When Vanguard imploded it did NOT kill hardcore gaming.
Vanguard was touted as a "hardcore"game but it simply wasn't. Ultimately it is a game with a claim to be many things it simply isn't. If you have played Vanguard you would understand that there is nothing "hardcore"about it. It is an unengaging simplistic grindfest that was poorly realised and poorly developed.
You are free to have that opinion (and I might even agree with it). But the fact is that it was advertised as the hardcore game by the designers and embraced as such by the majoirty of the fan base. (Even SOE's Smedly has called it that since the take over). Its pretty much impossible to revise that conventional wisdom now.
I am afraid that the industry "suits" will give up on the EQI style of gaming as well and view Vanguard as a failure because it was a hardcore game. What Vanguard offered wasn't the problem though. I still believe a hardcore game could make money , maybe not Blizzard money but significant cash just the same.
I think it's been very clear to anyone who looks around that VG suffered from much much more than a steep death penalty. Mismangement, bugs galore, horrible performance on most systems and numerous things that we're wrong thruout beta and on into release. If you are going to do a game that is harder to play and harder to get into then you at least want two things:
1) Smooth, enjoyable gameplay
2) Content to make you enjoy chasing that golden carrot.
Vanguard felt tedious because nothing worked right. Seldom could you tell if something was hard because it was supposed to be hard or hard because it was some bug the developers never addressed.
A hardcore game could suceed again. I wasn't exactly sitting around in 2000 saying "Gee, I think I am the type of player who wants to grind 20-30 hours a week" but EQI got me doing it. Somebody just has to take the reigns and say "We will build a superior hardcore game". Brad said this but what he released wasn't anything close. We will soon see an influx of WOW and LoTR clones but somewhere theres a genius who will one day release a sandbox world that is tough, deep, huge and scary without it being a bug infested broken mess. Sigil and Vanguard just prolonged that game by not taking Microsoft's 30 million and turning out that triple A titile that they promised everyone. Money will not be thrown around like that again unless someone can prove they can produce.
Originally posted by Deathstiny Also, WAR just recently got a major funding boost that gave Mythic a few extra months of development time to "get it right" You know the exact opposite of SOE forcing VG out the door. WAR will have an outstanding launch. Why? Because games that don't have good launches these days fail (see VG). Blizzard knew that, Turbine knew it and Mythic knows it too. Just because SOE doesn't have a clue doesn't mean noone else does.
While I agree on the Mystic/War release theories you have the whole "It's SoE's fault for pushing VG out the door" is crap. Sigil pushed that button NOT SoE. Brad is the sole reason that game is what it is today and trying to put the blame on someone that pulled their ass out of the fire is just BS.
I really find it funny how people like to blame the big bad SoE for the MMO problems. SWG... that was LA and VG was crap way before SoE had anything to do with it.
Vanguard was far from hardcore. It also turned out to be alot different then what the Devs stated at the very begining of development. Then on top of that, they push out an incomplete, buggy game that takes a super cpu to run it well. What did they expect? If they would have stood by thier original ideas, released a non buggy game and a game that would acutally run well on most cpus, they would have had a successful long term MMO.
Also, WAR just recently got a major funding boost that gave Mythic a few extra months of development time to "get it right" You know the exact opposite of SOE forcing VG out the door.
WAR will have an outstanding launch. Why? Because games that don't have good launches these days fail (see VG). Blizzard knew that, Turbine knew it and Mythic knows it too. Just because SOE doesn't have a clue doesn't mean noone else does.
While I agree on the Mystic/War release theories you have the whole "It's SoE's fault for pushing VG out the door" is crap. Sigil pushed that button NOT SoE. Brad is the sole reason that game is what it is today and trying to put the blame on someone that pulled their ass out of the fire is just BS.
I really find it funny how people like to blame the big bad SoE for the MMO problems. SWG... that was LA and VG was crap way before SoE had anything to do with it.
Actually the whole "Its SoE's Fault for pushing VG out the door" isn't really crap. Yes Brad and Sigil mismanaged the development of the game, screwed up badly, but it "WAS" SoE that told VG staff they had to lauch when they did, simply, SoE wanted to recoup some of the money they put into the project and they weren't going to wait any longer to do it. Win, lose or draw, SoE set the launch date and would not allow Sigil to keep working on the game ( and yes its brad and his management teams fault the game was NO where near ready when it should have been). I'm sure you have read the "Ex-Sigil" employees interview, its been all over almost ever generic game site forums since it came out. In the interview he or she clearly states that "SoE didn't want to wait any longer and made them launch when they did". You can't blame them in a business sense for wanting to get some cash back for their investment, but you can blame them for not taking the condition of the game seriously enough to realize that they really hosed the consumers that purchased the game by doing this. You also have to know that SoE is notorious for launching EVERYTHING early. They did it with EQ II, and all of their expansions, the whole SWG debacle, and more. Its in their business startegy to "get it out the door no matter what, and use subscription revenue to finish whats not done". This shouldn't be excused because if it is, more and more developers will do it. I mean not only does SoE do it, they lie and hide the fact they are doing it (Can anyone remember the whole "Froglok" fiasco in EQ II?). So don't make it like SoE is the innocent entity they want you to think they are, because if you do, you're exactly the type of customer they want.
here is a snipett from the interview:
f13.net: Who set the release date?
Ex-Sigil: The release date was set as a result of SOE not wanting to fund the project any deeper without SOME revenue coming in...
f13.net: Surely no one thought this was ready for primetime. And what about the giant patches that appeared nearly daily?
Ex-Sigil: We couldn't control that. From what I was told by some on the design team, the sweeping changes were par for the course.
and here is the link to the whole article and it does state that mistakes were made ALL over the place:
Just want to ask something to the Turbine Fanboi aka OP.
Turbine release one "decent" game and all of a sudden there up with Blizzard? Get a grip.
Do know why people are playing LOTRO, really? Because it is new, people ALWAYS try new things out, a chance to become "The best" etc etc. Also because there is SFA else out at the moment.
LOTRO is a fad, nothing more. AoC + WAR will completely annihilate it. It will become like Lineage 2, decent game, but will only appeal to extremely dedicated fans.
I'm afraid the days of the hardcore have ended with Vanguard.
I ll spell it out for you.
V A N G U A R D W A S U N P L A Y A B L E
It has nothing to do with the game design.
If WoW crashed every 5 minutes, would you play it? I doubt it.
Would have spelled the end of casual games? I doubt that too.
Don't be too simplicistic with your "pulled out of my arse" theories.
You're statement wasn't any better.
VG has been playable since pre-release for me.
Exactly, for you, but not for me and I played 1 month after release.
Majority of people could not play the game decently.
You are one of the lucky ones, gratz............you won the lottery.
Have a look at all the various unofficial Forums, and you ll realise how the game engine is basically shit, plus add that the game was unfinished, plus add all the bugs.
You cannot judge a game design when the game itself has so many technical problems like Vanguard had.
Another thing no one has mentioned is the IP. Vanguard was a completely new and unknown world which also helped it tank a little bit more I think. Look at the biggest MMO's played or being developed:
EQ2
WoW
War
Conan
LOTRo
All had some previous recognition in the community.
Another thing no one has mentioned is the IP. Vanguard was a completely new and unknown world which also helped it tank a little bit more I think. Look at the biggest MMO's played or being developed:
EQ2 WoW War Conan LOTRo
All had some previous recognition in the community.
I agree for the most part but if they had tried harder to get the name out and if the Lore and storyline had been more in depth, word of mouth could've made Vanguard into another Norrath (EQ).
Telon had nothing going for it except a bunch of generic characters in a generic world. Why do these humans have doggy heads? Was it because of their diety, were they cursed, did they do some forbidden magic? Who knew....who cares? I know I personally would've loved to see a real story going on in Telon. I wonder if SOE will do anything with the quests or if they will simply fix bugs/performance before a big push? The nubee areas still could really use some love and polish to ingrain you into the world.
Another thing no one has mentioned is the IP. Vanguard was a completely new and unknown world which also helped it tank a little bit more I think. Look at the biggest MMO's played or being developed:
EQ2 WoW War Conan LOTRo
All had some previous recognition in the community.
I agree for the most part but if they had tried harder to get the name out and if the Lore and storyline had been more in depth, word of mouth could've made Vanguard into another Norrath (EQ).
Telon had nothing going for it except a bunch of generic characters in a generic world. Why do these humans have doggy heads? Was it because of their diety, were they cursed, did they do some forbidden magic? Who knew....who cares? I know I personally would've loved to see a real story going on in Telon. I wonder if SOE will do anything with the quests or if they will simply fix bugs/performance before a big push? The nubee areas still could really use some love and polish to ingrain you into the world.
It's explained in the quests.
There not from Telon. All I can remember, but the lore was there.
Nothing has killed hardcore MMOs, not that anyone has really given me an adequate description of what hardcore is. Most games will be getting 100k - 200k if they deviate from the style that WoW has created (easy 1-60, huge time sinks if you want to raid) and this should be enough to keep the game running and updated.
Another thing no one has mentioned is the IP. Vanguard was a completely new and unknown world which also helped it tank a little bit more I think. Look at the biggest MMO's played or being developed:
EQ2 WoW War Conan LOTRo
All had some previous recognition in the community.
I agree for the most part but if they had tried harder to get the name out and if the Lore and storyline had been more in depth, word of mouth could've made Vanguard into another Norrath (EQ).
Telon had nothing going for it except a bunch of generic characters in a generic world. Why do these humans have doggy heads? Was it because of their diety, were they cursed, did they do some forbidden magic? Who knew....who cares? I know I personally would've loved to see a real story going on in Telon. I wonder if SOE will do anything with the quests or if they will simply fix bugs/performance before a big push? The nubee areas still could really use some love and polish to ingrain you into the world.
It's explained in the quests.
There not from Telon. All I can remember, but the lore was there.
I played one from 1-12 and don't remember seeing anything about them. Some people don't care about that stuff, but for me it's those little touches in the starter city, the quests, the NPCs etc etc that get me stuck to a character and a world. My main in VG was an Orc and I remember that we fought with other Orcs and that we hated most other races but I never heard why in game. I recall reading a post way back on the main site about the Orcs going to war with the humans but since the main site no longer is working, that isn't common knowledge every player would get.
I loved in EQI that you picked a diety with your race to add flavor. I enjoyed that WOW actually had a little intro about each race before it dropped you into the world. I don't think VG even had an intro movie to set the flavor of the world?
To get back on the original topic, I think the little details and lore I mention are considered "carebear" and that most developers figure the hardcore crowd would be to busy grinding it out to stop and smell the roses so maybe that is why so few games have jumped on that bandwagon?
Originally posted by danbala LotRo has been a wild overnight hit that has made a somewhat obscure gaming company, Turbine, into a developer in the same league with Blizzard. It is even on track to become of the most successful MMO games of all time. It may even end up one of the most successful PC games of all time.
These statements are not accurate and do nothing but undermine whatever argument you are trying to make.
LotRo has been a wild overnight hit that has made a somewhat obscure gaming company, Turbine, into a developer in the same league with Blizzard. It is even on track to become of the most successful MMO games of all time. It may even end up one of the most successful PC games of all time.
These statements are not accurate and do nothing but undermine whatever argument you are trying to make.
Sorry if anything I reply to has been said before but I only read the last page and the first two pages.
Turbine hasn't been an obscure gaming company in most gamers minds for quite some time. If they didn't know Turbine developed Asheron's Call (possible given the age of the game and how greatly the MMO industry has grown since) they've likely heard of DDO (even if it was only bad things they heard).
As to Turbine being in the same league as Blizzard you're jumping the gun there by quite a bit. Do they have a successful MMO on their hands? Yes. Do they have the extremely well established reputation for solid game IPs and great quality that Blizzard has? Not by a long shot.
Neither is Turbine one of the 'Big 2' now. If you wanted to classify the various MMO companies into catagories based on their current position in the industry I'd probably break it down like so:
Top Tier:
Blizzard: WoW, Diablo II, and their numerous other non-MMO success stories put them pretty high
NCSoft: I'm honestly shocked by how infrequently people mention NCSoft. They've a sizable catalogue of MMO titles as well as two major successes (the Lineage Series & Guild Wars). Also the moderate success that is City of Heroes/Villians. Nowadays their catalogue might even outnumber (as far as number of titles) even SOE's catalogue.
Middle Tier:
SOE: Their position is debatable given their sizable catalogue of moderately to fairly successful titles, their LARGE capital pool, and several other factors. You could easily put these guys on the bottom of the top tier or the top of the middle but I'll put them here because the overall gamer community perception of SOE is nearly at an all-time low. We'll see if some of their new titles like The Agency can push them back into the upper echelons of MMO developers.
EA-Mythic: The upcoming WAR, Mythic's DAoC, and Ultima Online along with their large available pool of capital put these guys somewhere in the middle but we'll have to see if they can put out a few more DAoC quality games and less Earth and Beyond.
CCP: EVE Online has earned CCP plenty of acclaim but can they bring on and even larger success with the World of Darkness MMO? If they can translate some of the innovation they showed with EVE into a slightly more mainstream game with an established IP like WoD it could be a big success.
Turbine: Given the abysmal showing of DDO despite the massive appeal of that IP to tabletop nerds (like myself) Turbine must be thanking the gods to have landed LoTRO. Thankfully they developed a more complete (and fun) game with LoTRO.
Funcom: Anarchy Online isn't necessarily a bad game but it's not a major success in the industry. Age of Conan however looks like it could be. We'll see what happens.
Bottom Tier:
This is filled by developers that are developing games but don't have one out yet (Perpetual, Flying Labs Software, etc) or the more niche developers.
Now I'm sure I forgot a few but that's a pretty decent list. I'd like to note that any of those in the Middle Tier are only a few steps away from the top tier in my mind. SOE & EA are probably closest given just how much money they can throw into producing MULTIPLE MMOs at once if they so choose but the others only need to fill out their catalogue a little more or have one of their titles hit closer to the big titles. LoTRO could be well on it's way but we'll have to see.
Vanguard was touted as a "hardcore"game but it simply wasn't. Ultimately it is a game with a claim to be many things it simply isn't. If you have played Vanguard you would understand that there is nothing "hardcore"about it. It is an unengaging simplistic grindfest that was poorly realised and poorly developed.
There's a multi-page thread about this over at Silky Venom:
It was a response to the "Turbine into a developer in the same league with Blizzard" bit. Turbine is by no means in the same league with Blizzard though it might make it there if LoTRO continues to garner new subscriptions.
You might actually get some more interesting discussion if you didn't respond to every reply with 'WTF You talking bout Willis?'
Oh and as to Turbine's visibility in the gaming community they're revenue streams might have dried up but their name was still known to anyone that even halfway pays attention to MMOs. The DDO fiasco probably helped ensure people remembered their name even more given the hype that game receieved prior to launch.
I disagree that Vanguard is a total failure at this time... Ive played many of the MMO's that have come out since EQ1... Most I personally didnt find appealing... The only 2 I played for extended time (more than a month) was EQ1 (3 years), EQ2 (2 Years)... Vanguard has held me past the 1 month trail which gives it a good chance to get at least a 6 month play from me...
If SOE can remove some of the playability impediments for lower end systems and add more lands to explore, especially for the lvl 30+ crowd it has a real chance to become successful...
I think alot of the problem for these newer games is saturation... just go to the game list... there are so many choices at this point.
LOtRo has the benefit of a story Fan base as did WoW and this will naturally draw an initial base of players due to familiarity... For games who are out of the gate without a doormat it may take 6mo to a year before the potential of the game is established.
In my outsiders view. I dont see at this point how a non-established title (previously storied i.e WoW LOtRo) can make it financially unless grouped under one Entity with an already successful title, such as SOE with the already successful EQ1, and group of games under their Station pass suite. Which is another reason why Vanguard has a decent chance...
I'de be curious to get an unvarnished opinion (but dont expect its possible for a corporate officer) from a gaming exec on why they feel these games are fiancially viable unless pooled together under one entity to offset ealy losses and to give them exposer via a group of choices...
Very well written post (it's rara to see good grammar on the forums.)
But VG didn't fail because it was hardcore. It failed because it was broken, it had great and terrible graphics simultaneously, and it had an elitist community that nobody could stomach.
There is a large upswelling of hardcore gamers crying out for a good hardcore game with harsh death penalties, FFA PvP, corpse-looting, FPS combat, player housing, etc. We just want it to work.
LOTRO succeeded because it WORKED when it was released (but it might slowly change as more players start achieving the vacant upper levels with no content).
- Phos
AAH! A troll fire! Quick, pour some Kool-Aid on it!!!
Very well written post (it's rara to see good grammar on the forums.) But VG didn't fail because it was hardcore. It failed because it was broken, it had great and terrible graphics simultaneously, and it had an elitist community that nobody could stomach. There is a large upswelling of hardcore gamers crying out for a good hardcore game with harsh death penalties, FFA PvP, corpse-looting, FPS combat, player housing, etc. We just want it to work. LOTRO succeeded because it WORKED when it was released (but it might slowly change as more players start achieving the vacant upper levels with no content). - Phos
I'd tried to avoid suggesting that VG failed because it was hardcore. But this post was about public perception and when the biggest profile, most expensive "hardcore" game goes down in flames it has to effect which games get financed.
As far as LotRo goes, it seems to me the same things were said about WoW and look how that turned out. LotRo is so successful that the developers have already started pushing out expansions. The first one comes out Tuesday and includes end game content such as a raid (and also rep grinding). This sounds a lot like WOW's development to me.
By the way, what's up with LotRo already having raids as a casual game while VG has no raids in sight?
You have missed the point Hardcore isn't dead at all go play a good old MUD ... Dragonrealms now thats hardcore and fun.
Sadly not many Hardcore MMORPG's exist, too much effort for the masses. But hardcore games will exist just with low population games for sadists and people who like self harming.
Played Lotro for a week hit level 20 maxed ot all my trades and am seriously bored may as well go play a single player game no depth whatsoever.... Pretty though.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I think I understand what you're saying. You think that because Vanguard was pitched to financiers as a "hardcore game" (although it really isn't hardcore), that financiers will shy away from financing other future games categorized as "hardore?" I think you might have a point there, but I'm not in the world of finance and I wouldn't know how all that works. I would hope those responsible for getting and giving finance to games work on a more complex level than that!
Also, I really hope LOTRO is successful in fixing it's end-game content with this new expansion. It sounds like a working game with potential.
But I still say there is a huge thirst out there for a good hardcore MMO with death penalties, corpse looting, housing, boats, FFA PVP, FPS combat, real travel, etc. Such a game would capture my attention and be much more immersive than anything on the market now.
- Phos
AAH! A troll fire! Quick, pour some Kool-Aid on it!!!
Comments
I am afraid that the industry "suits" will give up on the EQI style of gaming as well and view Vanguard as a failure because it was a hardcore game. What Vanguard offered wasn't the problem though. I still believe a hardcore game could make money , maybe not Blizzard money but significant cash just the same.
I think it's been very clear to anyone who looks around that VG suffered from much much more than a steep death penalty. Mismangement, bugs galore, horrible performance on most systems and numerous things that we're wrong thruout beta and on into release. If you are going to do a game that is harder to play and harder to get into then you at least want two things:
1) Smooth, enjoyable gameplay
2) Content to make you enjoy chasing that golden carrot.
Vanguard felt tedious because nothing worked right. Seldom could you tell if something was hard because it was supposed to be hard or hard because it was some bug the developers never addressed.
A hardcore game could suceed again. I wasn't exactly sitting around in 2000 saying "Gee, I think I am the type of player who wants to grind 20-30 hours a week" but EQI got me doing it. Somebody just has to take the reigns and say "We will build a superior hardcore game". Brad said this but what he released wasn't anything close. We will soon see an influx of WOW and LoTR clones but somewhere theres a genius who will one day release a sandbox world that is tough, deep, huge and scary without it being a bug infested broken mess. Sigil and Vanguard just prolonged that game by not taking Microsoft's 30 million and turning out that triple A titile that they promised everyone. Money will not be thrown around like that again unless someone can prove they can produce.
I really can't disagree with any of your points.
While I agree on the Mystic/War release theories you have the whole "It's SoE's fault for pushing VG out the door" is crap. Sigil pushed that button NOT SoE. Brad is the sole reason that game is what it is today and trying to put the blame on someone that pulled their ass out of the fire is just BS.
I really find it funny how people like to blame the big bad SoE for the MMO problems. SWG... that was LA and VG was crap way before SoE had anything to do with it.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
While I agree on the Mystic/War release theories you have the whole "It's SoE's fault for pushing VG out the door" is crap. Sigil pushed that button NOT SoE. Brad is the sole reason that game is what it is today and trying to put the blame on someone that pulled their ass out of the fire is just BS.
I really find it funny how people like to blame the big bad SoE for the MMO problems. SWG... that was LA and VG was crap way before SoE had anything to do with it.
Actually the whole "Its SoE's Fault for pushing VG out the door" isn't really crap. Yes Brad and Sigil mismanaged the development of the game, screwed up badly, but it "WAS" SoE that told VG staff they had to lauch when they did, simply, SoE wanted to recoup some of the money they put into the project and they weren't going to wait any longer to do it. Win, lose or draw, SoE set the launch date and would not allow Sigil to keep working on the game ( and yes its brad and his management teams fault the game was NO where near ready when it should have been). I'm sure you have read the "Ex-Sigil" employees interview, its been all over almost ever generic game site forums since it came out. In the interview he or she clearly states that "SoE didn't want to wait any longer and made them launch when they did". You can't blame them in a business sense for wanting to get some cash back for their investment, but you can blame them for not taking the condition of the game seriously enough to realize that they really hosed the consumers that purchased the game by doing this. You also have to know that SoE is notorious for launching EVERYTHING early. They did it with EQ II, and all of their expansions, the whole SWG debacle, and more. Its in their business startegy to "get it out the door no matter what, and use subscription revenue to finish whats not done". This shouldn't be excused because if it is, more and more developers will do it. I mean not only does SoE do it, they lie and hide the fact they are doing it (Can anyone remember the whole "Froglok" fiasco in EQ II?). So don't make it like SoE is the innocent entity they want you to think they are, because if you do, you're exactly the type of customer they want.
here is a snipett from the interview:
f13.net: Who set the release date?
Ex-Sigil: The release date was set as a result of SOE not wanting to fund the project any deeper without SOME revenue coming in...
f13.net: Surely no one thought this was ready for primetime. And what about the giant patches that appeared nearly daily?
Ex-Sigil: We couldn't control that. From what I was told by some on the design team, the sweeping changes were par for the course.
and here is the link to the whole article and it does state that mistakes were made ALL over the place:
http://www.f13.net/index.php?itemid=561#more
V A N G U A R D W A S U N P L A Y A B L E
It has nothing to do with the game design.
If WoW crashed every 5 minutes, would you play it? I doubt it.
Would have spelled the end of casual games? I doubt that too.
Don't be too simplicistic with your "pulled out of my arse" theories.
V A N G U A R D W A S U N P L A Y A B L E
It has nothing to do with the game design.
If WoW crashed every 5 minutes, would you play it? I doubt it.
Would have spelled the end of casual games? I doubt that too.
Don't be too simplicistic with your "pulled out of my arse" theories.
You're statement wasn't any better.
VG has been playable since pre-release for me.
Wish Darkfall would release.
Just want to ask something to the Turbine Fanboi aka OP.
Turbine release one "decent" game and all of a sudden there up with Blizzard? Get a grip.
Do know why people are playing LOTRO, really? Because it is new, people ALWAYS try new things out, a chance to become "The best" etc etc. Also because there is SFA else out at the moment.
LOTRO is a fad, nothing more. AoC + WAR will completely annihilate it. It will become like Lineage 2, decent game, but will only appeal to extremely dedicated fans.
V A N G U A R D W A S U N P L A Y A B L E
It has nothing to do with the game design.
If WoW crashed every 5 minutes, would you play it? I doubt it.
Would have spelled the end of casual games? I doubt that too.
Don't be too simplicistic with your "pulled out of my arse" theories.
You're statement wasn't any better.
VG has been playable since pre-release for me.
Exactly, for you, but not for me and I played 1 month after release.
Majority of people could not play the game decently.
You are one of the lucky ones, gratz............you won the lottery.
Have a look at all the various unofficial Forums, and you ll realise how the game engine is basically shit, plus add that the game was unfinished, plus add all the bugs.
You cannot judge a game design when the game itself has so many technical problems like Vanguard had.
Another thing no one has mentioned is the IP. Vanguard was a completely new and unknown world which also helped it tank a little bit more I think. Look at the biggest MMO's played or being developed:
EQ2
WoW
War
Conan
LOTRo
All had some previous recognition in the community.
I agree for the most part but if they had tried harder to get the name out and if the Lore and storyline had been more in depth, word of mouth could've made Vanguard into another Norrath (EQ).
Telon had nothing going for it except a bunch of generic characters in a generic world. Why do these humans have doggy heads? Was it because of their diety, were they cursed, did they do some forbidden magic? Who knew....who cares? I know I personally would've loved to see a real story going on in Telon. I wonder if SOE will do anything with the quests or if they will simply fix bugs/performance before a big push? The nubee areas still could really use some love and polish to ingrain you into the world.
I agree for the most part but if they had tried harder to get the name out and if the Lore and storyline had been more in depth, word of mouth could've made Vanguard into another Norrath (EQ).
Telon had nothing going for it except a bunch of generic characters in a generic world. Why do these humans have doggy heads? Was it because of their diety, were they cursed, did they do some forbidden magic? Who knew....who cares? I know I personally would've loved to see a real story going on in Telon. I wonder if SOE will do anything with the quests or if they will simply fix bugs/performance before a big push? The nubee areas still could really use some love and polish to ingrain you into the world.
It's explained in the quests.
There not from Telon. All I can remember, but the lore was there.
Wish Darkfall would release.
I agree for the most part but if they had tried harder to get the name out and if the Lore and storyline had been more in depth, word of mouth could've made Vanguard into another Norrath (EQ).
Telon had nothing going for it except a bunch of generic characters in a generic world. Why do these humans have doggy heads? Was it because of their diety, were they cursed, did they do some forbidden magic? Who knew....who cares? I know I personally would've loved to see a real story going on in Telon. I wonder if SOE will do anything with the quests or if they will simply fix bugs/performance before a big push? The nubee areas still could really use some love and polish to ingrain you into the world.
It's explained in the quests.
There not from Telon. All I can remember, but the lore was there.
I played one from 1-12 and don't remember seeing anything about them. Some people don't care about that stuff, but for me it's those little touches in the starter city, the quests, the NPCs etc etc that get me stuck to a character and a world. My main in VG was an Orc and I remember that we fought with other Orcs and that we hated most other races but I never heard why in game. I recall reading a post way back on the main site about the Orcs going to war with the humans but since the main site no longer is working, that isn't common knowledge every player would get.
I loved in EQI that you picked a diety with your race to add flavor. I enjoyed that WOW actually had a little intro about each race before it dropped you into the world. I don't think VG even had an intro movie to set the flavor of the world?
To get back on the original topic, I think the little details and lore I mention are considered "carebear" and that most developers figure the hardcore crowd would be to busy grinding it out to stop and smell the roses so maybe that is why so few games have jumped on that bandwagon?
These statements are not accurate and do nothing but undermine whatever argument you are trying to make.
These statements are not accurate and do nothing but undermine whatever argument you are trying to make.
Tell me how they are inaccurate.
Turbine hasn't been an obscure gaming company in most gamers minds for quite some time. If they didn't know Turbine developed Asheron's Call (possible given the age of the game and how greatly the MMO industry has grown since) they've likely heard of DDO (even if it was only bad things they heard).
As to Turbine being in the same league as Blizzard you're jumping the gun there by quite a bit. Do they have a successful MMO on their hands? Yes. Do they have the extremely well established reputation for solid game IPs and great quality that Blizzard has? Not by a long shot.
Neither is Turbine one of the 'Big 2' now. If you wanted to classify the various MMO companies into catagories based on their current position in the industry I'd probably break it down like so:
Top Tier:
Blizzard: WoW, Diablo II, and their numerous other non-MMO success stories put them pretty high
NCSoft: I'm honestly shocked by how infrequently people mention NCSoft. They've a sizable catalogue of MMO titles as well as two major successes (the Lineage Series & Guild Wars). Also the moderate success that is City of Heroes/Villians. Nowadays their catalogue might even outnumber (as far as number of titles) even SOE's catalogue.
Middle Tier:
SOE: Their position is debatable given their sizable catalogue of moderately to fairly successful titles, their LARGE capital pool, and several other factors. You could easily put these guys on the bottom of the top tier or the top of the middle but I'll put them here because the overall gamer community perception of SOE is nearly at an all-time low. We'll see if some of their new titles like The Agency can push them back into the upper echelons of MMO developers.
EA-Mythic: The upcoming WAR, Mythic's DAoC, and Ultima Online along with their large available pool of capital put these guys somewhere in the middle but we'll have to see if they can put out a few more DAoC quality games and less Earth and Beyond.
CCP: EVE Online has earned CCP plenty of acclaim but can they bring on and even larger success with the World of Darkness MMO? If they can translate some of the innovation they showed with EVE into a slightly more mainstream game with an established IP like WoD it could be a big success.
Turbine: Given the abysmal showing of DDO despite the massive appeal of that IP to tabletop nerds (like myself) Turbine must be thanking the gods to have landed LoTRO. Thankfully they developed a more complete (and fun) game with LoTRO.
Funcom: Anarchy Online isn't necessarily a bad game but it's not a major success in the industry. Age of Conan however looks like it could be. We'll see what happens.
Bottom Tier:
This is filled by developers that are developing games but don't have one out yet (Perpetual, Flying Labs Software, etc) or the more niche developers.
Now I'm sure I forgot a few but that's a pretty decent list. I'd like to note that any of those in the Middle Tier are only a few steps away from the top tier in my mind. SOE & EA are probably closest given just how much money they can throw into producing MULTIPLE MMOs at once if they so choose but the others only need to fill out their catalogue a little more or have one of their titles hit closer to the big titles. LoTRO could be well on it's way but we'll have to see.
There's a multi-page thread about this over at Silky Venom:
www.silkyvenom.com/forums/showthread.php
I think it's an interesting read.
It was a response to the "Turbine into a developer in the same league with Blizzard" bit. Turbine is by no means in the same league with Blizzard though it might make it there if LoTRO continues to garner new subscriptions.
You might actually get some more interesting discussion if you didn't respond to every reply with 'WTF You talking bout Willis?'
Oh and as to Turbine's visibility in the gaming community they're revenue streams might have dried up but their name was still known to anyone that even halfway pays attention to MMOs. The DDO fiasco probably helped ensure people remembered their name even more given the hype that game receieved prior to launch.
Well written OP editorial...
I disagree that Vanguard is a total failure at this time... Ive played many of the MMO's that have come out since EQ1... Most I personally didnt find appealing... The only 2 I played for extended time (more than a month) was EQ1 (3 years), EQ2 (2 Years)... Vanguard has held me past the 1 month trail which gives it a good chance to get at least a 6 month play from me...
If SOE can remove some of the playability impediments for lower end systems and add more lands to explore, especially for the lvl 30+ crowd it has a real chance to become successful...
I think alot of the problem for these newer games is saturation... just go to the game list... there are so many choices at this point.
LOtRo has the benefit of a story Fan base as did WoW and this will naturally draw an initial base of players due to familiarity... For games who are out of the gate without a doormat it may take 6mo to a year before the potential of the game is established.
In my outsiders view. I dont see at this point how a non-established title (previously storied i.e WoW LOtRo) can make it financially unless grouped under one Entity with an already successful title, such as SOE with the already successful EQ1, and group of games under their Station pass suite. Which is another reason why Vanguard has a decent chance...
I'de be curious to get an unvarnished opinion (but dont expect its possible for a corporate officer) from a gaming exec on why they feel these games are fiancially viable unless pooled together under one entity to offset ealy losses and to give them exposer via a group of choices...
Regards... Rub
Very well written post (it's rara to see good grammar on the forums.)
But VG didn't fail because it was hardcore. It failed because it was broken, it had great and terrible graphics simultaneously, and it had an elitist community that nobody could stomach.
There is a large upswelling of hardcore gamers crying out for a good hardcore game with harsh death penalties, FFA PvP, corpse-looting, FPS combat, player housing, etc. We just want it to work.
LOTRO succeeded because it WORKED when it was released (but it might slowly change as more players start achieving the vacant upper levels with no content).
- Phos
I'd tried to avoid suggesting that VG failed because it was hardcore. But this post was about public perception and when the biggest profile, most expensive "hardcore" game goes down in flames it has to effect which games get financed.
As far as LotRo goes, it seems to me the same things were said about WoW and look how that turned out. LotRo is so successful that the developers have already started pushing out expansions. The first one comes out Tuesday and includes end game content such as a raid (and also rep grinding). This sounds a lot like WOW's development to me.
By the way, what's up with LotRo already having raids as a casual game while VG has no raids in sight?
To the OP:
You have missed the point Hardcore isn't dead at all go play a good old MUD ... Dragonrealms now thats hardcore and fun.
Sadly not many Hardcore MMORPG's exist, too much effort for the masses. But hardcore games will exist just with low population games for sadists and people who like self harming.
Played Lotro for a week hit level 20 maxed ot all my trades and am seriously bored may as well go play a single player game no depth whatsoever.... Pretty though.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I think I understand what you're saying. You think that because Vanguard was pitched to financiers as a "hardcore game" (although it really isn't hardcore), that financiers will shy away from financing other future games categorized as "hardore?" I think you might have a point there, but I'm not in the world of finance and I wouldn't know how all that works. I would hope those responsible for getting and giving finance to games work on a more complex level than that!
Also, I really hope LOTRO is successful in fixing it's end-game content with this new expansion. It sounds like a working game with potential.
But I still say there is a huge thirst out there for a good hardcore MMO with death penalties, corpse looting, housing, boats, FFA PVP, FPS combat, real travel, etc. Such a game would capture my attention and be much more immersive than anything on the market now.
- Phos