i agree with this dude.. CCP is a company and its not in there best interests to support alliances in game. If we have some cheating douche BOB dev's then CCP will handle it. Everyone blows this outta proportion and you are all drama llamas.
Originally posted by Precusor I hope CCP takes those retards to court.
That's the last thing that CCP wants. The press coverage alone would bury them. But given their track record of arrogance and stupidity, I expect them to do just that.
Ahh right. EA is such a caring and modest company - oh wait. Well, but at last Sony is?.... damn.. no hit either. What about Blizzard with WoW?... They care fo the customer so much and are absolutely not arrogant at all.... argh... sorry, an other bubble busted. Please could you clarify on that "track record of stupidity and arrogance" a bit more?. Throwing in unbased accusations is not very bright either. And no, the T20 incident and the current Goon Propaganda War can't be really called a "Track record".
Why can't their reaction to the T20 and Goon allegations be used to show a track record? That's a significant portion of CCP's time on the market. It's also the most time relevant.
They refused to answer all of the questions posed to them during the T20 incident and are doing the same now. Their responses to the recent allegations did not even address all of the allegations raised. Now, they are once again going silent. So either they can't understand the questions raised, or they are intentionally dodging the questions. Either way, it's just plain stupid.
Not dealing with T20 properly was stupid. Not removing the spawned BPOs, stupid. Not explaining why T20 can't be punished a second time, stupid.
You always talk to your customers. You never just walk away. This doesn't mean that you have to agree with them, just explain your position. This is standard customer service. CCP is so arrogant that they feel that they don't have to treat their players as customers. This is clear reading any one of Kieron's recent posts especially the one where he says that if you don't like how CCP is operating, go find another game. Pure arrogance. Also stupidity since Kieron is still the community manager.
If CCP would just talk to the players about the recent allegations and the related questions, the whole issue would settle down. But they refuse to discuss the issues. That is stupid.
I'm sure that others will add other examples.
Originally posted by Azirophos
Originally posted by jpyrich ...., the perception is that BoB indeed bypassed the petition system and summoned CCP using MSN to reprimand the ISD reporter. If this is not true, then CCP has only themselves to blame for that perception.
Got proof for that "perception"? No? Good, then please don't fling around hearsay and wild accusations.
Proof? Go look up the word "perception". Truth and perception do not go hand in hand.
Originally posted by Azirophos Maybe it IS true, maybe not, but we simply don't know.
We don't know because CCP refuses to discuss the issue. This is the same thing that they did with the spawned BPOs, so it's only logical to conclude that they have something to hide this time as well.
Originally posted by Azirophos And let's say you were on IRC/MSN with a Dev/GM and you just happen to have the problems (ISD Reporter bumping you), wouldn't you mention it?... honestly?
I might mention it. But if I did, I wouldn't expect him to do anything about it. I'd expect him to tell me to file a petition. Anything else is preferential treatment.
Originally posted by Azirophos Also, apparantly the accusations against the ISD member were true, as he was already being watched closely for former misconduct. And CCP fired him. Where do you have a problem with that? I say the faster he is out of ISD, the better, and if it needs some guy, MSN and a "direct link" to CCP all the better. But fact is we don't know for sure.
There are many things that we don't know.
1) We don't know that the bumping ever occurred.
2) We don't know if the ISD teleport command places the ship dangerously close to player ships.
3) We don't know if accidental bumping would be grounds for dismissal.
4) We don't know if ISD reporters are required to leave a system if a player requests that they do so.
5) We don't know if there was a petition filed at the time of the alleged bumping (time was cut off of that petition in the dev blog, but not the other petition).
6) We don't know why a database administrator (Admiral C) was dealing with this incident.
7) We don't know how it was that Admiral C responded so quickly.
I have no problem with CCP getting rid of a problem ISD reporter if that's what happened. And I really don't have a problem if Admiral C acted without a petition to do so as long as it doesn't happen again.
Using any kind of direct link to the Devs is preferential treatment no matter what the problem. It is not acceptable for some players to get quick response to a problem while the rest of the players need to wait for a petition response.
Originally posted by Azirophos The issue with Goons n BoB is not about if Goons or BoB are lying, but mainly the DoS attack (it was nothing else) on the Forums of EVE-Online and several hundered bad mouthing posts on out of game forums. And that BEFORE all the facts were known.
I don't agree with what the Goons did mainly because they did not exhaust all of the appropriate channels open to them. They did complain about the forums mods to the right people and did not contact IA.
However, it was not a DoS attack. It was not intended to take down to the server. The intent was getting past the Mods who were deleting the threads. The server was taken down by CCP so that they could delete all of the posts made and ban the players who made the posts. If it had been a DoS attack, it wouldn't have been done with posting messages on a forum.
Originally posted by Azirophos While the former whine threads actually had some basis, this "New Age Whining (TM)" is mostly made out of pure speculation and hearsay. And the few real actual facts are distorted way out of proportion.
I don't agree that the allegation in the Goonswarm Open Letter were distorted way out of proportion. They got some things wrong, but in the end so did CCP.
1) "CCP employees abusing their roles to join player corporations and give themselves director access"
The fact is that there was a reason for the GM to join the Corp. However, CCP first posted that the GM was there to fix a bugged POS. That was an error and it caused massive speculation on the forums when the CEO of that Corp stated that no POS related petition had ever been filed. The actual petition was regarding some BPOs that were stuck in a factory slot.
It's also important to note that the members of the Corp (Darkstar1) posted repeatedly on the forums that they did not think that there was anything untoward happening, but the lack of any response from CCP was disturbing. There were some issues of communications between CCP and Darkstar1 and neither side was completely blameless there.
This allegation was not true, not distorted way out of proportion and did highlight a few things that CCP could change in their procedures as well as highlighting the fact that petitions can be trashed if you d/c while filing them.
2) "RP-events being rigged"
CCP did not respond to this specific allegation. They responded to the allegation that RP events were being rigged to help players in the game. That is not the allegation that was in the letter.
The allegation was that the outcome of RP events were rigged. This has all but been confirmed by CCP as being true.
3) "further fraternization between your employees and members of BoB and the subsequent cover-up"
This first part of this allegation is that a BoB members (Orange Species) used MSN to report an ISD reporter after the reporter refused a demand to leave the system. This has never been addressed by CCP.
TBH, I'm not sure what the second part is about. I can only assume that it's referring to the dismissal of the ISD reporter. I do agree that that allegation is a bit distorted. However, CCP's response didn't answer this allegation.
Originally posted by Azirophos Also what people don't seem to get is that BoB are REALLY that good. Not because they are have cheating devh4xx0rz, but because they have dedication, good stategic planning, and very high determination to reach their goal.
I haven't seen the inner workings of BoB, but I would tend to agree with this. My friends and I have been on that side of things in other games. If you are doing that well, you must be cheating because we couldn't do that.
For my part, I don't hate BoB and I don't hate the Goons. I neither believe or dismiss something said just because of the alliance affiliation of the speaker. I want a level playing field for all of the players in the game and I want CCP to step up and put all of the allegations to bed. Answer all of the current questions as well as the questions that remain from the T20 incident. I want to feel that CCP is the company that I thought that it was, and not the one that it currently appears to be.
The ISD member incident has nothing to do with goons who exploded the incident out of proportion without knowing all the facts.
The BPO thing was an internal CCP issue that was dealt with, also had nothing to do with goons. As I understand it CCP now have a internal affairs crew to prevent and investigate issues like this. This should make everyone happy.
Goons need to accept that the CCP staff member that joined their corp was trying to help them. When they found out about it instead of talking to CCP and investigating it themselves they decided to launch a slander campaign against CCP. Obviously once again you got pissed off because you did not have all the information, accepting the opinion one of your members as truth before finding out what actually happened.
Sorry things are not going so well for you in game. You can blame it on BoB blobbing you to death all you want but the reality is you probably have a greater ability to blob them back but you cant seem to get it together with your allies.
Well done on everything you accomplished in game, stop trying to undo it with this cry more noob effort you are on.
Ah but it is important where the information came from, anything provided by the goons is strictly propaganda. As evidenced that NO neutral party has verified anything they said. Nada.
They answered more questions on the T20 incident that most developers would have. They covered the pertinent items, why bother with fluff? Pretty black and white incident. They goofed and they apologized. They now have controls to prevent such from happening in the future. Can't ask for more.
I really have wonder about your information resources. The ISD reporter was on very thin ice prior to this incident. He had several other incidents where he was interfering with gameplay, this was just the last straw. CCP did exactly what they should have done, removed the guy, he was abusing his privileges. Saying you are ignorant of the facts of this case completely deflates your arguments.
Oh, spamming the forums is not a DOS attack? Encouraging a large group to spam the forums is exactly that. Most childish reaction I have seen yet. If the goons have that kind of leadership, they are in a very sorry state.
I love this quote, "the goons got some things wrong". They did not get some wrong, they got all of it wrong. If there is any truth in that letter it is so disguised by false claims it is unrecognizable.
These silly allegations about devs excerting their influence to help BoB is strictly slander as there has been zero, zip, nada proof and anything like that occured. Spreading innuendo is beneath you. Pretty easy for CCP to find out about that if it occured. I take their word over a goons any day in the week.
I don't like BoB, but accusing CCP of collaboration with not even a sliver of fact is just ludicrous as I found your entire post.
Originally posted by Ciredric Ah but it is important where the information came from, anything provided by the goons is strictly propaganda. As evidenced that NO neutral party has verified anything they said. Nada.
CCP has all but stated directly that RP events are rigged. So, there's one confirmation for you. Or are they not neutral?
BoB Directors talking on Scrapheap Challenge did not deny that Orange Species "mouthed off in local" and discussed it as if it were the truth. Are they not neutral?
I can understand people being wary about accepting what Goonswarm stated as the truth, but to just flat out reject it out of hand is tinfoil hat wearing at it's best.
Originally posted by Ciredric They answered more questions on the T20 incident that most developers would have. They covered the pertinent items, why bother with fluff? Pretty black and white incident. They goofed and they apologized. They now have controls to prevent such from happening in the future. Can't ask for more.
Most developers would have canned the Dev on the spot and immediately removed the spawned BPOs from the game right away and therefore wouldn't have had the firestorm in the game.
CCP screwed up and they admitted it. That's a good thing and I give them lots of credit for that. However, they denied it and attempted to kill the discussion multiple times before finally admitting it, so that's a wash. If they were smart they would have come out with everything as soon as they knew Kugutsmen had the info. The fact that they
They should answer all of the questions including the fluff. That's just good customer service. I know that there were at least a handful of pertinent questions left unanswered. For example, was T20's being in charge of RKK's capital fleet in line with CCP company policy? Shouldn't staff be excluded from taking major positions in Alliances?
Originally posted by Ciredric I really have wonder about your information resources. The ISD reporter was on very thin ice prior to this incident. He had several other incidents where he was interfering with gameplay, this was just the last straw. CCP did exactly what they should have done, removed the guy, he was abusing his privileges. Saying you are ignorant of the facts of this case completely deflates your arguments.
That's the CCP party line. And I would be more than happy to take CCP's word on this (as you have) if the information that that presented from the investigation wasn't so spotty and incomplete. That just makes me question what they have stated as fact.
Originally posted by Ciredric Oh, spamming the forums is not a DOS attack? Encouraging a large group to spam the forums is exactly that. Most childish reaction I have seen yet.
It's spamming. It's not a DoS. A DoS would have crashed the server. It didn't crash the server, CCP took it down. A DoS would be automated. These were posts from separate individuals. It was not a DoS.
The whole threadnaught is something that we should never see. The Goons were wrong in doing it because they had not exhausted all of the official channels first. However, some blame also falls on CCP. If they had fully closed out the T20 incident and not just ignored the players asking questions, they would have have fostered the air of mistrust.
Originally posted by Ciredric If the goons have that kind of leadership, they are in a very sorry state.
From what I understand, other have used the threadnaught to get CCP to react to bugs in the game. That was stated by a non-Goon on the forums, but I have not confirmed that. However, no one challenged that statement either.
Originally posted by Ciredric I love this quote, "the goons got some things wrong". They did not get some wrong, they got all of it wrong. If there is any truth in that letter it is so disguised by false claims it is unrecognizable.
As I pointed out in my last post. They did not get it all wrong. They got some of it wrong and some of it right.
Originally posted by Ciredric These silly allegations about devs excerting their influence to help BoB is strictly slander as there has been zero, zip, nada proof and anything like that occured. Spreading innuendo is beneath you. Pretty easy for CCP to find out about that if it occured. I take their word over a goons any day in the week.
It would be nice to have the option to take CCP's word for it, but they have avoided discussing the MSN incident entirely. Since they did exactly this with the BPOs, we can only assume that it's true. In addition, not a single person of the hundreds that were in the system (from both sides) have denied that it happened.
Originally posted by Ciredric I don't like BoB, but accusing CCP of collaboration with not even a sliver of fact is just ludicrous as I found your entire post.
I never never once implied that CCP is working in collaboration with BoB. I think that BoB is being screwed by CCP now just as they were screwed with CCP's handling of the T20 incident.
If you want to just blindly accept anything that CCP says, that's your choice. But don't expect the rest of us to don our tinfoil hats and fall into rank.
Originally posted by Azirophos 1.) That thing with MSN is rumor and nothing else. It has not been proven as false or true.
CCP responded directly to some of the allegations that Goonfleet has been flinging, for example the entire joining the corp thing, and has even stated that the ISD guy was already in trouble. The fact that they are willing to deny some of the allegations outright, and address part of that incident, but not the issue of BOB having devs at their beck and call instead of having to petition is plenty of evidence for me.
I just commented that even IF it was true in this case I couldn't care less.
It means that the playing field is not level, that if I have a problem I may wait for a week to hear back but they can get 5 minute turnaround. You might not care that BOB cheats if that's true, but I don't care whether you care.
2.) One developer (T20) spawned a few T2 BP0s for personal use for a character he had in BoB. That is fact, and proven.
In other words, the fact is that CCP cheated to assist BOB and clearly approve of the action, as shown by the fact that they did not remove the T2 BPO the dev created for them or their ill-gotten gains and continue to employ the person who cheated for BOB's benefit. That right there moves the game into the 'not one cent' category for me.
Also proven is that the value of said T2 BP0s is laughable when comparing to the costs of, let's say, BoB's capital fleet, let alone their POSes and Outposts. So the actual gain for T20 or BoB was minimal at best.
Trying to excuse cheating by pointing out that the proven cheating didn't have that big of an effect on the game is just sad. The fact that they cheated is enough for me, trying to whitewash it by saying that it wasn't much cheating just isn't going to work. BTW, how much is a T2 blueprint worth in-game, and how much would that isk go for in GTC dollars?
The only question that remains is that: Are you somebody who accept that people (even DEVs can make mistakes) and give people a second unbiased chance, or are you one of those people who will hold a mistake into someones face till the end of times?
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. CCP never removed the items, and continutes to employ the developer, and even continues to have characters in BOB (though supposedly no 'leadership' roles). The fact that they didn't, and apparently don't, have a 'fire on sight' policy for CCP employees using their position to give advantage to in-game players really says it all.
Originally posted by Ciredric They answered more questions on the T20 incident that most developers would have. They covered the pertinent items, why bother with fluff? Pretty black and white incident. They goofed and they apologized. They now have controls to prevent such from happening in the future. Can't ask for more.
They didn't remove the items he gave to BOB, and they didn't fire him. By CCP's own admission, one of their employees cheated to help BOB and they didn't undo the damage and think the person is still suited to work on the game.
Removing the items that the rogue dev created for BOB is not asking for too much, the fact that they're willing to just give BOB T2 blueprints says an awful lot about how they run the game, and the fact that they continue to employ the guy who gave the blueprints to BOB says it all about whether or not they approve of those actions.
They answered more questions on the T20 incident that most developers would have. They covered the pertinent items, why bother with fluff? Pretty black and white incident. They goofed and they apologized. They now have controls to prevent such from happening in the future. Can't ask for more.
They didn't remove the items he gave to BOB, and they didn't fire him. By CCP's own admission, one of their employees cheated to help BOB and they didn't undo the damage and think the person is still suited to work on the game.
Removing the items that the rogue dev created for BOB is not asking for too much, the fact that they're willing to just give BOB T2 blueprints says an awful lot about how they run the game, and the fact that they continue to employ the guy who gave the blueprints to BOB says it all about whether or not they approve of those actions.
For all of their warts, remember that CCP discovered T20's cheating long before it became public. However, they screwed up with T20. They admitted it. If they fire T20 now they will face legal action. The BPOs are no longer in BoB's hands. Also keep in mind that there is nothing to indicate that BoB knew anything about the illicit nature of those BPOs.
Well, it's been 2 weeks since this broke, and it's not going anywhere soon!
Also watching people argue about this reminds me of the books I used to read about the Bermuda Triangle. No one knows if it's real or not but there are tons of theories and rumors to go around.
Originally posted by Firebird1 Well, it's been 2 weeks since this broke, and it's not going anywhere soon! Also watching people argue about this reminds me of the books I used to read about the Bermuda Triangle. No one knows if it's real or not but there are tons of theories and rumors to go around.
Hehe, very true.
I think I said what I have to say to the topic. I won't start splitting hairs. I wish a nice rumormongering to those remaining to the discussion.
------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
Originally posted by jpyrich For all of their warts, remember that CCP discovered T20's cheating long before it became public.
Yes, and they banned the guy who discovered it. They claimed that it was because he released some private info about BOB memebers, but when BOB memebers released private info about him none of them were banned. Bringing up that part of the story doesn't really help CCP.
If they fire T20 now they will face legal action.
That's not my problem. If they have their company policies set up so poorly that they cannot protect the integrity of their games, or if their country's labor laws are such that they cannot protect the integrity of their games, it still means that they cannot protect the integrity of their game. If they were concerned at all with running a fair game, from day one they would have had a corporate policy on the books to cover the situation.
The BPOs are no longer in BoB's hands. Also keep in mind that there is nothing to indicate that BoB knew anything about the illicit nature of those BPOs.
Aside from the threads on BOB's boards discussing the illicit nature of those BPOs...
Originally posted by jpyrich For all of their warts, remember that CCP discovered T20's cheating long before it became public.
Yes, and they banned the guy who discovered it. They claimed that it was because he released some private info about BOB memebers, but when BOB memebers released private info about him none of them were banned. Bringing up that part of the story doesn't really help CCP.[quote] I didn't say that CCP handled the incident well. But they do deserve some credit for finding the cheating themselves.
Originally posted by Pantastic
Originally posted by jpyrich If they fire T20 now they will face legal action.
That's not my problem. If they have their company policies set up so poorly that they cannot protect the integrity of their games, or if their country's labor laws are such that they cannot protect the integrity of their games, it still means that they cannot protect the integrity of their game. If they were concerned at all with running a fair game, from day one they would have had a corporate policy on the books to cover the situation.
They did have a corporate policy set up to deal with this. However, it wasn't followed to the letter by the people left to run things while senior management was on vacation. CCP screwed up and admitted it. I just don't see the point of going over this again and again.
The one question that I would still like CCP to answer is if T20 is now banned from playing EVE.
Originally posted by Pantastic
Originally posted by jpyrich The BPOs are no longer in BoB's hands. Also keep in mind that there is nothing to indicate that BoB knew anything about the illicit nature of those BPOs.
Aside from the threads on BOB's boards discussing the illicit nature of those BPOs...
I didn't see any such discussion from those logs. Link please.
"Yes, and they banned the guy who discovered it. They claimed that it was because he released some private info about BOB memebers, but when BOB memebers released private info about him none of them were banned. Bringing up that part of the story doesn't really help CCP." They banned Kug for other things, and he deseved it....all with common sense will know that..scanning IP`s, attacking the income base of the company..hell i would kick the guy out of my store, no matter what. Remember this is a business not only a game. Some people earn money to feed their families. As for BoB members realising public info was not at all private..shall we search Something Awful forums where Kug was present under his name?, shall we google about his place of living..Infos were all on internet weel beyond BoB members gave them on eve-o, so there were public info.
"That's not my problem. If they have their company policies set up so poorly that they cannot protect the integrity of their games, or if their country's labor laws are such that they cannot protect the integrity of their games, it still means that they cannot protect the integrity of their game. If they were concerned at all with running a fair game, from day one they would have had a corporate policy on the books to cover the situation." I agree with u as a customer, but what do u really want. Solution in RL is NOT PAYING THEM MONEY AND GO TO THEIR COMPETITION. But i see u still here! Why?
"Aside from the threads on BOB's boards discussing the illicit nature of those BPOs..." Those threads were after the disclosure. Is nice to post halftruths and make them lies. no?
I supported the Goons for the most part until this attempt by them to slander CCP based on hearsay and unfounded speculation. Now I think they're as bad or worse than BoB. A pox on both their houses.
Originally posted by jpyrich I didn't say that CCP handled the incident well. But they do deserve some credit for finding the cheating themselves.
The credit for discovering cheating is outweighed a hundred times over by the fact that did not effectively respond to the cheating.
They did have a corporate policy set up to deal with this. However, it wasn't followed to the letter by the people left to run things while senior management was on vacation.
I'm not really interested in playing a semantics game. They EFFECTIVELY had no corporate policy set up to deal appropriately with the situation, as shown by the actual events. A game in which all of senior management will go on vacation and allow rampant cheating is a game that allows rampant cheating, the 'senior management was on vacation' excuse is about as lame as them saying that a dog ate their anti-cheating policy.
CCP screwed up and admitted it. I just don't see the point of going over this again and again.
They screwed up, only admitted it after banning the person who publicised it, have yet to correct their screw-up, and clearly have not admitted to the magnitude of their mistake, as shown by the 'managers were on vacation' excuse. I don't trust them to run a fair game at all, primarily based on their own comments on the matter.
I didn't see any such discussion from those logs. Link please.
OK, then tell me what exactly did break the story of the illicit BPOs, if not the threads on BOB's boards discussing their illicit nature?
Originally posted by niraco79 I agree with u as a customer, but what do u really want. Solution in RL is NOT PAYING THEM MONEY AND GO TO THEIR COMPETITION. But i see u still here! Why?
I'm here because I enjoy posting on the mmorpg.com message boards, but I don't really understand the basis for this question.
You're asking me why I am on a board with free registration and that, even if they charged for registration, has no direct affiliation with CCP and so wouldn't be sending registration fees to them anyway, while pointing out that I should not be paying CCP money. I don't see why you say that I should not pay CCP money, then ask why I'm engaging in an activity that involves paying no money at all, much less money to CCP; you seem to think you have me in some kind of conundrum, but I don't see it.
Whining about something that occured last summer is rather silly. Sorry the horse left the barn a long time ago.
Way to derail a thread. This thread involves the goons response to CCP investigation. It has zip to do with the dev within BoB incident.
Basically the goons got their butts kicked by BoB and their only solution was to level false accusations at CCP. While most of us fail to see their line of reasoning, if you knew the goons, they do not fit the normal mold.
I can understand the goons frustration, but their methods were horrible to say the least. Completely the wrong approach. There is sufficient data using the failure of the Chinese server to lobby for a change in the way alliances maintain control of 0.0.
For any that don't know the chinese server had a big war in 0.0, the north against the south and the north lost. Subsequently the server numbers dropped drastically. The losers left the game leaving the south with a hollow victory and the south players soon left too as there was nothing to fight over anymore. All that is left is about 4000 subscriptions who are mostly bots.
If the goons had used their heads and presented a reasonable argument about this, things might have been different. Of course if you know the goons, thinking with the head is not reasonable.
So what we have here is a lot of screaming and pointing of fingers over a nonissue, when the real issue is alliance control in 0.0.
There is so much mis-information and twisting of facts in this letter that it would be difficult to find a place to start picking it apart. The little respect I had left for Goonfllet just went out the window because of their further attempts to project their opinions on others. They need to get over themselves and come to the realization that just because they are big, it does not mean they can conquer whomever they please and whenever. There are corps and alliances out there much more organized and experienced than the Goons are and because of that will be able to continue besting the Goons. Each time the Goons losses a battle they cry "FOUL!"
As far as I am concerned, they should quit crying about it so much when they've stated incesively on the official EVE forums that they don't care.
I supported the Goons for the most part until this attempt by them to slander CCP based on hearsay and unfounded speculation. Now I think they're as bad or worse than BoB. A pox on both their houses.
They've stated on the official forums numerous times " BoB = Bad Goons = Worse" They know they are worse and proud of it. It bogles my mind how they can be proud of such a thing.
i am planning to quit eve after 11months thanks to Numerous BoD incidents got sick of it how much of stuff they had helpd BOB to wat extent wud they want to help out BoB in every aspect? they helped them enough in iskies and that iskies was used to buy out other allaicnes and buy out spies and not the least a monopoly over 0.0 space , the whole purpose was that i belive they(BoD) wanted to control 0.0 space area by using one allaicne trusty enough to do the dirty work and help out buying out other alliances top basically monopolise the 0.0 space in wich in the end turn wanted to avoid a incident that happend on the chinese server coz they knew if at all it happend like that 0.0 space wud be ruled out by a single entity , so in short BoD realised the best wat they needed was use one alliance in these efforts and dominate over the ingame process so it wud look like player driven but in all the players who have thought enough and realised it who had been noticing the events in detail and regards to all the things that was working behind the whole process and this sad plans wud have come to this conclusion.
Incidents: T2 BPO / Iskies / Motehrship / POS....many more i wud say if there were suffcient amount of people to take more interest to un-wrap more dirty secrets..and forget the "BoB Vs Coalition" thing BoB never had a chance agsitn teh coalition and the only reason the had been able to do it is due to these incidents that basdically was enough not only to take over 0.0 but even enough to own and maintain poses at empire.
Coulda...woulda...shoulda.... that's all I see. In the one and only cheating incident, the T20 incident, a "thing" was done that everyone could get a hold of, put a finger on. The transfer of a Tech II BPO. In this latest "incident" all I see is coulda...woulda...shoulda... There is no "thing" anyone could tag as cheating. It's all he could have done this...they should have done that...they would have done something. Every thing they claim to be CCP cheating is really "we don't like the way you treat us". So that is now the standard to judge cheating? Sharkbait joining, granting permission, fixing a bug and then leaving the corp. What is the cheat? Goon has yet to make a claim. All they claim is "you didn't tell us". So that is cheating? CCP deleted our petition. How is that cheating, even more so since it's not true. You don't like the way they run their petition system, but it does not rise to the level of cheating. They fired someone. That's cheating? It is really a matter, a private matter between CCP and the person they fired. Then to top it all off, after days of discussion, you were proven to be wrong and to save face you lump it all up and say CCP's conduct is proof of corruption. WHAT?!?! all it prove is you don't like the way they run their game. A far cry from corruption. Coulda....woulda...shoulda.... that's all I see.
Ahem , luckily i came by ur post ok to get u a CLEAR picture in ur head let me put it this way..
Consider a neighbourhood , u got a neighbour living in the house across a street living there..you dont have much contact with him but u know a little of him but anways u guard ur front door and next thing withOUT your knowledge you see that neighbour coming out your house from your backdoor and says he went to fix your T.V or something like that ......now wat was he ACTUALLY doing ??... doing adjustments? setting up something? changing up some of the stuff that run the place? or was there to set of a spark that wud coz some other problems internally ....there are quiet a few things that cud be done without ur knowledge..
I think many of you need to head back to first grade, you have lost the ability to spell. The writing on this forum is atrocious.
The incident with the GM joining a corp to fix something has always been done that way, that is exactly how they have to fix somethings. If you even bothered to read the CCP response you would understand why it was done. Pretty obvious too many of you are whining when you have not even read the facts, that in itself is pretty sad.
Comments
They refused to answer all of the questions posed to them during the T20 incident and are doing the same now. Their responses to the recent allegations did not even address all of the allegations raised. Now, they are once again going silent. So either they can't understand the questions raised, or they are intentionally dodging the questions. Either way, it's just plain stupid.
Not dealing with T20 properly was stupid. Not removing the spawned BPOs, stupid. Not explaining why T20 can't be punished a second time, stupid.
You always talk to your customers. You never just walk away. This doesn't mean that you have to agree with them, just explain your position. This is standard customer service. CCP is so arrogant that they feel that they don't have to treat their players as customers. This is clear reading any one of Kieron's recent posts especially the one where he says that if you don't like how CCP is operating, go find another game. Pure arrogance. Also stupidity since Kieron is still the community manager.
If CCP would just talk to the players about the recent allegations and the related questions, the whole issue would settle down. But they refuse to discuss the issues. That is stupid.
I'm sure that others will add other examples.
Proof? Go look up the word "perception". Truth and perception do not go hand in hand. We don't know because CCP refuses to discuss the issue. This is the same thing that they did with the spawned BPOs, so it's only logical to conclude that they have something to hide this time as well. I might mention it. But if I did, I wouldn't expect him to do anything about it. I'd expect him to tell me to file a petition. Anything else is preferential treatment.There are many things that we don't know.
1) We don't know that the bumping ever occurred.
2) We don't know if the ISD teleport command places the ship dangerously close to player ships.
3) We don't know if accidental bumping would be grounds for dismissal.
4) We don't know if ISD reporters are required to leave a system if a player requests that they do so.
5) We don't know if there was a petition filed at the time of the alleged bumping (time was cut off of that petition in the dev blog, but not the other petition).
6) We don't know why a database administrator (Admiral C) was dealing with this incident.
7) We don't know how it was that Admiral C responded so quickly.
I have no problem with CCP getting rid of a problem ISD reporter if that's what happened. And I really don't have a problem if Admiral C acted without a petition to do so as long as it doesn't happen again.
Using any kind of direct link to the Devs is preferential treatment no matter what the problem. It is not acceptable for some players to get quick response to a problem while the rest of the players need to wait for a petition response.
I don't agree with what the Goons did mainly because they did not exhaust all of the appropriate channels open to them. They did complain about the forums mods to the right people and did not contact IA.However, it was not a DoS attack. It was not intended to take down to the server. The intent was getting past the Mods who were deleting the threads. The server was taken down by CCP so that they could delete all of the posts made and ban the players who made the posts. If it had been a DoS attack, it wouldn't have been done with posting messages on a forum.
I don't agree that the allegation in the Goonswarm Open Letter were distorted way out of proportion. They got some things wrong, but in the end so did CCP.1) "CCP employees abusing their roles to join player corporations and give themselves director access"
The fact is that there was a reason for the GM to join the Corp. However, CCP first posted that the GM was there to fix a bugged POS. That was an error and it caused massive speculation on the forums when the CEO of that Corp stated that no POS related petition had ever been filed. The actual petition was regarding some BPOs that were stuck in a factory slot.
It's also important to note that the members of the Corp (Darkstar1) posted repeatedly on the forums that they did not think that there was anything untoward happening, but the lack of any response from CCP was disturbing. There were some issues of communications between CCP and Darkstar1 and neither side was completely blameless there.
This allegation was not true, not distorted way out of proportion and did highlight a few things that CCP could change in their procedures as well as highlighting the fact that petitions can be trashed if you d/c while filing them.
2) "RP-events being rigged"
CCP did not respond to this specific allegation. They responded to the allegation that RP events were being rigged to help players in the game. That is not the allegation that was in the letter.
The allegation was that the outcome of RP events were rigged. This has all but been confirmed by CCP as being true.
3) "further fraternization between your employees and members of BoB and the subsequent cover-up"
This first part of this allegation is that a BoB members (Orange Species) used MSN to report an ISD reporter after the reporter refused a demand to leave the system. This has never been addressed by CCP.
TBH, I'm not sure what the second part is about. I can only assume that it's referring to the dismissal of the ISD reporter. I do agree that that allegation is a bit distorted. However, CCP's response didn't answer this allegation.
I haven't seen the inner workings of BoB, but I would tend to agree with this. My friends and I have been on that side of things in other games. If you are doing that well, you must be cheating because we couldn't do that.For my part, I don't hate BoB and I don't hate the Goons. I neither believe or dismiss something said just because of the alliance affiliation of the speaker. I want a level playing field for all of the players in the game and I want CCP to step up and put all of the allegations to bed. Answer all of the current questions as well as the questions that remain from the T20 incident. I want to feel that CCP is the company that I thought that it was, and not the one that it currently appears to be.
The ISD member incident has nothing to do with goons who exploded the incident out of proportion without knowing all the facts.
The BPO thing was an internal CCP issue that was dealt with, also had nothing to do with goons. As I understand it CCP now have a internal affairs crew to prevent and investigate issues like this. This should make everyone happy.
Goons need to accept that the CCP staff member that joined their corp was trying to help them. When they found out about it instead of talking to CCP and investigating it themselves they decided to launch a slander campaign against CCP. Obviously once again you got pissed off because you did not have all the information, accepting the opinion one of your members as truth before finding out what actually happened.
Sorry things are not going so well for you in game. You can blame it on BoB blobbing you to death all you want but the reality is you probably have a greater ability to blob them back but you cant seem to get it together with your allies.
Well done on everything you accomplished in game, stop trying to undo it with this cry more noob effort you are on.
Ah but it is important where the information came from, anything provided by the goons is strictly propaganda. As evidenced that NO neutral party has verified anything they said. Nada.
They answered more questions on the T20 incident that most developers would have. They covered the pertinent items, why bother with fluff? Pretty black and white incident. They goofed and they apologized. They now have controls to prevent such from happening in the future. Can't ask for more.
I really have wonder about your information resources. The ISD reporter was on very thin ice prior to this incident. He had several other incidents where he was interfering with gameplay, this was just the last straw. CCP did exactly what they should have done, removed the guy, he was abusing his privileges. Saying you are ignorant of the facts of this case completely deflates your arguments.
Oh, spamming the forums is not a DOS attack? Encouraging a large group to spam the forums is exactly that. Most childish reaction I have seen yet. If the goons have that kind of leadership, they are in a very sorry state.
I love this quote, "the goons got some things wrong". They did not get some wrong, they got all of it wrong. If there is any truth in that letter it is so disguised by false claims it is unrecognizable.
These silly allegations about devs excerting their influence to help BoB is strictly slander as there has been zero, zip, nada proof and anything like that occured. Spreading innuendo is beneath you. Pretty easy for CCP to find out about that if it occured. I take their word over a goons any day in the week.
I don't like BoB, but accusing CCP of collaboration with not even a sliver of fact is just ludicrous as I found your entire post.
BoB Directors talking on Scrapheap Challenge did not deny that Orange Species "mouthed off in local" and discussed it as if it were the truth. Are they not neutral?
I can understand people being wary about accepting what Goonswarm stated as the truth, but to just flat out reject it out of hand is tinfoil hat wearing at it's best.
Most developers would have canned the Dev on the spot and immediately removed the spawned BPOs from the game right away and therefore wouldn't have had the firestorm in the game.CCP screwed up and they admitted it. That's a good thing and I give them lots of credit for that. However, they denied it and attempted to kill the discussion multiple times before finally admitting it, so that's a wash. If they were smart they would have come out with everything as soon as they knew Kugutsmen had the info. The fact that they
They should answer all of the questions including the fluff. That's just good customer service. I know that there were at least a handful of pertinent questions left unanswered. For example, was T20's being in charge of RKK's capital fleet in line with CCP company policy? Shouldn't staff be excluded from taking major positions in Alliances?
That's the CCP party line. And I would be more than happy to take CCP's word on this (as you have) if the information that that presented from the investigation wasn't so spotty and incomplete. That just makes me question what they have stated as fact. It's spamming. It's not a DoS. A DoS would have crashed the server. It didn't crash the server, CCP took it down. A DoS would be automated. These were posts from separate individuals. It was not a DoS.The whole threadnaught is something that we should never see. The Goons were wrong in doing it because they had not exhausted all of the official channels first. However, some blame also falls on CCP. If they had fully closed out the T20 incident and not just ignored the players asking questions, they would have have fostered the air of mistrust.
From what I understand, other have used the threadnaught to get CCP to react to bugs in the game. That was stated by a non-Goon on the forums, but I have not confirmed that. However, no one challenged that statement either. As I pointed out in my last post. They did not get it all wrong. They got some of it wrong and some of it right. It would be nice to have the option to take CCP's word for it, but they have avoided discussing the MSN incident entirely. Since they did exactly this with the BPOs, we can only assume that it's true. In addition, not a single person of the hundreds that were in the system (from both sides) have denied that it happened. I never never once implied that CCP is working in collaboration with BoB. I think that BoB is being screwed by CCP now just as they were screwed with CCP's handling of the T20 incident.If you want to just blindly accept anything that CCP says, that's your choice. But don't expect the rest of us to don our tinfoil hats and fall into rank.
CCP responded directly to some of the allegations that Goonfleet has been flinging, for example the entire joining the corp thing, and has even stated that the ISD guy was already in trouble. The fact that they are willing to deny some of the allegations outright, and address part of that incident, but not the issue of BOB having devs at their beck and call instead of having to petition is plenty of evidence for me.
It means that the playing field is not level, that if I have a problem I may wait for a week to hear back but they can get 5 minute turnaround. You might not care that BOB cheats if that's true, but I don't care whether you care.
In other words, the fact is that CCP cheated to assist BOB and clearly approve of the action, as shown by the fact that they did not remove the T2 BPO the dev created for them or their ill-gotten gains and continue to employ the person who cheated for BOB's benefit. That right there moves the game into the 'not one cent' category for me.
Trying to excuse cheating by pointing out that the proven cheating didn't have that big of an effect on the game is just sad. The fact that they cheated is enough for me, trying to whitewash it by saying that it wasn't much cheating just isn't going to work. BTW, how much is a T2 blueprint worth in-game, and how much would that isk go for in GTC dollars?
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. CCP never removed the items, and continutes to employ the developer, and even continues to have characters in BOB (though supposedly no 'leadership' roles). The fact that they didn't, and apparently don't, have a 'fire on sight' policy for CCP employees using their position to give advantage to in-game players really says it all.
They didn't remove the items he gave to BOB, and they didn't fire him. By CCP's own admission, one of their employees cheated to help BOB and they didn't undo the damage and think the person is still suited to work on the game.
Removing the items that the rogue dev created for BOB is not asking for too much, the fact that they're willing to just give BOB T2 blueprints says an awful lot about how they run the game, and the fact that they continue to employ the guy who gave the blueprints to BOB says it all about whether or not they approve of those actions.
They didn't remove the items he gave to BOB, and they didn't fire him. By CCP's own admission, one of their employees cheated to help BOB and they didn't undo the damage and think the person is still suited to work on the game.
Removing the items that the rogue dev created for BOB is not asking for too much, the fact that they're willing to just give BOB T2 blueprints says an awful lot about how they run the game, and the fact that they continue to employ the guy who gave the blueprints to BOB says it all about whether or not they approve of those actions.
For all of their warts, remember that CCP discovered T20's cheating long before it became public. However, they screwed up with T20. They admitted it. If they fire T20 now they will face legal action. The BPOs are no longer in BoB's hands. Also keep in mind that there is nothing to indicate that BoB knew anything about the illicit nature of those BPOs.Also watching people argue about this reminds me of the books I used to read about the Bermuda Triangle. No one knows if it's real or not but there are tons of theories and rumors to go around.
Hehe, very true.
I think I said what I have to say to the topic. I won't start splitting hairs.
I wish a nice rumormongering to those remaining to the discussion.
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Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
Yes, and they banned the guy who discovered it. They claimed that it was because he released some private info about BOB memebers, but when BOB memebers released private info about him none of them were banned. Bringing up that part of the story doesn't really help CCP.
That's not my problem. If they have their company policies set up so poorly that they cannot protect the integrity of their games, or if their country's labor laws are such that they cannot protect the integrity of their games, it still means that they cannot protect the integrity of their game. If they were concerned at all with running a fair game, from day one they would have had a corporate policy on the books to cover the situation.
Aside from the threads on BOB's boards discussing the illicit nature of those BPOs...
[quote]Originally posted by Pantastic
Yes, and they banned the guy who discovered it. They claimed that it was because he released some private info about BOB memebers, but when BOB memebers released private info about him none of them were banned. Bringing up that part of the story doesn't really help CCP.[quote]I didn't say that CCP handled the incident well. But they do deserve some credit for finding the cheating themselves. They did have a corporate policy set up to deal with this. However, it wasn't followed to the letter by the people left to run things while senior management was on vacation. CCP screwed up and admitted it. I just don't see the point of going over this again and again.
The one question that I would still like CCP to answer is if T20 is now banned from playing EVE.
I didn't see any such discussion from those logs. Link please.The credit for discovering cheating is outweighed a hundred times over by the fact that did not effectively respond to the cheating.
I'm not really interested in playing a semantics game. They EFFECTIVELY had no corporate policy set up to deal appropriately with the situation, as shown by the actual events. A game in which all of senior management will go on vacation and allow rampant cheating is a game that allows rampant cheating, the 'senior management was on vacation' excuse is about as lame as them saying that a dog ate their anti-cheating policy.
They screwed up, only admitted it after banning the person who publicised it, have yet to correct their screw-up, and clearly have not admitted to the magnitude of their mistake, as shown by the 'managers were on vacation' excuse. I don't trust them to run a fair game at all, primarily based on their own comments on the matter.
OK, then tell me what exactly did break the story of the illicit BPOs, if not the threads on BOB's boards discussing their illicit nature?
I'm here because I enjoy posting on the mmorpg.com message boards, but I don't really understand the basis for this question.
You're asking me why I am on a board with free registration and that, even if they charged for registration, has no direct affiliation with CCP and so wouldn't be sending registration fees to them anyway, while pointing out that I should not be paying CCP money. I don't see why you say that I should not pay CCP money, then ask why I'm engaging in an activity that involves paying no money at all, much less money to CCP; you seem to think you have me in some kind of conundrum, but I don't see it.
Whining about something that occured last summer is rather silly. Sorry the horse left the barn a long time ago.
Way to derail a thread. This thread involves the goons response to CCP investigation. It has zip to do with the dev within BoB incident.
Basically the goons got their butts kicked by BoB and their only solution was to level false accusations at CCP. While most of us fail to see their line of reasoning, if you knew the goons, they do not fit the normal mold.
I can understand the goons frustration, but their methods were horrible to say the least. Completely the wrong approach. There is sufficient data using the failure of the Chinese server to lobby for a change in the way alliances maintain control of 0.0.
For any that don't know the chinese server had a big war in 0.0, the north against the south and the north lost. Subsequently the server numbers dropped drastically. The losers left the game leaving the south with a hollow victory and the south players soon left too as there was nothing to fight over anymore. All that is left is about 4000 subscriptions who are mostly bots.
If the goons had used their heads and presented a reasonable argument about this, things might have been different. Of course if you know the goons, thinking with the head is not reasonable.
So what we have here is a lot of screaming and pointing of fingers over a nonissue, when the real issue is alliance control in 0.0.
But what I want to know now is what one of you got the Forums over at Eve-online turned off again?
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There is so much mis-information and twisting of facts in this letter that it would be difficult to find a place to start picking it apart. The little respect I had left for Goonfllet just went out the window because of their further attempts to project their opinions on others. They need to get over themselves and come to the realization that just because they are big, it does not mean they can conquer whomever they please and whenever. There are corps and alliances out there much more organized and experienced than the Goons are and because of that will be able to continue besting the Goons. Each time the Goons losses a battle they cry "FOUL!"
As far as I am concerned, they should quit crying
about it so much when they've stated incesively on the official EVE forums that they don't care.
They've stated on the official forums numerous times " BoB = Bad Goons = Worse" They know they are worse and proud of it. It bogles my mind how they can be proud of such a thing.
i am planning to quit eve after 11months thanks to Numerous BoD incidents got sick of it how much of stuff they had helpd BOB to wat extent wud they want to help out BoB in every aspect? they helped them enough in iskies and that iskies was used to buy out other allaicnes and buy out spies and not the least a monopoly over 0.0 space , the whole purpose was that i belive they(BoD) wanted to control 0.0 space area by using one allaicne trusty enough to do the dirty work and help out buying out other alliances top basically monopolise the 0.0 space in wich in the end turn wanted to avoid a incident that happend on the chinese server coz they knew if at all it happend like that 0.0 space wud be ruled out by a single entity , so in short BoD realised the best wat they needed was use one alliance in these efforts and dominate over the ingame process so it wud look like player driven but in all the players who have thought enough and realised it who had been noticing the events in detail and regards to all the things that was working behind the whole process and this sad plans wud have come to this conclusion.
Incidents: T2 BPO / Iskies / Motehrship / POS....many more i wud say if there were suffcient amount of people to take more interest to un-wrap more dirty secrets..and forget the "BoB Vs Coalition" thing BoB never had a chance agsitn teh coalition and the only reason the had been able to do it is due to these incidents that basdically was enough not only to take over 0.0 but even enough to own and maintain poses at empire.
EvE = Too BoD Driven .......Biasing FTW
Ahem , luckily i came by ur post ok to get u a CLEAR picture in ur head let me put it this way..
Consider a neighbourhood , u got a neighbour living in the house across a street living there..you dont have much contact with him but u know a little of him but anways u guard ur front door and next thing withOUT your knowledge you see that neighbour coming out your house from your backdoor and says he went to fix your T.V or something like that ......now wat was he ACTUALLY doing ??... doing adjustments? setting up something? changing up some of the stuff that run the place? or was there to set of a spark that wud coz some other problems internally ....there are quiet a few things that cud be done without ur knowledge..
I think many of you need to head back to first grade, you have lost the ability to spell. The writing on this forum is atrocious.
The incident with the GM joining a corp to fix something has always been done that way, that is exactly how they have to fix somethings. If you even bothered to read the CCP response you would understand why it was done. Pretty obvious too many of you are whining when you have not even read the facts, that in itself is pretty sad.