I very much enjoyed the original post in this thread...good read. And the last post, I THINK, said something I'm hoping some future MMO will realize: that complex, open-ended "sandbox" MMOs CAN work, CAN garner a good-sized, profitable market with longevity. That's what made SWG for me. Yes, I saw the original first run of A New Hope when I was young. Yes, the first 3 (or last 3?...the earlier ones) were films that I still watch with joy. But I was and always am a Trekkie. I played SWG fervently because it was a good GAME. It had a great community, highly complex crafting and departed totally from the loot-drop-gear model. Pre-CU (and, really, even up until NGE) the best gear WAS player made. And your crafter needed some really long-term dedication to be able to produce the best gear. Also needed help from other profs, so there was interdependency from crafters. Guilds would make sure they had all the crafts covered so they could be sure of producing everything for their members. If they'd looked at balancing the combat profs similarly, I think they could have implemented their PvP/RvR type stuf a lot better. The combat profs really weren't interdependent for the most part. Only when you hit something diabolical like the DWB did you need to think about what your team (or teams!) had going for them. And the absolute necessity of having an entertainer on call for things like that was a great use of a "social" prof. Pre-CU entertainers were even MORE necessary with the old Mind Healing.
There were so many things that old SWG had that made it unique to the industry that, even to this day, most of us vets can live with the bugs. It really didn't crash for me so I don't have much to say about the mechanical end of things. And it was really only laggy in Spamonet and Greed, so I didn't have that problem either. Yes, I'd have loved it if my commando had more than one weapon. I used them all (because I also had a WS in among my 5 accounts), but the flamer was the only weapon in a serious fight. Yes, it made me mad that a guy with fists could destroy a guy with a gun every time. Yes, it would've been great if they'd actually DONE something with all those different armour resists, rather than just 2 and the others weren't implemented. Yes, I'd have loved a DAoC RvR type game within the game. But SWG was just so much fun that most of the stuf could be worked around or plain didn't matter.
What's really weird to me is that another open-ended, complex-crafting, non-loot-gear-model, sandbox-style MMO ALSO has been plagued by corporate mismanagement: Horizons. While nowhere near the number of players as SWG, it too had many of the things that made SWG great, including a great community. Of course, its corporate mismanagement began long before its initial launch, instead of after it had already gotten a good following.
SOE doesn't get another Xixbuck for the rest of my life. Sony itself gets as little as possible now, in fact. (Just passed on some Sony headphones for JVC last week.) If SOE opened pre-CU servers or did an SWG2, I'd still stay away. If SOE took over a Star Trek MMO and...oh wait...they did. Oh well.
Tabla Rassa it is. Save us, Lord British!
-- Xix "I know what you're thinking: 'Why, oh WHY, didn't I take the BLUE pill?'"
People know why you are pissed. The thing is....They just don't care.
Wrong on both counts thank you please try again.
From what evidence are you deriving these sweeping generalizations I have to ask? Posts by people who have no idea why we are ticked off are common and I know I as a consumer would care if I were considering purchasing the game.
If you were thinking of buying a car and find out that customers who had purchased it before you were pissed off and ranting would you care?
Even if you didn't care about the specifics would you still buy it?
Corporations have a word for people like you who (apparently) still would: a sucker. They love your kind.
I agree, but i have a different word for him: tool.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
I finally gave this game a shot the other day.. and ya know.. even if its been dumbed down from what it was originally.. its still much more sandboxy than most mmo's out there, and has more depth than most. I know a lot of vets play ryzom.. but i have to say, the swg in its current state has more depth/content than that...
But I understand from that OP post that its not really about the game itself, and more about having been hurt and not being able to let it go.. which is pretty human. Humans are silly and most aren't really able to grow out of such things. Some are stronger and can shrug such things off and remain neutral.
Though SoE's other products aren't so controversial, I don't particularly like any of them myself (so no, i am no soe fanboi.) In fact I can foresee getting tired of swg pretty fast too, but only because i am not much of a fan of cooperative multiplayer, which is what most mmo's are until much later when you get into the end game pvp stuff.
How many years have the vets been crying on any forum they could get to? All the beta forums of the mmo's I had watched in the past always had them anyway.
Don't like SoE? That's fine. Don't buy their products (and I include all of sony in that, not just sony online entertainment. That includes audio/video products.) But why constantly cry about it everywhere like a 5 year old who had his favorite toy taken away? (dont take that as an insult.) After all I am going on a limb to assume most of you are adults.
You never played the game before, gave the game a shot the other day and now you in here telling us Vets what a deep and content rich game NGE is.
As a person that has played the Pre-Cu version of SWG,Cu version and NGE version, I can say that the depth and sandbox element in Pre-Cu makes the NGE version looks like ghost shell of what it once was.
Thats why we still angry. In the hunt for money they ruined the game and turned their back to their current playerbase. And with the sound of "flush" we were gone. As adults I think we are entitled to use our voice and say "Hey that was wrong, dont threat us like that". We invested time and money into the game, but what was it worth?
Its not about crying or toys been taken away, its about principles. I mean, people doesnt buy a game and create a large strong community just to have it destroyed. They put money and time into the game and trust the developers to make decisions that will be the best for the game and the community. Its about how far you can go as a company before you make people feel betrayed and unfair handled. Its about ethics between company and players. SoE saw the money WoW made and tried to trade their current playerbase for some of that money by revamping the game from a mature sandbox game to a fast pace shoot em up that would attract the young ones. They failed.
And when you handle things like SoE handle the CU and the NGE, you sure are pissing of a lot of people. You burn the bridges and silence the angry mob with bans and deleted posts on the forums. I think thats why so many of us still are angry, we still stand at the other side and want a answer why they flushed us down the toilet, like we were worth nothing. But its complete silence like we never existed.
Well thats all I got to say about that.
(And please lets us Vets rant on these fine specially made Vet forums, without coming in here and try to rub our noses, its getting old. I cant speak for other forums though, must be renegades.)
The Second Day Vet
First off, get off your high horse there. I actually agree with randomt on this. After trying out the NGE, I find that it is quite a bit more sand-boxy than a lot of other mmorpgs. This is espeically true with the CH/BE being reintroduced. He never said anything stating that, "it was better, or more sand-boxy than Pre-CU." Therefore, your flame against him on this subject was not warranted. As I said, I agree with randomt on the NGE being more sand-box than a lot of other mmorpgs. However, I also agree with the OP on a lot of stuff as well.
Second, this is the vets forum. Which means that all vets have the right to post here, regardless of if they are pro-NGE or con-NGE. I see a lot of posts from the con-NGE vets that keep saying that, "this forum is only for vets that hate NGE." I'm sick of this elitest attitude. This forum is for any vet that wishes to voice their opinion, and they have a right too. And, not every vet shares your hatred, justified or not, of SOE. So, either accept that, or get out. Plain and simple.
First off, he isnt on a high horse, secondly he is expressing his opnion and has a right to do so. You also have your right to express your opnion but i also have a right to disagree with you vortex. You want to praise SOE and like their games, good luck with you and i hope for your sake that SOE doesnt stab you in the back like they did to us VETs.
If all you nge'ers want to turn your back against your fellow gamers and praise SOE for its work, then you my friends will get what they call a rude awakening. It has nothing to do with the game anymore, its about respect and $OE doesnt respect its customers in any way, shape or form. I hope you know that $OE is laughing at you NGE'ers, your the type of people they love and want and thats what we all know are known as suckers.
So like im sure most of you have all heard this before but before you attack someone on what one says towards and about $OE, ask yourself how you would feel if you were in the VETS shoes, ask yourself would you be singing the same tune now if you yourself was screwed over by a company? Please, ask yourself that and see how you would like it.
No, I dont agree with Randomt, just like you agree with him. If you think that puts me on "high horses" so be it.
He asked:
"Don't like SOE? That's fine." "But why constantly cry about it everywhere like a 5 year old who had his favorite toy taken away?"
And I answerd with my post, as simple is that.
Flame...huh? You said it. But I cant see it. In no way is my post a flame against Randomt. I disagree with Randomt in the post...but dont flame him.
I has not written that pro-nge arent welcome in this forum in my post, all I said was that if he gonna go with the "stop crying,stop whine,favorit toy taken away" style in the post he can take a hike, we are all grown ups, no need for baby talk here. Thats what I meant with rub our noses, like we were kids.
Questions?
The Second Day Vet
Your original post made you sound very pompous. I appologize on that aspect... it's sometimes hard to determine personality from script. Again, I apologize.
But, I have seen a lot of con-NGE vets who have been taking such attitude, as in "only con-NGE vets allowed in here", and I'm kind of ticked off about it.
You do know what refuge is right? Usually comes with refugees... go look it up. Besides its a common agreement/knowledge/common sense (whatever you wish to see it as) that these part of the forums are for people mad about the massive changes.
1. The problem is, every company is going to lie, cheat, steal, etc... I have seen it with Mythic, EA, SOE, and many non videogame makers. If you think otherwise, then you are niave. However, SOE has to tred lightly... they know that the last time they did something drastically, they suffered BIG time. Anyways, I do not place all the blame on SOE for the NGE debacle... a lot of it goes to LA. I personally liked some of Pre-CU, but I thought the combat portion was broken. NGE's combat has flaws, but I view it to be more balanced than Pre-CU's combat system. Specifically removing the HAM system that made 2H Swordsmen, Riflemen, and anyone who had a mind DoT king due to normally unhealable mind.
2. I highly doubt there will ever be a sequel to SWG, even if people totally stopped playing NGE. And, if there was, I highly doubt that anything would change from the original... especially when LA is basically pulling the strings on the franchise to manipulate the developers.
Personally, I believe SWG is going in the right direction atm. It's not perfect... in some aspects it's not as good as Pre-CU, but it's nowhere near as horrid as some individuals make it out to be. And, the only way Smed gets fired, or openly apologizes, is if the board of directors deems it necessary... and I believe that they probably had more to do with the NGE (potential profits) rather than Smed. Not to say that Smed wasn't a part of this (he was), but he doesn't merit all the blame for the NGE debacle at the beginning.
I'm not here to convert anyone... I'm just replying with my beliefs on the question I was asked.
Point 1A: Ok so when is the limit? Do you dismiss lying until you are blindly believing them? No ,not every company lies... theres a lot out there with enough sense not to promise stuff then break it, over and over. Logitech, Bose, Square Enix, i could go on.
1B: Tread lightly? Have you been following some of their other games? This isn't the only game they have incorporated sweeping changes. Its what they do. They can "oh we will never let it happen again" all they want. Their track record states otherwise.
1C: What? LA had a smaller hand in it. SoE's game track record vs LA's game track record should prove that enough. I would go into a whole comparison report but as it stands, looking at the clock, I don't have the time.
1D: In my opinion the NGE isn't fun. I tried it again just to see if i changed any from the day it was introduced to us. A bit. But the "new class" based system has lost its sandbox feel. And even more so with the "kill this many of this" quests. Nuff said on that.
Point 2: Maybe, but it wouldn't be hard for LA to give SW MMO rights to anyone else they deemed worthy.
Point 3A: You meant to make a point 3 right? NGE is not going the right way, its still trying to copy wow, and stuff is getting added desperately now, such as the funny restablishment of the CH system. I thought SoE declared the CH stuff un-starwarsy? Hmmm... Honestly? They just need to roll it back to pre-cu where the subs were high and the downhill crap started.
3B: Nah he just needs to be fired.... sorry, but he just does....
Just my two cents.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
First off, he isnt on a high horse, secondly he is expressing his opnion and has a right to do so. You also have your right to express your opnion but i also have a right to disagree with you vortex. You want to praise SOE and like their games, good luck with you and i hope for your sake that SOE doesnt stab you in the back like they did to us VETs.
If all you nge'ers want to turn your back against your fellow gamers and praise SOE for its work, then you my friends will get what they call a rude awakening. It has nothing to do with the game anymore, its about respect and $OE doesnt respect its customers in any way, shape or form. I hope you know that $OE is laughing at you NGE'ers, your the type of people they love and want and thats what we all know are known as suckers.
So like im sure most of you have all heard this before but before you attack someone on what one says towards and about $OE, ask yourself how you would feel if you were in the VETS shoes, ask yourself would you be singing the same tune now if you yourself was screwed over by a company? Please, ask yourself that and see how you would like it.
OMG!!! Can you grasp at any more straws than this? I'm "turning my back on" my "fellow gamers" just because I happen to enjoy a game? Riiiight... I knew the NGE hating vets were cynical, hate-filled, and irrational, but I never knew that you all could stoop to this level. I don't even know how to respond to this utter nonsense, because that's what it is... irrational, hate-filled nonsense.
First off, he isnt on a high horse, secondly he is expressing his opnion and has a right to do so. You also have your right to express your opnion but i also have a right to disagree with you vortex. You want to praise SOE and like their games, good luck with you and i hope for your sake that SOE doesnt stab you in the back like they did to us VETs.
If all you nge'ers want to turn your back against your fellow gamers and praise SOE for its work, then you my friends will get what they call a rude awakening. It has nothing to do with the game anymore, its about respect and $OE doesnt respect its customers in any way, shape or form. I hope you know that $OE is laughing at you NGE'ers, your the type of people they love and want and thats what we all know are known as suckers.
So like im sure most of you have all heard this before but before you attack someone on what one says towards and about $OE, ask yourself how you would feel if you were in the VETS shoes, ask yourself would you be singing the same tune now if you yourself was screwed over by a company? Please, ask yourself that and see how you would like it.
OMG!!! Can you grasp at any more straws than this? I'm "turning my back on" my "fellow gamers" just because I happen to enjoy a game? Riiiight... I knew the NGE hating vets were cynical, hate-filled, and irrational, but I never knew that you all could stoop to this level. I don't even know how to respond to this utter nonsense, because that's what it is... irrational, hate-filled nonsense.
Nobody cares what you like or dislike, you were the one who chose to come here and incite flames and call people names. Whenever you do that, people will react negatively to you.
That was written and presented clearly enough for anyone to understand, with the possible exception of Nancy MacIntyre of course. That was simply far to much reading for her. Good job!
And to think, that the woman who's dubbed Nancy "Readin is bad m'kay?" McIntyre now is a high paidmember of a company that produce educational stuff.
But anyway, yes a good list.
Altho, personally, one of the "major" things for me, well, except gameplay things like destroying my character, destroying my playstyle, removing my fun and more... Is that they used the excuse of "more Star Warsy" to defend the NGE when they infact turned the game into some meltingpot of Star Wars textures with NO connections whatsoever to Star Wars history, background, lore and continuity.
Basicly they took a Star Wars game, and removed ALL Star Wars, and then said they made it Star Warsy.... *sigh*
Yes I remember this when I played the lil intro part of the free trial. Once Solo told you to side with either the Empire or the Rebellion, wherever you made the most credits, I recognized this was not Star Warsy at all.
First off, he isnt on a high horse, secondly he is expressing his opnion and has a right to do so. You also have your right to express your opnion but i also have a right to disagree with you vortex. You want to praise SOE and like their games, good luck with you and i hope for your sake that SOE doesnt stab you in the back like they did to us VETs.
If all you nge'ers want to turn your back against your fellow gamers and praise SOE for its work, then you my friends will get what they call a rude awakening. It has nothing to do with the game anymore, its about respect and $OE doesnt respect its customers in any way, shape or form. I hope you know that $OE is laughing at you NGE'ers, your the type of people they love and want and thats what we all know are known as suckers.
So like im sure most of you have all heard this before but before you attack someone on what one says towards and about $OE, ask yourself how you would feel if you were in the VETS shoes, ask yourself would you be singing the same tune now if you yourself was screwed over by a company? Please, ask yourself that and see how you would like it.
OMG!!! Can you grasp at any more straws than this? I'm "turning my back on" my "fellow gamers" just because I happen to enjoy a game? Riiiight... I knew the NGE hating vets were cynical, hate-filled, and irrational, but I never knew that you all could stoop to this level. I don't even know how to respond to this utter nonsense, because that's what it is... irrational, hate-filled nonsense.
Oh i'm sure the hate is completely rational. If someone screwed you over i'm damn sure you'd say something about it. If you didn't it would open up more avenues for you to get suckered by other people or even the same company over and over. Theres got to a be a point where people make a unified stand (or at least majority) and say "hey.. this is wrong and you need to change it"
Personally if they ever fully reverted back to the pre-cu style that many are hoping (from what I read) Id go back their in a heartbeat. Because to me that would be that they have seen what they have done, admitted it (which they already have done but no action), and changed it back. Until then I and many others will continue our struggle against a company that has did wrong to its paying customers.. At least until SOMEONE brings back pre-cu.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
First off, he isnt on a high horse, secondly he is expressing his opnion and has a right to do so. You also have your right to express your opnion but i also have a right to disagree with you vortex. You want to praise SOE and like their games, good luck with you and i hope for your sake that SOE doesnt stab you in the back like they did to us VETs.
If all you nge'ers want to turn your back against your fellow gamers and praise SOE for its work, then you my friends will get what they call a rude awakening. It has nothing to do with the game anymore, its about respect and $OE doesnt respect its customers in any way, shape or form. I hope you know that $OE is laughing at you NGE'ers, your the type of people they love and want and thats what we all know are known as suckers.
So like im sure most of you have all heard this before but before you attack someone on what one says towards and about $OE, ask yourself how you would feel if you were in the VETS shoes, ask yourself would you be singing the same tune now if you yourself was screwed over by a company? Please, ask yourself that and see how you would like it.
OMG!!! Can you grasp at any more straws than this? I'm "turning my back on" my "fellow gamers" just because I happen to enjoy a game? Riiiight... I knew the NGE hating vets were cynical, hate-filled, and irrational, but I never knew that you all could stoop to this level. I don't even know how to respond to this utter nonsense, because that's what it is... irrational, hate-filled nonsense.
Nobody cares what you like or dislike, you were the one who chose to come here and incite flames and call people names. Whenever you do that, people will react negatively to you. I highly disagree. The vets, to which this forum was specifically designed for (aka haters), have already a preconceived hatred for anyone that likes SOE or NGE. Therefore, regardless of if I make the most thought out, logical argument, these vets will automatically disagree with it and dislike me because I happen to like the NGE. You all need to open up your eyes, and get over it. If you hate SOE so much due to them screwing you over, then be prepared for other companies to do the same. Every company is out for the almighty bottom dollar (net income for anyone who's skilled in business). Therefore, companies will screw you over every chance they think they can make more money. SOE's example is a bit extreme, but I've seen Mythic, EA, Blizzard, and CCP (EvE Online) screw over their customers at one time or another.
First off, he isnt on a high horse, secondly he is expressing his opnion and has a right to do so. You also have your right to express your opnion but i also have a right to disagree with you vortex. You want to praise SOE and like their games, good luck with you and i hope for your sake that SOE doesnt stab you in the back like they did to us VETs.
If all you nge'ers want to turn your back against your fellow gamers and praise SOE for its work, then you my friends will get what they call a rude awakening. It has nothing to do with the game anymore, its about respect and $OE doesnt respect its customers in any way, shape or form. I hope you know that $OE is laughing at you NGE'ers, your the type of people they love and want and thats what we all know are known as suckers.
So like im sure most of you have all heard this before but before you attack someone on what one says towards and about $OE, ask yourself how you would feel if you were in the VETS shoes, ask yourself would you be singing the same tune now if you yourself was screwed over by a company? Please, ask yourself that and see how you would like it.
OMG!!! Can you grasp at any more straws than this? I'm "turning my back on" my "fellow gamers" just because I happen to enjoy a game? Riiiight... I knew the NGE hating vets were cynical, hate-filled, and irrational, but I never knew that you all could stoop to this level. I don't even know how to respond to this utter nonsense, because that's what it is... irrational, hate-filled nonsense.
Nobody cares what you like or dislike, you were the one who chose to come here and incite flames and call people names. Whenever you do that, people will react negatively to you.I highly disagree. The vets, to which this forum was specifically designed for (aka haters), have already a preconceived hatred for anyone that likes SOE or NGE. Therefore, regardless of if I make the most thought out, logical argument, these vets will automatically disagree with it and dislike me because I happen to like the NGE. You all need to open up your eyes, and get over it. If you hate SOE so much due to them screwing you over, then be prepared for other companies to do the same. Every company is out for the almighty bottom dollar (net income for anyone who's skilled in business). Therefore, companies will screw you over every chance they think they can make more money. SOE's example is a bit extreme, but I've seen Mythic, EA, Blizzard, and CCP (EvE Online) screw over their customers at one time or another.
Perhaps the reason you feel people dislike you is because you're being rude to those who disagree with you. Using terms like "open your eyes" and "get over it" are very demeaning and insulting.
I personally DO NOT dislike anyone who likes SoE. I just don't appreciate what SoE has done to MANY of it's customers.
You dont have to screw over customers to reach that 'almighty bottom dollar'.
Customer centril companies often are the most profitable.
SOE did screw over customers and in turn ripped off the hand that fed them. They didnt listen and totally emboddied the typical SOE business culture of 'we design the games, then get players to play them' not gamer centric of 'we build a game that gamers want they will want to play'.
Its simply the fact that SOE believe they know best, when if they took time out to actually read the forums of what people wanted, they would be in a far greater state than they are now. Their priorities should of been (considering they would of launched this beta product early anyway):
Fix Bugs
Fix professions based on weakest, most unfinished first (revamping and issue fixing)
Worked on Balance (buffs, armour values/variety etc)
Provide an engaging and interactive GCW experience (battle grounds, enlistment content etc)
Implement a limited jedi system (like 6 people a month get to be jedi chosen at random)
Release space expansion
Release planets expansion (gcw battleground planets such as hoth etc and some more adventure planets)
Instead it was:
Fix loggin and accounting issues
Start working on jedi system (that by the way they said was already active at launch!!!!)
Couple of unbalanced and half assed revamps
Release Jump to Light Speed
Release a single planet totally against the successful SWG sandbox design (ROTW)
Start working on the Jedi Revamp
Have a complete rework of the combat system (CURB)
Implement the Village
Work on Jedi balancing
Work on new planets to tie in with the movie again against the successful SWG sandbox model (Mustafar)
Implement NGE
How many times did you look back over previous development updates that showed what they have planed and see how many of those things simply did not get done? Ranger was supposed to be the FIRST! profession to get revamped as per the developers promises but that still never got done before it was deleted.
All vets will still hang around the SWG forums at some point or another because it was a game that in principal we all loved. It had more potential than any mmo has been and any that are currently in developments. But bad management, poor company culture and a distinct lack of care for the customer base resulted in a shell of a game that i firmly believe (if implemented correctly and managed well) would of given WoW a very good run for its money.
Its not that its a bad idea, its that the people at the reins at SOE simply did not design a game for gamers, they made it for themselves. Although gamers they may be, the amount of people SWG brought into the mmo market changed the target market. They should of seen this as it a gamer this was completely obvious.
You could write a book on poor managed soley revolving around SOE. Mistake after mistake, on a development front and a corporate one.
First off, he isnt on a high horse, secondly he is expressing his opnion and has a right to do so. You also have your right to express your opnion but i also have a right to disagree with you vortex. You want to praise SOE and like their games, good luck with you and i hope for your sake that SOE doesnt stab you in the back like they did to us VETs.
If all you nge'ers want to turn your back against your fellow gamers and praise SOE for its work, then you my friends will get what they call a rude awakening. It has nothing to do with the game anymore, its about respect and $OE doesnt respect its customers in any way, shape or form. I hope you know that $OE is laughing at you NGE'ers, your the type of people they love and want and thats what we all know are known as suckers.
So like im sure most of you have all heard this before but before you attack someone on what one says towards and about $OE, ask yourself how you would feel if you were in the VETS shoes, ask yourself would you be singing the same tune now if you yourself was screwed over by a company? Please, ask yourself that and see how you would like it.
OMG!!! Can you grasp at any more straws than this? I'm "turning my back on" my "fellow gamers" just because I happen to enjoy a game? Riiiight... I knew the NGE hating vets were cynical, hate-filled, and irrational, but I never knew that you all could stoop to this level. I don't even know how to respond to this utter nonsense, because that's what it is... irrational, hate-filled nonsense.
Oh i'm sure the hate is completely rational. If someone screwed you over i'm damn sure you'd say something about it. If you didn't it would open up more avenues for you to get suckered by other people or even the same company over and over. Theres got to a be a point where people make a unified stand (or at least majority) and say "hey.. this is wrong and you need to change it"
Personally if they ever fully reverted back to the pre-cu style that many are hoping (from what I read) Id go back their in a heartbeat. Because to me that would be that they have seen what they have done, admitted it (which they already have done but no action), and changed it back. Until then I and many others will continue our struggle against a company that has did wrong to its paying customers.. At least until SOMEONE brings back pre-cu. Now, this is funny. The vets, to which this forum was specifically designed for, claims to hate SOE soooo much, yet a lot of such vets claim that they would return to SWG if they reverted back to Pre-CU. So, you'd go back to the company that has soooo unjustly screwed you with NGE if they reverted back to Pre-CU. Talk about maintaining your convictions there . And, before any of such vets can argue that "reverting back to CU = an apology", that's just false. SOE would just be seeking the almighty bottom dollar again, as other companies do. There would be no apology... just more corporate greed. Thus, if they switched back to Pre-CU, they would alienate any individual who is playing NGE that likes it... thus screwing over those players in the process. Thus, the same thing occurs. And, before you argue that "The would be doing those NGE players a favor by switching back to Pre-CU," that would be an opinion that could easily be countered by their opinion. Therefore it's just a grain of salt, so to speak.
Anyways, this whole talk of reverting back to Pre-CU is nonsense. If SOE is searching for the almighty bottom dollar, then why haven't they changed back to Pre-CU? Yes, NGE does have less players than Pre-CU, so it's only logical for them to switch back. The only two logical reasons I can think that they would not switch back is:
They did not retain a back-up copy of the Pre-CU code. This could be especially true for the server-wide code. The game code is easily replaced by any individual who has a Pre-CU CD. However, any patches or server-wide code would be improbable to duplicate without a previous backup.
Lucas Arts is preventing them from reverting back to Pre-CU due to it being not "Star Warsy" enough. Seeing as how LA has the overally liscense rights to anything relating to Star Wars, it is highly improbable that they would not voice their opinion on whatever product bears Star Wars. Therefore, if they disliked something that falls within this liscense, then they would request changes or retract their liscense agreement with the game developers. I'm speaking in purely hypotheticals, but it is extremely logical that this is a valid possibility.
You dont have to screw over customers to reach that 'almighty bottom dollar'. Customer centril companies often are the most profitable. SOE did screw over customers and in turn ripped off the hand that fed them. They didnt listen and totally emboddied the typical SOE business culture of 'we design the games, then get players to play them' not gamer centric of 'we build a game that gamers want they will want to play'. Its simply the fact that SOE believe they know best, when if they took time out to actually read the forums of what people wanted, they would be in a far greater state than they are now. Their priorities should of been (considering they would of launched this beta product early anyway):
Fix Bugs Fix professions based on weakest, most unfinished first (revamping and issue fixing) Worked on Balance (buffs, armour values/variety etc) Provide an engaging and interactive GCW experience (battle grounds, enlistment content etc) Implement a limited jedi system (like 6 people a month get to be jedi chosen at random) Release space expansion Release planets expansion (gcw battleground planets such as hoth etc and some more adventure planets)
Instead it was:
Fix loggin and accounting issues Start working on jedi system (that by the way they said was already active at launch!!!!) Couple of unbalanced and half assed revamps Release Jump to Light Speed Release a single planet totally against the successful SWG sandbox design (ROTW) Start working on the Jedi Revamp Have a complete rework of the combat system (CURB) Implement the Village Work on Jedi balancing Work on new planets to tie in with the movie again against the successful SWG sandbox model (Mustafar) Implement NGE
How many times did you look back over previous development updates that showed what they have planed and see how many of those things simply did not get done? Ranger was supposed to be the FIRST! profession to get revamped as per the developers promises but that still never got done before it was deleted. All vets will still hang around the SWG forums at some point or another because it was a game that in principal we all loved. It had more potential than any mmo has been and any that are currently in developments. But bad management, poor company culture and a distinct lack of care for the customer base resulted in a shell of a game that i firmly believe (if implemented correctly and managed well) would of given WoW a very good run for its money. Its not that its a bad idea, its that the people at the reins at SOE simply did not design a game for gamers, they made it for themselves. Although gamers they may be, the amount of people SWG brought into the mmo market changed the target market. They should of seen this as it a gamer this was completely obvious. You could write a book on poor managed soley revolving around SOE. Mistake after mistake, on a development front and a corporate one.
Other gaming companies do similar things to what you listed. Let's look at what Mythic did to DAoC for example.
Push out expansions before they actually fix the bugs to the original game or previous expansion. Heck, there were still bugs from the original launch that weren't even fixed after Darkness Rising expansion.
Put out expansions or patch things that are totally against what the players want. Trials of Atlantis is a great example of this. Turns the game into being mainly PvP (Realm vs. Realm (RvR) in DAoC) endgame, towards PvE endgame grindfest. To make matters worse, the items and special levels (master levels, to which you have to grind through as well) in this expansion has a huge impact on RvR.
Revamp the game in an attempt to "fix it" but that's against what the player-base really wants. The New Frontier revamp of the RvR battlefields is a prime example of this. They rearranged the whole battlezone landscape (battlegrounds and the realm keeps), and made them instanced. Majority of the player-base liked having fast-paced RvR battles, and know exactly where everyone was at (Hib lands anyone?). However, with NF revamp, those lands were extremely rearranged from what the vets knew, and at least doubled in size. Therefore, there were no high areas of RvR anymore, as players were spread all over the maps. This ruined RvR for many. This is somewhat equivalent to NGE.
Revampe the main game with new systems. Mythci did this to DAoC with the instanced exp grinding areas in Catacombs expansion. There were already instanced zones in DAoC (dungeons and the NF lands), but the main exp areas were all open areas. This made those lands become barren as players quickly rushed to the new instanced exp areas, as they could gain exp at a much higher rate. Which changed the core game... thus similar to NGE.
So, these things are not unique to just SOE. About the only thing Mythic hasn't done that SOE has, is bait and switch. However, Mythic has done their fair share of promising fixes to bugs in current expansions, but only after the next expansion, then never actually fixing the bugs they promised. And, I could go on and on about other gaming companies. About the only gaming company that doesn't truly fit in here is CCP. ( I have limited experience with them) So, before you think that only NGE does these things, I have brought you proof that other companies will do exactly the same.
You dont have to screw over customers to reach that 'almighty bottom dollar'. Customer centril companies often are the most profitable. SOE did screw over customers and in turn ripped off the hand that fed them. They didnt listen and totally emboddied the typical SOE business culture of 'we design the games, then get players to play them' not gamer centric of 'we build a game that gamers want they will want to play'. Its simply the fact that SOE believe they know best, when if they took time out to actually read the forums of what people wanted, they would be in a far greater state than they are now. Their priorities should of been (considering they would of launched this beta product early anyway):
Fix Bugs Fix professions based on weakest, most unfinished first (revamping and issue fixing) Worked on Balance (buffs, armour values/variety etc) Provide an engaging and interactive GCW experience (battle grounds, enlistment content etc) Implement a limited jedi system (like 6 people a month get to be jedi chosen at random) Release space expansion Release planets expansion (gcw battleground planets such as hoth etc and some more adventure planets)
Instead it was:
Fix loggin and accounting issues Start working on jedi system (that by the way they said was already active at launch!!!!) Couple of unbalanced and half assed revamps Release Jump to Light Speed Release a single planet totally against the successful SWG sandbox design (ROTW) Start working on the Jedi Revamp Have a complete rework of the combat system (CURB) Implement the Village Work on Jedi balancing Work on new planets to tie in with the movie again against the successful SWG sandbox model (Mustafar) Implement NGE
How many times did you look back over previous development updates that showed what they have planed and see how many of those things simply did not get done? Ranger was supposed to be the FIRST! profession to get revamped as per the developers promises but that still never got done before it was deleted. All vets will still hang around the SWG forums at some point or another because it was a game that in principal we all loved. It had more potential than any mmo has been and any that are currently in developments. But bad management, poor company culture and a distinct lack of care for the customer base resulted in a shell of a game that i firmly believe (if implemented correctly and managed well) would of given WoW a very good run for its money. Its not that its a bad idea, its that the people at the reins at SOE simply did not design a game for gamers, they made it for themselves. Although gamers they may be, the amount of people SWG brought into the mmo market changed the target market. They should of seen this as it a gamer this was completely obvious. You could write a book on poor managed soley revolving around SOE. Mistake after mistake, on a development front and a corporate one.
Other gaming companies do similar things to what you listed. Let's look at what Mythic did to DAoC for example.
Push out expansions before they actually fix the bugs to the original game or previous expansion. Heck, there were still bugs from the original launch that weren't even fixed after Darkness Rising expansion.
Put out expansions or patch things that are totally against what the players want. Trials of Atlantis is a great example of this. Turns the game into being mainly PvP (Realm vs. Realm (RvR) in DAoC) endgame, towards PvE endgame grindfest. To make matters worse, the items and special levels (master levels, to which you have to grind through as well) in this expansion has a huge impact on RvR.
Revamp the game in an attempt to "fix it" but that's against what the player-base really wants. The New Frontier revamp of the RvR battlefields is a prime example of this. They rearranged the whole battlezone landscape (battlegrounds and the realm keeps), and made them instanced. Majority of the player-base liked having fast-paced RvR battles, and know exactly where everyone was at (Hib lands anyone?). However, with NF revamp, those lands were extremely rearranged from what the vets knew, and at least doubled in size. Therefore, there were no high areas of RvR anymore, as players were spread all over the maps. This ruined RvR for many. This is somewhat equivalent to NGE.
Revampe the main game with new systems. Mythci did this to DAoC with the instanced exp grinding areas in Catacombs expansion. There were already instanced zones in DAoC (dungeons and the NF lands), but the main exp areas were all open areas. This made those lands become barren as players quickly rushed to the new instanced exp areas, as they could gain exp at a much higher rate. Which changed the core game... thus similar to NGE.
So, these things are not unique to just SOE. About the only thing Mythic hasn't done that SOE has, is bait and switch. However, Mythic has done their fair share of promising fixes to bugs in current expansions, but only after the next expansion, then never actually fixing the bugs they promised. And, I could go on and on about other gaming companies. About the only gaming company that doesn't truly fit in here is CCP. ( I have limited experience with them) So, before you think that only NGE does these things, I have brought you proof that other companies will do exactly the same.
I've never played DAoC but I'd swear I read somewhere that they have classic servers.
I've never played DAoC but I'd swear I read somewhere that they have classic servers. Is this true?
Yes. But, the Classic Servers only remove the Trials of Atlantis items and master levels from the game. The catacombs instanced exp dungeons and the NF still remains. I know where you are going with that question... Pre-CU will, more than likely, never come back by SOE. If you look at my post about the logical reasons why I think this will not happen, which is a few posts up, you'll see my reasons. Not to mention that SOE has already stated that Pre-CU will not come back.
I've never played DAoC but I'd swear I read somewhere that they have classic servers. Is this true?
Yes. But, the Classic Servers only remove the Trials of Atlantis items and master levels from the game. The catacombs instanced exp dungeons and the NF still remains. I know where you are going with that question... Pre-CU will, more than likely, never come back by SOE. If you look at my post about the logical reasons why I think this will not happen, which is a few posts up, you'll see my reasons. Not to mention that SOE has already stated that Pre-CU will not come back.
Ah, but at least it appears as though they've made an attempt to make some kind of a reconciliation with thier subscribers.
First off, he isnt on a high horse, secondly he is expressing his opnion and has a right to do so. You also have your right to express your opnion but i also have a right to disagree with you vortex. You want to praise SOE and like their games, good luck with you and i hope for your sake that SOE doesnt stab you in the back like they did to us VETs.
If all you nge'ers want to turn your back against your fellow gamers and praise SOE for its work, then you my friends will get what they call a rude awakening. It has nothing to do with the game anymore, its about respect and $OE doesnt respect its customers in any way, shape or form. I hope you know that $OE is laughing at you NGE'ers, your the type of people they love and want and thats what we all know are known as suckers.
So like im sure most of you have all heard this before but before you attack someone on what one says towards and about $OE, ask yourself how you would feel if you were in the VETS shoes, ask yourself would you be singing the same tune now if you yourself was screwed over by a company? Please, ask yourself that and see how you would like it.
OMG!!! Can you grasp at any more straws than this? I'm "turning my back on" my "fellow gamers" just because I happen to enjoy a game? Riiiight... I knew the NGE hating vets were cynical, hate-filled, and irrational, but I never knew that you all could stoop to this level. I don't even know how to respond to this utter nonsense, because that's what it is... irrational, hate-filled nonsense.
Oh i'm sure the hate is completely rational. If someone screwed you over i'm damn sure you'd say something about it. If you didn't it would open up more avenues for you to get suckered by other people or even the same company over and over. Theres got to a be a point where people make a unified stand (or at least majority) and say "hey.. this is wrong and you need to change it"
Personally if they ever fully reverted back to the pre-cu style that many are hoping (from what I read) Id go back their in a heartbeat. Because to me that would be that they have seen what they have done, admitted it (which they already have done but no action), and changed it back. Until then I and many others will continue our struggle against a company that has did wrong to its paying customers.. At least until SOMEONE brings back pre-cu. ;)Now, this is funny. The vets, to which this forum was specifically designed for, claims to hate SOE soooo much, yet a lot of such vets claim that they would return to SWG if they reverted back to Pre-CU. So, you'd go back to the company that has soooo unjustly screwed you with NGE if they reverted back to Pre-CU. Talk about maintaining your convictions there . And, before any of such vets can argue that "reverting back to CU = an apology", that's just false. SOE would just be seeking the almighty bottom dollar again, as other companies do. There would be no apology... just more corporate greed. Thus, if they switched back to Pre-CU, they would alienate any individual who is playing NGE that likes it... thus screwing over those players in the process. Thus, the same thing occurs. And, before you argue that "The would be doing those NGE players a favor by switching back to Pre-CU," that would be an opinion that could easily be countered by their opinion. Therefore it's just a grain of salt, so to speak.
Anyways, this whole talk of reverting back to Pre-CU is nonsense. If SOE is searching for the almighty bottom dollar, then why haven't they changed back to Pre-CU? Yes, NGE does have less players than Pre-CU, so it's only logical for them to switch back. The only two logical reasons I can think that they would not switch back is:
They did not retain a back-up copy of the Pre-CU code. This could be especially true for the server-wide code. The game code is easily replaced by any individual who has a Pre-CU CD. However, any patches or server-wide code would be improbable to duplicate without a previous backup.
Lucas Arts is preventing them from reverting back to Pre-CU due to it being not "Star Warsy" enough. Seeing as how LA has the overally liscense rights to anything relating to Star Wars, it is highly improbable that they would not voice their opinion on whatever product bears Star Wars. Therefore, if they disliked something that falls within this liscense, then they would request changes or retract their liscense agreement with the game developers. I'm speaking in purely hypotheticals, but it is extremely logical that this is a valid possibility.
I think there is a big missunderstanding here about why players are still sticking around these forums. Yes they are pissed, yes they are to a certain extent ashamed of being taken to the cleaners by SOE and justifiably so. But the main reason they stick around is they loved what they game used to be. Sure they would go back if the damage was reverted. Why wouldnt they? Its the changes that SOE made that causes so much hate, not just the comany in general.
There would always be that resentment towards SOE even if they did go back but atleast they would have their oringinal game back.
As for why SOE will not turn on a few Pre-CU servers.
The primary reason is that it would cast a large shadow over the development team, so much so that they would essnetially be admitting they did something incredibly wrong and after spending all this money they were better off doing nothing but with the old system.
How would the investors react if suddenly they found that after stumping up all this extra cash to make these changes players didnt even play them? It would be ruin for the dev team on any future projects. People simply wouldnt want to give them money as they obviously do not know how to design a game.
There are two clearly definable games now. SWG and the NGE. There is little to show they are the same game. This is a disaster for the marketing strat and even more impossible to manage on a development front.
Lastly i believe that if Pre-CU servers were brought back, the issues that needed fixing back then would still need fixing. As such money would need to be secured to do this and working on two seperate games, let alone fixing a code that for all intents and purposes was suposed to be fixed wth the NGE would just be a nightmare.
End of the day, its all about corporate image. If the pre-cu servers were brought back and surpased the NGE servers (which im sure we and SOE both expect would happen) then the company would be percieved as an even worse opinion as it is now, loosing what little credibiility they have left.
SWG has already damaged the star wars licence so i cant imagine that the impacts of pre-cu servers would be taken lightly. Yes it would be good for us, but from a business perspective, it would only be seen as what a massive waste of money developing this new game experience that no one wants to play.
So, before you think that only NGE does these things, I have brought you proof that other companies will do exactly the same.
I never said it was just SOE. I was simply highlghting what sort of things they have done wrong.
Yes other companies have screwed customers over and this will always be the case as long as there are passionate fans. It doesnt make it ok though just because other companies have done similar or the same.
Bad practices are market wide but its SOE that really brought this to the vocal masses as it drew a new crowd into MMOs. Its these damaging first impressions that did the most harm, not doing what other companies have done.
SWG was great because we had such a great fan base who were not afraid the say exactly what they thought and ultimatly show their stregnth with suscription cancellations. They walked and left SOE to get on with it. I was proud when i quit. I was a ranger correspondent for a long time and the day when i finally just let go and said im quitting because of x,y and z came as such a relief to me. I was waiting around for things that were never going to happen. I was paying for potential, not a complete game and the amount of crap fed by the devs was just incredible at times. There seemed to be no communication between the team.
Other gaming companies do similar things to what you listed. Let's look at what Mythic did to DAoC for example.
Push out expansions before they actually fix the bugs to the original game or previous expansion. Heck, there were still bugs from the original launch that weren't even fixed after Darkness Rising expansion.
Put out expansions or patch things that are totally against what the players want. Trials of Atlantis is a great example of this. Turns the game into being mainly PvP (Realm vs. Realm (RvR) in DAoC) endgame, towards PvE endgame grindfest. To make matters worse, the items and special levels (master levels, to which you have to grind through as well) in this expansion has a huge impact on RvR.
Revamp the game in an attempt to "fix it" but that's against what the player-base really wants. The New Frontier revamp of the RvR battlefields is a prime example of this. They rearranged the whole battlezone landscape (battlegrounds and the realm keeps), and made them instanced. Majority of the player-base liked having fast-paced RvR battles, and know exactly where everyone was at (Hib lands anyone?). However, with NF revamp, those lands were extremely rearranged from what the vets knew, and at least doubled in size. Therefore, there were no high areas of RvR anymore, as players were spread all over the maps. This ruined RvR for many. This is somewhat equivalent to NGE. Revampe the main game with new systems. Mythci did this to DAoC with the instanced exp grinding areas in Catacombs expansion. There were already instanced zones in DAoC (dungeons and the NF lands), but the main exp areas were all open areas. This made those lands become barren as players quickly rushed to the new instanced exp areas, as they could gain exp at a much higher rate. Which changed the core game... thus similar to NGE.
So, these things are not unique to just SOE. About the only thing Mythic hasn't done that SOE has, is bait and switch. However, Mythic has done their fair share of promising fixes to bugs in current expansions, but only after the next expansion, then never actually fixing the bugs they promised. And, I could go on and on about other gaming companies. About the only gaming company that doesn't truly fit in here is CCP. ( I have limited experience with them) So, before you think that only NGE does these things, I have brought you proof that other companies will do exactly the same.
What in the hell are you talking about? Mythic's changes to DAoC did not change the core game at the least. Comparing the two companies on basis of ethics is laughable. The comparison of NGE to Catacombs of all things is downright laughable. NGE was not an expansion, it was a cataclysmic phenomena of live design: redesigning the game's interactive functionality entirely.
The point of Catacombs was completely opposite that of ToA: giving the players what they wanted. The catacomb dungeons provide quick leveling so that players can grind alts to appropriate BG levels, turn off xp and rp, and PvP all night. Best of all, players can still run around the old game world if they so choose (in fact, thanks to camp bonus, that is sometimes even more xp-profitable than catacombs). Ever since ToA, Mythic gave the players what they wanted -- classic servers, catacombs, story arcs.
Nowhere, at no time, did Mythic ever change DAoC into a lame-duck shooter, remove classes only to reintroduce them later as "new content," and make false promises. Post-TOA, they learned from their mistake, something that SOE is too proud to do. If the players disagreed with something, Mythic would appease the players whilst SOE wouldn't give two left nuts. SOE is too hellbent on selling the NGE as "The Way" instead of trying to make everyone happy.
What makes the NGE unique -- and therefore unlike any other developers' effects at making a game new through expansion -- is that it was a complete strip mining of the game and the methods by which it was played. If you want to make a comparison a la NGE, your primary suspect is EQ2. After WoW started getting very successful, EQ2 started to mimic WoW greatly in terms of speed, gameplay, and even PvP, which initially wasn't ever intended for EQ2. But guess what -- SOE is behind that as well! Turbine's AC1 might be your next suspect with "PK lite" but that was a change to one mechanic of the game. You'd have to go all the way back to UO for a true NGE-caliber fiasco, and that was about a decade ago.
-- xpaladin
[MMOz] AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
Did'nt Mythic, create Classic servers for the users that did not want the Atlantis expansion? I just tried it out again and found the classic servers to have the most folks on them. That should tell us something about Mythics policy towards its community. Just my 2c
So, before you think that only NGE does these things, I have brought you proof that other companies will do exactly the same.
I never said it was just SOE. I was simply highlghting what sort of things they have done wrong.
Yes other companies have screwed customers over and this will always be the case as long as there are passionate fans. It doesnt make it ok though just because other companies have done similar or the same.
Bad practices are market wide but its SOE that really brought this to the vocal masses as it drew a new crowd into MMOs. Its these damaging first impressions that did the most harm, not doing what other companies have done.
SWG was great because we had such a great fan base who were not afraid the say exactly what they thought and ultimatly show their stregnth with suscription cancellations. They walked and left SOE to get on with it. I was proud when i quit. I was a ranger correspondent for a long time and the day when i finally just let go and said im quitting because of x,y and z came as such a relief to me. I was waiting around for things that were never going to happen. I was paying for potential, not a complete game and the amount of crap fed by the devs was just incredible at times. There seemed to be no communication between the team.
I think one issue is the other companies did not practically declare war on their former customers the way SOE and LA did. You had good ol Nancy essentially call customers a bunch of bookworms who had no clue what fun really was. You had devs ask how on earth they found what pre-cu people did was fun. Combine this with SOE's well deserved (at the time, I can't speak of a change now) reputation as being the downright worst when it came to customer service, the decisions surrounding the NGE have so far proven to be probably the biggest blunder ever committed in the MMO market, and will be a textbook case for future game designers of especially what not to do.
There was also the constant flip flopping. You had Julio and friends constantly attacking those who criticized the NGE, talking about just how fun it is. Then later you had Smedley come out and say the game was nowhere near fun. (I think Smedley was speaking honestly there, the man has remarkable candor when he is allowed to speak uncensored.)
Comments
Does the HAR work yet?
I very much enjoyed the original post in this thread...good read. And the last post, I THINK, said something I'm hoping some future MMO will realize: that complex, open-ended "sandbox" MMOs CAN work, CAN garner a good-sized, profitable market with longevity. That's what made SWG for me. Yes, I saw the original first run of A New Hope when I was young. Yes, the first 3 (or last 3?...the earlier ones) were films that I still watch with joy. But I was and always am a Trekkie. I played SWG fervently because it was a good GAME. It had a great community, highly complex crafting and departed totally from the loot-drop-gear model. Pre-CU (and, really, even up until NGE) the best gear WAS player made. And your crafter needed some really long-term dedication to be able to produce the best gear. Also needed help from other profs, so there was interdependency from crafters. Guilds would make sure they had all the crafts covered so they could be sure of producing everything for their members. If they'd looked at balancing the combat profs similarly, I think they could have implemented their PvP/RvR type stuf a lot better. The combat profs really weren't interdependent for the most part. Only when you hit something diabolical like the DWB did you need to think about what your team (or teams!) had going for them. And the absolute necessity of having an entertainer on call for things like that was a great use of a "social" prof. Pre-CU entertainers were even MORE necessary with the old Mind Healing.
There were so many things that old SWG had that made it unique to the industry that, even to this day, most of us vets can live with the bugs. It really didn't crash for me so I don't have much to say about the mechanical end of things. And it was really only laggy in Spamonet and Greed, so I didn't have that problem either. Yes, I'd have loved it if my commando had more than one weapon. I used them all (because I also had a WS in among my 5 accounts), but the flamer was the only weapon in a serious fight. Yes, it made me mad that a guy with fists could destroy a guy with a gun every time. Yes, it would've been great if they'd actually DONE something with all those different armour resists, rather than just 2 and the others weren't implemented. Yes, I'd have loved a DAoC RvR type game within the game. But SWG was just so much fun that most of the stuf could be worked around or plain didn't matter.
What's really weird to me is that another open-ended, complex-crafting, non-loot-gear-model, sandbox-style MMO ALSO has been plagued by corporate mismanagement: Horizons. While nowhere near the number of players as SWG, it too had many of the things that made SWG great, including a great community. Of course, its corporate mismanagement began long before its initial launch, instead of after it had already gotten a good following.
SOE doesn't get another Xixbuck for the rest of my life. Sony itself gets as little as possible now, in fact. (Just passed on some Sony headphones for JVC last week.) If SOE opened pre-CU servers or did an SWG2, I'd still stay away. If SOE took over a Star Trek MMO and...oh wait...they did.
Oh well.
Tabla Rassa it is. Save us, Lord British!
-- Xix
"I know what you're thinking: 'Why, oh WHY, didn't I take the BLUE pill?'"
From what evidence are you deriving these sweeping generalizations I have to ask? Posts by people who have no idea why we are ticked off are common and I know I as a consumer would care if I were considering purchasing the game.
If you were thinking of buying a car and find out that customers who had purchased it before you were pissed off and ranting would you care?
Even if you didn't care about the specifics would you still buy it?
Corporations have a word for people like you who (apparently) still would: a sucker. They love your kind.
I agree, but i have a different word for him: tool.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
edited, orignal post is below.
As a person that has played the Pre-Cu version of SWG,Cu version and NGE version, I can say that the depth and sandbox element in Pre-Cu makes the NGE version looks like ghost shell of what it once was.
Thats why we still angry. In the hunt for money they ruined the game and turned their back to their current playerbase. And with the sound of "flush" we were gone. As adults I think we are entitled to use our voice and say "Hey that was wrong, dont threat us like that". We invested time and money into the game, but what was it worth?
Its not about crying or toys been taken away, its about principles. I mean, people doesnt buy a game and create a large strong community just to have it destroyed. They put money and time into the game and trust the developers to make decisions that will be the best for the game and the community. Its about how far you can go as a company before you make people feel betrayed and unfair handled. Its about ethics between company and players. SoE saw the money WoW made and tried to trade their current playerbase for some of that money by revamping the game from a mature sandbox game to a fast pace shoot em up that would attract the young ones. They failed.
And when you handle things like SoE handle the CU and the NGE, you sure are pissing of a lot of people. You burn the bridges and silence the angry mob with bans and deleted posts on the forums. I think thats why so many of us still are angry, we still stand at the other side and want a answer why they flushed us down the toilet, like we were worth nothing. But its complete silence like we never existed.
Well thats all I got to say about that.
(And please lets us Vets rant on these fine specially made Vet forums, without coming in here and try to rub our noses, its getting old. I cant speak for other forums though, must be renegades.)
The Second Day Vet
First off, get off your high horse there. I actually agree with randomt on this. After trying out the NGE, I find that it is quite a bit more sand-boxy than a lot of other mmorpgs. This is espeically true with the CH/BE being reintroduced. He never said anything stating that, "it was better, or more sand-boxy than Pre-CU." Therefore, your flame against him on this subject was not warranted. As I said, I agree with randomt on the NGE being more sand-box than a lot of other mmorpgs. However, I also agree with the OP on a lot of stuff as well.
Second, this is the vets forum. Which means that all vets have the right to post here, regardless of if they are pro-NGE or con-NGE. I see a lot of posts from the con-NGE vets that keep saying that, "this forum is only for vets that hate NGE." I'm sick of this elitest attitude. This forum is for any vet that wishes to voice their opinion, and they have a right too. And, not every vet shares your hatred, justified or not, of SOE. So, either accept that, or get out. Plain and simple.
First off, he isnt on a high horse, secondly he is expressing his opnion and has a right to do so. You also have your right to express your opnion but i also have a right to disagree with you vortex. You want to praise SOE and like their games, good luck with you and i hope for your sake that SOE doesnt stab you in the back like they did to us VETs.
If all you nge'ers want to turn your back against your fellow gamers and praise SOE for its work, then you my friends will get what they call a rude awakening. It has nothing to do with the game anymore, its about respect and $OE doesnt respect its customers in any way, shape or form. I hope you know that $OE is laughing at you NGE'ers, your the type of people they love and want and thats what we all know are known as suckers.
So like im sure most of you have all heard this before but before you attack someone on what one says towards and about $OE, ask yourself how you would feel if you were in the VETS shoes, ask yourself would you be singing the same tune now if you yourself was screwed over by a company? Please, ask yourself that and see how you would like it.
But, I have seen a lot of con-NGE vets who have been taking such attitude, as in "only con-NGE vets allowed in here", and I'm kind of ticked off about it.
You do know what refuge is right? Usually comes with refugees... go look it up. Besides its a common agreement/knowledge/common sense (whatever you wish to see it as) that these part of the forums are for people mad about the massive changes.
Another sticky to futher prove my point:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/96080
Thanks!
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
1B: Tread lightly? Have you been following some of their other games? This isn't the only game they have incorporated sweeping changes. Its what they do. They can "oh we will never let it happen again" all they want. Their track record states otherwise.
1C: What? LA had a smaller hand in it. SoE's game track record vs LA's game track record should prove that enough. I would go into a whole comparison report but as it stands, looking at the clock, I don't have the time.
1D: In my opinion the NGE isn't fun. I tried it again just to see if i changed any from the day it was introduced to us. A bit. But the "new class" based system has lost its sandbox feel. And even more so with the "kill this many of this" quests. Nuff said on that.
Point 2: Maybe, but it wouldn't be hard for LA to give SW MMO rights to anyone else they deemed worthy.
Point 3A: You meant to make a point 3 right? NGE is not going the right way, its still trying to copy wow, and stuff is getting added desperately now, such as the funny restablishment of the CH system. I thought SoE declared the CH stuff un-starwarsy? Hmmm... Honestly? They just need to roll it back to pre-cu where the subs were high and the downhill crap started.
3B: Nah he just needs to be fired.... sorry, but he just does....
Just my two cents.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
fishermage.blogspot.com
Nobody cares what you like or dislike, you were the one who chose to come here and incite flames and call people names. Whenever you do that, people will react negatively to you.
fishermage.blogspot.com
And to think, that the woman who's dubbed Nancy "Readin is bad m'kay?" McIntyre now is a high paidmember of a company that produce educational stuff.
But anyway, yes a good list.
Altho, personally, one of the "major" things for me, well, except gameplay things like destroying my character, destroying my playstyle, removing my fun and more... Is that they used the excuse of "more Star Warsy" to defend the NGE when they infact turned the game into some meltingpot of Star Wars textures with NO connections whatsoever to Star Wars history, background, lore and continuity.
Basicly they took a Star Wars game, and removed ALL Star Wars, and then said they made it Star Warsy.... *sigh*
Yes I remember this when I played the lil intro part of the free trial. Once Solo told you to side with either the Empire or the Rebellion, wherever you made the most credits, I recognized this was not Star Warsy at all.
Wow great post, Hits the nail on the head with that one.......
Kudos to the op
Oh i'm sure the hate is completely rational. If someone screwed you over i'm damn sure you'd say something about it. If you didn't it would open up more avenues for you to get suckered by other people or even the same company over and over. Theres got to a be a point where people make a unified stand (or at least majority) and say "hey.. this is wrong and you need to change it"
Personally if they ever fully reverted back to the pre-cu style that many are hoping (from what I read) Id go back their in a heartbeat. Because to me that would be that they have seen what they have done, admitted it (which they already have done but no action), and changed it back. Until then I and many others will continue our struggle against a company that has did wrong to its paying customers.. At least until SOMEONE brings back pre-cu.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
Nobody cares what you like or dislike, you were the one who chose to come here and incite flames and call people names. Whenever you do that, people will react negatively to you. I highly disagree. The vets, to which this forum was specifically designed for (aka haters), have already a preconceived hatred for anyone that likes SOE or NGE. Therefore, regardless of if I make the most thought out, logical argument, these vets will automatically disagree with it and dislike me because I happen to like the NGE. You all need to open up your eyes, and get over it. If you hate SOE so much due to them screwing you over, then be prepared for other companies to do the same. Every company is out for the almighty bottom dollar (net income for anyone who's skilled in business). Therefore, companies will screw you over every chance they think they can make more money. SOE's example is a bit extreme, but I've seen Mythic, EA, Blizzard, and CCP (EvE Online) screw over their customers at one time or another.
Nobody cares what you like or dislike, you were the one who chose to come here and incite flames and call people names. Whenever you do that, people will react negatively to you.I highly disagree. The vets, to which this forum was specifically designed for (aka haters), have already a preconceived hatred for anyone that likes SOE or NGE. Therefore, regardless of if I make the most thought out, logical argument, these vets will automatically disagree with it and dislike me because I happen to like the NGE. You all need to open up your eyes, and get over it. If you hate SOE so much due to them screwing you over, then be prepared for other companies to do the same. Every company is out for the almighty bottom dollar (net income for anyone who's skilled in business). Therefore, companies will screw you over every chance they think they can make more money. SOE's example is a bit extreme, but I've seen Mythic, EA, Blizzard, and CCP (EvE Online) screw over their customers at one time or another.
Perhaps the reason you feel people dislike you is because you're being rude to those who disagree with you. Using terms like "open your eyes" and "get over it" are very demeaning and insulting.
I personally DO NOT dislike anyone who likes SoE. I just don't appreciate what SoE has done to MANY of it's customers.
You dont have to screw over customers to reach that 'almighty bottom dollar'.
Customer centril companies often are the most profitable.
SOE did screw over customers and in turn ripped off the hand that fed them. They didnt listen and totally emboddied the typical SOE business culture of 'we design the games, then get players to play them' not gamer centric of 'we build a game that gamers want they will want to play'.
Its simply the fact that SOE believe they know best, when if they took time out to actually read the forums of what people wanted, they would be in a far greater state than they are now. Their priorities should of been (considering they would of launched this beta product early anyway):
Instead it was:
How many times did you look back over previous development updates that showed what they have planed and see how many of those things simply did not get done? Ranger was supposed to be the FIRST! profession to get revamped as per the developers promises but that still never got done before it was deleted.
All vets will still hang around the SWG forums at some point or another because it was a game that in principal we all loved. It had more potential than any mmo has been and any that are currently in developments. But bad management, poor company culture and a distinct lack of care for the customer base resulted in a shell of a game that i firmly believe (if implemented correctly and managed well) would of given WoW a very good run for its money.
Its not that its a bad idea, its that the people at the reins at SOE simply did not design a game for gamers, they made it for themselves. Although gamers they may be, the amount of people SWG brought into the mmo market changed the target market. They should of seen this as it a gamer this was completely obvious.
You could write a book on poor managed soley revolving around SOE. Mistake after mistake, on a development front and a corporate one.
Oh i'm sure the hate is completely rational. If someone screwed you over i'm damn sure you'd say something about it. If you didn't it would open up more avenues for you to get suckered by other people or even the same company over and over. Theres got to a be a point where people make a unified stand (or at least majority) and say "hey.. this is wrong and you need to change it"
Personally if they ever fully reverted back to the pre-cu style that many are hoping (from what I read) Id go back their in a heartbeat. Because to me that would be that they have seen what they have done, admitted it (which they already have done but no action), and changed it back. Until then I and many others will continue our struggle against a company that has did wrong to its paying customers.. At least until SOMEONE brings back pre-cu.
Anyways, this whole talk of reverting back to Pre-CU is nonsense. If SOE is searching for the almighty bottom dollar, then why haven't they changed back to Pre-CU? Yes, NGE does have less players than Pre-CU, so it's only logical for them to switch back. The only two logical reasons I can think that they would not switch back is:
- Push out expansions before they actually fix the bugs to the original game or previous expansion. Heck, there were still bugs from the original launch that weren't even fixed after Darkness Rising expansion.
- Put out expansions or patch things that are totally against what the players want. Trials of Atlantis is a great example of this. Turns the game into being mainly PvP (Realm vs. Realm (RvR) in DAoC) endgame, towards PvE endgame grindfest. To make matters worse, the items and special levels (master levels, to which you have to grind through as well) in this expansion has a huge impact on RvR.
- Revamp the game in an attempt to "fix it" but that's against what the player-base really wants. The New Frontier revamp of the RvR battlefields is a prime example of this. They rearranged the whole battlezone landscape (battlegrounds and the realm keeps), and made them instanced. Majority of the player-base liked having fast-paced RvR battles, and know exactly where everyone was at (Hib lands anyone?). However, with NF revamp, those lands were extremely rearranged from what the vets knew, and at least doubled in size. Therefore, there were no high areas of RvR anymore, as players were spread all over the maps. This ruined RvR for many. This is somewhat equivalent to NGE.
- Revampe the main game with new systems. Mythci did this to DAoC with the instanced exp grinding areas in Catacombs expansion. There were already instanced zones in DAoC (dungeons and the NF lands), but the main exp areas were all open areas. This made those lands become barren as players quickly rushed to the new instanced exp areas, as they could gain exp at a much higher rate. Which changed the core game... thus similar to NGE.
So, these things are not unique to just SOE. About the only thing Mythic hasn't done that SOE has, is bait and switch. However, Mythic has done their fair share of promising fixes to bugs in current expansions, but only after the next expansion, then never actually fixing the bugs they promised. And, I could go on and on about other gaming companies. About the only gaming company that doesn't truly fit in here is CCP. ( I have limited experience with them) So, before you think that only NGE does these things, I have brought you proof that other companies will do exactly the same.- Push out expansions before they actually fix the bugs to the original game or previous expansion. Heck, there were still bugs from the original launch that weren't even fixed after Darkness Rising expansion.
- Put out expansions or patch things that are totally against what the players want. Trials of Atlantis is a great example of this. Turns the game into being mainly PvP (Realm vs. Realm (RvR) in DAoC) endgame, towards PvE endgame grindfest. To make matters worse, the items and special levels (master levels, to which you have to grind through as well) in this expansion has a huge impact on RvR.
- Revamp the game in an attempt to "fix it" but that's against what the player-base really wants. The New Frontier revamp of the RvR battlefields is a prime example of this. They rearranged the whole battlezone landscape (battlegrounds and the realm keeps), and made them instanced. Majority of the player-base liked having fast-paced RvR battles, and know exactly where everyone was at (Hib lands anyone?). However, with NF revamp, those lands were extremely rearranged from what the vets knew, and at least doubled in size. Therefore, there were no high areas of RvR anymore, as players were spread all over the maps. This ruined RvR for many. This is somewhat equivalent to NGE.
- Revampe the main game with new systems. Mythci did this to DAoC with the instanced exp grinding areas in Catacombs expansion. There were already instanced zones in DAoC (dungeons and the NF lands), but the main exp areas were all open areas. This made those lands become barren as players quickly rushed to the new instanced exp areas, as they could gain exp at a much higher rate. Which changed the core game... thus similar to NGE.
So, these things are not unique to just SOE. About the only thing Mythic hasn't done that SOE has, is bait and switch. However, Mythic has done their fair share of promising fixes to bugs in current expansions, but only after the next expansion, then never actually fixing the bugs they promised. And, I could go on and on about other gaming companies. About the only gaming company that doesn't truly fit in here is CCP. ( I have limited experience with them) So, before you think that only NGE does these things, I have brought you proof that other companies will do exactly the same.I've never played DAoC but I'd swear I read somewhere that they have classic servers.
Is this true?
Ah, but at least it appears as though they've made an attempt to make some kind of a reconciliation with thier subscribers.
Oh i'm sure the hate is completely rational. If someone screwed you over i'm damn sure you'd say something about it. If you didn't it would open up more avenues for you to get suckered by other people or even the same company over and over. Theres got to a be a point where people make a unified stand (or at least majority) and say "hey.. this is wrong and you need to change it"
Personally if they ever fully reverted back to the pre-cu style that many are hoping (from what I read) Id go back their in a heartbeat. Because to me that would be that they have seen what they have done, admitted it (which they already have done but no action), and changed it back. Until then I and many others will continue our struggle against a company that has did wrong to its paying customers.. At least until SOMEONE brings back pre-cu. ;)Now, this is funny. The vets, to which this forum was specifically designed for, claims to hate SOE soooo much, yet a lot of such vets claim that they would return to SWG if they reverted back to Pre-CU. So, you'd go back to the company that has soooo unjustly screwed you with NGE if they reverted back to Pre-CU. Talk about maintaining your convictions there
Anyways, this whole talk of reverting back to Pre-CU is nonsense. If SOE is searching for the almighty bottom dollar, then why haven't they changed back to Pre-CU? Yes, NGE does have less players than Pre-CU, so it's only logical for them to switch back. The only two logical reasons I can think that they would not switch back is:
I think there is a big missunderstanding here about why players are still sticking around these forums. Yes they are pissed, yes they are to a certain extent ashamed of being taken to the cleaners by SOE and justifiably so. But the main reason they stick around is they loved what they game used to be. Sure they would go back if the damage was reverted. Why wouldnt they? Its the changes that SOE made that causes so much hate, not just the comany in general.
There would always be that resentment towards SOE even if they did go back but atleast they would have their oringinal game back.
As for why SOE will not turn on a few Pre-CU servers.
End of the day, its all about corporate image. If the pre-cu servers were brought back and surpased the NGE servers (which im sure we and SOE both expect would happen) then the company would be percieved as an even worse opinion as it is now, loosing what little credibiility they have left.
SWG has already damaged the star wars licence so i cant imagine that the impacts of pre-cu servers would be taken lightly. Yes it would be good for us, but from a business perspective, it would only be seen as what a massive waste of money developing this new game experience that no one wants to play.
I never said it was just SOE. I was simply highlghting what sort of things they have done wrong.
Yes other companies have screwed customers over and this will always be the case as long as there are passionate fans. It doesnt make it ok though just because other companies have done similar or the same.
Bad practices are market wide but its SOE that really brought this to the vocal masses as it drew a new crowd into MMOs. Its these damaging first impressions that did the most harm, not doing what other companies have done.
SWG was great because we had such a great fan base who were not afraid the say exactly what they thought and ultimatly show their stregnth with suscription cancellations. They walked and left SOE to get on with it. I was proud when i quit. I was a ranger correspondent for a long time and the day when i finally just let go and said im quitting because of x,y and z came as such a relief to me. I was waiting around for things that were never going to happen. I was paying for potential, not a complete game and the amount of crap fed by the devs was just incredible at times. There seemed to be no communication between the team.
The point of Catacombs was completely opposite that of ToA: giving the players what they wanted. The catacomb dungeons provide quick leveling so that players can grind alts to appropriate BG levels, turn off xp and rp, and PvP all night. Best of all, players can still run around the old game world if they so choose (in fact, thanks to camp bonus, that is sometimes even more xp-profitable than catacombs). Ever since ToA, Mythic gave the players what they wanted -- classic servers, catacombs, story arcs.
Nowhere, at no time, did Mythic ever change DAoC into a lame-duck shooter, remove classes only to reintroduce them later as "new content," and make false promises. Post-TOA, they learned from their mistake, something that SOE is too proud to do. If the players disagreed with something, Mythic would appease the players whilst SOE wouldn't give two left nuts. SOE is too hellbent on selling the NGE as "The Way" instead of trying to make everyone happy.
What makes the NGE unique -- and therefore unlike any other developers' effects at making a game new through expansion -- is that it was a complete strip mining of the game and the methods by which it was played. If you want to make a comparison a la NGE, your primary suspect is EQ2. After WoW started getting very successful, EQ2 started to mimic WoW greatly in terms of speed, gameplay, and even PvP, which initially wasn't ever intended for EQ2. But guess what -- SOE is behind that as well! Turbine's AC1 might be your next suspect with "PK lite" but that was a change to one mechanic of the game. You'd have to go all the way back to UO for a true NGE-caliber fiasco, and that was about a decade ago.
-- xpaladin
[MMOz]
AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
Did'nt Mythic, create Classic servers for the users that did not want the Atlantis expansion? I just tried it out again and found the classic servers to have the most folks on them. That should tell us something about Mythics policy towards its community. Just my 2c
Dakk
I never said it was just SOE. I was simply highlghting what sort of things they have done wrong.
Yes other companies have screwed customers over and this will always be the case as long as there are passionate fans. It doesnt make it ok though just because other companies have done similar or the same.
Bad practices are market wide but its SOE that really brought this to the vocal masses as it drew a new crowd into MMOs. Its these damaging first impressions that did the most harm, not doing what other companies have done.
SWG was great because we had such a great fan base who were not afraid the say exactly what they thought and ultimatly show their stregnth with suscription cancellations. They walked and left SOE to get on with it. I was proud when i quit. I was a ranger correspondent for a long time and the day when i finally just let go and said im quitting because of x,y and z came as such a relief to me. I was waiting around for things that were never going to happen. I was paying for potential, not a complete game and the amount of crap fed by the devs was just incredible at times. There seemed to be no communication between the team.
I think one issue is the other companies did not practically declare war on their former customers the way SOE and LA did. You had good ol Nancy essentially call customers a bunch of bookworms who had no clue what fun really was. You had devs ask how on earth they found what pre-cu people did was fun. Combine this with SOE's well deserved (at the time, I can't speak of a change now) reputation as being the downright worst when it came to customer service, the decisions surrounding the NGE have so far proven to be probably the biggest blunder ever committed in the MMO market, and will be a textbook case for future game designers of especially what not to do.
There was also the constant flip flopping. You had Julio and friends constantly attacking those who criticized the NGE, talking about just how fun it is. Then later you had Smedley come out and say the game was nowhere near fun. (I think Smedley was speaking honestly there, the man has remarkable candor when he is allowed to speak uncensored.)