I'm only going to address the suggestion to "kill PvE content".
I assume that you mean there shouldn't be any mobs to kill. Go tromping through the woods and you won't see any big, bad wolves. Go down in a cave and you won't be attacked by goblins.
Well I think that's a bit extreme and it really isn't necessary to get rid of PvE content. Having hostile monsters (PvE content) isn't the problem, it's the purpose of PvE content in these games that is the problem.
In the typical linear grinder game the mobs are basically used like pinattas (spelling? You know, those things Mexican kids whack with sticks to break them open and then candy falls out). Mobs stand around stupidly waiting to be broken open so the players can get experience and loot. Seeking out mobs and breaking them open for these goodies is the entire basis of linear games.
But you could build a non-linear sandbox type game and still have mobs in it. Just find a different purpose for the mobs. In linear games getting to the mobs and killing them is the goal. Well what if the mobs themselves were not a goal to be sought out and ripped apart for goodies. What if, instead, they were simply obstacles in your path.
You want to travel from point A to point B. During your trip you encounter a nasty monster. The monster itself is not your goal in this case, it's an obstacle to be overcome. You don't get any experience for killing it and probably very little loot (nothing special certainly). So killing it is not the goal, just surviving the encounter and getting past it so you can continue on towards your destination is the goal.
Do you see the difference? Mobs could be used to add excitement, challenge, and a feeling of real adventure. But by treating them as obstacles to be overcome rather than the goal themselves you avoid the assembly line, methodical slaughter of the grinder games.
I think, what theyre refering to with "kill pve content" is that MMOs need to increase player to player interactions and decrease player to AI interactions. Why rely on mostly retarded AI to provide entertainment when there are thousands of actual players on a server?
I would like to see PVE mobs get even with players.
Lets take a simple kill x of y quest, you go to a cave that has the mobs in you kill them and return, another goes kills more and so on, but over time the mobs start to get mad cus your killing them all, so they grow in level a little and become smarter such as calling for help or fiegn'ing death for an ambush... when they become really mad they attack and camp the nearest villiage or town killing NPC's and players... player have go and fight them off to regain the town, completing their kill x of y quest while doing so and others getting exp and loot. The mobs then retreat back to the cave and return to their normal state untill enough of them are killed and they go the rampage again.
Ofc this should not happen with all mobs, the attack the village.town bit atleast.. but it would spice things up.
Your arguement fails because you failed to realize by default all MMOs are a subset of sandbox style mmos.
To be a sandbox game the game needs to provide enough tools where you can use your imagination to provide your own amusement, hence the term sandbox. All mmos provide such tools whether you like the nature of those tools or not.
What does WOW have, like 8 or 9 million subscribers? No, seriously, we only here that figure mentioned like 400 times a day on this forum alone. When is popularity ever an indicator of quality? Of course, this is a very dead horse. No one can back up the claim that "WOW is a crappy game", but you really cant make any kind of arguement for why WOW is a great MMO either. Oh, I forgot, 9 mil subs, how could we forget...
Popularity isn't a measure of quality. However, since WOW is also critically acclaimed from every single reputable website and publication, its quality is without question. You don't need any more proof than that. The fans love it and the critics love it. That means without any doubt the game is great.
The vast, VAST majority of people feel WOW is a higher quality game than other MMOs, because millions of people are NOT playing other MMOs. Millions of players who are done with WOW are NOT even spreading to other MMOs. If other MMOs were as interesting or as fun as WOW, millions of people would be playing them. Since they're not, its quite obvious other MMOs have much bigger PROBLEMS.
Only appealing to a small niche of players is a major problem. I can't recall in any business that having too many users or customers has ever been considered bad. But at MMORPG.com being popular doesn't mean anything except if you enjoy popular games, you're a sheep;) This from the same users who purposely create extra accounts to lower WOWs rating. How sad and pathetic is that?
I think, what theyre refering to with "kill pve content" is that MMOs need to increase player to player interactions and decrease player to AI interactions. Why rely on mostly retarded AI to provide entertainment when there are thousands of actual players on a server?
Yeah, I wasn't sure if he meant --get rid of all PvE content-- or --diminish the importance of PvE content--.
I agree with the sentiment that player interactions are important. And the players themselves could be used in many places where AI is normally used. I even think that players could take on the role of the Gods in a game. There would have to be limitations of course. A player controlled god wouldn't be adventuring in the world for example.
But a player could control a god as a kind of managment sub-game (which some people would like and some wouldn't want to mess with). Decide which actions will increase favor with your god and which will decrease it. Decide which powers to allocate to your priests and how strong those powers will be and how often they can be used.
Have your priests try to convert new worshippers, thus increasing the power available to you, thus allowing you to grant greater powers to your priests. But the more worshippers you have the more priests there will be and the pool of power will be diluted again. If you don't give enough benifits to your worshippers they will start leaving you to worship other gods. But if you grant too strong benefits your power will be depleted and will fail.
Something like this would be fairly simple to grasp on the surface but could lead to a great deal of complex interactions in the game. And it wouldn't even require any new technology. In fact, I'm sure it would be no more difficult to do the code for something like this than it would be for anything else in a mmorpg.
And if they did...then look...BAM, you have intelligently controlled Gods in the game who can actually interact with their worshippers.
And if the game isn't focused on character progression as all linear grinders are then things like this could (at least in part) take the place of the carrot on a stick of character progression. To gain a God to control a player would first have to found a new religion which could be a long involved process with the real possibility of failing and having to start over. And even after he achieves it his God could die through lack of worshippers or from overextending himself and draining away all his power.
But don't get confused and think that I'm suggesting that this player controlled God thing would be the only goal. There should be many, many, many different sorts of goals for players. This is just one possibility.
Josher, thats more of a testament to how poor the MMO market is right now. Ive heard plenty of WOW players say that they have been looking for something else for a while, theres just not much out there...so they go back to WOW. People arent going to leave WOW to go play some ultra-low quality game nor are they going to leave for a WOW clone that doesnt have enough content yet. But, if there were any new, different MMOs out right now you know there would be lots of WOW players jumping over. H3ll, I dont know if anything in this next crop will be that different or that great, but Id be willing to bet that WOW is going to lose a decent amount of subs.
I dont hate WOW, I just dont see anything about the game that makes it great. I actually followed it for a while before launch. When I saw friends/family playing it, it seemed like pretty much the same old stuff to me. Sure, they did a great job with polish and quality, but those things alone cant really make a game great.
i have to agree with Tatum - (post #54: for animals and minions - but i mean the last one)
While playing DDO the majority of our new players were people who'd left WoW looking for something different (and then would often surprise me by complaining it was different... yes the monsters here can actually hurt you... scary huh?)... only a minority were people who actually had tried the game because they were D&D players (" hey why are these monsters so WEAK?? ...")
I think a pretty common thread through all thses forums is that for people who have played for a while wanting something different - and that (to paraphrase) most games really aren't al that different in essence from running about diablo2 with a party.
People who are playing for social reasons will regardless... but there's a good bit looking for more "depth" or variety in the game itself. ( therefore the discussion of dynamic play: utilize all the real intelligences)
admittedly; forums such as these are skewed towards veteran & hard-core gamers - you could quickly forget the number of players just looking for "accessible" if you forget ; say; maple story's (or even wow's) audience.
edit: I'd love fetaures like neandrathals where the players became immortals (as in old D&D) - or more as i've suggested at least kings or what not - which for the 'evil' players would be more like - what was the game - dungeon master - where you ran a dungeon? instead of a town? - could be very interesting.
Games that are persistent to last through generations of characters' lives is something i suggested elsewhere.
'The first step is to kill PvE' is a hyperbole. Obviously if you really do kill PvE you'll end up with something like 2nd Life or a MMO and not a MMOG. But then again the main thing that's killing the MMORPG industry is a tendency to make PvE-centric games.
Once again im sure there are some people out there who do prefer PvE games and im sure game developers would still make PvE MMORPGs but the issue is that PvE focused MMORPGs do not even come close to realizing the potentials of the MMO platform.
Having 100 people fighting a single boss can be fun, but compared to 100 people fighting against 100 people with another 100 people waiting on the sidelines to stab one group in the back is much more dynamic compared to the former.
As one person said, its not the very idea of PvE content that is flawed, but rather the purpose it serves. In my view PvE should lead to some eventual change to the game world. I.E there is a big boss guiding a settlement, once its killed the players can then build a townhall there.
The problem with the WoW model PvE is that it doenst alter the physicality of the game world. To break it down, a lot of players see WoW PvE as PvE = Epic Gear and max level = PvP ownage = self indulgence. But the problem with that is you can simply take out the PvE part and go straight to PvP ownage = self indulgence by buying an existing account online or paying someone else to power level. In this sense then, WoW is not so different from GW in that both game lay on the psychology of self indulgence in winning in PvP, only GW does a much better job than WoW in that.
Unfortunately like one person pointed out, one of the reasons why people cant get int EVE is due its complexity and a lack of straightforward PvE content. Its quite sad to see that so many people worldwide are not intelligent enough to go step beyond being spoon-fed content. I have to congratulate Bliizard for doing such a great job at dumbing down the masses, but then again intelligent gamers are a rarity.
PS.
To the person who rebutted several of my arguments
1) Whether developers cater to the market demand or whether the market is fed by the developers is just like the arguemtn 'which came first, the egg or the chicken'. It's a complex issue, but to use an analogy its like looking after a baby. The market is spoon-fed whatever the developers feels like, until ther market gets so fed-up that it starts throwing up, and then the developers go and find another baby formula and spoon feeds the market until it settles down. In my opinion then, its always the developers who have the upper hand, its whether or not they are courageous enough.
2) What i meant when i said PvP is just as popular as PvE, im not simply restricting this to MMORPGs, but rather across the whole spectrum of the game industry. It's no brainer that PvE will be more popular in MMORPGs, because so many games are designed to be PvE centric.
Why do people watch Weekends at Bernies when there are comedy masterpieces like The big Lebowski out there? Why do people read cheezy harlequin novels when there are authors like Keruoac, Dostojevski, Hemingway and so forth? Why do people eat at MC Dondalds when home made food is ten times nicer, better and more enjoyable?
Im not entirely understanding you.
Isnt the phenomenon that people eat at McDonalds when home made food is ten times nicer, better and more enjoyable a testament of how the market is fed on what its given?
Sure some people are intelligent to see though this and judge for themselves, but lets face it a lot of people are easily converted by glossy surface qualities.
Why do people watch Weekends at Bernies when there are comedy masterpieces like The big Lebowski out there? Why do people read cheezy harlequin novels when there are authors like Keruoac, Dostojevski, Hemingway and so forth? Why do people eat at MC Dondalds when home made food is ten times nicer, better and more enjoyable?
Im not entirely understanding you.
Isnt the phenomenon that people eat at McDonalds when home made food is ten times nicer, better and more enjoyable a testament of how the market is fed on what its given?
Sure some people are intelligent to see though this and judge for themselves, but lets face it a lot of people are easily converted by glossy surface qualities.
I think the point he's trying to make is that people enjoy "slumming it" once in a while.
McDonalds is crappy food, and I can easily get or make something that tastes ten times better, but sometimes I just have to get a bag of those nasty little burgers, and nothing else, no matter how good, will satisfy that craving for bland pseudo-beef garbage sandwiches.
What does WOW have, like 8 or 9 million subscribers? No, seriously, we only here that figure mentioned like 400 times a day on this forum alone. When is popularity ever an indicator of quality? Of course, this is a very dead horse. No one can back up the claim that "WOW is a crappy game", but you really cant make any kind of arguement for why WOW is a great MMO either. Oh, I forgot, 9 mil subs, how could we forget...
Popularity isn't a measure of quality. However, since WOW is also critically acclaimed from every single reputable website and publication, its quality is without question. You don't need any more proof than that. The fans love it and the critics love it. That means without any doubt the game is great.
Just like McDonald's. Mass appeal does not equal greatness. Greatness is a quality assigned based upon individual opinion, not fact. It is fact that most fans and critics agree that WoW is great. It is opinion to say it IS without a doubt great.
The vast, VAST majority of people feel WOW is a higher quality game than other MMOs, because millions of people are NOT playing other MMOs. Millions of players who are done with WOW are NOT even spreading to other MMOs. If other MMOs were as interesting or as fun as WOW, millions of people would be playing them. Since they're not, its quite obvious other MMOs have much bigger PROBLEMS.
Mcdonald's again. Because millions of people are going to McDonald's and not to fancy 4 star resteraunts, it doesn't make McDonald's a higher quality, same is true for WoW.
Only appealing to a small niche of players is a major problem. I can't recall in any business that having too many users or customers has ever been considered bad. But at MMORPG.com being popular doesn't mean anything except if you enjoy popular games, you're a sheep;) This from the same users who purposely create extra accounts to lower WOWs rating. How sad and pathetic is that?
Appealling to a niche is not a major problem, it is capitalism. You need to take business 101 again, because you missed some very key points. There are several ways to make a profit. One can be gearing a business to a mass audience, like WoW. Another is by knowing that even the game with the mass audience won't attract 100% of the people, and so capitalism encourages entrepeneurs to jump on the unclaimed dollars and create 'niche' games. Millions drive Honda Civics. It is raved by its owners and critics alike. Porche's are owned by a much lower percentage of the population, they are regarded as a much higher quality product than the Civic. Porche is geared toward a niche audience. Does Porche have a major problem?
If future generations hold that Wal-Mart holds all the answers, the entire planet is doomed. Mass appeal never has and never will be synonomous with quality. It is only on rare, cosmicly aligned moments that something with mass appeal is also a product of quality.
What does WOW have, like 8 or 9 million subscribers? No, seriously, we only here that figure mentioned like 400 times a day on this forum alone. When is popularity ever an indicator of quality? Of course, this is a very dead horse. No one can back up the claim that "WOW is a crappy game", but you really cant make any kind of arguement for why WOW is a great MMO either. Oh, I forgot, 9 mil subs, how could we forget...
Things that are popular and of the highest quality.
What does WOW have, like 8 or 9 million subscribers? No, seriously, we only here that figure mentioned like 400 times a day on this forum alone. When is popularity ever an indicator of quality? Of course, this is a very dead horse. No one can back up the claim that "WOW is a crappy game", but you really cant make any kind of arguement for why WOW is a great MMO either. Oh, I forgot, 9 mil subs, how could we forget...
Popularity isn't a measure of quality. However, since WOW is also critically acclaimed from every single reputable website and publication, its quality is without question. You don't need any more proof than that. The fans love it and the critics love it. That means without any doubt the game is great.
Just like McDonald's. Mass appeal does not equal greatness. Greatness is a quality assigned based upon individual opinion, not fact. It is fact that most fans and critics agree that WoW is great. It is opinion to say it IS without a doubt great.
Your missing the point, WoW is popular and is the highest rated MMO ever.. Macdonalds is popular but will not win awards for its food and people do not recommend it.
The vast, VAST majority of people feel WOW is a higher quality game than other MMOs, because millions of people are NOT playing other MMOs. Millions of players who are done with WOW are NOT even spreading to other MMOs. If other MMOs were as interesting or as fun as WOW, millions of people would be playing them. Since they're not, its quite obvious other MMOs have much bigger PROBLEMS.
Mcdonald's again. Because millions of people are going to McDonald's and not to fancy 4 star resteraunts, it doesn't make McDonald's a higher quality, same is true for WoW.
More people buy IPODs than any other MP3 player.. more people buy coca cola than any other cola soft-drink, more people have bought a beetles album than any other artist... see what I am getting at?
Only appealing to a small niche of players is a major problem. I can't recall in any business that having too many users or customers has ever been considered bad. But at MMORPG.com being popular doesn't mean anything except if you enjoy popular games, you're a sheep;) This from the same users who purposely create extra accounts to lower WOWs rating. How sad and pathetic is that?
Appealling to a niche is not a major problem, it is capitalism. You need to take business 101 again, because you missed some very key points. There are several ways to make a profit. One can be gearing a business to a mass audience, like WoW. Another is by knowing that even the game with the mass audience won't attract 100% of the people, and so capitalism encourages entrepeneurs to jump on the unclaimed dollars and create 'niche' games. Millions drive Honda Civics. It is raved by its owners and critics alike. Porche's are owned by a much lower percentage of the population, they are regarded as a much higher quality product than the Civic. Porche is geared toward a niche audience. Does Porche have a major problem?
This would make sense if the cars where the same price, ask any 1.. "want this hona or this porche" which do you think they'll go for,
If future generations hold that Wal-Mart holds all the answers, the entire planet is doomed. Mass appeal never has and never will be synonomous with quality. It is only on rare, cosmicly aligned moments that something with mass appeal is also a product of quality.
I agree in terms of Quality wow is second to none. This doesn't mean it's for everyone, after all some people prefer McDonalds to a steak dinner.
But you can't really compare mmorpgs too food A) because all mmorpgs cost the same so price isn't an incentive. People buy McDonalds because of price not because they prefer it, but some might, I speak for the majority.
Second you can't really argue that WOW is not the highest quality mmorpg, objectively speaking, in terms of bugs, gameplay model, and everything else it is. Now you may not like the lore or the art, but even the art is the highest quality sinc eit is the most efficient. They do the most with the least and that is a part of that monolithic form I like to call quality. For example EQ2 has realistic graphics but everything looks fake because the animations are horendous, not opinion fact.
sorry going to say but WoW is higher quality than other mmos(other than LOTRO and some others) What quality is referring to is simply how polished it has made the game. Its graphics, its quests, the combat system all are crafted well. The thing is, it is a different mmo to some of the previous mmos. It is one based on fun, one based on quick thrills, one based on a light-hearted world with simplicity and accessibility the focus. For depth, immersiveness, dungeons, roleplaying, (maybe PvP for some people) you could find other games that satisfy better in that department.
I think someone is very confused, thou i fully understand the will to creat more nichy games for people like me who want more out of the experiance then a simple game like WOW. But trust me there is nothing wrong, you should have focussed your energy on games that are not as succesfull as WOW is regardless how you or me personaly feel about WOW.
Things that are popular and of the highest quality.
IPOD Coca cola Gameboy DS WoW The beetles
So quality does go hand in hand with popularity.
This is a joke right? Coca Cola? Quality?
Now when you say it I get the connection between Coca Cola and WOW. Just a cup full of sugar, no proteins, no vitamins, no fibres... just pure sugar. Quality? Hardly.
WOW is polished game for the masses. Made by Blizzard to make a buck.
It has nice: Graphics (if you are into elves and flower picking) , animations, PVE system (compare it to watching TV, a time killer, most dull part of every game)
It lacks: Depth, depth, depth, depth, depth... do I continue? I know many (around 20) people who got to 'end game' and got sick of WOW after only few months. And they all moved back to their original games they played years before that. Damn some even moved back to Anarchy Online.
And becouse of that lack of depth is it wide open for loosing all 9 (or be it 99) million subscribers to the first game with a bit better graphics, PVE and animation.
And before you start a holy crusade for defending this 'Coca Cola of the games' let me ask you a few questions:
- Can you build an empire in WOW?
- Can you get occupied by huge economy system?
- Can you go on endless exploring runs?
- Can you imagine yourself playing WOW with the same char for years and years, few hours a day, without getting bored?
I still play Diablo II occasionaly. And I am looking forward to new Starcraft. But WOW is something that has left my HDD after 45 minutes of gameplay. It has nothing to offer that I haven't seen in other games. NOTHING!
Coca Cola amongst the games.
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
The WoW model is not only restrictive, it has been kind of destructive in several ways. With its success there are many imitators and a firm belief that the WoW Way is the only Way. Its scary to see other people voice that opinion, to see such a lack of imagination or hope. What we are craving is simply a different type of MMOG, one that puts the linear leveling grind in the backseat, while putting real emphasis and reason to do/accomplish/experience the other fun aspects that are in games. Straight up anything just gets tedious.
What I think we want:
1) A genuinely rich and engaging story based MMORPG that has universal appeal. A story... it is as at least as important as gameplay and graphics. A great story will draw and retain people entirely on its own, always leaving them wanting more and seeing more, and it will make up for anything else.
Games like WoW have a sheer wall of quests that are mostly filler and forgettable, they exist because of the aforementioned WoW model. They rely on dangling certain big and epic things to keep you going, each one has to absolutely be more epic and grand than the one that came before. This causes degradation to the plot and invites what I like to call Generic Fantasy Crap (tm). Like TIME TRAVELING for example. Its always very CONVENIENT.
2) So far all I have seen is emphasis on leveling and PvP, or a combination of the two. It seems to be the only real way of progressing. We need to change that. This is where people draw blank whenever they try to think of a solution. I suggest that the current ideas of crafting and classes need to be buried. The horse is dead no matter how much the MMORPG industry may beat it.
~~~~~2a) Crafting needs to be taken seriously, not as an amusing means to support yours or others endeavors to reach end-game. A lot of people sincerely enjoy the paltry form of it they get. There is a lot of potential for crafting to evolve into a solid and independent route of game-play and progression in MMOGs. It would be a preferential style just like PvP and questing. This would require a different rule-set and more interactive world to work.
~~~~~2b) Classes, by their definition, are restrictive. Lots of games try to compensate by putting in talent trees or 5k classes, or racial bonuses. All of the spells are set in stone and pre-defined, which causes things to get stale and makes the world feel all the more static. A system needs to be developed where there is no idea of classes, and you can freely develop your characters strengths, weaknesses, and abilities through choices, allegiances, and events. Furthermore, a system that allows for (genuinely) new spells and abilities to be created. It would be hard to balance and create, but I am 100% it can be done and that we will eventually see it.
3) Major factions that matter, like in WoW, are generally a final decision as far as I know. They dictate what other factions you are against and your race and class options. Other factions are generally mobs or NPCs. Thats about the long and end of it. I don't know about you, but I would like to see some dynamic options here! I would like to be able to switch or at least change allegiances, and for those mob cults to be more than 5 ogres standing idly by a cave. WoW came close to this with their blood elves and draenei NPC factions.
Well haha, this took me nearly 3 hours to type out and I forgot half of what i was going to say at the beginning, but I think 1-2 were the most important things.
___________________ Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
Original poster has a well thought out, nicely articulated article on how these games are just fancy ratmazes.
Although I have no idea what his solution has anything to do with linear ratmaze gameplay. NPC's and the ratmaze? If your going to argue for the removal of NPC's, then do it because artificial intelligence doesn't exist yet (SHUT UP ABOUT OBLIVION I PLAYED IT!). One more word about Oblivion (gimmick AI) or Eve Online (gimmick economy) and im gonna lose it, I swear.
First and foremost i would like to point out that im not trying to judge whether WoW is a 'good' or a 'bad' game. The purpose of the thread is to point out a logical inconsistency with the WoW model aka linear progression when it is adapted into the MMO platform.
The inconsistency/contraditction is as follows
-MMORPG is a business
-The MMORPG business relies on keeping the subscribers subscribed indefinitely (forever)
-Linear progression logically leads to an end point - end game
-Therefore it contradicts the business structure of the MMORPG industry
-As a resutl we have these manifestation in games such as WoW, where to resolve the 'ending' that must not come about, game developers has resorted to cheap tricks instead of tackling the problem with innovative thinking
-The foremost of these tricks is an unnecessary delaying of the inevitable end-game through grind, the second is meaningless PvP that does not have an impact on the game world, third is end-game RAIDs, and fourth is static quest system that attempts to create a lore
I'll say this again, im not writing this as some personal vendetta against WoW, but merely frustrated at this unimaginative MMORPG model glorified by WoW and reduced what couldve been a revolutionary genre into a bland mindless kim chee grindfest
Now to address the issue of how to break through the linear progression system, personally i have several main ideas.
1) You can still have linear character progression, but at least dont make the game content so linear. What i mean is in games such as WoW., the very content of the game keeps reinforcing the linearity of the the character progression. In some Korean games, its even worse, they have no game content except to kill xxx mobs, level up then repeat. To put it bluntly if you going to have a MMPRG that is level based, then at least make the leveling process more dynamic. Instead kill xxx mobs or do this quest, allow players to level through PvE, crafting, PvP, quests, collecting trophies, trading, running dungeons etc etc.
2) Substitute the means of character progression from 'killing xxx' mobs with something else The casing point is EVE. EVE is still very much structured around linear progression, but instead of kill 'xxx' to level up, the means of linear progression is real world time. You can also substitute kill 'xxx mobs' to level with means such as finish xxx quest, have pay xxx amount of money, have xxx amount of reputation.
3) This is very much a hybrid of the two ideas i have mentioned above. Since RPGs are linear by nature, why not just make the level progression purely based on real 'time'. Subscribe for 2 months you'll reach level 60 regradless of how many hours you play. Even if you play 24 hours a day you'll still only get the same amount of levels as a person who didnt play a singe hour that day. This model does two things, first it evens up a lot of the player base and eliminates the problem of power leveling and also allows casual players to compete effectively with 'no lifers'. And secondly it frees up the game content from the need to 'allow players to level'. The casing point once again is EVE. Since it has solved the problem forcing players kill xxx to level, the developers are now able to concentrate on the game content that is freed from the restaint of character progression. If EVE had a system of leveling similar to WoW it wouldnt have so much freedom for RPing and player-driven content as it does today. Everyone would be too busy grinding to max level.
4) Get rid of levels all together and put an over-emphasis on the narrative. Casing point Zelda series. The Zelda RPGs work entirely on the narrative. Zelda does not have any levels, yet the Zelda like any other classic RPG is linear. But what makes it so distinct is that to get that new item, or to unlock that new skill the character must progress through a related to narrative. Translate that into the MMORPG world, instead being able to learn a skill when you reach level 'x' make it so that if u want to learn that new skill you must solve the dungeon.
5) Sandbox. Different strokes for different folks. Multiple playing styles, individualized storylines, freedom to move between different roles etc etc. Casing point 2nd Life, Wurm and A Tale of Desert. The game mechanics focuses on players interacting with each other and working together to achieve a range of goals that either conflicts with or are in common with other groups of players. In other words, let the player themselves make the storylines, make the game world , make the conflict.
I disagree Wow is not simple in the sense that it is easy...in fact out of all the mmorpgs it is the hardest too master.
I would have to disagree here. World of Warcraft is one of the easiest games to Master. All it takes is time and the ability to follow directions.
The classes are easy to manage with only a few different talent specs actually viable.
Don't get me wrong. The game can be fun. I had fun leveling my first 3 level 60s. The fourth one was a killer and I hated every minute of it. The end game is horrible though. Instead of providing more of the same fun content that helped level you to the end, they switch it up and provide faction grinding and raiding to get further improve your character. Where are the great quests to get good gear or better skills?
What is so wrong with having some quests that give out epic rewards. See the problem with a game like this is that it focuses so much on what their current Developers enjoy and those current devs are EQ1 players who loved endgame raiding. Now Blizzard doens't have quite the crush on the end game guilds that Brad has, but Blizzard's current Developer team is pretty close.
Personally I think Blizzard lost most of their great talent to Arenanet and Flagship Studios. (as well as some other smaller start ups).
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Comments
I do think saga of ryzom has a really good idea of how leveling cna be done, you can do everything if you want too.
playing eq2 and two worlds
I'm only going to address the suggestion to "kill PvE content".
I assume that you mean there shouldn't be any mobs to kill. Go tromping through the woods and you won't see any big, bad wolves. Go down in a cave and you won't be attacked by goblins.
Well I think that's a bit extreme and it really isn't necessary to get rid of PvE content. Having hostile monsters (PvE content) isn't the problem, it's the purpose of PvE content in these games that is the problem.
In the typical linear grinder game the mobs are basically used like pinattas (spelling? You know, those things Mexican kids whack with sticks to break them open and then candy falls out). Mobs stand around stupidly waiting to be broken open so the players can get experience and loot. Seeking out mobs and breaking them open for these goodies is the entire basis of linear games.
But you could build a non-linear sandbox type game and still have mobs in it. Just find a different purpose for the mobs. In linear games getting to the mobs and killing them is the goal. Well what if the mobs themselves were not a goal to be sought out and ripped apart for goodies. What if, instead, they were simply obstacles in your path.
You want to travel from point A to point B. During your trip you encounter a nasty monster. The monster itself is not your goal in this case, it's an obstacle to be overcome. You don't get any experience for killing it and probably very little loot (nothing special certainly). So killing it is not the goal, just surviving the encounter and getting past it so you can continue on towards your destination is the goal.
Do you see the difference? Mobs could be used to add excitement, challenge, and a feeling of real adventure. But by treating them as obstacles to be overcome rather than the goal themselves you avoid the assembly line, methodical slaughter of the grinder games.
I think, what theyre refering to with "kill pve content" is that MMOs need to increase player to player interactions and decrease player to AI interactions. Why rely on mostly retarded AI to provide entertainment when there are thousands of actual players on a server?
I would like to see PVE mobs get even with players.
Lets take a simple kill x of y quest, you go to a cave that has the mobs in you kill them and return, another goes kills more and so on, but over time the mobs start to get mad cus your killing them all, so they grow in level a little and become smarter such as calling for help or fiegn'ing death for an ambush... when they become really mad they attack and camp the nearest villiage or town killing NPC's and players... player have go and fight them off to regain the town, completing their kill x of y quest while doing so and others getting exp and loot. The mobs then retreat back to the cave and return to their normal state untill enough of them are killed and they go the rampage again.
Ofc this should not happen with all mobs, the attack the village.town bit atleast.. but it would spice things up.
Your arguement fails because you failed to realize by default all MMOs are a subset of sandbox style mmos.
To be a sandbox game the game needs to provide enough tools where you can use your imagination to provide your own amusement, hence the term sandbox. All mmos provide such tools whether you like the nature of those tools or not.
Popularity isn't a measure of quality. However, since WOW is also critically acclaimed from every single reputable website and publication, its quality is without question. You don't need any more proof than that. The fans love it and the critics love it. That means without any doubt the game is great.
The vast, VAST majority of people feel WOW is a higher quality game than other MMOs, because millions of people are NOT playing other MMOs. Millions of players who are done with WOW are NOT even spreading to other MMOs. If other MMOs were as interesting or as fun as WOW, millions of people would be playing them. Since they're not, its quite obvious other MMOs have much bigger PROBLEMS.
Only appealing to a small niche of players is a major problem. I can't recall in any business that having too many users or customers has ever been considered bad. But at MMORPG.com being popular doesn't mean anything except if you enjoy popular games, you're a sheep;) This from the same users who purposely create extra accounts to lower WOWs rating. How sad and pathetic is that?
I agree with the sentiment that player interactions are important. And the players themselves could be used in many places where AI is normally used. I even think that players could take on the role of the Gods in a game. There would have to be limitations of course. A player controlled god wouldn't be adventuring in the world for example.
But a player could control a god as a kind of managment sub-game (which some people would like and some wouldn't want to mess with). Decide which actions will increase favor with your god and which will decrease it. Decide which powers to allocate to your priests and how strong those powers will be and how often they can be used.
Have your priests try to convert new worshippers, thus increasing the power available to you, thus allowing you to grant greater powers to your priests. But the more worshippers you have the more priests there will be and the pool of power will be diluted again. If you don't give enough benifits to your worshippers they will start leaving you to worship other gods. But if you grant too strong benefits your power will be depleted and will fail.
Something like this would be fairly simple to grasp on the surface but could lead to a great deal of complex interactions in the game. And it wouldn't even require any new technology. In fact, I'm sure it would be no more difficult to do the code for something like this than it would be for anything else in a mmorpg.
And if they did...then look...BAM, you have intelligently controlled Gods in the game who can actually interact with their worshippers.
And if the game isn't focused on character progression as all linear grinders are then things like this could (at least in part) take the place of the carrot on a stick of character progression. To gain a God to control a player would first have to found a new religion which could be a long involved process with the real possibility of failing and having to start over. And even after he achieves it his God could die through lack of worshippers or from overextending himself and draining away all his power.
But don't get confused and think that I'm suggesting that this player controlled God thing would be the only goal. There should be many, many, many different sorts of goals for players. This is just one possibility.
Josher, thats more of a testament to how poor the MMO market is right now. Ive heard plenty of WOW players say that they have been looking for something else for a while, theres just not much out there...so they go back to WOW. People arent going to leave WOW to go play some ultra-low quality game nor are they going to leave for a WOW clone that doesnt have enough content yet. But, if there were any new, different MMOs out right now you know there would be lots of WOW players jumping over. H3ll, I dont know if anything in this next crop will be that different or that great, but Id be willing to bet that WOW is going to lose a decent amount of subs.
I dont hate WOW, I just dont see anything about the game that makes it great. I actually followed it for a while before launch. When I saw friends/family playing it, it seemed like pretty much the same old stuff to me. Sure, they did a great job with polish and quality, but those things alone cant really make a game great.
i have to agree with Tatum - (post #54: for animals and minions
- but i mean the last one)
While playing DDO the majority of our new players were people who'd left WoW looking for something different (and then would often surprise me by complaining it was different... yes the monsters here can actually hurt you... scary huh?)... only a minority were people who actually had tried the game because they were D&D players (" hey why are these monsters so WEAK?? ...")
I think a pretty common thread through all thses forums is that for people who have played for a while wanting something different - and that (to paraphrase) most games really aren't al that different in essence from running about diablo2 with a party.
People who are playing for social reasons will regardless... but there's a good bit looking for more "depth" or variety in the game itself. ( therefore the discussion of dynamic play: utilize all the real intelligences
)
admittedly; forums such as these are skewed towards veteran & hard-core gamers - you could quickly forget the number of players just looking for "accessible" if you forget ; say; maple story's (or even wow's) audience.
edit: I'd love fetaures like neandrathals where the players became immortals (as in old D&D) - or more as i've suggested at least kings or what not - which for the 'evil' players would be more like - what was the game - dungeon master - where you ran a dungeon? instead of a town? - could be very interesting.
Games that are persistent to last through generations of characters' lives is something i suggested elsewhere.
'The first step is to kill PvE' is a hyperbole. Obviously if you really do kill PvE you'll end up with something like 2nd Life or a MMO and not a MMOG. But then again the main thing that's killing the MMORPG industry is a tendency to make PvE-centric games.
Once again im sure there are some people out there who do prefer PvE games and im sure game developers would still make PvE MMORPGs but the issue is that PvE focused MMORPGs do not even come close to realizing the potentials of the MMO platform.
Having 100 people fighting a single boss can be fun, but compared to 100 people fighting against 100 people with another 100 people waiting on the sidelines to stab one group in the back is much more dynamic compared to the former.
As one person said, its not the very idea of PvE content that is flawed, but rather the purpose it serves. In my view PvE should lead to some eventual change to the game world. I.E there is a big boss guiding a settlement, once its killed the players can then build a townhall there.
The problem with the WoW model PvE is that it doenst alter the physicality of the game world. To break it down, a lot of players see WoW PvE as PvE = Epic Gear and max level = PvP ownage = self indulgence. But the problem with that is you can simply take out the PvE part and go straight to PvP ownage = self indulgence by buying an existing account online or paying someone else to power level. In this sense then, WoW is not so different from GW in that both game lay on the psychology of self indulgence in winning in PvP, only GW does a much better job than WoW in that.
Unfortunately like one person pointed out, one of the reasons why people cant get int EVE is due its complexity and a lack of straightforward PvE content. Its quite sad to see that so many people worldwide are not intelligent enough to go step beyond being spoon-fed content. I have to congratulate Bliizard for doing such a great job at dumbing down the masses, but then again intelligent gamers are a rarity.
PS.
To the person who rebutted several of my arguments
1) Whether developers cater to the market demand or whether the market is fed by the developers is just like the arguemtn 'which came first, the egg or the chicken'. It's a complex issue, but to use an analogy its like looking after a baby. The market is spoon-fed whatever the developers feels like, until ther market gets so fed-up that it starts throwing up, and then the developers go and find another baby formula and spoon feeds the market until it settles down. In my opinion then, its always the developers who have the upper hand, its whether or not they are courageous enough.
2) What i meant when i said PvP is just as popular as PvE, im not simply restricting this to MMORPGs, but rather across the whole spectrum of the game industry. It's no brainer that PvE will be more popular in MMORPGs, because so many games are designed to be PvE centric.
Isnt the phenomenon that people eat at McDonalds when home made food is ten times nicer, better and more enjoyable a testament of how the market is fed on what its given?
Sure some people are intelligent to see though this and judge for themselves, but lets face it a lot of people are easily converted by glossy surface qualities.
Isnt the phenomenon that people eat at McDonalds when home made food is ten times nicer, better and more enjoyable a testament of how the market is fed on what its given?
Sure some people are intelligent to see though this and judge for themselves, but lets face it a lot of people are easily converted by glossy surface qualities.
I think the point he's trying to make is that people enjoy "slumming it" once in a while.
McDonalds is crappy food, and I can easily get or make something that tastes ten times better, but sometimes I just have to get a bag of those nasty little burgers, and nothing else, no matter how good, will satisfy that craving for bland pseudo-beef garbage sandwiches.
Popularity isn't a measure of quality. However, since WOW is also critically acclaimed from every single reputable website and publication, its quality is without question. You don't need any more proof than that. The fans love it and the critics love it. That means without any doubt the game is great.
Just like McDonald's. Mass appeal does not equal greatness. Greatness is a quality assigned based upon individual opinion, not fact. It is fact that most fans and critics agree that WoW is great. It is opinion to say it IS without a doubt great.
The vast, VAST majority of people feel WOW is a higher quality game than other MMOs, because millions of people are NOT playing other MMOs. Millions of players who are done with WOW are NOT even spreading to other MMOs. If other MMOs were as interesting or as fun as WOW, millions of people would be playing them. Since they're not, its quite obvious other MMOs have much bigger PROBLEMS.
Mcdonald's again. Because millions of people are going to McDonald's and not to fancy 4 star resteraunts, it doesn't make McDonald's a higher quality, same is true for WoW.
Only appealing to a small niche of players is a major problem. I can't recall in any business that having too many users or customers has ever been considered bad. But at MMORPG.com being popular doesn't mean anything except if you enjoy popular games, you're a sheep;) This from the same users who purposely create extra accounts to lower WOWs rating. How sad and pathetic is that?
Appealling to a niche is not a major problem, it is capitalism. You need to take business 101 again, because you missed some very key points. There are several ways to make a profit. One can be gearing a business to a mass audience, like WoW. Another is by knowing that even the game with the mass audience won't attract 100% of the people, and so capitalism encourages entrepeneurs to jump on the unclaimed dollars and create 'niche' games. Millions drive Honda Civics. It is raved by its owners and critics alike. Porche's are owned by a much lower percentage of the population, they are regarded as a much higher quality product than the Civic. Porche is geared toward a niche audience. Does Porche have a major problem?
If future generations hold that Wal-Mart holds all the answers, the entire planet is doomed. Mass appeal never has and never will be synonomous with quality. It is only on rare, cosmicly aligned moments that something with mass appeal is also a product of quality.
Things that are popular and of the highest quality.
So quality does go hand in hand with popularity.
Popularity isn't a measure of quality. However, since WOW is also critically acclaimed from every single reputable website and publication, its quality is without question. You don't need any more proof than that. The fans love it and the critics love it. That means without any doubt the game is great.
Just like McDonald's. Mass appeal does not equal greatness. Greatness is a quality assigned based upon individual opinion, not fact. It is fact that most fans and critics agree that WoW is great. It is opinion to say it IS without a doubt great.
Your missing the point, WoW is popular and is the highest rated MMO ever.. Macdonalds is popular but will not win awards for its food and people do not recommend it.
The vast, VAST majority of people feel WOW is a higher quality game than other MMOs, because millions of people are NOT playing other MMOs. Millions of players who are done with WOW are NOT even spreading to other MMOs. If other MMOs were as interesting or as fun as WOW, millions of people would be playing them. Since they're not, its quite obvious other MMOs have much bigger PROBLEMS.
Mcdonald's again. Because millions of people are going to McDonald's and not to fancy 4 star resteraunts, it doesn't make McDonald's a higher quality, same is true for WoW.
More people buy IPODs than any other MP3 player.. more people buy coca cola than any other cola soft-drink, more people have bought a beetles album than any other artist... see what I am getting at?
Only appealing to a small niche of players is a major problem. I can't recall in any business that having too many users or customers has ever been considered bad. But at MMORPG.com being popular doesn't mean anything except if you enjoy popular games, you're a sheep;) This from the same users who purposely create extra accounts to lower WOWs rating. How sad and pathetic is that?
Appealling to a niche is not a major problem, it is capitalism. You need to take business 101 again, because you missed some very key points. There are several ways to make a profit. One can be gearing a business to a mass audience, like WoW. Another is by knowing that even the game with the mass audience won't attract 100% of the people, and so capitalism encourages entrepeneurs to jump on the unclaimed dollars and create 'niche' games. Millions drive Honda Civics. It is raved by its owners and critics alike. Porche's are owned by a much lower percentage of the population, they are regarded as a much higher quality product than the Civic. Porche is geared toward a niche audience. Does Porche have a major problem?
This would make sense if the cars where the same price, ask any 1.. "want this hona or this porche" which do you think they'll go for,
If future generations hold that Wal-Mart holds all the answers, the entire planet is doomed. Mass appeal never has and never will be synonomous with quality. It is only on rare, cosmicly aligned moments that something with mass appeal is also a product of quality.
Like WoW
I agree in terms of Quality wow is second to none. This doesn't mean it's for everyone, after all some people prefer McDonalds to a steak dinner.
But you can't really compare mmorpgs too food A) because all mmorpgs cost the same so price isn't an incentive. People buy McDonalds because of price not because they prefer it, but some might, I speak for the majority.
Second you can't really argue that WOW is not the highest quality mmorpg, objectively speaking, in terms of bugs, gameplay model, and everything else it is. Now you may not like the lore or the art, but even the art is the highest quality sinc eit is the most efficient. They do the most with the least and that is a part of that monolithic form I like to call quality. For example EQ2 has realistic graphics but everything looks fake because the animations are horendous, not opinion fact.
Other things that people by in mass that shows quality are burkenstocks, bathin apes, and airforce ones.
sorry going to say but WoW is higher quality than other mmos(other than LOTRO and some others) What quality is referring to is simply how polished it has made the game. Its graphics, its quests, the combat system all are crafted well. The thing is, it is a different mmo to some of the previous mmos. It is one based on fun, one based on quick thrills, one based on a light-hearted world with simplicity and accessibility the focus. For depth, immersiveness, dungeons, roleplaying, (maybe PvP for some people) you could find other games that satisfy better in that department.
Lol??? The fundamental problem with the WoW model
I think someone is very confused, thou i fully understand the will to creat more nichy games for people like me who want more out of the experiance then a simple game like WOW. But trust me there is nothing wrong, you should have focussed your energy on games that are not as succesfull as WOW is regardless how you or me personaly feel about WOW.
This is a joke right? Coca Cola? Quality?
Now when you say it I get the connection between Coca Cola and WOW. Just a cup full of sugar, no proteins, no vitamins, no fibres... just pure sugar. Quality? Hardly.
WOW is polished game for the masses. Made by Blizzard to make a buck.
It has nice: Graphics (if you are into elves and flower picking) , animations, PVE system (compare it to watching TV, a time killer, most dull part of every game)
It lacks: Depth, depth, depth, depth, depth... do I continue? I know many (around 20) people who got to 'end game' and got sick of WOW after only few months. And they all moved back to their original games they played years before that. Damn some even moved back to Anarchy Online.
And becouse of that lack of depth is it wide open for loosing all 9 (or be it 99) million subscribers to the first game with a bit better graphics, PVE and animation.
And before you start a holy crusade for defending this 'Coca Cola of the games' let me ask you a few questions:
- Can you build an empire in WOW?
- Can you get occupied by huge economy system?
- Can you go on endless exploring runs?
- Can you imagine yourself playing WOW with the same char for years and years, few hours a day, without getting bored?
I still play Diablo II occasionaly. And I am looking forward to new Starcraft. But WOW is something that has left my HDD after 45 minutes of gameplay. It has nothing to offer that I haven't seen in other games. NOTHING!
Coca Cola amongst the games.
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
The WoW model is not only restrictive, it has been kind of destructive in several ways. With its success there are many imitators and a firm belief that the WoW Way is the only Way. Its scary to see other people voice that opinion, to see such a lack of imagination or hope. What we are craving is simply a different type of MMOG, one that puts the linear leveling grind in the backseat, while putting real emphasis and reason to do/accomplish/experience the other fun aspects that are in games. Straight up anything just gets tedious.
What I think we want:
1) A genuinely rich and engaging story based MMORPG that has universal appeal. A story... it is as at least as important as gameplay and graphics. A great story will draw and retain people entirely on its own, always leaving them wanting more and seeing more, and it will make up for anything else.
Games like WoW have a sheer wall of quests that are mostly filler and forgettable, they exist because of the aforementioned WoW model. They rely on dangling certain big and epic things to keep you going, each one has to absolutely be more epic and grand than the one that came before. This causes degradation to the plot and invites what I like to call Generic Fantasy Crap (tm). Like TIME TRAVELING for example. Its always very CONVENIENT.
2) So far all I have seen is emphasis on leveling and PvP, or a combination of the two. It seems to be the only real way of progressing. We need to change that. This is where people draw blank whenever they try to think of a solution. I suggest that the current ideas of crafting and classes need to be buried. The horse is dead no matter how much the MMORPG industry may beat it.
~~~~~2a) Crafting needs to be taken seriously, not as an amusing means to support yours or others endeavors to reach end-game. A lot of people sincerely enjoy the paltry form of it they get. There is a lot of potential for crafting to evolve into a solid and independent route of game-play and progression in MMOGs. It would be a preferential style just like PvP and questing. This would require a different rule-set and more interactive world to work.
~~~~~2b) Classes, by their definition, are restrictive. Lots of games try to compensate by putting in talent trees or 5k classes, or racial bonuses. All of the spells are set in stone and pre-defined, which causes things to get stale and makes the world feel all the more static. A system needs to be developed where there is no idea of classes, and you can freely develop your characters strengths, weaknesses, and abilities through choices, allegiances, and events. Furthermore, a system that allows for (genuinely) new spells and abilities to be created. It would be hard to balance and create, but I am 100% it can be done and that we will eventually see it.
3) Major factions that matter, like in WoW, are generally a final decision as far as I know. They dictate what other factions you are against and your race and class options. Other factions are generally mobs or NPCs. Thats about the long and end of it. I don't know about you, but I would like to see some dynamic options here! I would like to be able to switch or at least change allegiances, and for those mob cults to be more than 5 ogres standing idly by a cave. WoW came close to this with their blood elves and draenei NPC factions.
Well haha, this took me nearly 3 hours to type out and I forgot half of what i was going to say at the beginning, but I think 1-2 were the most important things.
___________________
Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/12/13/
Original poster has a well thought out, nicely articulated article on how these games are just fancy ratmazes.
Although I have no idea what his solution has anything to do with linear ratmaze gameplay. NPC's and the ratmaze? If your going to argue for the removal of NPC's, then do it because artificial intelligence doesn't exist yet (SHUT UP ABOUT OBLIVION I PLAYED IT!). One more word about Oblivion (gimmick AI) or Eve Online (gimmick economy) and im gonna lose it, I swear.
I disagree Wow is not simple in the sense that it is easy...in fact out of all the mmorpgs it is the hardest too master.
First and foremost i would like to point out that im not trying to judge whether WoW is a 'good' or a 'bad' game. The purpose of the thread is to point out a logical inconsistency with the WoW model aka linear progression when it is adapted into the MMO platform.
The inconsistency/contraditction is as follows
-MMORPG is a business
-The MMORPG business relies on keeping the subscribers subscribed indefinitely (forever)
-Linear progression logically leads to an end point - end game
-Therefore it contradicts the business structure of the MMORPG industry
-As a resutl we have these manifestation in games such as WoW, where to resolve the 'ending' that must not come about, game developers has resorted to cheap tricks instead of tackling the problem with innovative thinking
-The foremost of these tricks is an unnecessary delaying of the inevitable end-game through grind, the second is meaningless PvP that does not have an impact on the game world, third is end-game RAIDs, and fourth is static quest system that attempts to create a lore
I'll say this again, im not writing this as some personal vendetta against WoW, but merely frustrated at this unimaginative MMORPG model glorified by WoW and reduced what couldve been a revolutionary genre into a bland mindless kim chee grindfest
Now to address the issue of how to break through the linear progression system, personally i have several main ideas.
1) You can still have linear character progression, but at least dont make the game content so linear. What i mean is in games such as WoW., the very content of the game keeps reinforcing the linearity of the the character progression. In some Korean games, its even worse, they have no game content except to kill xxx mobs, level up then repeat. To put it bluntly if you going to have a MMPRG that is level based, then at least make the leveling process more dynamic. Instead kill xxx mobs or do this quest, allow players to level through PvE, crafting, PvP, quests, collecting trophies, trading, running dungeons etc etc.
2) Substitute the means of character progression from 'killing xxx' mobs with something else The casing point is EVE. EVE is still very much structured around linear progression, but instead of kill 'xxx' to level up, the means of linear progression is real world time. You can also substitute kill 'xxx mobs' to level with means such as finish xxx quest, have pay xxx amount of money, have xxx amount of reputation.
3) This is very much a hybrid of the two ideas i have mentioned above. Since RPGs are linear by nature, why not just make the level progression purely based on real 'time'. Subscribe for 2 months you'll reach level 60 regradless of how many hours you play. Even if you play 24 hours a day you'll still only get the same amount of levels as a person who didnt play a singe hour that day. This model does two things, first it evens up a lot of the player base and eliminates the problem of power leveling and also allows casual players to compete effectively with 'no lifers'. And secondly it frees up the game content from the need to 'allow players to level'. The casing point once again is EVE. Since it has solved the problem forcing players kill xxx to level, the developers are now able to concentrate on the game content that is freed from the restaint of character progression. If EVE had a system of leveling similar to WoW it wouldnt have so much freedom for RPing and player-driven content as it does today. Everyone would be too busy grinding to max level.
4) Get rid of levels all together and put an over-emphasis on the narrative. Casing point Zelda series. The Zelda RPGs work entirely on the narrative. Zelda does not have any levels, yet the Zelda like any other classic RPG is linear. But what makes it so distinct is that to get that new item, or to unlock that new skill the character must progress through a related to narrative. Translate that into the MMORPG world, instead being able to learn a skill when you reach level 'x' make it so that if u want to learn that new skill you must solve the dungeon.
5) Sandbox. Different strokes for different folks. Multiple playing styles, individualized storylines, freedom to move between different roles etc etc. Casing point 2nd Life, Wurm and A Tale of Desert. The game mechanics focuses on players interacting with each other and working together to achieve a range of goals that either conflicts with or are in common with other groups of players. In other words, let the player themselves make the storylines, make the game world , make the conflict.
I would have to disagree here. World of Warcraft is one of the easiest games to Master. All it takes is time and the ability to follow directions.
The classes are easy to manage with only a few different talent specs actually viable.
Don't get me wrong. The game can be fun. I had fun leveling my first 3 level 60s. The fourth one was a killer and I hated every minute of it. The end game is horrible though. Instead of providing more of the same fun content that helped level you to the end, they switch it up and provide faction grinding and raiding to get further improve your character. Where are the great quests to get good gear or better skills?
What is so wrong with having some quests that give out epic rewards. See the problem with a game like this is that it focuses so much on what their current Developers enjoy and those current devs are EQ1 players who loved endgame raiding. Now Blizzard doens't have quite the crush on the end game guilds that Brad has, but Blizzard's current Developer team is pretty close.
Personally I think Blizzard lost most of their great talent to Arenanet and Flagship Studios. (as well as some other smaller start ups).
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)