First of all I can not understand why people freak out over an obvious and straight forward business transaction. Secondly just by posting baseless comments about SOE taking over Flying Labs or any other company with no 'real' evidence is downright stupid.
What sums it up for me is how people slam SOE for messing up Starwars etc. However when they make major fixes, tweaks, bug correction and additional content to other games like Vanguard everyone keeps quiet. I like to see a post labelled 'SOE well done on fixing Vanguard'.
Let them distribute PotBS and shut the hell up about them ruining the game. I know that if PotBS has some unpolished elements (which it will) there will be muliple posts from trolls blaming SOE.
SOE is a company that makes mistakes and also runs a successful business. They are not out to FU every mmo in the marketplace.
Sick of these type of posts and NO I don't work for PotBS or SOE.
I've heard the "SOE is only publishing the game" argument before. I heard it direct from Brad McQuaid and his staff with respect to Vanguard. Brad and his staff stuck to that line for months after their distribution deal was arranged. Then they admitted that a few SOE programmers had been invited to help out, but that they had no control over content or mechanics. Then as launch approached, the truth of the total sale emerged.
Now, admittedly, PotBS is in *much* better shape than Vanguard was, but just because they currently claim that SOE will only be distributing the game, doesn't mean that relationship won't change after launch.
SOE has had two strikes (SWG, Vanguard) with me, and a foul ball (EQ2, which floundered but looks healthy now). I'm not sure I want to give them a chance for another strike.
And no, I don't believe SOE intends to "FU" every MMO they can get their hands on. I do, however, think they have their own idea of what an MMO has to be. When those ideas don't line up with the original design, they hack and slash bits until it kinda fits. Usually, that means whatever carefully balanced systems were in place tend to fall apart.
Sorry guys, I've heard the "SOE is only publishing the game" argument before. I heard it direct from Brad McQuaid and his staff with respect to Vanguard. Brad and his staff stuck to that line for months after their distribution deal was arranged. Then they admitted that a few SOE programmers had been invited to help out, but that they had no control over content or mechanics. Then as launch approached, the truth of the total sale emerged. Now, admittedly, PotBS is in *much* better shape than Vanguard was, but just because they currently claim that SOE will only be distributing the game, doesn't mean that relationship won't change after launch. SOE has had two strikes (SWG, Vanguard) with me, and a foul ball (EQ2, which floundered but looks healthy now). I'm not sure I want to give them a chance for another strike. And no, I don't believe SOE intends to "FU" every MMO they can get their hands on. I do, however, think they have their own idea of what an MMO has to be. When those ideas don't line up with the original design, they hack and slash bits until it kinda fits. Usually, that means whatever carefully balanced systems were in place tend to fall apart.
I'm an FLS dev. Like RIck, I guess I just have to get this off my chest.
Your point is very clear. Good.
The reason I get so unhappy with this viewpoint is that it doesn't say "even though FLS has constantly denied this" at the end.
I have no trouble with you looking at history and and deciding that MMO's that Sony gets involved with get screwed up. I'd say you are looking selectively, and I come to different conclusions, but your position makes sense to me.
I have more of a problem with you saying that historical evidence bears here, since this is FLS's first relationship with Sony, and it is clearly and obviously a different contractual relationship than the ones you mention.
But when you assume that Sony has a vision for MMO's and that vision will effect Pirates in a significant way, you are flat wrong. Sony has had no impact on the game itself. Our designers are designing our game, with no input from Sony. I, a coder, have a much bigger impact on the game design than anybody from Sony. Nor does Sony have any legal say in the game -- they are our publishers -- they don't own a piece of the game in any sense at all.
I'm not knocking Sony's game design here, either. I have no idea what they might be like. I'm saying *we* are doing the game. Period.
So if you are going to assume that Sony *is* going to have an impact on the game design of Pirates, you really need to acknowledge that *everybody* from FLS has denied this. And own up to the fact that you don't trust our statements.
So if you are going to assume that Sony *is* going to have an impact on the game design of Pirates, you really need to acknowledge that *everybody* from FLS has denied this. And own up to the fact that you don't trust our statements.
I hope you and Rick are correct, I really honestly do. Even if I didn't care for the game (which I do), I really think PotBS is a breath of fresh air in the MMO market, which has become terribly slanted towards the high fantasy genre (City of Heroes and EVE-Online being exceptions). Your success can be nothing but good for the whole market.
I don't doubt your word. I do believe that, as far as you know, you will retain full control over the development of your project. I would simply point out that the developers at Sigil probably felt the same way. When it comes down to it, the executives that control the purse strings are the ones who ultimately steer the development. It is their word I don't trust.
Again, please prove me wrong. Not only would the fans of PotBS be happy, but so would the MMO community at large, so would SOE (as it would help their somewhat tarnished reputation), and so would I.
Isnt SOE the publisher? i dont know how all that stuff works but it seems like SOE just buys everything they publish and keeps on some of the devlopers. Or SOE fired all the devlopers and lets some new game devlopers work with the game untill they screw it up beyond saving.
Sigh. I *am* an executive at FLS. I guess I just blew my cred, huh? I just prefer to write code than to do management and negotiations. On the other hand, it means I *do* know what I'm talking about when it come to the financial state of the company and the contracts we've entered in to. There are no agreements for Sony to buy us. Nor have they ever offered. Nor do we need them. On the other-other hand if they offer us an obscene amount of money like Bioware/Pandemic got from EA, I'm not saying we won't listen! We're not cheap, but we're not stupid either.
They have negotiated in good faith, provided contracts that matched their letters of intent, kept their side of the deal, and been very helpful with localization for Europe and Russia.
RickSaada,
It takes a lot to confront those who do not see things like you do, so kudos to you for that.
However, I am going to take your own words to mean that SOE does have devs working on your code to some extent. Maybe you have some excuse for what you said, but I will stay with caution from now on concerning claims of no SOE employees are working on the game.
MikeByron.
Trust is earned, not something to be expected. Asking people to ignore the obvious and glaring problems in SOE's past just based on your words is to much to ask for. You all may be stand up guys, but everything you are saying was said before by others. Some of which have put out a successful MMO. Not to mention a slew of other game designers not affiliated with SOE saying similar promises and suffering similar set backs.
Words are cheap in the Genre right now. Sad to say they have been seriously devalued by those who came before and yes many of them had dealings with SOE or worked at SOE.
This is one game I'm really looking forward to, yes the SoE announcement made me cringe.
But PotBS is doing something new, they are not making or trying to make a WoW clone. (yes I like WoW, I play WoW, I just dont want to pay another subscriptions to play they same game twice. *cough* LotRo*cough*)
I just really hope the trading/crafting aspect (read as non-combat) part of the game has depth, is interesting, and most important, has meaning.
I think you guys have an easy winner, and in a flooded market its one of only two that I'm looking forward too playing.
And to all the naysayers, look at his pic. When you have a Dev as a real life pirate you just cant go wrong.
"I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."
They have negotiated in good faith, provided contracts that matched their letters of intent, kept their side of the deal, and been very helpful with localization for Europe and Russia.
RickSaada,
It takes a lot to confront those who do not see things like you do, so kudos to you for that.
However, I am going to take your own words to mean that SOE does have devs working on your code to some extent. Maybe you have some excuse for what you said, but I will stay with caution from now on concerning claims of no SOE employees are working on the game.
MikeByron.
Trust is earned, not something to be expected. Asking people to ignore the obvious and glaring problems in SOE's past just based on your words is to much to ask for. You all may be stand up guys, but everything you are saying was said before by others. Some of which have put out a successful MMO. Not to mention a slew of other game designers not affiliated with SOE saying similar promises and suffering similar set backs.
Words are cheap in the Genre right now. Sad to say they have been seriously devalued by those who came before and yes many of them had dealings with SOE or worked at SOE.
I don't expect trust. I agree with you. Trust should be earned. I am not saying you should trust us without any evidence. I am saying that if you make public statements about people or companies, I would hope you acknowledge that you are flatly contradicting what they have said. My post was meant to express frustration because I (and Rick) do know what is going on at FLS. We have no way to prove it to you.
Read our boards if you want evidence about whether or not you can trust what we have to say. www.burningsea.com.
Sony does not have any coders working on our game. I am the coder that is integrating a lot of the Sony technology we need into the game. We integrated authentication technology because we need it for billing. We are using their localization technology, and some other small pieces. All this goes into a number of their games (I don't know which ones -- we don't work for Sony). Saying Sony is working on our game is like saying Microsoft is working on our game because we use their compilers and database. We use technology, and we get help from their support people. Sony is not coding our game.
Sony *is* doing our translations. Since we have total control of the gameplay in English, there's no significant way they impact the game there, either.
My point was that Sony is not doing the game. The gameplay. The design. We are doing it. Sony has never expressed any interest in affecting the design of the game, and they have no contractual rights to do it if they did want to.
Sorry guys, I've heard the "SOE is only publishing the game" argument before. I heard it direct from Brad McQuaid and his staff with respect to Vanguard. Brad and his staff stuck to that line for months after their distribution deal was arranged. Then they admitted that a few SOE programmers had been invited to help out, but that they had no control over content or mechanics. Then as launch approached, the truth of the total sale emerged. Now, admittedly, PotBS is in *much* better shape than Vanguard was, but just because they currently claim that SOE will only be distributing the game, doesn't mean that relationship won't change after launch. SOE has had two strikes (SWG, Vanguard) with me, and a foul ball (EQ2, which floundered but looks healthy now). I'm not sure I want to give them a chance for another strike. And no, I don't believe SOE intends to "FU" every MMO they can get their hands on. I do, however, think they have their own idea of what an MMO has to be. When those ideas don't line up with the original design, they hack and slash bits until it kinda fits. Usually, that means whatever carefully balanced systems were in place tend to fall apart.
This is what I don't want to see. For me, I'm excited to play the damn game like anybody else but I don't want to invest my time playing it then it suddenly died down, meaning subscription begin to dwindle because of stupid mistakes like what had been done with SWG and Vanguard. We may be just a minority of serious gamer in here who thinks that "game continuance" is important but time invested in MMO is part of the fun part. SOE has a track record of really stinking up good game and I don't want them to ruin another one.
__________________ Playing: EVE & Runescape @ work : P
Im a pre patch jedi, I quit swg after returning twice and finaly I admit the game has changed too much and I am finished with swg for good.
I recently bought a new tv and I rejected the sony one (with some relish) so "up yours" sony thats 1000 quid of mine you wont see. ofc the one I choose was better and cheaper, i was spoiled for choice.
but...
Im not punching myself in the face every time soe is mentioned, if soe make swg2 lol (im so dumb) yeah ill prob play it if I think ill like it, I had a ton of fun in swg mixing with hundreds of people in coro cantena and unlocking my jedi on dancer counts as some of the best moments in my online gaming history.
every game has a TOS you must click each time you play, yeah we all never thought parts like "we reserve the right to change any part of the game at any time" would really really come to happen but it did... mabye it will happen again, while we wait for it to happen again I will continue to be entertained in what ever game I like.
oh.. and imho that prick Brad did more damage to the gaming industry than soe and evilea ever did. he owes me 50 quid for zero fun/entertainment.
Brad Mcquaid also sword SOE would never have an influence on Vanguard's design and operation. Guess intelligent people should totally disregard that fact huh?
Nah. Intelligent people realize that Brad isn't involved in this arrangement in any way, shape, or form.
What 'proof' could they possibly provide that would satisfy the people that claim Sony involvement? People ask for some abstract concept of 'proof' and when they don't see something (without even knowing what that something would be) they think that proves that sony is involved.
The only evidence out there is that it happened 'in other games with other developers'. That isn't evidence... It can suggest it might happen as a possibility but it is far from a sure thing. Just because there are maniacs out there that use knives to stab people doesn't mean mine are used for anything but kitchen utensiles (and maybe last-resort cannon ammo).
SoE is a knife. FLS can either use the knife to cut steak, or cut people. So far they have shown they are only using SoE to handle some of the logistics so they can focus entirely on the game design and programming. FLS is cooking the steak and using SoE to cut it for your eating enjoyment.
Personally, I plan on ordering that steak until the waiters run screaming from the kitchen yelling that the cook's been stabbed.
I hope you enjoyed my little analogy.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence. Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
What 'proof' could they possibly provide that would satisfy the people that claim Sony involvement? People ask for some abstract concept of 'proof' and when they don't see something (without even knowing what that something would be) they think that proves that sony is involved. The only evidence out there is that it happened 'in other games with other developers'. That isn't evidence... It can suggest it might happen as a possibility but it is far from a sure thing. Just because there are maniacs out there that use knives to stab people doesn't mean mine are used for anything but kitchen utensiles (and maybe last-resort cannon ammo). SoE is a knife. FLS can either use the knife to cut steak, or cut people. So far they have shown they are only using SoE to handle some of the logistics so they can focus entirely on the game design and programming. FLS is cooking the steak and using SoE to cut it for your eating enjoyment. Personally, I plan on ordering that steak until the waiters run screaming from the kitchen yelling that the cook's been stabbed. I hope you enjoyed my little analogy.
Lovely way of putting it! And I fully agree... Just because it CAN happen, doesn't mean it WILL. And in honesty, FLS cares for this game and will not want to see it ruined by SOE.. So I doubt they'll let them.
Funny how poeple use Brad Mcquaid as an exemple in this. While this was a whole differend case, Vanguard failed. It did not has a big amount of subscribers and no way that Sigil could develop the game and keep the server running for longer as I am sure they where losing money big time. Infact Mcquaid most likely did not had an choose then to sell his company to Sony. He most likely invest LOADS of money in Sigil and Vanguard. If he would not have taken the offer from Sony he would most likely end up being extreamly poor after a couple of month. He would have to disband Sigil, file for bankruptcy, have to sell his house/car, etc.
If PotBS would fail then yes big change FLS CEO would sell FLS and the rights to PotBS to Sony if they get an offer. (sure enough they do it if the game is an success and they get a good amount of money for it). However PotBS seems more polished to me and most likely will get an good amount of subscribers keeping FLS way clear from bankruptcy. Beside that FLS also released an game before starting with PoTBS with was an decent game (Rails across America), with I am sure helps them securing there finance.
However yes there is an change that FLS will be taken over by SoE. If the game runs well it might be posible that SoE is willing to pay a lot of money for FLS or the rights to PotBS. However the change EA buying FLS is as big.
Brad Mcquaid also sword SOE would never have an influence on Vanguard's design and operation. Guess intelligent people should totally disregard that fact huh?
Ye one would think that the name "RedwoodSap" would mean that it has an insightful and inteeligent poster behind it. But uhm nope it is not intelligent to use the b/w thinking. Which I, ironically eneought, got the link from within these forums.
I think this argumentation would be avoided by just intelligent people.
So to answer the question you gave. Yes intelligent people actually do disregard that fact, totally.
-------------------------------
A common form of the false dilemma in public discourse is black and white thinking. As an example, consider the following three patterns of reasoning, the first valid, the others invalid.
Example 1: Three is an odd number. Only even numbers are divisible by two. Therefore three is not divisible by two. (valid)
Example 2: John says that three is an odd number. John is a liar. Therefore three is not an odd number. (invalid)
Example 3: John says that two is an odd number. John is a liar. Therefore two is not an odd number. (invalid)
The first example is valid because natural numbers are either even or odd. The two classes are exhaustive and mutually exclusive. The second example is invalid because the categories "liar" and "truth teller" are neither exhaustive nor mutually exclusive. Anyone may tell some lies and some truths. The third example is invalid reasoning for the same reason as the second (even though its conclusion is true).
I am a card carrying member of the SOE haters' club and if Smed was burning alive I would refuse to pee on him.
That being said, he saved Vanguard from the virtual trash bin (Agricola stabs himself in leg with fork). None of the VG debacle was the fault of SOE (stabs again) and Brad sold VG and liquidated Sigil. Smed bought VG and gave half of those staff jobs (Agricola violently headbutts a brick wall after pointing out Smeds acts of benevolence and good business).
As for PotBS it was a problem for me, it is a new fresh game with great ideas but they are involved with the darkside (SOE). I have boycotted Sony products since the CU/R/B debacle of SWG however this was a game I wanted to try but it had the dreaded mark of evil upon it (SOE).
Well after seeing that FLS do communicate with potential customers and hopefully this will continue after release they started earning virtual brownie points. After a while I decided to forget SOE and judge this game soley upon merit. I'll pre-order this game and if I find I don't like it fine, if I do like it then it was worth the risk and to be frank I've taken much bigger risks in my life!
So I say judge this on merit and let the SOE hate train take a back seat, yeah I know it isn't easy but I suggest going to the FLS website and see what they say. SOE is an issue and a big one at that but ask yourself "is it worth the risk? Have I taken bigger risks than $50 before?". If the answer is no then just sit back and if it all goes pear shaped after released you can spam Rick and all us sad fanbois with "I told you so!" posts. If yes then start looking at the FLS website and start asking all those questions you were afraid to ask before!
BTW when Rick Saada does push ups he doesn't...he pushes the world down FACT!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
I admire your courage Rick. And to you agricola1, hats off.
The SWG issue is old, it took place years ago, let it go (not that I do not miss old SWG). We got to live the remaining years of our lives, and we will run into SoE one way or another. Trying not to see it does not change the fact that SoE is a player in this market (good or bad player, you label it, I do not care for adjectives).
Rick, please make us a good game. If the game is good, I will be grabbing a taxi and racing to the nearest store. This I promised. I do not care if SoE distributes it, or Mr Panda does it. I do not care if Rick sells it to SoE later for 1000M US. If only I find a game I enjoy, that will do. That is all that matters.
Blackvenom's thread is locked or I'd reply there, but I want to be very clear about this. SONY DOES NOT OWN POTBS. SONY DOES NOT OWN FLS. There. Now I feel better. Sorry, back to the polite Rick. The Sony station pass is not limited to games owned by Sony. Any game that has billing done by Sony is eligible to be a part of it, if the developers so choose. When we signed a distribution deal with Sony Platform Publishing to have them to put boxes on shelves for us and handle our billing, we agreed to be part of the station pass. Perpetual Entertainment, for Gods & Heroes, chose to do boxes but not billing or station pass. It's an option but not required. Since they are doing our billing, we use the station launcher and get listed on their site, which is fine by us. They're doing marketing and publicity for us, and it would be weird if we *weren't* on their site. But this doesn't mean they've bought us. You may now remove your tinfoil hats
that's nice. let's just hope you don't fall under the SOE curse. SOE didn't own gods & heroes either.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I am a card carrying member of the SOE haters' club and if Smed was burning alive I would refuse to pee on him. That being said, he saved Vanguard from the virtual trash bin (Agricola stabs himself in leg with fork). None of the VG debacle was the fault of SOE (stabs again) and Brad sold VG and liquidated Sigil. Smed bought VG and gave half of those staff jobs (Agricola violently headbutts a brick wall after pointing out Smeds acts of benevolence and good business).
microsoft dropped vg because the MS overseeing folk didn't like what they saw. did SOE not install ANY overseeing types? did SOE not give sigil any terms such as "release by X date" when sigil asked to push the release out?
you can blame a lot on sigil and it's asshat of a leader. but SOE is the corporation that allowed vanguard to release and blessed it releasing in the condition it did.
spin it away from soe any way you so desire; but they are directly responsible for vanguard being released in the condition it was released.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
BTW when Rick Saada does push ups he doesn't...he pushes the world down FACT!
Lets not go too far here. I'm *not* Chuck Norris, and I don't need him showing up at my door to break me into little tiny pieces for being a pretender!
I am a card carrying member of the SOE haters' club and if Smed was burning alive I would refuse to pee on him. That being said, he saved Vanguard from the virtual trash bin (Agricola stabs himself in leg with fork). None of the VG debacle was the fault of SOE (stabs again) and Brad sold VG and liquidated Sigil. Smed bought VG and gave half of those staff jobs (Agricola violently headbutts a brick wall after pointing out Smeds acts of benevolence and good business). As for PotBS it was a problem for me, it is a new fresh game with great ideas but they are involved with the darkside (SOE). I have boycotted Sony products since the CU/R/B debacle of SWG however this was a game I wanted to try but it had the dreaded mark of evil upon it (SOE). Well after seeing that FLS do communicate with potential customers and hopefully this will continue after release they started earning virtual brownie points. After a while I decided to forget SOE and judge this game soley upon merit. I'll pre-order this game and if I find I don't like it fine, if I do like it then it was worth the risk and to be frank I've taken much bigger risks in my life! So I say judge this on merit and let the SOE hate train take a back seat, yeah I know it isn't easy but I suggest going to the FLS website and see what they say. SOE is an issue and a big one at that but ask yourself "is it worth the risk? Have I taken bigger risks than $50 before?". If the answer is no then just sit back and if it all goes pear shaped after released you can spam Rick and all us sad fanbois with "I told you so!" posts. If yes then start looking at the FLS website and start asking all those questions you were afraid to ask before! BTW when Rick Saada does push ups he doesn't...he pushes the world down FACT!
Comments
First of all I can not understand why people freak out over an obvious and straight forward business transaction. Secondly just by posting baseless comments about SOE taking over Flying Labs or any other company with no 'real' evidence is downright stupid.
What sums it up for me is how people slam SOE for messing up Starwars etc. However when they make major fixes, tweaks, bug correction and additional content to other games like Vanguard everyone keeps quiet. I like to see a post labelled 'SOE well done on fixing Vanguard'.
Let them distribute PotBS and shut the hell up about them ruining the game. I know that if PotBS has some unpolished elements (which it will) there will be muliple posts from trolls blaming SOE.
SOE is a company that makes mistakes and also runs a successful business. They are not out to FU every mmo in the marketplace.
Sick of these type of posts and NO I don't work for PotBS or SOE.
Sorry guys,
I've heard the "SOE is only publishing the game" argument before. I heard it direct from Brad McQuaid and his staff with respect to Vanguard. Brad and his staff stuck to that line for months after their distribution deal was arranged. Then they admitted that a few SOE programmers had been invited to help out, but that they had no control over content or mechanics. Then as launch approached, the truth of the total sale emerged.
Now, admittedly, PotBS is in *much* better shape than Vanguard was, but just because they currently claim that SOE will only be distributing the game, doesn't mean that relationship won't change after launch.
SOE has had two strikes (SWG, Vanguard) with me, and a foul ball (EQ2, which floundered but looks healthy now). I'm not sure I want to give them a chance for another strike.
And no, I don't believe SOE intends to "FU" every MMO they can get their hands on. I do, however, think they have their own idea of what an MMO has to be. When those ideas don't line up with the original design, they hack and slash bits until it kinda fits. Usually, that means whatever carefully balanced systems were in place tend to fall apart.
Your point is very clear. Good.
The reason I get so unhappy with this viewpoint is that it doesn't say "even though FLS has constantly denied this" at the end.
I have no trouble with you looking at history and and deciding that MMO's that Sony gets involved with get screwed up. I'd say you are looking selectively, and I come to different conclusions, but your position makes sense to me.
I have more of a problem with you saying that historical evidence bears here, since this is FLS's first relationship with Sony, and it is clearly and obviously a different contractual relationship than the ones you mention.
But when you assume that Sony has a vision for MMO's and that vision will effect Pirates in a significant way, you are flat wrong. Sony has had no impact on the game itself. Our designers are designing our game, with no input from Sony. I, a coder, have a much bigger impact on the game design than anybody from Sony. Nor does Sony have any legal say in the game -- they are our publishers -- they don't own a piece of the game in any sense at all.
I'm not knocking Sony's game design here, either. I have no idea what they might be like. I'm saying *we* are doing the game. Period.
So if you are going to assume that Sony *is* going to have an impact on the game design of Pirates, you really need to acknowledge that *everybody* from FLS has denied this. And own up to the fact that you don't trust our statements.
I hope you and Rick are correct, I really honestly do. Even if I didn't care for the game (which I do), I really think PotBS is a breath of fresh air in the MMO market, which has become terribly slanted towards the high fantasy genre (City of Heroes and EVE-Online being exceptions). Your success can be nothing but good for the whole market.
I don't doubt your word. I do believe that, as far as you know, you will retain full control over the development of your project. I would simply point out that the developers at Sigil probably felt the same way. When it comes down to it, the executives that control the purse strings are the ones who ultimately steer the development. It is their word I don't trust.
Again, please prove me wrong. Not only would the fans of PotBS be happy, but so would the MMO community at large, so would SOE (as it would help their somewhat tarnished reputation), and so would I.
Isnt SOE the publisher? i dont know how all that stuff works but it seems like SOE just buys everything they publish and keeps on some of the devlopers. Or SOE fired all the devlopers and lets some new game devlopers work with the game untill they screw it up beyond saving.
Sigh. I *am* an executive at FLS. I guess I just blew my cred, huh? I just prefer to write code than to do management and negotiations. On the other hand, it means I *do* know what I'm talking about when it come to the financial state of the company and the contracts we've entered in to. There are no agreements for Sony to buy us. Nor have they ever offered. Nor do we need them. On the other-other hand if they offer us an obscene amount of money like Bioware/Pandemic got from EA, I'm not saying we won't listen! We're not cheap, but we're not stupid either.
Rick Saada - FLS Dev & EPFBM
RickSaada,
It takes a lot to confront those who do not see things like you do, so kudos to you for that.
However, I am going to take your own words to mean that SOE does have devs working on your code to some extent. Maybe you have some excuse for what you said, but I will stay with caution from now on concerning claims of no SOE employees are working on the game.
MikeByron.
Trust is earned, not something to be expected. Asking people to ignore the obvious and glaring problems in SOE's past just based on your words is to much to ask for. You all may be stand up guys, but everything you are saying was said before by others. Some of which have put out a successful MMO. Not to mention a slew of other game designers not affiliated with SOE saying similar promises and suffering similar set backs.
Words are cheap in the Genre right now. Sad to say they have been seriously devalued by those who came before and yes many of them had dealings with SOE or worked at SOE.
This is one game I'm really looking forward to, yes the SoE announcement made me cringe.
But PotBS is doing something new, they are not making or trying to make a WoW clone. (yes I like WoW, I play WoW, I just dont want to pay another subscriptions to play they same game twice. *cough* LotRo*cough*)
I just really hope the trading/crafting aspect (read as non-combat) part of the game has depth, is interesting, and most important, has meaning.
I think you guys have an easy winner, and in a flooded market its one of only two that I'm looking forward too playing.
And to all the naysayers, look at his pic. When you have a Dev as a real life pirate you just cant go wrong.
"I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."
RickSaada,
It takes a lot to confront those who do not see things like you do, so kudos to you for that.
However, I am going to take your own words to mean that SOE does have devs working on your code to some extent. Maybe you have some excuse for what you said, but I will stay with caution from now on concerning claims of no SOE employees are working on the game.
MikeByron.
Trust is earned, not something to be expected. Asking people to ignore the obvious and glaring problems in SOE's past just based on your words is to much to ask for. You all may be stand up guys, but everything you are saying was said before by others. Some of which have put out a successful MMO. Not to mention a slew of other game designers not affiliated with SOE saying similar promises and suffering similar set backs.
Words are cheap in the Genre right now. Sad to say they have been seriously devalued by those who came before and yes many of them had dealings with SOE or worked at SOE.
I don't expect trust. I agree with you. Trust should be earned. I am not saying you should trust us without any evidence. I am saying that if you make public statements about people or companies, I would hope you acknowledge that you are flatly contradicting what they have said. My post was meant to express frustration because I (and Rick) do know what is going on at FLS. We have no way to prove it to you.Read our boards if you want evidence about whether or not you can trust what we have to say. www.burningsea.com.
Sony does not have any coders working on our game. I am the coder that is integrating a lot of the Sony technology we need into the game. We integrated authentication technology because we need it for billing. We are using their localization technology, and some other small pieces. All this goes into a number of their games (I don't know which ones -- we don't work for Sony). Saying Sony is working on our game is like saying Microsoft is working on our game because we use their compilers and database. We use technology, and we get help from their support people. Sony is not coding our game.
Sony *is* doing our translations. Since we have total control of the gameplay in English, there's no significant way they impact the game there, either.
My point was that Sony is not doing the game. The gameplay. The design. We are doing it. Sony has never expressed any interest in affecting the design of the game, and they have no contractual rights to do it if they did want to.
SOE haters can say what ever they want I for 1 am pre ordering this game and cant wait. way to go flying labs for making a game like PoTbS .
This is what I don't want to see. For me, I'm excited to play the damn game like anybody else but I don't want to invest my time playing it then it suddenly died down, meaning subscription begin to dwindle because of stupid mistakes like what had been done with SWG and Vanguard. We may be just a minority of serious gamer in here who thinks that "game continuance" is important but time invested in MMO is part of the fun part. SOE has a track record of really stinking up good game and I don't want them to ruin another one.
__________________
Playing: EVE & Runescape @ work : P
I hate soe
Im a pre patch jedi, I quit swg after returning twice and finaly I admit the game has changed too much and I am finished with swg for good.
I recently bought a new tv and I rejected the sony one (with some relish) so "up yours" sony thats 1000 quid of mine you wont see. ofc the one I choose was better and cheaper, i was spoiled for choice.
but...
Im not punching myself in the face every time soe is mentioned, if soe make swg2 lol (im so dumb) yeah ill prob play it if I think ill like it, I had a ton of fun in swg mixing with hundreds of people in coro cantena and unlocking my jedi on dancer counts as some of the best moments in my online gaming history.
every game has a TOS you must click each time you play, yeah we all never thought parts like "we reserve the right to change any part of the game at any time" would really really come to happen but it did... mabye it will happen again, while we wait for it to happen again I will continue to be entertained in what ever game I like.
oh.. and imho that prick Brad did more damage to the gaming industry than soe and evilea ever did. he owes me 50 quid for zero fun/entertainment.
Brad Mcquaid also swore SOE would never have an influence on Vanguard's design and operation.
Guess intelligent people should totally disregard that fact huh?
Nah. Intelligent people realize that Brad isn't involved in this arrangement in any way, shape, or form.
What 'proof' could they possibly provide that would satisfy the people that claim Sony involvement? People ask for some abstract concept of 'proof' and when they don't see something (without even knowing what that something would be) they think that proves that sony is involved.
The only evidence out there is that it happened 'in other games with other developers'. That isn't evidence... It can suggest it might happen as a possibility but it is far from a sure thing. Just because there are maniacs out there that use knives to stab people doesn't mean mine are used for anything but kitchen utensiles (and maybe last-resort cannon ammo).
SoE is a knife. FLS can either use the knife to cut steak, or cut people. So far they have shown they are only using SoE to handle some of the logistics so they can focus entirely on the game design and programming. FLS is cooking the steak and using SoE to cut it for your eating enjoyment.
Personally, I plan on ordering that steak until the waiters run screaming from the kitchen yelling that the cook's been stabbed.
I hope you enjoyed my little analogy.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence.
Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
Lovely way of putting it! And I fully agree... Just because it CAN happen, doesn't mean it WILL. And in honesty, FLS cares for this game and will not want to see it ruined by SOE.. So I doubt they'll let them.
Funny how poeple use Brad Mcquaid as an exemple in this. While this was a whole differend case, Vanguard failed. It did not has a big amount of subscribers and no way that Sigil could develop the game and keep the server running for longer as I am sure they where losing money big time. Infact Mcquaid most likely did not had an choose then to sell his company to Sony. He most likely invest LOADS of money in Sigil and Vanguard. If he would not have taken the offer from Sony he would most likely end up being extreamly poor after a couple of month. He would have to disband Sigil, file for bankruptcy, have to sell his house/car, etc.
If PotBS would fail then yes big change FLS CEO would sell FLS and the rights to PotBS to Sony if they get an offer. (sure enough they do it if the game is an success and they get a good amount of money for it). However PotBS seems more polished to me and most likely will get an good amount of subscribers keeping FLS way clear from bankruptcy. Beside that FLS also released an game before starting with PoTBS with was an decent game (Rails across America), with I am sure helps them securing there finance.
However yes there is an change that FLS will be taken over by SoE. If the game runs well it might be posible that SoE is willing to pay a lot of money for FLS or the rights to PotBS. However the change EA buying FLS is as big.
Ye one would think that the name "RedwoodSap" would mean that it has an insightful and inteeligent poster behind it. But uhm nope it is not intelligent to use the b/w thinking. Which I, ironically eneought, got the link from within these forums.
I think this argumentation would be avoided by just intelligent people.
So to answer the question you gave. Yes intelligent people actually do disregard that fact, totally.
-------------------------------
A common form of the false dilemma in public discourse is black and white thinking. As an example, consider the following three patterns of reasoning, the first valid, the others invalid.
The first example is valid because natural numbers are either even or odd. The two classes are exhaustive and mutually exclusive. The second example is invalid because the categories "liar" and "truth teller" are neither exhaustive nor mutually exclusive. Anyone may tell some lies and some truths. The third example is invalid reasoning for the same reason as the second (even though its conclusion is true).
-------------------------------
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
.
I am a card carrying member of the SOE haters' club and if Smed was burning alive I would refuse to pee on him.
That being said, he saved Vanguard from the virtual trash bin (Agricola stabs himself in leg with fork). None of the VG debacle was the fault of SOE (stabs again) and Brad sold VG and liquidated Sigil. Smed bought VG and gave half of those staff jobs (Agricola violently headbutts a brick wall after pointing out Smeds acts of benevolence and good business).
As for PotBS it was a problem for me, it is a new fresh game with great ideas but they are involved with the darkside (SOE). I have boycotted Sony products since the CU/R/B debacle of SWG however this was a game I wanted to try but it had the dreaded mark of evil upon it (SOE).
Well after seeing that FLS do communicate with potential customers and hopefully this will continue after release they started earning virtual brownie points. After a while I decided to forget SOE and judge this game soley upon merit. I'll pre-order this game and if I find I don't like it fine, if I do like it then it was worth the risk and to be frank I've taken much bigger risks in my life!
So I say judge this on merit and let the SOE hate train take a back seat, yeah I know it isn't easy but I suggest going to the FLS website and see what they say. SOE is an issue and a big one at that but ask yourself "is it worth the risk? Have I taken bigger risks than $50 before?". If the answer is no then just sit back and if it all goes pear shaped after released you can spam Rick and all us sad fanbois with "I told you so!" posts. If yes then start looking at the FLS website and start asking all those questions you were afraid to ask before!
BTW when Rick Saada does push ups he doesn't...he pushes the world down FACT!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
I admire your courage Rick. And to you agricola1, hats off.
The SWG issue is old, it took place years ago, let it go (not that I do not miss old SWG). We got to live the remaining years of our lives, and we will run into SoE one way or another. Trying not to see it does not change the fact that SoE is a player in this market (good or bad player, you label it, I do not care for adjectives).
Rick, please make us a good game. If the game is good, I will be grabbing a taxi and racing to the nearest store. This I promised. I do not care if SoE distributes it, or Mr Panda does it. I do not care if Rick sells it to SoE later for 1000M US. If only I find a game I enjoy, that will do. That is all that matters.
that's nice. let's just hope you don't fall under the SOE curse. SOE didn't own gods & heroes either.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
microsoft dropped vg because the MS overseeing folk didn't like what they saw. did SOE not install ANY overseeing types? did SOE not give sigil any terms such as "release by X date" when sigil asked to push the release out?
you can blame a lot on sigil and it's asshat of a leader. but SOE is the corporation that allowed vanguard to release and blessed it releasing in the condition it did.
spin it away from soe any way you so desire; but they are directly responsible for vanguard being released in the condition it was released.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Lets not go too far here. I'm *not* Chuck Norris, and I don't need him showing up at my door to break me into little tiny pieces for being a pretender!
Rick Saada - FLS Dev & EPFBM
My eyes just got wet and soaky.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"