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The reasons for Vet animus, a summary
iceman00
Member Posts: 1,363
"Quit your whining already, Pre-CU is dead."
We are told this constantly, and it is believed that this is somehow an effective argument. However, most of the vets tend to say:
EVEN IF TOMORROW PRE-CU SERVERS (OR CU SERVERS FOR THAT MATTER) WERE INTRODUCED, THE MAJORITY OF VETS WOULD STILL NOT COME BACK.
Why is this? The issue many times has almost NOTHING to do with the gameplay, as it does with the way SOE treated their customers, and engaged in some of the shadiest business practices seen in an MMO to boot. Now some say the past is the past, and it no longer matters.
Nobody would want this to be true more than SOE. Yet when they completed their takeover of Vangaurd (that was entirely predictable from a businessmodel the minute an MMO giant had a limited financial interest in an independent MMO), their CEO felt it neccessary to out of the blue state that he will not make the mistake he made with the NGE. He will not introduce massive changes to the game. He flat out stated they tried that before, and it was a huge mistake, and specifically mentioned the NGE. Smedley was not prompted to state this. Love or hate Smedley, the man has a remarkable candor when he is allowed to speak uncensored. So allow me to give (what I feel) to be a summary of the reasons why people still have such an animus
1.) Their belief that the free market matters, and this is their way of punishing SOE.
Now granted, some people find this dirty, but this is economics 101 people. When someone is driven to a certain point by a company, they will do their part to make sure no business is given to that company. This is why many Vietnam veterans to this day refuse to buy Michelin tires, because they are French, and they believed the French made their fighting the war difficult. it is why Citgo gas is boycotted today by many others, as a form of protestant against the Venezulean regime. It is why people boycotted Coke en masse over New Coke. You get the idea. In an economy that relies upon the free transacation and trade of goods, people believe they are contributing to the educated consumer by telling them about this game, pro or con. The pro side wants people to make a wise investment in this game. The con side wants people to make an investment elsewhere where their money is better spent.
2.) SOE on numerous occasions engaged in "bait and switch" marketing tactics.
And I'm not just talking about the NGE, which most agree was a TEXTBOOK example of bait and switch. An expansion was offered promising rewards for certain professions that SOE knew would not exist a week into the expansion's life. However, they wanted to maximize their profits. However, a serious case could be made the same was done with the original CU. Needless to say, it is now established fact that the planning and implementation phase of the CU suffered a radical change of vision around the release of World of Warcraft. The original documentation of the rebalance demonstrates this, as even the documentation about the upcoming rebalance weeks before the CU launched had nothing in common with the CU. People testing these changes really couldn't say anything thanks to the NDA.
3.) They are willing to sacrifice their existing customers in pursuit of the non-existent but highly touted "silent majority."
We learned with the NGE one of the main things they did was bring in non-players of SWG and ask them what they needed to change to bring them in. This in itself is not a bad marketing tactic. However, this was done almost completely independent of dealing with the existing player community about what they wanted. It is a stated rule of business you work to satisfy your existing consumer base before looking to attract new customers. Especially when those customers number in the hundreds of thousands as they did during the CU.
4.) Contempt for what veterans viewed as fun.
Everyone remembers the SWG dev who found it unbelievable that people would find various parts of the ranger profession fun. (i.e. what is so fun about camping?) This is when one remembers one of Duncan (a poster and anti-NGE one at that)'s sig "SOE knows what you like, you don't!" The very people who were sent to address the problems the critics presented had no clue why they felt the way they did. This speaks of incompetence in the highest, and honest contempt for the playerbase they are trying to court. One also remembers their reaction towards entertainers when the NGE first came out, in essence telling them to shut up and like the NGE.
5.) The fact that after several years, this game is still either in beta, or barely past beta.
Smedley himself admitted the reason the NGE was launched public so fast was not enough people were willing to beta test it. People were then forced to pay to beta test the NGE in (at least) the first few months. SOE also had 2 major changes of the game engine within a year, and if experience dictates it, will do it again, if they believe they can ensnare some mythical audience. Basic major bugs still exist in the game. LOS and collission problems have persisted since the NGE has launched. They still exist. There is still a real problem of lack of content in some areas. In truth, these problems were unacceptable 6 months after launch Pre-CU, but there was enough going for it in other areas that people bit their tongues.
6.) Many see in the CU and NGE a disturbing trend in the progression of the MMO genre.
This could be viewed as an adaptation of Marx's view of history applied to the MMO genre. It is presented as an inevitable force of nature that sandbox games are unworkable, so MMO games must become linear WoW style to truly succeed. That the way to implement a true "WoW-killer" is to copy WoW as closely as possible, rather than applying the principles of what made WoW successful to your game, but still maintaining your own independence. (i.e. how WoW made themselves so successful. They took their existing IP, took a lot of ideas from EQ, but also demonstrated that they were their own game.) We are told this is what the MMO world demands. We disagree, and in a sense could be viewed as standing athrwart MMO history yelling STOP! The progression towards clones of games is neither inevitable nor desireable. Since the Pre-CU demonstrated that this style of game could be successful, and the Post-CUNGE era has demonstrated in stark terms that things are not as inevitable as they seem (as far from gaining customers SOE lost almost 80% of their customer base).
I avoided a lot of the gameplay elements intentionally, because I think even if these were fixed tomorrow, the other problems still persist.
Comments
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
A good read for the NGE fanbois who seem to be constantly trolling here, baiting the vets in a forum designed for us to rant, moan and curse $OE. Also a good read in general, good post.
-Currently looking forward to FFXIV
-Currently playing EvE and Global Agenda
Yes but we're pissed together at the loss of a quality game with terrible treatment dished out to us by the retards at $oe. $oe knows we wont go away ever, thousands of SWG fans will diss $oe until the end of time until they do the right thing, thats just the way it is. From smedders worming and apologies he obviously cares that we wont let this matter drop. So some people care obviously.
Why go on a forum designed for us to vent frustration and say you know we're pissed but you don't care? I can't see many people caring that you don't care.
Stay in the current players forum and discuss how you pwned a noobie with your NGE glow bat.
From what evidence are you deriving these sweeping generalizations I have to ask? Posts by people who have no idea why we are ticked off are common and I know I as a consumer would care if I were considering purchasing the game.
If you were thinking of buying a car and find out that customers who had purchased it before you were pissed off and ranting would you care?
Even if you didn't care about the specifics would you still buy it?
Corporations have a word for people like you who (apparently) still would: a sucker. They love your kind.
3.4ghz Phenom II X4 965, 8GB PC12800 DDR3 GSKILL, EVGA 560GTX 2GB OC, 640GB HD SATA II, BFG 1000WATT PSU. MSI NF980-G65 TRI-SLI MOBO.
That was written and presented clearly enough for anyone to understand, with the possible exception of Nancy MacIntyre of course.
That was simply far to much reading for her.
Good job!
/kowtow
--------------------
SWG - Killed by $OE
WOW - Retired
Playing WAR
Great post. I am sure its going to get locked. You violated this forums rules of posting.
You made sense, didn't ramble incohently, didn't advertise for one of there sponsers, and didn't post something inflamatory or trolling.
This is of no use to mmorpg.com
Thanks for this post as it was a rare (from eaither side) example of a well thought out presentation of ideas. It would be neat to see a counter-post (if one has not already been started) of the opposing view. I am still relatively on the fence myself, but it seems there are certainly enough people who support the current game to make an intelligent summary of their views.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Okay, I know I'm gonna get flamed here....
But I disagree. In the work I've done as a writer on this site, I have called credit farming and in game currency a blight upon MMO's used only by lazy people. I even called those who practiced it immoral. Yet I was allowed to say those opinions, even though a few of MMORPG.com's sponsors personally joined the debate in the forum post announcing the debate, all being incredibly hostile to me.
I wrote (what is probably to this day) one of the most critical editorials of SOE about the NGE, again with a full green light.
Granted, full disclosure I write for this site, but they aren't the Gestapo, silencing all dissent.
Well it seems the devs over at SOE care: http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/posts/list.m?topic_id=343829 Just under the comment "No expansion this year".
While it's not said who exactly said this, I believe it to be some what true.
Most of us here in this forum have an extreme love/hate relationship with SW:G, myself included. As I've said to one fanboi after the other, if Smedly can finally admit they screwed up, why can't you?
Back to the OP's orginal statement, all I can say is extremely well said.
But I understand from that OP post that its not really about the game itself, and more about having been hurt and not being able to let it go.. which is pretty human. Humans are silly and most aren't really able to grow out of such things. Some are stronger and can shrug such things off and remain neutral.
Though SoE's other products aren't so controversial, I don't particularly like any of them myself (so no, i am no soe fanboi.) In fact I can foresee getting tired of swg pretty fast too, but only because i am not much of a fan of cooperative multiplayer, which is what most mmo's are until much later when you get into the end game pvp stuff.
How many years have the vets been crying on any forum they could get to? All the beta forums of the mmo's I had watched in the past always had them anyway.
Don't like SoE? That's fine. Don't buy their products (and I include all of sony in that, not just sony online entertainment. That includes audio/video products.) But why constantly cry about it everywhere like a 5 year old who had his favorite toy taken away? (dont take that as an insult.) After all I am going on a limb to assume most of you are adults.
Anyway, even tho' I don't, and never really did, play SWG, I found the post to be eloquently crafted and rather reminiscent of what the UO vets went through when certain expansions were released that cut the game world in half, and made it completely reliant on a Diablo-esque item system.
Now I'm all depressed.
Great post!
I often think that the ongoing vet resentment of SOE and the NGE would not exist if a similar (but obviously non-Star Wars) sandbox game existed
No, second life doesnt count and while Eve may essentially be a sandbox there is practically zero RP and social elements to that game - all other games are directed experiences/grinds that almost certainly have hard coded character classes.
SWG presented a freedom in both gameplay experience and character creation/customization/direction I dont think we've seen before or since (and I'm not seeing anything on the horizon that has either - please correct me if I'm wrong)
I am a Vet that is currently playing and enjoying the game, but I will say that this is a good post, it makes sence why you and ather vets dont want to return to the game, but we all have to agree that even so its the only Star Wars game, and its still way better than lots of games out there.
I played WoW and was in LotRO beta only to return to SWG. The game is not perfect but it has its own value and it still is in my opinion a valid alternative to the hundreds of fantasy MMOs out there.
Kudos to you and the post you make, with no flames and no insults to people that simply have a different aproach to the game.
As a person that has played the Pre-Cu version of SWG,Cu version and NGE version, I can say that the depth and sandbox element in Pre-Cu makes the NGE version looks like ghost shell of what it once was.
Thats why we still angry. In the hunt for money they ruined the game and turned their back to their current playerbase. And with the sound of "flush" we were gone. As adults I think we are entitled to use our voice and say "Hey that was wrong, dont threat us like that". We invested time and money into the game, but what was it worth?
Its not about crying or toys been taken away, its about principles. I mean, people doesnt buy a game and create a large strong community just to have it destroyed. They put money and time into the game and trust the developers to make decisions that will be the best for the game and the community. Its about how far you can go as a company before you make people feel betrayed and unfair handled. Its about ethics between company and players. SoE saw the money WoW made and tried to trade their current playerbase for some of that money by revamping the game from a mature sandbox game to a fast pace shoot em up that would attract the young ones. They failed.
And when you handle things like SoE handle the CU and the NGE, you sure are pissing of a lot of people. You burn the bridges and silence the angry mob with bans and deleted posts on the forums. I think thats why so many of us still are angry, we still stand at the other side and want a answer why they flushed us down the toilet, like we were worth nothing. But its complete silence like we never existed.
Well thats all I got to say about that.
(And please lets us Vets rant on these fine specially made Vet forums, without coming in here and try to rub our noses, its getting old. I cant speak for other forums though, must be renegades.)
The Second Day Vet
As a person that has played the Pre-Cu version of SWG,Cu version and NGE version, I can say that the depth and sandbox element in Pre-Cu makes the NGE version looks like ghost shell of what it once was.
Thats why we still angry. In the hunt for money they ruined the game and turned their back to their current playerbase. And with the sound of "flush" we were gone. As adults I think we are entitled to use our voice and say "Hey that was wrong, dont threat us like that". We invested time and money into the game, but what was it worth?
Its not about crying or toys been taken away, its about principles. I mean, people doesnt buy a game and create a large strong community just to have it destroyed. They put money and time into the game and trust the developers to make decisions that will be the best for the game and the community. Its about how far you can go as a company before you make people feel betrayed and unfair handled. Its about ethics between company and players. SoE saw the money WoW made and tried to trade their current playerbase for some of that money by revamping the game from a mature sandbox game to a fast pace shoot em up that would attract the young ones. They failed.
And when you handle things like SoE handle the CU and the NGE, you sure are pissing of a lot of people. You burn the bridges and silence the angry mob with bans and deleted posts on the forums. I think thats why so many of us still are angry, we still stand at the other side and want a answer why they flushed us down the toilet, like we were worth nothing. But its complete silence like we never existed.
Well thats all I got to say about that.
(And please lets us Vets rant on these fine specially made Vet forums, without coming in here and try to rub our noses, its getting old. I cant speak for other forums though, must be renegades.)
The Second Day Vet
First off, get off your high horse there. I actually agree with randomt on this. After trying out the NGE, I find that it is quite a bit more sand-boxy than a lot of other mmorpgs. This is espeically true with the CH/BE being reintroduced. He never said anything stating that, "it was better, or more sand-boxy than Pre-CU." Therefore, your flame against him on this subject was not warranted. As I said, I agree with randomt on the NGE being more sand-box than a lot of other mmorpgs. However, I also agree with the OP on a lot of stuff as well.
Second, this is the vets forum. Which means that all vets have the right to post here, regardless of if they are pro-NGE or con-NGE. I see a lot of posts from the con-NGE vets that keep saying that, "this forum is only for vets that hate NGE." I'm sick of this elitest attitude. This forum is for any vet that wishes to voice their opinion, and they have a right too. And, not every vet shares your hatred, justified or not, of SOE. So, either accept that, or get out. Plain and simple.
As a person that has played the Pre-Cu version of SWG,Cu version and NGE version, I can say that the depth and sandbox element in Pre-Cu makes the NGE version looks like ghost shell of what it once was.
Thats why we still angry. In the hunt for money they ruined the game and turned their back to their current playerbase. And with the sound of "flush" we were gone. As adults I think we are entitled to use our voice and say "Hey that was wrong, dont threat us like that". We invested time and money into the game, but what was it worth?
Its not about crying or toys been taken away, its about principles. I mean, people doesnt buy a game and create a large strong community just to have it destroyed. They put money and time into the game and trust the developers to make decisions that will be the best for the game and the community. Its about how far you can go as a company before you make people feel betrayed and unfair handled. Its about ethics between company and players. SoE saw the money WoW made and tried to trade their current playerbase for some of that money by revamping the game from a mature sandbox game to a fast pace shoot em up that would attract the young ones. They failed.
And when you handle things like SoE handle the CU and the NGE, you sure are pissing of a lot of people. You burn the bridges and silence the angry mob with bans and deleted posts on the forums. I think thats why so many of us still are angry, we still stand at the other side and want a answer why they flushed us down the toilet, like we were worth nothing. But its complete silence like we never existed.
Well thats all I got to say about that.
(And please lets us Vets rant on these fine specially made Vet forums, without coming in here and try to rub our noses, its getting old. I cant speak for other forums though, must be renegades.)
The Second Day Vet
First off, get off your high horse there. I actually agree with randomt on this. After trying out the NGE, I find that it is quite a bit more sand-boxy than a lot of other mmorpgs. This is espeically true with the CH/BE being reintroduced. He never said anything stating that, "it was better, or more sand-boxy than Pre-CU." Therefore, your flame against him on this subject was not warranted. As I said, I agree with randomt on the NGE being more sand-box than a lot of other mmorpgs. However, I also agree with the OP on a lot of stuff as well.
Second, this is the vets forum. Which means that all vets have the right to post here, regardless of if they are pro-NGE or con-NGE. I see a lot of posts from the con-NGE vets that keep saying that, "this forum is only for vets that hate NGE." I'm sick of this elitest attitude. This forum is for any vet that wishes to voice their opinion, and they have a right too. And, not every vet shares your hatred, justified or not, of SOE. So, either accept that, or get out. Plain and simple.
You dont need to share the hatred but you hopefully at least understand it. And if thats the case, then how can you support SOE in any possible way ?
Take a look at my post here titled a list of falsehoods by SOE. Perhaps then you'll start to understand at all why us vets feel the way we do about SOE.
And dont take this personally but you shouldnt be wasting your time and money with SOE on SWG. The point of any MMO is continuance which allows one to build and improve upon a character. With SOE however, the cardinal rule of MMO's (never change the core essence of a MMO) is broken quite a bit.
Vets tend to get angry because they realize that the few remaining players who support SWG are doing two primarily BAD things...
1. your sending the message to SOE that its okay to lie, steal and treat its playing community so horribly bad. Why should SOE ever change their ways if there will always be some sucker to replace us ?
2. your standing in the way of SWG2. There will likely never be a sequel or another Star Wars licensed MMO launched until SWG dies. If the remaining few thousand players would quit, we'd be that much closer to a possible replacement game, something hopefully designed by someone other than SOE.
Dont get me wrong, I agree with you that SWG is the only decent sandbox mmo out there. But compared to what it once was, its garbage now. And even if SOE fixed the whole game and brought back th 24 classes they removed it would still be morally wrong for us to play it. SOE's behavior for the last 3 years can never justify me or most vets from ever returning to the game...at least until Smedley is fired, classic servers come back, and an apology happens.
First off, get off your high horse there. I actually agree with randomt on this. After trying out the NGE, I find that it is quite a bit more sand-boxy than a lot of other mmorpgs. This is espeically true with the CH/BE being reintroduced. He never said anything stating that, "it was better, or more sand-boxy than Pre-CU." Therefore, your flame against him on this subject was not warranted. As I said, I agree with randomt on the NGE being more sand-box than a lot of other mmorpgs. However, I also agree with the OP on a lot of stuff as well.
Second, this is the vets forum. Which means that all vets have the right to post here, regardless of if they are pro-NGE or con-NGE. I see a lot of posts from the con-NGE vets that keep saying that, "this forum is only for vets that hate NGE." I'm sick of this elitest attitude. This forum is for any vet that wishes to voice their opinion, and they have a right too. And, not every vet shares your hatred, justified or not, of SOE. So, either accept that, or get out. Plain and simple. No, I dont agree with Randomt, just like you agree with him. If you think that puts me on "high horses" so be it.
He asked:
"Don't like SOE? That's fine." "But why constantly cry about it everywhere like a 5 year old who had his favorite toy taken away?"
And I answerd with my post, as simple is that.
Flame...huh? You said it. But I cant see it. In no way is my post a flame against Randomt. I disagree with Randomt in the post...but dont flame him.
I has not written that pro-nge arent welcome in this forum in my post, all I said was that if he gonna go with the "stop crying,stop whine,favorit toy taken away" style in the post he can take a hike, we are all grown ups, no need for baby talk here. Thats what I meant with rub our noses, like we were kids.
Questions?
The Second Day Vet
-- xpaladin
[MMOz]
AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW