So you are whining about whining? You talk about all the negativity then use profanity in your post. Me, I guess I'm used to the decline in civility on the internet. Though I do think the majorityo f people who post are articulate enough to avoid using profanity, and they do avoid it.
Are you articulate enough to express yourself with out being condescending?
We should all take a lesson from your (implied) moral fiber.
Self-righteous much?
Funny how you zero in on one of the few posts that calls to criticism the unbridled hate being puked all over this thread.
I miss the good ol' days when nerds were actually intelligent.
How many of us dream to open a gaming studio to create our own dreams and see them come to life? I cannot blame him for his attempt. He can, on the other hand, be blamed for the poor management skills and his innability to seek help when it was needed. Hopefully he will be more open to advise in the future.
The event as a whole was unfortunate. My sympathies go out to all that were affected and wish them all the best of luck getting back on track.
This has got to be a joke, right? Forgot the smileys and /sacasm tags. If it's not a joke, then you are a scary person. A person with balls would have been at the firings, standing up in front of the people who he was supposed to be leading.
I will admit that I was a bit emotional in writing this. It makes me sick how so many people can be so heartless.
So some don't think the game is fun and were disappointed. That gives people the sense that they have a right to say all the extreme and ugly things about a person they don't even know?
Just love how so many people in these forums think they are MMO 'experts' or something.
These forums are like a ghetto full of the most negative assholes ever assembled in one place.
Why is it so hard to believe that a huge corporation like Microsoft screwed him over? And they did! After all they did to him he still has the decency to try and speak well of them. Thats what I call professional.
I know of greed and I know the power money has over people. It's a religion of capital. It's all most people know or even consider.
I have always thought people like Raph Koster and Brad McQuaid are misunderstood and flawed artists. Laugh all you want. You say I'm "scary" because you are so 'shocked' that someone disagrees with something you believe to be a given fact.
Both these visionaries have had major failings. Koster with SWG and McQuaid with VG. Both failing because of huge corporate greed. Neither getting to fully realize their vision. Both projects destroyed due to the pursuit of more money faster.
Whats scary is the level of hate and ignorance in this thread.
Some people lost their jobs and that is terrible - almost as terrible as McQuaid losing his entire company and dream due to corporate greed. I feel sad for all at Sigil.
To McQuaid I would remind him of something Nietzsche wrote - "what can not destroy you can only make you stronger!"
Nikoz78, were you, by any chance, in the Vanguard beta while it was funded by Microsoft? Because I was, and I agree with you, if I understand you correctly.
What I experienced in Beta 1 and Beta 2 was beautiful. The interface was completely different (about a dozen different interchangeable interfaces designed by Tom King!), there were more innovative game mechanics (wounds, spellbooks, a wider range of body customisation, et cetera), the graphics were more to my liking (dark nights, non-overbright days, tastefully magical spell effects, subtler weapon effects, more hair-like and mediaeval hair meshes, et cetera), and the rate of development was blindingly fast and very efficient. Communication with the public community and the beta testers was amazingly frequent, detailed, helpful, even personal and entertaining. Sigil didn't move on to the next milestone until the current target milestone was perfected. Microsoft's money was being put to good use.
Come the regime change at Microsoft, development slowed, the servers suffered, and Sigil generally seemed to lack the support they once had from Microsoft.
Come SOE, the interface became EverQuest II's interface, wounds were scrapped, spellbooks were scrapped, body customisation was limited, nights grew brighter, days grew brighter, cities became more like 'storybook' fantasy, animations became more comical, spell effects became floating icons, weapon effects went Final Fantasy, hair turned to EQ2-wax, and by Beta 4 the implementation of classes was visibly becoming a rushed affair. During Beta 4 and 5, milestones were being either tossed in haphazardly or dropped.
Sigil had planned Vanguard with Microsoft's funding in mind. Microsoft had been funding Sigil with the money they needed to realise their goals, but when Microsoft replaced Sigil's Microsoft associates with folks in charge of the Xbox 360, it inevitably suffered a lack of 'attention' from Microsoft. While Microsoft had initially been a match made in Heaven, Microsoft had changed and now they needed a new partner. When the deal with SOE was made, Sigil was stuck with a half-completed game which had been designed from the ground up with Microsoft's immense financial backing in mind. They now had more time and a more experienced partner, but significantly less funding. More than Microsoft's latter-day funding, but less than Microsoft's initial funding. They were indeed 'screwed' by Microsoft in favour of the console market, and SOE was willing to try catching that fall, which was valiant, but the money still couldn't compare to what Microsoft cut.
This change begot many changes. Some, I mentioned above. Others are only becoming apparent after release as patches layer in. Some elements of the initial vision made it in. Others have yet to come. Some seemed to be overridden by the influence of SOE's backing, despite claims to the contrary, or simply by the loss of a great deal of initially available funding. Others seemed to be overridden by the outcries of the late waves of unfocused beta testers with their heads stuck up their Azeroth.
The comments on Brad McQuaid's 'ego' strike me as absurd, coming as they do from anonymous players who believe they know better than a person who has made this their life -- especially a person such as Brad who spent an unprecedented amount of time on the official forums during development, with many other members of the team, interacting with the community on a very honest and human level like no major developer has ever done before. Some people are balking at how he supposedly blames Vanguard's financial quake on its players, while I must be blind to have seen no such blame being placed -- as justified as I am irritated enough to believe it would partially be. Having met and been in discussions with McQuaid and other members of the team personally, I found him an extremely down-to-earth man with whom it was a pleasure to speak with on any subject. If Sigil seems confident about Vanguard, it is passion, not ego. Ego is the MPOGD.com writer saying that Sigil has 'finally seen the light'. Ego is an MMORPG.com forumite taking pleasure in a dream like that of many would-be designers among us being dragged through a new financial Hell as if to prove that only mediocre toy-like projects 'succeed'.
I feel much worse for the throng of lost employees than I do for Brad McQuaid, of course, which is saying a great deal, because I respect and admire Brad more than any single developer anywhere.
I hope every former member of Sigil, from CEO to iguana, can pull through this without being dragged down to the current regressive shtick of certain other existing and upcoming MMOs: disregard for immersion, disregard for applicability, disregard for fascinating experiences, insultingly farcical art direction, uglily proportioned characters, et cetera. Don't abandon your principles.
Keep up the good work. Fight the good fight. Let the Vision be seen.
Someone has to do this. That classic fantasy quality which Sigil tried to capture is so lacking from this genre.
Both McQuaid and Koster are truly, damnably ahead of this industry's nervous rate of progression and are saddeningly inhibited by corporations and audiences who fail to acknowledge the perspicacity of entertainment, the applicability of fantasy, the power of interactivity therein, or to give a fuck about where we are going.
Favorites: EQ, EVE | Playing: None. Mostly VR and strategy | Anticipating: CU, Pantheon
This has got to be a joke, right? Forgot the smileys and /sacasm tags. If it's not a joke, then you are a scary person. A person with balls would have been at the firings, standing up in front of the people who he was supposed to be leading.
I will admit that I was a bit emotional in writing this. It makes me sick how so many people can be so heartless.
So some don't think the game is fun and were disappointed. That gives people the sense that they have a right to say all the extreme and ugly things about a person they don't even know?
Just love how so many people in these forums think they are MMO 'experts' or something.
These forums are like a ghetto full of the most negative assholes ever assembled in one place.
Why is it so hard to believe that a huge corporation like Microsoft screwed him over? And they did! After all they did to him he still has the decency to try and speak well of them. Thats what I call professional.
I know of greed and I know the power money has over people. It's a religion of capital. It's all most people know or even consider.
I have always thought people like Raph Koster and Brad McQuaid are misunderstood and flawed artists. Laugh all you want. You say I'm "scary" because you are so 'shocked' that someone disagrees with something you believe to be a given fact.
Both these visionaries have had major failings. Koster with SWG and McQuaid with VG. Both failing because of huge corporate greed. Neither getting to fully realize their vision. Both projects destroyed due to the pursuit of more money faster.
Whats scary is the level of hate and ignorance in this thread.
Some people lost their jobs and that is terrible - almost as terrible as McQuaid losing his entire company and dream due to corporate greed. I feel sad for all at Sigil.
To McQuaid I would remind him of something Nietzsche wrote - "what can not destroy you can only make you stronger!"
Nikoz78, were you, by any chance, in the Vanguard beta while it was funded by Microsoft? Because I was, and I agree with you, if I understand you correctly.
What I experienced in Beta 1 and Beta 2 was beautiful. The interface was completely different (about a dozen different interchangeable interfaces designed by Tom King!), there were more innovative game mechanics (wounds, spellbooks, a wider range of body customisation, et cetera), the graphics were more to my liking (dark nights, non-overbright days, tastefully magical spell effects, subtler weapon effects, more hair-like and mediaeval hair meshes, et cetera), and the rate of development was blindingly fast and very efficient. Communication with the public community and the beta testers was amazingly frequent, detailed, helpful, even personal and entertaining. Sigil didn't move on to the next milestone until the current target milestone was perfected. Microsoft's money was being put to good use.
Come SOE, much of the direction seemed to change. The interface became EverQuest II's interface, wounds were scrapped, spellbooks were scrapped, body customisation was limited, nights grew brighter, days grew brighter, cities became more like 'storybook' fantasy, animations became more comical, spell effects became floating icons, weapon effects went Final Fantasy, hair turned to EQ2-wax, the rate of development seemed to slow down, and communication with the beta testers lessened. By Beta 4, the implementation of classes was visibly becoming a rushed affair, and during Beta 5 it was clear how milestones were being either tossed in haphazardly or dropped.
My interpretation of this was that Sigil had planned Vanguard with Microsoft's funding in mind. Microsoft had been funding Sigil with the money they needed to realise their goals, but had wanted to keep them to a shorter deadline for the soonest return for their investment. Sigil desired more time, while Microsoft was overconfident due to their inexperience in the development of MMOs. So, when the deal with Microsoft broke and the deal with SOE was made, Sigil was stuck with a half-completed game which had been designed from the ground up with Microsoft's immense financial backing in mind. They now had more time, but less funding. Their deadline was no longer set by Microsoft's timing expectations, but by SOE's lesser funding.
This change begot many changes. Some, I mentioned above. Others are only becoming apparent after release as patches layer in. Some elements of the initial vision made it in. Others have yet to come. Some seemed to be overridden by the influence of SOE, despite claims to the contrary. Others seemed to be overridden by the outcries of the late waves of unfocused beta testers with their heads stuck up their Azeroth.
The comments on Brad McQuaid's 'ego' strike me as absurd, coming as they do from anonymous players who believe they know better than a person who has made this their life -- especially a person such as Brad who spent an unprecedented amount of time on the official forums during development, with many other members of the team, interacting with the community on a very honest and human level like no major developer has ever done before. Some people are balking at how he supposedly blames Vanguard's financial quake on its players, while I must be blind to have seen no such blame being placed -- as justified as I am irritated enough to believe it would partially be. Having met and been in discussions with McQuaid and other members of the team personally, I found him an extremely down-to-earth man with whom it was a pleasure to speak with on any subject. If Sigil seems confident about Vanguard, it is passion, not ego. Ego is the MPOGD.com writer saying that Sigil has 'finally seen the light'. Ego is an MMORPG.com forumite taking pleasure in a dream like that of many would-be designers among us being dragged through a new financial Hell as if to prove that only mediocre toy-like projects 'succeed'.
I hope that Sigil can pull through this without being dragged down to the current regressive shtick of certain other existing and upcoming MMOs: disregard for immersion, disregard for applicability, disregard for fascinating experiences, insultingly farcical art direction, uglily proportioned characters, et cetera.
If they are dragged down: oh, well. Maybe the market will be ready in another few years. Both McQuaid and Koster are truly, damnably ahead of this industry's nervous rate of progression and are saddeningly inhibited by corporations and audiences who fail to acknowledge the perspicacity of entertainment, the applicability of fantasy, the power of interactivity therein, or to give a fuck about where we are going.
Yeah, all you callous meanies. Don't you realize the most important thing is that Brad's dream was crushed!?
He could have cried, you know. Don't you people know how much of a burden it is for him to continue collecting a fat paycheck as a consultant, while half of his exemployees have to worry about being able to pay their rent?
You think it's easy for him to shift the blame for his complete lack of business sense, or managerial skills onto Microsoft? I mean, come on, expecting him to meet milestones, and prove that he's actually spending their money in a worthwhile fashion? He's an artist, damnit. Microsoft should have known enough to just trust the Vision, and throw money at it until the game was ready.
And lastly, shame on you all for your poor computers, and your inability to see past your simple minded ideas like wanting a fun game. Clearly, your puny Earth monkey minds cannot fathom the sheer complexity of a fine piece of art such as Vanguard was before Microsoft ruined it for the five of us that were intellectually elite enough to appreciate it for transcending the boundaries of being a mere video game, and becoming something sublime, and other large words from the thesaurus. Your lack of verbosity clearly defines your inferior thought processes, and as such, I deem you no longer worthy to speak of such matters.
Yeah, all you callous meanies. Don't you realize the most important thing is that Brad's dream was crushed!? He could have cried, you know. Don't you people know how much of a burden it is for him to continue collecting a fat paycheck as a consultant, while half of his exemployees have to worry about being able to pay their rent? You think it's easy for him to shift the blame for his complete lack of business sense, or managerial skills onto Microsoft? I mean, come on, expecting him to meet milestones, and prove that he's actually spending their money in a worthwhile fashion? He's an artist, damnit. Microsoft should have known enough to just trust the Vision, and throw money at it until the game was ready. And lastly, shame on you all for your poor computers, and your inability to see past your simple minded ideas like wanting a fun game. Clearly, your puny Earth monkey minds cannot fathom the sheer complexity of a fine piece of art such as Vanguard was before Microsoft ruined it for the five of us that were intellectually elite enough to appreciate it for transcending the boundaries of being a mere video game, and becoming something sublime, and other large words from the thesaurus. Your lack of verbosity clearly defines your inferior thought processes, and as such, I deem you no longer worthy to speak of such matters.
That is an impressive rant Brad spewed. I have to admit I am a card carrying Sony hater and had blamed SOE for all that was wrong with Vanguard. But this...my eyes are open. This flop really wasn’t SOEs fault. Who would have guessed?
I can’t believe Brad could sit there and blame Microsoft for all of Vanguards problems whining about setting schedules and wanting milestones. DUH! You can’t develop good software without them…You can’t develop good ANYTHING without them. It amazes me that Brad could not only try to run a company without understanding this, but worse, not get a clue with all that has happened and understand that HE is responsible because he didn’t understand this. It is amazing.
This article is going to make it into a lot of management and systems engineering courses as a prime example of what NOT to do.
That is an impressive rant Brad spewed. I have to admit I am a card carrying Sony hater and had blamed SOE for all that was wrong with Vanguard. But this...my eyes are open. This flop really wasn’t SOEs fault. Who would have guessed?
I can’t believe Brad could sit there and blame Microsoft for all of Vanguards problems whining about setting schedules and wanting milestones. DUH! You can’t develop good software without them…You can’t develop good ANYTHING without them. It amazes me that Brad could not only try to run a company without understanding this, but worse, not get a clue with all that has happened and understand that HE is responsible because he didn’t understand this. It is amazing.
This article is going to make it into a lot of management and systems engineering courses as a prime example of what NOT to do.
Nice. Did you skim it, or what?
You cannot develop anything as artistic as a modern MMO with the expectations laid out by Microsoft. This is clearly not Microsoft's field. Mythica was cancelled because Microsoft lost interest, considering it a lower priority than their other concerns. When Microsoft decides to cut funding from -- or stop funding -- something that was relying upon them, that thing suffers.
They were dedicated to competing with the lucrative genre, but changed their minds when the Xbox 360, a technological rather than artistic project, looked more lucrative.
Sigil's own mistake was partnering with Microsoft in the first place. I believe they should have anticipated that a company awfully inexperienced with MMOs or other maximally artistic projects would not have sufficient understanding of what such development can and cannot entail. But Vanguard needed Microsoft's riches, and of course passion and necessity outweighed caution and compromise. They were faced with the decision of either risking a partnership with Microsoft for their money and technology or lessening what the project could be, and choosing the former backfired.
One cannot blame Microsoft for their apparent incompatability with the genre, but that is what happened and I doubt that a Microsoft representative would say differently after the experience. There were individuals who were so enthralled by Vanguard that they left Microsoft to work with Sigil when the split occurred, if that tells you anything about what agreement might be found.
Favorites: EQ, EVE | Playing: None. Mostly VR and strategy | Anticipating: CU, Pantheon
To the guy who thinks Brad is a red-head. Are you confusing him with Jeff Butler? To all those who havent read all the way to the bottom of the interview, there is an addendum that clarifies Jeff and Michelle Butler were in the process of divorcing when he started dating April. An amicable divorce may seem unthinkable to some of you but is more common than you realise.
It has nothing to do with divorce and everything to do with a stable, professional office environment. I personally don't care that Butler was fucking the marketing director while getting divorced from his wife. The point is, they did all of that in the same office, and it was openly known. THAT is the issue.
I used to work in radio many years back, and one of the first and foremost rules was that office relationships were verboten because they got in the way of a professional environment. If two people showed interest in each other, it was "suggested" that they keep it all out of the office, and more often than not, one of the people involved would end up going to work elsewhere so they could work in a career they liked, and be with someone they wanted. The relationship itself isn't the issue. It's the effect that kind of soap opera shit has on an office and its morale that is the point.
When you've got dozens of employees and millions on the line, that kind of drama has to take a backseat to getting the job done. When people know that sort of stuff is going on, and nothing is done about it, it starts to get in the way of anything being done, and people start getting more lax about things. Why should they care about something being done professionally, or with any sort of care when even at the highest levels, something like that is going on, and everyone knows?
WAIT...... I really think before anyone criticizes him for some office banging that we need to see what this female marketing director looks like.
I know 2 marketing woman where I work that....... Lets just say.. Its good for all of you I don't make MMO's cause my shit would never be finished.
And if it was the redhead.... OMG I would nerf your toons to hell and not even care.
Sigil's own mistake was partnering with Microsoft in the first place. I believe they should have anticipated that a company awfully inexperienced with MMOs or other maximally artistic projects would not have sufficient understanding of what such development can and cannot entail. But Vanguard needed Microsoft's riches, and of course passion and necessity outweighed caution and compromise. They were faced with the decision of either risking a partnership with Microsoft for their money and technology or lessening what the project could be, and choosing the former backfired.
Please.
Sigil's biggest mistakes were these:
1. Having a CEO with a spineless leadership style and no head for business. McQuaid is, at best, an idea guy. But a CEO has to be both an idea guy and a taskmaster, making sure things get done since it's the CEO who is on the firing line with any and all investors, and who is ultimately responsible for their business succeeding or failing. A good CEO also has to inspire his workers by setting an example. What kind of example is set when the guy in charge bails on his own team the way Brad did?
2. Lack of discipline in the office. Even Smed, in his most recent interview, said that Sigil's employees were more focused on internal issues than on the game. Why? Because the company was being poorly run, and wasn't organized at all. The game that was released came out in spite of Brad, his Vision, and the Sigil management team not because of any of them.
Microsoft's only mistake was believing in Brad McQuaid's pitch. Why shouldn't they have? Here was a good portion of the team who'd been instrumental in making EverQuest, which at the time was the biggest MMO in the genre. And they had an idea for a new game, and they were looking for sponsorship. Microsoft agreeed, figuring if lightning had struck once for these guys, they should be able to do it again.
That Sigil ultimately failed isn't Microsoft's fault. And it's not SOE's either. It's Sigil's. Period.
Nikoz78, were you, by any chance, in the Vanguard beta while it was funded by Microsoft? Because I was, and I agree with you, if I understand you correctly. What I experienced in Beta 1 and Beta 2 was beautiful. The interface was completely different (about a dozen different interchangeable interfaces designed by Tom King!), there were more innovative game mechanics (wounds, spellbooks, a wider range of body customisation, et cetera), the graphics were more to my liking (dark nights, non-overbright days, tastefully magical spell effects, subtler weapon effects, more hair-like and mediaeval hair meshes, et cetera), and the rate of development was blindingly fast and very efficient. Communication with the public community and the beta testers was amazingly frequent, detailed, helpful, even personal and entertaining. Sigil didn't move on to the next milestone until the current target milestone was perfected. Microsoft's money was being put to good use. Come the regime change at Microsoft, development slowed, the servers suffered, and Sigil generally seemed to lack the support they once had from Microsoft.
Beta 1 began in the middle of October 2005. Xbox 360 launched on the latter end of November.
It sounds like you're saying the "regime change" occurred somewhere in that timeframe and began ruining your experience. But how can that be? You mentioned Beta 2 as being pleasurable as well; that began during the middle of December 2005 after the Xbox 360 had already shipped. Doesn't Brad's whole story about the terrible Zoo Tycoon regime have to do with the 360's imminent launch receiving more attention?
What Brad described and you're trying to link to the way early Beta panned out isn't related. More than likely a "regime change" occured in early 2005, or even as far back as 2004 or 2003.
Originally posted by Saerain
Come SOE, the interface became EverQuest II's interface, wounds were scrapped, spellbooks were scrapped, body customisation was limited, nights grew brighter, days grew brighter, cities became more like 'storybook' fantasy, animations became more comical, spell effects became floating icons, weapon effects went Final Fantasy, hair turned to EQ2-wax, and by Beta 4 the implementation of classes was visibly becoming a rushed affair. During Beta 4 and 5, milestones were being either tossed in haphazardly or dropped. Sigil had planned Vanguard with Microsoft's funding in mind. Microsoft had been funding Sigil with the money they needed to realise their goals, but when Microsoft replaced Sigil's Microsoft associates with folks in charge of the Xbox 360, it inevitably suffered a lack of 'attention' from Microsoft. While Microsoft had initially been a match made in Heaven, Microsoft had changed and now they needed a new partner. When the deal with SOE was made, Sigil was stuck with a half-completed game which had been designed from the ground up with Microsoft's immense financial backing in mind. They now had more time and a more experienced partner, but significantly less funding. More than Microsoft's latter-day funding, but less than Microsoft's initial funding. They were indeed 'screwed' by Microsoft in favour of the console market, and SOE was willing to try catching that fall, which was valiant, but the money still couldn't compare to what Microsoft cut.
So after 4 years and tens of millions of dollars of funding, and Vanguard was only half complete, what do you suggest Microsoft had reasonably done? Given another 4 more years and tens of millions of dollars more? Yeah right.
What you're basically saying is that Vanguard would've been ok had Microsoft written blank checks and asked no questions, and simply trusted in Sigil's genius. Well get real, Vanguard was deceptively shown to the public; preaching player cities when guild functionality wasn't even in game until a month or two leading up to release, showing all of these lagless demo reels devoid of chunking while we were staring at placeholder numeric icons and /flush'ing every 2 minutes in Beta 3.
I can't imagine how bad off Vanguard was when Microsoft issued their mandate; especially after a supposed stint of deceiving Microsoft with the same kind of deceptive demos Brad and Jeff pawned off to the press throughout 2006 full of player owned flying mounts and such.
Originally posted by Saerain
This change begot many changes. Some, I mentioned above. Others are only becoming apparent after release as patches layer in. Some elements of the initial vision made it in. Others have yet to come. Some seemed to be overridden by the influence of SOE's backing, despite claims to the contrary, or simply by the loss of a great deal of initially available funding. Others seemed to be overridden by the outcries of the late waves of unfocused beta testers with their heads stuck up their Azeroth. The comments on Brad McQuaid's 'ego' strike me as absurd, coming as they do from anonymous players who believe they know better than a person who has made this their life -- especially a person such as Brad who spent an unprecedented amount of time on the official forums during development, with many other members of the team, interacting with the community on a very honest and human level like no major developer has ever done before. Some people are balking at how he supposedly blames Vanguard's financial quake on its players, while I must be blind to have seen no such blame being placed -- as justified as I am irritated enough to believe it would partially be. Having met and been in discussions with McQuaid and other members of the team personally, I found him an extremely down-to-earth man with whom it was a pleasure to speak with on any subject. If Sigil seems confident about Vanguard, it is passion, not ego. Ego is the MPOGD.com writer saying that Sigil has 'finally seen the light'. Ego is an MMORPG.com forumite taking pleasure in a dream like that of many would-be designers among us being dragged through a new financial Hell as if to prove that only mediocre toy-like projects 'succeed'. I feel much worse for the throng of lost employees than I do for Brad McQuaid, of course, which is saying a great deal, because I respect and admire Brad more than any single developer anywhere. I hope every former member of Sigil, from CEO to iguana, can pull through this without being dragged down to the current regressive shtick of certain other existing and upcoming MMOs: disregard for immersion, disregard for applicability, disregard for fascinating experiences, insultingly farcical art direction, uglily proportioned characters, et cetera. Don't abandon your principles. Keep up the good work. Fight the good fight. Let the Vision be seen.
Someone has to do this. That classic fantasy quality which Sigil tried to capture is so lacking from this genre. Both McQuaid and Koster are truly, damnably ahead of this industry's nervous rate of progression and are saddeningly inhibited by corporations and audiences who fail to acknowledge the perspicacity of entertainment, the applicability of fantasy, the power of interactivity therein, or to give a fuck about where we are going.
Um.
I'll settle for a good, playable game. If its artistic, full of fantasy and all that other stuff you just spewed out, that's all good too. All of it is hogwash though if it isn't a good (appeals to a majority of people), playable (works a majority of people's PCs) game (there's more content packed chunks than there are empty chunks).
So while you attempt to associate the mentioning of Azeroth to ideas adverse to immersiveness, fascinating experiences and solid art directions, those are things World of Warcraft actually embodied and Vanguard failed at; and it wasn't Zoo Tycoon or Xbox 360's fault.
Saerain, out of the 245 posts in this thread, yours was -by far- the deepest, most thoughtful and most articulate observation yet. Very well said.
Coldmeat, it's funny, but your avatar and sig had me thinking you were a deep and thoughtful person yourself... guess thats just an image as you seem to be as bitter and un-objective as a lot of others around here.
It's truly disheartening how shallow some people are.
I have nothing left to contribute to this topic.
I'm out.
I miss the good ol' days when nerds were actually intelligent.
You cannot develop anything as artistic as a modern MMO with the expectations laid out by Microsoft. This is clearly not Microsoft's field. Mythica was cancelled because Microsoft lost interest, considering it a lower priority than their other concerns. When Microsoft decides to cut funding from -- or stop funding -- something that was relying upon them, that thing suffers. They were dedicated to competing with the lucrative genre, but changed their minds when the Xbox 360, a technological rather than artistic project, looked more lucrative. Sigil's own mistake was partnering with Microsoft in the first place. I believe they should have anticipated that a company awfully inexperienced with MMOs or other maximally artistic projects would not have sufficient understanding of what such development can and cannot entail. But Vanguard needed Microsoft's riches, and of course passion and necessity outweighed caution and compromise. They were faced with the decision of either risking a partnership with Microsoft for their money and technology or lessening what the project could be, and choosing the former backfired. One cannot blame Microsoft for their apparent incompatability with the genre, but that is what happened and I doubt that a Microsoft representative would say differently after the experience. There were individuals who were so enthralled by Vanguard that they left Microsoft to work with Sigil when the split occurred, if that tells you anything about what agreement might be found.
So, in other words, Microsoft should have given Sigil as much money as Sigil wanted regardless? That is an absolutely horrible business model. Even I only gave the carpenter who did some work in my home a 50% deposit. I wanted to see what was done and getting done so that I had the opportunity to kick him to the curb if he wasn't able to do the job.
Your implication here is that because MS wouldn't hand unlimited sackfuls of money to Sigil, the project was doomed. MS was investing in an MMO game title. They had every right to set benchmarks and review project management. You have no knowledge that MS wouldn't have seen what they liked and given Sigil another $30 million or more.
If $30+ million and benchmarks were unpalatable to Sigil, they should have looked for another sponsor.
I have never played Vanguard, but have followed the issues around it since beta. I kept thinking about going for it and buying it, but too many problems kept coming up. Coming from someone who was on the outside looking in and considering joining the Vanguard family, I have to say that Sigil and Brad totally ruined a game that was supposed to be innovative.....blah blah blah. I beta tested a game called Horizons from early on all the way through release and Vanguard reminds me of the exact poo flinging that went on there.
So much hype was thrown around about Vanguard that many people started to fall for it, but I kept remembering the same exact hype from the Horizons crew and stayed cautiously away until the game was proven. Well, looks like the same stuff here that happened at Horizons, a game very poorly coded, management that blew more hot air than in a balloon, and fanboys who spouted the virtues of the game like religious zealots. Those people who were a part of the Horizons debacle know what I am talking about and can see the same thing happened here, but on a much grander scale.
Brad McQuaid then comes out and spews about how its not his fault or Sigil's fault and blames everyone else. Uhmmm.........
You guys coded the game and spewed out the heap of lies that were supposed to be promises of the games greatness. Brad himself and others have stated how he went to forums (even these) to promote the game. When you have to do that, you know something is wrong and are trying to bandaid it in front of the public. Many people fell for the propaganda and many saw through it. I had some friends who started to buy the game until I told them to check into it first and do some searching through articles, reviews, and such. They came to their senses fast without me even trying to say anything about the game, just to check up first.
People think Brad is some kind of legend, and yes he is, but not the kind you talk about to friends. Brad helped bring EQ and the horrible style of play that came with it to the masses and should be infamous, not famous. EQ did nothing for the industry but turn online games into jobs and a boring tedious grind. WoW did not start it, but enhanced it even more with their popularity.
So, to all those extorting his virtues and coming to his aid, once again believing his line of utter BS..............
wake up
He has done more harm to the industry as a whole than he did to help it and for once I wish people would just realize it and be done with him and his kind who think the majority of gamers want to play his type of game.
Originally posted by Nikoz78 Saerain, out of the 245 posts in this thread, yours was -by far- the deepest, most thoughtful and most articulate observation yet. Very well said.Coldmeat, it's funny, but your avatar and sig had me thinking you were a deep and thoughtful person yourself... guess thats just an image as you seem to be as bitter and un-objective as a lot of others around here. It's truly disheartening how shallow some people are.I have nothing left to contribute to this topic. I'm out.
Bitter? Hardly. The only thing to be bitter about was that there wasn't someone with an iota of professionalism, and/or managerial skill on the team that could have stepped up, and kept the ship above water, so to speak. I said back when that Brad was a good designer, and a piss poor manager, and that the blame for the games state belonged to him and the rest of the management team, rather than SOE, the developers, Microsoft, or Satan.
As it so happens, I was right.
As for being non-objective, as always, had your post been making the opposite point, you'd have gotten the same response from me.
So the latest mantra of the VG diehards is, "It's Microsoft's fault."
Pretty much, since that seems to be Brad's mantra.
According to him, things were peachy keen until there was some sort of management shift at MS, then it all went to shit because they started doing crazy things like asking questions, setting benchmarks and deadlines, and wanting to see how their money was being spent.
Oh, and somehow, the XBox 360 and Zoo Tycoon are to blame for Vanguard falling apart. It has nothing to do with bad management, poor planning, or gross mismanagement of time and money. It's all Microsoft's fault now.
Apparently, a multi-billion dollar corporation doesn't have the right to interfere with the creative processs of a tortured, passionate soul, even though that company is pouring tens of millions of dollars into that person's dream of making a game. Who knew?
I believe that the affair and the divorce that occurred within the office coupled in with the hiring of everyones brother and sister lead to the downfall of VG. Not to mention brads christian beliefs.
Those are all revelent to making a great mmorpg. pfft who needs development tools anyways.
Oh, and somehow, the XBox 360 and Zoo Tycoon are to blame for Vanguard falling apart. It has nothing to do with bad management, poor planning, or gross mismanagement of time and money. It's all Microsoft's fault now.
Apparently, a multi-billion dollar corporation doesn't have the right to interfere with the creative processs of a tortured, passionate soul, even though that company is pouring tens of millions of dollars into that person's dream of making a game. Who knew?
I am waiting for the inevitable other shoe to drop and hear that if only MS had stopped working on Longhorn and Vista, Brad and Sigil would currently have a WoW killer on their hands.
Saerain, out of the 245 posts in this thread, yours was -by far- the deepest, most thoughtful and most articulate observation yet. Very well said.
Coldmeat, it's funny, but your avatar and sig had me thinking you were a deep and thoughtful person yourself... guess thats just an image as you seem to be as bitter and un-objective as a lot of others around here. It's truly disheartening how shallow some people are. I have nothing left to contribute to this topic. I'm out.
Bitter? Hardly. The only thing to be bitter about was that there wasn't someone with an iota of professionalism, and/or managerial skill on the team that could have stepped up, and kept the ship above water, so to speak. I said back when that Brad was a good designer, and a piss poor manager, and that the blame for the games state belonged to him and the rest of the management team, rather than SOE, the developers, Microsoft, or Satan.
As it so happens, I was right.
As for being non-objective, as always, had your post been making the opposite point, you'd have gotten the same response from me.
Hehe, no you are wrong lets all blame it on Satan! You got me laughing there
well,from what i read was from this interview i got this from it:
Microsoft got too demanding and impatient and was distracted with the X Box and after Sigil got away from them things got weird inside Sigil.
it was kind of like a real soap opera.cheating on your spouse and a power struggle for control of things.people like me won't ever know what really happened but i still stick up for Brad.he trusted these people and gave them jobs and they went behind his back and i think eventually things got way out of hand.
A coup attempt! Do you guys know what that means?Everyone turned on the captain!how could the captain command the ship when they were all against him?
I think there are some people who are not getting their fair share of blame and you guys are being way too mean to Brad.
i read that there was a "coup" attempt.What really happened? we will never know but i think brad is getting too much blame.
The boss never really does anything ,that is how real life is.So i think it's not mostly his fault.
I think Brad is the goat,but it's the guy just under him who should get the biggest blame.
Micrsoft gave Brad 30+ million dollars to make a Triple A MMORPG. If they asked him to do a naked tap dance he needed to be asking what sort of shoes he should wear. They paid for the right to start asking questions and wondering why Sigil couldn't show anything of value to it's fans, to E3 and most importantly to MS, their investor. Who cares if they started focusing on the Xbox 360, they had given you 30 million dollars and you didn't do anything with it.
Most of the time when a Mutiny happens it's because the captain is doing something stupid like ramming into the same iceberg over and over. Read the developer post and his interview over again and tell me that Brad isn't a pig headed selfish wank who probably never listnened to his employees.
I will agree that Brad isn't the only one to blame but everyone else sunk with the ship while Brad stayed home. I know he has watched enough Star Trek to know that you always go down with the ship. He may have hid from his employees but the fans will sink him now.
Indeed. Think of the quarterbacks in football, or presidents of countries. Many of the things that happen are out of their hands, but they get the blame. And it is to be expected. They are the leaders. If your company tanks, it is your fault, and you deserve the blame.
As the token religious guy in any game i play, organization i write for, etc, I can say pretty safely, one of the things that is most important about the Christian faith that I myself profess, and Brad says he does, is accountability for one's actions. Accountability and repentance. Its obvious that Brad's decisions caused these people to lose their jobs. The least he could do, out of the Christian charity he believes, is be man enough to face them, and maybe even apologize.
Whole heartedly agree. If Brad is going to play the ultra sensitive "I might cry" and I'm "deeply religious" angle then it completely contradicts him not facing his demons and looking all these people he hired in the eye and telling them things went really bad in person. I'm sorry but you don't shop for money for eight months and still go belly up. He was sitting at home alot of these times because he knew things were bad and didn't want to face the people he had hyped VG up to.....ie the Employees and the fans.
Comments
We should all take a lesson from your (implied) moral fiber.
Self-righteous much?
Funny how you zero in on one of the few posts that calls to criticism the unbridled hate being puked all over this thread.
I miss the good ol' days when nerds were actually intelligent.
How many of us dream to open a gaming studio to create our own dreams and see them come to life? I cannot blame him for his attempt. He can, on the other hand, be blamed for the poor management skills and his innability to seek help when it was needed. Hopefully he will be more open to advise in the future.
The event as a whole was unfortunate. My sympathies go out to all that were affected and wish them all the best of luck getting back on track.
So some don't think the game is fun and were disappointed. That gives people the sense that they have a right to say all the extreme and ugly things about a person they don't even know?
Just love how so many people in these forums think they are MMO 'experts' or something.
These forums are like a ghetto full of the most negative assholes ever assembled in one place.
Why is it so hard to believe that a huge corporation like Microsoft screwed him over? And they did! After all they did to him he still has the decency to try and speak well of them. Thats what I call professional.
I know of greed and I know the power money has over people. It's a religion of capital. It's all most people know or even consider.
I have always thought people like Raph Koster and Brad McQuaid are misunderstood and flawed artists. Laugh all you want. You say I'm "scary" because you are so 'shocked' that someone disagrees with something you believe to be a given fact.
Both these visionaries have had major failings. Koster with SWG and McQuaid with VG. Both failing because of huge corporate greed. Neither getting to fully realize their vision. Both projects destroyed due to the pursuit of more money faster.
Whats scary is the level of hate and ignorance in this thread.
Some people lost their jobs and that is terrible - almost as terrible as McQuaid losing his entire company and dream due to corporate greed. I feel sad for all at Sigil.
To McQuaid I would remind him of something Nietzsche wrote - "what can not destroy you can only make you stronger!"
Nikoz78, were you, by any chance, in the Vanguard beta while it was funded by Microsoft? Because I was, and I agree with you, if I understand you correctly.
What I experienced in Beta 1 and Beta 2 was beautiful. The interface was completely different (about a dozen different interchangeable interfaces designed by Tom King!), there were more innovative game mechanics (wounds, spellbooks, a wider range of body customisation, et cetera), the graphics were more to my liking (dark nights, non-overbright days, tastefully magical spell effects, subtler weapon effects, more hair-like and mediaeval hair meshes, et cetera), and the rate of development was blindingly fast and very efficient. Communication with the public community and the beta testers was amazingly frequent, detailed, helpful, even personal and entertaining. Sigil didn't move on to the next milestone until the current target milestone was perfected. Microsoft's money was being put to good use.
Come the regime change at Microsoft, development slowed, the servers suffered, and Sigil generally seemed to lack the support they once had from Microsoft.
Come SOE, the interface became EverQuest II's interface, wounds were scrapped, spellbooks were scrapped, body customisation was limited, nights grew brighter, days grew brighter, cities became more like 'storybook' fantasy, animations became more comical, spell effects became floating icons, weapon effects went Final Fantasy, hair turned to EQ2-wax, and by Beta 4 the implementation of classes was visibly becoming a rushed affair. During Beta 4 and 5, milestones were being either tossed in haphazardly or dropped.
Sigil had planned Vanguard with Microsoft's funding in mind. Microsoft had been funding Sigil with the money they needed to realise their goals, but when Microsoft replaced Sigil's Microsoft associates with folks in charge of the Xbox 360, it inevitably suffered a lack of 'attention' from Microsoft. While Microsoft had initially been a match made in Heaven, Microsoft had changed and now they needed a new partner. When the deal with SOE was made, Sigil was stuck with a half-completed game which had been designed from the ground up with Microsoft's immense financial backing in mind. They now had more time and a more experienced partner, but significantly less funding. More than Microsoft's latter-day funding, but less than Microsoft's initial funding. They were indeed 'screwed' by Microsoft in favour of the console market, and SOE was willing to try catching that fall, which was valiant, but the money still couldn't compare to what Microsoft cut.
This change begot many changes. Some, I mentioned above. Others are only becoming apparent after release as patches layer in. Some elements of the initial vision made it in. Others have yet to come. Some seemed to be overridden by the influence of SOE's backing, despite claims to the contrary, or simply by the loss of a great deal of initially available funding. Others seemed to be overridden by the outcries of the late waves of unfocused beta testers with their heads stuck up their Azeroth.
The comments on Brad McQuaid's 'ego' strike me as absurd, coming as they do from anonymous players who believe they know better than a person who has made this their life -- especially a person such as Brad who spent an unprecedented amount of time on the official forums during development, with many other members of the team, interacting with the community on a very honest and human level like no major developer has ever done before. Some people are balking at how he supposedly blames Vanguard's financial quake on its players, while I must be blind to have seen no such blame being placed -- as justified as I am irritated enough to believe it would partially be. Having met and been in discussions with McQuaid and other members of the team personally, I found him an extremely down-to-earth man with whom it was a pleasure to speak with on any subject. If Sigil seems confident about Vanguard, it is passion, not ego. Ego is the MPOGD.com writer saying that Sigil has 'finally seen the light'. Ego is an MMORPG.com forumite taking pleasure in a dream like that of many would-be designers among us being dragged through a new financial Hell as if to prove that only mediocre toy-like projects 'succeed'.
I feel much worse for the throng of lost employees than I do for Brad McQuaid, of course, which is saying a great deal, because I respect and admire Brad more than any single developer anywhere.
I hope every former member of Sigil, from CEO to iguana, can pull through this without being dragged down to the current regressive shtick of certain other existing and upcoming MMOs: disregard for immersion, disregard for applicability, disregard for fascinating experiences, insultingly farcical art direction, uglily proportioned characters, et cetera. Don't abandon your principles.
Keep up the good work. Fight the good fight. Let the Vision be seen.
Someone has to do this. That classic fantasy quality which Sigil tried to capture is so lacking from this genre.
Both McQuaid and Koster are truly, damnably ahead of this industry's nervous rate of progression and are saddeningly inhibited by corporations and audiences who fail to acknowledge the perspicacity of entertainment, the applicability of fantasy, the power of interactivity therein, or to give a fuck about where we are going.
So some don't think the game is fun and were disappointed. That gives people the sense that they have a right to say all the extreme and ugly things about a person they don't even know?
Just love how so many people in these forums think they are MMO 'experts' or something.
These forums are like a ghetto full of the most negative assholes ever assembled in one place.
Why is it so hard to believe that a huge corporation like Microsoft screwed him over? And they did! After all they did to him he still has the decency to try and speak well of them. Thats what I call professional.
I know of greed and I know the power money has over people. It's a religion of capital. It's all most people know or even consider.
I have always thought people like Raph Koster and Brad McQuaid are misunderstood and flawed artists. Laugh all you want. You say I'm "scary" because you are so 'shocked' that someone disagrees with something you believe to be a given fact.
Both these visionaries have had major failings. Koster with SWG and McQuaid with VG. Both failing because of huge corporate greed. Neither getting to fully realize their vision. Both projects destroyed due to the pursuit of more money faster.
Whats scary is the level of hate and ignorance in this thread.
Some people lost their jobs and that is terrible - almost as terrible as McQuaid losing his entire company and dream due to corporate greed. I feel sad for all at Sigil.
To McQuaid I would remind him of something Nietzsche wrote - "what can not destroy you can only make you stronger!"
Nikoz78, were you, by any chance, in the Vanguard beta while it was funded by Microsoft? Because I was, and I agree with you, if I understand you correctly.
What I experienced in Beta 1 and Beta 2 was beautiful. The interface was completely different (about a dozen different interchangeable interfaces designed by Tom King!), there were more innovative game mechanics (wounds, spellbooks, a wider range of body customisation, et cetera), the graphics were more to my liking (dark nights, non-overbright days, tastefully magical spell effects, subtler weapon effects, more hair-like and mediaeval hair meshes, et cetera), and the rate of development was blindingly fast and very efficient. Communication with the public community and the beta testers was amazingly frequent, detailed, helpful, even personal and entertaining. Sigil didn't move on to the next milestone until the current target milestone was perfected. Microsoft's money was being put to good use.
Come SOE, much of the direction seemed to change. The interface became EverQuest II's interface, wounds were scrapped, spellbooks were scrapped, body customisation was limited, nights grew brighter, days grew brighter, cities became more like 'storybook' fantasy, animations became more comical, spell effects became floating icons, weapon effects went Final Fantasy, hair turned to EQ2-wax, the rate of development seemed to slow down, and communication with the beta testers lessened. By Beta 4, the implementation of classes was visibly becoming a rushed affair, and during Beta 5 it was clear how milestones were being either tossed in haphazardly or dropped.
My interpretation of this was that Sigil had planned Vanguard with Microsoft's funding in mind. Microsoft had been funding Sigil with the money they needed to realise their goals, but had wanted to keep them to a shorter deadline for the soonest return for their investment. Sigil desired more time, while Microsoft was overconfident due to their inexperience in the development of MMOs. So, when the deal with Microsoft broke and the deal with SOE was made, Sigil was stuck with a half-completed game which had been designed from the ground up with Microsoft's immense financial backing in mind. They now had more time, but less funding. Their deadline was no longer set by Microsoft's timing expectations, but by SOE's lesser funding.
This change begot many changes. Some, I mentioned above. Others are only becoming apparent after release as patches layer in. Some elements of the initial vision made it in. Others have yet to come. Some seemed to be overridden by the influence of SOE, despite claims to the contrary. Others seemed to be overridden by the outcries of the late waves of unfocused beta testers with their heads stuck up their Azeroth.
The comments on Brad McQuaid's 'ego' strike me as absurd, coming as they do from anonymous players who believe they know better than a person who has made this their life -- especially a person such as Brad who spent an unprecedented amount of time on the official forums during development, with many other members of the team, interacting with the community on a very honest and human level like no major developer has ever done before. Some people are balking at how he supposedly blames Vanguard's financial quake on its players, while I must be blind to have seen no such blame being placed -- as justified as I am irritated enough to believe it would partially be. Having met and been in discussions with McQuaid and other members of the team personally, I found him an extremely down-to-earth man with whom it was a pleasure to speak with on any subject. If Sigil seems confident about Vanguard, it is passion, not ego. Ego is the MPOGD.com writer saying that Sigil has 'finally seen the light'. Ego is an MMORPG.com forumite taking pleasure in a dream like that of many would-be designers among us being dragged through a new financial Hell as if to prove that only mediocre toy-like projects 'succeed'.
I hope that Sigil can pull through this without being dragged down to the current regressive shtick of certain other existing and upcoming MMOs: disregard for immersion, disregard for applicability, disregard for fascinating experiences, insultingly farcical art direction, uglily proportioned characters, et cetera.
If they are dragged down: oh, well. Maybe the market will be ready in another few years. Both McQuaid and Koster are truly, damnably ahead of this industry's nervous rate of progression and are saddeningly inhibited by corporations and audiences who fail to acknowledge the perspicacity of entertainment, the applicability of fantasy, the power of interactivity therein, or to give a fuck about where we are going.
Both Saerain and Nikoz78 very well put.Yeah, all you callous meanies. Don't you realize the most important thing is that Brad's dream was crushed!?
He could have cried, you know. Don't you people know how much of a burden it is for him to continue collecting a fat paycheck as a consultant, while half of his exemployees have to worry about being able to pay their rent?
You think it's easy for him to shift the blame for his complete lack of business sense, or managerial skills onto Microsoft? I mean, come on, expecting him to meet milestones, and prove that he's actually spending their money in a worthwhile fashion? He's an artist, damnit. Microsoft should have known enough to just trust the Vision, and throw money at it until the game was ready.
And lastly, shame on you all for your poor computers, and your inability to see past your simple minded ideas like wanting a fun game. Clearly, your puny Earth monkey minds cannot fathom the sheer complexity of a fine piece of art such as Vanguard was before Microsoft ruined it for the five of us that were intellectually elite enough to appreciate it for transcending the boundaries of being a mere video game, and becoming something sublime, and other large words from the thesaurus. Your lack of verbosity clearly defines your inferior thought processes, and as such, I deem you no longer worthy to speak of such matters.
"The buck stops here."
"Here" in this case clearly being the Zoo Tycoon people.
Shame it was a phone interview. I'd have liked to have seen him say some of those things with a straight face.
Do try to not bleed on the carpet. We just had it steam cleaned.
Nice. Did you skim it, or what?
You cannot develop anything as artistic as a modern MMO with the expectations laid out by Microsoft. This is clearly not Microsoft's field. Mythica was cancelled because Microsoft lost interest, considering it a lower priority than their other concerns. When Microsoft decides to cut funding from -- or stop funding -- something that was relying upon them, that thing suffers.
They were dedicated to competing with the lucrative genre, but changed their minds when the Xbox 360, a technological rather than artistic project, looked more lucrative.
Sigil's own mistake was partnering with Microsoft in the first place. I believe they should have anticipated that a company awfully inexperienced with MMOs or other maximally artistic projects would not have sufficient understanding of what such development can and cannot entail. But Vanguard needed Microsoft's riches, and of course passion and necessity outweighed caution and compromise. They were faced with the decision of either risking a partnership with Microsoft for their money and technology or lessening what the project could be, and choosing the former backfired.
One cannot blame Microsoft for their apparent incompatability with the genre, but that is what happened and I doubt that a Microsoft representative would say differently after the experience. There were individuals who were so enthralled by Vanguard that they left Microsoft to work with Sigil when the split occurred, if that tells you anything about what agreement might be found.
It has nothing to do with divorce and everything to do with a stable, professional office environment. I personally don't care that Butler was fucking the marketing director while getting divorced from his wife. The point is, they did all of that in the same office, and it was openly known. THAT is the issue.
I used to work in radio many years back, and one of the first and foremost rules was that office relationships were verboten because they got in the way of a professional environment. If two people showed interest in each other, it was "suggested" that they keep it all out of the office, and more often than not, one of the people involved would end up going to work elsewhere so they could work in a career they liked, and be with someone they wanted. The relationship itself isn't the issue. It's the effect that kind of soap opera shit has on an office and its morale that is the point.
When you've got dozens of employees and millions on the line, that kind of drama has to take a backseat to getting the job done. When people know that sort of stuff is going on, and nothing is done about it, it starts to get in the way of anything being done, and people start getting more lax about things. Why should they care about something being done professionally, or with any sort of care when even at the highest levels, something like that is going on, and everyone knows?
WAIT...... I really think before anyone criticizes him for some office banging that we need to see what this female marketing director looks like.
I know 2 marketing woman where I work that....... Lets just say.. Its good for all of you I don't make MMO's cause my shit would never be finished.
And if it was the redhead.... OMG I would nerf your toons to hell and not even care.
Please.
Sigil's biggest mistakes were these:
1. Having a CEO with a spineless leadership style and no head for business. McQuaid is, at best, an idea guy. But a CEO has to be both an idea guy and a taskmaster, making sure things get done since it's the CEO who is on the firing line with any and all investors, and who is ultimately responsible for their business succeeding or failing. A good CEO also has to inspire his workers by setting an example. What kind of example is set when the guy in charge bails on his own team the way Brad did?
2. Lack of discipline in the office. Even Smed, in his most recent interview, said that Sigil's employees were more focused on internal issues than on the game. Why? Because the company was being poorly run, and wasn't organized at all. The game that was released came out in spite of Brad, his Vision, and the Sigil management team not because of any of them.
Microsoft's only mistake was believing in Brad McQuaid's pitch. Why shouldn't they have? Here was a good portion of the team who'd been instrumental in making EverQuest, which at the time was the biggest MMO in the genre. And they had an idea for a new game, and they were looking for sponsorship. Microsoft agreeed, figuring if lightning had struck once for these guys, they should be able to do it again.
That Sigil ultimately failed isn't Microsoft's fault. And it's not SOE's either. It's Sigil's. Period.
This is so fracked up when he came out to hype the game not too long ago but hes not even part of the DEV anymore.
It sounds like you're saying the "regime change" occurred somewhere in that timeframe and began ruining your experience. But how can that be? You mentioned Beta 2 as being pleasurable as well; that began during the middle of December 2005 after the Xbox 360 had already shipped. Doesn't Brad's whole story about the terrible Zoo Tycoon regime have to do with the 360's imminent launch receiving more attention?
What Brad described and you're trying to link to the way early Beta panned out isn't related. More than likely a "regime change" occured in early 2005, or even as far back as 2004 or 2003.
So after 4 years and tens of millions of dollars of funding, and Vanguard was only half complete, what do you suggest Microsoft had reasonably done? Given another 4 more years and tens of millions of dollars more? Yeah right.
What you're basically saying is that Vanguard would've been ok had Microsoft written blank checks and asked no questions, and simply trusted in Sigil's genius. Well get real, Vanguard was deceptively shown to the public; preaching player cities when guild functionality wasn't even in game until a month or two leading up to release, showing all of these lagless demo reels devoid of chunking while we were staring at placeholder numeric icons and /flush'ing every 2 minutes in Beta 3.
I can't imagine how bad off Vanguard was when Microsoft issued their mandate; especially after a supposed stint of deceiving Microsoft with the same kind of deceptive demos Brad and Jeff pawned off to the press throughout 2006 full of player owned flying mounts and such.
Um.
I'll settle for a good, playable game. If its artistic, full of fantasy and all that other stuff you just spewed out, that's all good too. All of it is hogwash though if it isn't a good (appeals to a majority of people), playable (works a majority of people's PCs) game (there's more content packed chunks than there are empty chunks).
So while you attempt to associate the mentioning of Azeroth to ideas adverse to immersiveness, fascinating experiences and solid art directions, those are things World of Warcraft actually embodied and Vanguard failed at; and it wasn't Zoo Tycoon or Xbox 360's fault.
Saerain, out of the 245 posts in this thread, yours was -by far- the deepest, most thoughtful and most articulate observation yet. Very well said.
Coldmeat, it's funny, but your avatar and sig had me thinking you were a deep and thoughtful person yourself... guess thats just an image as you seem to be as bitter and un-objective as a lot of others around here.
It's truly disheartening how shallow some people are.
I have nothing left to contribute to this topic.
I'm out.
I miss the good ol' days when nerds were actually intelligent.
Your implication here is that because MS wouldn't hand unlimited sackfuls of money to Sigil, the project was doomed. MS was investing in an MMO game title. They had every right to set benchmarks and review project management. You have no knowledge that MS wouldn't have seen what they liked and given Sigil another $30 million or more.
If $30+ million and benchmarks were unpalatable to Sigil, they should have looked for another sponsor.
So much hype was thrown around about Vanguard that many people started to fall for it, but I kept remembering the same exact hype from the Horizons crew and stayed cautiously away until the game was proven. Well, looks like the same stuff here that happened at Horizons, a game very poorly coded, management that blew more hot air than in a balloon, and fanboys who spouted the virtues of the game like religious zealots. Those people who were a part of the Horizons debacle know what I am talking about and can see the same thing happened here, but on a much grander scale.
Brad McQuaid then comes out and spews about how its not his fault or Sigil's fault and blames everyone else. Uhmmm.........
You guys coded the game and spewed out the heap of lies that were supposed to be promises of the games greatness. Brad himself and others have stated how he went to forums (even these) to promote the game. When you have to do that, you know something is wrong and are trying to bandaid it in front of the public. Many people fell for the propaganda and many saw through it. I had some friends who started to buy the game until I told them to check into it first and do some searching through articles, reviews, and such. They came to their senses fast without me even trying to say anything about the game, just to check up first.
People think Brad is some kind of legend, and yes he is, but not the kind you talk about to friends. Brad helped bring EQ and the horrible style of play that came with it to the masses and should be infamous, not famous. EQ did nothing for the industry but turn online games into jobs and a boring tedious grind. WoW did not start it, but enhanced it even more with their popularity.
So, to all those extorting his virtues and coming to his aid, once again believing his line of utter BS..............
wake up
He has done more harm to the industry as a whole than he did to help it and for once I wish people would just realize it and be done with him and his kind who think the majority of gamers want to play his type of game.
Bitter? Hardly. The only thing to be bitter about was that there wasn't someone with an iota of professionalism, and/or managerial skill on the team that could have stepped up, and kept the ship above water, so to speak. I said back when that Brad was a good designer, and a piss poor manager, and that the blame for the games state belonged to him and the rest of the management team, rather than SOE, the developers, Microsoft, or Satan.
As it so happens, I was right.
As for being non-objective, as always, had your post been making the opposite point, you'd have gotten the same response from me.
So the latest mantra of the VG diehards is, "It's Microsoft's fault."
I should have seen this coming. But anyway, thank you for your great posts, Coldmeat and Lidane.
Pretty much, since that seems to be Brad's mantra.
According to him, things were peachy keen until there was some sort of management shift at MS, then it all went to shit because they started doing crazy things like asking questions, setting benchmarks and deadlines, and wanting to see how their money was being spent.
Oh, and somehow, the XBox 360 and Zoo Tycoon are to blame for Vanguard falling apart. It has nothing to do with bad management, poor planning, or gross mismanagement of time and money. It's all Microsoft's fault now.
Apparently, a multi-billion dollar corporation doesn't have the right to interfere with the creative processs of a tortured, passionate soul, even though that company is pouring tens of millions of dollars into that person's dream of making a game. Who knew?
Those are all revelent to making a great mmorpg. pfft who needs development tools anyways.
If only.
Bitter? Hardly. The only thing to be bitter about was that there wasn't someone with an iota of professionalism, and/or managerial skill on the team that could have stepped up, and kept the ship above water, so to speak. I said back when that Brad was a good designer, and a piss poor manager, and that the blame for the games state belonged to him and the rest of the management team, rather than SOE, the developers, Microsoft, or Satan.
As it so happens, I was right.
As for being non-objective, as always, had your post been making the opposite point, you'd have gotten the same response from me.
Hehe, no you are wrong lets all blame it on Satan! You got me laughing thereMicrsoft gave Brad 30+ million dollars to make a Triple A MMORPG. If they asked him to do a naked tap dance he needed to be asking what sort of shoes he should wear. They paid for the right to start asking questions and wondering why Sigil couldn't show anything of value to it's fans, to E3 and most importantly to MS, their investor. Who cares if they started focusing on the Xbox 360, they had given you 30 million dollars and you didn't do anything with it.
Most of the time when a Mutiny happens it's because the captain is doing something stupid like ramming into the same iceberg over and over. Read the developer post and his interview over again and tell me that Brad isn't a pig headed selfish wank who probably never listnened to his employees.
I will agree that Brad isn't the only one to blame but everyone else sunk with the ship while Brad stayed home. I know he has watched enough Star Trek to know that you always go down with the ship. He may have hid from his employees but the fans will sink him now.
Indeed. Think of the quarterbacks in football, or presidents of countries. Many of the things that happen are out of their hands, but they get the blame. And it is to be expected. They are the leaders. If your company tanks, it is your fault, and you deserve the blame.
As the token religious guy in any game i play, organization i write for, etc, I can say pretty safely, one of the things that is most important about the Christian faith that I myself profess, and Brad says he does, is accountability for one's actions. Accountability and repentance. Its obvious that Brad's decisions caused these people to lose their jobs. The least he could do, out of the Christian charity he believes, is be man enough to face them, and maybe even apologize.
Whole heartedly agree. If Brad is going to play the ultra sensitive "I might cry" and I'm "deeply religious" angle then it completely contradicts him not facing his demons and looking all these people he hired in the eye and telling them things went really bad in person. I'm sorry but you don't shop for money for eight months and still go belly up. He was sitting at home alot of these times because he knew things were bad and didn't want to face the people he had hyped VG up to.....ie the Employees and the fans.