Once again MMORPG.com chooses its censorship against the "vocal minority". If telling people they are crying that there favorite toy got taken away isn't blatant trolling I don't know what qualifies.
As my post that got locked stated. There are certain things that NGE posters do that are blantantly inflamatory and need to be stopped. They come into every single thread and post the same 6 comments meant to bait, troll and flame and mmorpg lets them just trash every single thread on this board turning it into us having to respond to the same things over and over and over again. It is frankly ruining this forum.
The OP here responding to my post and I respect his opinion. However, he is different. His title alone indicates what he posts is not likely to be censored by other staffers. It is us regular posters. Some of us who have received bans for putting WIDELY used internet puns in posts. Whose posts get locked, deleted and don't even get the common descency of a reason. So you'll pardon my distaste and pleasure at the moderators. Posters who support the NGE get to troll away over here and I am sick and tired of it. Maybe you don't think its a big deal. Maybe it doesn't bother you. It bothers alot of people like me.
I'd have started a new topic on this matter but it would be locked since I started it apparently. I tried to create a topic on this and it got locked. Sorry but this is a real pet peeve of mine.
"EVEN IF TOMORROW PRE-CU SERVERS (OR CU SERVERS FOR THAT MATTER) WERE INTRODUCED, THE MAJORITY OF VETS WOULD STILL NOT COME BACK."
you're out. Why should anyone take interest in you anymore? SOE sure as hell wont, because you just declared there's no way you'll ever pay them money again, and all that you are left to be by making further posts concerning the game is a troll.
Problem is, as soon as you say "EVEN IF TOMORROW PRE-CU SERVERS (OR CU SERVERS FOR THAT MATTER) WERE INTRODUCED, THE MAJORITY OF VETS WOULD STILL NOT COME BACK." you're out. Why should anyone take interest in you anymore? SOE sure as hell wont, because you just declared there's no way you'll ever pay them money again, and all that you are left to be by making further posts concerning the game is a troll.
If a friend of yours told you "Im never buying a product from Company X again because.." would that be considered trolling or futile?
No, I dont agree with Randomt, just like you agree with him. If you think that puts me on "high horses" so be it.
He asked:
"Don't like SOE? That's fine." "But why constantly cry about it everywhere like a 5 year old who had his favorite toy taken away?"
And I answerd with my post, as simple is that.
Flame...huh? You said it. But I cant see it. In no way is my post a flame against Randomt. I disagree with Randomt in the post...but dont flame him.
I has not written that pro-nge arent welcome in this forum in my post, all I said was that if he gonna go with the "stop crying,stop whine,favorit toy taken away" style in the post he can take a hike, we are all grown ups, no need for baby talk here. Thats what I meant with rub our noses, like we were kids.
Questions?
The Second Day Vet
Your original post made you sound very pompous. I appologize on that aspect... it's sometimes hard to determine personality from script. Again, I apologize.
But, I have seen a lot of con-NGE vets who have been taking such attitude, as in "only con-NGE vets allowed in here", and I'm kind of ticked off about it.
Once again MMORPG.com chooses its censorship against the "vocal minority". If telling people they are crying that there favorite toy got taken away isn't blatant trolling I don't know what qualifies. As my post that got locked stated. There are certain things that NGE posters do that are blantantly inflamatory and need to be stopped. They come into every single thread and post the same 6 comments meant to bait, troll and flame and mmorpg lets them just trash every single thread on this board turning it into us having to respond to the same things over and over and over again. It is frankly ruining this forum. The OP here responding to my post and I respect his opinion. However, he is different. His title alone indicates what he posts is not likely to be censored by other staffers. It is us regular posters. Some of us who have received bans for putting WIDELY used internet puns in posts. Whose posts get locked, deleted and don't even get the common descency of a reason. So you'll pardon my distaste and pleasure at the moderators. Posters who support the NGE get to troll away over here and I am sick and tired of it. Maybe you don't think its a big deal. Maybe it doesn't bother you. It bothers alot of people like me. I'd have started a new topic on this matter but it would be locked since I started it apparently. I tried to create a topic on this and it got locked. Sorry but this is a real pet peeve of mine.
<offers haxxjoo a tinfoil hat> Apparently you need it.
The trolling comes from both sides... I have seen it. And, I read your post that got locked... you were basically trolling yourself. The message conveyed by the "Please stop..." post was that you want this forum to be only for the vets that hate NGE. How can you basically speak for ALL vets and say that you want the pro-NGE people to stop posting? Not every vet follows your same beliefs. This forum is called the "SWG veteran refugee", therefore ALL vets should be allowed to voice their opinion, not just the complainers.
You dont need to share the hatred but you hopefully at least understand it. And if thats the case, then how can you support SOE in any possible way ? Take a look at my post here titled a list of falsehoods by SOE. Perhaps then you'll start to understand at all why us vets feel the way we do about SOE. And dont take this personally but you shouldnt be wasting your time and money with SOE on SWG. The point of any MMO is continuance which allows one to build and improve upon a character. With SOE however, the cardinal rule of MMO's (never change the core essence of a MMO) is broken quite a bit. Vets tend to get angry because they realize that the few remaining players who support SWG are doing two primarily BAD things... 1. your sending the message to SOE that its okay to lie, steal and treat its playing community so horribly bad. Why should SOE ever change their ways if there will always be some sucker to replace us ? 2. your standing in the way of SWG2. There will likely never be a sequel or another Star Wars licensed MMO launched until SWG dies. If the remaining few thousand players would quit, we'd be that much closer to a possible replacement game, something hopefully designed by someone other than SOE. Dont get me wrong, I agree with you that SWG is the only decent sandbox mmo out there. But compared to what it once was, its garbage now. And even if SOE fixed the whole game and brought back th 24 classes they removed it would still be morally wrong for us to play it. SOE's behavior for the last 3 years can never justify me or most vets from ever returning to the game...at least until Smedley is fired, classic servers come back, and an apology happens.
I understand everything you said. But, I look at it another way.
1. The problem is, every company is going to lie, cheat, steal, etc... I have seen it with Mythic, EA, SOE, and many non videogame makers. If you think otherwise, then you are niave. However, SOE has to tred lightly... they know that the last time they did something drastically, they suffered BIG time. Anyways, I do not place all the blame on SOE for the NGE debacle... a lot of it goes to LA. I personally liked some of Pre-CU, but I thought the combat portion was broken. NGE's combat has flaws, but I view it to be more balanced than Pre-CU's combat system. Specifically removing the HAM system that made 2H Swordsmen, Riflemen, and anyone who had a mind DoT king due to normally unhealable mind.
2. I highly doubt there will ever be a sequel to SWG, even if people totally stopped playing NGE. And, if there was, I highly doubt that anything would change from the original... especially when LA is basically pulling the strings on the franchise to manipulate the developers.
Personally, I believe SWG is going in the right direction atm. It's not perfect... in some aspects it's not as good as Pre-CU, but it's nowhere near as horrid as some individuals make it out to be. And, the only way Smed gets fired, or openly apologizes, is if the board of directors deems it necessary... and I believe that they probably had more to do with the NGE (potential profits) rather than Smed. Not to say that Smed wasn't a part of this (he was), but he doesn't merit all the blame for the NGE debacle at the beginning.
I'm not here to convert anyone... I'm just replying with my beliefs on the question I was asked.
NGE's combat has flaws, but I view it to be more balanced than Pre-CU's combat system.
Personally, I believe SWG is going in the right direction atm. It's not perfect... in some aspects it's not as good as Pre-CU, but it's nowhere near as horrid as some individuals make it out to be.
CU was more balanced than Pre-CU sure but the NGE isn't more balanced than the CU thats the biggest problem. Most of us aren't very sore about the CU it may have been a drastic change to core game mechanics and those are always hard to swallow but in the end it turned out ok and fixed some of the worst problems with the combat (though just fixing the bugged combat elements would have sufficed).
No the problem is that the NGE removed 80% of what we loved of the game, didn't give anything back, and wasn't justifiable with anything but "we got greedy" in the first place. There was no reason for it.
I finally gave this game a shot the other day.. and ya know.. even if its been dumbed down from what it was originally.. its still much more sandboxy than most mmo's out there, and has more depth than most. I know a lot of vets play ryzom.. but i have to say, the swg in its current state has more depth/content than that...
But I understand from that OP post that its not really about the game itself, and more about having been hurt and not being able to let it go.. which is pretty human. Humans are silly and most aren't really able to grow out of such things. Some are stronger and can shrug such things off and remain neutral.
Though SoE's other products aren't so controversial, I don't particularly like any of them myself (so no, i am no soe fanboi.) In fact I can foresee getting tired of swg pretty fast too, but only because i am not much of a fan of cooperative multiplayer, which is what most mmo's are until much later when you get into the end game pvp stuff.
How many years have the vets been crying on any forum they could get to? All the beta forums of the mmo's I had watched in the past always had them anyway.
Don't like SoE? That's fine. Don't buy their products (and I include all of sony in that, not just sony online entertainment. That includes audio/video products.) But why constantly cry about it everywhere like a 5 year old who had his favorite toy taken away? (dont take that as an insult.) After all I am going on a limb to assume most of you are adults.
With all due respect, I wonder if you even wrote what I said. In a free market economy where word of mouth can influence purchasing, then indeed, people should make their voices heard. To do so is not "crying."
Furthermore, like I gave in the last reason, I honestly think something bigger is at work here, that is more about the state of the MMO market in general than one particular game. SWG just happens to be symbolic of it.
Problem is, as soon as you say "EVEN IF TOMORROW PRE-CU SERVERS (OR CU SERVERS FOR THAT MATTER) WERE INTRODUCED, THE MAJORITY OF VETS WOULD STILL NOT COME BACK." you're out. Why should anyone take interest in you anymore? SOE sure as hell wont, because you just declared there's no way you'll ever pay them money again, and all that you are left to be by making further posts concerning the game is a troll.
Who says my interest is in playing SWG again? Rather, it was to explain why the "the NGE is here to stay, move on" mentality is false. As I noted in the final point, there's something larger at work here than the NGE, mainly the reasoning behind it, that invites disaster. Also, I like to engender discussion on various aspects of gameplay in forums, not just for specific games, but the MMO community in general. Also because it gave me a way to lead into a future column I'm doing on the "inevitability" argument I summarized in my final point.
So if you really care for my reasons those are it.
Once again MMORPG.com chooses its censorship against the "vocal minority". If telling people they are crying that there favorite toy got taken away isn't blatant trolling I don't know what qualifies. As my post that got locked stated. There are certain things that NGE posters do that are blantantly inflamatory and need to be stopped. They come into every single thread and post the same 6 comments meant to bait, troll and flame and mmorpg lets them just trash every single thread on this board turning it into us having to respond to the same things over and over and over again. It is frankly ruining this forum. The OP here responding to my post and I respect his opinion. However, he is different. His title alone indicates what he posts is not likely to be censored by other staffers. It is us regular posters. Some of us who have received bans for putting WIDELY used internet puns in posts. Whose posts get locked, deleted and don't even get the common descency of a reason. So you'll pardon my distaste and pleasure at the moderators. Posters who support the NGE get to troll away over here and I am sick and tired of it. Maybe you don't think its a big deal. Maybe it doesn't bother you. It bothers alot of people like me. I'd have started a new topic on this matter but it would be locked since I started it apparently. I tried to create a topic on this and it got locked. Sorry but this is a real pet peeve of mine.
<offers haxxjoo a tinfoil hat> Apparently you need it.
The trolling comes from both sides... I have seen it. And, I read your post that got locked... you were basically trolling yourself. The message conveyed by the "Please stop..." post was that you want this forum to be only for the vets that hate NGE. How can you basically speak for ALL vets and say that you want the pro-NGE people to stop posting? Not every vet follows your same beliefs. This forum is called the "SWG veteran refugee", therefore ALL vets should be allowed to voice their opinion, not just the complainers.
I never once said I want this board for anything other then its stated purpose. My message was simple, stop with the six comments that are just inflamatory snide little comments. Just as your little snide smart alec comment at the end.
As for your other side comment. It's so childish it doesn't even warrant a response. What is this first grade. Teacher he did it too! If you have somethings the trolls are repeatingly saying on the NGE forum feel free to ask them to Please Stop...
You dont need to share the hatred but you hopefully at least understand it. And if thats the case, then how can you support SOE in any possible way ? Take a look at my post here titled a list of falsehoods by SOE. Perhaps then you'll start to understand at all why us vets feel the way we do about SOE. And dont take this personally but you shouldnt be wasting your time and money with SOE on SWG. The point of any MMO is continuance which allows one to build and improve upon a character. With SOE however, the cardinal rule of MMO's (never change the core essence of a MMO) is broken quite a bit. Vets tend to get angry because they realize that the few remaining players who support SWG are doing two primarily BAD things... 1. your sending the message to SOE that its okay to lie, steal and treat its playing community so horribly bad. Why should SOE ever change their ways if there will always be some sucker to replace us ? 2. your standing in the way of SWG2. There will likely never be a sequel or another Star Wars licensed MMO launched until SWG dies. If the remaining few thousand players would quit, we'd be that much closer to a possible replacement game, something hopefully designed by someone other than SOE. Dont get me wrong, I agree with you that SWG is the only decent sandbox mmo out there. But compared to what it once was, its garbage now. And even if SOE fixed the whole game and brought back th 24 classes they removed it would still be morally wrong for us to play it. SOE's behavior for the last 3 years can never justify me or most vets from ever returning to the game...at least until Smedley is fired, classic servers come back, and an apology happens.
I understand everything you said. But, I look at it another way.
1. The problem is, every company is going to lie, cheat, steal, etc... I have seen it with Mythic, EA, SOE, and many non videogame makers. If you think otherwise, then you are niave. However, SOE has to tred lightly... they know that the last time they did something drastically, they suffered BIG time. Anyways, I do not place all the blame on SOE for the NGE debacle... a lot of it goes to LA. I personally liked some of Pre-CU, but I thought the combat portion was broken. NGE's combat has flaws, but I view it to be more balanced than Pre-CU's combat system. Specifically removing the HAM system that made 2H Swordsmen, Riflemen, and anyone who had a mind DoT king due to normally unhealable mind.
2. I highly doubt there will ever be a sequel to SWG, even if people totally stopped playing NGE. And, if there was, I highly doubt that anything would change from the original... especially when LA is basically pullingthe stringson the franchise to manipulate the developers.
Personally, I believe SWG is going in the right direction atm. It's not perfect... in some aspects it's not as good as Pre-CU, but it's nowhere near as horrid as some individuals make it out to be. And, the only way Smed gets fired, or openly apologizes, is if the board of directors deems it necessary... and I believe that they probably had more to do with the NGE (potential profits) rather than Smed. Not to say that Smed wasn't a part of this (he was), but he doesn't merit all the blame for the NGE debacle at the beginning.
I'm not here to convert anyone... I'm just replying with my beliefs on the question I was asked.
Once again MMORPG.com chooses its censorship against the "vocal minority". If telling people they are crying that there favorite toy got taken away isn't blatant trolling I don't know what qualifies. As my post that got locked stated. There are certain things that NGE posters do that are blantantly inflamatory and need to be stopped. They come into every single thread and post the same 6 comments meant to bait, troll and flame and mmorpg lets them just trash every single thread on this board turning it into us having to respond to the same things over and over and over again. It is frankly ruining this forum. The OP here responding to my post and I respect his opinion. However, he is different. His title alone indicates what he posts is not likely to be censored by other staffers. It is us regular posters. Some of us who have received bans for putting WIDELY used internet puns in posts. Whose posts get locked, deleted and don't even get the common descency of a reason. So you'll pardon my distaste and pleasure at the moderators. Posters who support the NGE get to troll away over here and I am sick and tired of it. Maybe you don't think its a big deal. Maybe it doesn't bother you. It bothers alot of people like me. I'd have started a new topic on this matter but it would be locked since I started it apparently. I tried to create a topic on this and it got locked. Sorry but this is a real pet peeve of mine.
<offers haxxjoo a tinfoil hat> Apparently you need it.
The trolling comes from both sides... I have seen it. And, I read your post that got locked... you were basically trolling yourself. The message conveyed by the "Please stop..." post was that you want this forum to be only for the vets that hate NGE. How can you basically speak for ALL vets and say that you want the pro-NGE people to stop posting? Not every vet follows your same beliefs. This forum is called the "SWG veteran refugee", therefore ALL vets should be allowed to voice their opinion, not just the complainers.
I never once said I want this board for anything other then its stated purpose. My message was simple, stop with the six comments that are just inflamatory snide little comments. Just as your little snide smart alec comment at the end.
As for your other side comment. It's so childish it doesn't even warrant a response. What is this first grade. Teacher he did it too! If you have somethings the trolls are repeatingly saying on the NGE forum feel free to ask them to Please Stop...
Oh no... you are just complaining about how the mmorpg.com moderators are basically targeting the NGE-hating vets by not allowing them to post what they want to post, while allowing pro-NGE vets to post what they want to post. Yet, the problem was that your message was basically telling the pro-NGE'rs to get off this forum. Under your post, that got locked, http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/132192
"Please Stop asking us former veterans to:
...
5. Posting how great swg is doing in the Vet area.
...
Answers why:
...
5. We don't like the NGE version. If it had wow's numbers most of us would still not play it. "
Basically from that exact quote, you are telling the pro-NGE'rs to not give their opinion of the game one bit. Thus, telling them to basically get out. Therefore, the rest of the posts were mainly other NGE haters, with a few pro-NGE'rs. This turned into a flaming match, which then became locked. So, it wasn't you (except the statements you made at the original post).. just the rest of the replies that made it become locked.
2. I highly doubt there will ever be a sequel to SWG, even if people totally stopped playing NGE. And, if there was, I highly doubt that anything would change from the original... especially when LA is basically pullingthe stringson the franchise to manipulate the developers.
And I need the tinfoil hat? Cute... who's being the childish one now? Apparently you are showing your true maturity.
Any SWG-type game that is created by Lucas Arts will be manipulated, regardless of who the developing company is, by LA to be more Star Warsy. They hold the franchise rights to the game, therefore they can say what goes in and what goes out. If LA doesn't like how the current company develops the game, and the developers won't implement the ideas that LA wants, then LA can then revoke the franchise contract during the end of the term. This is the reason why NGE was even proposed and implemented. So, that's why I can't place all the blame on Smed and SOE... part goes to LA.
2. I highly doubt there will ever be a sequel to SWG, even if people totally stopped playing NGE. And, if there was, I highly doubt that anything would change from the original... especially when LA is basically pullingthe stringson the franchise to manipulate the developers.
And I need the tinfoil hat?Cute... who's being the childish one now? Apparently you are showing your true maturity.
Any SWG-type game that is created by Lucas Arts will be manipulated, regardless of who the developing company is, by LA to be more Star Warsy. They hold the franchise rights to the game, therefore they can say what goes in and what goes out. If LA doesn't like how the current company develops the game, and the developers won't implement the ideas that LA wants, then LA can then revoke the franchise contract during the end of the term. This is the reason why NGE was even proposed and implemented. So, that's why I can't place all the blame on Smed and SOE... part goes to LA.
The NGE was a brainchild entirely of SOE. LA had little if any input contributed. That therein lies the problem. LA's negligence of their intellectual property. Perhaps they were thinking "SOE is the MMO veteran, they know what they are doing" but I don't think that's a valid strategy if they ever do a SW MMO in the future. We know there was little if any real communication between LA and SOE for a good majority of the time this game has been out, so I don't think LA was as involved as somep eople want to say. However this only makes them more guilty, it doesn't absolve them, since star wars is their IP.
2. I highly doubt there will ever be a sequel to SWG, even if people totally stopped playing NGE. And, if there was, I highly doubt that anything would change from the original... especially when LA is basically pullingthe stringson the franchise to manipulate the developers.
And I need the tinfoil hat?Cute... who's being the childish one now? Apparently you are showing your true maturity.
Any SWG-type game that is created by Lucas Arts will be manipulated, regardless of who the developing company is, by LA to be more Star Warsy. They hold the franchise rights to the game, therefore they can say what goes in and what goes out. If LA doesn't like how the current company develops the game, and the developers won't implement the ideas that LA wants, then LA can then revoke the franchise contract during the end of the term. This is the reason why NGE was even proposed and implemented. So, that's why I can't place all the blame on Smed and SOE... part goes to LA.
The NGE was a brainchild entirely of SOE. LA had little if any input contributed. That therein lies the problem. LA's negligence of their intellectual property. Perhaps they were thinking "SOE is the MMO veteran, they know what they are doing" but I don't think that's a valid strategy if they ever do a SW MMO in the future. We know there was little if any real communication between LA and SOE for a good majority of the time this game has been out, so I don't think LA was as involved as somep eople want to say. However this only makes them more guilty, it doesn't absolve them, since star wars is their IP.
See what I mean Ice about the moderation? Its rediculous.
The NGE was a brainchild entirely of SOE. LA had little if any input contributed. That therein lies the problem. LA's negligence of their intellectual property. Perhaps they were thinking "SOE is the MMO veteran, they know what they are doing" but I don't think that's a valid strategy if they ever do a SW MMO in the future. We know there was little if any real communication between LA and SOE for a good majority of the time this game has been out, so I don't think LA was as involved as somep eople want to say. However this only makes them more guilty, it doesn't absolve them, since star wars is their IP.
This is not a concept I can fully support. Frankly, the CU/NGE is practically the definitive list of "Things You Should NEVER Do To A Persistent World Online Game". If SOE was so stupid as to have done all that purely on its own initiative, I don't see how they could have stayed in business this long. And they have not done this across all of their games; while some unpopular or at least controversial changes have been made to EQ and EQ2, it doesn't remotely approach the radical alterations to SWG. The difference? SOE owns the prior 2 games outright, but only rents the Star Wars IP from LucasArts (which is notorious both for heavyhandedness toward any trespassing on their IP, and for allowing garbage games as long as they get paid). The changes were a fundamental betrayal of the players' trust and hugely unpopular, yet they were pushed thru regardless. This tell me that the decisions were made by someone who 1) had the power to make them, and 2) didn't understand the probable consequences to a MMO. SOE fits #1, LA fits both.
I'm not suggesting that LA designed the CU/NGE, but I do strongly disagree that they had little to no input on the results. As the owner of the IP, they will absolutely get their way whenever they wish. It looks to me like the Combat Revamp got derailed after WoW launched:
LA: World of Warcraft is making far more money than SWG; make our game more like that.
SOE: That's a major change at this point. The players wont like--
LA: It's our IP. You do it our way.
SOE: ... Right ...
And later:
LA: Your changes didn't bring WoW numbers; use classes like they do. And Battlefront is really big, so make the combat more like that.
SOE: The players were mad enough last time. This much change will--
LA: Do it or lose the franchise! Anyway, just a fraction of those numbers will more than compensate for losing a few malcontents.
The NGE was a brainchild entirely of SOE. LA had little if any input contributed. That therein lies the problem. LA's negligence of their intellectual property. Perhaps they were thinking "SOE is the MMO veteran, they know what they are doing" but I don't think that's a valid strategy if they ever do a SW MMO in the future. We know there was little if any real communication between LA and SOE for a good majority of the time this game has been out, so I don't think LA was as involved as somep eople want to say. However this only makes them more guilty, it doesn't absolve them, since star wars is their IP.
This is not a concept I can fully support. Frankly, the CU/NGE is practically the definitive list of "Things You Should NEVER Do To A Persistent World Online Game". If SOE was so stupid as to have done all that purely on its own initiative, I don't see how they could have stayed in business this long. And they have not done this across all of their games; while some unpopular or at least controversial changes have been made to EQ and EQ2, it doesn't remotely approach the radical alterations to SWG. The difference? SOE owns the prior 2 games outright, but only rents the Star Wars IP from LucasArts (which is notorious both for heavyhandedness toward any trespassing on their IP, and for allowing garbage games as long as they get paid). The changes were a fundamental betrayal of the players' trust and hugely unpopular, yet they were pushed thru regardless. This tell me that the decisions were made by someone who 1) had the power to make them, and 2) didn't understand the probable consequences to a MMO. SOE fits #1, LA fits both.
I'm not suggesting that LA designed the CU/NGE, but I do strongly disagree that they had little to no input on the results. As the owner of the IP, they will absolutely get their way whenever they wish. It looks to me like the Combat Revamp got derailed after WoW launched:
LA: World of Warcraft is making far more money than SWG; make our game more like that.
SOE: That's a major change at this point. The players wont like--
LA: It's our IP. You do it our way.
SOE: ... Right ...
And later:
LA: Your changes didn't bring WoW numbers; use classes like they do. And Battlefront is really big, so make the combat more like that.
SOE: The players were mad enough last time. This much change will--
LA: Do it or lose the franchise! Anyway, just a fraction of those numbers will more than compensate for losing a few malcontents.
The problem is soe has said that is not true. I don't see why you choose to not believe them when they take credit for it. What is it going to take George Lucas himself to tell you he investigated it and found no evidence? Do you want me to necro the posts where SOE on this board takes credit? You continue to not want to accept soe at face value on this. Why?
The problem is soe has said that is not true. I don't see why you choose to not believe them when they take credit for it. What is it going to take George Lucas himself to tell you he investigated it and found no evidence? Do you want me to necro the posts where SOE on this board takes credit? You continue to not want to accept soe at face value on this. Why?
Because it amounts to an "idiot plot", the sort of movie that completely falls apart unless everyone involved behaves like that they are only firing on 3 neurons. I can much more easily accept the existence of horrendous decisions based on ignorance or a serious misreading of a situation, than on rank stupidity. And the fact that SOE does not do such idiotic things with properties that they wholly own and control, but did with SWG (over which LA holds total veto power) is highly suspicious. Anyway, it's not like SOE has a spotless record for honest sincerity. That they are still running SWG despite the cataclysm may be because of their playing lightning-rod to CYA for LA.
"Quit your whining already, Pre-CU is dead." We are told this constantly, and it is believed that this is somehow an effective argument. However, most of the vets tend to say:
EVEN IF TOMORROW PRE-CU SERVERS (OR CU SERVERS FOR THAT MATTER) WERE INTRODUCED, THE MAJORITY OF VETS WOULD STILL NOT COME BACK.
Why is this? The issue many times has almost NOTHING to do with the gameplay, as it does with the way SOE treated their customers, and engaged in some of the shadiest business practices seen in an MMO to boot. Now some say the past is the past, and it no longer matters.
Nobody would want this to be true more than SOE. Yet when they completed their takeover of Vangaurd (that was entirely predictable from a businessmodel the minute an MMO giant had a limited financial interest in an independent MMO), their CEO felt it neccessary to out of the blue state that he will not make the mistake he made with the NGE. He will not introduce massive changes to the game. He flat out stated they tried that before, and it was a huge mistake, and specifically mentioned the NGE. Smedley was not prompted to state this. Love or hate Smedley, the man has a remarkable candor when he is allowed to speak uncensored. So allow me to give (what I feel) to be a summary of the reasons why people still have such an animus
1.) Their belief that the free market matters, and this is their way of punishing SOE.
Now granted, some people find this dirty, but this is economics 101 people. When someone is driven to a certain point by a company, they will do their part to make sure no business is given to that company. This is why many Vietnam veterans to this day refuse to buy Michelin tires, because they are French, and they believed the French made their fighting the war difficult. it is why Citgo gas is boycotted today by many others, as a form of protestant against the Venezulean regime. It is why people boycotted Coke en masse over New Coke. You get the idea. In an economy that relies upon the free transacation and trade of goods, people believe they are contributing to the educated consumer by telling them about this game, pro or con. The pro side wants people to make a wise investment in this game. The con side wants people to make an investment elsewhere where their money is better spent.
2.) SOE on numerous occasions engaged in "bait and switch" marketing tactics.
And I'm not just talking about the NGE, which most agree was a TEXTBOOK example of bait and switch. An expansion was offered promising rewards for certain professions that SOE knew would not exist a week into the expansion's life. However, they wanted to maximize their profits. However, a serious case could be made the same was done with the original CU. Needless to say, it is now established fact that the planning and implementation phase of the CU suffered a radical change of vision around the release of World of Warcraft. The original documentation of the rebalance demonstrates this, as even the documentation about the upcoming rebalance weeks before the CU launched had nothing in common with the CU. People testing these changes really couldn't say anything thanks to the NDA.
3.) They are willing to sacrifice their existing customers in pursuit of the non-existent but highly touted "silent majority."
We learned with the NGE one of the main things they did was bring in non-players of SWG and ask them what they needed to change to bring them in. This in itself is not a bad marketing tactic. However, this was done almost completely independent of dealing with the existing player community about what they wanted. It is a stated rule of business you work to satisfy your existing consumer base before looking to attract new customers. Especially when those customers number in the hundreds of thousands as they did during the CU.
4.) Contempt for what veterans viewed as fun.
Everyone remembers the SWG dev who found it unbelievable that people would find various parts of the ranger profession fun. (i.e. what is so fun about camping?) This is when one remembers one of Duncan (a poster and anti-NGE one at that)'s sig "SOE knows what you like, you don't!" The very people who were sent to address the problems the critics presented had no clue why they felt the way they did. This speaks of incompetence in the highest, and honest contempt for the playerbase they are trying to court. One also remembers their reaction towards entertainers when the NGE first came out, in essence telling them to shut up and like the NGE.
5.) The fact that after several years, this game is still either in beta, or barely past beta.
Smedley himself admitted the reason the NGE was launched public so fast was not enough people were willing to beta test it. People were then forced to pay to beta test the NGE in (at least) the first few months. SOE also had 2 major changes of the game engine within a year, and if experience dictates it, will do it again, if they believe they can ensnare some mythical audience. Basic major bugs still exist in the game. LOS and collission problems have persisted since the NGE has launched. They still exist. There is still a real problem of lack of content in some areas. In truth, these problems were unacceptable 6 months after launch Pre-CU, but there was enough going for it in other areas that people bit their tongues.
6.) Many see in the CU and NGE a disturbing trend in the progression of the MMO genre.
This could be viewed as an adaptation of Marx's view of history applied to the MMO genre. It is presented as an inevitable force of nature that sandbox games are unworkable, so MMO games must become linear WoW style to truly succeed. That the way to implement a true "WoW-killer" is to copy WoW as closely as possible, rather than applying the principles of what made WoW successful to your game, but still maintaining your own independence. (i.e. how WoW made themselves so successful. They took their existing IP, took a lot of ideas from EQ, but also demonstrated that they were their own game.) We are told this is what the MMO world demands. We disagree, and in a sense could be viewed as standing athrwart MMO history yelling STOP! The progression towards clones of games is neither inevitable nor desireable. Since the Pre-CU demonstrated that this style of game could be successful, and the Post-CUNGE era has demonstrated in stark terms that things are not as inevitable as they seem (as far from gaining customers SOE lost almost 80% of their customer base).
I avoided a lot of the gameplay elements intentionally, because I think even if these were fixed tomorrow, the other problems still persist.
Very, very refreshing. Many thanks to the O.P.
As for the person that said people don't care about this, well you're just wrong--at least when it comes to talking about responsible consumers. People want to know about services before they purchase them; and they want to know about the track record of a company that they are considering doing business with. They also care if hundreds of thousands of people felt lied to and abused by a service provider. They will ask themselves, "wow do I want to give this company my money and make an emotional investment in this virutal experience?" Based on SOE's track record, many people will say "no thanks!"
So a lot of people do care. If you feel a need to be indifferent to these issues for some personal reason, well okay that's your business. However, to generalize the indifference you claim is really just leaving reality behind, kind of a form of denial if you ask me.
I think the folks that dont get it fall into one of two categories...
1. they simply werent there from day 1 launch (or in my case beta stage 2) like we were. They didnt live through it. They werent there for publish 3 when they saw their house with all their items disappear and SOE customer service said sorry, cant replace it. They didnt follow the forums in a vain attempt to find if anyone else had figured out what was going on with the ultra-rare hermit spawns.
or
2. They werent Star Wars fans....real fans. In 1977, I was 8 years old. I'll never ever forget my Dad taking me to see Star Wars. The line was like nothing I had ever seen before or since then. The movie was literally a word-life changing event for many. It was mind-blowing. I left that theatre dreaming of becoming a jedi with my own droids. When the toys came out, I had to own them all. I got a paper route with my sister around the time Empire Strikes Back came out (1981). I cut lawns to earn more money cause i wanted the Hoth Ice world set along with the new toys. I collected the comic books and sealed them like the good collector i was. I duelled my friends with our cheap plastic lightsabers. Star Wars was everything to me and my friends.
When Star Wars Galaxies was announced I couldnt wait. I had played Ultima and EQ1 but didnt care much for them. I followed every rumor, post, word, article about Star Wars Galaxies. There were dozens of fan sites years before the game launched. Planets were already being divided up for planned player cities. Guilds were already plotting their layouts, etc. They hype and anticipation like the movies was nothing like anything any MMO has seen before or since.
I got into the ssecond stage of beta (there ended up being 3 stages, no open beta). I was a diligent tester. I did whatever the devs asked of me. I recall when they added in points of interest and sent us out to find them and report back our thoughts. It was an exciting time. I recall another time when I came across the gungan sacred place. There were two or 3 gungans there offering quests but th last one didnt work. Os I was sending in a report. a minute later a dev spawned his toon in to chat with me !!! We talked, he wanted to know what I thought of the game, etc. I asked about the gungan being broken and he told me that it was unfinished on purpose. he couldnt complete that quest line because the underwater city wasnt ready to be implemented ! Yes thats right, the gungan quests were going to lead to access to an underwater city !!!
Launch day was frustrating and a sign of trouble ahead. Things got worse from there.
The day I quit SWG, I revisited the gungan sacred place one final time. It was a reminder to me of the hope and promise this game once had. The mission was still broken (i believe later they made them NGE compatible and worked). It was a really sad day for me. You see, Star Wars Galaxies wasnt just a game for me and many others. It was a chance to relive my childhood. A chance to relive that warm moment with my Dad who is no longer with me. It was the realization of a dream come true. A fantasy world where I was the good guy with ultimate amazing powers. It was a virtual world for star wars fans everwhere to live and dream in.
I would give almost anything to have star wars back in my life. there are no more movies to look too. There arent any virtual worlds for me to visit. All I find now are linear combat centric games to try and fill the void Galaxies has left in my heart. So far none have been close to filling the void and i doubt any ever will.
SOE treated SWG as though it was just a game to make a few bucks off. They never understood what it really meant to us
Great OP Kevin! but I would go back to a PRECU server this or witnessing the end of SWG by SOE (which I just recently blogged about)are the only two scenarios that would end my triade....forever.
from what a few topics like this that have been posted and MMORPG.com for the most part seem to have let them stay, it's when the fanbois started posting flame comments and there were quite a few posts getting deleted that they have to lock the thread, what else could they do if it's getting flamed to hell like that last topic was. I've reported people on this site before who obviously were trolling and they immediately started deleting the comments made that pissed a lot of people off including me, if this is a veteran forum like I think it is then we should just report posts by fanbois that are obviously trolling, if they don't get dealt with well, let's just say my opinion of them has lowered.
Quoting people doesn't make you clever, in fact, it makes you all the more stupid for not bothering to read the quotes you post in the first place.
That was written and presented clearly enough for anyone to understand, with the possible exception of Nancy MacIntyre of course. That was simply far to much reading for her. Good job!
And to think, that the woman who's dubbed Nancy "Readin is bad m'kay?" McIntyre now is a high paidmember of a company that produce educational stuff.
But anyway, yes a good list.
Altho, personally, one of the "major" things for me, well, except gameplay things like destroying my character, destroying my playstyle, removing my fun and more... Is that they used the excuse of "more Star Warsy" to defend the NGE when they infact turned the game into some meltingpot of Star Wars textures with NO connections whatsoever to Star Wars history, background, lore and continuity.
Basicly they took a Star Wars game, and removed ALL Star Wars, and then said they made it Star Warsy.... *sigh*
Well OP you pretty nailed it with that one. But i have to say. Ill go back to a pre-CU server any day. And i know most of my old guild in SWG would too.
For many of us vets the original game was the best game ever. And nothing out there comes even close.
We lived the greatest saga ever told. Our own.
Just give me 250 creds a CDEF pistol and a melon. And ill be good to go.
Hauken Stormchaser I want pre-CU back Station.com : We got your game Yeah?, Well i want it back!!!
I think the folks that dont get it fall into one of two categories... 1. they simply werent there from day 1 launch (or in my case beta stage 2) like we were. They didnt live through it. They werent there for publish 3 when they saw their house with all their items disappear and SOE customer service said sorry, cant replace it. They didnt follow the forums in a vain attempt to find if anyone else had figured out what was going on with the ultra-rare hermit spawns. or 2. They werent Star Wars fans....real fans. In 1977, I was 8 years old. I'll never ever forget my Dad taking me to see Star Wars. The line was like nothing I had ever seen before or since then. The movie was literally a word-life changing event for many. It was mind-blowing. I left that theatre dreaming of becoming a jedi with my own droids. When the toys came out, I had to own them all. I got a paper route with my sister around the time Empire Strikes Back came out (1981). I cut lawns to earn more money cause i wanted the Hoth Ice world set along with the new toys. I collected the comic books and sealed them like the good collector i was. I duelled my friends with our cheap plastic lightsabers. Star Wars was everything to me and my friends. When Star Wars Galaxies was announced I couldnt wait. I had played Ultima and EQ1 but didnt care much for them. I followed every rumor, post, word, article about Star Wars Galaxies. There were dozens of fan sites years before the game launched. Planets were already being divided up for planned player cities. Guilds were already plotting their layouts, etc. They hype and anticipation like the movies was nothing like anything any MMO has seen before or since. I got into the ssecond stage of beta (there ended up being 3 stages, no open beta). I was a diligent tester. I did whatever the devs asked of me. I recall when they added in points of interest and sent us out to find them and report back our thoughts. It was an exciting time. I recall another time when I came across the gungan sacred place. There were two or 3 gungans there offering quests but th last one didnt work. Os I was sending in a report. a minute later a dev spawned his toon in to chat with me !!! We talked, he wanted to know what I thought of the game, etc. I asked about the gungan being broken and he told me that it was unfinished on purpose. he couldnt complete that quest line because the underwater city wasnt ready to be implemented ! Yes thats right, the gungan quests were going to lead to access to an underwater city !!! Launch day was frustrating and a sign of trouble ahead. Things got worse from there. The day I quit SWG, I revisited the gungan sacred place one final time. It was a reminder to me of the hope and promise this game once had. The mission was still broken (i believe later they made them NGE compatible and worked). It was a really sad day for me. You see, Star Wars Galaxies wasnt just a game for me and many others. It was a chance to relive my childhood. A chance to relive that warm moment with my Dad who is no longer with me. It was the realization of a dream come true. A fantasy world where I was the good guy with ultimate amazing powers. It was a virtual world for star wars fans everwhere to live and dream in. I would give almost anything to have star wars back in my life. there are no more movies to look too. There arent any virtual worlds for me to visit. All I find now are linear combat centric games to try and fill the void Galaxies has left in my heart. So far none have been close to filling the void and i doubt any ever will. SOE treated SWG as though it was just a game to make a few bucks off. They never understood what it really meant to us
Um yeah Star wars was the first Movie i saw as a youngster...And a chance to be what i wanted in the world i grew up on and loved was a dream since i saw said movie..I was 7 then and still enjoy the story as much now as then..For me i was there testing in beta there on the launch day blues(couldnt log in due to high traffic crashes bugs ect) I stuck with SWG through all the changes broken promises bugs ect..When precu was kicking i was having fun and it made me forget about all its 'shortcomings' 'bugs' 'broken professions' and numerous other quirks..The fact i could do what i wanted when i wanted how i wanted was a huge draw for me..When the CU removed some i quit for 2 weeks and then missed it and came back..The NGE how ever changed too much unbalanced my balanced game and removed 90% of what i enjoyed..
I could play it again and probably get back into it but not with the same passion i had from the start.Too much has been removed changed or rechanged back in lesser quality it was before..The game changed the wrong things and broke the right ones.SWG's core hasnt changed much from beta or even day 1..The same bugs, complaints,cries, lack of focus still remain..Except the NGE removed the majority of the games great qualities and replaced them with subpar ones..Granted its not bad if you never experienced the things that were removed..The gameplay and skill system was a major part of the majorities draw to SWG..Now i consider it another hohum same ole same ole game with Star Wars tacked on..Were as before it was the only game i have continuely played for over a year without saying well im bored..
This by far has been one of the best and worst games i have ever played.Soon as i got comfortable with something it got changed..This went on prebeta and post live the game changed constantly..Most of the changes werent ever the core issue of the game(ask many players who quit) You can see every mass player exodus just by which publish that went live under strong protest..The first i could actually see in game was publish 9 then the CU and finally the NGE..Things changed so many times most players just got fed up waiting for their favorite profession to be fixed..Most of the time that ment nerfed to uselessness or broken worse than it was before..
I played through it all based on my love for the Star Wars setting but after the game got buggier and each change worse than before i got tired of paying to be a labrat beta tester..Alot of these changes were never the root cause nore issues at hand..I just wanted content bugs and crashes fixed, and the dreaded lag to get fixed.Instead i got 2 combat downgrades that were never asked for and throw upon me and many like me who hated them..SWG was balanced it was complex and it did allow YOU to do as you pleased or be what you pleased..Now you have a game running on a code built for one thing trying to be something it never was suppose to be..Its now Just like the rest loot level loot somemore run to a ZONED PvP area with 0 risk..
i know most wont read(heck even one of the devs said the NEW crowd had to much to Read) But if you've played since day one or before you have lived through it all..Broken promises based on Things that couldnt or wouldnt be delievered and still never reaching the core problems.If you still think the NGE isnt that bad then i suppose you'll play anything with the Star Wars name attached..For me ill just wait until another game company decides complexity and skills and player options arent the core issues..Its the lies the bugs and the lets make it just like the most popular games!!
I doubt we will ever see another game offering what SWG did based on its history..Too bad that history was self inflected by DEVS who couldnt see past what they thought was the issues..The issues are opinionated and long as the games history..Too bad the potential will never be known.The game is too different and too the same as the rest to spark any intrest for me any longer..It died for me april 2005 and was buried nov 2005..Best of luck to the NGE vets soon your game will change too..Except you'll be the vets asking why?
Comments
Once again MMORPG.com chooses its censorship against the "vocal minority". If telling people they are crying that there favorite toy got taken away isn't blatant trolling I don't know what qualifies.
As my post that got locked stated. There are certain things that NGE posters do that are blantantly inflamatory and need to be stopped. They come into every single thread and post the same 6 comments meant to bait, troll and flame and mmorpg lets them just trash every single thread on this board turning it into us having to respond to the same things over and over and over again. It is frankly ruining this forum.
The OP here responding to my post and I respect his opinion. However, he is different. His title alone indicates what he posts is not likely to be censored by other staffers. It is us regular posters. Some of us who have received bans for putting WIDELY used internet puns in posts. Whose posts get locked, deleted and don't even get the common descency of a reason. So you'll pardon my distaste and pleasure at the moderators. Posters who support the NGE get to troll away over here and I am sick and tired of it. Maybe you don't think its a big deal. Maybe it doesn't bother you. It bothers alot of people like me.
I'd have started a new topic on this matter but it would be locked since I started it apparently. I tried to create a topic on this and it got locked. Sorry but this is a real pet peeve of mine.
Problem is, as soon as you say
"EVEN IF TOMORROW PRE-CU SERVERS (OR CU SERVERS FOR THAT MATTER) WERE INTRODUCED, THE MAJORITY OF VETS WOULD STILL NOT COME BACK."
you're out. Why should anyone take interest in you anymore? SOE sure as hell wont, because you just declared there's no way you'll ever pay them money again, and all that you are left to be by making further posts concerning the game is a troll.
Would you not be interested in hearing the rest?
Only if your a blind devotee of Company X.
But, I have seen a lot of con-NGE vets who have been taking such attitude, as in "only con-NGE vets allowed in here", and I'm kind of ticked off about it.
The trolling comes from both sides... I have seen it. And, I read your post that got locked... you were basically trolling yourself. The message conveyed by the "Please stop..." post was that you want this forum to be only for the vets that hate NGE. How can you basically speak for ALL vets and say that you want the pro-NGE people to stop posting? Not every vet follows your same beliefs. This forum is called the "SWG veteran refugee", therefore ALL vets should be allowed to voice their opinion, not just the complainers.
1. The problem is, every company is going to lie, cheat, steal, etc... I have seen it with Mythic, EA, SOE, and many non videogame makers. If you think otherwise, then you are niave. However, SOE has to tred lightly... they know that the last time they did something drastically, they suffered BIG time. Anyways, I do not place all the blame on SOE for the NGE debacle... a lot of it goes to LA. I personally liked some of Pre-CU, but I thought the combat portion was broken. NGE's combat has flaws, but I view it to be more balanced than Pre-CU's combat system. Specifically removing the HAM system that made 2H Swordsmen, Riflemen, and anyone who had a mind DoT king due to normally unhealable mind.
2. I highly doubt there will ever be a sequel to SWG, even if people totally stopped playing NGE. And, if there was, I highly doubt that anything would change from the original... especially when LA is basically pulling the strings on the franchise to manipulate the developers.
Personally, I believe SWG is going in the right direction atm. It's not perfect... in some aspects it's not as good as Pre-CU, but it's nowhere near as horrid as some individuals make it out to be. And, the only way Smed gets fired, or openly apologizes, is if the board of directors deems it necessary... and I believe that they probably had more to do with the NGE (potential profits) rather than Smed. Not to say that Smed wasn't a part of this (he was), but he doesn't merit all the blame for the NGE debacle at the beginning.
I'm not here to convert anyone... I'm just replying with my beliefs on the question I was asked.
No the problem is that the NGE removed 80% of what we loved of the game, didn't give anything back, and wasn't justifiable with anything but "we got greedy" in the first place. There was no reason for it.
With all due respect, I wonder if you even wrote what I said. In a free market economy where word of mouth can influence purchasing, then indeed, people should make their voices heard. To do so is not "crying."
Furthermore, like I gave in the last reason, I honestly think something bigger is at work here, that is more about the state of the MMO market in general than one particular game. SWG just happens to be symbolic of it.
Who says my interest is in playing SWG again? Rather, it was to explain why the "the NGE is here to stay, move on" mentality is false. As I noted in the final point, there's something larger at work here than the NGE, mainly the reasoning behind it, that invites disaster. Also, I like to engender discussion on various aspects of gameplay in forums, not just for specific games, but the MMO community in general. Also because it gave me a way to lead into a future column I'm doing on the "inevitability" argument I summarized in my final point.
So if you really care for my reasons
those are it.
The trolling comes from both sides... I have seen it. And, I read your post that got locked... you were basically trolling yourself. The message conveyed by the "Please stop..." post was that you want this forum to be only for the vets that hate NGE. How can you basically speak for ALL vets and say that you want the pro-NGE people to stop posting? Not every vet follows your same beliefs. This forum is called the "SWG veteran refugee", therefore ALL vets should be allowed to voice their opinion, not just the complainers.
I never once said I want this board for anything other then its stated purpose. My message was simple, stop with the six comments that are just inflamatory snide little comments. Just as your little snide smart alec comment at the end.
As for your other side comment. It's so childish it doesn't even warrant a response. What is this first grade. Teacher he did it too! If you have somethings the trolls are repeatingly saying on the NGE forum feel free to ask them to Please Stop...
1. The problem is, every company is going to lie, cheat, steal, etc... I have seen it with Mythic, EA, SOE, and many non videogame makers. If you think otherwise, then you are niave. However, SOE has to tred lightly... they know that the last time they did something drastically, they suffered BIG time. Anyways, I do not place all the blame on SOE for the NGE debacle... a lot of it goes to LA. I personally liked some of Pre-CU, but I thought the combat portion was broken. NGE's combat has flaws, but I view it to be more balanced than Pre-CU's combat system. Specifically removing the HAM system that made 2H Swordsmen, Riflemen, and anyone who had a mind DoT king due to normally unhealable mind.
2. I highly doubt there will ever be a sequel to SWG, even if people totally stopped playing NGE. And, if there was, I highly doubt that anything would change from the original... especially when LA is basically pulling the strings on the franchise to manipulate the developers.
Personally, I believe SWG is going in the right direction atm. It's not perfect... in some aspects it's not as good as Pre-CU, but it's nowhere near as horrid as some individuals make it out to be. And, the only way Smed gets fired, or openly apologizes, is if the board of directors deems it necessary... and I believe that they probably had more to do with the NGE (potential profits) rather than Smed. Not to say that Smed wasn't a part of this (he was), but he doesn't merit all the blame for the NGE debacle at the beginning.
I'm not here to convert anyone... I'm just replying with my beliefs on the question I was asked.
And I need the tinfoil hat?
The trolling comes from both sides... I have seen it. And, I read your post that got locked... you were basically trolling yourself. The message conveyed by the "Please stop..." post was that you want this forum to be only for the vets that hate NGE. How can you basically speak for ALL vets and say that you want the pro-NGE people to stop posting? Not every vet follows your same beliefs. This forum is called the "SWG veteran refugee", therefore ALL vets should be allowed to voice their opinion, not just the complainers.
I never once said I want this board for anything other then its stated purpose. My message was simple, stop with the six comments that are just inflamatory snide little comments. Just as your little snide smart alec comment at the end.
As for your other side comment. It's so childish it doesn't even warrant a response. What is this first grade. Teacher he did it too! If you have somethings the trolls are repeatingly saying on the NGE forum feel free to ask them to Please Stop...
Oh no... you are just complaining about how the mmorpg.com moderators are basically targeting the NGE-hating vets by not allowing them to post what they want to post, while allowing pro-NGE vets to post what they want to post. Yet, the problem was that your message was basically telling the pro-NGE'rs to get off this forum. Under your post, that got locked, http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/132192"Please Stop asking us former veterans to:
...
5. Posting how great swg is doing in the Vet area.
...
Answers why:
...
5. We don't like the NGE version. If it had wow's numbers most of us would still not play it. "
Basically from that exact quote, you are telling the pro-NGE'rs to not give their opinion of the game one bit. Thus, telling them to basically get out. Therefore, the rest of the posts were mainly other NGE haters, with a few pro-NGE'rs. This turned into a flaming match, which then became locked. So, it wasn't you (except the statements you made at the original post).. just the rest of the replies that made it become locked.
Any SWG-type game that is created by Lucas Arts will be manipulated, regardless of who the developing company is, by LA to be more Star Warsy. They hold the franchise rights to the game, therefore they can say what goes in and what goes out. If LA doesn't like how the current company develops the game, and the developers won't implement the ideas that LA wants, then LA can then revoke the franchise contract during the end of the term. This is the reason why NGE was even proposed and implemented. So, that's why I can't place all the blame on Smed and SOE... part goes to LA.
Any SWG-type game that is created by Lucas Arts will be manipulated, regardless of who the developing company is, by LA to be more Star Warsy. They hold the franchise rights to the game, therefore they can say what goes in and what goes out. If LA doesn't like how the current company develops the game, and the developers won't implement the ideas that LA wants, then LA can then revoke the franchise contract during the end of the term. This is the reason why NGE was even proposed and implemented. So, that's why I can't place all the blame on Smed and SOE... part goes to LA.
The NGE was a brainchild entirely of SOE. LA had little if any input contributed. That therein lies the problem. LA's negligence of their intellectual property. Perhaps they were thinking "SOE is the MMO veteran, they know what they are doing" but I don't think that's a valid strategy if they ever do a SW MMO in the future. We know there was little if any real communication between LA and SOE for a good majority of the time this game has been out, so I don't think LA was as involved as somep eople want to say. However this only makes them more guilty, it doesn't absolve them, since star wars is their IP.
Any SWG-type game that is created by Lucas Arts will be manipulated, regardless of who the developing company is, by LA to be more Star Warsy. They hold the franchise rights to the game, therefore they can say what goes in and what goes out. If LA doesn't like how the current company develops the game, and the developers won't implement the ideas that LA wants, then LA can then revoke the franchise contract during the end of the term. This is the reason why NGE was even proposed and implemented. So, that's why I can't place all the blame on Smed and SOE... part goes to LA.
The NGE was a brainchild entirely of SOE. LA had little if any input contributed. That therein lies the problem. LA's negligence of their intellectual property. Perhaps they were thinking "SOE is the MMO veteran, they know what they are doing" but I don't think that's a valid strategy if they ever do a SW MMO in the future. We know there was little if any real communication between LA and SOE for a good majority of the time this game has been out, so I don't think LA was as involved as somep eople want to say. However this only makes them more guilty, it doesn't absolve them, since star wars is their IP.
See what I mean Ice about the moderation? Its rediculous.
I'm not suggesting that LA designed the CU/NGE, but I do strongly disagree that they had little to no input on the results. As the owner of the IP, they will absolutely get their way whenever they wish. It looks to me like the Combat Revamp got derailed after WoW launched:
LA: World of Warcraft is making far more money than SWG; make our game more like that.
SOE: That's a major change at this point. The players wont like--
LA: It's our IP. You do it our way.
SOE: ... Right ...
And later:
LA: Your changes didn't bring WoW numbers; use classes like they do. And Battlefront is really big, so make the combat more like that.
SOE: The players were mad enough last time. This much change will--
LA: Do it or lose the franchise! Anyway, just a fraction of those numbers will more than compensate for losing a few malcontents.
I'm not suggesting that LA designed the CU/NGE, but I do strongly disagree that they had little to no input on the results. As the owner of the IP, they will absolutely get their way whenever they wish. It looks to me like the Combat Revamp got derailed after WoW launched:
LA: World of Warcraft is making far more money than SWG; make our game more like that.
SOE: That's a major change at this point. The players wont like--
LA: It's our IP. You do it our way.
SOE: ... Right ...
And later:
LA: Your changes didn't bring WoW numbers; use classes like they do. And Battlefront is really big, so make the combat more like that.
SOE: The players were mad enough last time. This much change will--
LA: Do it or lose the franchise! Anyway, just a fraction of those numbers will more than compensate for losing a few malcontents.
The problem is soe has said that is not true. I don't see why you choose to not believe them when they take credit for it. What is it going to take George Lucas himself to tell you he investigated it and found no evidence? Do you want me to necro the posts where SOE on this board takes credit? You continue to not want to accept soe at face value on this. Why?
Why is this? The issue many times has almost NOTHING to do with the gameplay, as it does with the way SOE treated their customers, and engaged in some of the shadiest business practices seen in an MMO to boot. Now some say the past is the past, and it no longer matters.
Nobody would want this to be true more than SOE. Yet when they completed their takeover of Vangaurd (that was entirely predictable from a businessmodel the minute an MMO giant had a limited financial interest in an independent MMO), their CEO felt it neccessary to out of the blue state that he will not make the mistake he made with the NGE. He will not introduce massive changes to the game. He flat out stated they tried that before, and it was a huge mistake, and specifically mentioned the NGE. Smedley was not prompted to state this. Love or hate Smedley, the man has a remarkable candor when he is allowed to speak uncensored. So allow me to give (what I feel) to be a summary of the reasons why people still have such an animus
1.) Their belief that the free market matters, and this is their way of punishing SOE.
2.) SOE on numerous occasions engaged in "bait and switch" marketing tactics.
3.) They are willing to sacrifice their existing customers in pursuit of the non-existent but highly touted "silent majority."
4.) Contempt for what veterans viewed as fun.
5.) The fact that after several years, this game is still either in beta, or barely past beta.
6.) Many see in the CU and NGE a disturbing trend in the progression of the MMO genre.
I avoided a lot of the gameplay elements intentionally, because I think even if these were fixed tomorrow, the other problems still persist.
Very, very refreshing. Many thanks to the O.P.
As for the person that said people don't care about this, well you're just wrong--at least when it comes to talking about responsible consumers. People want to know about services before they purchase them; and they want to know about the track record of a company that they are considering doing business with. They also care if hundreds of thousands of people felt lied to and abused by a service provider. They will ask themselves, "wow do I want to give this company my money and make an emotional investment in this virutal experience?" Based on SOE's track record, many people will say "no thanks!"
So a lot of people do care. If you feel a need to be indifferent to these issues for some personal reason, well okay that's your business. However, to generalize the indifference you claim is really just leaving reality behind, kind of a form of denial if you ask me.
Arc
I think the folks that dont get it fall into one of two categories...
1. they simply werent there from day 1 launch (or in my case beta stage 2) like we were. They didnt live through it. They werent there for publish 3 when they saw their house with all their items disappear and SOE customer service said sorry, cant replace it. They didnt follow the forums in a vain attempt to find if anyone else had figured out what was going on with the ultra-rare hermit spawns.
or
2. They werent Star Wars fans....real fans. In 1977, I was 8 years old. I'll never ever forget my Dad taking me to see Star Wars. The line was like nothing I had ever seen before or since then. The movie was literally a word-life changing event for many. It was mind-blowing. I left that theatre dreaming of becoming a jedi with my own droids. When the toys came out, I had to own them all. I got a paper route with my sister around the time Empire Strikes Back came out (1981). I cut lawns to earn more money cause i wanted the Hoth Ice world set along with the new toys. I collected the comic books and sealed them like the good collector i was. I duelled my friends with our cheap plastic lightsabers. Star Wars was everything to me and my friends.
When Star Wars Galaxies was announced I couldnt wait. I had played Ultima and EQ1 but didnt care much for them. I followed every rumor, post, word, article about Star Wars Galaxies. There were dozens of fan sites years before the game launched. Planets were already being divided up for planned player cities. Guilds were already plotting their layouts, etc. They hype and anticipation like the movies was nothing like anything any MMO has seen before or since.
I got into the ssecond stage of beta (there ended up being 3 stages, no open beta). I was a diligent tester. I did whatever the devs asked of me. I recall when they added in points of interest and sent us out to find them and report back our thoughts. It was an exciting time. I recall another time when I came across the gungan sacred place. There were two or 3 gungans there offering quests but th last one didnt work. Os I was sending in a report. a minute later a dev spawned his toon in to chat with me !!! We talked, he wanted to know what I thought of the game, etc. I asked about the gungan being broken and he told me that it was unfinished on purpose. he couldnt complete that quest line because the underwater city wasnt ready to be implemented ! Yes thats right, the gungan quests were going to lead to access to an underwater city !!!
Launch day was frustrating and a sign of trouble ahead. Things got worse from there.
The day I quit SWG, I revisited the gungan sacred place one final time. It was a reminder to me of the hope and promise this game once had. The mission was still broken (i believe later they made them NGE compatible and worked). It was a really sad day for me. You see, Star Wars Galaxies wasnt just a game for me and many others. It was a chance to relive my childhood. A chance to relive that warm moment with my Dad who is no longer with me. It was the realization of a dream come true. A fantasy world where I was the good guy with ultimate amazing powers. It was a virtual world for star wars fans everwhere to live and dream in.
I would give almost anything to have star wars back in my life. there are no more movies to look too. There arent any virtual worlds for me to visit. All I find now are linear combat centric games to try and fill the void Galaxies has left in my heart. So far none have been close to filling the void and i doubt any ever will.
SOE treated SWG as though it was just a game to make a few bucks off. They never understood what it really meant to us
Great OP Kevin! but I would go back to a PRECU server this or witnessing the end of SWG by SOE (which I just recently blogged about)are the only two scenarios that would end my triade....forever.
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Quoting people doesn't make you clever, in fact, it makes you all the more stupid for not bothering to read the quotes you post in the first place.
And to think, that the woman who's dubbed Nancy "Readin is bad m'kay?" McIntyre now is a high paidmember of a company that produce educational stuff.
But anyway, yes a good list.
Altho, personally, one of the "major" things for me, well, except gameplay things like destroying my character, destroying my playstyle, removing my fun and more... Is that they used the excuse of "more Star Warsy" to defend the NGE when they infact turned the game into some meltingpot of Star Wars textures with NO connections whatsoever to Star Wars history, background, lore and continuity.
Basicly they took a Star Wars game, and removed ALL Star Wars, and then said they made it Star Warsy.... *sigh*
For many of us vets the original game was the best game ever. And nothing out there comes even close.
We lived the greatest saga ever told. Our own.
Just give me 250 creds a CDEF pistol and a melon. And ill be good to go.
Hauken Stormchaser
I want pre-CU back
Station.com : We got your game
Yeah?, Well i want it back!!!
Um yeah Star wars was the first Movie i saw as a youngster...And a chance to be what i wanted in the world i grew up on and loved was a dream since i saw said movie..I was 7 then and still enjoy the story as much now as then..For me i was there testing in beta there on the launch day blues(couldnt log in due to high traffic crashes bugs ect) I stuck with SWG through all the changes broken promises bugs ect..When precu was kicking i was having fun and it made me forget about all its 'shortcomings' 'bugs' 'broken professions' and numerous other quirks..The fact i could do what i wanted when i wanted how i wanted was a huge draw for me..When the CU removed some i quit for 2 weeks and then missed it and came back..The NGE how ever changed too much unbalanced my balanced game and removed 90% of what i enjoyed..
I could play it again and probably get back into it but not with the same passion i had from the start.Too much has been removed changed or rechanged back in lesser quality it was before..The game changed the wrong things and broke the right ones.SWG's core hasnt changed much from beta or even day 1..The same bugs, complaints,cries, lack of focus still remain..Except the NGE removed the majority of the games great qualities and replaced them with subpar ones..Granted its not bad if you never experienced the things that were removed..The gameplay and skill system was a major part of the majorities draw to SWG..Now i consider it another hohum same ole same ole game with Star Wars tacked on..Were as before it was the only game i have continuely played for over a year without saying well im bored..
This by far has been one of the best and worst games i have ever played.Soon as i got comfortable with something it got changed..This went on prebeta and post live the game changed constantly..Most of the changes werent ever the core issue of the game(ask many players who quit) You can see every mass player exodus just by which publish that went live under strong protest..The first i could actually see in game was publish 9 then the CU and finally the NGE..Things changed so many times most players just got fed up waiting for their favorite profession to be fixed..Most of the time that ment nerfed to uselessness or broken worse than it was before..
I played through it all based on my love for the Star Wars setting but after the game got buggier and each change worse than before i got tired of paying to be a labrat beta tester..Alot of these changes were never the root cause nore issues at hand..I just wanted content bugs and crashes fixed, and the dreaded lag to get fixed.Instead i got 2 combat downgrades that were never asked for and throw upon me and many like me who hated them..SWG was balanced it was complex and it did allow YOU to do as you pleased or be what you pleased..Now you have a game running on a code built for one thing trying to be something it never was suppose to be..Its now Just like the rest loot level loot somemore run to a ZONED PvP area with 0 risk..
i know most wont read(heck even one of the devs said the NEW crowd had to much to Read) But if you've played since day one or before you have lived through it all..Broken promises based on Things that couldnt or wouldnt be delievered and still never reaching the core problems.If you still think the NGE isnt that bad then i suppose you'll play anything with the Star Wars name attached..For me ill just wait until another game company decides complexity and skills and player options arent the core issues..Its the lies the bugs and the lets make it just like the most popular games!!
I doubt we will ever see another game offering what SWG did based on its history..Too bad that history was self inflected by DEVS who couldnt see past what they thought was the issues..The issues are opinionated and long as the games history..Too bad the potential will never be known.The game is too different and too the same as the rest to spark any intrest for me any longer..It died for me april 2005 and was buried nov 2005..Best of luck to the NGE vets soon your game will change too..Except you'll be the vets asking why?