People routinely attack other people and accuse them of being a paid shill or part of the game staff. As silly as these remarks are they add nothing to the discussion and usually send the thread further into the muck, where the childish name-calling and flaming intensifies. YOU as a staff writer should be there to A. get people back on topic and B. Moderate those that decide that a civilized conversation is beyond their capabilities. Instead of helping the situation you often make post that read more like a player scorned than a staff writer for a very popular mmo forum.
I'll address your view that they should take a different view of the hostile environment on mmorpg.com and why I believe they won't use your line of thinking.
Point 1 This isn't simply a issue that exist in the Vanguard forums, this is a site wide pattern of behavior that basically runs rampant through all threads involving all games and all areas of discussion.
Point 2 If you truly wade through what amounts to threads that often go double digit page wise deep and are often repeated, there is very little viable information to be gained on REAL complaints or reasons for the hate. No I don't count it was released to early or it ran poorly at launch as viable complaints, why? because they are no longer legit concerns for the CURRENT state of the game. Yes the game was released to early, Yes it ran poorly at launch but unless Sigil plans on bending the rules of time and space this may be a tough one to magically fix.
Point 3 Those that make the most noise often hate for no other reason but to hate, sort of related to point 2 but hear me out. I know of multiple people that come into the threads simply to bash the game, not because they played it and disliked it, not because it ran poorly on their system, but because they hate SOE and anything that has to do with the company.
Guess what I loathe SOE as a company but when I look at the mmo's currently available I had to look at what was out there and decide if I would let the game I enjoy pass me by or would I simply tolerate the company to enjoy the product that they are apart of, I chose the later.
Here again Sigil can't really gather much wisdom from a certain poster who makes one line post and might just have a female jedi image in there signature when their post amount to I hope the game dies because SOE once screwed me over. I use that particular person as an example as they are very combative, never try to make any sort of point and are simply posting to piss others off and continue their unhealthy obsession with what SOE did to them at one time, long long ago... in a galaxy far away. Honestly what do you expect them to take away from spending hours thumbing through sophomoric flames between disgruntled people. Well I guess we chose the wrong publisher, again can't be changed and pointless to harp on it.
Point 4 If I remember correctly the people at Sigil tried to post and have open feedback with the people that frequent these forums but the usual people come out of the woodwork and flooded the threads to the point that they probably had to step back and say am I gaining anything from this or am I simply wasting time, well they made their choice.
Before you start proclaiming "all the answers" you might wanna consider what already has taken place and what has led to the current state of MMORPG.com in the eyes of some of your fans as well as developers. To me a little professionalism goes a long way, in this thread you are hearing from not just people with a few post but people such as myself and those like me that have made many post over a significant amount of time, something to consider before you starting profiling all of us as those pesky viral marketers that you seem so sure we must be.
Instead of helping the situation you often make post that read more like a player scorned than a staff writer for a very popular mmo forum.
Ever give thought to the fact that it isn't his job to moderate the forums, or at least when he posts here, he's doing so as a player? He's said it a thousand times, and his signature is there in every post to deter such spiels as yours. Are you just choosing to ignore it?
Anyway, you missed the point about the value of Sigil lookin' at these forums. The negativity here isn't anything new, its the same thing going on at SilkyVenom and every other affiliate site. So if MMORPG.com isn't enough to convince you that a systemic, negative consensus exists for this game throughout the MMO community at large, then please do go to those other forums after selecting the most hate-filled useless post you've found here, and try to not find the exact same thing if not worse over at SilkyVenom.
Even if Cymdal were a moderator and it was his job to take upon a staff persona here, it's only MMORPG.com's job to provide an ethical framework for people's posting. The closest thing the "haters" are in violation of on a daily basis is "trolling", but you know what? It's usually due to responding to "trolling" from others who invade threads with the same ol' "Vanguard is a thousand times better than launch. It has potential. It's only going to get better and better." At least the "haters" usually have a laundry list of reasons why they make their claims, while some others seem to hinge their trolling on nothing more than hopes and dreams.
The point is, MMORPG.com's policies are constructed in such a way that justly, one's attitude towards a game, be it favorable or unfavorable, has jack to do with a poster's standing when it comes to the rules. It isn't MMORPG.com's job to quell the "hate" Vanguard receives, nor any other board, it's up to Sigil to quell it. Conveniently, there's only one way to do that...fix everything that the "haters" complain about in Vanguard.
This isn't just a Vanguard problem its a forum wide problem and thats my point. Take it however you like but how many civil discussions stay civil in any thread about any game. When Sigil looks at how the threads here usually develop there is definitely a problem. I would agree Silky Venom isn't exactly a peaceful place at the moment but that doesn't mean mmorpg.com can't be. Those that dislike the game aren't the problem and I actually made that clear, its those that try to start things in whatever area of the forum they are in. Feel free to disagree with me but thats my take.
The other issue is more opinion does enjoying Vanguard make me a viral marketer for the game, hardly its simply the game I enjoy atm, but many take cheap shots at anyone that say anything positive about the game. My comment toward the Staff writer was to more point out that he fuels the fire when it comes to post such as those. The way he words it is as if anyone that might say something positive has an agenda, and this is hardly true.
Honestly I'm not here to convince anyone to play the game, thats not my job, I'm simply here to post my opinion like anyone else. I do it in a civil manner and expect others to try to do the same, if thats asking to much I guess maybe I hold people to a higher standard than I should. In that way I won't change and I don't feel I should have to. There are many games I don't really care for that I've played in the past but I don't make it my cause to bring them down through any means necessary. Many times I post my thoughts of the game and move on, not that I expect everyone to do it that way but if you want to bring something to the discussion, do so, and try to do it with some tact.
Take my post with a grain of salt but over the last year I've seen a change in the way threads develop here, maybe its the fact MMO's have become more mainstream and draw a much larger crowd, I don't know, I do know that flame wars and childish cheap-shots are not what brought me to mmorpg.com to begin with.
Comments
Second, Trey, you make one of the most well reasoned and clearly articulated posts I have read since joining here. I completely agree with you that people that currently play this game "will not bother" to post here. Reasonable people will not subject themselves to personal attacks, flaming, and trolling simply because they play (and might enjoy) the game.
Third, I consider it being "Sane in an Insane Place" when you are trying to discuss the progress the game has made but you are deliberately attacked by willful and wanton trollers/flamers. I am so accustomed to it, and I have so many blocked, that is does not even really impact me anymore. I have started to use other forums and maybe visit here once or twice a day as opposed to multiple times each day.
Last, my theory is that the flaming and trolling has a lot less to do with the game (Vanguard, SWG, et al.) than it does with people's very real complex personal issues. The anger is obviously misdirected, and sometimes the target of their anger are people that currently play the game and try to talk about improvements and enhancements.
In conclusion, to sound like "them," I PREDICTED THIS (rofl). I predicted that people that currently play the game will gradually not bother to use MMORPG and we are witnessing that. The incredible value of MMORPG as a resource for "information" has become a sewer of flaming and trolling that is simply abnormal. In fact, I was not even going to bother visiting MMORPG today, and I am gradually getting out of the habit of doing it. I wish that were not necessary.
Second, Trey, you make one of the most well reasoned and clearly articulated posts I have read since joining here. I completely agree with you that people that currently play this game "will not bother" to post here. Reasonable people will not subject themselves to personal attacks, flaming, and trolling simply because they play (and might enjoy) the game.
Third, I consider it being "Sane in an Insane Place" when you are trying to discuss the progress the game has made but you are deliberately attacked by willful and wanton trollers/flamers. I am so accustomed to it, and I have so many blocked, that is does not even really impact me anymore. I have started to use other forums and maybe visit here once or twice a day as opposed to multiple times each day.
Last, my theory is that the flaming and trolling has a lot less to do with the game (Vanguard, SWG, et al.) than it does with people's very real complex personal issues. The anger is obviously misdirected, and sometimes the target of their anger are people that currently play the game and try to talk about improvements and enhancements.
In conclusion, to sound like "them," I PREDICTED THIS (rofl). I predicted that people that currently play the game will gradually not bother to use MMORPG and we are witnessing that. The incredible value of MMORPG as a resource for "information" has become a sewer of flaming and trolling that is simply abnormal. In fact, I was not even going to bother visiting MMORPG today, and I am gradually getting out of the habit of doing it. I wish that were not necessary.
Lol, you are the biggest hyprocrite I've read on these forums. You attack me in my thread for not showing diehard statistical proof, yet you "claim" that many players don't visit mmorpg.com to garner information. Pot, meet kettle, and call him black. You don't even play this game yet you continue to post your "opinion" on what others write. And here's the kicker. I bet most of the "anger" isn't directed at curernt players; it's directed at the devs for what was supposed to be a great game, but wiht sriously scaled down features, and IT IS a pay to play beta. Period. None of us that dislike the game give a rat's ass whether the players read the forums or not. It's not their minds we are about. IT'S THE NEW PEOPLE THAT SHOULDN'T HAVE TO BE DUPED INTO THINKING THIS IS THE BEST GAME EVER RELEASED AND HAVE TO GO WASTE $50 + SUB MONEY TO LEARN THE HARD WAY THEIR SYSTEM WON'T RUN IT GREAT ETC. It's ok, you keep living in your dream world, and keep blocking people too. You were the kid who stood in th corner in school and covered your ears and said "NAH NAHNAHNANHAHN I CAN'T HEAR YOUUUU"... Good luck with that. And take your own advice and stay out of the forums!! You look like a bigger fool for saying you'll stay away, then having to come back in to insert your .01 cents (not .02, because that's too genrous) in a thread.
Second, Trey, you make one of the most well reasoned and clearly articulated posts I have read since joining here. I completely agree with you that people that currently play this game "will not bother" to post here. Reasonable people will not subject themselves to personal attacks, flaming, and trolling simply because they play (and might enjoy) the game.
Third, I consider it being "Sane in an Insane Place" when you are trying to discuss the progress the game has made but you are deliberately attacked by willful and wanton trollers/flamers. I am so accustomed to it, and I have so many blocked, that is does not even really impact me anymore. I have started to use other forums and maybe visit here once or twice a day as opposed to multiple times each day.
Last, my theory is that the flaming and trolling has a lot less to do with the game (Vanguard, SWG, et al.) than it does with people's very real complex personal issues. The anger is obviously misdirected, and sometimes the target of their anger are people that currently play the game and try to talk about improvements and enhancements.
In conclusion, to sound like "them," I PREDICTED THIS (rofl). I predicted that people that currently play the game will gradually not bother to use MMORPG and we are witnessing that. The incredible value of MMORPG as a resource for "information" has become a sewer of flaming and trolling that is simply abnormal. In fact, I was not even going to bother visiting MMORPG today, and I am gradually getting out of the habit of doing it. I wish that were not necessary.
Lol, you are the biggest hyprocrite I've read on these forums. You attack me in my thread for not showing diehard statistical proof, yet you "claim" that many players don't visit mmorpg.com to garner information. Pot, meet kettle, and call him black. You don't even play this game yet you continue to post your "opinion" on what others write. And here's the kicker. I bet most of the "anger" isn't directed at curernt players; it's directed at the devs for what was supposed to be a great game, but wiht sriously scaled down features, and IT IS a pay to play beta. Period. None of us that dislike the game give a rat's ass whether the players read the forums or not. It's not their minds we are about. IT'S THE NEW PEOPLE THAT SHOULDN'T HAVE TO BE DUPED INTO THINKING THIS IS THE BEST GAME EVER RELEASED AND HAVE TO GO WASTE $50 + SUB MONEY TO LEARN THE HARD WAY THEIR SYSTEM WON'T RUN IT GREAT ETC. It's ok, you keep living in your dream world, and keep blocking people too. You were the kid who stood in th corner in school and covered your ears and said "NAH NAHNAHNANHAHN I CAN'T HEAR YOUUUU"... Good luck with that. And take your own advice and stay out of the forums!! You look like a bigger fool for saying you'll stay away, then having to come back in to insert your .01 cents (not .02, because that's too genrous) in a thread.
Well I can see why you're angry, and rightly so. I mean if I read about a game and managed to get duped into thinking it was the best game ever released, I would be mad as well.
Just a few things.
Healz plays the game; if you were accually reading his posts you would know that. Reading comprehension for the win.
You may be angry with the devs, but every time someone makes a post that they enjoy the game it is they that are attacked. So yes, you direct your anger at the players. Also you didn't say none of the anger, you said most of the anger. Why should we be the focus of ANY of your anger. We didn't wrong you, we didn't make you buy the game. We didn't make the game; so why direct ANY amount of hate at us?
I don't ever recall reading that my hardware would run any game great, just that it will run. Yeah, yeah, yeah we've already been through the system requirements thing, but it's kind of a silly comment to make. Great just seems like a pretty high expectation. We're not playing on a console.
You're really not in any position to call someone else a hypocrit after making a post like this.
If the players don't read these forums do you really thing that anyone at Sigil would read them then. I mean, I wouldn't visit a forum full of people that hated and lied about my product if there wasn't at least a few people there that enjoyed it.
I would have to agree that many players don't visit this forum for information. First there has to be information here for them to visit, and since you can't post information without it turning out just as this thread and every other one on this forum.
Me, I don't mind you guys hating. Gives me something to do when I'm not playing an MMO. I just disagree with lying.
I think Sigil should have a close look at these forums. Let them see what they're up against, know why people are as mad as they are, and what can be done to correct/remedy the hatred.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
I think Sigil should have a close look at these forums. Let them see what they're up against, know why people are as mad as they are, and what can be done to correct/remedy the hatred.
Considering that you're on record as saying that you are suspicious of anyone who posts anything positive about Vanguard here, I'm not sure why you'd think anyone from Sigil would waste his time here. You are already admittedly prejudiced against Vanguard, so why should Sigil take anything you say seriously? And you claim that 80% of the members here have tried Vanguard and rejected it... I'm sure this kind of unsubstantiated hyperbole is of limitless value to Sigil. And despite what your clever sig may say, the things you post do reflect upon this site as a whole - at least to people like me, who are relative newcomers here. There is basically nothing worthwhile that MMORPG com can contribute to Vanguard at this point, and your posts certainly don't help either.
I think Sigil should have a close look at these forums. Let them see what they're up against, know why people are as mad as they are, and what can be done to correct/remedy the hatred.
Considering that you're on record as saying that you are suspicious of anyone who posts anything positive about Vanguard here, I'm not sure why you'd think anyone from Sigil would waste his time here. You are already admittedly prejudiced against Vanguard, so why should Sigil take anything you say seriously? And you claim that 80% of the members here have tried Vanguard and rejected it... I'm sure this kind of unsubstantiated hyperbole is of limitless value to Sigil. And despite what your clever sig may say, the things you post do reflect upon this site as a whole - at least to people like me, who are relative newcomers here. There is basically nothing worthwhile that MMORPG com can contribute to Vanguard at this point, and your posts certainly don't help either. Not that any positive posting from Sigil would remedy any "hatred" here in the first place. I think you missed the point.
Vanguard improves in no way from idle positive posts; a constructive point from a "hater" detailing what's lacking or wrong in Vanguard is more useful to a developer than praise from a perfectly complacent fan over what aspect of the game is working correctly.
As for all the criticism towards MMORPG.com; have you been to SilkyVenom lately? Are the posts there really that different? The only difference between SilkyVenom and MMORPG.com is that SilkyVenom is a dedicated affiliate site, and a hub of developer activity. It still sees a share of negative posts day to day that's no different from what's seen here. Heck, a good amount of the posts started here begin by citing what's already been said over at SilkyVenom (e.g. all the recent broken patch, super cleric talks).
There's also other things you can complain about if you want MMORPG.com to become a full-fledged Vanguard fansite; such as the lack of specialized forums for crafting and servers, or their seemingly disinterest in being apart of the affiliate site program. Of all the things MMORPG.com lacks in being as being a viable contribution towards Vanguard; you start with accusing the one aspect it shares with some of the developers' prime posting spots? I'll buy all that negativity mess when Vanguard's subscriptions ramp up, SilkyVenom no longer holds negative posts itself, and Brad never again posts on fohguild.org.
'til then, I don't see why MMORPG.com should set out to set any kind of examples in striving for absolute positivity; it isn't the cesspit you believe it to be; head over to SilkyVenom's Volcano for that.
I was recently able to get a buddy key, and just finished the free 14-day trial. I'm definitely glad I tried it, and saw for myself what the real deal was on this game. First thing I noticed and have to mention are the graphics. To me, they are the best I've ever seen in an mmo. I tried LOTRO and thought that it was best looking mmorpg yet (environment-wise anyway, the character and gear graphics look like ass in LOTRO imo), but Vanguard definitely beats it in looks. I was able to run the game at it's highest settings everywhere I went with very good frame-rates except when in towns and there were a lot of players on screen. Then I'd just turn down a couple things in the settings and it ran smoothly (8800gts 640mb, c2d 6600, 2g RAM, 1680x1050). The quests were engaging for the most part, and there were a ton of things to do. However, I did find a couple quests that weren't quite right, and It takes a while to get into the main story line. I really liked the combat in this game. It kept me more involved than most other mmorpgs have. One thing that was lacking in the game though, and the only reason I somewhat hesitate to buy the full version, is that the number of other players online can be really low at times, and we all know how much it sucks when you're unable to finish something beacause you can't find anybody to team up with. If half the things that people were saying about this game at launch were true, then this game has taken leaps and bounds improvement-wise in just a few months. As the OP said, if you haven't tried this game in awhile, or are thinking about trying it, I strongly recommend you give it a shot.
Oh, If you've got nothing better to do than to bitch about, and insult people who like a damn video game that you don't like, you're fucking lame.
Peace!
I think Sigil should have a close look at these forums. Let them see what they're up against, know why people are as mad as they are, and what can be done to correct/remedy the hatred.
I can accually agree with this. The only problem I see is that a lot of the people that are mad don't articulate very well what it is that they are upset about. Just look at the post I quoted and the wording used.
I can understand being frustrated with bugs and poor performance, and canceling for those reasons. But a lot of what I keep hearing is people just don't like the game. Take the performance out, the bugs out and most of the people that quit still wouldn't play the game. Not all now, just most in my opinion.
I can see if it's people that truelly WANT to play the game, but for whatever reason they can't. But that's not the impression I get from a lot of the posters here.
Maybe it's a patience (sp?) thing. Maybe the people that like it are just more patient, and willing to wait things out. I am. I mean, the game was released early, and I don't really expect everything to be there now, and I'm willing to wait.
Aside from that though. I still say, if you got the system and can get over the few bugs you might run into; then VG could be for you. It's all about taste. It's either you or it's not.
I think Sigil should have a close look at these forums. Let them see what they're up against, know why people are as mad as they are, and what can be done to correct/remedy the hatred.
Not only these forums but this thread sums up the anger--> www.fohguild.org/forums/retard-rickshaw-hall-shame/27044-why-all-nerd-rage-against-vanguard.html
Even Brad made several posts in that thread and explains why he thinks people are angry.
I think Sigil should have a close look at these forums. Let them see what they're up against, know why people are as mad as they are, and what can be done to correct/remedy the hatred.
Not only these forums but this thread sums up the anger--> www.fohguild.org/forums/retard-rickshaw-hall-shame/27044-why-all-nerd-rage-against-vanguard.html
Even Brad made several posts in that thread and explains why he thinks people are angry.
Man! That thread is 150+ pages long! Lol, can you get a link to wich one is Brad. It'll take me hafl the night to find it.
I think Sigil should have a close look at these forums. Let them see what they're up against, know why people are as mad as they are, and what can be done to correct/remedy the hatred.
Not only these forums but this thread sums up the anger--> www.fohguild.org/forums/retard-rickshaw-hall-shame/27044-why-all-nerd-rage-against-vanguard.html
Even Brad made several posts in that thread and explains why he thinks people are angry.
Man! That thread is 150+ pages long! Lol, can you get a link to wich one is Brad. It'll take me hafl the night to find it.
Here is Brad's post as an answer to the topic: www.fohguild.org/forums/retard-rickshaw-hall-shame/27044-why-all-nerd-rage-against-vanguard-43.html#post682090. He has many more posts in that thread however.
This game is nowhere near as bad as many people on this board are saying. To me, it has a very Velious like feel to it. Alot of the old mechanics in Eq1 (like kiting but with more risk) are back in VG. The gameplay seems a bit more free than we are getting in other MMO's (like Eq2). The classes are fresh, and we are either seeing new classes or new takes on classes.
The only two things I don't like about this game are TLC and performance. TLC is self-explanatory. As far as performance goes, it was so bad in beta that I deleted my VG off of my hard drive. With a medium level comp (3200 Athlon, ATI 9950 graphics card and 1 gig ram) I was only getting a pathetic 5 fps. However, since launch, I decided to give VG a second try. I added a gig of ram and put an NVIDIA 7800 GS OC, and am getting 25 to 30 fps with the graphics reso on the highest setting and the display set to balanced (and this is while fighting in the city). My new rig is hardly state of the art, but is running VG fine. I played for four hours last night with no probs until midnight where the server started glitching. Assuming they fix this, I think VG will be fine.
I started playing VG with very low expectations for it, other than I could add it to my Station Access and play it with Eq2 (and I planned on adding the DC MMO and other upcoming MMOs for a flat fee). The posters on this board lowered my expectations on the game with their rants on how VG sucked. I am finding this game to be much better than they said, and am wondering how many others of you think that VG has been better than the poor word of mouth it received throughout beta.
Well said and a great question and certainly one we think about. I think there are misconceptions out there about the game and our intent. Our heritage making EQ 1 makes it so a lot of people automatically assume the game is only for the hardcore. I posted here and elsewhere (on other boards and our own message boards) for months before release talking about how the game is for casual, core, and hardcore players and our belief they can all co-exist in the same game. Unfortunately, a lot of people didn't read those posts and assume Vanguard is more hard core because EQ 1 was. I think I failed in reaching out to a lot of people and spreading the word that this game is NOT hard core like the original EQ 1. I probably spent more time talking about the game to those already interested in it than reaching out to those who were not. Ah well, hindsight is 20/20.
A lot of people wanted a new game that was like EQ 1 up to the Velious period and I and others described Vanguard thusly. The good part of that is we got those people excited about the game. The bad part was that people who didn't follow the game as closely didn't hear the complete message, that being that the game also has lots of content for casual and core gamers -- it was like when I posted, I was just preaching to the choir. People who didn't follow the message boards and only heard that Vanguard was made by the original EQ guys made assumptions that Vanguard would be just like EQ and require tons of time to play, that you had to raid, that you had to group constantly, etc.
Like I said, that message resonated with a lot of people in a positive way, but it also did harm in that those people who don't want another EQ 1 were turned off when they heard about Vanguard but not all of the details behind the game. There were and are also a lot of 'Vanbois' who spread the word that this game was not for WoW players and that people who like a more casual game like WoW were not welcome in Vanguard. In that sense, the messaging backfired and many people aren't even giving the game a chance.
I think we could have reached out to those people on other boards in a better way and made sure people knew that casual gamers are indeed welcome in Vanguard. I also think that after level 12ish people are feeling that they have to group, and that is something we need to address. We also need better LFG tools so that people can find groups. We were over-worried that the newbie areas would be over crowded and now we face some under population as people level up and spread out over the large world that is Telon. That is why we are working on making the LFG tools better, looking into adding some overland teleportation, etc. Under population is actually worse than over population because it can be difficult to find people to play with and this hurts community building.
We also need to change our messaging in ads, both online and in print, and attempt to dispel the assumption some people are making that Vanguard is only hardcore. In reality we very much understand that the gamespace has grown and evolved. People who had a lot of time on their hands and played a ton of EQ have grown up, got jobs, families, etc. Even those who played EQ a ton of hours and had a blast for years playing that game now are in situations where while they had fun with EQ want a different game that requires less overall time invested and especially less amounts of contiguous time and the ability to play more casually. Like I said, I think we need to make some changes to the game (nothing fundamental, but some tweaks here and there), but the even bigger problem is that many people aren't even trying the game out because they've already made up their minds that Vanguard = EQ 1.
Some of this will be addressed through viral marketing. As those who are playing the game enjoy Vanguard, they will tell their friends that this game is not as hard core and nearly as tedious as EQ 1. This will help, but I also think we need to be more proactive in spreading the word about what Vanguard is really like. Heck, even people who are giving the game a chance have misconceptions. I was grouped around level 10 and we got into a situation where we were in the floating cities above Jalen's Crossing and died a few times and just couldn't get back to our corpses to do a CR. We ending up dying several times. I said forget it, and went to the altar and just summoned my corpse to me (something you could NOT do in EQ 1). I advised the others in my pick-up group to do the same and they didn't know you could do that! They thought you HAD to CR, just like EQ 1. Man, that was an eye-opener. I think there are people who truly believe you either have to CR or that the penalties for summoning your corpse to the altar are so bad that you never want to do it. And it some cases, at higher levels, and depending on what mob you die to, the penalties *are* too severe, and we need to make some changes. But just as importantly, perhaps even more importantly, we need to get the word out that you don't have to CR in the vast majority of cases, and that also in the vast majority of cases summoning your corpse to the altar where you pop up when you die does NOT include a heinous penalty; rather, that's why we put that functionality in there. Having to CR in Vanguard is the exception, not the rule -- only in fighting extremely difficult mobs where you and your party knowingly accept the risk vs. reward of fighting specific boss mobs likely in the depths of dungeons do you take the risk of having to CR (or get your corpse dragged out) assuming you totally wipe and don't have someone who survives on hand to resurrect you. And I think that's just one powerful example of false assumptions that are being made about the game, either by people playing it (who may get frustrated when they actually don't have to) or by people who have heard about the game and figure, again, that it's hardcore and an old school MMOG with updated graphics. Ah! This is frustrating, but we will get the message out.
No, we're not talking about changing the game to be a lot more similar to WoW. We're not trying to make a WoW clone. The game is more challenging, and it does take longer to level up, but not a lot longer really -- we've timed it. And the additional challenge is optional -- you don't have to play Vanguard the way you had to play earlier MMOGs unless you want to. So as long as we can make leveling up less tedious, make sure there are ways to advance even if you only have a little time that day to play, etc. I think we'll be in good shape.
There are a lot of emotions out there. Strong ones. You have people, like I mentioned, that while they enjoyed EQ 1 back in the day, want a game that has the good parts of EQ 1 but not the tedious nature of it, or the necessity to play crazy hours, or to raid constantly. Those people I think, or at least most of them, will enjoy Vanguard if they give it a chance. But first we need to penetrate these assumptions and perceptions.
Then there's the whole WoW vs Vanguard issue where many people think that if they enjoy WoW they won't like Vanguard or vice versa. This is in part again to those pre-conceptions, but also our fan base has contributed to this stereotype. (sorry Vanguard fans, I don't mean to generalize here, but there has been a negative vibe, a polarizing vibe, even with me and others posting that this game is inclusive not exclusive).
Then there's the issue that Vanguard is a different game and won't appeal to everyone. Some people like that, and some people don't. It was always our desire to make a game where casual, core, and hard core players could co-exist and you can certainly solo or play casually in Vanguard and have a great time. But then there are also people who simply don't want to group. We need to make sure as many of those people can and will still have fun in Vanguard. Again, the game isn't designed to appeal to everyone and some casual players won't like Vanguard no matter what. And that's ok -- we didn't set out to make a game that is all things to all people. But I think quite a few people who have inaccurate preconceptions about the game actually will enjoy the game if they give it a chance. In fact, I know quite a few. The challenge is to get them to try it.
Then there are some of the controversial aspects of Vanguard -- a huge world with hopefully meaningful travel, no instancing, etc. When some people hear about these aspects of Vanguard that seem 'retro' they automatically assume the game isn't for them, that it's old school and that we decided to ignore modern MMOGs and were stuck blindly in the past when designing this game. We need to reach out to those people and explain where we embraced modern MMOG ideas and concepts but also why we chose to build on 'older' foundations, not because we're stubbornly set in our ways, but more so because Vanguard needs to be something different, and a combination of new, revolutionary ideas combined with an evolutionary and proven foundation. And the 'vision' can and does change and learn -- as we've mentioned, we are seriously considering some overland teleportation to take some of the tediousness out of travel. We can and will adapt, and we can do so without making a game that is a clone of another game -- the MMOG gamespace is certainly large and mature enough to support games with their own identity and also large enough where people deserve choices. So overall I think a lot of people will end up enjoying the game once they give it a chance.
In a sense the more controversial aspects of Vanguard have been a blessing and a curse. The game is selling very well, but it could do even better if we could get this message out, that more casual people can and are enjoying the game -- that soloing or playing in small groups is a viable and fun way to play the game. Yes, you can get more rewards out of grouping and Vanguard is a game mostly targeted at the core gamer who enjoys grouping. But again, that's not mutually exclusive with casual gamers having fun too.
We also included features that appeal to more casual players and players with different tastes. We have a robust and fun crafting and harvesting system. We have diplomacy which is enjoyable and is done soloing. We put in housing and the ability to own mounts and ships because we wanted to get the UO/SWG player to enjoy the game as well, and not just the EQ 1 player. But again, getting that message out to those who didn't frequent our official boards before release has been a challenge.
We made it clear how Vanguard differs from other more modern MMOGs. I think this has had both positive and negative effects. It attracted many people who wanted a modern MMOG that is still built on the tried and true foundation of older MMOGs and MUDs. But then it also created controversy and assumptions that Vanguard was just another EQ 1 with updated graphics. In reality, while the game does build on the past, it's also different and takes into account that the gamespace has evolved and that many players don't want a total re-hash of the past. So again, this appealed to those who followed the game closely before launch, but at the same time created misconceptions amongst those who didn't follow the game as closely.
Sometimes controversy is good, and sometimes it's bad. Again, I think better messaging and viral marketing will help here. But to answer your question, I think that's why there's been such polarizing opinions out there -- the Vanguard lovers and haters. EQ 1 created so many emotions, both positive and negative. In fact, I don't know if there's been another game where people have become so emotional both while playing and after they'd finished playing. I still run into people and when they find out my involvement with EQ I tense up a little bit, not knowing if they'll get all excited and tell me about all the great times they had, all the people they met and are still friends with, or how they met their spouse in-game, thanking me profusely for producing the game... or if they'll look at me in a not so friendly way and make sure I know how they dropped out of college, or how the game, in their opinion, caused friction between them and their loved ones, etc. So we need to reach out to the 'haters' because I know a lot of them would love Vanguard if they gave it a chance -- Vanguard is truly a game where we learned from the past and we know people have changed. I know people who were burned out years ago with EQ 1 style games but who love Vanguard, so I know this is doable. It's just easier said than done.
Then there's the issue of us releasing a bit early because of us having to release when we did due to financial issues. And then there's the fact that we released so close to the WoW expansion. That didn't help either, at least short term. I am confident though that as people finish up with the expansion, that many WoW gamers will migrate to Vanguard. People want something new in their lives, and that includes MMOGs. WoW is a fantastic game, but Vanguard is designed with additional polish but also additional depth and freedom to experience more from a virtual world.
So while the game continues to sell well and churn is low, I think we could have done even better had we more effectively addressed what you mentioned and what I talked about above. I'm not worried -- I know Vanguard is a great game and getting better every patch. But at the same time, I'm not as happy as I could be about the negativity and controversy surrounding the game, when we launched the game, etc. We will recover and get the message out, of that I am certain. And in a sense, we did know some of this would happen -- again, there are those drawn to Vanguard because of our EQ heritage, but we also knew that there would be those who would be turned off by that same heritage. The answer is like I said to get better messaging out there, to reach out to those people, to have those who did buy the game and who are enjoying it spread the word to the more cautious or cynical MMOG gamers.
I think we have three groups of people we want to target with this game.
1. People who look back at EQ fondly and want a new game that is built on the foundation and heritage we have. Those people are primarily the ones buying the game and playing it like crazy.
2. People who look back at EQ and either never enjoyed it or enjoyed it immensely but whose lives have changed and don't want to play an updated EQ 1. I think a great number of those people can be reached and will end up playing the game and enjoying it. We learned a lot over the years, from our triumphs and mistakes. Challenge doesn't have to equal tedium. Advancement doesn't have to mean tons of contiguous hours played, families and jobs ignored, etc. Some people within this group are simply done with games like Vanguard period, but I think a lot of them aren't and won't be when they find out that Vanguard is different than EQ 1 in the ways that are no longer compatible with their lifestyle. I also think the more UO-esque elements of Vanguard that were not present in EQ 1 will help make the game more appealing to old school MMOG players who were more interested in a broad rather than deep game. There is a lot more to do in Vanguard than there ever was to do in EQ 1 -- a lot more sandbox, broad, etc. activities like building houses, sailing ships, etc. And when we get full city building in, players will be able to run vendors, enjoy an RTS element, and much more. Lastly in this group are the PvPers and I think as we continue to make our PvP servers better and more varied that more PvP players will be attracted to the game.
3. New gamers or gamers for whom WoW was their first MMOG. Reaching out to them is also a challenge. Many still enjoy WoW, which is fine, and especially are enjoying it now that Burning Crusade is out. As I've posted for months, perhaps years, I am confident that some percentage of WoW players will end up looking for a deeper game like Vanguard, where there is a lot more to do and experience. And as I've posted in the past, it doesn't have to be a huge percentage of WoW players for us to reach 500,000+ subscribers in the first year or so. But, of course, launching so close to the WoW expansion hurt us in this area short term. But they will come
Lastly, there's the art style, being more like EQ 2, using more modern technology -- shaders, bump mapping, specularity, etc. Some people when they look at screenshots of Vanguard assume it is a game much more like EQ 2 than WoW. Here again I am confident that our decision to use newer technology will allow us to keep the game current for years to come. But in the short term, people who stayed with EQ 1 or moved to WoW because they didn't like the looks of EQ 2, or are having performance issues, or who assume Vanguard plays just like EQ 2 -- these people need to be reached as well, because Vanguard is its own game and plays differently and is not an EQ 2 clone any more than it is a WoW clone -- it's a different experience and will become even more so as the game continues to evolve. People will be buying better machines, and we will continue to optimize, and as other games (not just MMOGs) come out that use newer technology (FPS games, etc.), people won't assume as much that Vanguard = EQ 2 just because they use similar tech; rather they'll simply see a modern game with an incredibly immersive world and setting.
So, anyway, that's what I think. We have some hurdles to over come, but I'm confident we can and are overcoming them. The word is getting out. The game is controversial. Our heritage in being involved with EQ 1 is controversial -- a blessing and a curse. But as more and more positive reviews of the game come out, as we continue to optimize and fix bugs, as we continue to add polish, and as people who are playing and enjoying the game tell their friends about it, the game will grow and become that much more popular. It's hard to compete in the gamespace now with WoW being such a giant. But then it can also be very advantageous to offer an alternative to the 'mainstream'. Look at DAoC back in the EQ days -- that game was never as popular as EQ, but was still a great game and found a solid niche and did very well. And now they've been bought by EA and have some tremendous opportunities ahead of them. I think the same is true for Vanguard -- the Vanguard lovers will mellow and enjoy the game and spread the word, and the Vanguard haters will relax and the more they hear about the game and that it's not more of the same, or too retro, or too hard core, they'll give the game a chance too.
In the meantime we'll continue to make the game better, fix bugs, make tweaks, add some very cool features. And we'll make sure people know that you don't have to grind unless you want to, that you can play casually, that you have multiple advancement paths and don't have to fight all of the time. We'll make sure people know that you don't have to CR -- that you can summon your corpse at the altar. We'll make sure that skipping CRs isn't as painful as it is. We'll add some teleporters. We'll make sure that while grouping remains the focus, that we make better LFG and even matchmaking functionality. The word about how fun harvesting and crafting is will spread. The newness of diplomacy where you don't have to fight to advance, where you can find out the lore and storyline without having to hack and slash all of the time will get out there -- there's already been some very positive reviews where people are very excited about this third sphere of gameplay. The community will grow. The controversy and love-hate feelings will subside and having more options when it comes to MMOGs will appeal to more and more people. After all, people like choices.
Anyway, those are my thoughts as to 'why they rage', the controversy, and all the emotions surrounding this game. Thanks for listening
*bow*
Ah! Thanks Tnice.
Coulda saved yourself some trouble and just said the Viral marketing post though.
I think there's enough content in that one post to make a feature length film.
3 things to do ASAP Brad/Sigil...
1) Official forums. Active developer involvement on these forums. No censoring. SOE forums are notorious for deleting ANY negativity threads. Stop expecting fan-sites to work as CSR for you without giving them a salary. It's already caused a few sites to leave the affiliate program, and I have no doubts more will follow suit if they don't get their act together.
2) Free trials. People don't wanna hear how much the game has improved from you, me, or anyone else. Practice what you preach. Nearly all of the fans of Vanguard on this website talk about "Try it for yourself", and even Brad constantly says "Give it a chance". Fine. Give people a 10 chance. If the game has truly improved that much, you'll attract customers from the trial.
3) End viral marketing. People have heard of Vanguard, they know it. Unfortunately for Sigil/Brad, it's counter-productive. People have heard about Vanguard, anyone who's had even the slightest interest in it has heard something about it. More often than not, it isn't pretty. Please, for the sake of your game, stop harping about the damn advertising/marketing campaigns.
Follow these 3 steps, you have a shot at making Vanguard a good game over the course of a year. Ignore them, and fail.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
I have to agree with Reklaw, cause I feel dirty when I agree with Cym.
Joking aside.
Free trial
OFFICIAL FORUMS!!!!!!
Personally, viral marketing is annoying when I'm able to look at the source of the enthusiasm (Brad's posts again) and see that a person here is actually pitching the game in a way that's a detriment to Vanguard; mistakenly believing they're doing something positive. It's simply deceptive and not helpful towards Vanguard, whether it's calling for re-subscribers and wasting second chances prior to the re-launch, speaking inconsequentially of performance issues when Brad has stated the average player will need a new PC, saying the population levels are just fine when lower than expected subscriptions have been acknowledged, or a number of other "positive" posting trends that directly contradict the source of viral marketing schematics.
Even if viral marketers, or otherwise "positive" posters hadn't decided to pitch any of Brad's messages, I still believe any "positivity" or enthusiasm should be limited by the overarching messages that Brad himself sends out. For example, I'm always going to publicly disagree with anyone claiming the game can run on 6 series GeForces with 1 gig of RAM, so long as Brad is suggesting new systems.
The sooner potential buyers get it in their heads they're going to need a new system for this game, the better; mixed messages don't help. It took me a day to figure out I wouldn't be able to run Supreme Commander at full settings until the future when hardware actually exists for it; it didn't take a year of reading back and forth messages on a fansite; because the message was concise and clear by fans and developers alike.
I'm certain some people are playing on 6 series GeForces or equivalents, and even 1 gig of RAM, but as aforementioned, there's already an overarching stance on how and when Vanguard will perform at the level Sigil wants. Performance is just one example; there's also conflicting messages between "positive" fans and developers about things like bugs, ease or lackthereof of finding groups, availability of content, and so on.
In short, a lot of posts deserve to go up in flames in my opinion. Being "positive" doesn't equate to being constructive or otherwise beneficial towards Vanguard. It's perfectly reasonable for a "hater" to be as grim as Sigil is about their own game, and squat down any insinuations (growing population, worth of re-subscribing now for a second impression, absence of bugs, vast performance issues, etc.) that are only going to lead to disappointment and wasted first impressions for Vanguard. If all "info" was normalized to the exact level Sigil themselves put out, then "grim" could become simply "realistic" finally, but for now, of course some folks are going to seem negative if Vanguard is poised in such a way that even Sigil is coming off as "haters". Exactly what's the difference between a person telling a prospective player here that they need a new PC, that there are LFG problems, and so on when Brad says it all the time in his bi-weekly State of the Union addresses?
All and all, I think the terms "vanbois" and "haters" are mis-used; along with what's "positive" and what's "negative". Especially as of late when folks like Father healz4u injects calls for perfect complacency towards Vanguard in every thread. It's gotten to the point where on these forums, you can be more positive about the game than Sigil, but less positive than some of its accused viral marketers, and be considered a "hater", "troll" or "flamer".
Anyway, as already been mentioned, ultimately the availability of free trial keys is going to solve a lot of problems. These 15 page threads simply ended by a "here, try it yourself." Ultimately, as Cymdai pointed out, that's really what's missing from Sigil's tactic of viral marketing right now; there's a 40 dollar barrier between a prospective player and a Vanguard subscription.
I canceled my VSoH sub recently but for some reason it just doesnt bother me that anyone else still plays or likes the game.
Second, Trey, you make one of the most well reasoned and clearly articulated posts I have read since joining here. I completely agree with you that people that currently play this game "will not bother" to post here. Reasonable people will not subject themselves to personal attacks, flaming, and trolling simply because they play (and might enjoy) the game.
Third, I consider it being "Sane in an Insane Place" when you are trying to discuss the progress the game has made but you are deliberately attacked by willful and wanton trollers/flamers. I am so accustomed to it, and I have so many blocked, that is does not even really impact me anymore. I have started to use other forums and maybe visit here once or twice a day as opposed to multiple times each day.
Last, my theory is that the flaming and trolling has a lot less to do with the game (Vanguard, SWG, et al.) than it does with people's very real complex personal issues. The anger is obviously misdirected, and sometimes the target of their anger are people that currently play the game and try to talk about improvements and enhancements.
In conclusion, to sound like "them," I PREDICTED THIS (rofl). I predicted that people that currently play the game will gradually not bother to use MMORPG and we are witnessing that. The incredible value of MMORPG as a resource for "information" has become a sewer of flaming and trolling that is simply abnormal. In fact, I was not even going to bother visiting MMORPG today, and I am gradually getting out of the habit of doing it. I wish that were not necessary.
Lol, you are the biggest hyprocrite I've read on these forums. You attack me in my thread for not showing diehard statistical proof, yet you "claim" that many players don't visit mmorpg.com to garner information. Pot, meet kettle, and call him black. You don't even play this game yet you continue to post your "opinion" on what others write. And here's the kicker. I bet most of the "anger" isn't directed at curernt players; it's directed at the devs for what was supposed to be a great game, but wiht sriously scaled down features, and IT IS a pay to play beta. Period. None of us that dislike the game give a rat's ass whether the players read the forums or not. It's not their minds we are about. IT'S THE NEW PEOPLE THAT SHOULDN'T HAVE TO BE DUPED INTO THINKING THIS IS THE BEST GAME EVER RELEASED AND HAVE TO GO WASTE $50 + SUB MONEY TO LEARN THE HARD WAY THEIR SYSTEM WON'T RUN IT GREAT ETC. It's ok, you keep living in your dream world, and keep blocking people too. You were the kid who stood in th corner in school and covered your ears and said "NAH NAHNAHNANHAHN I CAN'T HEAR YOUUUU"... Good luck with that. And take your own advice and stay out of the forums!! You look like a bigger fool for saying you'll stay away, then having to come back in to insert your .01 cents (not .02, because that's too genrous) in a thread.
Excuse me a moment...Who exactly are you again?I canceled my VSoH sub recently but for some reason it just doesnt bother me that anyone else still plays or likes the game.Lol, you think that I think the beligerantly blind fanboi is paid by Sigil?
Sadly, I know they do it for free. Deception is deception though, whether you are paid or not. The game ain't getting sold to Sony because it is excellent, put it that way.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
I canceled my VSoH sub recently but for some reason it just doesnt bother me that anyone else still plays or likes the game.
Lol, you think that I think the beligerantly blind fanboi is paid by Sigil?
Sadly, I know they do it for free. Deception is deception though, whether you are paid or not. The game ain't getting sold to Sony because it is excellent, put it that way.
Blind? Guys said he doesn't play and doesn't care anyone else does. i.e. He isnt a moron.
Now playing: VG (after a long break from MMORPGS)
Played for more than a month: Darkfall online, Vanguard SOH, Everquest, Horizons, WoW, SWG, Everquest II, Eve
I think Sigil should have a close look at these forums. Let them see what they're up against, know why people are as mad as they are, and what can be done to correct/remedy the hatred.
Here is one of the issues with MMORPG.com at the current point in time, you as a staff writer are of course going to be swayed by your own personal opinions as everyone is, but.... instead of trying to moderate discussions and keep people on topic you seem to fan the flames and through your post add fuel to the fire of those that are the problem with this site currently.
I find a huge difference between a discussion with opposing views and what generally goes on in these forums. People routinely attack other people and accuse them of being a paid shill or part of the game staff. As silly as these remarks are they add nothing to the discussion and usually send the thread further into the muck, where the childish name-calling and flaming intensifies. YOU as a staff writer should be there to A. get people back on topic and B. Moderate those that decide that a civilized conversation is beyond their capabilities. Instead of helping the situation you often make post that read more like a player scorned than a staff writer for a very popular mmo forum.
I'll address your view that they should take a different view of the hostile environment on mmorpg.com and why I believe they won't use your line of thinking.
Point 1 This isn't simply a issue that exist in the Vanguard forums, this is a site wide pattern of behavior that basically runs rampant through all threads involving all games and all areas of discussion.
Point 2 If you truly wade through what amounts to threads that often go double digit page wise deep and are often repeated, there is very little viable information to be gained on REAL complaints or reasons for the hate. No I don't count it was released to early or it ran poorly at launch as viable complaints, why? because they are no longer legit concerns for the CURRENT state of the game. Yes the game was released to early, Yes it ran poorly at launch but unless Sigil plans on bending the rules of time and space this may be a tough one to magically fix.
Point 3 Those that make the most noise often hate for no other reason but to hate, sort of related to point 2 but hear me out. I know of multiple people that come into the threads simply to bash the game, not because they played it and disliked it, not because it ran poorly on their system, but because they hate SOE and anything that has to do with the company.
Guess what I loathe SOE as a company but when I look at the mmo's currently available I had to look at what was out there and decide if I would let the game I enjoy pass me by or would I simply tolerate the company to enjoy the product that they are apart of, I chose the later.
Here again Sigil can't really gather much wisdom from a certain poster who makes one line post and might just have a female jedi image in there signature when their post amount to I hope the game dies because SOE once screwed me over. I use that particular person as an example as they are very combative, never try to make any sort of point and are simply posting to piss others off and continue their unhealthy obsession with what SOE did to them at one time, long long ago... in a galaxy far away. Honestly what do you expect them to take away from spending hours thumbing through sophomoric flames between disgruntled people. Well I guess we chose the wrong publisher, again can't be changed and pointless to harp on it.
Point 4 If I remember correctly the people at Sigil tried to post and have open feedback with the people that frequent these forums but the usual people come out of the woodwork and flooded the threads to the point that they probably had to step back and say am I gaining anything from this or am I simply wasting time, well they made their choice.
Before you start proclaiming "all the answers" you might wanna consider what already has taken place and what has led to the current state of MMORPG.com in the eyes of some of your fans as well as developers. To me a little professionalism goes a long way, in this thread you are hearing from not just people with a few post but people such as myself and those like me that have made many post over a significant amount of time, something to consider before you starting profiling all of us as those pesky viral marketers that you seem so sure we must be.
Regards
Trey
Anyway, you missed the point about the value of Sigil lookin' at these forums. The negativity here isn't anything new, its the same thing going on at SilkyVenom and every other affiliate site. So if MMORPG.com isn't enough to convince you that a systemic, negative consensus exists for this game throughout the MMO community at large, then please do go to those other forums after selecting the most hate-filled useless post you've found here, and try to not find the exact same thing if not worse over at SilkyVenom.
Even if Cymdal were a moderator and it was his job to take upon a staff persona here, it's only MMORPG.com's job to provide an ethical framework for people's posting. The closest thing the "haters" are in violation of on a daily basis is "trolling", but you know what? It's usually due to responding to "trolling" from others who invade threads with the same ol' "Vanguard is a thousand times better than launch. It has potential. It's only going to get better and better." At least the "haters" usually have a laundry list of reasons why they make their claims, while some others seem to hinge their trolling on nothing more than hopes and dreams.
The point is, MMORPG.com's policies are constructed in such a way that justly, one's attitude towards a game, be it favorable or unfavorable, has jack to do with a poster's standing when it comes to the rules. It isn't MMORPG.com's job to quell the "hate" Vanguard receives, nor any other board, it's up to Sigil to quell it. Conveniently, there's only one way to do that...fix everything that the "haters" complain about in Vanguard.
The other issue is more opinion does enjoying Vanguard make me a viral marketer for the game, hardly its simply the game I enjoy atm, but many take cheap shots at anyone that say anything positive about the game. My comment toward the Staff writer was to more point out that he fuels the fire when it comes to post such as those. The way he words it is as if anyone that might say something positive has an agenda, and this is hardly true.
Honestly I'm not here to convince anyone to play the game, thats not my job, I'm simply here to post my opinion like anyone else. I do it in a civil manner and expect others to try to do the same, if thats asking to much I guess maybe I hold people to a higher standard than I should. In that way I won't change and I don't feel I should have to. There are many games I don't really care for that I've played in the past but I don't make it my cause to bring them down through any means necessary. Many times I post my thoughts of the game and move on, not that I expect everyone to do it that way but if you want to bring something to the discussion, do so, and try to do it with some tact.
Take my post with a grain of salt but over the last year I've seen a change in the way threads develop here, maybe its the fact MMO's have become more mainstream and draw a much larger crowd, I don't know, I do know that flame wars and childish cheap-shots are not what brought me to mmorpg.com to begin with.
Regards,
Trey