Becouse wow have millions of players, i can asure you that there are more hardcore players who lose there useless lifes in wow then almost all other mmorpgs togther, sorry to ruin your dream:P
Yar, I know this was pointing it out to the surprisingly naive previous poster.
Let me clarify...WOW of course has the hardcore;) I played with them at times. It has more hardcore players just by sheer numbers. I was referring more to those who want to create a virtual life in a game, like the way people do in UO or Eve. Or those hardcore on this board who want the game to be so difficult to play, normal people wouldn't. But unlike past MMOs they don't NEED them. Blizzard also has more casual players than most MMOs combined, so creating rules and systems that only appeal to the hardcore and alienate the casual would be bad. Sorry=)
MMORPGs ... please note the RPG in there. What you have is a pen & paper Role Playing Game within an electronic medium, where many people can participate regardless of geographic location. Being an older player (34 years old), I grew up with D&D, Rolemaster, Call of Cthulhu, Amber, etc. - and even these games, which are essentially co-operative stories, had an end. That is the fundamental flaw of MMOs. The publisher wants to drag them out to keep the money comming in, but the story has to have an end. So "End Game" becomes a grindfest, loop, etc. MMOs will NEVER replace, nor have the true feel of, a real role playing game. If you're seeking the feel of a true RPG on the computer - play a solo RPG. Start with Baldur's Gate, Planescape, Fallout, Icewind Dale (the classics). Move on to Neverwinter Nights, Morrowind, SW:KOTOR, Oblivion, The Witcher (soon), etc. If you're seeking the feel of a true RPG with others - turn off the computer, gather your friends, and play a real RPG. This debate rages on and on... but a computer will never duplicate a multi-player role playing game. WoW is just Diablo with lotsa people... hack, slash, get xp, get items, get more powerful. Rinse. Repeat.
I really REALLY liked that post firstbie!
however there IS a catch - RPG's - real story driven ones that only a GOOD GM give you
CAn go on more or less without an end - as my "as the kingdom turns' - my players nicknamed it-
IF its persistent and multigenerational. My "tutor" DM - all of whose campaigns revolve around (as 'shadows')his take on Amber; btw - ran his game-verse this way; and so thus did I; but mine was a single .. campaign that spanned the charcter's children...
and their children! (as far as we got)- but my point is; no more than a game of medieval total war; does a world have to end...
new stories and new chapters.
Hell how long have the comics and soaps run the same worlds?
Just a thought.
But I'm all about the persistent world; and the dynamic setting.
Let me clarify...WOW of course has the hardcore;) I played with them at times. It has more hardcore players just by sheer numbers. I was referring more to those who want to create a virtual life in a game, like the way people do in UO or Eve. Or those hardcore on this board who want the game to be so difficult to play, normal people wouldn't. But unlike past MMOs they don't NEED them. Blizzard also has more casual players than most MMOs combined, so creating rules and systems that only appeal to the hardcore and alienate the casual would be bad. Sorry=)
Im 100% positive that there is still a market for games like darkfall!
First plenty of true hardcore pvp players who dont want the casual pvp in wow, or those other games, and plenty who want a game thats a true chellenge in every sense not only grind 24/7 for months to get your epic set from black temple(majority even never get it lol and most will skip half game:P).
There are so many casual games already on market so dont wurry you guys wont be alianated from us hardcore:P
98% is casual 2% is true hardcore where not a threat at all:P
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
Let me clarify...WOW of course has the hardcore;) I played with them at times. It has more hardcore players just by sheer numbers. I was referring more to those who want to create a virtual life in a game, like the way people do in UO or Eve. Or those hardcore on this board who want the game to be so difficult to play, normal people wouldn't. But unlike past MMOs they don't NEED them. Blizzard also has more casual players than most MMOs combined, so creating rules and systems that only appeal to the hardcore and alienate the casual would be bad. Sorry=)
Im 100% positive that there is still a market for games like darkfall!
First plenty of true hardcore pvp players who dont want the casual pvp in wow, or those other games, and plenty who want a game thats a true chellenge in every sense not only grind 24/7 for months to get your epic set from black temple(majority even never get it lol and most will skip half game:P).
There are so many casual games already on market so dont wurry you guys wont be alianated from us hardcore:P
98% is casual 2% is true hardcore where not a threat at all:P
And 100% of your statistics in this post have been made up on the spot.
Blizzard doesn't care about the hardcore no-lifers that want to lose themselves in the game for years on end.
Yep none of them in WoW are there. "years on end", hmm you might have forgotten WoW release expansions. What is the point in those expansions? retaining players.
Becouse wow have millions of players, i can asure you that there are more hardcore players who lose there useless lifes in wow then almost all other mmorpgs togther, sorry to ruin your dream:P
I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic, and yes I think you did miss the joke.
A lie? Could you be more specific? Who is lying? What are they lying about? Oh, and one thing that's off topic, DF is flawed heavily. It isn't (if it is ever going to come out) going to be the end all solution to MMOs. I'll explain it some other time, because I'm on a rather iffy schedule at the moment. Just do some critical thinking about it.
I've actually been thinking of a virtual reality simulator. I'm sure these ideas aren't new, but I think they could work.
First you would need some ideas like Star Wars Galaxies pre NGE, but you would have to take it further. Everything including houses would have to decay over time. You would have to constantly refresh everything in the world.
If you build a house it will decay over time and you will eventually have to replace it with a new house.
You have to eat and drink everyday which means competition for water and food. You can go out and kill animals for food, you can grow vegetables, or you can buy them from another player who sells them.
Basically it's survival of the fittest just like in our world before we had cities and supermarkets.
The constant need to get food/water, rebuild houses/items, and overall refresh things will stop there from being an endgame. You goal is to survive.
The skill system will be dependent on what you do like Ultima Online with the difference that your skills will deteriorate over time if you don't use them. They may never go back to zero as like riding a bike you don't forget, but they will become rusty over time.
This is the way to make a virtual world I believe.
A lie? Could you be more specific? Who is lying? What are they lying about? Oh, and one thing that's off topic, DF is flawed heavily. It isn't (if it is ever going to come out) going to be the end all solution to MMOs. I'll explain it some other time, because I'm on a rather iffy schedule at the moment. Just do some critical thinking about it.
I was reffering to someone else forget quote hehe
Ok its flawed your entile to your opinion np be happy:)
I never said its end to all solutions ever i just like it more then what was or is or come in future to market thats all:)
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
There isn't really a fundamental problem with the WoW model..
The problem is that almost all MMO's on the market right now .. cater to that market.
So people who don't like that type of game have little to no choice of what to play.
I preferreded early UO and to an extent pre-cu SWG over any other MMO I've ever played. That doesn't mean there is a problem with other MMO's. It just means that a certain market segment isn't being tapped for subscriptions.
That's the real issue.. why keep putting games into a saturated market to compete with what is out there. There is a market out there with little competition.. and a company could get a decent sized player base in it.
Originally posted by buddhabeads Intro I'm sure this is not the first time this has been mentioned.
You would be correct and as we can see in this thread we are back to the debate over what makes for a great MMORGP. I'm a traditionalist so I enjoyed some of the linear elements. I don't mind the pacing, lore, trade skills, boat rides, mediation, EC Tunnel trading and leveling.
I don't anticipate any developer catering to my particular game style, so the best I can hope for is a compelling game that's substantive.
The Old Timers Guild Laid back, not so serious, no drama. All about the fun!
www.oldtimersguild.com An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. - Jef Mallett
8 million subscribers say "NO! You're Wrong!" People play WoW =because= of the PvE content, the great majority of casual players absolutely HATE PvP / PK .
They also enjoy the phenomenon called "playing alone together", meaning they like to be able to Solo while still being in a dynamic world where interesting stuff is going on around them, ie: other players running around doing this or that and talking about it in chat., it gives the =sense= of shared social activity while still playing solo and doing your own thing.
Also in your analysis you did not cover the Micro Transaction model and Ad Based Model
The first starting point is to kill PvE content. 8 million subscribers say "NO! You're Wrong!" People play WoW =because= of the PvE content, the great majority of casual players absolutely HATE PvP / PK .
Its because the next generation of video gamers are wimps. EZ mode games like WoW have corrupted impressionable young minds. It doesn't help, at least for US players, that the government keeps making all sorts of stupid new laws to promote safety. Compare playgrounds from the 80's and 90's with the playgrounds nowadays....The US is breeding a nation of wimpy kids. The video game sector is simply a sympton of a much wider problem.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now! I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
the new "E-Z" mode of MMORPG has transformed into a lack of in-game community you really had with games like Ultima Online and Everquest , one prime example was the trading at EC tunnel or NQ in the first everquest pre-planes. Games like WoW really took away the whole Virtual World you were getting yourself into like when you played a classic MMORPG, now the entire game is layed out for you with one set of End-Game gear that everyone raids the same instance 98472893472897428943 times to get .
Intro I'm sure this is not the first time this has been mentioned. Most MMO players have probably intuitively grasped that theres is something fundamentally lacking with the WoW MMORPG model. Let me clarify what i mean by the WoW model. By the WoW model, i mean MMORPGs where character progression and development is structured around experience-point based levels, where skills/actions are tiered and where the gameplay is mostly PvE based.
The Symptoms
The most obvious problem is end-game. Any MMORPG that is structured upon a level-based character progression system has an inevitable end-game. The very nature of a linear structure is that it must have a starting point and an end point, and in an industry where preserving subscribers is everything, the inevitable end-game is a contradiction to the business model. Many game titles have attempted to solve the problem of end game by introducing new game mechanics such as 'reincarnation'', 'castle siege' or an expanded max level cap (Anarchy Online) While titles such WoW and EQ attempt to solve the problem of end-game by constantly providing new content updates (expansions) and new Raid zones. It seems that Raid has become synonymous with end-game, yet Raid is just an elaborated version of simple dungeon run played on a loop. The crux is that no matter how the problem is tackled, end-game can never be solved unless you the entire linear character progression structure is overhauled. The next fundamental problem is that any level-based linear progression system leads a strata-fication of players and a tiered skill system. Both are unhelpful to creating a communal atmosphere and instead of making MMORPGs constructive, linear progression makes MMORPGs restrictive. It makes the gameplay experience one-dimensiona. In essence the the entire gameplay experience of a WoW model based MMORPs is reduced a singular experience of killing xxx monsters, moving onto the next tiered zone and repeat. Although you can argue that raiding, pvp and questing adds variation to the gameplay mechanic, yet it does not break from the static gameplay experience that dominates and turns everything into a repetitious loop. And the third problem is that any linear character progression must rely heavily on PvE. You can't have a linear character progression based on PvP. Why not? One, issue of balance, linear progression results in a strata-fication and a high level with uber gear will always come out on top of a new player. Two, if get rid of a dependency on higher level gear/skill, and only base it on tweak then 'levels' become meaningless. Thus games where character progression are tied with PvP is in essence a ranking system. Although titles such GW and Fury allows characters can progress entirely tweak-based PvP and provide a step ladder to future MMORPGs, in their current state neither one can be called a MMORPG. In this sense, the PvP aspect of a WoW model MMORPG will always be pointless, they PvP in Wow are almost a kind of add-on to satisfy a proportion of the market without having a significant impact on the game world. Thus MMORPGs based on this model will never escape being PvE-centric, and the problem of PvE is that PvE content will eventually runs, leading into end game.
The Problem So far i have pointed out some of the symptoms of the WoW MMORPG model, below i will deconstruct this model and argue why the linear character progression structure is self-contradictory as an MMORPG platform and ways to go around it. First we should think of a MMORPG as an industry that functions in accordance with business rules of capital growth. In other words, MMORPGs have to make money. Unlike stand-alone titles where the money is made from the number of hard sales, MMORPGs make money from creating and retaining player subscriptions. Whereas the business focal point (how the money is made) of stand alone titles are factors such as playability, entertainment value, repeatabliity, excitement factor, skill factor, simulation accuracy and so on, in the case of a MMORPG, this focal point is time - to keep the player subscribed for as long as possible. In other words, the MMORPG platform as a form of business has a set of structural characteristics that enable it to accumulate capital - namely the amount of time input from its subscribers. As a consequence, this dominating factor of trying to retain the consumer for as long as possible is manifested within the game content as linear character progression. It's at this point that i think so many MMORPG game developers have failed miserably to think innovatively. Instead of looking to alter the very structure a linear progression, most game developers are merely satisfied with tweaking surface features such as races, weapons, skills, settings etc while retaining the same linear structure. As a consequence these game suffer from a deja vu effect, playing one korean game = playing all korean games. What in fact is happening here is that the game developers are letting the business structure over-dictate the game content. Rather than thinking of 'how to make a great game', the game developers are thinking first 'how to make an efficient MMORPG'. They are letting the business focus of creating subscriptions and then retaining as many as possible control the direction of the game content. Why are exp rate set at a 'xxx' rate, why do only level 100 boss drop the epic gear, why can only a level 60 Hunter use this epic Bow and use this awesome skill? Why can i only enter this dungeon at level 60, why can i only participate in castle siege at level 50? All these questions point directly to the business structure of the MMORPG and the fact that the game company wants to you to spend 'xxx' amount of time (pay 'xxx' amount of subscription/buy 'xxx' amount of cashshop items) inside the game world before certain content becomes available. To put it bluntly the linear character progression system can be almost seen as a direct manifestation of the business structure behind the MMORPG platform. The content has become the function. When you kill xxx amount of mobs to gain the next level, you're not 'playing' the game, but in fact making a direct monetary transaction to the game company. Whilst titles such as WoW, EQ, CoX does make an attempt to provide players with content that at least give a 'sense of entertainment/excitement/achievement' some Korean companies have even gone as far as to make MMORPG entirely devoid of content where the game is only a mere manifestation of MMORPG business structure.. One may argue that perhaps the linear-based character progression somehow reflects real life, but i want to point out that this is constructed system that originated from console RPGs and has been transposed onto the MMO-platform. In real life if i find a uber sword i dont need to be xxx level to use it. Yet ironically as i have pointed out in the first section, linear character progression structure faces the inevitable paradox of end-game. If you have a business platform structured around 'time' extended indefinitely , you can not have an 'end-game'. Yet no matter how game companies delay and disguise end-game, it is an inevitable outcome of level-based character progression. In a nutshell WoW will lead to its own fall. The only hope they have is to keep churning out expansions and keep pushing up the level cap indefinitely (EQ, EQII).
The Solution So how do we break the linear character progression structure that dominates the current market. Well so far there is no successful answer. However what we can do is look to titles such as Eve Gw Warhammer and Fury. Although each one of these games is still trapped within a structure of linear progression, they nontheless offer some insights. In Eve, the character progression is in sync with 'real world' time and thus gives a feeling of extending onwards indefinitely. Gw, Warhammer and Fury allows players to progress from PvP and at least breaks from PvE content which has an end point - PvP has no end-point. Yet because they have not yet completely dispensed with a linear progression structure, these games still contain 'grind' and a structural end-point (learning all the skills). The answer then seems to lie with 'sandbox' MMORPG, but 'sandbox' MMORPG are very hard to realize. Without a structure of 'levels' 'sandbox' can easily slip into a kind of MMO virtual reality akin to 2nd Life. To conclude i would offer what i see is the solution to the fundamental problem of WoW model. What so many MMORPG developers have been tied down with the business structure of the MMORPG platform and allowed that to dictate the content. What game developers should not let the business rule of retaining subscribers dicate the direction and the content of the game. They should think first of 'how to make a great' game and then think about how it work on a MMO plaftorm. What draws and keeps subscribers is interesting gameplay content and not content merely as manifestations of the business intent. The first starting point is to kill PvE content.
You sir are dumb. You never once provided a solution to the problem, Blizzard thought about how to make a great game , and did, with about 8 million subscribers. You already pointed out if you kill PvE and have only PVP balance issues arise, so that's a dumb idea too.
----------------------------- Real as Reality Television!!!
I agree with the OP. The linear progression model is apparently just the easy/cheap/safe design for developers. Theres no imagination in it, no freedom, no surprises, its just playing on rails. Seriously, this is what most single player games are and its the main reason Ive never been into most single player games. But, theyre much better at it than MMOs. They have better gameplay, theyre more immersive, more challenging, and to be honest, more entertaining. I realize that some of us must seem crazy for actually expecting something better/different in the MMO genre. Why should they make something different when its so easy to churn out another clone. H3ll, a retarded monkey could design a successful MMO.
Lets see: set the level cap at 500 and make sure that even the most hardcore will take 2 years to reach it, make a large world with multiple "petting zoo" style spawn camps, make sure that character creation and gameply are so easy that the afformentioned "retarded monkey" can play, add additional time sinks, such as gear grinds, faction grinds, money grinds, lets see, what else am I missing? Sounds pretty crappy, but I guarantee if it had a lot of polish and a big marketing campaign plenty of people would play. You wouldnt even need a good story line, but by MMO standards, you could probably slap one together fairly quickly.
What does WOW have, like 8 or 9 million subscribers? No, seriously, we only here that figure mentioned like 400 times a day on this forum alone. When is popularity ever an indicator of quality? Of course, this is a very dead horse. No one can back up the claim that "WOW is a crappy game", but you really cant make any kind of arguement for why WOW is a great MMO either. Oh, I forgot, 9 mil subs, how could we forget. Seriously, its cool that people like WOW and have fun with the game, but we dont need to see a genre full of WOW clones. But, thats exactly what we're going to see if every innovative design gets shot down just because the same old crap has been "good enough". In the long run, that wont be good for anyone, because eventually, WOW will drop off the map and its not very likely that another MMO will have the same success.
So, we'll have an entire genre worth of players that are all finally sick of playing the same MMO with a different skin, but there wont be anything else out there. It will happen. Everyone that jumped into WOW as their first MMO will have the same experience that most of us have had. They wont stick around nearly as long in their 2nd or 3rd or 4th MMOs, because they've already "been there" with their first MMO.
Ok, rant over, now back on topic. Id prefer to see what rungard mentioned, which is radial or flat progression. This way, characters dont necessarily increase in power, just in versitility. So, you dont have as large of a division of the player population based on level. IMHO, this would be better for pve grouping (since you now have WAY more potential group mates) and it would be MUCH better for pvp (since even a newer character would have a chance to compete). Plus, as rungard mentioned (I think) you 'll be able to use the ENTIRE world, since there are no low level zones or high level zones that are rendered obsolete by expansions.
It might be true that we're in the the minority here, but I dont think its as insignificant a minority as some think. Im sure there are more than enough of us to make an MMO very successful. And, Id be willing to bet that there are plenty more players that would love an MMO like this if they were introduced to one.
Here is the thing that baffles me the most. It seems that a lot of people have this weird notion that by 'killing off PvE content' you'd destroy the MMORPG market.
1) the market is fed on what its given. Casing point - WoW
2) PvP is equally if not more popular than PvE. Casing point - popularity of Halo, popularity of GW, popularity of SC
3) The market craves for innovation. Get it right and you make the market, not the other way around.
4) A lack of courage to attempt only results in the current stagnant MMORPG market, Very bad for both players and game developers.
Although there is no solution in sight, i do believe that the answer lies in virtual simularcrum that is not much dissimilar to 2nd Life.
There are 3 salient points made in this original post that make sense to me here. These are:<br><br>
1) Linear progression of characters through a level based system 2) Lack of originality 3) Typically boring core mechanic (base game play)
Lets start with the first. I agree that the leveling system so prevailent throughout the MMO genre is old, crusty, and essentially cancerous. Everyone seems to want this fluidly adaptable progression that never ends, and that makes sense because we want the game to come closer to reality in this respect.
However, the fact is, it is simply impossible to design a system that allows the players to choose from a limitless pool of unique and useful skills on a progression into infinity. The system that some were describing earlier as a "radial" progression is essentially the same as a linear progression once all of the skills or abillities or modifications have been aquired. Then the progression ends. There has to be a finite amount of stuff you can add to your character because developers have to create, test, and balance every option. This is why character progression has to reach an apex at some point.
The key is adaptability. Once players reach that apex, (or whatever point the player may choose) adaptability in the progression can provide LATERAL motion to progression, ie. class merging or swapping. This can lead to more options, but its still not infinity, and if the devs are planning to have a player base in the millions you can bet that every option will be explored.
Number two is somewhat self explanitory. It seems like every MMO out there has, not only the same linear level based progression, but also the same core mechanic, the same social organization, and the same class based system. There is a reason for this, which is: it works. Obviously. Why fiddle with something that, when done right, makes a solid investment? Its just business. Someone mentioned that, in order to make an MMO you HAVE to make money ASAP from subscribers. This being true, its only natural that theres a retentiveness in the market. Why risk some new fandangled mechanics that may or may not work? People fronting the money for these games want the best shot at that massive return, so until you see WOW's playerbase dying off from boredom, you won't see an MMO renaissance.
Finally, the most important point: The essential gameplay of most MMORPGs is BORING. Before the flames begin to rise at this notion, let me explain. Those of you that have played good ol' EQ or its wonderfully polished simulacrum WOW please recall for me a typical solo encounter. It would probably go like this:
Strolling away from the snug corner of the zone that you've turned into a mass grave, you once again venture into the wide field of MOBs meandering aimlessly about. The next target is aquired with a click or a button press, given a lovetap, and induced into following you, slack jawed, to your "abitoir in the field." What follows is another button press, the "autoattack." Numbers begin to churn above the head of the automaton. Perhaps some running is involved. Pehaps some spell casting. Then it dies. Thats it. Next.
Now it has been my experience that the only time things actually get interesting is when outside forces begin to act on this little scenerio. Say, another player comes along and brings a few MOBs in his wake, or two MOBs are pulled. Still, thats not really that fun. The reason I gave a solo example is because it has become the status quo (with the advent of WOW) to allow players to solo thier entire way through the player progression, and soloing is the most boiled down example of play.
Up until the rise of the MMO, a digital game's core mechanic was its soul. If the core mechanic was not fun, if it didn't satisfy in some way, then the game was a failure. What does this core mechanic do for me? It's not mentally challenging, like puzzle or strategy games. Its not exciting and reflexive like FPS games. Heres where it gets interesting. Those that have heard of Richard Bartle's "Online Player Psychology Test" will note there are 4 types of players. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_Test
Achievers, who prefer to gain "points," levels, equipment and other concrete measurements of succeeding in a game. Explorers, who prefer discovering areas, creating maps and learning about hidden places. Socializers, who prefer to interact with other players. Killers, who prefer to be in conflict with other players.
Not one of these catagories reflects the type of player who plays the game for the joy of killing horribly stupid ai. MMOs can only get better if they incorperate a core mechanic that people actually like (take Puzzle Pirates for example). However there is a drawback for this type of decision. By choosing to incorperate an actual GAME into the core mechanic, we have now introduced a need for skill at every level of play. Oops! There goes part of our playerbase!
I agree with a lot of what you said.. I think one of the significant mis-perceptions people have is the tendency to associate MMOs with MMORPGs.
MMOs is a technological platform, a sort of medium if you like. It's the next logical step from 'internet' as technology increasingly allows more and more users to be present at one cyber location. There is no doubt that MMO is the future, and that MMO is the next medium spawned out of the internet age.
In the MMO world, games are just one aspect. Already phenemenons such as 2nd Life have stretched the boundaries of MMOs and created a whole new wave of MMO social networking. Its not hard to see why big companies have splshed out big money on websites such as youtube, myspace, facebook since they stand at the forefront of the MMO age. Myspace is in essence is a limited 2D version of 2nd Life and if we gave youtube a 3D visualization it wouldnt be too dissimilar to a MMO game.
In this sense game developers have become too entangled in MMORPGs and overlooked the limitless possibilities of the MMO platform. I think it wont be too long before a whole new set of vocabulary is developed to cope with this new MMO medium. and thankfully for consumers/gamers the future is at least bright.
Adult entertainment have already fully utilized the possibilities of the MMO platform by making MMO dating/cyber sex programs. And it wont be too long before the game industry catches up and make MMO games that tailor for all kind of player needs.
Perhaps in the future, MMORPG would become just one of many MMO game genres and where innovations from single player RPGs become fully realized within a MMO setting.
Here is the thing that baffles me the most. It seems that a lot of people have this weird notion that by 'killing off PvE content' you'd destroy the MMORPG market. 1) the market is fed on what its given. Casing point - WoW 2) PvP is equally if not more popular than PvE. Casing point - popularity of Halo, popularity of GW, popularity of SC 3) The market craves for innovation. Get it right and you make the market, not the other way around. 4) A lack of courage to attempt only results in the current stagnant MMORPG market, Very bad for both players and game developers.
Although there is no solution in sight, i do believe that the answer lies in virtual simularcrum that is not much dissimilar to 2nd Life. Think of 2nd Life with some 'gameplay'.
This is were you are wrong, again.
1. No, this used to be the case, when there were UO and AC you had very little choice, even though today most projects go for the WoW model the competition is fierce, and it is getting tougher by the minute, today people have choices, they will chose what satisfies them the most, and most enjoy the WoW model, it is easily accessible, it is fun and it akes about an hour to learn to play and start to enjoy yourself.
Why do people watch Weekends at Bernies when there are comedy masterpieces like The big Lebowski out there?
Why do people read cheezy harlequin novels when there are authors like Keruoac, Dostojevski, Hemingway and so forth?
Why do people eat at MC Dondalds when home made food is ten times nicer, better and more enjoyable?
If you know the answer tho those questions you also know were your conclusion is so very wrong.
And forget the PvE comment, it was dumb but even if we take that out of the equation?
Sandbox is Not weekends at bernies, nor is it Joan Collins or Mc Donalds.
Not saying it is the MMO equivalent to War and Peace, or Roman Polanski. but good or bad a Sandbox game will take so much longer to "get into", learn and starting to enjoy that pretty much everyone that hasnt been around these games for ten years will have left before that point, and even most of that crowd will not suffer trough it.
Its as if IKEA would suddenly start selling furniture that not only needs you to assemble it, but also cut down the wood, chop it up and make it from scratch, yes some people would enjoy that, but most would ditch IKEA and get the furniture thats a bit more expensive and get it without the hassle, or more likely, another company would take up the previous IKEA system.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The problem is, even if we agree that ultra casuals make up the majority of the MMO market and are satisfied with the WOW model, that still doesnt explain why the entire MMO market needs to consist of only WOW and its clones. Theres a significant number of MMO vets that are NOT satisfied with the WOW model and are actually waiting for something better. I guarantee this number is big enough to make an MMO successful, well, not nearly as successful as WOW, but not even a WOW clone is gonna come near that success.
And, Im not convinced that WOW players are satisfied with the game. Sure, some are, but Ive heard plenty of others that are only there because "theres nothing else to play" or because " there guild/family/friends are still there". I had family/friends who were MMO vets that got into WOW early on. Very few of them stuck around for long. Most of them got bored at one point or another, even before reaching level cap.
The real problem with the WOW model is this: once youve played 1 MMO that follows this model, you've basically played them all.
The problem is, even if we agree that ultra casuals make up the majority of the MMO market and are satisfied with the WOW model, that still doesnt explain why the entire MMO market needs to consist of only WOW and its clones. Theres a significant number of MMO vets that are NOT satisfied with the WOW model and are actually waiting for something better. I guarantee this number is big enough to make an MMO successful, well, not nearly as successful as WOW, but not even a WOW clone is gonna come near that success. And, Im not convinced that WOW players are satisfied with the game. Sure, some are, but Ive heard plenty of others that are only there because "theres nothing else to play" or because " there guild/family/friends are still there". I had family/friends who were MMO vets that got into WOW early on. Very few of them stuck around for long. Most of them got bored at one point or another, even before reaching level cap. The real problem with the WOW model is this: once youve played 1 MMO that follows this model, you've basically played them all.
Some things to take into consideration are that the hardcore market is very very small and the first MMOs were much cheaper to make then the current ones. That means they really need the casuals to make a profit if they are going to make any kind of modern game.
Here is the thing that baffles me the most. It seems that a lot of people have this weird notion that by 'killing off PvE content' you'd destroy the MMORPG market. 1) the market is fed on what its given. Casing point - WoW 2) PvP is equally if not more popular than PvE. Casing point - popularity of Halo, popularity of GW, popularity of SC 3) The market craves for innovation. Get it right and you make the market, not the other way around. 4) A lack of courage to attempt only results in the current stagnant MMORPG market, Very bad for both players and game developers.
Although there is no solution in sight, i do believe that the answer lies in virtual simularcrum that is not much dissimilar to 2nd Life. Think of 2nd Life with some 'gameplay'.
Well, I'll have to challenge your second point....within the MMORPG genre (and you didn't list any) PVE appears to be much more popular than PVP. (and don't get me wrong, I play PVP games all the time)
In fact, just read another thread on these forums where Blizzard rep mentioned that the servers most often with lower population problems are the PVP servers..... so I think games still need to include decent PVE content.
One could argue your other points as well come to think of it. First, does the market accept what is is fed? Or do developers provide what the market demands? (who vote with their wallets btw). You seem to think that people will buy crap if all that's available is crap.... I maintain they won't buy anything at all if the game is no fun for them..and obviously the WOW model is fun for a lot of folks, just maybe not for me and some others like the OP.
While the market may crave innovation, it generally punishes it and stepping off the proven path is a huge risk for any company creating a new product, game or otherwise. While it is true that great success lies for those who successfully figure out what we'll pay for, many more failures are experienced by those who try to be creative....
As to no solution in sight...have you ever played EVE? How much different is it from this "virtual simularcrum" that you speak of? Guess we need more definition on what that really means....
I thinks some folks would argue that one major thing that holds down EVE subscription numbers is a lack of compelling PVE content and features such as player avatars (we all need our dolls to dress up it seems)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Let me clarify...WOW of course has the hardcore;) I played with them at times. It has more hardcore players just by sheer numbers. I was referring more to those who want to create a virtual life in a game, like the way people do in UO or Eve. Or those hardcore on this board who want the game to be so difficult to play, normal people wouldn't. But unlike past MMOs they don't NEED them. Blizzard also has more casual players than most MMOs combined, so creating rules and systems that only appeal to the hardcore and alienate the casual would be bad. Sorry=)
however there IS a catch - RPG's - real story driven ones that only a GOOD GM give you
CAn go on more or less without an end - as my "as the kingdom turns' - my players nicknamed it-
IF its persistent and multigenerational. My "tutor" DM - all of whose campaigns revolve around (as 'shadows')his take on Amber; btw - ran his game-verse this way; and so thus did I; but mine was a single .. campaign that spanned the charcter's children...
and their children! (as far as we got)- but my point is; no more than a game of medieval total war; does a world have to end...
new stories and new chapters.
Hell how long have the comics and soaps run the same worlds?
Just a thought.
But I'm all about the persistent world; and the dynamic setting.
First plenty of true hardcore pvp players who dont want the casual pvp in wow, or those other games, and plenty who want a game thats a true chellenge in every sense not only grind 24/7 for months to get your epic set from black temple(majority even never get it lol and most will skip half game:P).
There are so many casual games already on market so dont wurry you guys wont be alianated from us hardcore:P
98% is casual 2% is true hardcore where not a threat at all:P
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
First plenty of true hardcore pvp players who dont want the casual pvp in wow, or those other games, and plenty who want a game thats a true chellenge in every sense not only grind 24/7 for months to get your epic set from black temple(majority even never get it lol and most will skip half game:P).
There are so many casual games already on market so dont wurry you guys wont be alianated from us hardcore:P
98% is casual 2% is true hardcore where not a threat at all:P
And 100% of your statistics in this post have been made up on the spot.
Becouse wow have millions of players, i can asure you that there are more hardcore players who lose there useless lifes in wow then almost all other mmorpgs togther, sorry to ruin your dream:P
I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic, and yes I think you did miss the joke.
who cares its all a lie you know that dont yah:P
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
A lie? Could you be more specific? Who is lying? What are they lying about? Oh, and one thing that's off topic, DF is flawed heavily. It isn't (if it is ever going to come out) going to be the end all solution to MMOs. I'll explain it some other time, because I'm on a rather iffy schedule at the moment. Just do some critical thinking about it.
I've actually been thinking of a virtual reality simulator. I'm sure these ideas aren't new, but I think they could work.
First you would need some ideas like Star Wars Galaxies pre NGE, but you would have to take it further. Everything including houses would have to decay over time. You would have to constantly refresh everything in the world.
If you build a house it will decay over time and you will eventually have to replace it with a new house.
You have to eat and drink everyday which means competition for water and food. You can go out and kill animals for food, you can grow vegetables, or you can buy them from another player who sells them.
Basically it's survival of the fittest just like in our world before we had cities and supermarkets.
The constant need to get food/water, rebuild houses/items, and overall refresh things will stop there from being an endgame. You goal is to survive.
The skill system will be dependent on what you do like Ultima Online with the difference that your skills will deteriorate over time if you don't use them. They may never go back to zero as like riding a bike you don't forget, but they will become rusty over time.
This is the way to make a virtual world I believe.
A lie? Could you be more specific? Who is lying? What are they lying about? Oh, and one thing that's off topic, DF is flawed heavily. It isn't (if it is ever going to come out) going to be the end all solution to MMOs. I'll explain it some other time, because I'm on a rather iffy schedule at the moment. Just do some critical thinking about it.
I was reffering to someone else forget quote hehe
Ok its flawed your entile to your opinion np be happy:)
I never said its end to all solutions ever i just like it more then what was or is or come in future to market thats all:)
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
There isn't really a fundamental problem with the WoW model..
The problem is that almost all MMO's on the market right now .. cater to that market.
So people who don't like that type of game have little to no choice of what to play.
I preferreded early UO and to an extent pre-cu SWG over any other MMO I've ever played. That doesn't mean there is a problem with other MMO's. It just means that a certain market segment isn't being tapped for subscriptions.
That's the real issue.. why keep putting games into a saturated market to compete with what is out there. There is a market out there with little competition.. and a company could get a decent sized player base in it.
/shrug
You would be correct and as we can see in this thread we are back to the debate over what makes for a great MMORGP. I'm a traditionalist so I enjoyed some of the linear elements. I don't mind the pacing, lore, trade skills, boat rides, mediation, EC Tunnel trading and leveling.
I don't anticipate any developer catering to my particular game style, so the best I can hope for is a compelling game that's substantive.
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The first starting point is to kill PvE content.
8 million subscribers say "NO! You're Wrong!" People play WoW =because= of the PvE content, the great majority of casual players absolutely HATE PvP / PK .
They also enjoy the phenomenon called "playing alone together", meaning they like to be able to Solo while still being in a dynamic world where interesting stuff is going on around them, ie: other players running around doing this or that and talking about it in chat., it gives the =sense= of shared social activity while still playing solo and doing your own thing.
Also in your analysis you did not cover the Micro Transaction model and Ad Based Model
Its because the next generation of video gamers are wimps. EZ mode games like WoW have corrupted impressionable young minds. It doesn't help, at least for US players, that the government keeps making all sorts of stupid new laws to promote safety. Compare playgrounds from the 80's and 90's with the playgrounds nowadays....The US is breeding a nation of wimpy kids. The video game sector is simply a sympton of a much wider problem.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
the new "E-Z" mode of MMORPG has transformed into a lack of in-game community you really had with games like Ultima Online and Everquest , one prime example was the trading at EC tunnel or NQ in the first everquest pre-planes. Games like WoW really took away the whole Virtual World you were getting yourself into like when you played a classic MMORPG, now the entire game is layed out for you with one set of End-Game gear that everyone raids the same instance 98472893472897428943 times to get .
You sir are dumb. You never once provided a solution to the problem, Blizzard thought about how to make a great game , and did, with about 8 million subscribers. You already pointed out if you kill PvE and have only PVP balance issues arise, so that's a dumb idea too.
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Real as Reality Television!!!
I agree with the OP. The linear progression model is apparently just the easy/cheap/safe design for developers. Theres no imagination in it, no freedom, no surprises, its just playing on rails. Seriously, this is what most single player games are and its the main reason Ive never been into most single player games. But, theyre much better at it than MMOs. They have better gameplay, theyre more immersive, more challenging, and to be honest, more entertaining. I realize that some of us must seem crazy for actually expecting something better/different in the MMO genre. Why should they make something different when its so easy to churn out another clone. H3ll, a retarded monkey could design a successful MMO.
Lets see: set the level cap at 500 and make sure that even the most hardcore will take 2 years to reach it, make a large world with multiple "petting zoo" style spawn camps, make sure that character creation and gameply are so easy that the afformentioned "retarded monkey" can play, add additional time sinks, such as gear grinds, faction grinds, money grinds, lets see, what else am I missing? Sounds pretty crappy, but I guarantee if it had a lot of polish and a big marketing campaign plenty of people would play. You wouldnt even need a good story line, but by MMO standards, you could probably slap one together fairly quickly.
What does WOW have, like 8 or 9 million subscribers? No, seriously, we only here that figure mentioned like 400 times a day on this forum alone. When is popularity ever an indicator of quality? Of course, this is a very dead horse. No one can back up the claim that "WOW is a crappy game", but you really cant make any kind of arguement for why WOW is a great MMO either. Oh, I forgot, 9 mil subs, how could we forget. Seriously, its cool that people like WOW and have fun with the game, but we dont need to see a genre full of WOW clones. But, thats exactly what we're going to see if every innovative design gets shot down just because the same old crap has been "good enough". In the long run, that wont be good for anyone, because eventually, WOW will drop off the map and its not very likely that another MMO will have the same success.
So, we'll have an entire genre worth of players that are all finally sick of playing the same MMO with a different skin, but there wont be anything else out there. It will happen. Everyone that jumped into WOW as their first MMO will have the same experience that most of us have had. They wont stick around nearly as long in their 2nd or 3rd or 4th MMOs, because they've already "been there" with their first MMO.
It might be true that we're in the the minority here, but I dont think its as insignificant a minority as some think. Im sure there are more than enough of us to make an MMO very successful. And, Id be willing to bet that there are plenty more players that would love an MMO like this if they were introduced to one.
And in doing so kill 90% of your market. Enjoy.
Here is the thing that baffles me the most. It seems that a lot of people have this weird notion that by 'killing off PvE content' you'd destroy the MMORPG market.
1) the market is fed on what its given. Casing point - WoW
2) PvP is equally if not more popular than PvE. Casing point - popularity of Halo, popularity of GW, popularity of SC
3) The market craves for innovation. Get it right and you make the market, not the other way around.
4) A lack of courage to attempt only results in the current stagnant MMORPG market, Very bad for both players and game developers.
Although there is no solution in sight, i do believe that the answer lies in virtual simularcrum that is not much dissimilar to 2nd Life.
Think of 2nd Life with some 'gameplay'.
There are 3 salient points made in this original post that make sense to me here. These are:<br><br>
1) Linear progression of characters through a level based system
2) Lack of originality
3) Typically boring core mechanic (base game play)
Lets start with the first. I agree that the leveling system so prevailent throughout the MMO genre is old, crusty, and essentially cancerous. Everyone seems to want this fluidly adaptable progression that never ends, and that makes sense because we want the game to come closer to reality in this respect.
However, the fact is, it is simply impossible to design a system that allows the players to choose from a limitless pool of unique and useful skills on a progression into infinity. The system that some were describing earlier as a "radial" progression is essentially the same as a linear progression once all of the skills or abillities or modifications have been aquired. Then the progression ends. There has to be a finite amount of stuff you can add to your character because developers have to create, test, and balance every option. This is why character progression has to reach an apex at some point.
The key is adaptability. Once players reach that apex, (or whatever point the player may choose) adaptability in the progression can provide LATERAL motion to progression, ie. class merging or swapping. This can lead to more options, but its still not infinity, and if the devs are planning to have a player base in the millions you can bet that every option will be explored.
Number two is somewhat self explanitory. It seems like every MMO out there has, not only the same linear level based progression, but also the same core mechanic, the same social organization, and the same class based system. There is a reason for this, which is: it works. Obviously. Why fiddle with something that, when done right, makes a solid investment? Its just business. Someone mentioned that, in order to make an MMO you HAVE to make money ASAP from subscribers. This being true, its only natural that theres a retentiveness in the market. Why risk some new fandangled mechanics that may or may not work? People fronting the money for these games want the best shot at that massive return, so until you see WOW's playerbase dying off from boredom, you won't see an MMO renaissance.
Finally, the most important point: The essential gameplay of most MMORPGs is BORING. Before the flames begin to rise at this notion, let me explain. Those of you that have played good ol' EQ or its wonderfully polished simulacrum WOW please recall for me a typical solo encounter. It would probably go like this:
Strolling away from the snug corner of the zone that you've turned into a mass grave, you once again venture into the wide field of MOBs meandering aimlessly about. The next target is aquired with a click or a button press, given a lovetap, and induced into following you, slack jawed, to your "abitoir in the field." What follows is another button press, the "autoattack." Numbers begin to churn above the head of the automaton. Perhaps some running is involved. Pehaps some spell casting. Then it dies. Thats it. Next.
Now it has been my experience that the only time things actually get interesting is when outside forces begin to act on this little scenerio. Say, another player comes along and brings a few MOBs in his wake, or two MOBs are pulled. Still, thats not really that fun. The reason I gave a solo example is because it has become the status quo (with the advent of WOW) to allow players to solo thier entire way through the player progression, and soloing is the most boiled down example of play.
Up until the rise of the MMO, a digital game's core mechanic was its soul. If the core mechanic was not fun, if it didn't satisfy in some way, then the game was a failure. What does this core mechanic do for me? It's not mentally challenging, like puzzle or strategy games. Its not exciting and reflexive like FPS games. Heres where it gets interesting. Those that have heard of Richard Bartle's "Online Player Psychology Test" will note there are 4 types of players. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_Test
Achievers, who prefer to gain "points," levels, equipment and other concrete measurements of succeeding in a game.
Explorers, who prefer discovering areas, creating maps and learning about hidden places.
Socializers, who prefer to interact with other players.
Killers, who prefer to be in conflict with other players.
Not one of these catagories reflects the type of player who plays the game for the joy of killing horribly stupid ai. MMOs can only get better if they incorperate a core mechanic that people actually like (take Puzzle Pirates for example). However there is a drawback for this type of decision. By choosing to incorperate an actual GAME into the core mechanic, we have now introduced a need for skill at every level of play. Oops! There goes part of our playerbase!
-Shmak
I agree with a lot of what you said.. I think one of the significant mis-perceptions people have is the tendency to associate MMOs with MMORPGs.
MMOs is a technological platform, a sort of medium if you like. It's the next logical step from 'internet' as technology increasingly allows more and more users to be present at one cyber location. There is no doubt that MMO is the future, and that MMO is the next medium spawned out of the internet age.
In the MMO world, games are just one aspect. Already phenemenons such as 2nd Life have stretched the boundaries of MMOs and created a whole new wave of MMO social networking. Its not hard to see why big companies have splshed out big money on websites such as youtube, myspace, facebook since they stand at the forefront of the MMO age. Myspace is in essence is a limited 2D version of 2nd Life and if we gave youtube a 3D visualization it wouldnt be too dissimilar to a MMO game.
In this sense game developers have become too entangled in MMORPGs and overlooked the limitless possibilities of the MMO platform. I think it wont be too long before a whole new set of vocabulary is developed to cope with this new MMO medium. and thankfully for consumers/gamers the future is at least bright.
Adult entertainment have already fully utilized the possibilities of the MMO platform by making MMO dating/cyber sex programs. And it wont be too long before the game industry catches up and make MMO games that tailor for all kind of player needs.
Perhaps in the future, MMORPG would become just one of many MMO game genres and where innovations from single player RPGs become fully realized within a MMO setting.
1. No, this used to be the case, when there were UO and AC you had very little choice, even though today most projects go for the WoW model the competition is fierce, and it is getting tougher by the minute, today people have choices, they will chose what satisfies them the most, and most enjoy the WoW model, it is easily accessible, it is fun and it akes about an hour to learn to play and start to enjoy yourself.
Why do people watch Weekends at Bernies when there are comedy masterpieces like The big Lebowski out there?
Why do people read cheezy harlequin novels when there are authors like Keruoac, Dostojevski, Hemingway and so forth?
Why do people eat at MC Dondalds when home made food is ten times nicer, better and more enjoyable?
If you know the answer tho those questions you also know were your conclusion is so very wrong.
And forget the PvE comment, it was dumb but even if we take that out of the equation?
Sandbox is Not weekends at bernies, nor is it Joan Collins or Mc Donalds.
Not saying it is the MMO equivalent to War and Peace, or Roman Polanski. but good or bad a Sandbox game will take so much longer to "get into", learn and starting to enjoy that pretty much everyone that hasnt been around these games for ten years will have left before that point, and even most of that crowd will not suffer trough it.
Its as if IKEA would suddenly start selling furniture that not only needs you to assemble it, but also cut down the wood, chop it up and make it from scratch, yes some people would enjoy that, but most would ditch IKEA and get the furniture thats a bit more expensive and get it without the hassle, or more likely, another company would take up the previous IKEA system.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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The problem is, even if we agree that ultra casuals make up the majority of the MMO market and are satisfied with the WOW model, that still doesnt explain why the entire MMO market needs to consist of only WOW and its clones. Theres a significant number of MMO vets that are NOT satisfied with the WOW model and are actually waiting for something better. I guarantee this number is big enough to make an MMO successful, well, not nearly as successful as WOW, but not even a WOW clone is gonna come near that success.
And, Im not convinced that WOW players are satisfied with the game. Sure, some are, but Ive heard plenty of others that are only there because "theres nothing else to play" or because " there guild/family/friends are still there". I had family/friends who were MMO vets that got into WOW early on. Very few of them stuck around for long. Most of them got bored at one point or another, even before reaching level cap.
The real problem with the WOW model is this: once youve played 1 MMO that follows this model, you've basically played them all.
Some things to take into consideration are that the hardcore market is very very small and the first MMOs were much cheaper to make then the current ones. That means they really need the casuals to make a profit if they are going to make any kind of modern game.
Well, I'll have to challenge your second point....within the MMORPG genre (and you didn't list any) PVE appears to be much more popular than PVP. (and don't get me wrong, I play PVP games all the time)
In fact, just read another thread on these forums where Blizzard rep mentioned that the servers most often with lower population problems are the PVP servers..... so I think games still need to include decent PVE content.
One could argue your other points as well come to think of it. First, does the market accept what is is fed? Or do developers provide what the market demands? (who vote with their wallets btw). You seem to think that people will buy crap if all that's available is crap.... I maintain they won't buy anything at all if the game is no fun for them..and obviously the WOW model is fun for a lot of folks, just maybe not for me and some others like the OP.
While the market may crave innovation, it generally punishes it and stepping off the proven path is a huge risk for any company creating a new product, game or otherwise. While it is true that great success lies for those who successfully figure out what we'll pay for, many more failures are experienced by those who try to be creative....
As to no solution in sight...have you ever played EVE? How much different is it from this "virtual simularcrum" that you speak of? Guess we need more definition on what that really means....
I thinks some folks would argue that one major thing that holds down EVE subscription numbers is a lack of compelling PVE content and features such as player avatars (we all need our dolls to dress up it seems)
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon