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goons reply to CCP
cosy
Member UncommonPosts: 3,228
http://goonfleet.com/reply_to_CCP.html
This is a response to CCP's DevBlog located at http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=472 in which we will address CCP's responses, what they didn't say and also respond to the allegations that they make.Dear CCP,
It's nice to see such a public and indepth response to the allegations that were brought forward rather than the usual quiet response of "nothing to see here, move along". If your response to the previous set of allegations had been this public and this indepth then perhaps the perception of your company would have changed from what it is now, and that's really the issue here, the perception of impropriety.
It doesn't matter if your hands are clean now or not, the fact remains that hands were caught in the cookie jar and the response to those allegations was lackluster at best, resulting in the perception that your company is supporting certain entities over others. You have done much to address this perception with your response to the recent set of allegations but this is tempered by your backhanded comments towards GoonFleet and you still have a long way to go.
Let us now address your response to the first issue, a CCP developer joining a GoonSwarm corporation. You claim the dev was responding to a petition that was filed by a DS1 member over a POS bug and we accept this. In fact we suggested that this could be the very reason however the CEO of the corporation does not recall filing this petition, nor could anybody else in his corporation recall filing the petition so a second petition was filed asking for the reason the CCP developer joined the corporation.
This petition was closed without comment and this what set off alarm bells and is something that you did not address in your response. Had a GM responsed with "A petition was opened due to issue X and the developer took these actions to correct the issue" then this would have been a non-issue. Had Sharkbait himself sent a corporate email saying "I joined to fix issue X that was petitioned" this would have been a non-issue. What happened was a developer joined the corporation for no reason that that the CEO knew of and when the CEO attempted to get answers he was met with a wall of silence. So the question remains, why was the petition asking for the reason Sharkbait joined the corporation closed without comment? Why did Sharkbait himself not send an EVEMail as others have indicated they received in the past when this happened? Either of these actions would have quelled any resulting outcry over these actions.
We are pleased that CCP acknowledges that developers joining and leaving corporations can be misconstrued and addressed this in the dev blog by stating "Joining and leaving corporations has long been a tool GMs and developers alike utilize when investigating petitions or bug reports. As this has [sic]deemed unacceptable to some of our players, we will notify the petitioning corporation via EVEmail if this is necessary.". We would like to add this such an email should always be necessary when a CCP employee or volunteer joins a corporation or takes any actions that may result in the perception that something nefarious is taking place. We would even suggest that CCP consider creating a 'Corporate Petition' system where petitions that are filed by individuals on behalf of a corporation (such as for POS bugs or corporate BPO issues, etc) are viewable by all directors of the corporation to avoid similiar issues in the future.
As to the allegations of rigging, you say none occurs while we have seen differently in game, or was the ability for an alliance to suddenly have freighters worth of materials onsite to complete a scavenger event to claim a mothership merely coincidence? While this may not be your intention your reliance on outside volunteers compromises your integrity in this. You cannot monitor their communications. You cannot determine that they aren't feeding information to their friends or other entities based on their personal bias. You are relying on unpaid volunteers without any checks that we are aware of in place to stop the flow of information outward. Your response, as always is "there is no evidence to support these claims" despite unlikely response times or people just happening to be in the right place at the right time. In this it is your word against others and unfortunately your word holds little value at this point.
On the ISD firing we consider the entire thing to be highly suspect. You claim there were multiple complaints against him but the timing of the entire thing stinks. He claims he was using standard commands to observe the battle, BoB members claim he was bumping them repeatedly. A BoB member claims to have an MSN contact for a developer, minutes later a developer is on the ISD IRC screaming at the reporter. 3 hours later the reporter is banned. You never did address the IRC incident or the timing. You managed to just deflect the allegations under a shield of "we had complaints and this was coming". Never mind the timing, or the perception surrounding the allegations or the perception of a cover-up. Your response does little to remove the doubts that exist. Those who believe that the ISD firing was justified will continue to believe so. Those that believe that there is something more sinister here will continue to believe that. Little has been done here to convince either side.
Now we come to the allegations that this was a deliberately co-ordinated attempt to smear CCP. This is unequivocably false. Originally we were going to post about these issues on the EVE forum to bring them to light and then wait for CCP's response. CCP's response to this was to delete the letter. Due to the way issues in the past were handled we do not currently have any faith in the IA department to properly investigate and address issues without the greater pressure of the EVE user base calling for these investigations. We attempted to bring about this pressure through the exposure of the issues and CCP's response was to simply delete the thread. Had a moderator simply locked the thread with a response saying "We are investigating these issues and will respond accordingly" then that would have been the end of it because at least the issues would be in the public eye and could not be buried.
Once it became clear that CCP was going to attempt to bury the issue through deleting the thread our members responded via the only avenue open to them, they made posts. They posted links to the open letter highlighting the accusations. They told people about it in game and our members also brought it to the attention of outside media through the use of Slashdot and Digg. By throwing such a bright spotlight on the issue we did something that an email to the IA department would not do. We forced CCP to respond in a swift and public manner and for this we make no apologies.
There was no premeditated plan to bring CCP down, despite comments in the dev blog to the contrary, or CCP's insinuations that they are reading our private forums. To state that simply because some people who don't normally post on their boards did that there was some form of co-ordinated "attack" is just silly. It was not the weight of the posts that brought the forums offline as was evident by the fact that both the forums and the rest of the systems remained responsive. CCP chose to offline the forums when it became apparent they would not be able to moderate the accusations away. As most of the posts were simple links back to the open letter we would have in fact be attempting to DoS ourselves with traffic, which was obviously not the case.
We, GoonFleet, love the game that CCP has created. EVE Online is something unique in the world of MMO's. It is a player driven game that has real consequences to combat. It is an economic simulator of unparalleled complexity. It allows players to participate according to his/her play style from being in combat to fueling POSes to building items for the war effort. It is this kind of open ended game play and lack of boundaries that draw us to this game. It is for these reasons that we truly do want to see EVE succeed and grow for many years to come.
What is disliked about the game is the perceived bias in the game. Even if no bias is present the actions of your developers and of various community members creates the perception of bias and it is this perception that you need to correct. BoB members admit to having CCP members on the MSN contact lists. CCP developers socialize with BoB members in other areas. The lackluster response to the T2 BPO scandal. Petition responses changing based on the GM that responds and the situation. All of these contribute to a perception that the game is biased and perception is everything. CCP needs to address these perception issues, especially since employee fraternization with other alliances is apparently forbidden.
I will now tell you the story of a GM, GM Eldini. Several members of GoonFleet attended the FanFest in 2006 and while there they befriended a GM by the name of 'Eldini'. This GM possessed the same sarcastic humor and wit that appeals to Goons and was invited to join our forums and partake in discussions that take place on our forums of which only a small percentage actually deals with EVE directly. After the to be expected period of "hey, a GM, cool" question and answer round, he settled in and was readily accepted as just another 'goon'. From the beginning it was made clear by the directorate that GM Eldini was just there to socialize and that any goon attempting to get any special treatment from the association, even in jest, would be banned. We wanted to protect both ourselves and GM Eldini from any possible accusations of bias. This relationship lasted for about a week before GM Eldini indicated that he was forced to remove himself from the Goon community and, while it was never stated, it was implied that his employment was threatened over the relationship. Apparently BoB can socialize with CCP employees but heaven forbid that another corporation or alliance create a friendship with a CCP employee.
Either CCP employees need to remove all BoB contacts and place them on ignore or CCP should publish the MSN contacts for all members to be able to have a direct line to the developers. No Developer, Employee or ISD member should be able to respond to any petition or take any action for or against any corporation their characters are members of. GM's need to all get on the same page on their responses and policies. It seems that when there is an unexpected result of a game mechanic that benefits GoonFleet, we are told it's an exploit. If an opposing corporation does it and we petition it we are told that it is allowed. We have begun compiling examples of these conflicting responses so that a record can be established. All of these actions are what contribute to the perception and feeling of bias from within CCP.
EVE is a remarkable accomplishment by CCP. The game they have created is truly a wonder and they should be proud of it. But there are issues that while not directly releated to game play are related to the game and CCP needs to take greater steps to clean up its perceived bias, to straighten out GM responses and to improve its customer service. We are not asking for a day by day log of everything that goes on in CCP, but we are asking that CCP take further steps to increase its transparency when these issues are brought up such as not deleting public accusations but instead keeping them public and addressing them. Until the perception of bias goes away and steps are taken to make sure it doesn't come back we will continue to make sure that issues are brought into the light, that issues cannot be buried and that all of the member base of EVE is made aware that these issues exist.
- GoonFleet
BestSigEver :P
Comments
Bury it or not, coverups do happen and yea if your unpleased with EVE as you are, quit playing and find a game that aint corrupted, thats what most other people do.
Seriously you can't do nothing , its their game, their rules, that GM or Dev or whatever he was who affiliated him self with BoB is probally related to the director of CCP like a son or something or a its his uncle, _W_ really and DoS your self ?, you wouldnt have to do that, they could do it with their capacity if they wanted to
List of SOE lies
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Give me about 20 minutes with VB and Outlook express and I can present the exact same information that they did.
Releasing the petitioners name would have been a good idea imo.
Just cause CCP says a petition was filed doesnt mean there was one... however it also doesnt mean it didnt happen either.
In a he said she said, the dev wins.
Im surprised that no action was taken against goons personally, if the campaign was affecting CCP profits, Id figure a mass banning of the Goon's posters would be one of their first steps after the 1000+ posts... but then again that wouldnt help their credibility much hehe.
Fight the power Goon's and give them hell, alot of ppl belive in your cause.
CCp should end as company is they dont kick out the BoD crew employees.
--------------------
Member of Coreli corp.
We have the boosters you crave!
Coulda...woulda...shoulda....
that's all I see. In the one and only cheating incident, the T20 incident, a "thing" was done that everyone could get a hold of, put a finger on. The transfer of a Tech II BPO.
In this latest "incident" all I see is coulda...woulda...shoulda... There is no "thing" anyone could tag as cheating. It's all he could have done this...they should have done that...they would have done something. Every thing they claim to be CCP cheating is really "we don't like the way you treat us". So that is now the standard to judge cheating?
Sharkbait joining, granting permission, fixing a bug and then leaving the corp. What is the cheat? Goon has yet to make a claim. All they claim is "you didn't tell us". So that is cheating?
CCP deleted our petition. How is that cheating, even more so since it's not true. You don't like the way they run their petition system, but it does not rise to the level of cheating.
They fired someone. That's cheating? It is really a matter, a private matter between CCP and the person they fired.
Then to top it all off, after days of discussion, you were proven to be wrong and to save face you lump it all up and say CCP's conduct is proof of corruption. WHAT?!?! all it prove is you don't like the way they run their game. A far cry from corruption.
Coulda....woulda...shoulda.... that's all I see.
since goons claims to have a few laywers in there midts they shoud have kown better than, to attack a companys reputation in RL, its a class A job of geting sue and liveing in debt the next 20 years.
bye bye goons and goonriddens to see you gone
all that could be avoided in some way yes
eve-o mod's deleted/closed first threads made by goons - thx for "nazi" moding - (same happen whit the thread about change on goons leadership)
all that made goons to make /spread the word & /spam @ Internet
and now CCP say u give us a bad name bla bla
BestSigEver :P
-iCeh
Why is it need adressing? All I see is CCP getting free unpaid bughunters. Because if it's true that's what it is used for.
There are benifits to having the contact for CCP. Not all is bad. You have to prove not assume that BoB gets unfair advantage from this for it to be bad.
Coulda...woulda...shoulda...
Now is he a spunk stain? Probably. But smack talk happens in many from in many ways, especially in a highly charged compitition that goes on in EvE.
iceh imo the only way to get that is if put some keyloggers on all CCP work computer (to late)
that cant be done on private pc
and dunno if ccp can control the apartments where a part of ccp employers live even if ccp is the real owned of that apartments
BestSigEver :P
lol there is just no end to this silly drama im thinking every coupla weeks someone's gonna cry about something new. I feel sorry for anyone who has all the spare time to read the testimony of that goon why doesnt he just quit the game and move on with his life
too many bitter vets posting here messing up the boards with all this nonsense and heresay
Now this might now affect the game population as a whole, but it will definitely put a damper on increasing the population in the future. I have several times thought about going back to the game and every time something like this comes up and makes me think about having anything to do with CCP again. I have in the past had to deal with them over issues, such as once being hacked into from their own irc chat to having technical issues and overall can say that they treated me very well. Aside from the hacking, which I had to prove by going through a circus shows worth of hoops and jumps, the support team is very good. Now though, I have seen little to nothing of the sort from the Event team, which from the beginning seemed to benefit only the large well known corps (even to the point of seeing reports from day 1 of certain corps getting items and events at times of the day that were kind of fishy). I have seen since beta corporations benefitted by simply being somewhere that NO ONE would have thought to be for events, or spawns, etc. Call this coincidence or rigging, but the results are there.
CCP should fess up to any and all connections to player corporations and remove themselves from said corporations. The excuse that they NEED to be in these corporations for game development is totally ludicrous and doesn't hold any water for people who have been in this industry longer than some of the developers have even been out of primary school. Many people would flock back to the game if CCP would just own up to their cheating and involvements because the game is a great game (if a tad tedious at times) and one of the best as far as retention that any I have seen since the days of muds.
Why is it need adressing? All I see is CCP getting free unpaid bughunters. Because if it's true that's what it is used for.
There are benifits to having the contact for CCP. Not all is bad. You have to prove not assume that BoB gets unfair advantage from this for it to be bad.
Coulda...woulda...shoulda...
Now is he a spunk stain? Probably. But smack talk happens in many from in many ways, especially in a highly charged compitition that goes on in EvE.
The way in which the guy spoke to an ISD member was more than just smack talk, it was down-right disrespectful. It seems to me that the reason he said it, is because he knew he could get away with it, which has clearly happened.
The guy was acting 'high and mighty' to an ISD. Personally, I've always believe in never biting the hand that feeds me. This guy sounds as if he is above that, like he has CCP in the palm of his hand. If I worked for CCP, and someone was acting in that manner to my employee's he would be banned immediately.
I've always liked CCP, and will continue playing this game. But the way they allow themselves to be whipped by some little random shut-in in public, makes me lose a little respect for CCP.
-iCeh
So let me get this straight...
CCP is going to sue a bunch of people they invited, and willingly took money from, just because they didn't like what they said?
On what grounds? "Attacking a company's reputation?" If they are suffering such anguish over this, then why the heck haven't they just refused payment from these people, and distance themselves from the cause of their problem?
A court of law can't solve CCP's problem, when CCP is unwilling to solve its problem with the tools it has.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
So let me get this straight...
CCP is going to sue a bunch of people they invited, and willingly took money from, just because they didn't like what they said? Actually they are not all they said was there leagal department was 'looking into it'. Which aparently is a standard prcedure for any company when stuff like this happens to a company.
On what grounds? "Attacking a company's reputation?" More like malitious slander but int he end i feel that this may not be the case in this occurance. If they are suffering such anguish over this, then why the heck haven't they just refused payment from these people, and distance themselves from the cause of their problem? because there are like 2000 members in goon and the subsciption each month is 15 times that by 2000 and you get 30,000 a month which is a lot of cash in the end.
A court of law can't solve CCP's problem, when CCP is unwilling to solve its problem with the tools it has. Well right now i think CCP are assesing there options first before going any further which is the prudant thing to do i think you would agree.
Why is it need adressing? All I see is CCP getting free unpaid bughunters. Because if it's true that's what it is used for.
There are benifits to having the contact for CCP. Not all is bad. You have to prove not assume that BoB gets unfair advantage from this for it to be bad.
Coulda...woulda...shoulda...
Now is he a spunk stain? Probably. But smack talk happens in many from in many ways, especially in a highly charged compitition that goes on in EvE.
The way in which the guy spoke to an ISD member was more than just smack talk, it was down-right disrespectful. It seems to me that the reason he said it, is because he knew he could get away with it, which has clearly happened.
The guy was acting 'high and mighty' to an ISD. Personally, I've always believe in never biting the hand that feeds me. This guy sounds as if he is above that, like he has CCP in the palm of his hand. If I worked for CCP, and someone was acting in that manner to my employee's he would be banned immediately.
I've always liked CCP, and will continue playing this game. But the way they allow themselves to be whipped by some little random shut-in in public, makes me lose a little respect for CCP.
But ISD personnel are NOT employees of CCP. They are player volunteers. I would be very surprise if ISD personnel was treated with deference just because they had an ISD tag. Knowing the denizen of the interweb, I would be very surprise. I'd be surprise if web denizen treated ANYBODY with deference. Yet you are using this non-punishment of treating ISD personnel with disrespect as proof of CCP favortism. Since when has anyone been punished for this kind of behavior unless it was beyond the pale.
You are anguish based on a boast made in an internet game. A discussion on the propriaty of having players and dev contact in such a manner is approprite. And there are a few threads in the EVE board on this subject. But, you are taking CCP to task and demanding a response from them base on an ingame boast.
What is the actual misconduct. A boast is not proof of misconduct.
go back to ya cave Bobby