Weeelll, BOB havent always been around you know, it stands to reason that these "Dev" characters have been in several different groups like many long standing EVE players.
I like the fact you are willing to believe that there are Devs in BoB but not in any other group past or present.
It has been stated repeatedly that there are CCP employees including Devs in several corps and alliances including 0.0 alliances.
Even Goonswarm members personally know CCP employees including Devs (fanfest anyone?) I think the informal relationship and accessability that has been one of CCPs main strengths i.e talking to and listening to the playerbase has now come back to haunt them as a minority of the playerbase are now trying to destroy CCPs business.
Do I love CCP? not really, do I love BoB? certainly not, but people seem to have lost sight of the facts.
Shit happened, it was handled, possibly mishandled and life goes on.
Since then its all been hot air mainly coming from Goons tbh. I think they have a cheek accusing people of photoshopping stuff and faking log files when they come from Something awful a site notorious for just such shennigans.
I would have to dissagree all of these problems stem from Devs being in player corps and alliances. The devs cant be trusted to represent all players equally when they are comanding fleets for BOB. DEV's arent trying to build a trust with the player base they are serving their own self intrest. We are all paying customers and should be treated fairly.
I made a post in the solution thread, Yitrobiatch check it out and let me know what you think. Eve can be a great game but is in serious need a management changes[ DEV's get out of player corps.]
I did not even bother reading that drabble. FACT is Goons cant play worth a shit. They are poorly lead, and their players rather rush head long into conflict instead of thinking. And they are not as rich as BoB is.
So you got your arse handed to you? So what? BoB is a better alliance then yours? So What...
Cant accept defeat lets accuse CCP of having Alts in BoB. That is such a waste of time...They had no alts in m0o and they have no alts/mains in BoB. Most of the CCP staff belong to NPC corps just to prevent this....
I wish all the goons would sign in and 'terminate' their Goon alts, and their mains. If CCP had any lick of bussness sense, they would fine the alliance a few billion isk, and ban the leaders of the alliance for this crap.
I did not even bother reading that drabble. FACT is Goons cant play worth a shit. They are poorly lead, and their players rather rush head long into conflict instead of thinking. And they are not as rich as BoB is.
So you got your arse handed to you? So what? BoB is a better alliance then yours? So What...
Cant accept defeat lets accuse CCP of having Alts in BoB. That is such a waste of time...They had no alts in m0o and they have no alts/mains in BoB. Most of the CCP staff belong to NPC corps just to prevent this....
I wish all the goons would sign in and 'terminate' their Goon alts, and their mains. If CCP had any lick of bussness sense, they would fine the alliance a few billion isk, and ban the leaders of the alliance for this crap.
So says the guy who thinks Vangaurd is gunna pick up ans steal players from eve lol. Hey you never know right. Any way its common knowledge that Devs have played in player corps.
Chances of any of this affecting normal users is slim.
What exactly do the "goons" or whatever hope to achieve?
An unfair advantage like the perceived one that BoB has?
Or the closing of the game they seem to have so much invested in? Im sure that will show everyone the error of there ways.
I mean, what do you want?
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
I would have to dissagree all of these problems stem from Devs being in player corps and alliances. The devs cant be trusted to represent all players equally when they are comanding fleets for BOB. DEV's arent trying to build a trust with the player base they are serving their own self intrest. We are all paying customers and should be treated fairly.
I made a post in the solution thread, Yitrobiatch check it out and let me know what you think. Eve can be a great game but is in serious need a management changes[ DEV's get out of player corps.]
Firstly, I have to take issue with the concept of 'fair' having received the equivalent of an unlubed welcome to low sec last night by a kill gang consisting of four ships versus my one, I have to giggle girlishly at the concept.
There was also the time where my corp was station camped by a 15 ship fleet consisting mainly of BS to our cruisers. Funnily enough that was by a merc corp hired by a character called 'theEnslaver', who is now a GM.
Eve isn't fair. It's one of the things that makes the game hard and very hostile. The current 'exploiting' of can-flagging by people is completely within the rules, but is used to drag people into combat if they aren't careful in checking the corp of the can thief.
Regarding devs in player corps; that's something CCP have to deal with, but it's merely the first horse that gets beaten although it's expired. It's an ex-horse. it has shuffled off this mortal coil. Do an ingame search for 'T20' and tell all the nice people how old the character is. Losing 60 million skill points has GOT to hurt. Hell, losing anything in the game hurts, but 60 million skillpoints?
I'm COMPLETELY satisfied that CCP are dealing with it internally. Four years too late, but better late than never. I'm even not that bothered by apparent BoB contacts with Devs ingame, mainly because it doesn't actually effect my game.
But attacking CCP in public forums, such as this one, by reprinting goons screeds from their website is astroturfing, and I can't stay silent when the mud is muddied further by trying to draw old issues into a new frame and trying to create a moral equivalency by dragging everything down to the same level. Get over the fact that devs play the game, it's not the worst thing to happen and 90% of the playerbase is never going to come into contact with one.
Personally I'm more worried about 'heat' (solution looking for a problem), 'walking in stations' (wtf? We're becoming a tech demo for WOD?), the balance of missiles and the Amarr, and even the fact that ships appear to drop out of warp sideways, a consistent bug from at least three years ago.
EVE can be a great game but what game is their realy if Devs are in the most powerfull player corps. Thier is no endgame play ,unless you like being a pet ,second best or joining them. Untill CCP openly states that they have removed all DEV accounts from player corps and will fire any DEV that unfairly helps a EVE player outside of normal channels I will keep stating the truth. I personally feel many people wont want to play a game with no end game. Where Devs are actively conquering their paying customers. At least I wouldnt have wasted a yr and a half of my life had i known.
Anyone who went to fan fest last yr seen first hand how IT was all about the devs. They set up big screan tvs so us their paying costumers could watch them fight each other with their 60 mill sp charecters. Im glad to see this yr that they are learning and will let the players fight each other, it is a fan fest after all not a dev fest.
All CCP has to do to repair their name is make public statements that they mad mistakes, remove the dev charecters and any Dev caught helping a player will be fired. Whats so hard about that?
Chances of any of this affecting normal users is slim.
There are multiple issues and it's becoming more complex daily as people quit GoonSwarm in disgust. Basically CCP has to grow a pair and start wielding a big ban stick. The loss of $35K/month is probably something they could bear judging from the active playerbase of around 28,000 players.
What exactly do the "goons" or whatever hope to achieve?
They're a corp birthed by somethingawful.com. Visit the website to see what kind of thing they're into. They use 'holding CCP accountable' as the excuse d'jour, when it's actually to create a sh**storm.
An unfair advantage like the perceived one that BoB has?
Already done, when they hacked the ingame portraits to show custom portraits. Scamming new players, griefing and generally being idiots is within the game rules, but they're pushing the boundaries with their 'threadnaughts', war decs against critics and general idiocy.
This all goes back to the competitive nature of alliance space and the various accusations that have flown around have escalated into handbaggery of epic proportions. I just don't like the fact that Goons try to claim a moral highground after their antics to directly try to force people to quit the game.
Or the closing of the game they seem to have so much invested in?
GoonSwarm originally started with the concept of fast'n'cheap frigate swarms. It was an interesting idea that piqued the accepted wisdom that you need large ships to deal and take damage. It's suicidal to start with, but becomes quite effective. This then moved to using lagsploits. As they became the 'bete noire' of Eve, they started wholesale scamming of potential recruits.
As may have been stated before, when you lose in Eve, you lose fairly hard, and losing a couple of months earnings may well make you think about leaving the game.
They love the badge of the jerks of Eve. I personally don't care, always check any deals and have, touch wood, done fairly well from not being scammed.
All CCP has to do to repair their name is make public statements that they mad mistakes, remove the dev charecters and any Dev caught helping a player will be fired. Whats so hard about that?
First two have been done. You may have missed them because they only appeared on the news, dev blog, and a fairly difficult apology from t20 himself. The last one is pretty much covered by a recent Arkanon announcement that they're putting in logging.
You're naughty, you didn't say how old 't20' is. 4th April 2007.
As for firing devs, they're not just slot-in positions. There's a fairly accurate rumour that some of the POS controls were coded by someone who left, which is why they're so clunky and still being used. As a developer myself (not Eve before you get excited), it can take a while to train someone to take the place of an existing dev, and the icelandic coder marketplace has to be fairly light.
Seriously, you don't think losing a sixty mill skill point character hurts more than losing your job? Jobs you can always get, but sixty million points is six years investment in the game, roughly speaking.
NOW, this stuff has already happened, the dredging up of the event again is an attempt to create a moral equivalency and indicate that CCP is corrupt. They aren't corrupt, they OWN and OPERATE the game that you agree to play according to the EULA, which effectively absolves CCP of any liability.
When people tell you that your alternatives are to leave the game or accept the actions of CCP, they aren't trying to silence you, they're just stating the fairly obvious point that YOU have no control over what CCP does, and although it'll capitulate to a certain degree regarding what the playerbase wants, they really have the last word as to what is and is not going to happen.
Same thing about any shrinkwrap software who's EULA you rapidly clickthru after installing. Seriously, read through them. Forget most of it, look for the disclaimers.
Finally, there is roughly 25% of any grouping that will refuse to believe anything stated as truth, especially if they actively distrust the entity making the statement. If it's a vocal 25%, then it can appear as though there is a lot more than is actually happening, and due to the nature of Eve, only the largest corporations dare to break cover and say anything against the concensus. As a result, most of the actual game forums are taken up by the extended battle between BoB and the opposing alliances. The 'dev' thing is brought up constantly as a smear against BoB and CCP because it was confirmed, admitted and dealt with.
Muleck some good points in that post. Just to clarify are all private dev accounts removed from player corps. Or just the bad guys that got caught cheating?
I agree it hurts way more to loose a charecter that you spent yrs building then a Dev job. Thats why i have been championing Devs getting out of player corps long before any of this goon stuff. I would speculate their is more real money to be made in eve with the right conections then what ccp would pay a Dev. Thats why its so important that their is a good managment poilcy in effect.
Please make my day and tell me that all Devs have been removed from player corps. So I can go back to enjoying EVE again
CCP said DEVs aren't allowed to be Directors or hold positions of responsibility/power in alliances anymore, I find it hard to believe that really happened though. I believe the floods gates were let open earlier this year and the little boy (CCP) that had been pluging holes with his fingers had no fingers left and got drowned. It looks like CCP has reached a subscriber cap since TQ is no longer breaking records on a regular basis, this corruption business seems to have been the catalyst in CCPs change of fortune.
The question at CCP is now will the subs increase, level off and stay stable or start declining regularly for the first time? The last time it went this long with no new record being announced was years ago when I first joined, it'd go a month or two then the record would be beaten by a small amount.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
Originally posted by jpyrich Originally posted by Agricola1 CCP said DEVs aren't allowed to be Directors or hold positions of responsibility/power in alliances anymore... [snip]
To true, from what I was able to glean from that thread is basically a PR man telling you what you want to hear without firmly stating anything as policy. He starts his entire string with the statement, "This is my personal view and is not an official stance by CCP:" That pretty much invalidates anything that follows, since its his opinion and not fact. Then he goes on to contradict himself on about CCP employees not being in Alliances then saying that oh what I meant to say is that they are, sorry but htis guy should have just not commented in the thread at all.
I actually bothered to read through that letter all the way through, from what I've gathered from CCP's reactions and such.... It's rather pathetic not from the Goon's side, but from the companies side, they've basically said to me "We don't want our Gamemasters or Employees playing the game they created with the community" they gave NO reason on WHY they wanted to stop that gamemaster and no reason why they were threatening to ban the Goon Fleet. They said they were cheating, but they didn't release any proper details or reports on the situation itself and were very vague, reminds me of a certain other company *coughs* Blizzard *coughs* to put it simply I think those who just think the Goon Fleet are just being paranoid and whatnot are being naive, why else would Goon Fleet make this incredibly long and well thought out reply to CCP?
It is clear they just want to play the game and I for one reckon that CCP just simply don't want their employees socializing with the gamers, it's this kind of attitude that games companies make which ruin game in the first place, employees don't talk to their players and just hand the job to some power crazed idiot who deletes any topic they don't like or just makes smart arse comments like an average troll. Even Bioware a company that is quite large and immensely popular for it's successful RPG titles speak to their playerbase, if you look at Dragon Age you'll see that even the developers occasionally look in to see what people are saying about the game and actually reply to them if the NDA allows them to.
I say they should go ahead and fight them, ignore the comments make and don't let CCP try and pick on them because that's all I see it as personally, there is no reason why employees should not be able to play the games they make or work for, it's their own fault for allowing developers access to the game to cheat not the players.
Quoting people doesn't make you clever, in fact, it makes you all the more stupid for not bothering to read the quotes you post in the first place.
First of all, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that finds GoonFleet calling out CCP a bit ironic. GoonsFleet asking for the truth. LOL I'm sorry, but Eve-Online is CCP's game. Their rules, their game, and your choice if your choose to play or not. GoonFleet, go home. You have no right at all to call for clear evidence to every statement CCP makes. Your ego is obviously much larger than your corporation. You are lucky that EVE-Online isn't MY game or I would have banned everyone in your fleet because of what happened over the weekend. How come it is okay for it be be "just bad timing" of when you released the letters over a holiday weekend and we all are suppose to believe that?
It isn't like Goonsfleet has a reputation of being open, honest, and model citizens of EVE-Online. LOL
In case you have forgotten, EVE-Online is just a GAME!!!!!!!!!!
GoonFleet, don't you have some ISK to sell to IGE? I hear they are running low because of you guys spending too much time in this "Righteous" campaign you've embarked on.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
There seem to be many of us that are not Goons that want CCP to clean their house up. If you choose to play games with the attitude that its their world and your just a squirrel trying to get a nut, well then I geuss you will never be dissapointed. I personally feel its our game, we the gamers. It would be nothing without us.
I dont think any of the topg dogs in EVE have a reputation of being open, honest, and model citizens of EVE-Online. LOL. so its not just a Problem that Goons has. Furthermore at least Goons hasnt been implicated in any cheating Dev scandles. People in glass houses shouldnt through stones.
True EVE is just a game. But EVE can be a very profitable game, at current isk to us dollar amounts BoB is worth well over 250k with a easy monthly income of at least 30k month. Probably way more.
As far as Goons selling isk i have no clue. Im not sure if they are organized enough to pull off a real operation. But we all know which alliances are the big complex farmers . BoB has to have the best complexes in the game along with some of the best space. At fan fest last year i got a real education on what realy goes on in all the top alliances. Macro mining anyone?
All this being said EVE could be a great game removing devs from player corps and prohibiting devs from unfairly helping their freinds would be a big step.
But what i saw in the time i played, their forums are really "nazi-style". The forums is what makes up a good part of the community.
Reading all those things about T20 and the case now.
Lied once, never trusted again.
Even if i do them wrong, i don't have the time or nerves to find out the truth, i'll just never play something from CCP again and so will be my word of mouth.
That's the last thing that CCP wants. The press coverage alone would bury them. But given their track record of arrogance and stupidity, I expect them to do just that.
Actually you have it all wrong. Goons are born lyers. They lie, scam and steal anything they can get away with. If there is a grey area, they are there taking advantage of it. And you think anything they say is untainted? Takes a pretty gullible person to believe anything they provided.
CCP on the other hand never lied about anything. They just never mentioned the T20 incident. Name me one other MMO that actually admitted they had internal problems. Yep, zero, zip. Not one. Once it was brought to light they admitted it was handled badly, but they provided all the sordid details. No other developer would have done that.
One incident and it effected none of you posters, none.
As to these new allegations, complete fabrication. Not one iota of truth to any of it.
CCP is one of the best companies out there that support MMO's.
CCP avoided discussions of the T20 incident when it was originally brought to light. When the players would not let it drop, we were told that they needed to investigate the allegations. They needed to "investigate" something that they had already discovered six months earlier. They were far from being upfront about the whole T20 incident. Did they come right out and lie about it? IIRC, early on they said that the allegations were untrue.
With the current allegations, CCP is completely avoiding discussing the Admiral C MSN incident as if it never happened. This is *exactly* the same type of method that they used in the T20 affair. Since T20 did in fact spawn illegal BPOs, and CCP is reacting the exact same way to the Admiral C MSN incident, the perception is that BoB indeed bypassed the petition system and summoned CCP using MSN to reprimand the ISD reporter. If this is not true, then CCP has only themselves to blame for that perception.
So if all of the 4,000+ players in Goonswarm are liars, then all of BoB must be cheaters, right? After all, we had a BoB member admit to cheating (T20) while the whole "Goons are lying" is merely an accusation.
Originally posted by jpyrich Originally posted by Precusor I hope CCP takes those retards to court.
That's the last thing that CCP wants. The press coverage alone would bury them. But given their track record of arrogance and stupidity, I expect them to do just that.
Ahh right. EA is such a caring and modest company - oh wait. Well, but at last Sony is?.... damn.. no hit either. What about Blizzard with WoW?... They care fo the customer so much and are absolutely not arrogant at all.... argh... sorry, an other bubble busted.
Please could you clarify on that "track record of stupidity and arrogance" a bit more?. Throwing in unbased accusations is not very bright either. And no, the T20 incident and the current Goon Propaganda War can't be really called a "Track record".
There are actually very few game companies with this level of friendly interaction (so much for the arrogance) with the community. Be it the (more or less) regular devblogs, their Magazine, the Fanfest, or the numerous posts, and (now again more often) devchats.
Originally posted by jpyrich ...., the perception is that BoB indeed bypassed the petition system and summoned CCP using MSN to reprimand the ISD reporter. If this is not true, then CCP has only themselves to blame for that perception.
Got proof for that "perception"? No? Good, then please don't fling around hearsay and wild accusations. Maybe it IS true, maybe not, but we simply don't know. And let's say you were on IRC/MSN with a Dev/GM and you just happen to have the problems (ISD Reporter bumping you), wouldn't you mention it?... honestly? Also, apparantly the accusations against the ISD member were true, as he was already being watched closely for former misconduct. And CCP fired him. Where do you have a problem with that? I say the faster he is out of ISD, the better, and if it needs some guy, MSN and a "direct link" to CCP all the better. But fact is we don't know for sure.
Originally posted by jpyrich ...., So if all of the 4,000+ players in Goonswarm are liars, then all of BoB must be cheaters, right? After all, we had a BoB member admit to cheating (T20) while the whole "Goons are lying" is merely an accusation.
The issue with Goons n BoB is not about if Goons or BoB are lying, but mainly the DoS attack (it was nothing else) on the Forums of EVE-Online and several hundered bad mouthing posts on out of game forums. And that BEFORE all the facts were known. Goons are mad that they can't ruin EVE by actually playing the game, and now they are looking for other ways. Simple as that.
It is actually wonderful how the "The skill system of EVE sucks", "Buhuhu, you can't have a lvl60 pilot in 13 hours", "Ban pirates out of EVE so I can mine in peace", "I will neeeever be able to compete with the vets" (yeah, those doctors can be mean), and similar threads disspapeared, and were replaced with all this BoB, Goon, and "Devh4xx0rz" threads. While the former whine threads actually had some basis, this "New Age Whining (TM)" is mostly made out of pure speculation and hearsay. And the few real actual facts are distorted way out of proportion. CCP made exactly one big mistake, with the T20 incident, and that is it. These new "misconducts" are mainly the expression out of the frustration of the Goons, that they are unable to become a major power in EVE. It seems the EVE haters desperately needed new topics that the already mentioned above dead horses.
Also what people don't seem to get is that BoB are REALLY that good. Not because they are have cheating devh4xx0rz, but because they have dedication, good stategic planning, and very high determination to reach their goal. EVERY single entity who tried to face BOB was unable to match their qualities in the planning and on the battlefield. Join a BoB corp and see how they think and work, and you won't be surprised anymore that they are a that strong force in EVE. They are not immortal or unbeatable as they seem, but the inabilities of their foes shed them in that light.
But who cares anyways. The witch hunters need to be feeded, and they take their victims no matter if they are innocent or not. Actually frightening how little humanity has changed over the last few hundred years. We are still the same brutal, humdrum and frightened from the unknown as we ever were.
------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
Originally posted by Azirophos Also, apparantly the accusations against the ISD member were true, as he was already being watched closely for former misconduct. And CCP fired him. Where do you have a problem with that? I say the faster he is out of ISD, the better, and if it needs some guy, MSN and a "direct link" to CCP all the better. But fact is we don't know for sure.
Also what people don't seem to get is that BoB are REALLY that good. Not because they are have cheating devh4xx0rz, but because they have dedication, good stategic planning, and very high determination to reach their goal. EVERY single entity who tried to face BOB was unable to match their qualities in the planning and on the battlefield.
Other people aren't able to match their ability to have developers help their corporation and lack the ability to MSN someone at eve and get someone kicked out of the game instantly. It really doesn't matter whether they're any good at anything else in the game, the fact is that outright cheating (by having the people who run the game give them a leg up) has helped them get their current success, so it's all tainted.
If I play an FPS against someone and the server admin sets the game to start me off with better guns and tells me where the other guy is, I'm not winning because of being REALLY that good, I'm winning because of cheating.
Originally posted by Pantastic Other people aren't able to match their ability to have developers help their corporation and lack the ability to MSN someone at eve and get someone kicked out of the game instantly. It really doesn't matter whether they're any good at anything else in the game, the fact is that outright cheating (by having the people who run the game give them a leg up) has helped them get their current success, so it's all tainted. If I play an FPS against someone and the server admin sets the game to start me off with better guns and tells me where the other guy is, I'm not winning because of being REALLY that good, I'm winning because of cheating.
Did you read and understand what I wrote?
1.) That thing with MSN is rumor and nothing else. It has not been proven as false or true. I just commented that even IF it was true in this case I couldn't care less. I have no problem with BoB or any other alliance having direct contact with the Devs / GMs, because I generally still trust CCP that such a contact is also for the benefit of the game. That there also may be DEVs who will try to abuse their power, but in light of recent events I again trust CCP to handle such matters, should they ever arise, swiftly.
2.) One developer (T20) spawned a few T2 BP0s for personal use for a character he had in BoB. That is fact, and proven. Also proven is that the value of said T2 BP0s is laughable when comparing to the costs of, let's say, BoB's capital fleet, let alone their POSes and Outposts. So the actual gain for T20 or BoB was minimal at best.
Every other incidents of "cheating", including the "Goon Incident" were disproven.
The only question that remains is that: Are you somebody who accept that people (even DEVs can make mistakes) and give people a second unbiased chance, or are you one of those people who will hold a mistake into someones face till the end of times?
Your call.
------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
Comments
I would have to dissagree all of these problems stem from Devs being in player corps and alliances. The devs cant be trusted to represent all players equally when they are comanding fleets for BOB. DEV's arent trying to build a trust with the player base they are serving their own self intrest. We are all paying customers and should be treated fairly.
I made a post in the solution thread, Yitrobiatch check it out and let me know what you think. Eve can be a great game but is in serious need a management changes[ DEV's get out of player corps.]
I did not even bother reading that drabble. FACT is Goons cant play worth a shit. They are poorly lead, and their players rather rush head long into conflict instead of thinking. And they are not as rich as BoB is.
So you got your arse handed to you? So what? BoB is a better alliance then yours? So What...
Cant accept defeat lets accuse CCP of having Alts in BoB. That is such a waste of time...They had no alts in m0o and they have no alts/mains in BoB. Most of the CCP staff belong to NPC corps just to prevent this....
I wish all the goons would sign in and 'terminate' their Goon alts, and their mains. If CCP had any lick of bussness sense, they would fine the alliance a few billion isk, and ban the leaders of the alliance for this crap.
People still crying over this?
Chances of any of this affecting normal users is slim.
What exactly do the "goons" or whatever hope to achieve?
An unfair advantage like the perceived one that BoB has?
Or the closing of the game they seem to have so much invested in? Im sure that will show everyone the error of there ways.
I mean, what do you want?
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
I made a post in the solution thread, Yitrobiatch check it out and let me know what you think. Eve can be a great game but is in serious need a management changes[ DEV's get out of player corps.]
Firstly, I have to take issue with the concept of 'fair' having received the equivalent of an unlubed welcome to low sec last night by a kill gang consisting of four ships versus my one, I have to giggle girlishly at the concept.
There was also the time where my corp was station camped by a 15 ship fleet consisting mainly of BS to our cruisers. Funnily enough that was by a merc corp hired by a character called 'theEnslaver', who is now a GM.
Eve isn't fair. It's one of the things that makes the game hard and very hostile. The current 'exploiting' of can-flagging by people is completely within the rules, but is used to drag people into combat if they aren't careful in checking the corp of the can thief.
Regarding devs in player corps; that's something CCP have to deal with, but it's merely the first horse that gets beaten although it's expired. It's an ex-horse. it has shuffled off this mortal coil. Do an ingame search for 'T20' and tell all the nice people how old the character is. Losing 60 million skill points has GOT to hurt. Hell, losing anything in the game hurts, but 60 million skillpoints?
I'm COMPLETELY satisfied that CCP are dealing with it internally. Four years too late, but better late than never. I'm even not that bothered by apparent BoB contacts with Devs ingame, mainly because it doesn't actually effect my game.
But attacking CCP in public forums, such as this one, by reprinting goons screeds from their website is astroturfing, and I can't stay silent when the mud is muddied further by trying to draw old issues into a new frame and trying to create a moral equivalency by dragging everything down to the same level. Get over the fact that devs play the game, it's not the worst thing to happen and 90% of the playerbase is never going to come into contact with one.
Personally I'm more worried about 'heat' (solution looking for a problem), 'walking in stations' (wtf? We're becoming a tech demo for WOD?), the balance of missiles and the Amarr, and even the fact that ships appear to drop out of warp sideways, a consistent bug from at least three years ago.
EVE can be a great game but what game is their realy if Devs are in the most powerfull player corps. Thier is no endgame play ,unless you like being a pet ,second best or joining them. Untill CCP openly states that they have removed all DEV accounts from player corps and will fire any DEV that unfairly helps a EVE player outside of normal channels I will keep stating the truth. I personally feel many people wont want to play a game with no end game. Where Devs are actively conquering their paying customers. At least I wouldnt have wasted a yr and a half of my life had i known.
Anyone who went to fan fest last yr seen first hand how IT was all about the devs. They set up big screan tvs so us their paying costumers could watch them fight each other with their 60 mill sp charecters. Im glad to see this yr that they are learning and will let the players fight each other, it is a fan fest after all not a dev fest.
All CCP has to do to repair their name is make public statements that they mad mistakes, remove the dev charecters and any Dev caught helping a player will be fired. Whats so hard about that?
There are multiple issues and it's becoming more complex daily as people quit GoonSwarm in disgust. Basically CCP has to grow a pair and start wielding a big ban stick. The loss of $35K/month is probably something they could bear judging from the active playerbase of around 28,000 players.
They're a corp birthed by somethingawful.com. Visit the website to see what kind of thing they're into. They use 'holding CCP accountable' as the excuse d'jour, when it's actually to create a sh**storm.
Already done, when they hacked the ingame portraits to show custom portraits. Scamming new players, griefing and generally being idiots is within the game rules, but they're pushing the boundaries with their 'threadnaughts', war decs against critics and general idiocy.
This all goes back to the competitive nature of alliance space and the various accusations that have flown around have escalated into handbaggery of epic proportions. I just don't like the fact that Goons try to claim a moral highground after their antics to directly try to force people to quit the game.
GoonSwarm originally started with the concept of fast'n'cheap frigate swarms. It was an interesting idea that piqued the accepted wisdom that you need large ships to deal and take damage. It's suicidal to start with, but becomes quite effective. This then moved to using lagsploits. As they became the 'bete noire' of Eve, they started wholesale scamming of potential recruits.
As may have been stated before, when you lose in Eve, you lose fairly hard, and losing a couple of months earnings may well make you think about leaving the game.
They love the badge of the jerks of Eve. I personally don't care, always check any deals and have, touch wood, done fairly well from not being scammed.
Hugs,
Muleck
You're naughty, you didn't say how old 't20' is. 4th April 2007.
As for firing devs, they're not just slot-in positions. There's a fairly accurate rumour that some of the POS controls were coded by someone who left, which is why they're so clunky and still being used. As a developer myself (not Eve before you get excited), it can take a while to train someone to take the place of an existing dev, and the icelandic coder marketplace has to be fairly light.
Seriously, you don't think losing a sixty mill skill point character hurts more than losing your job? Jobs you can always get, but sixty million points is six years investment in the game, roughly speaking.
NOW, this stuff has already happened, the dredging up of the event again is an attempt to create a moral equivalency and indicate that CCP is corrupt. They aren't corrupt, they OWN and OPERATE the game that you agree to play according to the EULA, which effectively absolves CCP of any liability.
When people tell you that your alternatives are to leave the game or accept the actions of CCP, they aren't trying to silence you, they're just stating the fairly obvious point that YOU have no control over what CCP does, and although it'll capitulate to a certain degree regarding what the playerbase wants, they really have the last word as to what is and is not going to happen.
Same thing about any shrinkwrap software who's EULA you rapidly clickthru after installing. Seriously, read through them. Forget most of it, look for the disclaimers.
Finally, there is roughly 25% of any grouping that will refuse to believe anything stated as truth, especially if they actively distrust the entity making the statement. If it's a vocal 25%, then it can appear as though there is a lot more than is actually happening, and due to the nature of Eve, only the largest corporations dare to break cover and say anything against the concensus. As a result, most of the actual game forums are taken up by the extended battle between BoB and the opposing alliances. The 'dev' thing is brought up constantly as a smear against BoB and CCP because it was confirmed, admitted and dealt with.
Hugs,
Muleck
Muleck some good points in that post. Just to clarify are all private dev accounts removed from player corps. Or just the bad guys that got caught cheating?
I agree it hurts way more to loose a charecter that you spent yrs building then a Dev job. Thats why i have been championing Devs getting out of player corps long before any of this goon stuff. I would speculate their is more real money to be made in eve with the right conections then what ccp would pay a Dev. Thats why its so important that their is a good managment poilcy in effect.
Please make my day and tell me that all Devs have been removed from player corps. So I can go back to enjoying EVE again
CCP said DEVs aren't allowed to be Directors or hold positions of responsibility/power in alliances anymore, I find it hard to believe that really happened though. I believe the floods gates were let open earlier this year and the little boy (CCP) that had been pluging holes with his fingers had no fingers left and got drowned. It looks like CCP has reached a subscriber cap since TQ is no longer breaking records on a regular basis, this corruption business seems to have been the catalyst in CCPs change of fortune.
The question at CCP is now will the subs increase, level off and stay stable or start declining regularly for the first time? The last time it went this long with no new record being announced was years ago when I first joined, it'd go a month or two then the record would be beaten by a small amount.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Quoteth CCP Zrakor
The rest of his comments gives an informative insider perspective regarding the events.
Quoteth CCP Zrakor
The rest of his comments gives an informative insider perspective regarding the events.
I don't see any mention of the above policy posted by CCP Zrakor anywhere in that thread.To true, from what I was able to glean from that thread is basically a PR man telling you what you want to hear without firmly stating anything as policy. He starts his entire string with the statement, "This is my personal view and is not an official stance by CCP:" That pretty much invalidates anything that follows, since its his opinion and not fact. Then he goes on to contradict himself on about CCP employees not being in Alliances then saying that oh what I meant to say is that they are, sorry but htis guy should have just not commented in the thread at all.
It is clear they just want to play the game and I for one reckon that CCP just simply don't want their employees socializing with the gamers, it's this kind of attitude that games companies make which ruin game in the first place, employees don't talk to their players and just hand the job to some power crazed idiot who deletes any topic they don't like or just makes smart arse comments like an average troll. Even Bioware a company that is quite large and immensely popular for it's successful RPG titles speak to their playerbase, if you look at Dragon Age you'll see that even the developers occasionally look in to see what people are saying about the game and actually reply to them if the NDA allows them to.
I say they should go ahead and fight them, ignore the comments make and don't let CCP try and pick on them because that's all I see it as personally, there is no reason why employees should not be able to play the games they make or work for, it's their own fault for allowing developers access to the game to cheat not the players.
Quoting people doesn't make you clever, in fact, it makes you all the more stupid for not bothering to read the quotes you post in the first place.
First of all, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that finds GoonFleet calling out CCP a bit ironic. GoonsFleet asking for the truth. LOL I'm sorry, but Eve-Online is CCP's game. Their rules, their game, and your choice if your choose to play or not. GoonFleet, go home. You have no right at all to call for clear evidence to every statement CCP makes. Your ego is obviously much larger than your corporation. You are lucky that EVE-Online isn't MY game or I would have banned everyone in your fleet because of what happened over the weekend. How come it is okay for it be be "just bad timing" of when you released the letters over a holiday weekend and we all are suppose to believe that?
It isn't like Goonsfleet has a reputation of being open, honest, and model citizens of EVE-Online. LOL
In case you have forgotten, EVE-Online is just a GAME!!!!!!!!!!
GoonFleet, don't you have some ISK to sell to IGE? I hear they are running low because of you guys spending too much time in this "Righteous" campaign you've embarked on.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
There seem to be many of us that are not Goons that want CCP to clean their house up. If you choose to play games with the attitude that its their world and your just a squirrel trying to get a nut, well then I geuss you will never be dissapointed. I personally feel its our game, we the gamers. It would be nothing without us.
I dont think any of the topg dogs in EVE have a reputation of being open, honest, and model citizens of EVE-Online. LOL. so its not just a Problem that Goons has. Furthermore at least Goons hasnt been implicated in any cheating Dev scandles. People in glass houses shouldnt through stones.
True EVE is just a game. But EVE can be a very profitable game, at current isk to us dollar amounts BoB is worth well over 250k with a easy monthly income of at least 30k month. Probably way more.
As far as Goons selling isk i have no clue. Im not sure if they are organized enough to pull off a real operation. But we all know which alliances are the big complex farmers . BoB has to have the best complexes in the game along with some of the best space. At fan fest last year i got a real education on what realy goes on in all the top alliances. Macro mining anyone?
All this being said EVE could be a great game removing devs from player corps and prohibiting devs from unfairly helping their freinds would be a big step.
But what i saw in the time i played, their forums are really "nazi-style". The forums is what makes up a good part of the community.
Reading all those things about T20 and the case now.
Lied once, never trusted again.
Even if i do them wrong, i don't have the time or nerves to find out the truth, i'll just never play something from CCP again and so will be my word of mouth.
Actually you have it all wrong. Goons are born lyers. They lie, scam and steal anything they can get away with. If there is a grey area, they are there taking advantage of it. And you think anything they say is untainted? Takes a pretty gullible person to believe anything they provided.
CCP on the other hand never lied about anything. They just never mentioned the T20 incident. Name me one other MMO that actually admitted they had internal problems. Yep, zero, zip. Not one. Once it was brought to light they admitted it was handled badly, but they provided all the sordid details. No other developer would have done that.
One incident and it effected none of you posters, none.
As to these new allegations, complete fabrication. Not one iota of truth to any of it.
CCP is one of the best companies out there that support MMO's.
With the current allegations, CCP is completely avoiding discussing the Admiral C MSN incident as if it never happened. This is *exactly* the same type of method that they used in the T20 affair. Since T20 did in fact spawn illegal BPOs, and CCP is reacting the exact same way to the Admiral C MSN incident, the perception is that BoB indeed bypassed the petition system and summoned CCP using MSN to reprimand the ISD reporter. If this is not true, then CCP has only themselves to blame for that perception.
So if all of the 4,000+ players in Goonswarm are liars, then all of BoB must be cheaters, right? After all, we had a BoB member admit to cheating (T20) while the whole "Goons are lying" is merely an accusation.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Ahh right. EA is such a caring and modest company - oh wait. Well, but at last Sony is?.... damn.. no hit either. What about Blizzard with WoW?... They care fo the customer so much and are absolutely not arrogant at all.... argh... sorry, an other bubble busted.
Please could you clarify on that "track record of stupidity and arrogance" a bit more?. Throwing in unbased accusations is not very bright either. And no, the T20 incident and the current Goon Propaganda War can't be really called a "Track record".
There are actually very few game companies with this level of friendly interaction (so much for the arrogance) with the community. Be it the (more or less) regular devblogs, their Magazine, the Fanfest, or the numerous posts, and (now again more often) devchats.
Got proof for that "perception"? No? Good, then please don't fling around hearsay and wild accusations. Maybe it IS true, maybe not, but we simply don't know. And let's say you were on IRC/MSN with a Dev/GM and you just happen to have the problems (ISD Reporter bumping you), wouldn't you mention it?... honestly?
Also, apparantly the accusations against the ISD member were true, as he was already being watched closely for former misconduct. And CCP fired him. Where do you have a problem with that? I say the faster he is out of ISD, the better, and if it needs some guy, MSN and a "direct link" to CCP all the better. But fact is we don't know for sure.
The issue with Goons n BoB is not about if Goons or BoB are lying, but mainly the DoS attack (it was nothing else) on the Forums of EVE-Online and several hundered bad mouthing posts on out of game forums. And that BEFORE all the facts were known. Goons are mad that they can't ruin EVE by actually playing the game, and now they are looking for other ways. Simple as that.
It is actually wonderful how the "The skill system of EVE sucks", "Buhuhu, you can't have a lvl60 pilot in 13 hours", "Ban pirates out of EVE so I can mine in peace", "I will neeeever be able to compete with the vets" (yeah, those doctors can be mean), and similar threads disspapeared, and were replaced with all this BoB, Goon, and "Devh4xx0rz" threads. While the former whine threads actually had some basis, this "New Age Whining (TM)" is mostly made out of pure speculation and hearsay. And the few real actual facts are distorted way out of proportion. CCP made exactly one big mistake, with the T20 incident, and that is it. These new "misconducts" are mainly the expression out of the frustration of the Goons, that they are unable to become a major power in EVE. It seems the EVE haters desperately needed new topics that the already mentioned above dead horses.
Also what people don't seem to get is that BoB are REALLY that good. Not because they are have cheating devh4xx0rz, but because they have dedication, good stategic planning, and very high determination to reach their goal. EVERY single entity who tried to face BOB was unable to match their qualities in the planning and on the battlefield. Join a BoB corp and see how they think and work, and you won't be surprised anymore that they are a that strong force in EVE. They are not immortal or unbeatable as they seem, but the inabilities of their foes shed them in that light.
But who cares anyways. The witch hunters need to be feeded, and they take their victims no matter if they are innocent or not. Actually frightening how little humanity has changed over the last few hundred years. We are still the same brutal, humdrum and frightened from the unknown as we ever were.
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Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
Other people aren't able to match their ability to have developers help their corporation and lack the ability to MSN someone at eve and get someone kicked out of the game instantly. It really doesn't matter whether they're any good at anything else in the game, the fact is that outright cheating (by having the people who run the game give them a leg up) has helped them get their current success, so it's all tainted.
If I play an FPS against someone and the server admin sets the game to start me off with better guns and tells me where the other guy is, I'm not winning because of being REALLY that good, I'm winning because of cheating.
Did you read and understand what I wrote?
1.) That thing with MSN is rumor and nothing else. It has not been proven as false or true. I just commented that even IF it was true in this case I couldn't care less. I have no problem with BoB or any other alliance having direct contact with the Devs / GMs, because I generally still trust CCP that such a contact is also for the benefit of the game. That there also may be DEVs who will try to abuse their power, but in light of recent events I again trust CCP to handle such matters, should they ever arise, swiftly.
2.) One developer (T20) spawned a few T2 BP0s for personal use for a character he had in BoB. That is fact, and proven. Also proven is that the value of said T2 BP0s is laughable when comparing to the costs of, let's say, BoB's capital fleet, let alone their POSes and Outposts. So the actual gain for T20 or BoB was minimal at best.
Every other incidents of "cheating", including the "Goon Incident" were disproven.
The only question that remains is that: Are you somebody who accept that people (even DEVs can make mistakes) and give people a second unbiased chance, or are you one of those people who will hold a mistake into someones face till the end of times?
Your call.
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Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.