Vanguard has nothing to do with hardcore gaming. The first thing I saw when I logged into BETA was a quest NPC telling me exactly where to go and what to do. Vanguard is just a poorly designed, developed and implemented game. There is a huge market for hardcore players. Once each developer fails at delivering a WoW clone they may start to think outsode the box again and eventually we will get our EQ1 successor. So far the market is flodded with crap. Thankfully, there are companies who already are willing to break the mold. WAR is coming! Pre-emptive strike: Because people will call WAR a WoW clone as usual understand this: Until I get xp from killing enemy players WoW and WAR have nothing in common.
What makes you think that WH will be any different in the category of "not sucking at launch"?
For starters "games sucking at launch" isn't all that common anymore in MMOs. The only 2 bad launches I've been a part of were AO and VG. Games I played at launch that were "good" were EQ1, DDO, DAoC, and games that had exceptional launches were CoH/CoV, WoW, E&B and lately LOTRO. So I dunno were you are getting your info from.
Also, WAR just recently got a major funding boost that gave Mythic a few extra months of development time to "get it right" You know the exact opposite of SOE forcing VG out the door.
WAR will have an outstanding launch. Why? Because games that don't have good launches these days fail (see VG). Blizzard knew that, Turbine knew it and Mythic knows it too. Just because SOE doesn't have a clue doesn't mean noone else does.
Warhammer and I hate to say this (and I love Warhammer) will have the same problems other games will, I too played DAoC at launch and Eq1 and I can tell you when RvR/PvP started in DAoC there was so many one hit/shot kill exploits that it drove a good amount of people off. EQ1 had just as many if not more bugs than VGSOH. I even remember people complaining and leaving EQ1 due to the amount of death/XP loss bugs in the game which $OE put patch after patch and update after update to correct (just like VSSOH).
I beleive the devs even at Mythic will make a compromise with Warhammer as time goes on in the name of balance and bug fixes (they did with DAoC), it is just a matter of time.
The problem on top of the bugs that Vanguard has and a lot of other games know not to do (Brad is a dumb ass he couldn't help it) is put over 1000s upon 1000s of XP time sinks in a game that isn't fun but tedious. I know $OE will correct the problem and now that Brad is driving "Miss Daisy", they can hopefully make the game fun like EQ2 is.
On a side note and not to high jack the original topic of the poster, Brad listened to the wrong people in beta and he got the sand paper treatment in the end (along with the other SIgil helpers).
Vanguard has nothing to do with hardcore gaming. I honestly do hope this is true as from what I can tell from forums like this that that type of hardcore is sort of hopefully dying. As for me personally the hardcore I read on forums like this is hardcore that suites fps online/single player games, I told this before for me hardcore in a mmorpg is someone that get really involved in the game world, living the life of the character, helping others, socializing (this can be 1hour online or 4 hours online, my type of hardcore still has rl unlike we read hardcore here. But somehow on sites like this hardcore means people that only purpose in life is playing games without knowing what is going on in rl.
The first thing I saw when I logged into BETA was a quest NPC telling me exactly where to go and what to do. Wow now imagine that every person starting a mmorpg already knows how everything works, now imagine that maybe just maybe there are people that do not know how mmorpg work right away and appreciate little guidens in the beginning. Obviously even thought you might have not gotten your character at higher level you too are able to read all the comments about people getting into higher level’s and having a hard time finding or understanding the quest, sure some quest are bad written in a way but really reading them will still explain where to go or what has to be found. Afcourse like the very first pop-up window tells us when starting Vanguard is to explore your surroundings, that is what makes questing allot easier to find and to have fun with themVanguard is just a poorly designed, developed and implemented game. Yes there are design flaws, poorly at some places but lucky for us gamers we know it can changed/fixed/altered over time. Fact is history of gaming. Besides for me the good still outweighs the bad and fun still outweighs frustration but won’t deny not getting frustrated sometimes because of Vanguard, but not game wise but forum wise mainly There is a huge market for hardcore players. Depends on what kind of hardcore you mean.Like I said if its hardcore many times explained on this forums as people that 24/7 raid/endgame/gank/camp/rush/grind/unmable to listen to others/only seeing their way/those who deny any type of problem in the game they play. Then no I do not think there is a huge market for it. Do I think there is a huge market the way I see hardcore, also no do not think so, from what I have experienced these last few years with internet becoming more mainstream is the lack of patients of some gamers and also gamers that might have had allot of fps experience and brought the exact same type of game play into mmorpg, where I indeed use to play allot of FPS games but I totally changed my game style as fps is indeed more of the I want to be the best and the toughest MF around, but with mmorpg my approach is so completely different. Also keep in mind I’m not a pvp'r anymore like I said pvp also sort of died when internet became mainstream and we saw the sort of "gaming honor" disappear.
Once each developer fails at delivering a WoW clone they may start to think outsode the box again and eventually we will get our EQ1 successor. So far the market is flodded with crap. Thankfully, there are companies who already are willing to break the mold. First of all Vanguard never was made to be a Wow killer or never was going to be a Wow killer, the only one saying it that it might have been a Wow killer where game-sites and people on forums, simply because it was a mmorpg and it seemed allot of people knew "Brad" from his golden years with EQ so they just where hoping/expecting a new mmorpg to beat or kill Wow but every other gamer with common sense would knew at least after release of Vanguard that Vanguard will never or can not compete with Wow as they totally different type of mmorpg where Wow gave me a mmo feel and Vanguard truly gave me back that mmorpg feel I missed for quite some time. But that’s the thing with internet, some people read at the first page on Brad site that he speaks and uses the word "Wow" and somehow people translate that into a Wow-killer. One confusing part is where you say "Thankfully, there are company's out there who are willing to break the mold" and to be clear you are not talking about Vanguard? May I ask what game you talking about? Only games at the moment that go in a better and changed direction are merely single player games, Not one game comes to mind that makes me say oh WAUW can't wait till that mmo comes out as I have not seen a mmorpg that over’s anything refreshing. No Vanguard is mainly refreshing because of its size and how it looks, game play is sure same old same old with some changes and nicer touches to it then in previous other mmorpg. Afcourse still lots of room for improvement, but already lots of fun. Keep in mind I have lots of patients but a low threshold when a game would be riddled with bugs or unplayable also do not like game where I need to spend for ever to accomplish something. Strange that I read lots of complaints about Vanguard not delivering that, but somehow I do feel its that rush mentality that grind thru this type of games that seem to complain the most about the game. Just look at some of them they already made level 30/40 and are bored. I ask you how can someone get bored or how can someone worry about endgame in a mmorpg, seems to me the more proof of people just grinding these games just to be bored. When people get bored in a mmorpg I can only say this maybe its time for them to start either playing other type of games or maybe stop playing games cause honestly what type of person does things that end up with being bored. It’s amazing and sad at the same time when I read things like that in mmorpg.WAR is coming! I really hope this game does bring the stuff some of the gamers miss in other games and that it will turn out exactly as promised.
Pre-emptive strike: Because people will call WAR a WoW clone as usual understand this: Until I get xp from killing enemy players WoW and WAR have nothing in common. Don't worry bro, some people will call the next Mario game a Wow clone, just know the majority of gamers will for the most part judge a game by the game it self, comparisons will always play a part doesn't matter what person only difference is some just lose control when they try to compare things not fully realistic to compare. Remember not every game is made for everyone. Not everyone has to like the same things. Just because I’m not attracted to WAR doesn't mean I now should speak badly about that game or spam/troll the WAR forum and predict doom and such.
Vanguard has nothing to do with hardcore gaming. I honostly do hope this is true as from what i can tell from forums like this that that type of hardcore is sort of hopefully dying. As for me personaly the hardcore i read on forums like this is hardcore that suites fps online/single player games, i told this before for me hardcore in a mmorpg is someone that get really involved in the gameworld, living the life of the character, helping others, socializing (this can be 1hour online or 4 hours online, my type of hardcore still has rl unlike we read hardcore here . But somehow on sites like this hardcore means people that only purpuse in life is playing games without knowing what is going on in rl. The first thing I saw when I logged into BETA was a quest NPC telling me exactly where to go and what to do. Wow now imagine that every person starting a mmorpg already knows how everything works, now imagine that maybe just maybe there are people that do not know how mmorpg work right away and appriciatte allittle guidens in the beginning. Abviously even thought you might have not gotten your character at higher lvl you too are able to read all the comments about people getting into higher lvl's and having a hard time finding or understanding the quest, sure some quest are bad written in a way but really reading them will still explain where to go or what has to be found. Afcourse like the very first pop-up window tells us when starting Vanguard is to explore your surroundings, that is what makes questing allot easy'r to find and to have fun with them Vanguard is just a poorly designed, developed and implemented game. Yes there are design flaws, poorly at some places but lucky for us gamers we know it can changed/fixed/altered over time. Fact is history of gaming. Besides for me the good still outway's the bad and fun still outways frustration but wont deny not getting frustrated sometimes because of Vanguard, but not gamewise but forumwise mainly There is a huge market for hardcore players. Depense on what kind of hardcore you mean.Like i said if its hardcore many times explained on this forums as people that 24/7 raid/endgame/gank/camp/rush/grind/unmable to listen to others/only seeing their way/those who deny any type of problem in the game they play. then no i do not think there is a hugh market for it. Do i think there is a hugh market the way i see hardcore, also no do not think so, from what i have experianced these last few years with internet becoming more meanstream is the lack of patients of some gamers and also gamers that might have had allot of fps experiance and brought the exact same type of gameplay into mmorpg, where i indeed use to play allot of FPS games but i totlay changed my gamestyle as fps is indeed more of the i want to be the best and the tuffest MF arround, but with mmorpg my approuche is soo completly different. Also keep in mind i'm not a pvp'r anymore like i said pvp also sort of died when internet became meanstream and we saw the sort of "gaming honor" disappear. Once each developer fails at delivering a WoW clone they may start to think outsode the box again and eventually we will get our EQ1 successor. So far the market is flodded with crap. Thankfully, there are companies who already are willing to break the mold. First of all Vanguard never was made to be a WoW killer or never was going to be a WoW killer, the only one saying it that it might have been a WoW killer where game-sites and people on forums, simply because it was a mmorpg and it seemed allot of people knew "Brad" from his golden years with EQ so they just where hoping/expecting a new mmorpg to beat or kill WoW but every other gamer with common sense would knew atleast after release of Vanguard that Vanguard will never or can not compete with WoW as they totelay different type of mmorpg where WoW gave me a mmo feel and Vanguard truly gave me back that mmorpg feel i missed for quite some time. Butthats the thing with internet, some people read at the first page on Brad site that he speaks and uses the word "WoW" and somehow people translate that into a WoW-killer. One confusing part is where you say "Thankfully, there are company's out there who are willing to break the mold" and to be clear you are nopt talking about Vanguard? May i ask what game you talking about. Only games at the moment that go in a better and changed dircetion are merly single player games, Not one game comes to mind that makes me say oh WAUW can't wai till that mmo comes out as i have not seen a mmorpg that overs anything refreshing. No Vanguard is mainly refreshing because of its size and how it looks, gameplay is sure same old same old with some changes and nicer touches to it then in previous other mmorpg. Afcourse still lots of room for improvement, but already lots of fun. Keep in mnd i have lots of patients but a low treshhold when a game would be riddled with bugs or unplyeble also do not like game where i needto spend for ever to accomplishc something. Strange that i read lots of complaints about Vanguard not delivering that, but someohow i do feel its that rush mentality that grind thru this type of games that seem to complain the most about the game. Just look at some of them they already made lvl 30/40 and are bored. I ask you how can someone get bored or how can someone worry about endgame in a mmorpg, seems to me the more proof of people just grinding these games just to be bored. When people get bored in a mmorpg i can only say this maybe its time for them to start either playing other type of games or maybe stop playing games cause honostly what type of person does things that end up with being bored. Its amazing and sad at the same time when i read things like that in mmorpg. WAR is coming! I really hope this game does bring the stuff some of the gamers miss in other games and that it will turn out exactly as promised. Pre-emptive strike: Because people will call WAR a WoW clone as usual understand this: Until I get xp from killing enemy players WoW and WAR have nothing in common. Don't worry bro, some people will call the next mario game a wow clone, just know the majority of gamers will for the most part judge a game by the game it self, comparisons will always play a part doesn't matter what person only difference is some just lose controle when they try to compare things not fully realistic to compare. Remember not every game is made for everyone. Not everyone has to like the same things. Just because i'm not atracted to WAR doesn't mean i now should speak bad about that game or spam/troll the WAR forum and predict doom and such.
Well I was going to say something but despite the spelling errors, I think he's got everything covered pretty well.
First of all Vanguard never was made to be a Wow killer
Really I get the impression WoW came along and with its great finicial gain was a significant motivator in companies realising they want Uber £££. Vanguard isn't that different it shares all the common MMO elements.. "go kill X of this and bring back Y which will only drop A amount of time" as *the example*. I dont think the outside success of blizzard was not a influence on Sigil. Hell the financiers should have gone something like : "whats this game"... *holds up WoW box.... "we would like this success please". Companies are it for profit ... there not there to pander to small deopgraphics need. ( Well unless legislation forces them... maybe hardcore people can goto government and get this eh ?)
No the whole MMO genre is pretty cliche.. but hey people like this. I know I lap it up sometimes though also rebuke it at the same time.
As I said before when the market gets saturated with WoW clones someone might go for a more niche market using previous technology .... and provide that hardcore experience (whatever the HELL hardcore really means nowadays anyways !)
First of all Vanguard never was made to be a Wow killer
Really I get the impression WoW came along and with its great finicial gain was a significant motivator in companies realising they want Uber £££. Vanguard isn't that different it shares all the common MMO elements.. "go kill X of this and bring back Y which will only drop A amount of time" as *the example*. I dont think the outside success of blizzard was not a influence on Sigil. Hell the financiers should have gone something like : "whats this game"... *holds up WoW box.... "we would like this success please". Companies are it for profit ... there not there to pander to small deopgraphics need. ( Well unless legislation forces them... maybe hardcore people can goto government and get this eh ?)
No the whole MMO genre is pretty cliche.. but hey people like this. I know I lap it up sometimes though also rebuke it at the same time.
As I said before when the market gets saturated with WoW clones someone might go for a more niche market using previous technology .... and provide that hardcore experience (whatever the HELL hardcore really means nowadays anyways !)
How I think you would go about capitalizing on WoW's sucess.
We assume that a good percentage of MMOers playing WoW are new to the genre. Here's an anology.
You are learning to draw. You practice basic tecniques, keeping it easy, and as you get comfortable you gradually try to draw harder things.
If you're going to use WoW's sucess to you're benefit, you can't go at them head on. I would plan around the idea that as new MMOers experience WoW, they will begin to look for something a little harder. They will be familliar with the idea of playing a game for many, many months, and may begin to look for something a little deeper that they can invest time in. A good part of the WoW experience is also raiding, and a lot of WoW players will spend a good deal of thier time doing just that. Raiding is all about being grouped, and sharing that group experience; some become acustomed to being grouped. I would think that many people that leave WoW will leave desiring to continue that group experience in thier next game, and I would provide them that.
It's not about dethroning WoW, it's about utilizing the sucess of that game to your benefit. It's about apealling to those that leave WoW, because trying take the average WoW player just isn't feasable. I think that companies are going to find that creating "WoW clones" is only going to provide them with short term sucess, and require you to work much harder to keep the players you attract. I thnk that as many people hit end game in a game that feels very similliar to WoW, and find themselves doing the same things as they were doing in WoW, one of three things will happen. They will have built ties to the people they met in game and continue to play, they will desire a harder game, or they will go back to WoW.
Community is key, and more so if you are going to go head to head with WoW. You'll have to provide a reason to keep people doing what they were already doing in thier previous mmo. Consider the community aspect of the games that go head to head with WoW, EQ2 and LoTRO. EQ2 has some of the deepest guild features, a community asset if you will, then any game I've played; more games need to look at EQ2 as the standard in that department. LoTRO's fellowships are supposed to be a big part of the game as well.
VG wasn't designed to be the WoW killer, it was designed to be the next step in MMOer development, and in that regard it would be capatilizing off of WoW's sucess. I think that someone thought that the niche market that WoW would be dumping players in would be bigger; they were wrong. WoW could have 25 million subs and the number of players that would evolve to the "next level" of MMO gameplay would still be really small. I think that the magority of people that quit playing WoW will not play another MMO. I only have to look around at the people I know that played WoW to see the trend. Of a dozen or more people that I know personally that played WoW, I am the only one that is an MMOer; all the others have quit playing and gone back to single player, or online multiplayer games. They left the MMO market, and that I thnk will be were a lot of the WoW players go. Away. I don't think WoW will have as big an impact on the MMO market as people expect.
First of all Vanguard never was made to be a Wow killer
Really I get the impression WoW came along and with its great finicial gain was a significant motivator in companies realising they want Uber £££. Vanguard isn't that different it shares all the common MMO elements.. "go kill X of this and bring back Y which will only drop A amount of time" as *the example*. I dont think the outside success of blizzard was not a influence on Sigil. Hell the financiers should have gone something like : "whats this game"... *holds up WoW box.... "we would like this success please". Companies are it for profit ... there not there to pander to small deopgraphics need. ( Well unless legislation forces them... maybe hardcore people can goto government and get this eh ?)
No the whole MMO genre is pretty cliche.. but hey people like this. I know I lap it up sometimes though also rebuke it at the same time.
As I said before when the market gets saturated with WoW clones someone might go for a more niche market using previous technology .... and provide that hardcore experience (whatever the HELL hardcore really means nowadays anyways !)
Sorry bro but if you read that line you copied correct you would have read what it said. Nothing indicates me saying WoW isn't a motivator. Thats pure logic, wasn't expecting to see this explained as like i said thats logic when something is so succesfull that it can/will motivate but still nothing that indicates Vanguard WAS MADE TO BE A WOW-KILLER, also to be clear this has also nothing to do with hitching a ride on WoW's succes this again is logic and felt no need to explain it, but seems it would have been better actualy seeing this respons.
First of all Vanguard never was made to be a Wow killer
Really I get the impression WoW came along and with its great finicial gain was a significant motivator in companies realising they want Uber £££. Vanguard isn't that different it shares all the common MMO elements.. "go kill X of this and bring back Y which will only drop A amount of time" as *the example*. I dont think the outside success of blizzard was not a influence on Sigil. Hell the financiers should have gone something like : "whats this game"... *holds up WoW box.... "we would like this success please". Companies are it for profit ... there not there to pander to small deopgraphics need. ( Well unless legislation forces them... maybe hardcore people can goto government and get this eh ?)
No the whole MMO genre is pretty cliche.. but hey people like this. I know I lap it up sometimes though also rebuke it at the same time.
As I said before when the market gets saturated with WoW clones someone might go for a more niche market using previous technology .... and provide that hardcore experience (whatever the HELL hardcore really means nowadays anyways !)
Sorry bro but if you read that line you copied correct you would have read what it said. Nothing indicates me saying WoW isn't a motivator. Thats pure logic, wasn't expecting to see this explained as like i said thats logic when something is so succesfull that it can/will motivate but still nothing that indicates Vanguard WAS MADE TO BE A WOW-KILLER, also to be clear this has also nothing to do with hitching a ride on WoW's succes this again is logic and felt no need to explain it, but seems it would have been better actualy seeing this respons.
I think sometimes you have to make the long, drawn out, boring posts so that others understand what you're trying to say.
It's not so much that Vanguard imploded and killed harcore gaming, its that hardcore gaming imploded due to the nature of the beast. It consumed so many unwarranted hours of tedious and monotonous game play(OK game play is not what I should say because grinding trees for a bazillion hours does not a game make) that it acted like a star going super nova and turned into this black hole of grind that devoured anything and everything that was meant to be fun in a game - a game - not work - a game. We didn't know any better with games like EQ and AC, they were all we had really in the way of 3D MMORPG worlds at the time. We players had no choice but to accept what was given and think...wow...this is fun. Couple of years later we're like - WTF! I wasted 2 years of my life whacking virtual moles and thought it was fun! We fooled ourselves into believing it was fun and hardcore. LOL! Hardcore...such a stupid word to use to describe a game and it's monotonous, tedious, repetetive boring arse poorly designed and implemented game play! What we need is not hardcore...what we need is complex and challenging game play! That's what we need. Not this stupid ride for 40 minutes, wack 100 of the same MOB or chop down thousands of virtual trees in search of that ultra rare kind of lumber. NO! That is just lazy and unimaginative game design..there is nothing hardcore other then sitting on your ass for 6hrs at a stretch trying to acomplish one simple little task to get a bow made! A stupid bow! Do I feel rewarded for what I did for night after night after boring ass night trying to find the wood necessary to have the bow made? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In fact I feel cheated. I feel as though the developer is sitting back and laughing his stupid ass off because some dumb gamer is willing to put up with his BS to keep said gamer subscribed and playing their game. Well Mr. Developer you go right on thinking that and we'll see more and more of your pathetic attempts at making a game fall into the abyss of poorly made games. So drop this "hardcore' and give us a well designed and thought out games that challenges us not only in game play, but with the complexity of what choices we're given to determine the fate of our characters by how we develop them and play them. I've seen so many good games or potentially good games created only to see them become boring, monotonous, tedious unfun games because some developer or level designer said, "hmmm...lets see, I'll have them talk to this NPC here in city X. The NPC will tell them to travel all the way across the world to find 120 small flowers that only bloom at night and only on these days. Days derived from this algorithmic formula to spawn them at the right moment and only on these days at this time." If that is challenging and fun to you - knock yourself out. I'll take my chances on a fun, yet challenging, and complex game rather then a boring ass, poorly implemented, POS that is not even worthy of the title - a game.
/bow
personally don't understand why devs don't hire a person that can come up with fun stuff on the fly in instanced zones on a regular basis. Also don't understand the lack of imagination that takes place (as far as quests) in a MMO.
But then again I've always said that players of MMOs could come up with better content than the people that make them
The problem with LOTRO is exactly why its so popular, its so easy that you will be done with the game within several months... I don't see any long term staying power with this game... I think in the short term it will be a good success, but the long term seems iffy IMO.
Didn't people say the same thing about WoW? If anything, WoW has increased in subs consistently since launch. I think the idea of grinding to retain customers is an archaic concept. Fun retains customers. Grinds and time sinks do not.
It is my opinion that hardcore gamers are a niche community that cannot be relied upon by a major budget game. It's like spending $30 million on roleplayers. There just isn't enough return for the investment.
I agree that hardcore gamers is a niche market, but lets be honest the ""Fun"" part of WoW and LOTRO runs out after about 4-5 months when you hit the level cap and do a few raids, afater that its all rinse and repeat.... The reason WoW is so popular is because its more of a social community then a gaming one... I don't see LOTRO which is basicaly a clone is going to steel away WoW's community....
If anything is going to take on WoW its going to have to be something nobody has seen before, something inventive that changes how we play MMO's... Right now I don't see anything like that....
Somebody made the comment that EQ1 had as poor of a launch as VG and that there really wasn't much of a difference in terms of bugs etc.
There is a tiny little difference: 8 years of development and about a 100 MMO launches in between. EQ1 was revolutionary and it having bugs was understandable especially considering it was the first game to require a 3D graphics card. VG on the other hand is just copying what others have done before + throw in a Magic the Gathering type card game. There is no excuse that 8 years down the road it should have had the bugs that it had/has.
Somebody made the comment that EQ1 had as poor of a launch as VG and that there really wasn't much of a difference in terms of bugs etc. There is a tiny little difference: 8 years of development and about a 100 MMO launches in between. EQ1 was revolutionary and it having bugs was understandable especially considering it was the first game to require a 3D graphics card. VG on the other hand is just copying what others have done before + throw in a Magic the Gathering type card game. There is no excuse that 8 years down the road it should have had the bugs that it had/has.
I completely agree. 8 years of watching the genre move forward and seeing the reactions of the players to the various games and still the game companies learn nothing. It's as if they totally blow us off and then say screww the players(SOE does this continuely) we knw what is best for you. The simple fact is you must not...we're not playing your games! We'd love to play your game, but you force us to look elsewhere because you are to blinded by some kind of weird game designer philosphy that the people who play your games are inept and you in all your great wisdom can do no wrong.
Think again. We the players are really on your side. We cheer you on and say "yea! great...but can you tweak this and fix that and maybe add this to make the game *fun* ", and what do you do...you totally ignore us and we get the same old same old time and time again. Stop doing that! We will play your games - we wish to play your games but not as long as you continue to push garbage, bug ridden, poorly implemented games on us. Eventually it is going to implode and you're seeing it again in this game - Vanguard. We're tired of it .
You know what the saddest part is...I really like this game Vanguard, but even I can see a sinking ship and unless SOE gets on the ball and fixes this game up and really quick...it'll be a DDO or a Matrix Online or god forbid an AC2. I wish to see Vanguard succeed, really I do however there is some serious game issues that need worked out by SOE to get this game to shine. Hope they can do it.
You know, I really liked this game, a ton me and my wife were just talking about it while playing EQ2 here. I have alot of faith that SOE will bring this back to life and do what it did with eq 2. But if they dont come out with an expansion I think this game is doomed. That is the only thing that will give the players some sort of faith that they are trying to do something with it unlike Matrix Online. Well see what happens, but unless they come out with some sort of preformance improvment /bug fix/dupe fix/server merger/too much of a dmned grid fix/ PREFORMANCE IMPROVMENT, its to the tubes. But hell it was a good game.
Somebody made the comment that EQ1 had as poor of a launch as VG and that there really wasn't much of a difference in terms of bugs etc. There is a tiny little difference: 8 years of development and about a 100 MMO launches in between. EQ1 was revolutionary and it having bugs was understandable especially considering it was the first game to require a 3D graphics card. VG on the other hand is just copying what others have done before + throw in a Magic the Gathering type card game. There is no excuse that 8 years down the road it should have had the bugs that it had/has.
I completely agree. 8 years of watching the genre move forward and seeing the reactions of the players to the various games and still the game companies learn nothing. It's as if they totally blow us off and then say screww the players(SOE does this continuely) we knw what is best for you. The simple fact is you must not...we're not playing your games! We'd love to play your game, but you force us to look elsewhere because you are to blinded by some kind of weird game designer philosphy that the people who play your games are inept and you in all your great wisdom can do no wrong.
Think again. We the players are really on your side. We cheer you on and say "yea! great...but can you tweak this and fix that and maybe add this to make the game *fun* ", and what do you do...you totally ignore us and we get the same old same old time and time again. Stop doing that! We will play your games - we wish to play your games but not as long as you continue to push garbage, bug ridden, poorly implemented games on us. Eventually it is going to implode and you're seeing it again in this game - Vanguard. We're tired of it .
You know what the saddest part is...I really like this game Vanguard, but even I can see a sinking ship and unless SOE gets on the ball and fixes this game up and really quick...it'll be a DDO or a Matrix Online or god forbid an AC2. I wish to see Vanguard succeed, really I do however there is some serious game issues that need worked out by SOE to get this game to shine. Hope they can do it.
Games are amazing. Like really amazingly amazing. And they're just getting started – thirty years is peanuts for a new medium. Gaming isn't even an infant yet. It's an embryo. It's a zygote. And here we all are, players and ex-players, all here at the very beginning, the inception of something really exciting and really important. I mean, “How often do you get to be there at the start of an art form? Once every 100 years?” So asuming that some people think 8 years is along time only proofs what i keep saying and that some people should really try and look beyond on type of genre and truly try and see where we actualy stand with games or its industrie, I keep hearing ignorant people saying, "We're tired of it" . This again shows people that hardly are able to have a realistic view upon games but only seem to be able to view it from their view-point. Sorry no offens but i kinda getting tired of this(not even a Staff-Writter has the guts to truly stand for what he should re-present but only is scared to not be liked by the so-called "haters" which dominate sites like this) I keep hearing Vanguard is for the niche but somehow the "haters" fail to see that the whole mmorpg scene is still niche else we would have had more then 5 BILLION mmorpg players and maybe near or bit more then 13/14 million single player or other pc game players, funny its actualy the other way around so stop pretending that Vanguard is niche as the whole genre of mmorpg is still niche. Not saying WoW hasn't done a great job at bringing mmorpg more world wide know cause that it has, it has brought allot more people to this niche type of gameplay but still its the minority of gamers actualy playing mmorpg compared to the general gaming population.
Please try and play other type games people, see what kind of problems those games have or not have, see that most new released games are still games that can not be played by the mass population cause the mass-population still goes with low-mid range systems and the nichy gamers are the minority with the better mid-high and uber systems (sure some games can be played at low spec but most recent released games still do not look good at low and still there are no games that print actual system specs on their box that are realistic to be enjoying hte game both gamewise and visuals.
Games are amazing. Like really amazingly amazing. And they're just getting started – thirty years is peanuts for a new medium. Gaming isn't even an infant yet. It's an embryo. It's a zygote.
Its a nice picture, but wrong.
Lets have a look at the masters of gaming. The 5 year old humans. Give them any random five pieces of something. Be it a ball, an empty cup or what ever. They gonna build a universe with those five pieces.
Problem of the game companies is: They long fogot about being 5 yo and they dont have a clue about *playing*. So, the industry shouldnt grow up, but remember what it means to play.
When Vanguard imploded it did NOT kill hardcore gaming.
Vanguard was touted as a "hardcore"game but it simply wasn't. Ultimately it is a game with a claim to be many things it simply isn't. If you have played Vanguard you would understand that there is nothing "hardcore"about it. It is an unengaging simplistic grindfest that was poorly realised and poorly developed.
Hopefully the one lesson to come out of Vanguard is simply that you don't release a product like this into the open market - release is for when you have finished all beta testing and have a fully developed gaming world, hopefully with something new and/or interesting to offer.
The only thing that Vanguard should have killed off (apart from itself) is the idea that a half-assed product release is sufficient in this day and age of MMO's. The market at large will be unforgiving if any developer tries to do something like this again, and the result will be that no investment will recover from the contempt shown to the 'market' (ie. us) by releasing a product of this deficiency.
Wisdom too often never comes, and so one ought not to reject it merely because it comes late. With that in mind, let's face it: Vanguard marks the end of EQ style gaming. This isn't about fairness, this is about reality. Although I happen to like many of the ideas in the game, I still recognize that Vanguard is a stillborn mess that could be the most public and epic failure of a AAA title in quite some time. It is the Waterworld of gaming. It's the kind of failure that resonates throughout an industry. Worse yet, it is a failure that has happened right next door to the resounding success of Lord of the Rings Online. LotRo has been a wild overnight hit that has made a somewhat obscure gaming company, Turbine, into a developer in the same league with Blizzard. It is even on track to become of the most successful MMO games of all time. It may even end up one of the most successful PC games of all time. I liked Vanguard before it died. But that really doesn't make make much of a difference. What is the lesson the industry is likely to draw from this? Fairly or not, Vanguard has been pegged as the "hardcore" game. A "harsh" death penalty, long travel, massive grinds and no instancing were supposed to be its selling points. Those points simply did not sell but instead flopped with a industry-wide thud. And then its company imploded and its lead designer started talking about how much he wanted to cry. A car accident at the circus. Who couldn't stop and gawk? Some people might argue that the failure was not due to the feature set but instead due to the performance issues. They may be right. (Performance issue are ultimately what drove me away). But ultimately it won't matter. These features and concepts are now tainted because no investor knows for sure what made the game so unattractive to consumers and no investor will want to take the chance that they repeat Vanguard's failure. In direct contrast, LotRo's massive success rides on features like easy travel, immediate accessibility, swift leveling, clever use of instancing and practically no death penalty. Where do you honestly think the smart money will be played? Where would you place your bets? As far as the future of Vanguard - it is not with the hardcore. Smed might give us lip service to keep us around, but we are no longer a demographically significant part of the marketplace. Over the past three years Sony has been forced to the sidelines while companies like Blizzard and Turbine raced right past them. At one point SOE was the 800 gorilla in MMOs. Now they are a marginal player fighting for the scraps at the table of the big two. Do you think that Sony is happy with that state of affairs? The Sony corporation is still reeling for some seriously wrong-headed corporate decisions (PS3, HD format wars, PSP) and is hemorrhaging money. I'm fairly certain that they can not afford to have SOE sitting around catering to a fringe part of the market place. They need SOE to reassume its place as market leader - especially now that online gaming has become such a significant revue stream. Blizzard is now floating Vivendi's entertainment division. You can bet that Sony Entertainment is salivating for a piece of that action. You can also bet that whatever changes SOE makes to Vanguard it will be with an eye toward drawing it that gigantic contingent of players that SOE is not currently reaching with its EQ properties and derivative works. I'm afraid the days of the hardcore have ended with Vanguard.
I am afraid that the industry "suits" will give up on the EQI style of gaming as well and view Vanguard as a failure because it was a hardcore game. What Vanguard offered wasn't the problem though. I still believe a hardcore game could make money , maybe not Blizzard money but significant cash just the same.
I think it's been very clear to anyone who looks around that VG suffered from much much more than a steep death penalty. Mismangement, bugs galore, horrible performance on most systems and numerous things that we're wrong thruout beta and on into release. If you are going to do a game that is harder to play and harder to get into then you at least want two things:
1) Smooth, enjoyable gameplay
2) Content to make you enjoy chasing that golden carrot.
Vanguard felt tedious because nothing worked right. Seldom could you tell if something was hard because it was supposed to be hard or hard because it was some bug the developers never addressed.
A hardcore game could suceed again. I wasn't exactly sitting around in 2000 saying "Gee, I think I am the type of player who wants to grind 20-30 hours a week" but EQI got me doing it. Somebody just has to take the reigns and say "We will build a superior hardcore game". Brad said this but what he released wasn't anything close. We will soon see an influx of WOW and LoTR clones but somewhere theres a genius who will one day release a sandbox world that is tough, deep, huge and scary without it being a bug infested broken mess. Sigil and Vanguard just prolonged that game by not taking Microsoft's 30 million and turning out that triple A titile that they promised everyone. Money will not be thrown around like that again unless someone can prove they can produce.
The real reason the game blew up was Brad McQuaid and his lack of attention to the game (despite the efforts of the people actually trying to make the game). I think we all read the "Ex-Sigil" employee's interview and saw how he was never there to direct the way the game was going, he just got the money and went out to play. He only wanted to make a WoW killer and had no real plans on how to do it. That interview really opens your eyes to how bad he actually was and how bad he hated WoW for being a success and was in denial that he could make that WoW killer. So if anyone is really responsible for the implosion of the "Hardcore" gameplay its Brad. He BS'd everyone into believing what he said and his "Vision" but never delivered on it. We all should have known when Microsoft dropped him and SoE picked him up. I mean he is "Skipper" Smedly's little buddy, so who else would he run to, to bail him out? He should never be allowed to even suggest anything related to game, much the same way, if a mother abuses her children they get taken away and she not allowed to have more. Also, before this event, the hardcore gameplay style was slowly dying anyway (wasn't dead but on life support). The reason WoW did so well was because it was easy to get into, you could go far in small game sessions (people don't have as much time to just sit for hours in front of the PC all the time), if you had larger amounts of times you could get much further, and the game is very forgiving of mistakes. Thats why it did so well, and why hardcore playing has died off.
Also as far as Turbine goes, didn't they have a hand in Dungeons and Dragons online? I don't think that was a huge success, but maybe they learned with LoTRO? I haven't tried it yet, but it sounds like they changed some ideas to a much more forgiving game play ideal. Another thing, why does LoTRO have no trial (at least one that I can find anyway)? I don't trust games anymore with no trial, i've been burnt once too often, having to shell out 50 bucks only to get a game I really can't stand.
Unfortunately the OP is probably right. Let's hope not though.
Vanguard failed not because it was hardcore and couldn't attract a large enough playerbase, it failed because it was incomplete and buggy. The fact that it has been tagged as a hardcore game though, may influence some developers to believe it's failure was due in part because of it.
There is good marketshare possible for a hardcore game and hopefully some developers will pursue it.
To throw in my two cents here, I don't think that Vanguard's "hardcore" aspect had much of an effect on people. To me, it was the fact that the world was very unpolished, and it didn't look much better then games made six years ago. The character movement was also quite choppy and didn't feel nearly as smooth as wow. And in the end that's what it came down to, was a comparison of VG vs. Wow. Wow is smooth, fun to play, and for the most part very stable. VG was not smooth, and was definately not stable. That right there was just the big turnoff for me. I'm more then willing to give a shot to new MMOs because I think WoW is very shallow, especiallly as far as end game and forced raiding goes. But if the game looks like it's 5+ years old, and doesn't play well on a newer gaming computer, then it simply won't hold me for more then a few hours.
Why do people keep acting like hardcore means lots of grinding, or taking forever to level, or even a steep death penalty? People have gotten as caught up in the basic formula of game creation as developers have. A good game can be hard, and really take gaming skill to excel, but still be accessible to new players. There would have to be a system in the game that would allow you to start off taking it easy; maybe you could fight easier mobs, or take an easier death penalty, but gradually you would have to keep better.
I think something could work with more stratification in terms of this. Most games have two places. Usually it is levels 1-10, where everything is ridiculously easy, and this is good, because it gives players a chance to get familiar with the world, the game mechanics, the class, and everything about the game when they first get into it, but after that, things are pretty much how they will be for the rest of the game. Even WoW gets harder, though not really ever by much, as easy as it is. But if you had several tiers it could work better. No DP early on, a weak one later, and as you near the endgame a very steep one. You should be dying alot once you hit the top of the level cap. I think being the max level should indicate more than simply putting in X number of hours into the game. What it needs to show is that you know what the hell you are doing. I can't count the number of people I have seen in endgame instances in various games who didn't know how to play their class (and I'm not counting people that bought their account; you can tell those people right off). It's sad that it means nothing to be one of these high-level characters.
But then, I really would like to see a game sort of like Ryzom or EVE, with a skill system in place instead of levels, that was implemented with some degree of accessibility and...well, simple quality. With EVE it's still just about how long you've had the game, and with Ryzom it's just weird, though maybe it could be good if the game itself were any good. I think with a skill system you could do this sort of stratification much easier.
I guess what I am trying to say is that hardcore and casual shouldn't be mutually exclusive; a good developer who was willing to let go of the mold could create a world where they could coexist in peace. But then, like other people have said, this is really a new artform, and we as gamers have to be patient enough to let Picasso show up.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Originally posted by damian7 doesn't turbine make DDO? and um, i pray to God that there are no more companies LIKE ccp. maybe some indies that do well with their product, but, please God, not any more like ccp.
The point being made about Turbine was that Turbine was (and may still be) not widely known to the general public. Although Turbine had created Dungeons and Dragons Online, that particular title has not been a buzzword in the public. Again this the general public, I am typing about. When asking a person (who does not play online games) the question of, "Have you or do you know of Dungeons and Dragons Online?" The answer is most likely going to be either, "No" or "I played or heard of Dungeons and Dragon back in High School." When going more in depth of explaining of what these types of games are, answers tend to be, "oh yeah, my son plays those kinds of games, I think he likes this one called WOW."
The example of using CCP, was to show that a small company made a niche market game and succeeded.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
I think another problem is the nature of the internet, meaning instant reviews and word of mouth. Not saying that I think VG was even a good game, but from the begining there was speculation VG would end up owned by SoE and when Microsoft dumped them, they went back to SoE, so we know where the rest of this story ends up, but everyone knew about it instantly and started to complain/bash VG. The same happens the other direction too, like with WoW, word spread on the internet so fast it took off like a wild fire. So word of mouth can make or break a game (gameplay style) as well, particularly in this electronic world. I mean, it seems that games people may not like or aren't well made, don't have demo's or trials, or at least thats how most people seem to see it (wether or not its true).
You know what the saddest part is...I really like this game Vanguard, but even I can see a sinking ship and unless SOE gets on the ball and fixes this game up and really quick...it'll be a DDO or a Matrix Online or god forbid an AC2. I wish to see Vanguard succeed, really I do however there is some serious game issues that need worked out by SOE to get this game to shine. Hope they can do it.
For what its worth, I agree with you about the games potential. But the sad part is that its really just too late. There are way too many things wrong with the basic coding of the game. To really get this game working SOE will need to focus on such root-level problems (like the way the graphics are loaded and the way the chunks communicate) that they will not have any time to address the other considerable problems (like the blandness of the content after level 20).
Ultimately, this game was doomed the moment that Brad pushed it out the door in a desperate bid to generate enough revenue to keep his shop open. It would have been much better for the game (and much fairer to the consumers) if we had such sold it to Sony back in January and let them beta it for another year.
Comments
What makes you think that WH will be any different in the category of "not sucking at launch"?
For starters "games sucking at launch" isn't all that common anymore in MMOs. The only 2 bad launches I've been a part of were AO and VG. Games I played at launch that were "good" were EQ1, DDO, DAoC, and games that had exceptional launches were CoH/CoV, WoW, E&B and lately LOTRO. So I dunno were you are getting your info from.
Also, WAR just recently got a major funding boost that gave Mythic a few extra months of development time to "get it right" You know the exact opposite of SOE forcing VG out the door.
WAR will have an outstanding launch. Why? Because games that don't have good launches these days fail (see VG). Blizzard knew that, Turbine knew it and Mythic knows it too. Just because SOE doesn't have a clue doesn't mean noone else does.
Warhammer and I hate to say this (and I love Warhammer) will have the same problems other games will, I too played DAoC at launch and Eq1 and I can tell you when RvR/PvP started in DAoC there was so many one hit/shot kill exploits that it drove a good amount of people off. EQ1 had just as many if not more bugs than VGSOH. I even remember people complaining and leaving EQ1 due to the amount of death/XP loss bugs in the game which $OE put patch after patch and update after update to correct (just like VSSOH).
I beleive the devs even at Mythic will make a compromise with Warhammer as time goes on in the name of balance and bug fixes (they did with DAoC), it is just a matter of time.
The problem on top of the bugs that Vanguard has and a lot of other games know not to do (Brad is a dumb ass he couldn't help it) is put over 1000s upon 1000s of XP time sinks in a game that isn't fun but tedious. I know $OE will correct the problem and now that Brad is driving "Miss Daisy", they can hopefully make the game fun like EQ2 is.
On a side note and not to high jack the original topic of the poster, Brad listened to the wrong people in beta and he got the sand paper treatment in the end (along with the other SIgil helpers).
Bans a perma, but so are sigs in necro posts.
EAT ME MMORPG.com!
Really I get the impression WoW came along and with its great finicial gain was a significant motivator in companies realising they want Uber £££. Vanguard isn't that different it shares all the common MMO elements.. "go kill X of this and bring back Y which will only drop A amount of time" as *the example*. I dont think the outside success of blizzard was not a influence on Sigil. Hell the financiers should have gone something like : "whats this game"... *holds up WoW box.... "we would like this success please". Companies are it for profit ... there not there to pander to small deopgraphics need. ( Well unless legislation forces them... maybe hardcore people can goto government and get this eh ?)
No the whole MMO genre is pretty cliche.. but hey people like this. I know I lap it up sometimes though also rebuke it at the same time.
As I said before when the market gets saturated with WoW clones someone might go for a more niche market using previous technology .... and provide that hardcore experience (whatever the HELL hardcore really means nowadays anyways !)
How I think you would go about capitalizing on WoW's sucess.
We assume that a good percentage of MMOers playing WoW are new to the genre. Here's an anology.
You are learning to draw. You practice basic tecniques, keeping it easy, and as you get comfortable you gradually try to draw harder things.
If you're going to use WoW's sucess to you're benefit, you can't go at them head on. I would plan around the idea that as new MMOers experience WoW, they will begin to look for something a little harder. They will be familliar with the idea of playing a game for many, many months, and may begin to look for something a little deeper that they can invest time in. A good part of the WoW experience is also raiding, and a lot of WoW players will spend a good deal of thier time doing just that. Raiding is all about being grouped, and sharing that group experience; some become acustomed to being grouped. I would think that many people that leave WoW will leave desiring to continue that group experience in thier next game, and I would provide them that.
It's not about dethroning WoW, it's about utilizing the sucess of that game to your benefit. It's about apealling to those that leave WoW, because trying take the average WoW player just isn't feasable. I think that companies are going to find that creating "WoW clones" is only going to provide them with short term sucess, and require you to work much harder to keep the players you attract. I thnk that as many people hit end game in a game that feels very similliar to WoW, and find themselves doing the same things as they were doing in WoW, one of three things will happen. They will have built ties to the people they met in game and continue to play, they will desire a harder game, or they will go back to WoW.
Community is key, and more so if you are going to go head to head with WoW. You'll have to provide a reason to keep people doing what they were already doing in thier previous mmo. Consider the community aspect of the games that go head to head with WoW, EQ2 and LoTRO. EQ2 has some of the deepest guild features, a community asset if you will, then any game I've played; more games need to look at EQ2 as the standard in that department. LoTRO's fellowships are supposed to be a big part of the game as well.
VG wasn't designed to be the WoW killer, it was designed to be the next step in MMOer development, and in that regard it would be capatilizing off of WoW's sucess. I think that someone thought that the niche market that WoW would be dumping players in would be bigger; they were wrong. WoW could have 25 million subs and the number of players that would evolve to the "next level" of MMO gameplay would still be really small. I think that the magority of people that quit playing WoW will not play another MMO. I only have to look around at the people I know that played WoW to see the trend. Of a dozen or more people that I know personally that played WoW, I am the only one that is an MMOer; all the others have quit playing and gone back to single player, or online multiplayer games. They left the MMO market, and that I thnk will be were a lot of the WoW players go. Away. I don't think WoW will have as big an impact on the MMO market as people expect.
I'll be impressed if anyone reads all of that.
Wish Darkfall would release.
I think sometimes you have to make the long, drawn out, boring posts so that others understand what you're trying to say.
Sometimes people just don't get it.
Wish Darkfall would release.
Hardcore gaming will always survive and shine! RaR!
Until mom or dad told you to move out of the basements!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Why would I play in my parents basement? I have my own house with it's own basement, and I don't even play in it.
And how can I be in multiple basements at the same time.
You're really confusing me.
Wish Darkfall would release.
personally don't understand why devs don't hire a person that can come up with fun stuff on the fly in instanced zones on a regular basis. Also don't understand the lack of imagination that takes place (as far as quests) in a MMO.
But then again I've always said that players of MMOs could come up with better content than the people that make them
It is my opinion that hardcore gamers are a niche community that cannot be relied upon by a major budget game. It's like spending $30 million on roleplayers. There just isn't enough return for the investment.
I agree that hardcore gamers is a niche market, but lets be honest the ""Fun"" part of WoW and LOTRO runs out after about 4-5 months when you hit the level cap and do a few raids, afater that its all rinse and repeat.... The reason WoW is so popular is because its more of a social community then a gaming one... I don't see LOTRO which is basicaly a clone is going to steel away WoW's community....
If anything is going to take on WoW its going to have to be something nobody has seen before, something inventive that changes how we play MMO's... Right now I don't see anything like that....
Somebody made the comment that EQ1 had as poor of a launch as VG and that there really wasn't much of a difference in terms of bugs etc.
There is a tiny little difference: 8 years of development and about a 100 MMO launches in between. EQ1 was revolutionary and it having bugs was understandable especially considering it was the first game to require a 3D graphics card. VG on the other hand is just copying what others have done before + throw in a Magic the Gathering type card game. There is no excuse that 8 years down the road it should have had the bugs that it had/has.
I completely agree. 8 years of watching the genre move forward and seeing the reactions of the players to the various games and still the game companies learn nothing. It's as if they totally blow us off and then say screww the players(SOE does this continuely) we knw what is best for you. The simple fact is you must not...we're not playing your games! We'd love to play your game, but you force us to look elsewhere because you are to blinded by some kind of weird game designer philosphy that the people who play your games are inept and you in all your great wisdom can do no wrong.
Think again. We the players are really on your side. We cheer you on and say "yea! great...but can you tweak this and fix that and maybe add this to make the game *fun* ", and what do you do...you totally ignore us and we get the same old same old time and time again. Stop doing that! We will play your games - we wish to play your games but not as long as you continue to push garbage, bug ridden, poorly implemented games on us. Eventually it is going to implode and you're seeing it again in this game - Vanguard. We're tired of it .
You know what the saddest part is...I really like this game Vanguard, but even I can see a sinking ship and unless SOE gets on the ball and fixes this game up and really quick...it'll be a DDO or a Matrix Online or god forbid an AC2. I wish to see Vanguard succeed, really I do however there is some serious game issues that need worked out by SOE to get this game to shine. Hope they can do it.
You know, I really liked this game, a ton me and my wife were just talking about it while playing EQ2 here. I have alot of faith that SOE will bring this back to life and do what it did with eq 2. But if they dont come out with an expansion I think this game is doomed. That is the only thing that will give the players some sort of faith that they are trying to do something with it unlike Matrix Online. Well see what happens, but unless they come out with some sort of preformance improvment /bug fix/dupe fix/server merger/too much of a dmned grid fix/ PREFORMANCE IMPROVMENT, its to the tubes. But hell it was a good game.
I completely agree. 8 years of watching the genre move forward and seeing the reactions of the players to the various games and still the game companies learn nothing. It's as if they totally blow us off and then say screww the players(SOE does this continuely) we knw what is best for you. The simple fact is you must not...we're not playing your games! We'd love to play your game, but you force us to look elsewhere because you are to blinded by some kind of weird game designer philosphy that the people who play your games are inept and you in all your great wisdom can do no wrong.
Think again. We the players are really on your side. We cheer you on and say "yea! great...but can you tweak this and fix that and maybe add this to make the game *fun* ", and what do you do...you totally ignore us and we get the same old same old time and time again. Stop doing that! We will play your games - we wish to play your games but not as long as you continue to push garbage, bug ridden, poorly implemented games on us. Eventually it is going to implode and you're seeing it again in this game - Vanguard. We're tired of it .
You know what the saddest part is...I really like this game Vanguard, but even I can see a sinking ship and unless SOE gets on the ball and fixes this game up and really quick...it'll be a DDO or a Matrix Online or god forbid an AC2. I wish to see Vanguard succeed, really I do however there is some serious game issues that need worked out by SOE to get this game to shine. Hope they can do it.
Games are amazing. Like really amazingly amazing. And they're just getting started – thirty years is peanuts for a new medium. Gaming isn't even an infant yet. It's an embryo. It's a zygote. And here we all are, players and ex-players, all here at the very beginning, the inception of something really exciting and really important. I mean, “How often do you get to be there at the start of an art form? Once every 100 years?” So asuming that some people think 8 years is along time only proofs what i keep saying and that some people should really try and look beyond on type of genre and truly try and see where we actualy stand with games or its industrie, I keep hearing ignorant people saying, "We're tired of it" . This again shows people that hardly are able to have a realistic view upon games but only seem to be able to view it from their view-point. Sorry no offens but i kinda getting tired of this(not even a Staff-Writter has the guts to truly stand for what he should re-present but only is scared to not be liked by the so-called "haters" which dominate sites like this) I keep hearing Vanguard is for the niche but somehow the "haters" fail to see that the whole mmorpg scene is still niche else we would have had more then 5 BILLION mmorpg players and maybe near or bit more then 13/14 million single player or other pc game players, funny its actualy the other way around so stop pretending that Vanguard is niche as the whole genre of mmorpg is still niche. Not saying WoW hasn't done a great job at bringing mmorpg more world wide know cause that it has, it has brought allot more people to this niche type of gameplay but still its the minority of gamers actualy playing mmorpg compared to the general gaming population.
Please try and play other type games people, see what kind of problems those games have or not have, see that most new released games are still games that can not be played by the mass population cause the mass-population still goes with low-mid range systems and the nichy gamers are the minority with the better mid-high and uber systems (sure some games can be played at low spec but most recent released games still do not look good at low and still there are no games that print actual system specs on their box that are realistic to be enjoying hte game both gamewise and visuals.
Lets have a look at the masters of gaming. The 5 year old humans. Give them any random five pieces of something. Be it a ball, an empty cup or what ever. They gonna build a universe with those five pieces.
Problem of the game companies is: They long fogot about being 5 yo and they dont have a clue about *playing*. So, the industry shouldnt grow up, but remember what it means to play.
Vanguard was touted as a "hardcore"game but it simply wasn't. Ultimately it is a game with a claim to be many things it simply isn't. If you have played Vanguard you would understand that there is nothing "hardcore"about it. It is an unengaging simplistic grindfest that was poorly realised and poorly developed.
Hopefully the one lesson to come out of Vanguard is simply that you don't release a product like this into the open market - release is for when you have finished all beta testing and have a fully developed gaming world, hopefully with something new and/or interesting to offer.
The only thing that Vanguard should have killed off (apart from itself) is the idea that a half-assed product release is sufficient in this day and age of MMO's. The market at large will be unforgiving if any developer tries to do something like this again, and the result will be that no investment will recover from the contempt shown to the 'market' (ie. us) by releasing a product of this deficiency.
I am afraid that the industry "suits" will give up on the EQI style of gaming as well and view Vanguard as a failure because it was a hardcore game. What Vanguard offered wasn't the problem though. I still believe a hardcore game could make money , maybe not Blizzard money but significant cash just the same.
I think it's been very clear to anyone who looks around that VG suffered from much much more than a steep death penalty. Mismangement, bugs galore, horrible performance on most systems and numerous things that we're wrong thruout beta and on into release. If you are going to do a game that is harder to play and harder to get into then you at least want two things:
1) Smooth, enjoyable gameplay
2) Content to make you enjoy chasing that golden carrot.
Vanguard felt tedious because nothing worked right. Seldom could you tell if something was hard because it was supposed to be hard or hard because it was some bug the developers never addressed.
A hardcore game could suceed again. I wasn't exactly sitting around in 2000 saying "Gee, I think I am the type of player who wants to grind 20-30 hours a week" but EQI got me doing it. Somebody just has to take the reigns and say "We will build a superior hardcore game". Brad said this but what he released wasn't anything close. We will soon see an influx of WOW and LoTR clones but somewhere theres a genius who will one day release a sandbox world that is tough, deep, huge and scary without it being a bug infested broken mess. Sigil and Vanguard just prolonged that game by not taking Microsoft's 30 million and turning out that triple A titile that they promised everyone. Money will not be thrown around like that again unless someone can prove they can produce.
The real reason the game blew up was Brad McQuaid and his lack of attention to the game (despite the efforts of the people actually trying to make the game). I think we all read the "Ex-Sigil" employee's interview and saw how he was never there to direct the way the game was going, he just got the money and went out to play. He only wanted to make a WoW killer and had no real plans on how to do it. That interview really opens your eyes to how bad he actually was and how bad he hated WoW for being a success and was in denial that he could make that WoW killer. So if anyone is really responsible for the implosion of the "Hardcore" gameplay its Brad. He BS'd everyone into believing what he said and his "Vision" but never delivered on it. We all should have known when Microsoft dropped him and SoE picked him up. I mean he is "Skipper" Smedly's little buddy, so who else would he run to, to bail him out? He should never be allowed to even suggest anything related to game, much the same way, if a mother abuses her children they get taken away and she not allowed to have more. Also, before this event, the hardcore gameplay style was slowly dying anyway (wasn't dead but on life support). The reason WoW did so well was because it was easy to get into, you could go far in small game sessions (people don't have as much time to just sit for hours in front of the PC all the time), if you had larger amounts of times you could get much further, and the game is very forgiving of mistakes. Thats why it did so well, and why hardcore playing has died off.
Also as far as Turbine goes, didn't they have a hand in Dungeons and Dragons online? I don't think that was a huge success, but maybe they learned with LoTRO? I haven't tried it yet, but it sounds like they changed some ideas to a much more forgiving game play ideal. Another thing, why does LoTRO have no trial (at least one that I can find anyway)? I don't trust games anymore with no trial, i've been burnt once too often, having to shell out 50 bucks only to get a game I really can't stand.
Unfortunately the OP is probably right. Let's hope not though.
Vanguard failed not because it was hardcore and couldn't attract a large enough playerbase, it failed because it was incomplete and buggy. The fact that it has been tagged as a hardcore game though, may influence some developers to believe it's failure was due in part because of it.
There is good marketshare possible for a hardcore game and hopefully some developers will pursue it.
Why do people keep acting like hardcore means lots of grinding, or taking forever to level, or even a steep death penalty? People have gotten as caught up in the basic formula of game creation as developers have. A good game can be hard, and really take gaming skill to excel, but still be accessible to new players. There would have to be a system in the game that would allow you to start off taking it easy; maybe you could fight easier mobs, or take an easier death penalty, but gradually you would have to keep better.
I think something could work with more stratification in terms of this. Most games have two places. Usually it is levels 1-10, where everything is ridiculously easy, and this is good, because it gives players a chance to get familiar with the world, the game mechanics, the class, and everything about the game when they first get into it, but after that, things are pretty much how they will be for the rest of the game. Even WoW gets harder, though not really ever by much, as easy as it is. But if you had several tiers it could work better. No DP early on, a weak one later, and as you near the endgame a very steep one. You should be dying alot once you hit the top of the level cap. I think being the max level should indicate more than simply putting in X number of hours into the game. What it needs to show is that you know what the hell you are doing. I can't count the number of people I have seen in endgame instances in various games who didn't know how to play their class (and I'm not counting people that bought their account; you can tell those people right off). It's sad that it means nothing to be one of these high-level characters.
But then, I really would like to see a game sort of like Ryzom or EVE, with a skill system in place instead of levels, that was implemented with some degree of accessibility and...well, simple quality. With EVE it's still just about how long you've had the game, and with Ryzom it's just weird, though maybe it could be good if the game itself were any good. I think with a skill system you could do this sort of stratification much easier.
I guess what I am trying to say is that hardcore and casual shouldn't be mutually exclusive; a good developer who was willing to let go of the mold could create a world where they could coexist in peace. But then, like other people have said, this is really a new artform, and we as gamers have to be patient enough to let Picasso show up.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
The example of using CCP, was to show that a small company made a niche market game and succeeded.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
For what its worth, I agree with you about the games potential. But the sad part is that its really just too late. There are way too many things wrong with the basic coding of the game. To really get this game working SOE will need to focus on such root-level problems (like the way the graphics are loaded and the way the chunks communicate) that they will not have any time to address the other considerable problems (like the blandness of the content after level 20).
Ultimately, this game was doomed the moment that Brad pushed it out the door in a desperate bid to generate enough revenue to keep his shop open. It would have been much better for the game (and much fairer to the consumers) if we had such sold it to Sony back in January and let them beta it for another year.