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PvP centric MMORPGS will never work
sekira
Member UncommonPosts: 76
Never have... never will. Those that have tried....have they been successful? Maybe to a minimal extent, but relative to very successful games? No. Name some good mmorpgs games based mostly on PvP? Anyone?
The majority of mmorpg players DO NOT PVP, so a business approach to cater about 80% to PvP'ers will not doubt doom this game. This leaves you with a smaller community of players who will simply get frustrated by PvP'ing the majority of the time. Minimal PvE content will eventually force a player to PvP to successfully progress in the game... instead of allowing the player to choose to pvp on his/her own.
What does that leave you with? A game with 1/10th or less the population compared to another mmorpg that actually has a business approach that makes sense.
What a horrible flaw by Mythic. MMORPGs were never made to be solely PVP based because it's nearly impossible to have good PVP balance. Usually... it's horrible and people would die for semi-good. This is why very few people pvp 24/7 in these types of games and most never will. But what is that... your game lacks alternative gameplay for those who don't feel like PvP'ing every second?
I'm not saying this game doesn't have a chance of being a decent PvP game....but the odds are against it due to design flaws and it won't be nearly successful compared to most mmorpgs of the next generation because it fails to attract the type of people who play these games. 
Comments
2moons has 2million registered people...of course its not out yet but whatever
yes they will.
look at counter-strike.
While I agree with you that it's not the most wise course of action as far as a business model is concerned...I think that you have to look at this from the perspective that maybe the developers aren't trying to make a "wow killer" like so many people are expecting. They want to make a game that holds true to the Warhammer franchise. If they make a great game, people will play it...and you don't need eight million subscribers in order to be successful. Will this game see the same huge numbers as WoW? I would be more than willing to bet that it will not. Will it be a success in that the developers created a game that was faithful to their intellectual property that people will enjoy for years? Probably.
ps. I have no intentions at all of playing WAR...I'm sick of fantasy and am a 40k fan. Not to mention the fact that all of the gameplay videos that have been released have shown very generic gameplay with sloppy/boring animations and nothing at all origional.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
yes they will.
look at counter-strike.
MMO...Who told you that Counter-Strike was an MMO? This is called Apples to Oranges....
ps. It's not a matter of the poster being a carebear...but that does bring up a great point about why PvE players don't always care for those of us who like PvP...because of that stupid hollier than thou "look at how hardcore I am becaus I like to PK" attitude that so many PvP'ers have.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
yes they will.
look at counter-strike.
MMO...Who told you that Counter-Strike was an MMO? This is called Apples to Oranges....
*woosh*
ummmm.....DAOC anyone?? How about Guild Wars.
PvP is a huge selling point because it increases a game's lifespan. With PvE centric games there is a clear and concise end to the game and then people cancel their subscriptions and move on, with PvP there is no ending. PvP is the next big thing in MMOs, all the new ones coming out are going for strong PvP because that's what the players want, with PvE you save the world from the same threat that the party before you already saved the world from, your character has no real influence on his surroundings. In PvP players can advance the world themselves by doing things that the game didn't script out for them, in WAR you actually take over your enemy's capital city but the game doesn't script it so that if you try hard enough your guaranteed to suceed, the other team can still stop you every time and players like the feeling that what they do actually makes a difference.
-Snowman <- this name was taken.....but I like it more
The fact that very few companies actually make a good pvp mmo doesn't mean that it doesn't "work"
Eve is an incredible pvp experience and mmo.
DAOC is a very good rvr game.
L2 has a huge following in Asia.
So your point is disproved right there.
For me I am waiting for one company to make the game I have been waiting for: the dungeon crawling of EQ1, the pvp of shadowbane, the rvr of DAOC, the open character customization of Eve, the questing of WoW.
Then I will be happy.
yes they will.
look at counter-strike.
MMO...Who told you that Counter-Strike was an MMO? This is called Apples to Oranges....
*woosh*
Then clarify what the hell you are talking about. He said that no PvP centric MMO would be successfull, that one never has, and never will...you said that Counter Strike was an example of a contradiction to what he said...but Counter Strike obviously is not an MMO. So what the hell are you trying to say? I'm not someone with a low reading comprehension level, so don't try to pull that card with me.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
I allways avoided PvP, but then DAOC came along, and I have to say that was the most fun I ever had in any MMORPG.
RVR is way to go, just my opinion.
Peace
I'm with Loupster here. Apparently you haven't heard of Dark Age of Camelot. Mythic's first very successful MMOG.
yes they will.
look at counter-strike.
MMO...Who told you that Counter-Strike was an MMO? This is called Apples to Oranges....
*woosh*
Then clarify what the hell you are talking about. He said that no PvP centric MMO would be successfull, that one never has, and never will...you said that Counter Strike was an example of a contradiction to what he said...but Counter Strike obviously is not an MMO. So what the hell are you trying to say? I'm not someone with a low reading comprehension level, so don't try to pull that card with me.
Hey, hey, go easy on the big words. No need to take the internet seriously, here.
I was being sarcastic.
Yes I played DAoC back in 01/02. Apparently you don't know what PvP centric means.
DAOC had a great deal more pve than WAR probably will ever have...and that is a game that's 7 years old. Why compare it to a 7 year old game?
DAoC at it's peak also has probably 1/30th or less of the total subscribers of WoW. What is your point?
No other game has WoW numbers so therefore going by your statement every other game is a failure.
I won't play a game without PvP. There's only so many times you can bash on A.I till it becomes boring. There's a difference between "well thought out PvP" and "gank fest" games.
I think a game that focuses on PvP could work if the PvP actually means something in the game world. If the world changes depending on victories and loses then I think it could work quite well. The kind of PvP you see in games like WoW means nothing because it changes nothing. Not to mention how unbalanced it is.
I think a game that wants meaningful pvp has to be built around the concept that it is going to be a PvP game. Throwing PvP in to a PVE game as an after thought just doesnt work all that well.
What I dont get is why you decided to post this? Your opinion is noted, thanks for stopping in and having a chat. We appreciate it.
on a side note, warhammer being mostly pve would do a complete injustice to everything warhammer stands for
Well you have to consider that specialization works well in nearly every market. For example, the Apple Iphone is obviously outside the price range of most consumers. However their marketing only specialized and catered to a select few, and Apple only wanted 1% of the cell phone market. They are recently reaching this quota and will be making profit. This is also similar to restaurant business models where restaurants specialize in certain foods. Sure they offer variety, but there are those that extremely specialize in a select market, like maybe vegetarian cuisine. The group of pure hardcore pvp'rs are smaller then a group consisting of both non-pvp'rs and pvp'rs. But a small independent company running Fury online only needs a small chunk of the entire pot of online gamers who are dedicated to the game. They will never be as big as a company that has a game catered to both non-pvp'rs and pvp'rs but there will be a market for it and they will survive, given that that don't do somthing insanely stupid.
During it's time it had numbers to compete with EQ1 which is all that matters. If you're going to base everything on WoWs numbers well then good luck ever finding a "good" MMO.
What is YOUR point? DAoC was a PVP/RVR centric game. Yeah it had PVE so what, the majority of the game was centered around RVR.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
I highlighted the main problem with this post, you have no idea what Warhammer is going to bring and are just speculating. You do not have an educated opinion on this topic because you are using assumptions and not facts. As someone else already said, thanks for your opinion and for stopping by. G'day
That's right. Daoc is the "perfect" example of a successfull MMO centric RvR. (or pvp) The end game is focus on that entirely, and since it takes about a month max to get to 50 in Daoc, if you play a full year, you'll be playing 90% of your play time in PvP. (If you're on a classic server. We won't talk about ToA because even Mythic agree to say that it sucked and was an horrible mistake)
What deserves to be done, deserves to be "well" done...
Can a PvP heavy game make a profitable return? Im not sure there is a big market for it.
This isn't a FFA type of PvP either which is more niche but growing. Even if you hate PvP you can do PvE in WAR but your always adding to the PvP side of things, and your going to mis out on tons of content if you leave the PvP alone in this game.
WoW had tons of PvE content but crap PvP more people called for better PvP, WAR showed up. They bring the style of RvR to the table with creatures we are all familar with and an auto targeting system we are all familiar with too.
Is there really going to be enough people to make this game a sucess? I know its had like 300k for beta and I know my son talks about the game alot with his school mates, but is there content there to keep you in the game for a long time? When people PvP / RvR its not all the time, well not the majority. They explained how the RvR thing works well and im appreciative for that but Im still not convinced there will be enough PvE content.
Most games have PvP as end game, WAR has it all the way thru.
What if I wanted to just get my normal fix of PvE, enjoy quests, get immmersed all in the Warhammer universe? Im not too into the RvR fighting but I like the Warhammer lore.
Guess going to have to wait until game release to find out if im going to get gimped in that area. I hope there is enough thought going into the type of player who enjoys the PvE in this setting. Please don't call me a carebear, as I do like to PvP just not all the time and if this is a PvP heavy game I think its an important point to bring up. I'm only going off what a full time mom reads so sorry if im not all clued up either!
Apparently MapleStory is sitting on 50 million worldwide. Even Gamasutra agrees. I think we should set the bar there. MapleStory is obviously the superior game and all others should follow their standard.
When DAoC was released it really didn't have that much PvE compared to games of that time and of today. Lets not bring WoW into this conversation. I will refrain from saying what I think of that game. Personally, I could careless about any game coming out that is another fantasy genre mmog.. but I would more than likely check out WAR just for the PvP.
What I dont get is why you decided to post this? Your opinion is noted, thanks for stopping in and having a chat. We appreciate it.
on a side note, warhammer being mostly pve would do a complete injustice to everything warhammer stands for
I tell you why he has posted here because he is sick as a parrot that the only decent mmorpg coming out happens to be a RVR-PVP game lol.We will get loads of people coming here spouting off about WAR and its RVR-PVP outlook.Can we the PVPs help it that every freaking PVE game out there is either Broke(vanguard) Flawed(WOW) or damn right boring(lotr).I say let them come because it wont change a thing. Mythic are not Blizzard and WILL not bow down to whining PVE elitist who are scared of PVP because it exposes just how SHIT they are at any real competition.
Why do people seem to think you need 9 million subs to make a great mmorpg work lol.We dont care about massive SUBS and we now know that over 300.000 people signed up for beta and counting.WAR will have 2 million subs by the end of 2008 so why should we give a flying toss what you say or any other PVE elitists.
War has got PVE in it and if t hats not enough for you ..GO ELSE WHERE...
I don't say all PVE players are elitist but one thing i can say, they are gutted lol.
WAR IS COMING
Ghost Squad
Odds are with EA involved now things might get a little messy. DAoC at its peak didn't have more than 250k subs.Can a PvP heavy game make a profitable return? Im not sure there is a big market for it.
This isn't a FFA type of PvP either which is more niche but growing. Even if you hate PvP you can do PvE in WAR but your always adding to the PvP side of things, and your going to mis out on tons of content if you leave the PvP alone in this game.
WoW had tons of PvE content but crap PvP more people called for better PvP, WAR showed up. They bring the style of RvR to the table with creatures we are all familar with and an auto targeting system we are all familiar with too.
Is there really going to be enough people to make this game a sucess? I know its had like 300k for beta and I know my son talks about the game alot with his school mates, but is there content there to keep you in the game for a long time? When people PvP / RvR its not all the time, well not the majority. They explained how the RvR thing works well and im appreciative for that but Im still not convinced there will be enough PvE content.
Most games have PvP as end game, WAR has it all the way thru.
What if I wanted to just get my normal fix of PvE, enjoy quests, get immmersed all in the Warhammer universe? Im not too into the RvR fighting but I like the Warhammer lore.
Guess going to have to wait until game release to find out if im going to get gimped in that area. I hope there is enough thought going into the type of player who enjoys the PvE in this setting. Please don't call me a carebear, as I do like to PvP just not all the time and if this is a PvP heavy game I think its an important point to bring up. I'm only going off what a full time mom reads so sorry if im not all clued up either!
No disrespect here but you have been told time and again by the devs what this mmorpg is about.People can talk about it till they are blue in the face,it wont change a thing.
Paul Barnett has said time again that there are PLENY of other PVE mmorpg out there for the PVEs.WAR is a RVR-PVP-PVE game and that's the way it will stay.I am sorry all these other mmorpg have let you PVEs down. WAR caters to PVPs but if you want to hop on for the ride you are welcome,you might find you love the game.
WAR IS COMING
Ghost Squad