Long posts does not equal either complexity nor correctness. There are lots of errors in your statements, and your topic is not the least of them. Vanguard prove one thing and one thing only. I thought Shadowbane made it clear in its time, but I guess some have to hear it twice. Aiming at a niche market does not mean you can make a product of subpar quality and still succeed. Few trekkies buy the Enterprise made in clay for 500 dollars, thousands of people want Darth Vaders orignal helmet, but very few want his jockstrap made out of used Cleenex... And not too mane hardcore gamers in Vanguards case, or allout PvPers in Shadowbanes case, want a rushed out, subpar quality, halfmade game to play. IF developers and game companies took their responsibility to crate a product that is EXACTLY what is promised and not always trust the playersbaes and their will to forgive everything, then I am sure both a hardcore game and a full PvP game could be extremly succesful. But as long as they not only fall short of the expectations, but even miss the quality standard of the last 5+ years, then they cant expect anything but a failure.
I think you missed my point entirely. I'm not saying that there couldn't be a financially successful hardcore game. I'm saying that you can expect that there won't be one in development because nobody in their right mind will fund such an expensive development after the HSS Vanguard hit the iceberg.
**reads topic** When Vanguard Imploded it Killed Hardcore Gaming too...
No, I did not miss your point entrierly, I hit it perfectly on the mark, you just can't accept a discussion where you are wrong. Case closed, you are only arguing now, not discussing.
But what is hardcore gaming... is anyone !00% hardcore gamer. Is it a siding scale ? Dont market demogrpahics and what makes £££ change what hardcore is ? Do hardcore players change? Is it even good to be hardcore ? Is it good to be casual ? What are the pro's and cons ? Hardcore newb killer ? Hardcore self imposed rules players ? hardcore RP'ers ? hardcore grinders? Hardcore but I'll but some free gold ? Hardcore 24/7 ohmygod my kidneys have fallen out ?
Yeeeargh !
So often on here it seems we talk about concepts that have never really been defined. Someone define hardcore.... challenge... and I'l try and give an opinion. BUt hell untill them enjoy what you enjoy... get peeved by what peeves you off...
Interesting thread... However have to disagree with a fair wack of it. Firstly yes VG has taken a hit but it is far from dead. I may be one of the lucky ones that have pretty decent performance and have an active guild that actually enjoy what the game has to offer. I think we need to focus on the fact that LOTR is a different game which will appeal to different people. Even though I am a hardcore fan of the books and movies I will never play it or WOW for that matter. So VG does plug a gap imo. However I think the future of online gaming depends heavily on player input into the actual world. There are a few small examples where players can actually help develop or build in game cities etc. For example, imagine when you feel the orders you do for NPC's in VG or deliveries you do in EV E-Online etc. actually meant something? Imagine if you did orders for an npc to make bricks and you could actually see a city wall gradually get made and it showed its progress. This would have a massive affect on your sides strength etc.....I have only seen this in a small German game called 'Might Games', I saw players madly try and build the next space station to get an advantage of their enemies. I am amazed the idea has not been developed further. Having a real input in developing the world around you is essential for the long term success of the game imo.
Maybe I am more patient, I pretty much expect all mpog's to have a certain lvl of bugs for the first 12 months regardless.....
MMO's are the Hydra of gaming, cut one head off another one appears, Vanguard no doubt has failed but EQ is still going strong, I'm all for them shutting down VG and restarting it when it is truely ready, till this I'm waiting on Warhammer Online, I know its going to get a ton of (its a WoW clone) from all the players but is that a bad thing? if you can take something add to it make it more than it was, is'nt that just call evoultion or perhaps Mutation which ever it looks like it adds meaning to the PvP and RvR.
I'm afraid the days of the hardcore have ended with Vanguard.
Well, the end of days for such games is over, but only by large companies. Such games that you speak of will still be brought out to the market, by small or indie companies. Eve-Online by CCP is an example and I suspect we will see more of these companies down the line.
Large companies are going towards the mass-market approach, ala Blizzard's methodology. Yet, by so doing, this allows for other companies to go where the 900lbs gorillas do not.
The MMO market is still young and the Golden Age has yet to arrive.
As for Turbine once being an obscured company, in a certain point of view (as by Danbala) that is correct.
In the general public, Turbine was obscured. To the gamer community, Turbine was a known company.
An example:
Ask a person who doesn't play computer games to find out if he/she knows of or has heard of Worlds of Warcraft. If so, then ask that same person if he/she knows Asheron's Call.
doesn't turbine make DDO?
and um, i pray to God that there are no more companies LIKE ccp. maybe some indies that do well with their product, but, please God, not any more like ccp.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Not everyone wants to play a game like WoW, LoTRO, or EQ2.
Not everyone wants to play a sci-fi game.
Some people want to play a game like EQ, Eve, or VG. These kinds of games aren't going to attract the magority of gamers.
If you don't enjoy the style of gameplay that VG offers that's cool. Making statements that a game that you don't enjoy will kill a particullar genre, or that developers wont make anymore games like it is pretty narrowminded and self centered. As is believing that a game shouldn't be playable for those that enjoy it because you didn't.
They don't stop making fantasy based movies because they aren't as big a box office draw as suspence thrillers.
Vanguards failure at the box-office has little to do with style and everything to do with execution and content (or lack thereof). It would be a mistake for developers to think that consumers are not interested in Everquest style games (hard to compare with EVE as EVE is a sandbox and Vanguard is not) just because vanguard failed because vanguard failed not because it had a "hardcore style" or because it was "to much like classic everquest", vanguard failed because it was a bad unfinished product, and bad unfinished products will always have trouble getting consumer interest wether they are disney style happy games or wide open hardcore sandboxes.
This line of thinking that people are turned off by vanguard because it is supposed to be to hardcore or to "deep" for them is really idiotic. A bad looking for group system that makes even LOTRO like a group players heaven, an empty world lacking any form of life or varied content, a terrible graphics engine that even on highest settings on the best computer manages to look "lacklustre" at best, completely imbalanced classes at launch, no tools at all that favour community building or roleplaying, thats the kind of stuff that is driving people away from vanguard. Not the harsh death penalties, the massive grinds or anything like that.
The OP is correct as much as the so called "hardcore" don't like, you are a puny niche, thats all. It has without a doupt been proven, don't expect $30 million dollar flops to be launched at you anymore, but maybe a $3 million dollar game might succeed.
A small niche hardcore game is just what the genre needs, and Vanguard can fill that! That is up to SOE to fulfill, now the question is can SOE do it? The game has some potential left, not 500k subscribers type but a chance to fill a niche that needs to be filled. EQ1 is going to one expansion a year how about Vanguard get what used to be the other expansion slot? Get the game hopping, fix the memory leak, add more and more raiding? The ball is now in SOE's court.
People are leaving Vanguard NOT BECAUSE IT IS HARDCORE BUT BECAUSE IT IS UNFINISHED AND BROKE.
There are hundreds of thousands of people who love challenging games, potentially even more then a million, but no one wants to play an unfinished piece of junk, devoid of soul and content. It's really that simple.
Wisdom too often never comes, and so one ought not to reject it merely because it comes late. With that in mind, let's face it: Vanguard marks the end of EQ style gaming. This isn't about fairness, this is about reality. Although I happen to like many of the ideas in the game, I still recognize that Vanguard is a stillborn mess that could be the most public and epic failure of a AAA title in quite some time. It is the Waterworld of gaming. It's the kind of failure that resonates throughout an industry. Worse yet, it is a failure that has happened right next door to the resounding success of Lord of the Rings Online. LotRo has been a wild overnight hit that has made a somewhat obscure gaming company, Turbine, into a developer in the same league with Blizzard. It is even on track to become of the most successful MMO games of all time. It may even end up one of the most successful PC games of all time. I liked Vanguard before it died. But that really doesn't make make much of a difference. What is the lesson the industry is likely to draw from this? Fairly or not, Vanguard has been pegged as the "hardcore" game. A "harsh" death penalty, long travel, massive grinds and no instancing were supposed to be its selling points. Those points simply did not sell but instead flopped with a industry-wide thud. And then its company imploded and its lead designer started talking about how much he wanted to cry. A car accident at the circus. Who couldn't stop and gawk? Some people might argue that the failure was not due to the feature set but instead due to the performance issues. They may be right. (Performance issue are ultimately what drove me away). But ultimately it won't matter. These features and concepts are now tainted because no investor knows for sure what made the game so unattractive to consumers and no investor will want to take the chance that they repeat Vanguard's failure. In direct contrast, LotRo's massive success rides on features like easy travel, immediate accessibility, swift leveling, clever use of instancing and practically no death penalty. Where do you honestly think the smart money will be played? Where would you place your bets? As far as the future of Vanguard - it is not with the hardcore. Smed might give us lip service to keep us around, but we are no longer a demographically significant part of the marketplace. Over the past three years Sony has been forced to the sidelines while companies like Blizzard and Turbine raced right past them. At one point SOE was the 800 gorilla in MMOs. Now they are a marginal player fighting for the scraps at the table of the big two. Do you think that Sony is happy with that state of affairs? The Sony corporation is still reeling for some seriously wrong-headed corporate decisions (PS3, HD format wars, PSP) and is hemorrhaging money. I'm fairly certain that they can not afford to have SOE sitting around catering to a fringe part of the market place. They need SOE to reassume its place as market leader - especially now that online gaming has become such a significant revue stream. Blizzard is now floating Vivendi's entertainment division. You can bet that Sony Entertainment is salivating for a piece of that action. You can also bet that whatever changes SOE makes to Vanguard it will be with an eye toward drawing it that gigantic contingent of players that SOE is not currently reaching with its EQ properties and derivative works. I'm afraid the days of the hardcore have ended with Vanguard.
Aye, it's the death of a mindset for sure, one for which I personally mourn. The very people who founded this hobby and believed in it have been thrown out in pursuit of the console minded gamer.
It's all casual fast food base common demoninater gaming for 8 year olds from here on in.
Maybe the indie dev market will save the people that founded this genre, but don't expect the big budgets. The MMORPG market, now it has hit the mainstream, has gone exactly the same way of the music and film indusrty.
Think of UO as the punk era, EQ as New Wave, and LoTR as Pop.
Of course, both those other markets have come around to the 'alt' being mainstream once more... maybe the MMORPG market will do as well.. In 20 years or so of course
I don't agree. Everyone knows Vanguard failed because it was released with almost no content, no immersive qualities, and terrible technical bugs. Vanguard didn't fail because it was "hardcore", not matter what loose definition you give to "hardcore"
I don't agree. Everyone knows Vanguard failed because it was released with almost no content, no immersive qualities, and terrible technical bugs. Vanguard didn't fail because it was "hardcore", not matter what loose definition you give to "hardcore"
Define 'failure'. In case you didn't check, the game is still in operation. There's also a ton of content in the game for all but end-game levels. Max. level content does not define how good a game is. The problem, I believe, is that the content is largely tedious and lack-lustre. Vanguard has potential, is beautiful in many ways, is quite immersive, but has next to zero character.
No... define the difference to me of unrealised potentiol and failiure?
When this game died, ans it HAS died, it sent out a undeniable message that the WoW model rules.
The age of the AAA hardcore (read 'hardcore' as 'challenging', 'social', and 'deep') game is gone. Maybe not for good, but for the next 5-10 years at least.
No... define the difference to me of unrealised potentiol and failiure? When this game died, ans it HAS died, it sent out a undeniable message that the WoW model rules. The age of the AAA hardcore (read 'hardcore' as 'challenging', 'social', and 'deep') game is gone. Maybe not for good, but for the next 5-10 years at least.
I dunno, I still stand in the middle ground. First, I dont think LOTRO or EQ2 ar that casual or console-easy as some people suggest. EQ2 for instance is in many ways and places challanging enough. Not as VG, but not as easy as some suggest either. I think those balanced difficulty games will always exist. Besides, I dont think WOW is that easy either. It basically has just less tedium, tho thats surely a matter of personal taste.
One of my eye openers was this: I was playing EQ2 for about 2+ years. I was used to 4-8 hours camping boss mob respawns in EQ2 and have some VERY grim memories of camping a named fish 4 hours, only to see it stolen and then camping another 4 hours. Back then, I thought MMOs were always like that. I never really questioned it. Then I came to WOW. And in Goldshire, I witnessed just someone killing that named Gnoll, and I thought "dammit, now what"? Only to see him respawn 5 minutes later. It was a revelation to me. Waiting 4++ hours NEVER was fun. I did it because there was no alternative when I played EQ2. I am really no WOW fan, but they did a lot of things right and I hope we NEVER fall back behind that going back into EQ1-age gaming again. Its is simply hilarious to assume the fun is heightened by camping hours and days or such shit, which are only time-sinks and nothing else.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
WOW model is the best? No the only reason it's done sooo well is cause it's Blizzard and theres fanbois.
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SWG - PrePub9 Jedi mastered all professions - June 26th 2003 > Nov 15th 2005 EVE Online - 24 million SP - May 6th 2003 > Early 2005 PlanetSide - BR20 CR5 - May 23rd 2003 > Sept 2003
To start I tested on both games as many did. And I have played nearly every MMO on this gamelist in here. Lengths vary from 1 day to 3 yrs. One day being games like RF(clones and poor ones), to three years for games such as UO(original and player driven).
Now after so recently playing WoW/EQ and many more, like every other player I got burnt out quick on lame quests the constant grinds and piss poor communitys I was ready for a change.
I welcomed the beta pass to VG, an opportunity to not only to see the new game... but a chance to see how well the devs and the game handle the problems that naturaly arise through this process and how quickly they are corrected. Now from the start I thought the game looked pretty good, albeit a little clone like. Lots of customization, once again the chance to own land and sail arround the world, not to mention fly arround it now too. But qiuckly the obvious started to dawn on me, this is gonna be another grind fest like endgame WoW and I do not have the time nor the inclination to do it again ...I just want to be able to log in and have fun without having to worry about how much I am getting behind because I have a life...
Then the straw drop was when I noticed that I had made a char for each class/race and had yet to be able to complete one quest chain(same part broke for weeks), and it was the last day of beta... Needless to say not many of us testers were too thrilled about the pending release a few days later. And that chance they had to show how progress on the game was gonna be, they failed miserably in my book. They showed me that it was all about the Benjamins for them and the customers Bendinova. Not happening.
Then I get beta pass for LoTR I thought great timing! I love LoTR, I will give it a shot. I log in and I see crappy char models everyone looking the same with the same crap armor and fugly body styles and nearly threw up.... But I held that down and pressed on. I liked the titles the fellowships and the monster play those were pretty cool...BUT once again we have the same grind and lame quests that we have all come to expect from MMO's today. And once again I knew right off their was no way in hell I was gonna throw away a year to max a char that I will have no part of once the game inevetably becomes tedious then stagnant like all the rest.
I felt overall that VG was a better game, nowhere near finished, but better as far as what they brought to the table that was new or missing from MMO's in todays age. Not that LoTR was bad but it was just TOO much of the same old IMO, credit being the game was less buggy and nearly complete(obviously beter management). TBH I figured once VG finaly got out of beta(from what I read it's still in it) it would out sell LoTR in a heart beat.
Either way it dosen't matter to me how they do I won't be buying eithe one. I think they are both too much like WoW clones and am looking for something with more depth and less grind. More community driven like UO was.
I honestly thought Vanguard might have been close if they put less emphasis on the grind and more on developing a bond with the community you are emersing yourself in the games would be alot more interesting. They got a whole housing system that is gonna be wasted. All you can do is build it but it can't be tore down... so me and my group of friends have nothing to worry about from raids from rival nations in the later game. The stupid lame quests should be replaced with quests like "this caravan of supplies need to be taken to this town on the border their defences are taking a big hit from the constant attacks from this neighbor, we need you to protect it from raiders(other actual players) that are trying to cut off their supplies." But those supplies better dam well actualy be needed at that point in time and actualy be used by that town!!! That town should give crafters quests to fortify defences or upgrade existing buildings with (constantly) newly added designs(possibly player made)... instead of quests to make a chair out of uber rare bubbleishious trees that grow in timbuktu!!!
I don't know mabe I expect too much from the industry of today, but I would have thought that we would atleast be able to sit down in game a write a book like the way we could if we felt like it in UO. Seems like they are taking steps back in one way (depth) as they step forward in another(graphics). If that is the trade off give me a ugly ass great game to play any day(I still play UO off and on).
Pull it together all you MMO companies out there, players know what you are capable of and that games don't have to be forceably drawn out with grinds and pointless menial tasks to lengthen subscription times, you just have to put the effort and the dedication in the game that has been overlooked for the mighty dollar in the past few years. Then the money just comes... Just ask UO, their still kickin. Wonder why?
SO did VG kill Hardcore.... Hell no not IMO, they just killed themselves with poor decision making/planing and not listening to their community of testers. If anything this should show to the industry that players are getting sick of the same of crap and we want something that will hold our attention without the needless wastes of time and emmersion killers like grinding and those lame quests. And in the end that comes down to player driven end game that dosent take you a year to reach or be an effective part of the community.
And one final thing, I see lots of battles now days I see players getting one hit kills, thats cool and all but where is the fun in that and what is the point? Why waste the time with all the animations and all the artwork and all the code nessairy if you are gonna be done with it in a split second...? Imagine one of those stupid lame quests to go get 20 claws from a Lion. Now imagine you actualy have to hunt to find the dam thing out in the wild (thier not in packs hanging out next to the town awaiting their slaughter). Then once you find one a friggin battle ensues that gets your dam heart pumping so hard your shaking so bad you can barely hit the keys right!!!! And once you kill the beast(if your were lucky/skilled) you cut the dam claws off one by one and take all 20 back to the guy in one hunting session. As killing one lion (in the setting of these games) with a sword/bow and carrying a limited supply of food and gear one lion would/should be considered a good hunt.
Check out this hunt 5 idiots with guns vs one lion... then imagine those fools using swords and bow and arrows.... LOL I dont think it would have gone quite so well for them!! I want excitement in my games damnit!!
And so ya know I wish the lion would have ripped his friggin throat out(I hate animal cruelty), or he should have been fighting it with a sword... then I would respect him. As is I think he is a coward.
WOW model is the best? No the only reason it's done sooo well is cause it's Blizzard and theres fanbois.
You misread what I said. I SAID there will always be other, more difficult MMOs than WOW, but some things are revealed as merely tedious, and THIS PARTICULAR impact of WOW will not be made undone, at least for nothing but niche MMOs. Pls really read what I say, not what you interpret into what I say.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Vanguard has nothing to do with hardcore gaming. The first thing I saw when I logged into BETA was a quest NPC telling me exactly where to go and what to do. Vanguard is just a poorly designed, developed and implemented game. There is a huge market for hardcore players. Once each developer fails at delivering a WoW clone they may start to think outsode the box again and eventually we will get our EQ1 successor. So far the market is flodded with crap. Thankfully, there are companies who already are willing to break the mold.
WAR is coming!
Pre-emptive strike: Because people will call WAR a WoW clone as usual understand this: Until I get xp from killing enemy players WoW and WAR have nothing in common.
Vanguard has nothing to do with hardcore gaming. The first thing I saw when I logged into BETA was a quest NPC telling me exactly where to go and what to do. Vanguard is just a poorly designed, developed and implemented game. There is a huge market for hardcore players. Once each developer fails at delivering a WoW clone they may start to think outsode the box again and eventually we will get our EQ1 successor. So far the market is flodded with crap. Thankfully, there are companies who already are willing to break the mold. WAR is coming! Pre-emptive strike: Because people will call WAR a WoW clone as usual understand this: Until I get xp from killing enemy players WoW and WAR have nothing in common.
What makes you think that WH will be any different in the category of "not sucking at launch"?
I mean everyone is getting hyped up over WH and AoC but I bet you a million dollars to one that you will be beta testing those game for 8 mos after launch just like VGSOH. I'm notincing a trend among each hack and slash MMO game coming out, developers showing 3-5 minutes of their good code with Griffons and Wyverns flying around and then not having the stuff at launch.
I don't think anygame coming out will be good at launch or even for that fact, as good as the dev blogs say they are (just not buying that anymore).
Vanguard has nothing to do with hardcore gaming. The first thing I saw when I logged into BETA was a quest NPC telling me exactly where to go and what to do. Vanguard is just a poorly designed, developed and implemented game. There is a huge market for hardcore players. Once each developer fails at delivering a WoW clone they may start to think outsode the box again and eventually we will get our EQ1 successor. So far the market is flodded with crap. Thankfully, there are companies who already are willing to break the mold. WAR is coming! Pre-emptive strike: Because people will call WAR a WoW clone as usual understand this: Until I get xp from killing enemy players WoW and WAR have nothing in common.
Those who really take the time to study the system behind WAR will know it has little to do with WOW, maybe save the similar target audience.
I dunno what you define as hardcore. I define it as a game play style I associate with EQ1 and UO in 1999 with lots to time-sinks and a level of tedium, maybe male teens enjoy because they have something to boast about, just as they boast about the number of beat-up they were in, or the number of strong alcohol drinks they could stand. "Cool, lool I died and lost everything again, but I stick to it, becaus look what am man I am not to quit this tedious rubbish." I am sure it has something to do with "prooving yourself what a hard man you are." I am by age an mentality opaque to such things, but those who need it... *shrug* each to his.
I just feel for many people those days are past.
Oh and compared to any other recent MMO Vanguard IS quite hardcore, it is much more tedious, unforgiving and time consuming to get even the smallest gain than alomst any other current MMO, maybe outside of Asia grinders. So yes IT IS hardcore. And NO WOW is NOT the only model, but it has made some good things.
Why is it always absolutes? WOW is either entirely great or entirely trash. VG is doomed or VG is great. I dont understand that kind of thinking. Its always features and details. People lacking the patience to look at details should really not make verdicts on games. Or on anything.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Vanguard has nothing to do with hardcore gaming. The first thing I saw when I logged into BETA was a quest NPC telling me exactly where to go and what to do. Vanguard is just a poorly designed, developed and implemented game. There is a huge market for hardcore players. Once each developer fails at delivering a WoW clone they may start to think outsode the box again and eventually we will get our EQ1 successor. So far the market is flodded with crap. Thankfully, there are companies who already are willing to break the mold. WAR is coming! Pre-emptive strike: Because people will call WAR a WoW clone as usual understand this: Until I get xp from killing enemy players WoW and WAR have nothing in common.
What makes you think that WH will be any different in the category of "not sucking at launch"?
For starters "games sucking at launch" isn't all that common anymore in MMOs. The only 2 bad launches I've been a part of were AO and VG. Games I played at launch that were "good" were EQ1, DDO, DAoC, and games that had exceptional launches were CoH/CoV, WoW, E&B and lately LOTRO. So I dunno were you are getting your info from.
Also, WAR just recently got a major funding boost that gave Mythic a few extra months of development time to "get it right" You know the exact opposite of SOE forcing VG out the door.
WAR will have an outstanding launch. Why? Because games that don't have good launches these days fail (see VG). Blizzard knew that, Turbine knew it and Mythic knows it too. Just because SOE doesn't have a clue doesn't mean noone else does.
In direct contrast, LotRo's massive success rides on features like easy travel, immediate accessibility, swift leveling, clever use of instancing and practically no death penalty. Where do you honestly think the smart money will be played? Where would you place your bets?
The problem with LOTRO is exactly why its so popular, its so easy that you will be done with the game within several months... I don't see any long term staying power with this game... I think in the short term it will be a good success, but the long term seems iffy IMO.
As far as being one of the great PC games of all time.... Well I think your taking a giant leap of faith on that statement..... There is not much difference between LOTRO and WoW.... Not sure why anyone playing WoW would jump ship to play a game thats basicaly the same...
Turbine has a long way to go if it wants to be in the same ranks of Blizzard.... Blizzard has yet to make a bad game... Everything they touch turns to gold...
One thing I will agree with you is that Vanguard is a sinking ship.... It's a shame actually... Vanguard had a lot features I look for in a MMO, but they didnt have a chance to finish them before launching.... For awhile there it seem like people were giving Vanguard a second chance, there seemed to me more people playing, then SOE took over and it seems a LOT of people quit the game... I see teh same people and hardly ever see anyone new, and odds are if I do see someone new it will be someone's alt...
Im done with MMO's until Tabula Rasa releases... I'm hoping this game gives me a new experience....
The problem with LOTRO is exactly why its so popular, its so easy that you will be done with the game within several months... I don't see any long term staying power with this game... I think in the short term it will be a good success, but the long term seems iffy IMO.
Didn't people say the same thing about WoW? If anything, WoW has increased in subs consistently since launch. I think the idea of grinding to retain customers is an archaic concept. Fun retains customers. Grinds and time sinks do not.
It is my opinion that hardcore gamers are a niche community that cannot be relied upon by a major budget game. It's like spending $30 million on roleplayers. There just isn't enough return for the investment.
Comments
**reads topic** When Vanguard Imploded it Killed Hardcore Gaming too...
No, I did not miss your point entrierly, I hit it perfectly on the mark, you just can't accept a discussion where you are wrong. Case closed, you are only arguing now, not discussing.
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Anatomy of a Fanboi
This is you.
Yeeeargh !
So often on here it seems we talk about concepts that have never really been defined. Someone define hardcore.... challenge... and I'l try and give an opinion. BUt hell untill them enjoy what you enjoy... get peeved by what peeves you off...
Interesting thread... However have to disagree with a fair wack of it. Firstly yes VG has taken a hit but it is far from dead. I may be one of the lucky ones that have pretty decent performance and have an active guild that actually enjoy what the game has to offer. I think we need to focus on the fact that LOTR is a different game which will appeal to different people. Even though I am a hardcore fan of the books and movies I will never play it or WOW for that matter. So VG does plug a gap imo. However I think the future of online gaming depends heavily on player input into the actual world. There are a few small examples where players can actually help develop or build in game cities etc. For example, imagine when you feel the orders you do for NPC's in VG or deliveries you do in EV E-Online etc. actually meant something? Imagine if you did orders for an npc to make bricks and you could actually see a city wall gradually get made and it showed its progress. This would have a massive affect on your sides strength etc.....I have only seen this in a small German game called 'Might Games', I saw players madly try and build the next space station to get an advantage of their enemies. I am amazed the idea has not been developed further. Having a real input in developing the world around you is essential for the long term success of the game imo.
Maybe I am more patient, I pretty much expect all mpog's to have a certain lvl of bugs for the first 12 months regardless.....
MMO's are the Hydra of gaming, cut one head off another one appears, Vanguard no doubt has failed but EQ is still going strong, I'm all for them shutting down VG and restarting it when it is truely ready, till this I'm waiting on Warhammer Online, I know its going to get a ton of (its a WoW clone) from all the players but is that a bad thing? if you can take something add to it make it more than it was, is'nt that just call evoultion or perhaps Mutation which ever it looks like it adds meaning to the PvP and RvR.
Large companies are going towards the mass-market approach, ala Blizzard's methodology. Yet, by so doing, this allows for other companies to go where the 900lbs gorillas do not.
The MMO market is still young and the Golden Age has yet to arrive.
As for Turbine once being an obscured company, in a certain point of view (as by Danbala) that is correct.
In the general public, Turbine was obscured. To the gamer community, Turbine was a known company.
An example:
Ask a person who doesn't play computer games to find out if he/she knows of or has heard of Worlds of Warcraft. If so, then ask that same person if he/she knows Asheron's Call.
doesn't turbine make DDO?
and um, i pray to God that there are no more companies LIKE ccp. maybe some indies that do well with their product, but, please God, not any more like ccp.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Not everyone wants to play a game like WoW, LoTRO, or EQ2.
Not everyone wants to play a sci-fi game.
Some people want to play a game like EQ, Eve, or VG. These kinds of games aren't going to attract the magority of gamers.
If you don't enjoy the style of gameplay that VG offers that's cool. Making statements that a game that you don't enjoy will kill a particullar genre, or that developers wont make anymore games like it is pretty narrowminded and self centered. As is believing that a game shouldn't be playable for those that enjoy it because you didn't.
They don't stop making fantasy based movies because they aren't as big a box office draw as suspence thrillers.
Wish Darkfall would release.
Vanguards failure at the box-office has little to do with style and everything to do with execution and content (or lack thereof). It would be a mistake for developers to think that consumers are not interested in Everquest style games (hard to compare with EVE as EVE is a sandbox and Vanguard is not) just because vanguard failed because vanguard failed not because it had a "hardcore style" or because it was "to much like classic everquest", vanguard failed because it was a bad unfinished product, and bad unfinished products will always have trouble getting consumer interest wether they are disney style happy games or wide open hardcore sandboxes.
This line of thinking that people are turned off by vanguard because it is supposed to be to hardcore or to "deep" for them is really idiotic. A bad looking for group system that makes even LOTRO like a group players heaven, an empty world lacking any form of life or varied content, a terrible graphics engine that even on highest settings on the best computer manages to look "lacklustre" at best, completely imbalanced classes at launch, no tools at all that favour community building or roleplaying, thats the kind of stuff that is driving people away from vanguard. Not the harsh death penalties, the massive grinds or anything like that.
The OP is correct as much as the so called "hardcore" don't like, you are a puny niche, thats all. It has without a doupt been proven, don't expect $30 million dollar flops to be launched at you anymore, but maybe a $3 million dollar game might succeed.
A small niche hardcore game is just what the genre needs, and Vanguard can fill that! That is up to SOE to fulfill, now the question is can SOE do it? The game has some potential left, not 500k subscribers type but a chance to fill a niche that needs to be filled. EQ1 is going to one expansion a year how about Vanguard get what used to be the other expansion slot? Get the game hopping, fix the memory leak, add more and more raiding? The ball is now in SOE's court.
People are leaving Vanguard NOT BECAUSE IT IS HARDCORE BUT BECAUSE IT IS UNFINISHED AND BROKE.
There are hundreds of thousands of people who love challenging games, potentially even more then a million, but no one wants to play an unfinished piece of junk, devoid of soul and content. It's really that simple.
Hard core game play killed hard core gaming itself.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
Aye, it's the death of a mindset for sure, one for which I personally mourn. The very people who founded this hobby and believed in it have been thrown out in pursuit of the console minded gamer.
It's all casual fast food base common demoninater gaming for 8 year olds from here on in.
Maybe the indie dev market will save the people that founded this genre, but don't expect the big budgets. The MMORPG market, now it has hit the mainstream, has gone exactly the same way of the music and film indusrty.
Think of UO as the punk era, EQ as New Wave, and LoTR as Pop.
Of course, both those other markets have come around to the 'alt' being mainstream once more... maybe the MMORPG market will do as well.. In 20 years or so of course
No... define the difference to me of unrealised potentiol and failiure?
When this game died, ans it HAS died, it sent out a undeniable message that the WoW model rules.
The age of the AAA hardcore (read 'hardcore' as 'challenging', 'social', and 'deep') game is gone. Maybe not for good, but for the next 5-10 years at least.
Learn to stand your arguments on their own two feet.
I dunno, I still stand in the middle ground. First, I dont think LOTRO or EQ2 ar that casual or console-easy as some people suggest. EQ2 for instance is in many ways and places challanging enough. Not as VG, but not as easy as some suggest either. I think those balanced difficulty games will always exist. Besides, I dont think WOW is that easy either. It basically has just less tedium, tho thats surely a matter of personal taste.
One of my eye openers was this: I was playing EQ2 for about 2+ years. I was used to 4-8 hours camping boss mob respawns in EQ2 and have some VERY grim memories of camping a named fish 4 hours, only to see it stolen and then camping another 4 hours. Back then, I thought MMOs were always like that. I never really questioned it. Then I came to WOW. And in Goldshire, I witnessed just someone killing that named Gnoll, and I thought "dammit, now what"? Only to see him respawn 5 minutes later. It was a revelation to me. Waiting 4++ hours NEVER was fun. I did it because there was no alternative when I played EQ2. I am really no WOW fan, but they did a lot of things right and I hope we NEVER fall back behind that going back into EQ1-age gaming again. Its is simply hilarious to assume the fun is heightened by camping hours and days or such shit, which are only time-sinks and nothing else.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
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SWG - PrePub9 Jedi mastered all professions - June 26th 2003 > Nov 15th 2005
EVE Online - 24 million SP - May 6th 2003 > Early 2005
PlanetSide - BR20 CR5 - May 23rd 2003 > Sept 2003
To start I tested on both games as many did. And I have played nearly every MMO on this gamelist in here. Lengths vary from 1 day to 3 yrs. One day being games like RF(clones and poor ones), to three years for games such as UO(original and player driven).
Now after so recently playing WoW/EQ and many more, like every other player I got burnt out quick on lame quests the constant grinds and piss poor communitys I was ready for a change.
I welcomed the beta pass to VG, an opportunity to not only to see the new game... but a chance to see how well the devs and the game handle the problems that naturaly arise through this process and how quickly they are corrected. Now from the start I thought the game looked pretty good, albeit a little clone like. Lots of customization, once again the chance to own land and sail arround the world, not to mention fly arround it now too. But qiuckly the obvious started to dawn on me, this is gonna be another grind fest like endgame WoW and I do not have the time nor the inclination to do it again ...I just want to be able to log in and have fun without having to worry about how much I am getting behind because I have a life...
Then the straw drop was when I noticed that I had made a char for each class/race and had yet to be able to complete one quest chain(same part broke for weeks), and it was the last day of beta... Needless to say not many of us testers were too thrilled about the pending release a few days later. And that chance they had to show how progress on the game was gonna be, they failed miserably in my book. They showed me that it was all about the Benjamins for them and the customers Bendinova. Not happening.
Then I get beta pass for LoTR I thought great timing! I love LoTR, I will give it a shot. I log in and I see crappy char models everyone looking the same with the same crap armor and fugly body styles and nearly threw up.... But I held that down and pressed on. I liked the titles the fellowships and the monster play those were pretty cool...BUT once again we have the same grind and lame quests that we have all come to expect from MMO's today. And once again I knew right off their was no way in hell I was gonna throw away a year to max a char that I will have no part of once the game inevetably becomes tedious then stagnant like all the rest.
I felt overall that VG was a better game, nowhere near finished, but better as far as what they brought to the table that was new or missing from MMO's in todays age. Not that LoTR was bad but it was just TOO much of the same old IMO, credit being the game was less buggy and nearly complete(obviously beter management). TBH I figured once VG finaly got out of beta(from what I read it's still in it) it would out sell LoTR in a heart beat.
Either way it dosen't matter to me how they do I won't be buying eithe one. I think they are both too much like WoW clones and am looking for something with more depth and less grind. More community driven like UO was.
I honestly thought Vanguard might have been close if they put less emphasis on the grind and more on developing a bond with the community you are emersing yourself in the games would be alot more interesting. They got a whole housing system that is gonna be wasted. All you can do is build it but it can't be tore down... so me and my group of friends have nothing to worry about from raids from rival nations in the later game. The stupid lame quests should be replaced with quests like "this caravan of supplies need to be taken to this town on the border their defences are taking a big hit from the constant attacks from this neighbor, we need you to protect it from raiders(other actual players) that are trying to cut off their supplies." But those supplies better dam well actualy be needed at that point in time and actualy be used by that town!!! That town should give crafters quests to fortify defences or upgrade existing buildings with (constantly) newly added designs(possibly player made)... instead of quests to make a chair out of uber rare bubbleishious trees that grow in timbuktu!!!
I don't know mabe I expect too much from the industry of today, but I would have thought that we would atleast be able to sit down in game a write a book like the way we could if we felt like it in UO. Seems like they are taking steps back in one way (depth) as they step forward in another(graphics). If that is the trade off give me a ugly ass great game to play any day(I still play UO off and on).
Pull it together all you MMO companies out there, players know what you are capable of and that games don't have to be forceably drawn out with grinds and pointless menial tasks to lengthen subscription times, you just have to put the effort and the dedication in the game that has been overlooked for the mighty dollar in the past few years. Then the money just comes... Just ask UO, their still kickin. Wonder why?
SO did VG kill Hardcore.... Hell no not IMO, they just killed themselves with poor decision making/planing and not listening to their community of testers. If anything this should show to the industry that players are getting sick of the same of crap and we want something that will hold our attention without the needless wastes of time and emmersion killers like grinding and those lame quests. And in the end that comes down to player driven end game that dosent take you a year to reach or be an effective part of the community.
And one final thing, I see lots of battles now days I see players getting one hit kills, thats cool and all but where is the fun in that and what is the point? Why waste the time with all the animations and all the artwork and all the code nessairy if you are gonna be done with it in a split second...? Imagine one of those stupid lame quests to go get 20 claws from a Lion. Now imagine you actualy have to hunt to find the dam thing out in the wild (thier not in packs hanging out next to the town awaiting their slaughter). Then once you find one a friggin battle ensues that gets your dam heart pumping so hard your shaking so bad you can barely hit the keys right!!!! And once you kill the beast(if your were lucky/skilled) you cut the dam claws off one by one and take all 20 back to the guy in one hunting session. As killing one lion (in the setting of these games) with a sword/bow and carrying a limited supply of food and gear one lion would/should be considered a good hunt.
Check out this hunt 5 idiots with guns vs one lion... then imagine those fools using swords and bow and arrows.... LOL I dont think it would have gone quite so well for them!! I want excitement in my games damnit!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1FivamFXms&mode=related&search=
And so ya know I wish the lion would have ripped his friggin throat out(I hate animal cruelty), or he should have been fighting it with a sword... then I would respect him. As is I think he is a coward.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Vanguard has nothing to do with hardcore gaming. The first thing I saw when I logged into BETA was a quest NPC telling me exactly where to go and what to do. Vanguard is just a poorly designed, developed and implemented game. There is a huge market for hardcore players. Once each developer fails at delivering a WoW clone they may start to think outsode the box again and eventually we will get our EQ1 successor. So far the market is flodded with crap. Thankfully, there are companies who already are willing to break the mold.
WAR is coming!
Pre-emptive strike: Because people will call WAR a WoW clone as usual understand this: Until I get xp from killing enemy players WoW and WAR have nothing in common.
What makes you think that WH will be any different in the category of "not sucking at launch"?
I mean everyone is getting hyped up over WH and AoC but I bet you a million dollars to one that you will be beta testing those game for 8 mos after launch just like VGSOH. I'm notincing a trend among each hack and slash MMO game coming out, developers showing 3-5 minutes of their good code with Griffons and Wyverns flying around and then not having the stuff at launch.
I don't think anygame coming out will be good at launch or even for that fact, as good as the dev blogs say they are (just not buying that anymore).
Those who really take the time to study the system behind WAR will know it has little to do with WOW, maybe save the similar target audience.
I dunno what you define as hardcore. I define it as a game play style I associate with EQ1 and UO in 1999 with lots to time-sinks and a level of tedium, maybe male teens enjoy because they have something to boast about, just as they boast about the number of beat-up they were in, or the number of strong alcohol drinks they could stand. "Cool, lool I died and lost everything again, but I stick to it, becaus look what am man I am not to quit this tedious rubbish." I am sure it has something to do with "prooving yourself what a hard man you are." I am by age an mentality opaque to such things, but those who need it... *shrug* each to his.
I just feel for many people those days are past.
Oh and compared to any other recent MMO Vanguard IS quite hardcore, it is much more tedious, unforgiving and time consuming to get even the smallest gain than alomst any other current MMO, maybe outside of Asia grinders. So yes IT IS hardcore. And NO WOW is NOT the only model, but it has made some good things.
Why is it always absolutes? WOW is either entirely great or entirely trash. VG is doomed or VG is great. I dont understand that kind of thinking. Its always features and details. People lacking the patience to look at details should really not make verdicts on games. Or on anything.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
What makes you think that WH will be any different in the category of "not sucking at launch"?
For starters "games sucking at launch" isn't all that common anymore in MMOs. The only 2 bad launches I've been a part of were AO and VG. Games I played at launch that were "good" were EQ1, DDO, DAoC, and games that had exceptional launches were CoH/CoV, WoW, E&B and lately LOTRO. So I dunno were you are getting your info from.
Also, WAR just recently got a major funding boost that gave Mythic a few extra months of development time to "get it right" You know the exact opposite of SOE forcing VG out the door.
WAR will have an outstanding launch. Why? Because games that don't have good launches these days fail (see VG). Blizzard knew that, Turbine knew it and Mythic knows it too. Just because SOE doesn't have a clue doesn't mean noone else does.
The problem with LOTRO is exactly why its so popular, its so easy that you will be done with the game within several months... I don't see any long term staying power with this game... I think in the short term it will be a good success, but the long term seems iffy IMO.
As far as being one of the great PC games of all time.... Well I think your taking a giant leap of faith on that statement..... There is not much difference between LOTRO and WoW.... Not sure why anyone playing WoW would jump ship to play a game thats basicaly the same...
Turbine has a long way to go if it wants to be in the same ranks of Blizzard.... Blizzard has yet to make a bad game... Everything they touch turns to gold...
One thing I will agree with you is that Vanguard is a sinking ship.... It's a shame actually... Vanguard had a lot features I look for in a MMO, but they didnt have a chance to finish them before launching.... For awhile there it seem like people were giving Vanguard a second chance, there seemed to me more people playing, then SOE took over and it seems a LOT of people quit the game... I see teh same people and hardly ever see anyone new, and odds are if I do see someone new it will be someone's alt...
Im done with MMO's until Tabula Rasa releases... I'm hoping this game gives me a new experience....
It is my opinion that hardcore gamers are a niche community that cannot be relied upon by a major budget game. It's like spending $30 million on roleplayers. There just isn't enough return for the investment.