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PvP centric MMORPGS will never work

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  • TolwynnTolwynn Member Posts: 240

    all games will work. pvp or not - how monetarily successful they are, in regards to their Cost of Operation , is another story.

     

    but heck....if you made a mmorpg and based it on having to kick soda cans across a street and collect kazoo's over and over again....Someone will buy it ,play it and defend it and keep playing it.

    I dont think a PVP or PvE or RvR or RvE game...will ever become unfashoinable.

     

    they will be around longer than Edsel's in a junkyard and more will keep coming out for your great great great grandkids to enjoy.

     

    (edit- add 4 more 'greats')

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  • XtromassXtromass Member Posts: 662
    Originally posted by Pengysan


     
    Originally posted by sekira


    Never have... never will.

     

    yes they will.

    look at counter-strike.

    yeah, cause we all know that Counter-Strike is the most popular MMORPG ever made

  • TolwynnTolwynn Member Posts: 240

    most popular?

     

     

    or most distributed :)

     

     

    i would say every single person that bought Wow....knows of daoc and/or EQ1, and even UO...

     

    I would call eq,daoc and UO the most popular. Wow most distributed.

     

    same will hold true 1 decade from now.

     (save for Korea,chinese,etc.....even though we ALL know their market reeks of uo,eq,daoc...mostly uo)

     

     

     

     

     

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    <insert witty anecdote here>
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  • freakomarfreakomar Member Posts: 415

    yes they will, DAoC.

    Nuff said

    Played almost everything...
    Currently playing nothing...
    Waiting for: Darkfall, WAR, Guild Wars 2.

  • SramotaSramota Member Posts: 756

    To quote a very famous person:
    WoW is like beatles... And if you try to copy it, you'll just be another of those bands who are not beatles.

    WAR is... Like Led Zeppelin, AND IT ROCKS!


    'nuff said, thanks Paul.

    Played so far: 9Dragons, AO, AC, AC2, CoX, DAoC, DF, DnL, DR, DDO, Ent, EvE, EQ, EQ2, FoMK, FFO, Fury, GW, HG:L, HZ, L1, L2, M59, MU, NC1, NC2, PS, PT, R:O, RF:O, RYL, Ryzom, SL, SB, SW:G, TR, TCoS, MX:O, UO, VG, WAR, WoW...
    It all sucked.

  • TolwynnTolwynn Member Posts: 240

     UO=Chuck Barry ( the original, for 3/4 view)

    EQ1=Elvis ( the original for 3d view)

    Daoc=Beatles ( the original RVR,largescale warfare )

    AO/SWG=Bon Jovi (the original Sci-Fi(s)<----can be contested)

    ShadowBane=Falco( one hit wonder, no substance for longevity)

     

    Wow= Britney Spears,Christina Aguilera,Backstreet boys ( massively  distributed, watered-down content - longevity is questionable )

     

     

     

     

     

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    <insert gloat of ubar toon here>
    <insert random game here>
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    <insert witty anecdote here>
    <political/religious agenda here>

  • Darksider25Darksider25 Member Posts: 93

    Originally posted by Hellrise

    Originally posted by vajuras


     
    WAR is very PVE centric title, regardless of what others might have misinformed you. It is nothing like Shadowbane or UO, etc. Next, PVE'ers want balance just as much as PVPers.

    May i ask how did you come to this conclusion. As far as i seen in official presentation most of talk is about PvP hype of WAR. i never heard so far that this game is to address PvE players. Even the expectaions from WoW community for example are towards PvP in WAR not PvE.


    I talked to a Mythic dev at Comic Con and he said there will be plenty of PvE in the game. He said soloing will be easy to do if you are looking to do that. They really want players to participate in RvR though, he said its the best way to level....
  • deedelechachdeedelechach Member Posts: 64

    Originally posted by Darksider25


     
    I talked to a Mythic dev at Comic Con and he said there will be plenty of PvE in the game. He said soloing will be easy to do if you are looking to do that. They really want players to participate in RvR though, he said its the best way to level....
     
    mmm, leveling via RvR/PvP

    i can't wait!

    Currently Playing : WAR, UO, RL :p

  • BobCrazytonBobCrazyton Member UncommonPosts: 2,117

    Originally posted by sekira


    Never have... never will. Those that have tried....have they been successful? Maybe to a minimal extent, but relative to very successful games? No. Name some good mmorpgs games based mostly on PvP? Anyone?
    The majority of mmorpg players DO NOT PVP, so a business approach to cater about 80% to PvP'ers will not doubt doom this game.  This leaves you with a smaller community of players who will simply get frustrated by PvP'ing the majority of the time. Minimal PvE content will eventually force a player to PvP to successfully progress in the game... instead of allowing the player to choose to pvp on his/her own.
    What does that leave you with? A game with 1/10th or less the population  compared to another mmorpg that actually has a business approach that makes sense.
    What a horrible flaw by Mythic. MMORPGs were never made to be solely PVP based because it's nearly impossible to have good PVP balance. Usually... it's horrible and people would die for semi-good. This is why very few people pvp 24/7 in these types of games and most never will. But what is that... your game lacks alternative gameplay for those who don't feel like PvP'ing every second?
    I'm not saying this game doesn't have a chance of being a decent PvP game....but the odds are against it due to design flaws and it won't be nearly successful compared to most mmorpgs of the next generation because it fails to attract the type of people who play these games.

    Fail, fail, fail and more fail. Your post is full of fail.

  • davvindavvin Member UncommonPosts: 154

    hmm, now if there's so many MMORPG players that only enjoy PVE...why are all of the PVE centric games adding in PVP? maybe because more and more players are enjoying PVP? and why does WOW have so many PVP realms? obviously it's because there's a very small population of MMORPG players that enjoy PVP....

    i've known quite a few players who never PVP'd before and after they tried it a time or two really enjoy it.

  • ajs08ajs08 Member Posts: 35

    It won't be as big as PvE games, but it'll probably be sucsessful nonetheless.

    image

  • HellriseHellrise Member Posts: 12

    Originally posted by Raztor


    WoW's PvE raids + WAR's pvp sieges= 1 happy custumer (if it lives up to expectations). Sure I'm not going to be the only one either :)
    i can only agre.  my though is that WoW is going  to take even more triumphs of  WAR still before its launch.

    WAR should have been here already :(

  • jor8888jor8888 Member Posts: 378

    And look at pve focus game like Vanguard and lotr, they sure get alot of sub right?

     

  • FluteFlute Member UncommonPosts: 455

    Umm you guys did watch the podcast that shows you can "reach your capital city" (i.e. level up fully) without PvPing, and that the completion of PvE missions along the way still adds to control points for the RvR fight, right?

    WAR is not "either or", its a careful blend of PvP and PvE content that does not force anyone into either playstyle.  That said PvP is fun as long as it doesn't devolve into just ganking, and without it once you complete the scriped PvE content an absence of PvP means there is nothing to do in a loot-based world, particularly one with no depth to its crafting systems (in many games such as SW:G people would max out their combat skills then move into the richly designed harvester / crafter gamestyles).

  • vajurasvajuras Member Posts: 2,860

    Originally posted by osiriss


     
    Originally posted by vajuras


     
    Originally posted by sekira


    Never have... never will. Those that have tried....have they been successful? Maybe to a minimal extent, but relative to very successful games? No. Name some good mmorpgs games based mostly on PvP? Anyone?
    The majority of mmorpg players DO NOT PVP, so a business approach to cater about 80% to PvP'ers will not doubt doom this game.  This leaves you with a smaller community of players who will simply get frustrated by PvP'ing the majority of the time. Minimal PvE content will eventually force a player to PvP to successfully progress in the game... instead of allowing the player to choose to pvp on his/her own.
    What does that leave you with? A game with 1/10th or less the population  compared to another mmorpg that actually has a business approach that makes sense.
    What a horrible flaw by Mythic. MMORPGs were never made to be solely PVP based because it's nearly impossible to have good PVP balance. Usually... it's horrible and people would die for semi-good. This is why very few people pvp 24/7 in these types of games and most never will. But what is that... your game lacks alternative gameplay for those who don't feel like PvP'ing every second?
    I'm not saying this game doesn't have a chance of being a decent PvP game....but the odds are against it due to design flaws and it won't be nearly successful compared to most mmorpgs of the next generation because it fails to attract the type of people who play these games.

     

    this is a well thought out post actually but like others have pointed out you make many assumptions. this is the reason many devs just dont tell us anythng at all due to people making vast assumptions. WAR is very PVE centric title, regardless of what others might have misinformed you. It is nothing like Shadowbane or UO, etc. Next, PVE'ers want balance just as much as PVPers.

    The reason why is because it sucks to get turned down for a group or guild because you dont have uber gear or within a certain level range. Elitism and desire for balance exists on both sides of the field. do not think you are superior to PVPers in this regard

    You are seriously misinform if you think that WAR is very PVE centric lol.Where have you been for the last 2 years?obviously not following WAR or else you would know WAR is RVR-PVP-PVE .Everything you do in this game helps towards the war effort.

     

    Keep thinking this nonsense and you will be very disappointed.

     

    WAR is a game for both PVE/PVP that's all my post was saying. In old school UO you had no choice but to engage in PVP.

     

    In WAR you have a -choice-. It will be focused on making the experience enjoying for PVE/PVP that's all there is to it. My post was simple and straight forward.

    I was at San Diego Comic Con they never said anything there or in the podcasts this is a game just for PVP.

  • vajurasvajuras Member Posts: 2,860

    Originally posted by atziluth


     
    Originally posted by Hellrise

    Originally posted by vajuras


     
    WAR is very PVE centric title, regardless of what others might have misinformed you. It is nothing like Shadowbane or UO, etc. Next, PVE'ers want balance just as much as PVPers.

    May i ask how did you come to this conclusion. As far as i seen in official presentation most of talk is about PvP hype of WAR. i never heard so far that this game is to address PvE players. Even the expectaions from WoW community for example are towards PvP in WAR not PvE.

    He feels that unless it is FFA it is not true PvP.

     

    PvP = Player versus Player... ANY player versus player.

    The "hardcore" PvP fanboys are so amusing... just check my sig.

    I play BF2142, guild wars, and many other games. so um, yeah I have no idea what you're talking about seriously. in many of my posts I push up Guild Wars bigtime

  • thekzethekze Member UncommonPosts: 180

     

    Originally posted by sekira


    Never have... never will. Those that have tried....have they been successful? Maybe to a minimal extent, but relative to very successful games? No. Name some good mmorpgs games based mostly on PvP? Anyone?
    The majority of mmorpg players DO NOT PVP, so a business approach to cater about 80% to PvP'ers will not doubt doom this game.  This leaves you with a smaller community of players who will simply get frustrated by PvP'ing the majority of the time. Minimal PvE content will eventually force a player to PvP to successfully progress in the game... instead of allowing the player to choose to pvp on his/her own.
    What does that leave you with? A game with 1/10th or less the population  compared to another mmorpg that actually has a business approach that makes sense.
    What a horrible flaw by Mythic. MMORPGs were never made to be solely PVP based because it's nearly impossible to have good PVP balance. Usually... it's horrible and people would die for semi-good. This is why very few people pvp 24/7 in these types of games and most never will. But what is that... your game lacks alternative gameplay for those who don't feel like PvP'ing every second?
    I'm not saying this game doesn't have a chance of being a decent PvP game....but the odds are against it due to design flaws and it won't be nearly successful compared to most mmorpgs of the next generation because it fails to attract the type of people who play these games.

     

    DAoC, guild wars

  • AlienovrlordAlienovrlord Member Posts: 1,525

    Originally posted by sekira
    The majority of mmorpg players DO NOT PVP, so a business approach to cater about 80% to PvP'ers will not doubt doom this game. 

    Another little point, I might have agreed with the OP three years ago when a little company named Blizzard was releasing their first MMORPG and announced that1/2 of the servers would be dedicated to PvP.  I might have thought nobody would roll characters on those servers and the PvE servers would take all the population.

    Before the problems with WoW's PvP became apparent the PvP servers were just as populated as the PvE servers.  There is an interest, trying to ignore that is trying to ignore simple numbers.   A game that manages to do PvP well will be something all those players would like to see.

  • jor8888jor8888 Member Posts: 378
    Originally posted by iduums


    "DAoC at it's peak also has probably 1/30th or less of the total subscribers of WoW. What is your point?"
    6 years ago the total population of people playing MMO's was very little.  Maybe 1 million spread across 4 or 5 games tops.  You are trying to compare apples and oranges.  DAOC was the #2 subscription MMO behind everquest for a long time.  And it was a PVP (RVR) centric game.  If you mean FFA PVP then state Free for All.
    DAOC went down the tubes when they implemented TOA which they thought would give enough PVE/ High End Raiding that would take more away from EQ and it failed.  People who played daoc wanted to pvp not pve. 

     agreed, thats why WAR will be a success if they just focus on pvp instead of making pve screwing up pvp.

  • ArndurArndur Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 2,202

    PvP has been un balanced before becuase they chose pve over pvp. You can;'t have perfect balance for both. Like with rogues in wow. GIve them some pve things they become way op in pvp. if they choose to go pvp centric then they can balance more towards pvp. and since its a lvl 40 cap they have even said they want you to play end game and not lose intrest in the boreing lvling.

    Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.

    If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day.
    And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms

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  • TonevTonev Member Posts: 462
    Originally posted by jor8888


    And look at pve focus game like Vanguard and lotr, they sure get alot of sub right?
     

    All MMOS currently are PvE focus, I don't know one MMO on the shelf today that is PvP centric and if it is it has a lower population than Vanguard and LOTRO. PvP for content does not work, it's just the developers being lazy and not developing the game further than the state it's currently in.

  • ormstungaormstunga Member Posts: 736

    I think ppl want more PvP then what some assume... going by WoW isnt the best I know but for euro servers, all "recommended" servers are PvE except 2 which are PvPservers. All *Full* servers are PvPservers.

    so ye I think there's quite a few ppl who like the special kind of excitement that PvP offers... sure u cant make a game with NO PvE, but thats not what WAR is anyhow.

    *edit* there are ca 30 PvE servers (english) and ca 60 PvP servers (english).

  • puma713puma713 Member Posts: 288

    Originally posted by thekze


     
    Originally posted by sekira


    Never have... never will. Those that have tried....have they been successful? Maybe to a minimal extent, but relative to very successful games? No. Name some good mmorpgs games based mostly on PvP? Anyone?
    The majority of mmorpg players DO NOT PVP, so a business approach to cater about 80% to PvP'ers will not doubt doom this game.  This leaves you with a smaller community of players who will simply get frustrated by PvP'ing the majority of the time. Minimal PvE content will eventually force a player to PvP to successfully progress in the game... instead of allowing the player to choose to pvp on his/her own.
    What does that leave you with? A game with 1/10th or less the population  compared to another mmorpg that actually has a business approach that makes sense.
    What a horrible flaw by Mythic. MMORPGs were never made to be solely PVP based because it's nearly impossible to have good PVP balance. Usually... it's horrible and people would die for semi-good. This is why very few people pvp 24/7 in these types of games and most never will. But what is that... your game lacks alternative gameplay for those who don't feel like PvP'ing every second?
    I'm not saying this game doesn't have a chance of being a decent PvP game....but the odds are against it due to design flaws and it won't be nearly successful compared to most mmorpgs of the next generation because it fails to attract the type of people who play these games.

     

    DAoC, guild wars

    To be fair to the OP, people keep mentioning DAoC, but it wasn't mainly RvR until endgame.  In fact, it wasn't at all when it first came out.  WAR is advertised as being able to pvp right out of the box, while you pve; after all, you're living in a world of strife.  DAoC may have advertised RvR, but it wasn't an integral part of the game until much later.  It wasn't the backbone of the game - WAR is proclaiming that pvp is the game, but if you -must- pve, it'll be there for you.  DAoC was by and large a pve game with great pvp when you hit 50, or when they released battlegrounds and Darkness Falls.  It was, by no means, pvp-centric.  If it was, it would have had open pvp in the realms - but it didn't.  You had to go to the frontiers to pvp and, even then, it wasn't easy to find.  Then, they had to include a reason for people to pvp - so they placed in relics.  Then, they wanted to give more of an option, so they included battlegrounds and DF.  Finally, to get everyone involved, they created Frontiers (I think it was called) and, all at once, expanded pvp and ruined it at the same time.

    I agree with the OP, actually.  To make a game that is pvp-centric is a little foolish business wise.  That's why most lasting mmorpg's have 80% pve servers and 20% pvp servers.  I can't speak for Guild Wars because I've never played it.  But to create a game in such a way pigeonholes yourself into catering for one type of playerbase.  Sure, pve is available, but the game will be known as a pvp game - and that will drive people away, just like it has other pvp games in the past.

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    /played: EQ, EQ II, DAoC, WoW, LoTRO, AoC, CoH/CoV, WAR, Aion, Tera, Wildstar and many others that don't merit listing

    /playing: Clash of Clans, Hearthstone

  • TonevTonev Member Posts: 462

    Originally posted by Arndur


    PvP has been un balanced before becuase they chose pve over pvp. You can;'t have perfect balance for both. Like with rogues in wow. GIve them some pve things they become way op in pvp. if they choose to go pvp centric then they can balance more towards pvp. and since its a lvl 40 cap they have even said they want you to play end game and not lose intrest in the boreing lvling.
    The only game in the history of mankind that has had a perfect balance in perfecting the PvP/PvE aspect has been "Guild Wars" and they don't even classify themselves in the same Genre as a MMO (don't know why). They could put in a level 14 cap like DDO and it "still" could potentially be a boring ass game.

    Don't count all your chicks before the eggs are hatched I always say, Eventhough I like Warhammer, I'm putting it in the same category as the rest of the "hack and slash" mmos until I get to test it out for myself. Also, you have to take in consideration how the developers will market this game to pull in "all" of it's customers 357k is still a small amount of the pie when it comes to numbers and even then you have to realize that the PvErs still outweigh the PvPers.

    Do you think those numbers would be that wide if the game only catered to PvP crowd?

  • puma713puma713 Member Posts: 288

    Originally posted by Tonev


     
    Originally posted by Arndur


    PvP has been un balanced before becuase they chose pve over pvp. You can;'t have perfect balance for both. Like with rogues in wow. GIve them some pve things they become way op in pvp. if they choose to go pvp centric then they can balance more towards pvp. and since its a lvl 40 cap they have even said they want you to play end game and not lose intrest in the boreing lvling.
    The only game in the history of mankind that has had a perfect balance in perfecting the PvP/PvE aspect has been "Guild Wars" and they don't even classify themselves in the same Genre as a MMO (don't know why). They could put in a level 14 cap like DDO and it "still" could potentially be a boring ass game.

     

    Don't count all your chicks before the eggs are hatched I always say, Eventhough I like Warhammer, I'm putting it in the same category as the rest of the "hack and slash" mmos until I get to test it out for myself. Also, you have to take in consideration how the developers will market this game to pull in "all" of it's customers 357k is still a small amount of the pie when it comes to numbers and even then you have to realize that the PvErs still outweigh the PvPers.

    Do you think those numbers would be that wide if the game only catered to PvP crowd?

    You also have to take into account that this game is catering to long-time fans of the Warhammer games.  It is bringing people to the genre that maybe haven't tried it before, haven't had the experience of pve versus pvp.  Its hard to say with an arbitrary number like 375,00 beta singup.  Regardless of how many people have signed up, pve is a large majority of the playerbase of current mmo's and Warhammer is being sold as a pvp based game.  That's the bottom line. 

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    /played: EQ, EQ II, DAoC, WoW, LoTRO, AoC, CoH/CoV, WAR, Aion, Tera, Wildstar and many others that don't merit listing

    /playing: Clash of Clans, Hearthstone

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