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The fundamental problem with the WoW model
Intro
I'm sure this is not the first time this has been mentioned. Most MMO players have probably intuitively grasped that theres is something fundamentally lacking with the WoW MMORPG model. Let me clarify what i mean by the WoW model. By the WoW model, i mean MMORPGs where character progression and development is structured around experience-point based levels, where skills/actions are tiered and where the gameplay is mostly PvE based.
The Symptoms
The most obvious problem is end-game. Any MMORPG that is structured upon a level-based character progression system has an inevitable end-game. The very nature of a linear structure is that it must have a starting point and an end point, and in an industry where preserving subscribers is everything, the inevitable end-game is a contradiction to the business model.
Many game titles have attempted to solve the problem of end game by introducing new game mechanics such as 'reincarnation'', 'castle siege' or an expanded max level cap (Anarchy Online) While titles such WoW and EQ attempt to solve the problem of end-game by constantly providing new content updates (expansions) and new Raid zones. It seems that Raid has become synonymous with end-game, yet Raid is just an elaborated version of simple dungeon run played on a loop. The crux is that no matter how the problem is tackled, end-game can never be solved unless you the entire linear character progression structure is overhauled.
The next fundamental problem is that any level-based linear progression system leads a strata-fication of players and a tiered skill system. Both are unhelpful to creating a communal atmosphere and instead of making MMORPGs constructive, linear progression makes MMORPGs restrictive. It makes the gameplay experience one-dimensiona. In essence the the entire gameplay experience of a WoW model based MMORPs is reduced a singular experience of killing xxx monsters, moving onto the next tiered zone and repeat. Although you can argue that raiding, pvp and questing adds variation to the gameplay mechanic, yet it does not break from the static gameplay experience that dominates and turns everything into a repetitious loop.
And the third problem is that any linear character progression must rely heavily on PvE. You can't have a linear character progression based on PvP. Why not? One, issue of balance, linear progression results in a strata-fication and a high level with uber gear will always come out on top of a new player. Two, if get rid of a dependency on higher level gear/skill, and only base it on tweak then 'levels' become meaningless. Thus games where character progression are tied with PvP is in essence a ranking system. Although titles such GW and Fury allows characters can progress entirely tweak-based PvP and provide a step ladder to future MMORPGs, in their current state neither one can be called a MMORPG. In this sense, the PvP aspect of a WoW model MMORPG will always be pointless, they PvP in Wow are almost a kind of add-on to satisfy a proportion of the market without having a significant impact on the game world. Thus MMORPGs based on this model will never escape being PvE-centric, and the problem of PvE is that PvE content will eventually runs, leading into end game.
The Problem
So far i have pointed out some of the symptoms of the WoW MMORPG model, below i will deconstruct this model and argue why the linear character progression structure is self-contradictory as an MMORPG platform and ways to go around it. First we should think of a MMORPG as an industry that functions in accordance with business rules of capital growth. In other words, MMORPGs have to make money. Unlike stand-alone titles where the money is made from the number of hard sales, MMORPGs make money from creating and retaining player subscriptions. Whereas the business focal point (how the money is made) of stand alone titles are factors such as playability, entertainment value, repeatabliity, excitement factor, skill factor, simulation accuracy and so on, in the case of a MMORPG, this focal point is time - to keep the player subscribed for as long as possible. In other words, the MMORPG platform as a form of business has a set of structural characteristics that enable it to accumulate capital - namely the amount of time input from its subscribers. As a consequence, this dominating factor of trying to retain the consumer for as long as possible is manifested within the game content as linear character progression.
It's at this point that i think so many MMORPG game developers have failed miserably to think innovatively. Instead of looking to alter the very structure a linear progression, most game developers are merely satisfied with tweaking surface features such as races, weapons, skills, settings etc while retaining the same linear structure. As a consequence these game suffer from a deja vu effect, playing one korean game = playing all korean games. What in fact is happening here is that the game developers are letting the business structure over-dictate the game content. Rather than thinking of 'how to make a great game', the game developers are thinking first 'how to make an efficient MMORPG'. They are letting the business focus of creating subscriptions and then retaining as many as possible control the direction of the game content. Why are exp rate set at a 'xxx' rate, why do only level 100 boss drop the epic gear, why can only a level 60 Hunter use this epic Bow and use this awesome skill? Why can i only enter this dungeon at level 60, why can i only participate in castle siege at level 50? All these questions point directly to the business structure of the MMORPG and the fact that the game company wants to you to spend 'xxx' amount of time (pay 'xxx' amount of subscription/buy 'xxx' amount of cashshop items) inside the game world before certain content becomes available.
To put it bluntly the linear character progression system can be almost seen as a direct manifestation of the business structure behind the MMORPG platform. The content has become the function. When you kill xxx amount of mobs to gain the next level, you're not 'playing' the game, but in fact making a direct monetary transaction to the game company. Whilst titles such as WoW, EQ, CoX does make an attempt to provide players with content that at least give a 'sense of entertainment/excitement/achievement' some Korean companies have even gone as far as to make MMORPG entirely devoid of content where the game is only a mere manifestation of MMORPG business structure..
One may argue that perhaps the linear-based character progression somehow reflects real life, but i want to point out that this is constructed system that originated from console RPGs and has been transposed onto the MMO-platform. In real life if i find a uber sword i dont need to be xxx level to use it.
Yet ironically as i have pointed out in the first section, linear character progression structure faces the inevitable paradox of end-game. If you have a business platform structured around 'time' extended indefinitely , you can not have an 'end-game'. Yet no matter how game companies delay and disguise end-game, it is an inevitable outcome of level-based character progression. In a nutshell WoW will lead to its own fall. The only hope they have is to keep churning out expansions and keep pushing up the level cap indefinitely (EQ, EQII).
The Solution
So how do we break the linear character progression structure that dominates the current market. Well so far there is no successful answer. However what we can do is look to titles such as Eve Gw Warhammer and Fury. Although each one of these games is still trapped within a structure of linear progression, they nontheless offer some insights. In Eve, the character progression is in sync with 'real world' time and thus gives a feeling of extending onwards indefinitely. Gw, Warhammer and Fury allows players to progress from PvP and at least breaks from PvE content which has an end point - PvP has no end-point. Yet because they have not yet completely dispensed with a linear progression structure, these games still contain 'grind' and a structural end-point (learning all the skills).
The answer then seems to lie with 'sandbox' MMORPG, but 'sandbox' MMORPG are very hard to realize. Without a structure of 'levels' 'sandbox' can easily slip into a kind of MMO virtual reality akin to 2nd Life. To conclude i would offer what i see is the solution to the fundamental problem of WoW model. What so many MMORPG developers have been tied down with the business structure of the MMORPG platform and allowed that to dictate the content. What game developers should not let the business rule of retaining subscribers dicate the direction and the content of the game. They should think first of 'how to make a great' game and then think about how it work on a MMO plaftorm. What draws and keeps subscribers is interesting gameplay content and not content merely as manifestations of the business intent.
The first starting point is to kill PvE content.
Comments
I think the answer is radial progression as opposed to linear. What this means is rather than gain constantly more and more levels, you gain more skills and abilities instead that rounds out your character.
so for instance if you were a wizard and have gathered the required items to make the spell of fireball.. there will never be a fireball 2 or 3 or 4, and the fireball itself will not ever get any more powerful in terms of damage potential from the day you get it.
the difference is, that since there arent any levels or skills to choose from, the spell itself is made so that it can be adjusted to the likings of the wizard ( which in itself is content).
so in a traditional mmo you gain levels and your fireball has the illusion of geting more powerful ( the opposite is actually true when you compare it to enemies faced) fireball 1 fireball 2 fireball 3.. and so on..
in the free model we leave behind the idea of enhanced damage potential so a fireball will always do 24-32 damage, but we get all these options ( which have to be worked for) to modify that spell so it can be cast faster, be less resistable, increase the casting range, hit more enemies, have secondary effects. It will always do 24-32 damage though from the fireball itself.
what this means is that a players power increases radially instead of linearly. Think about the potential content if there were 1000 spells to earn ( not bought from vendors, well maybe a few..) , and many ways to manipulate the spells ( which make their own content) to modify your avatars abilities with those spells. Now factor in the exact same system but use gear instead of spells and add in a pvp model of gameplay. Endless customization means endless content in a pvp environment. People will always be trying to tweak out their spells, get new spells ( which can be added on the fly), tweak equipment, gain new equipment..
all that content wasted with these archaic levelling systems makes no sense to me. Yet they constantly complain how hard content is to make, they continue to develop linear systems that completely wastes content. Go figure.
First off I never even finished the free 30 back when I tried WoW at it's release. Never cared for the grphics or the lore but that was just me, and that is just one of those subjective things. What always amazes me though are the number of people who seem to find faults with it's game play when it has the subscription numbers it has. While some may not care for the basic design, which is once again a subjective opinion, there are a hell of a lot of people who do seem to like it well enough to shovel money into Blizzards coffers.
Saga Of Ryzom had a hell of a nice skill system, but oddly enough the game was never much of a success. Horizons had some interesting multi classing but again it was pretty much a flop also. Seems as if the old EQ diku make a lvl get spells and upgrades to spells is what most people prefer, simple as it is.
I miss DAoC
You have to realize that you are both right and wrong. You are right for yourself, but you are wrong for others.
With regards to "endgame" I believe that every game will hit an "endgame" regardless of how they are made. Everything will become repetitive regardless of weather it's PvP or not. People will quit the game at this point. It's more important to be able to draw new players consistently then to keep them playing. Most people who keep playing a game after a certain amount of time aren't really enjoying themselves anymore, but are forcing themselves to continue playing for friends or for addiction.
in the end it comes down to personal taste and people like yourself I believe are in the minority. I think if enough people really want a game like this they will band together and make said game instead of putting all the risk on the devs. If they are so certain this is the right way to make a MMO then they should go do it.
Another problem with the linear based mmo, is that you end up having so many zones sitting empty as the server matures. Anyone remember the old days of EQII where playing in antonica there would be tons of people playing in 3 different instances of it? Now try making an alt, it's damn near impossible to find a group.
I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his enemies; for the hardest victory is over self.
--Aristotle
I do agree with everything u just said and the only way it will get changed if the businesses stop caring about making the same thing over and ovber again because it is marketable and trying to make quick easy money(dam those capitalist pigs), and start careing about making something better than WoW
hello BBs...
yes; of course this has all been discussed before - but even if everyone here NOW had noticed; every take is slightly different and there's always room for a well-articulated discussion - right?
I trust you read the feature on the speech from bioware of how to beat wow? - and the concerns people posted therefore.
watching your logic and conclusions were for me at least interesting... I don't know if anyone but the rest of us "back seat developers" gives a rats ass - but there you go.
I think you might be interested ina somewhat similar discussion thread in which this post would have been quite at home: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/1611080#1611080
The fact that I posted on it has nothing to do with my mentioning it... of course.
Regardless; I can certainly agree that the need to keep customers has created a situation that reinforces the "grind as gameplay" model that frankly annoys so many people. What did the reviewer say; before games felt like a second job? - and i think you covered that well enough for me to move on...
But I'd like to point out; other than the social aspect (some will play be it static or dynamic) - that related to what i said that MANY players - a good part of the market (if not; sadly; the majority)- are in fact attracted TO the least common denominator - the hack and slash... Anyone who's played the old D&D modules remembers just how thin the "story" pretexts for pillaging baddies WERE... and that the other part of that common denominator is:
THE REWARD CYCLE. loot and leveling. I'll keep that as simple as it is - the feeling of accomplishment. How to maintain that sense - and what happens when a game fails to - is a seperate and well-covered topic
Quite to the point for now is that Loot & Leveling is the "least common denominator" of the reward cycle - just as "hack and slash" is the LCD of challenge/gameplay; if you will
however
is that true of Roleplayers - the storytellers - and similarly; of "Social" players? I suggest that these players are substantively different in that - not only is hack and slash not necessarily what excites them; but it is also not the LCD that registers to them as a REWARD. We all know players who feel more rewarded by for example; keeping everyone alive. Or simply by playing with their friends.
different theories of the types or styles of gamers have been a part of paper RPG's for a while... I see little accounting of that in what I, at least, have read of the MMO industry other than their PvP/PvE player preference schism.
In closing; I am definitely one of those players that asks for more (always was); but i also recognize that just as with movies; TV; etc; the easiest market IS the LCD -
and how little things have changed in game content/concept, well to illustrate I played diablo2 again lately - and if loot and levels is what its all about; well, it did everything the bulk of these games are doing.
How do we go about making the rest of the MMO market heard - or taken seriously as a customer base?
First off I never even finished the free 30 back when I tried WoW at it's release. Never cared for the grphics or the lore but that was just me, and that is just one of those subjective things. What always amazes me though are the number of people who seem to find faults with it's game play when it has the subscription numbers it has. While some may not care for the basic design, which is once again a subjective opinion, there are a hell of a lot of people who do seem to like it well enough to shovel money into Blizzards coffers.
Saga Of Ryzom had a hell of a nice skill system, but oddly enough the game was never much of a success. Horizons had some interesting multi classing but again it was pretty much a flop also. Seems as if the old EQ diku make a lvl get spells and upgrades to spells is what most people prefer, simple as it is
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I think this is as simple as, why do Kids were there pants down below there Buts???
Why do they were there hats like that ??? We all know it look s plain dumb !!!! But thes kids in there heads there so hardcore!!!
Like wildfire WoW spread from one kids home to the next...
WoW s greatess accomplishment was to Be the next biggest toy every kids annoyed there parents 24/7 to get .
This is what happened with WoW.. Its the Cool Kid game.
Not much diffrent like EQ1 s success>>> Its got alot more to do with timing and luck then a good game.
There are a few exeptions and yes A really bad game has no chance but I wouldent Say WoW is great cause they have alot of Kool Kids playing it.
Cause i look at the kool kids walking down the street and i can tell they have very bad taste.
Kids are Kids
Let them have there fun
My brother, and 3 co workers all play WoW and all three are middle aged and are married or involved in a relationship and all are respected professionalsin their fields. Our guild has a WOW sub chapter also and most ( appx 80%) of the players are 20 and above. So much for the stereotypes. Baclk to my original comment, where were all the people who wanted a different system when SWG was at it's peak? What about Ryzom and Horizons systems, their systems were not sufficient to make them a success.I think MMORPG players just like to complain to hear their keyboards click LOL
I miss DAoC
The closest I've seen to an answer is Darkfall. That is, if it turns out close to its potential.
My brother, and 3 co workers all play WoW and all three are middle aged and are married or involved in a relationship and all are respected professionalism their fields. Our guild has a WOW sub chapter also and most ( appx 80%) of the players are 20 and above. So much for the stereotypes. Back to my original comment, where were all the people who wanted a different system when SWG was at it's peak? What about Ryzom and Horizons systems, their systems were not sufficient to make them a success.I think MMORPG players just like to complain to hear their keyboards click LOL
This is true though I think it just comes down to personal preference. A lot of people on this message board seem to be people who want something different then the norm. The problem is that most people playing games are not't looking for another life. They are looking for some fun amusement that does not't require a lot of time. Many people are on this board are looking for a game that is going to replace their current lives with a in game one. I don't know if thats wrong or right, but I know it's the minority of people who are looking for a real virtual world that requires a lot of time investment to do anything.
WoW is playable even if your 20 + of age
and im not complaining About WoW.. I mean have fun with it misser Smart guy .
But its success isent all because its the best game ever made. The pointe im trying to make is.
I see posted often as a reply... If WoW is so bad why dos it have so many players.
And my reply to that is
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I think this is as simple as, why do Kids were there pants down below there Buts???
Why do they were there hats like that ??? We all know it look s plain dumb !!!! But thes kids in there heads there so hardcore!!!
Like wildfire WoW spread from one kids home to the next...
WoW s greatess accomplishment was to Be the next biggest toy every kids annoyed there parents 24/7 to get .
This is what happened with WoW.. Its the Cool Kid game.
Not much diffrent like EQ1 s success>>> Its got alot more to do with timing and luck then a good game.
There are a few exeptions and yes A really bad game has no chance but I wouldent Say WoW is great cause they have alot of Kool Kids playing it.
Cause i look at the kool kids walking down the street and i can tell they have very bad taste.
Kids are Kids
Let them have there fun
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Im sure theres as many Smart People like u playing WoW as there is Playing EQ2 or SWG or any othere MMORPG's
The big diffrence In WoW is they also have all the Kool Kids as well.
Character progression is about you traveling through the world and exploring your skills. You will gather new traits and modifications and become stronger because you learn how to use you spells more effectively. Your level is simply the number of spells+modifications you posses. It creates a whole new dimension if you are only allowed to have 60 spells+mods.
The game becomes more dependend on the players experience and skill with spell modification and usage and less on actual grinding up your character to be stronger.
One thing about WoW: Please do not call it a failure or it having huge problems. It simply doesn't for a huge majority of players. The game is very VERY succesfull and thus seems to utilize very good game mechanics. If you are one of the few that do not like it then you should start with an introduction of yourself as an example for a specific minority group and then write why - out of your view - the game has problems.
Btw: what is 'strata-fication' ?
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Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
it only makes sense that the game that devotes the most resources to "endgame" will have the best endgame. in a game where the endgame is also the begining game.. it only makes sense that it will have the "best" endgame.
that is what players want.
developers use level systems because they are lazy and truely lack creativity. They cut their own feet off trying to get players to stay, and really they are wasting their time because players wont quit a good game just because they reach maximum level. see any mmorpg. No one quits because they cant level anymore. They quit because there isnt enough content to support them playing at endgame.
i believe for replayabiity purposes you should be able to collect all the content in the game, but at any one time you should only be able to select a small subset of the things you have available to you. Everquest did this very well allowing you to only pick 8 spells at a time.
nobody has ever said they WONT play a game because it didnt feature "levels".
radial progression is the only solution that makes sense in a persistant world.
Kill PvE Content?
Thats sounds incredibly stupid to me to be honest.
Thats like owning a store were everything you sell is on the top shelf, so that only people over 2 meters can actually reach it and buy it.
Fact of the matter is no game can aim to live forever, regardless of model the game will eventually be obosolete in regards to technology.
Eq1 is I think 8 years now and not allthough not still going strong it is still turning a profit, No one can say for how much longer it can survive, but I suspect it will be around for quite a few years.
In fact most, if not all of the old games that also utilize the "wow model" is still alive and turnign a profit.
AC is also 8 years this year I believe, UO is 10.
Sierra the realm has died I think but Meridian59, has been resurected.
If making a profit is what these games are about for the developers and publishers then they are all ample successes.
WoW has made billions of dollars, I very much doubt anyone involved in that stellar financial achievment can se any problem at all, in fact there are none, they have made their money back a hundred fold, there are extremely few businesses in history as profitable as WoW in terms of payback on investment.
You are trying to come up with an idea to quite literally kill your Hen that lays the golden eggs as effectively a possible.
If you are trying to come up with something even MORE successful then WoW then complicating the game, removing features and increasing the learning curve by a factor of ten is is surely not the way.
It may work for you and me, but will not for the waste majority of gamers.
Studies have showed that MMO players today give a game, on average, far less then a week, probably closer to a day, to make their decision if they continue or not.
A Sandbox game, allthough admittedly can sound very appealing to veterans of the genre would have a VERY hard time retaining costumers beyond that point.
I will give you an A for effort, but a C for conclusion.
Kill of PvE?
Thats like making a PC game only playable with a gamepad, on Thursdays.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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Holy fuck! signs of intelligence on these forums.. hurry and drown out this post with ignorant "elitist" ramblings.
he posted the same exact topic on onrpg.
http://www.onrpg.com/boards/64832.html
OP missed one importend game in development thats DARKFALL its prolly clossed to what OP want ,go read it up on darkfall forums it will be totally different from what ones was or developed or on market right now:)
But you can wish what you want im affraid 99% of market wants wow model:(.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
LOL. Darkfall. just saying darkfall is like telling a self contained joke.
MMORPGs ... please note the RPG in there. What you have is a pen & paper Role Playing Game within an electronic medium, where many people can participate regardless of geographic location.
Being an older player (34 years old), I grew up with D&D, Rolemaster, Call of Cthulhu, Amber, etc. - and even these games, which are essentially co-operative stories, had an end. That is the fundamental flaw of MMOs. The publisher wants to drag them out to keep the money comming in, but the story has to have an end. So "End Game" becomes a grindfest, loop, etc. MMOs will NEVER replace, nor have the true feel of, a real role playing game.
If you're seeking the feel of a true RPG on the computer - play a solo RPG. Start with Baldur's Gate, Planescape, Fallout, Icewind Dale (the classics). Move on to Neverwinter Nights, Morrowind, SW:KOTOR, Oblivion, The Witcher (soon), etc.
If you're seeking the feel of a true RPG with others - turn off the computer, gather your friends, and play a real RPG.
This debate rages on and on... but a computer will never duplicate a multi-player role playing game.
WoW is just Diablo with lotsa people... hack, slash, get xp, get items, get more powerful. Rinse. Repeat.
WOW's only problem is that Blizzard couldn't manage to make every single person happy;) However, they managed to hit the 99.9% mark or at least the vast majority. Blizzard doesn't care about the hardcore no-lifers that want to lose themselves in the game for years on end. They simply don't matter. Blizzard doesn't need them like past MMOs. There are loads of people who still play to this day that started in beta. WOW"s online community is HUGE, sporting more fansites than any other MMO, so any problems someone thinks it has are meaningless to Blizzard. Besides, if you fixed some of those problems, you'd also kill WOW"s huge playerbase. So, which problem do you think Blizzard would prefer? HUGE playerbase of casual and hardcore players or a tiny elitist playerbase who bitch and moan all day long?
Its problems are subjective, when you've got 9 million people playing and its more critically acclaimed than any other MMO out there. Yes, some people doubt the numbers and think any of that critical acclaim is bunk...but they're also out of touch so they don't matter.
UO has an endgame too. The endgame is boredom and the fact is MOST people think UO is a bore. Same with Eve. Most people who play Eve can't get past the 1 day mark much less the 3 or 4 month mark. MOst people play WOW much longer than those who try Eve.
Who cares about an engame problem when a game like Eve has a start-game problem. Isn't it better for someone to play for 5 or 6 months and get bored, than play for 5 or 6 hours and quit? Yeah, I thought so.
Eve has so many MORE problems than WOW and they''ve been mentioned in every official review on the web.
Getting rid of PvE is brilliant. Give this guy an award=)
Let me clarify what i mean by killing PvE content.
PvP doest not simply equate to killing another player in duels or battling out in arenas. What PvP entails is competitive playing between players, where players compete to control resources, cities, dungeons etc. So instead of feeling accompolished by just trying to kill the big boss on the highest zone, guilds should compete first for the right to kill that boss and second compete to see which guild can kill the boss faster. This is what i mean by PvP.
So far so many MMORPGs have been entirely PvE-centric in that players compete against scripted AI.
If u really want to play PvE, go play single player games. MMORPG seems just to be a single player RPG with a lot of players playing on the same realm.
Why do u need NPCs to fight against when you have other humans playing?
Once again i point to titles such as Eve and PotBS, both games have shifted away from a reliance on PvE, and made their games PvP-centri and thus makes them more spontaneous and dynamic.
Oh did i mis a joke here:P
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
Becouse wow have millions of players, i can asure you that there are more hardcore players who lose there useless lifes in wow then almost all other mmorpgs togther, sorry to ruin your dream:P
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit