I find it truly sad that the one guy that should of got the bullet gets retained as a consultant. I hope the jolly green ranger finally reconciles how to make a hardcore game that is fun but sadly I think he is so wrapped up in hardcore he wouldn't know fun if it bit him in the backpack. I guess one good thing is that he will not be taken quite so seriously in the industry in the future so 'assets' will be used for more interesting projects.
Interesting comparisons for NGE.. techincally make no sense as with MMO's it is the producers discresion to change the game and well if someone stole your hummer and gave you a hyundia you could probably sue or something .. but in all seriousness your post certainly has some valid points. But you said multiple games and out of curiosity what other games do you feel they have completely ruined? Because while the NGE on SWG seems like it is generaly agreed upon (although not always) that it ruined the game, but in games like EQ1 there wer changes, but nothing so drastic and changes that alot of people generally enjoyed. And EQII I feel is an example of them actualy taking something flawed (released by them but still..) and fixing it. Now maybe there are other games they have messed up that I havent played, but I was just wondering if there was in your experience or if you were just stating they had done it multiple times because it sounded better.
*blink blink* Your kidding me? Wow and to think all the fanbois and disillusioned players we warned said it would never happen, as I said before though, deepest condolences go to the sigil employees I hope they learn from this as a bunch of other players will.
Quoting people doesn't make you clever, in fact, it makes you all the more stupid for not bothering to read the quotes you post in the first place.
SOE JUST DOES NOT GET IT AND APPARENTLY NEITHER DO YOU someforumguy!!!!
Get over it already !!
Holy crap, this is now 2 years at least. I do understand your frustration about loosing 400 bucks subscription and a lot of time. I gave up on another game after 16 month of hard work and fun until they turned it into a gankfest for no reasons. However. Everyone is making mistakes, is changing, growing, learning. Even SoE does. But not you obviously. EQ2 turned into a real good game. The support and billing works flawless and is not that bad as some say.
Other then that Vangaurd needs some changes. Not only technical improvement, bugfixes and content updates. I dont call for V:SoH:NGE, but i think the game needs some serious balancing towards sanity. Hard a demanding is not equal to braindead mechanics.
wow... after reading how crap Vanguard is this is quite the interesting! maybe i will try this game out in the near future, sadly if SOE change the game its going to be the worst time ever, with WAR, fallen earth, POTBS, Tabula Rasa, AOC and many more games coming out in the near future, i cant see the population going up alot no matter what they do.... its a shame because they might do something great with it..
with all the other mmo's on the horizon which are so far promising to be something different, and vastly more indepth to Vanguard (Tabula, Conan, Warhammer etc etc) - Vanguard has too big of a mountain to climb to succeed. If anything it should be canned until its developed into a polished game and relaunched as Vanguard 2 or something
Picking and changing the game while the game is still live will be pointless and they've already been down that road before with no success
Good part: SOE has the $$ to make Vanguard what it should be.
Bad part: In 'saving' EQ2 SOE as slowly turned it into EQ1. EoF sure feels like at lot like EQ. You even zone by crossing an invisible again. (which I admit I do like. Hate clicking on doors, rocks or bells just to zone) Are they going to 'save' Vanguard in the same way?
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." -Confucius
Now that is a good one, Smedley actually admitting NGE was a mistake.
For you Vanguard fanboys, one thing I can guarentee, the game will be dumbed down significantly. Hardcore games and large suscriber bases do not mix and SOE knows that. Death penalty will be changed and heavy grinding in the trades will be lessened among other things.
You know I feel shat on! I have been following this game for years and was in beta forever and then they release a stinking pile of poo on purpose! Damnit, I wanted this game to be the best ever, I am so pissed right now
Interesting comparisons for NGE.. techincally make no sense as with MMO's it is the producers discresion to change the game and well if someone stole your hummer and gave you a hyundia you could probably sue or something .. but in all seriousness your post certainly has some valid points. But you said multiple games and out of curiosity what other games do you feel they have completely ruined? Because while the NGE on SWG seems like it is generaly agreed upon (although not always) that it ruined the game, but in games like EQ1 there wer changes, but nothing so drastic and changes that alot of people generally enjoyed. And EQII I feel is an example of them actualy taking something flawed (released by them but still..) and fixing it. Now maybe there are other games they have messed up that I havent played, but I was just wondering if there was in your experience or if you were just stating they had done it multiple times because it sounded better.
Kalade
Technically it is the producers discresion to change the game, but how many producers, other than SoE producers do you know that would change a game so drastically that it doesn't even look like the same game you originally bought and as far as people sueing, a lot of people wanted to do that when they came out with the NGE and announced it two weeks after the launch for Trials of Obi Wan, thats why they decided to refund peoples money, but they didn't do it with other drastic changes in other games they screwed up, in the name of "their new vision" of those games. As far as what they screwed up, SWG, you know about, Planetside, and MXO, they opted to completely make them into different games from the games they originally sold, which were pretty decent games, but instead of fixing the issues with the games again, they completey changed the games core systems. Yes, in my opinion, the original EQ II was much better than what the two combat revamps, class choice system, several guild system revamps and a lot of other changes that weren't wanted or needed in the players eyes. Its a shame they took out all the "Official Archived Forum Posts" where people complained and protested what they did to the games, including EQ II. Though, I do have to say, the last expansion was a change for the better, but it doesn't make up for the changes they made during DoF and KoS. On top of it, SoE has a history of lying to their player base and I don't feel that should be so easily dismissed by people, because if you don't hold them to a "higher standard", they won't learn in the future, and as you can planly see, their business practices have continued with the buyout of Vanguard after Microsoft called off the deal with Sigil. Seriously, the only thing they care about is really the dollars and cents, they don't really care about the games or the players, its all about the dollars for them. I'm not saying they shouldn't make a profit, but in the name of profit they have really botched things up in the past. I hope this helps clear things up a bit
SOE JUST DOES NOT GET IT AND APPARENTLY NEITHER DO YOU someforumguy!!!!
Get over it already !!
Holy crap, this is now 2 years at least. I do understand your frustration about loosing 400 bucks subscription and a lot of time. I gave up on another game after 16 month of hard work and fun until they turned it into a gankfest for no reasons. However. Everyone is making mistakes, is changing, growing, learning. Even SoE does. But not you obviously. EQ2 turned into a real good game. The support and billing works flawless and is not that bad as some say.
Other then that Vangaurd needs some changes. Not only technical improvement, bugfixes and content updates. I dont call for V:SoH:NGE, but i think the game needs some serious balancing towards sanity. Hard a demanding is not equal to braindead mechanics.Again, i'll post this just for you, "IF YOU DON'T HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE, THEY WILL KEEP DOING IT". You are too ready to just dismiss what they do and no, it hasn't been like 2 years, but thats beside the point. I mean its like that news clip where that poor old man got beat down by some thug while bystanders just stand there and watch, I would be the guy to jump in and get the guy to stop, while you stand there and just watch the poor old mean get beat down. So, you are entitled to your "opinion" just as I am, so get over "MY OPINION" if it bothers you that much. I apparently have a higher standard of ethics and conduct, and expect others to have the same, at least, people and business' that I have dealings with (and yes paying them for the game constitues business dealings), including SoE....though to be honest, I don't think it will ever happen.
Classic corporate takeover.................offer to "rescue" a company in trouble (Sigil), but fill the contract with obligations that the struggling company will NEVER be able to live up to. These are the day-to-day tactics of SOE, and anyone who supports them is a corporate shill.
And to that jackass _kyle_ or whatever your name is. Brad started the whole mmorpg revolution with EQ1, and all that hath grown out of the industry, including this website here, is fruit of HIS tree.
But hey.....you make a deal with the devil......be prepared to get burnt.
RIP Brad.....your career in this industry is OVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Verant was started by Smedely so EQ1 is his game, Brad was Smedely's sidekick so this revolution you speak of was started by the Smed himself.
McQuaid started as the project's lead programmer but was made the producer and one of the lead designers. While EQ was being developed, Origin Systems launched Ultima Online (UO) in 1997 which became the top MMORPG. EverQuest became a huge hit and within months of its March 1999 launch it topped the subscription numbers held by UO. PC Gamer called McQuaid one of the "Next Game Gods" in October 2000, believing that he would eventually become one of the industry's most influential game developers.
Originally posted by Ironman2000 Seriously, yes it is normal for people to hold a grudge against a company that offered a product (in this case products) and completely changed the item to something no one wanted or payed for. Its like if someone came to your house in the middle of the night and changed your 2007 Hummer H2 into a 1998 Hundai and said to you, its ok we just helped you out with your gas problem. You would be pretty ticked off and thats why people are still mad about the NGE and similar patterns in other SoE games. The NGE litterally RIPPED apart communities of players that had played together since the game started, and not slowly, they did it OVERNIGHT. So don't go telling people not to HATE on SoE. They have good reason to hate on SoE and now Brad. Considering for 2 years of subscription fees on SWG amounted to about 400 dollars invested in a game that they enjoyed and not to mention the time invested in creating and leveling a character that were completely wiped out by one stupid idea that everyone at SoE apparently thought was a winner. SO DON'T YOU GO TELLING THE REST OF US, TO LIGHTEN UP ON SoE, I REALLY HATE IT WHEN PEOPLE TRY TO MINIMALIZE OTHER PEOPLES FEELINGS AND VIEWS, WHEN THEY DON'T HAVE ANY CLUE WHAT WAS INVOLVED AND WHAT WAS DONE. SO BEFORE YOU GO SPOUTING OFF, REMEMBER, I CAN COME OVER TO YOUR HOUSE AND EASILY SWAP A 10 SPEED BIKE FOR YOUR CAR AND SEE HOW YOU LIKE IT. Yes, its that big a deal, when people try to tell other people that SoE isn't that bad, they now and always will screw people over. Things might seem to get better, but as soon as numbers start to slip a little, they'll jump in and screw you all over again, with no consideration for the time or cash invested in what ever SoE game you play.
Thank You. Even though this post was aimed at an individual, it is still one of the truest statements I've ever seen dealing with the SOE issue. I have been trying to figure out a way to put into words how I felt about SOE for the longest time without sounding like a whining little schoolgirl, and when I saw this post, I had to re-read it twice. IMHO this sums it all up perfectly. Thanks for putting my thoughts into such a well written post.
As far as Vanguard goes, I played the open beta, and didn't play after that. I found it lacking in so many ways, it was ridiculous to think they believed it was almost ready at that point. Now I truly feel sorry for those that actually purchased the game, and actually like it enough to stay.
For those of you that continue to support Vanguard, I hope you take the post quoted above to heart. It has happened before, it may very well happen again.
This is a great interview, it really should be read by EVERYONE and posted on the Vanguard forums if anyone has an account there still. Here is just a small snipet of the interview:
f13.net: Who set the release date?
Ex-Sigil: The release date was set as a result of SOE not wanting to fund the project any deeper without SOME revenue coming in...
f13.net: Surely no one thought this was ready for primetime. And what about the giant patches that appeared nearly daily?
Ex-Sigil: We couldn't control that. From what I was told by some on the design team, the sweeping changes were par for the course.
f13.net: At this point, why were you all getting decent press? Did Brad do most of the marketing for that (even though he wasn't in the office)?
Ex-Sigil: Yes. We got press because I think people wanted to believe Brad. They wanted it to be great and they got caught up in his passion.
f13.net: How many copies of Vanguard sell between say, release and today?
Ex-Sigil: Around 200k, I think.
f13.net: How many people stayed after the "free" month?
Ex-Sigil: Numbers I heard yesterday were 90k. But I can't be sure. Actual subscription numbers were something management was very reluctant to tell us.
Sorry, I just re-read the interview with the fired sigil employee and f13.net. I keep finding little gems in the text, stuff like this that everyone should see:
f13.net: Did they set the milestones?
Ex-Sigil: They set monthly milestones. They wanted a succesful MMOG. They had so many false starts with other things that they just wanted a profitable game.
f13.net: They weren't trying to be the next WoW?
Ex-Sigil: Anyone who thinks you can make a WoW killer these days is foolish to try. You need to be your own game. WoW is a juggernaut and really needs to not be the watermark for success. WoW is a tough subject around Sigil too...
f13.net: Why?
Ex-Sigil: There are a lot of people, Brad included who were certain it would be a short-lived game. Some, in fact, including Brad, never played it. WoW should have been the example of 'look at what a good game can do!' when instead it was often spoken of like a bad thing.
On Brad's history you left out one significant point. Sigil was initially funded by Microsoft and was eventually dropped like a hot potato when even Microsoft knew it was a disaster waiting to happen only then did Sony pick them up, Brad probably called Smedley and begged him to take it.
If you can remember back when Verant had EQ, Verant was well noted for completely ignoring the playerbase and doing what they felt was right. That is why the name Verant still connotates negativity at it's meer mention.
Brad, if he ever had any vision, has certainly lost it. I don't think he will be doing much in this industry unless someone like Smedley is fool enough to give him another chance.
On Brad's history you left out one significant point. Sigil was initially funded by Microsoft and was eventually dropped like a hot potato when even Microsoft knew it was a disaster waiting to happen only then did Sony pick them up, Brad probably called Smedley and begged him to take it. If you can remember back when Verant had EQ, Verant was well noted for completely ignoring the playerbase and doing what they felt was right. That is why the name Verant still connotates negativity at it's meer mention. Brad, if he ever had any vision, has certainly lost it. I don't think he will be doing much in this industry unless someone like Smedley is fool enough to give him another chance.
LOL well you'll have to take that one up with Wikipedia, thats where I got the info that I posted.
Comments
yeah what he said...seriously this time...i totally agree with ironman
Cheers.
Interesting comparisons for NGE.. techincally make no sense as with MMO's it is the producers discresion to change the game and well if someone stole your hummer and gave you a hyundia you could probably sue or something
.. but in all seriousness your post certainly has some valid points. But you said multiple games and out of curiosity what other games do you feel they have completely ruined? Because while the NGE on SWG seems like it is generaly agreed upon (although not always) that it ruined the game, but in games like EQ1 there wer changes, but nothing so drastic and changes that alot of people generally enjoyed. And EQII I feel is an example of them actualy taking something flawed (released by them but still..) and fixing it. Now maybe there are other games they have messed up that I havent played, but I was just wondering if there was in your experience or if you were just stating they had done it multiple times because it sounded better.
Kalade
Quoting people doesn't make you clever, in fact, it makes you all the more stupid for not bothering to read the quotes you post in the first place.
Holy crap, this is now 2 years at least. I do understand your frustration about loosing 400 bucks subscription and a lot of time. I gave up on another game after 16 month of hard work and fun until they turned it into a gankfest for no reasons. However. Everyone is making mistakes, is changing, growing, learning. Even SoE does. But not you obviously. EQ2 turned into a real good game. The support and billing works flawless and is not that bad as some say.
Other then that Vangaurd needs some changes. Not only technical improvement, bugfixes and content updates. I dont call for V:SoH:NGE, but i think the game needs some serious balancing towards sanity. Hard a demanding is not equal to braindead mechanics.
www.f13.net/index.php
Gives pretty clear picture of the situation.
That scares me more then anything...
Ouch! That interview read like the information on Horizons (that is on this site). The similarities were disturbing to say the least.
* Sigh * I hope now that my VG box will be a collector's item if SOE can pull them from the pit. =P
Picking and changing the game while the game is still live will be pointless and they've already been down that road before with no success
Now that was awesome!
I Reject your Reality and Substitute it with My Own!
Good part: SOE has the $$ to make Vanguard what it should be.
Bad part: In 'saving' EQ2 SOE as slowly turned it into EQ1. EoF sure feels like at lot like EQ. You even zone by crossing an invisible again. (which I admit I do like. Hate clicking on doors, rocks or bells just to zone) Are they going to 'save' Vanguard in the same way?
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." -Confucius
My new store for all your computer needs: Tech Chest,LLC at http://www.tech-chest.com
Now that is a good one, Smedley actually admitting NGE was a mistake.
For you Vanguard fanboys, one thing I can guarentee, the game will be dumbed down significantly. Hardcore games and large suscriber bases do not mix and SOE knows that. Death penalty will be changed and heavy grinding in the trades will be lessened among other things.
I am so good, I backstabbed your face!
Technically it is the producers discresion to change the game, but how many producers, other than SoE producers do you know that would change a game so drastically that it doesn't even look like the same game you originally bought and as far as people sueing, a lot of people wanted to do that when they came out with the NGE and announced it two weeks after the launch for Trials of Obi Wan, thats why they decided to refund peoples money, but they didn't do it with other drastic changes in other games they screwed up, in the name of "their new vision" of those games. As far as what they screwed up, SWG, you know about, Planetside, and MXO, they opted to completely make them into different games from the games they originally sold, which were pretty decent games, but instead of fixing the issues with the games again, they completey changed the games core systems. Yes, in my opinion, the original EQ II was much better than what the two combat revamps, class choice system, several guild system revamps and a lot of other changes that weren't wanted or needed in the players eyes. Its a shame they took out all the "Official Archived Forum Posts" where people complained and protested what they did to the games, including EQ II. Though, I do have to say, the last expansion was a change for the better, but it doesn't make up for the changes they made during DoF and KoS. On top of it, SoE has a history of lying to their player base and I don't feel that should be so easily dismissed by people, because if you don't hold them to a "higher standard", they won't learn in the future, and as you can planly see, their business practices have continued with the buyout of Vanguard after Microsoft called off the deal with Sigil. Seriously, the only thing they care about is really the dollars and cents, they don't really care about the games or the players, its all about the dollars for them. I'm not saying they shouldn't make a profit, but in the name of profit they have really botched things up in the past. I hope this helps clear things up a bit
Holy crap, this is now 2 years at least. I do understand your frustration about loosing 400 bucks subscription and a lot of time. I gave up on another game after 16 month of hard work and fun until they turned it into a gankfest for no reasons. However. Everyone is making mistakes, is changing, growing, learning. Even SoE does. But not you obviously. EQ2 turned into a real good game. The support and billing works flawless and is not that bad as some say.
Other then that Vangaurd needs some changes. Not only technical improvement, bugfixes and content updates. I dont call for V:SoH:NGE, but i think the game needs some serious balancing towards sanity. Hard a demanding is not equal to braindead mechanics.Again, i'll post this just for you, "IF YOU DON'T HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE, THEY WILL KEEP DOING IT". You are too ready to just dismiss what they do and no, it hasn't been like 2 years, but thats beside the point. I mean its like that news clip where that poor old man got beat down by some thug while bystanders just stand there and watch, I would be the guy to jump in and get the guy to stop, while you stand there and just watch the poor old mean get beat down. So, you are entitled to your "opinion" just as I am, so get over "MY OPINION" if it bothers you that much. I apparently have a higher standard of ethics and conduct, and expect others to have the same, at least, people and business' that I have dealings with (and yes paying them for the game constitues business dealings), including SoE....though to be honest, I don't think it will ever happen.
Just FYI from Wikipeadia:
Brad McQuaid's start in the video game industry came in 1989 when he co-founded MicroGenesis with Steve Clover. In their free time they created WarWizard, a shareware computer role-playing game that they released in 1993. McQuaid and Clover then developed a WarWizard 2 demo in 1995, which caught the attention of John Smedley of Sony Interactive Studios America. Smedley hired McQuaid and Clover in 1996 to work on an online role-playing game, later named EverQuest (or EQ for short).
McQuaid started as the project's lead programmer but was made the producer and one of the lead designers. While EQ was being developed, Origin Systems launched Ultima Online (UO) in 1997 which became the top MMORPG. EverQuest became a huge hit and within months of its March 1999 launch it topped the subscription numbers held by UO. PC Gamer called McQuaid one of the "Next Game Gods" in October 2000, believing that he would eventually become one of the industry's most influential game developers.
After Sony Online Entertainment acquired Verant Interactive, Brad McQuaid was promoted to Vice President of Premium Games and Chief Creative Officer. He found the lack of hands-on influence over the game upsetting. He set aside his place upon Norrath, and created Sigil Games with Jeff Butler in January 2002. McQuaid and Sigil later announced development on Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, an MMORPG to be co-published by Sony Online Entertainment. On May15 2007 Sony Online Entertainment offialy announced that it has completed a transaction to purchase key assets of Sigil Games Online, Inc.
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Working as Intended.
Thank You. Even though this post was aimed at an individual, it is still one of the truest statements I've ever seen dealing with the SOE issue. I have been trying to figure out a way to put into words how I felt about SOE for the longest time without sounding like a whining little schoolgirl, and when I saw this post, I had to re-read it twice. IMHO this sums it all up perfectly. Thanks for putting my thoughts into such a well written post.
As far as Vanguard goes, I played the open beta, and didn't play after that. I found it lacking in so many ways, it was ridiculous to think they believed it was almost ready at that point. Now I truly feel sorry for those that actually purchased the game, and actually like it enough to stay.
For those of you that continue to support Vanguard, I hope you take the post quoted above to heart. It has happened before, it may very well happen again.
This is a great interview, it really should be read by EVERYONE and posted on the Vanguard forums if anyone has an account there still. Here is just a small snipet of the interview:
f13.net: Who set the release date?
Ex-Sigil: The release date was set as a result of SOE not wanting to fund the project any deeper without SOME revenue coming in...
f13.net: Surely no one thought this was ready for primetime. And what about the giant patches that appeared nearly daily?
Ex-Sigil: We couldn't control that. From what I was told by some on the design team, the sweeping changes were par for the course.
f13.net: At this point, why were you all getting decent press? Did Brad do most of the marketing for that (even though he wasn't in the office)?
Ex-Sigil: Yes. We got press because I think people wanted to believe Brad. They wanted it to be great and they got caught up in his passion.
f13.net: How many copies of Vanguard sell between say, release and today?
Ex-Sigil: Around 200k, I think.
f13.net: How many people stayed after the "free" month?
Ex-Sigil: Numbers I heard yesterday were 90k. But I can't be sure. Actual subscription numbers were something management was very reluctant to tell us.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Sorry, I just re-read the interview with the fired sigil employee and f13.net. I keep finding little gems in the text, stuff like this that everyone should see:
f13.net: Did they set the milestones?
Ex-Sigil: They set monthly milestones. They wanted a succesful MMOG. They had so many false starts with other things that they just wanted a profitable game.
f13.net: They weren't trying to be the next WoW?
Ex-Sigil: Anyone who thinks you can make a WoW killer these days is foolish to try. You need to be your own game. WoW is a juggernaut and really needs to not be the watermark for success. WoW is a tough subject around Sigil too...
f13.net: Why?
Ex-Sigil: There are a lot of people, Brad included who were certain it would be a short-lived game. Some, in fact, including Brad, never played it. WoW should have been the example of 'look at what a good game can do!' when instead it was often spoken of like a bad thing.
On Brad's history you left out one significant point. Sigil was initially funded by Microsoft and was eventually dropped like a hot potato when even Microsoft knew it was a disaster waiting to happen only then did Sony pick them up, Brad probably called Smedley and begged him to take it.
If you can remember back when Verant had EQ, Verant was well noted for completely ignoring the playerbase and doing what they felt was right. That is why the name Verant still connotates negativity at it's meer mention.
Brad, if he ever had any vision, has certainly lost it. I don't think he will be doing much in this industry unless someone like Smedley is fool enough to give him another chance.