From a customer point of view i do NOT have to care about capabilities(or lack of them) and company internals.
I totally agree.
Well what do you expect? In interviews Torres, Smedley AND the SWG devs all admitted THEY played wow. Totally out of sync with their own playerbase.
I'm pretty sure I know what happened, by combining what SOE itself admitted and from my own experience in commercial software.
There are these two things we're fanatical about in commercial software development, called DESIGN DOCUMENTATION and VERSION CONTROL. A professional troubleshooter for the gaming industry once complained to a trade conference that design documents for most games were maybe three pages, if you were lucky. Oodles of creative talent, but no one writing down the nuts and bolts, the reasons why, the shortcuts and the solutions.
Version control... well, it basically means there is only ONE 'live' master version of the code (with daily backups), and access to that master version is handed off from department to department as they add their specific fixes and changes, always making sure to document stuff, so they don't undo another department's work. If you don't follow procedure, you will find that the bug that was fixed in patch 8 is back in patch 9. Sound familiar?
So here you have SOE's SWG team. The first creative differences occur when the game is in beta. People leave, taking undocumented knowledge with them. Half a year after the game goes live (around xmas 2003-4004): boom, another batch of devs leaves. A year after that, around xmas 2004-2005, ANOTHER group suddenly leaves. And this isn't even counting the normal outflow as people find better/more interesting/better located jobs. That's a LOT of knowledge about how the game is tied together walking out the door, and quite likely insufficient documentation to figure out the more intricate parts of the game without actually delving in and mapping it. Which would cost time and money they did not want to spend.
I read an analysis once that remarked on the fact that it was interesting how SOE never proudly published a developer list (with developers' histories and prior achievements) and how many people who applied for other gaming companies showed up in such lists showing SOE as their first employer. I cannot verify this, but it would provide an explanation : hire them young and cheap (and unexperienced), and hope you can keep them once they start getting a grip on things.
It is a known fact (stated in interviews) the CU was in part an attempt to standardize EQ2 and SWG to the same engine, so development and maintenance would become easier, in that EQ2 devs could go help out on SWG (and vice versa) without having to learn a new system. This would mean they could do with less devs. A lot of the CU changes even still had names referring to EQ2. Unfortunately for them, the systems weren't really all that compatible.
I think they were trying to have their pie and eat it: fewer devs, easier system (fewer possible combinations = fewer things to balance), and (in their minds) doing what WoW did and therefore becoming a game that drew in gazillions of players. Colorful effects, colorful icons (straight from EQ2: one of them even showed a HORSE when the CU went live), levels, so everyone knew exactly where they (and everyone else) stood. Game easier and more cartoony = more players, w00t!
I would love to hear the full story behind the NGE. I know it was developed in secrecy, even from (most of) the devs who were working on the CU. I still for the life of me can't figure out how they could possibly think we would like it. It's is 100% certain, however, that LA was a large part of causing these changes, if only because they have very farreaching control over the content of the game and sign off on everything.
In all, my conclusion is that the entire mess happened for the following reasons:
- corporate greed
- unwarranted assumptions, based on little or no research into the actual playerbase as to little things as preferred playstyles, average player age, likes and dislikes in the existing game
- overestimation of interest in the market for the new product
- insufficient creativity
- lack of technical knowhow about their own product
- lack of will to spend the money required to address this lack of knowledge, which brings us back to greed.
- underestimation the reaction of the playerbase by such a margin that it forms hilarious evidence of how BADLY out of touch they were.
You'll have to excuse me if my timeline has flaws, I'm working from memory here. I read way too much in way too many places to provide references, but I'm sure you'll be able to track down the same info I did.
People scoff at good documentation, seeing it as a waste of time or beneath them and their L33T coding skills. Yet it is so very imporant. Bigger the project, the more important it is. Same with controlling the code.
From a customer point of view i do NOT have to care about capabilities(or lack of them) and company internals.
I totally agree.
Well what do you expect? In interviews Torres, Smedley AND the SWG devs all admitted THEY played wow. Totally out of sync with their own playerbase.
I'm pretty sure I know what happened, by combining what SOE itself admitted and from my own experience in commercial software.
There are these two things we're fanatical about in commercial software development, called DESIGN DOCUMENTATION and VERSION CONTROL. A professional troubleshooter for the gaming industry once complained to a trade conference that design documents for most games were maybe three pages, if you were lucky. Oodles of creative talent, but no one writing down the nuts and bolts, the reasons why, the shortcuts and the solutions.
Version control... well, it basically means there is only ONE 'live' master version of the code (with daily backups), and access to that master version is handed off from department to department as they add their specific fixes and changes, always making sure to document stuff, so they don't undo another department's work. If you don't follow procedure, you will find that the bug that was fixed in patch 8 is back in patch 9. Sound familiar?
So here you have SOE's SWG team. The first creative differences occur when the game is in beta. People leave, taking undocumented knowledge with them. Half a year after the game goes live (around xmas 2003-4004): boom, another batch of devs leaves. A year after that, around xmas 2004-2005, ANOTHER group suddenly leaves. And this isn't even counting the normal outflow as people find better/more interesting/better located jobs. That's a LOT of knowledge about how the game is tied together walking out the door, and quite likely insufficient documentation to figure out the more intricate parts of the game without actually delving in and mapping it. Which would cost time and money they did not want to spend.
I read an analysis once that remarked on the fact that it was interesting how SOE never proudly published a developer list (with developers' histories and prior achievements) and how many people who applied for other gaming companies showed up in such lists showing SOE as their first employer. I cannot verify this, but it would provide an explanation : hire them young and cheap (and unexperienced), and hope you can keep them once they start getting a grip on things.
It is a known fact (stated in interviews) the CU was in part an attempt to standardize EQ2 and SWG to the same engine, so development and maintenance would become easier, in that EQ2 devs could go help out on SWG (and vice versa) without having to learn a new system. This would mean they could do with less devs. A lot of the CU changes even still had names referring to EQ2. Unfortunately for them, the systems weren't really all that compatible.
I think they were trying to have their pie and eat it: fewer devs, easier system (fewer possible combinations = fewer things to balance), and (in their minds) doing what WoW did and therefore becoming a game that drew in gazillions of players. Colorful effects, colorful icons (straight from EQ2: one of them even showed a HORSE when the CU went live), levels, so everyone knew exactly where they (and everyone else) stood. Game easier and more cartoony = more players, w00t!
I would love to hear the full story behind the NGE. I know it was developed in secrecy, even from (most of) the devs who were working on the CU. I still for the life of me can't figure out how they could possibly think we would like it. It's is 100% certain, however, that LA was a large part of causing these changes, if only because they have very farreaching control over the content of the game and sign off on everything.
In all, my conclusion is that the entire mess happened for the following reasons:
- corporate greed
- unwarranted assumptions, based on little or no research into the actual playerbase as to little things as preferred playstyles, average player age, likes and dislikes in the existing game
- overestimation of interest in the market for the new product
- insufficient creativity
- lack of technical knowhow about their own product
- lack of will to spend the money required to address this lack of knowledge, which brings us back to greed.
- underestimation the reaction of the playerbase by such a margin that it forms hilarious evidence of how BADLY out of touch they were.
You'll have to excuse me if my timeline has flaws, I'm working from memory here. I read way too much in way too many places to provide references, but I'm sure you'll be able to track down the same info I did.
To the common MMO evil $OE who exiled hundered of thousands Star Wars gamer with CU / NGE crap patches. Learned to hold and fight with a Pistol, fought with swords , axes, hammer, stun batton, rifle, lightining cannon... with my bare hands and with a lightsaber too. Served dishes, clothed people, build buildings, selled spices, crafted RIS, T21, and a AV 21 speeder too. I feigned death , healed wounds and revived . Collected eggs , DNA 'd me a kimogila. i fished with pole, i hunted herbivore avian meat for doc, crafted buff lasting 3h 50m. hunted for rancors at the vallay, for kimos in lok and ancient krayts on Tat. Was tired after fights and after i watching dancer in cantinas i feeled better, Played instruments, sang songs , expressed myself with dancing.gifted a holocron, bought holocrons, waited for the old man. Visited aurelia, captured a general, survived an village invasion, crafted my first lightsaber. Hided miles away from any other , got killed for bounty, killed for bounty, meet the force ranks, the jedi council. Joined a guild , placed a house , helped city become metropolis, hunted in solo group, looted crystals.... one day ..you destroyed my world...you EXILED me... 15.11..... you $OE deleted my posts about not destroying my world..... you $OE banned me for me asking about my world you $OE decline to restore the world , who offered me that rich experiences i made...... you $OE ignorant fools ...who victimezed me ..... NOW audit and may you notice this THE THOUSANDS OF PRE CU VETS MAKE THE DIFFERENCE
Um so are you gonna do this every year till your dead?
Yes what LA / SOE did was bad, but then alot of things in life are, most people get over it and move on, some obviously don't. However for your information your world was not destroyed its still all around you, and from the sounds of things probably misses you. Your pinning so much for your make believe world that doesn't exist that I imagine your missing out on a good part of the one that DOES exist.
Suggestion (and yes only a suggestion) gp put see a movie, live life alittle. Not saying you have to forget SWG ?LA /SOE if you see any of their products (and this means LA ones too) don't buy them vote with your wallet, rather then spend time here whinning about things you can not change.
This will likely be the last year. SWG is not very likely to make it to next November. In fact, it's going to lucky to make it to the 5th anniversary of 6/26/03 if it even lasts that long.
My hopes is by 11/15/08 we are discussing the new KOTOR game that will be out in 2009 instead of only throwing eggs at Sony. Of course we will STILL be throwing insults at SOE, always.
But and there is a but there if There is a new KOTOR MMO coming out from Bioware and Lucas Arts it will still be Lucas arts. LA has total and final say on their IP SOE never forced the NGE on LA. More likely LA said we need to change SWG make it so SOE and Sony had too.
Once asgain I'd ahve to point out Lucas Arts was at least 50% responsible for the NGE (they could have stopped it in the very least as they have final say) However people are still gonna be sending money to them and saying oh thank god my money isn't going to SOE because of the NGE. Fairly funny really. Would be really interesting to see if LA would pull a NGE in KOTOR as well though gotta admit one would hope they learned from thier mistake in SWG.
To the common MMO evil $OE who exiled hundered of thousands Star Wars gamer with CU / NGE crap patches. Learned to hold and fight with a Pistol, fought with swords , axes, hammer, stun batton, rifle, lightining cannon... with my bare hands and with a lightsaber too. Served dishes, clothed people, build buildings, selled spices, crafted RIS, T21, and a AV 21 speeder too. I feigned death , healed wounds and revived . Collected eggs , DNA 'd me a kimogila. i fished with pole, i hunted herbivore avian meat for doc, crafted buff lasting 3h 50m. hunted for rancors at the vallay, for kimos in lok and ancient krayts on Tat. Was tired after fights and after i watching dancer in cantinas i feeled better, Played instruments, sang songs , expressed myself with dancing.gifted a holocron, bought holocrons, waited for the old man. Visited aurelia, captured a general, survived an village invasion, crafted my first lightsaber. Hided miles away from any other , got killed for bounty, killed for bounty, meet the force ranks, the jedi council. Joined a guild , placed a house , helped city become metropolis, hunted in solo group, looted crystals.... one day ..you destroyed my world...you EXILED me... 15.11..... you $OE deleted my posts about not destroying my world..... you $OE banned me for me asking about my world you $OE decline to restore the world , who offered me that rich experiences i made...... you $OE ignorant fools ...who victimezed me ..... NOW audit and may you notice this THE THOUSANDS OF PRE CU VETS MAKE THE DIFFERENCE
THIS.
preach on bro....maybe one day someone will release something close to what thousands are longing for.
Well what do you expect? In interviews Torres, Smedley AND the SWG devs all admitted THEY played wow. Totally out of sync with their own playerbase.
Yes, I remember that. They also played a lot of FPS games.
Such a pity, if they had only played that other sandbox, open-ended game for mature players that was also getting million-sub audiences at the time - Second Life - then perhaps SWG could have been protected from the short-attention span, instant gratification, poorly educated SOE dev base.
Originally posted by Linna Originally posted by hubertgrove Originally posted by gadunk Originally posted by hubertgrove Originally posted by gadunk geeze.. Pre-CU SWG wasn't even that great of a game anyway. Get over it.
Firstly, if it wasn't 'that great of a game'. how come thousands of players still log in here and in other gamer sites to protest against the NGE even now, two years later?
Secondly, as for 'Get over it', this is the Vets Refuge. f you don't like the tone or tenor of our posts, leave this forum and find another more suitable to you. Maybe the Final Fantasy forum? Thousands? You mean dozens. No, I did mean thousands. May I recommend you visit many, many game and gamer sistes, not only those based in the US but across the world, in Europe, in Asia and, of course, in Australia? You will find that anti-NGE SWGers have a strong and continuing presence in the forums of all such sites. Pro-NGEers like yourself make a weaker, more apologetic appearance. I concur. I represent a GUILD, 99% of whom don't even come here, but who still feel the same, and all curse SOE to this day. Vocal minority my ass. Linna
Amen! My whole PA quit shortly after the NGE disaster.
Linna, wonderful post (I won't quote from it, it's long and meaty!) about the obvious lack of project management at SOE.
I'm no fully trained professional in software project management, but I knew enough about it from working with system administrators at an ISP to have seen the obvious lack of it at SOE. Your comment about devs leaving and taking their undocumented institutional knowledge with them rings very true to me.
One of the things I never got time to do at the ISP I worked for was get so much of the "reason the way things are" out of my head and on to paper. But it's an absolute essential thing in a project as big as SWG is. It was obvious to me as an observer that version control wasn't being rigidly enforced, that the devs were not documenting why they made certain changes.
For example, early on a decision was made to alter the way mobs reacted to player attacks because players were using kiting techniques on them when they got "stuck" on geometry. This created another problem, but the thing was, the devs had forgotten they made the change, and reverted back to the old behavior, bringing back the old problem! It wasn't fixed, it was "massaged", and the massaging only swapped one issue for another. This was only over a period of like four months or so!
Another thing that drove me nuts about the devs was how they'd say they did something to "fix and exploit" but wouldn't tell us what exactly it was. I understood the need to have a policy about uncorrected exploits in their code, but when they supposedly fixed it why not let players know so they could stress it and see if the fix really did what it was supposed to?
If you all might recall, in the early days of the game you had to have a camp deployed to call creature/droid/faction pets outside of the metropolitan zones. Only someone with the novice scout skill box (15 SPs) could throw up a camp. There was an exception, within a specific radius of your declared residence, you could call one of these pets. The thing was, due to a coding error, that ability was reversed; there was a "doughnut" around your declared residence where you could not call, and everywhere else you could! As more and more players aquired player houses and declared residence, more and more players discovered that they could call pets at will nearly anywhere due to this bug...which for CHs bedeviled by pets that sometimes just stored themselves randomly was DEFINTITELY a feature!
So, players were calling pets at will just about everywhere, with only the time restrictions imposed to prevent CHs from "rotating" pets in combat to hold them back. Those restrictions were perfectly understandable and reasonable for balanced gameplay, btw.
Anyways, the vehicle publish came out, and crafters in particular were using vehicles to get to remote places to plant harvesters. The catch were vehicles were initially quite buggy and could poof out from underneath as you were zipping along, at random. This could leave players with poor combat skills out in the wilderness at the mercy of the mobs, when before they'd zip by them without worrying too much. The other catch was the calling zone bug was fixed, so you had to have a camp to get your vehicle back, it was treated like a pet for calling purposes.
Well, giving up 15 SPs just to call your vehicle after it had poofed out from beneath you angered a lot of people. Not just crafters, mind you, but serious combat types who did not want to part with 15 SPs for scout skills to toss up a camp.
The devs insisted that you had to have the camp requirement to call because there wasa "griefing exploit" in play in PvP that made calling a pet or vehicle anywhere a major issue. CHs had been arguing for months that because of the residence calling error, they had had call at will and they weren't seeing issues. The other problem was that because most PvP took place in metropolitan areas, whre you could already call at will, what was this griefing exploit for PvP that they were so concerned about that had to have calling from a camp as a solution?
The developers REFUSED to articulate this...it turns out that they were still under the impression that the camp calling requirement had something to do with PvP, but the reality was that the time restrictions on calling took care of that issue rather nicely, something that camps didn't address as the original "solution" for the "pet rotation" issue.
Yet they insisted, with bloody determination, that allowing crafters (or anyone else, for that matter) to call vehicles at will without a camp in the wild would make it so someone, somewhere could call a pet of some sort to grief someone.
But in call at will metropolitian regions this was somehow not an issue.
They apparently didn't have documentation on this particular process to reference...perhaps the dev responsible had moved on and didn't bother to write any of it down.
Or the devs were just being really bloody-mindedly obtuse when players in the fora shot holes the size of maklocks in the devs' justification for this particular game rule set.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
One of my fondest SWG memories was being chased round endor by a super battle droid with a one handed axe..this was in the days before the CU hardly star wars was it.
Dude back in the day their were no super battle droids anywhere in the game, let alone Endor. Me thinks your are full of $hit.
Death watch bunker. Introduced WAY before the CU. Those battle droids were NASTY. Please check your facts before you call people out.
Linna
Back in the day it's likely you were pwned by the mobs around the DWB well before you even set foot in the blasted place. Making a successful run through the DWB to the end killing the Overlord prior to the CU was virtually unheard of.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
no point in any pre cu now, swg was doomed to fail , whit jedi as its main center point.
Playing:World of Warcraft. Played:Lord of the Rings Online, Starwars Galaxies. Tried:Starwars the Old Republic, Everquest 2, Guild Wars, Vanguard, Age of Conan, Aion.
I never got to play pre-NGE myself, and even I'm miffed about it. CU looked like it had promise, so I wasn't upset about it, but making it easy to be a jedi? Once I heard they changed that, along with most of the old system that I was psyched about trying out, they lost another customer that had finally gotten a decent computer (yeah, I'm normally behind the curve on pc performance), no telling how many others. Hell, I've got a few friends that used to play and would be willing if they would start up a classic server, but I suppose it's just wishful thinking.
I would love to hear the full story behind the NGE. I know it was developed in secrecy, even from (most of) the devs who were working on the CU. I still for the life of me can't figure out how they could possibly think we would like it. It's is 100% certain, however, that LA was a large part of causing these changes, if only because they have very farreaching control over the content of the game and sign off on everything. In all, my conclusion is that the entire mess happened for the following reasons: - corporate greed
- unwarranted assumptions, based on little or no research into the actual playerbase as to little things as preferred playstyles, average player age, likes and dislikes in the existing game
- overestimation of interest in the market for the new product
- insufficient creativity
- lack of technical knowhow about their own product
- lack of will to spend the money required to address this lack of knowledge, which brings us back to greed.
- underestimation the reaction of the playerbase by such a margin that it forms hilarious evidence of how BADLY out of touch they were. You'll have to excuse me if my timeline has flaws, I'm working from memory here. I read way too much in way too many places to provide references, but I'm sure you'll be able to track down the same info I did. Linna
Good read Linna.
About the NGE story or background. I remember it being mentioned that it was the team behind JTL that was mostly behind the concept, idea and implementation of the NGE. Might have been just a rumour, but it would fit in nicely in time. I have nothing bad to say about JTL since that type of system work very well in space. However as we all know the NGE, which have similarities to the JTL system, was a different story...
I also saw someone mentioning SBD's, Endor and the DWB in this thread. Well here's some more memories from the real SWG. It's a rather large download, but it's worth it . It's something for both old vet's and for all those unfortunate ones that never experienced the old game.
The video is of the SDK guild doing the Foreman's quest.
Way into the video, notice when the "camera man" pulls out the window with the 9 HAM stats, BF and wounds (oh memories...). Also I don't know if it's just me, but while watching these old videos and remembering how it was I think the old UI was a lot more clean in some ways. And of course all the old animations and no oversized particle effects that destroys the whole scene.
What's also visible is one of the weak points of the old game. Notice how they are focusing on mind damage. Watch the blue pillar of 4 digit damage numbers above the SBD's /grin. While this didn't really matter in PvE situations like in the vid, it was unfortunally the weak point and the killer in PvP.
I don't know if he's still around SWG at all, but you'll want to talk to Brisc if you haven't already done so. As a correspondent he had a lot of interesting backdoor information on the CU. My memory is a little fuzzy, but as I recall, he mentioned the developers weren't interested in the concerns of the correspondents at all, and some of them were becoming absolutely livid.
I had a conversation with him a few days after the NGE went live and I think he said it was over absolutely everyone's head, including the correspondents. He seemed about as dismayed as I did at the time.
I'd been back a few times to poke my head around, talk to some old folks and receive the same response from multiple friends: the game isn't ready yet. "Give it a year."
As far as what the developers were thinking -- my take is that they were thinking ahead of the game. They had a solid vision in mind but executed it both poorly and hastily. The kind of visionary gameplay that they had in mind when they conceived the NGE is visible now in games like Tabula Rasa and Mass Effect -- and it actually works there.
My particular theory is that they were behind on their alpha production schedule when they were forced to release it thanks to the impending Episode III. That would explain why it was released so suddenly and without much ado. It got a live testing cycle straight from an accelerated development cycle. It was crap, they knew it was crap, and it got called crap by both players and review magazines alike. They had few options aside from defending their position and hope to build up from the ground.
- Corbin
-- xpaladin
[MMOz] AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
Brisc (calls himself DCGuy these days) and I aren't exactly on speaking terms. I know where he hangs (lot of fight, rival, dread, axis etc hang there), if you're interested, i'll PM you the site.
I'm not sure how much of the truth the correspondents were ever told about the technical state of the game. I AM sure, however, the regular staff and correspondents were completely blindsided by the NGE, same as us. Lots of staff left too, after the NGE.
I'm not exactly enthusiastic about TR, I think the game is extremely lacking. Literally couldn't bring myself to log in anymore after 2 months of beta, sick of bane and flimsy story arcs. If that's the future of MMO gaming, then I'll probably quit doing it, although I'll grant you it's what the NGE tried and failed to be. Flimsy as the story arc is, the missions are a lot more intereting than the retarded NGE quests.
Lots of ex-SWG people sighted hovering around Pirates of the Burning Seas, which is much more to my tastes. Ports to conquer! Arr!
I'm not exactly enthusiastic about TR, I think the game is extremely lacking. Literally couldn't bring myself to log in anymore after 2 months of beta, sick of bane and flimsy story arcs. If that's the future of MMO gaming, then I'll probably quit doing it, although I'll grant you it's what the NGE tried and failed to be. Flimsy as the story arc is, the missions are a lot more intereting than the retarded NGE quests.
Heheh. Yeah I'd heard about all their fun times in TDA and whatnot. I was actually a member for about a week (in my WoW days) before I wisely snuck out and disappeared. There are only a few people I talk to from those days anymore, and not all that frequently.
One thing I'll note, regarding the quoted piece above, is that games -- especially the massive multiplayers -- are evolutionary monsters. I don't think Planetside, SWG:NGE, and TR are the absolute final renditions of action-based massively multiplayer roleplaying games. They're just more links on the chain to what will ultimately wind up being the WoW of the Action RPG market, not necessarily an end-all-be-all. Luckily, "traditional" MMORPGs are here to stay for a while yet.
-- xpaladin
[MMOz] AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
Yes the newbs SOE that know nothing of gaming and only cares about there money , well i gave them another chnace on another game called Vanguard and guess what?......... Well they had to go ruin that game for us to ,the stupid ******* SOE with their ******* money grabbing hands, SOE needs to **** of back were they came from and fire themselves and yes i am suspecting this to be deleted becuase people dont like the truth getting out
Yes the newbs SOE that know nothing of gaming and only cares about there money , well i gave them another chnace on another game called Vanguard and guess what?......... Well they had to go ruin that game for us to ,the stupid ******* SOE with their ******* money grabbing hands, SOE needs to **** of back were they came from and fire themselves and yes i am suspecting this to be deleted becuase people dont like the truth getting out
I have no love for SOE, lets make that clear first.
But Vanguard wasnt SOE's fault. Sigil screwed that one well before SOE. Yes, SOE was the publisher but Sigil was in charge of all game related issues and such.
I was in beta for VG and played for about 3 months after release, from what I hear, SOe has actually helped VG alot in the last couple months. But since it was terrible to begin with, its not hard to say they helped it..
Yes the newbs SOE that know nothing of gaming and only cares about there money , well i gave them another chnace on another game called Vanguard and guess what?......... Well they had to go ruin that game for us to ,the stupid ******* SOE with their ******* money grabbing hands, SOE needs to **** of back were they came from and fire themselves and yes i am suspecting this to be deleted becuase people dont like the truth getting out
I have no love for SOE, lets make that clear first.
But Vanguard wasnt SOE's fault. Sigil screwed that one well before SOE. Yes, SOE was the publisher but Sigil was in charge of all game related issues and such.
I was in beta for VG and played for about 3 months after release, from what I hear, SOe has actually helped VG alot in the last couple months. But since it was terrible to begin with, its not hard to say they helped it..
But you have to wonder why they took it over when you consider that their reputation preceded it. Surely SOE must have been aware that taking on Vanguard would only hurt their reputation further if they were to fix it while people are playing it.
I remember that during beta Sigil actually had to include a note in their FAQ that SOE was only hosting and not going to be involved in developing at all.
I honored the 2 year anniversary by pulling off an 8 month publicity stunt to draw attention to our cause. Heck, I even got ban ( and I am surprised that I did not get premabanned). I had to watch the NGE from the side lines as I witnessed the CU preview at Celebrations 3. I will never forget so you can still -
Yes the newbs SOE that know nothing of gaming and only cares about there money , well i gave them another chnace on another game called Vanguard and guess what?......... Well they had to go ruin that game for us to ,the stupid ******* SOE with their ******* money grabbing hands, SOE needs to **** of back were they came from and fire themselves and yes i am suspecting this to be deleted becuase people dont like the truth getting out
I have no love for SOE, lets make that clear first.
But Vanguard wasnt SOE's fault. Sigil screwed that one well before SOE. Yes, SOE was the publisher but Sigil was in charge of all game related issues and such.
I was in beta for VG and played for about 3 months after release, from what I hear, SOe has actually helped VG alot in the last couple months. But since it was terrible to begin with, its not hard to say they helped it..
But you have to wonder why they took it over when you consider that their reputation preceded it. Surely SOE must have been aware that taking on Vanguard would only hurt their reputation further if they were to fix it while people are playing it.
I remember that during beta Sigil actually had to include a note in their FAQ that SOE was only hosting and not going to be involved in developing at all.
I suppose so but those the only two SOE games that were kinda ruined by SOE even if they did'nt controll vanguard but them just being there ruined it for sigil because alot of peeps would not get the game just becuase thye know SOE is a publisher, but my tip for SOE is to keep to first-person shooters thats online like planetside that was their only good game thats not ruined yet and i strain the "yet" very much but apperently they have also ruined games like Everquest
Comments
I totally agree.
Well what do you expect? In interviews Torres, Smedley AND the SWG devs all admitted THEY played wow. Totally out of sync with their own playerbase.
I'm pretty sure I know what happened, by combining what SOE itself admitted and from my own experience in commercial software.
There are these two things we're fanatical about in commercial software development, called DESIGN DOCUMENTATION and VERSION CONTROL. A professional troubleshooter for the gaming industry once complained to a trade conference that design documents for most games were maybe three pages, if you were lucky. Oodles of creative talent, but no one writing down the nuts and bolts, the reasons why, the shortcuts and the solutions.
Version control... well, it basically means there is only ONE 'live' master version of the code (with daily backups), and access to that master version is handed off from department to department as they add their specific fixes and changes, always making sure to document stuff, so they don't undo another department's work. If you don't follow procedure, you will find that the bug that was fixed in patch 8 is back in patch 9. Sound familiar?
So here you have SOE's SWG team. The first creative differences occur when the game is in beta. People leave, taking undocumented knowledge with them. Half a year after the game goes live (around xmas 2003-4004): boom, another batch of devs leaves. A year after that, around xmas 2004-2005, ANOTHER group suddenly leaves. And this isn't even counting the normal outflow as people find better/more interesting/better located jobs. That's a LOT of knowledge about how the game is tied together walking out the door, and quite likely insufficient documentation to figure out the more intricate parts of the game without actually delving in and mapping it. Which would cost time and money they did not want to spend.
I read an analysis once that remarked on the fact that it was interesting how SOE never proudly published a developer list (with developers' histories and prior achievements) and how many people who applied for other gaming companies showed up in such lists showing SOE as their first employer. I cannot verify this, but it would provide an explanation : hire them young and cheap (and unexperienced), and hope you can keep them once they start getting a grip on things.
It is a known fact (stated in interviews) the CU was in part an attempt to standardize EQ2 and SWG to the same engine, so development and maintenance would become easier, in that EQ2 devs could go help out on SWG (and vice versa) without having to learn a new system. This would mean they could do with less devs. A lot of the CU changes even still had names referring to EQ2. Unfortunately for them, the systems weren't really all that compatible.
I think they were trying to have their pie and eat it: fewer devs, easier system (fewer possible combinations = fewer things to balance), and (in their minds) doing what WoW did and therefore becoming a game that drew in gazillions of players. Colorful effects, colorful icons (straight from EQ2: one of them even showed a HORSE when the CU went live), levels, so everyone knew exactly where they (and everyone else) stood. Game easier and more cartoony = more players, w00t!
I would love to hear the full story behind the NGE. I know it was developed in secrecy, even from (most of) the devs who were working on the CU. I still for the life of me can't figure out how they could possibly think we would like it. It's is 100% certain, however, that LA was a large part of causing these changes, if only because they have very farreaching control over the content of the game and sign off on everything.
In all, my conclusion is that the entire mess happened for the following reasons:
- corporate greed
- unwarranted assumptions, based on little or no research into the actual playerbase as to little things as preferred playstyles, average player age, likes and dislikes in the existing game
- overestimation of interest in the market for the new product
- insufficient creativity
- lack of technical knowhow about their own product
- lack of will to spend the money required to address this lack of knowledge, which brings us back to greed.
- underestimation the reaction of the playerbase by such a margin that it forms hilarious evidence of how BADLY out of touch they were.
You'll have to excuse me if my timeline has flaws, I'm working from memory here. I read way too much in way too many places to provide references, but I'm sure you'll be able to track down the same info I did.
Linna
People scoff at good documentation, seeing it as a waste of time or beneath them and their L33T coding skills. Yet it is so very imporant. Bigger the project, the more important it is. Same with controlling the code.
Good Project Managers make huge $$$ for a reason.
I totally agree.
Well what do you expect? In interviews Torres, Smedley AND the SWG devs all admitted THEY played wow. Totally out of sync with their own playerbase.
I'm pretty sure I know what happened, by combining what SOE itself admitted and from my own experience in commercial software.
There are these two things we're fanatical about in commercial software development, called DESIGN DOCUMENTATION and VERSION CONTROL. A professional troubleshooter for the gaming industry once complained to a trade conference that design documents for most games were maybe three pages, if you were lucky. Oodles of creative talent, but no one writing down the nuts and bolts, the reasons why, the shortcuts and the solutions.
Version control... well, it basically means there is only ONE 'live' master version of the code (with daily backups), and access to that master version is handed off from department to department as they add their specific fixes and changes, always making sure to document stuff, so they don't undo another department's work. If you don't follow procedure, you will find that the bug that was fixed in patch 8 is back in patch 9. Sound familiar?
So here you have SOE's SWG team. The first creative differences occur when the game is in beta. People leave, taking undocumented knowledge with them. Half a year after the game goes live (around xmas 2003-4004): boom, another batch of devs leaves. A year after that, around xmas 2004-2005, ANOTHER group suddenly leaves. And this isn't even counting the normal outflow as people find better/more interesting/better located jobs. That's a LOT of knowledge about how the game is tied together walking out the door, and quite likely insufficient documentation to figure out the more intricate parts of the game without actually delving in and mapping it. Which would cost time and money they did not want to spend.
I read an analysis once that remarked on the fact that it was interesting how SOE never proudly published a developer list (with developers' histories and prior achievements) and how many people who applied for other gaming companies showed up in such lists showing SOE as their first employer. I cannot verify this, but it would provide an explanation : hire them young and cheap (and unexperienced), and hope you can keep them once they start getting a grip on things.
It is a known fact (stated in interviews) the CU was in part an attempt to standardize EQ2 and SWG to the same engine, so development and maintenance would become easier, in that EQ2 devs could go help out on SWG (and vice versa) without having to learn a new system. This would mean they could do with less devs. A lot of the CU changes even still had names referring to EQ2. Unfortunately for them, the systems weren't really all that compatible.
I think they were trying to have their pie and eat it: fewer devs, easier system (fewer possible combinations = fewer things to balance), and (in their minds) doing what WoW did and therefore becoming a game that drew in gazillions of players. Colorful effects, colorful icons (straight from EQ2: one of them even showed a HORSE when the CU went live), levels, so everyone knew exactly where they (and everyone else) stood. Game easier and more cartoony = more players, w00t!
I would love to hear the full story behind the NGE. I know it was developed in secrecy, even from (most of) the devs who were working on the CU. I still for the life of me can't figure out how they could possibly think we would like it. It's is 100% certain, however, that LA was a large part of causing these changes, if only because they have very farreaching control over the content of the game and sign off on everything.
In all, my conclusion is that the entire mess happened for the following reasons:
- corporate greed
- unwarranted assumptions, based on little or no research into the actual playerbase as to little things as preferred playstyles, average player age, likes and dislikes in the existing game
- overestimation of interest in the market for the new product
- insufficient creativity
- lack of technical knowhow about their own product
- lack of will to spend the money required to address this lack of knowledge, which brings us back to greed.
- underestimation the reaction of the playerbase by such a margin that it forms hilarious evidence of how BADLY out of touch they were.
You'll have to excuse me if my timeline has flaws, I'm working from memory here. I read way too much in way too many places to provide references, but I'm sure you'll be able to track down the same info I did.
Linna
well said and i bet 100% TRUE
Yes what LA / SOE did was bad, but then alot of things in life are, most people get over it and move on, some obviously don't. However for your information your world was not destroyed its still all around you, and from the sounds of things probably misses you. Your pinning so much for your make believe world that doesn't exist that I imagine your missing out on a good part of the one that DOES exist.
Suggestion (and yes only a suggestion) gp put see a movie, live life alittle. Not saying you have to forget SWG ?LA /SOE if you see any of their products (and this means LA ones too) don't buy them vote with your wallet, rather then spend time here whinning about things you can not change.
This will likely be the last year. SWG is not very likely to make it to next November. In fact, it's going to lucky to make it to the 5th anniversary of 6/26/03 if it even lasts that long.
My hopes is by 11/15/08 we are discussing the new KOTOR game that will be out in 2009 instead of only throwing eggs at Sony. Of course we will STILL be throwing insults at SOE, always.
But and there is a but there if There is a new KOTOR MMO coming out from Bioware and Lucas Arts it will still be Lucas arts. LA has total and final say on their IP SOE never forced the NGE on LA. More likely LA said we need to change SWG make it so SOE and Sony had too.Once asgain I'd ahve to point out Lucas Arts was at least 50% responsible for the NGE (they could have stopped it in the very least as they have final say) However people are still gonna be sending money to them and saying oh thank god my money isn't going to SOE because of the NGE. Fairly funny really. Would be really interesting to see if LA would pull a NGE in KOTOR as well though gotta admit one would hope they learned from thier mistake in SWG.
preach on bro....maybe one day someone will release something close to what thousands are longing for.
==========================
Such a pity, if they had only played that other sandbox, open-ended game for mature players that was also getting million-sub audiences at the time - Second Life - then perhaps SWG could have been protected from the short-attention span, instant gratification, poorly educated SOE dev base.
Secondly, as for 'Get over it', this is the Vets Refuge. f you don't like the tone or tenor of our posts, leave this forum and find another more suitable to you. Maybe the Final Fantasy forum?
Thousands? You mean dozens.
No, I did mean thousands. May I recommend you visit many, many game and gamer sistes, not only those based in the US but across the world, in Europe, in Asia and, of course, in Australia? You will find that anti-NGE SWGers have a strong and continuing presence in the forums of all such sites. Pro-NGEers like yourself make a weaker, more apologetic appearance.
I concur. I represent a GUILD, 99% of whom don't even come here, but who still feel the same, and all curse SOE to this day. Vocal minority my ass.
Linna
Amen! My whole PA quit shortly after the NGE disaster.
.: mmogle.com - the mmo question hub :.
Linna, wonderful post (I won't quote from it, it's long and meaty!) about the obvious lack of project management at SOE.
I'm no fully trained professional in software project management, but I knew enough about it from working with system administrators at an ISP to have seen the obvious lack of it at SOE. Your comment about devs leaving and taking their undocumented institutional knowledge with them rings very true to me.
One of the things I never got time to do at the ISP I worked for was get so much of the "reason the way things are" out of my head and on to paper. But it's an absolute essential thing in a project as big as SWG is. It was obvious to me as an observer that version control wasn't being rigidly enforced, that the devs were not documenting why they made certain changes.
For example, early on a decision was made to alter the way mobs reacted to player attacks because players were using kiting techniques on them when they got "stuck" on geometry. This created another problem, but the thing was, the devs had forgotten they made the change, and reverted back to the old behavior, bringing back the old problem! It wasn't fixed, it was "massaged", and the massaging only swapped one issue for another. This was only over a period of like four months or so!
Another thing that drove me nuts about the devs was how they'd say they did something to "fix and exploit" but wouldn't tell us what exactly it was. I understood the need to have a policy about uncorrected exploits in their code, but when they supposedly fixed it why not let players know so they could stress it and see if the fix really did what it was supposed to?
If you all might recall, in the early days of the game you had to have a camp deployed to call creature/droid/faction pets outside of the metropolitan zones. Only someone with the novice scout skill box (15 SPs) could throw up a camp. There was an exception, within a specific radius of your declared residence, you could call one of these pets. The thing was, due to a coding error, that ability was reversed; there was a "doughnut" around your declared residence where you could not call, and everywhere else you could! As more and more players aquired player houses and declared residence, more and more players discovered that they could call pets at will nearly anywhere due to this bug...which for CHs bedeviled by pets that sometimes just stored themselves randomly was DEFINTITELY a feature!
So, players were calling pets at will just about everywhere, with only the time restrictions imposed to prevent CHs from "rotating" pets in combat to hold them back. Those restrictions were perfectly understandable and reasonable for balanced gameplay, btw.
Anyways, the vehicle publish came out, and crafters in particular were using vehicles to get to remote places to plant harvesters. The catch were vehicles were initially quite buggy and could poof out from underneath as you were zipping along, at random. This could leave players with poor combat skills out in the wilderness at the mercy of the mobs, when before they'd zip by them without worrying too much. The other catch was the calling zone bug was fixed, so you had to have a camp to get your vehicle back, it was treated like a pet for calling purposes.
Well, giving up 15 SPs just to call your vehicle after it had poofed out from beneath you angered a lot of people. Not just crafters, mind you, but serious combat types who did not want to part with 15 SPs for scout skills to toss up a camp.
The devs insisted that you had to have the camp requirement to call because there wasa "griefing exploit" in play in PvP that made calling a pet or vehicle anywhere a major issue. CHs had been arguing for months that because of the residence calling error, they had had call at will and they weren't seeing issues. The other problem was that because most PvP took place in metropolitan areas, whre you could already call at will, what was this griefing exploit for PvP that they were so concerned about that had to have calling from a camp as a solution?
The developers REFUSED to articulate this...it turns out that they were still under the impression that the camp calling requirement had something to do with PvP, but the reality was that the time restrictions on calling took care of that issue rather nicely, something that camps didn't address as the original "solution" for the "pet rotation" issue.
Yet they insisted, with bloody determination, that allowing crafters (or anyone else, for that matter) to call vehicles at will without a camp in the wild would make it so someone, somewhere could call a pet of some sort to grief someone.
But in call at will metropolitian regions this was somehow not an issue.
They apparently didn't have documentation on this particular process to reference...perhaps the dev responsible had moved on and didn't bother to write any of it down.
Or the devs were just being really bloody-mindedly obtuse when players in the fora shot holes the size of maklocks in the devs' justification for this particular game rule set.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
One of my fondest SWG memories was being chased round endor by a super battle droid with a one handed axe..this was in the days before the CU hardly star wars was it.
Dude back in the day their were no super battle droids anywhere in the game, let alone Endor.
Me thinks your are full of $hit.
Linna
Linna
Back in the day it's likely you were pwned by the mobs around the DWB well before you even set foot in the blasted place. Making a successful run through the DWB to the end killing the Overlord prior to the CU was virtually unheard of.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
no point in any pre cu now, swg was doomed to fail , whit jedi as its main center point.
Playing: World of Warcraft.
Played: Lord of the Rings Online, Starwars Galaxies.
Tried: Starwars the Old Republic, Everquest 2, Guild Wars, Vanguard, Age of Conan, Aion.
Not to mention the Ewoks from Hell.
I never got to play pre-NGE myself, and even I'm miffed about it. CU looked like it had promise, so I wasn't upset about it, but making it easy to be a jedi? Once I heard they changed that, along with most of the old system that I was psyched about trying out, they lost another customer that had finally gotten a decent computer (yeah, I'm normally behind the curve on pc performance), no telling how many others. Hell, I've got a few friends that used to play and would be willing if they would start up a classic server, but I suppose it's just wishful thinking.
Good read Linna.
About the NGE story or background. I remember it being mentioned that it was the team behind JTL that was mostly behind the concept, idea and implementation of the NGE. Might have been just a rumour, but it would fit in nicely in time. I have nothing bad to say about JTL since that type of system work very well in space. However as we all know the NGE, which have similarities to the JTL system, was a different story...
I also saw someone mentioning SBD's, Endor and the DWB in this thread. Well here's some more memories from the real SWG. It's a rather large download, but it's worth it
. It's something for both old vet's and for all those unfortunate ones that never experienced the old game.
www.box.net/shared/static/3cpvxsm1mx.avi
The video is of the SDK guild doing the Foreman's quest.
Way into the video, notice when the "camera man" pulls out the window with the 9 HAM stats, BF and wounds (oh memories...). Also I don't know if it's just me, but while watching these old videos and remembering how it was I think the old UI was a lot more clean in some ways. And of course all the old animations and no oversized particle effects that destroys the whole scene.
What's also visible is one of the weak points of the old game. Notice how they are focusing on mind damage. Watch the blue pillar of 4 digit damage numbers above the SBD's /grin. While this didn't really matter in PvE situations like in the vid, it was unfortunally the weak point and the killer in PvP.
Linna --
I don't know if he's still around SWG at all, but you'll want to talk to Brisc if you haven't already done so. As a correspondent he had a lot of interesting backdoor information on the CU. My memory is a little fuzzy, but as I recall, he mentioned the developers weren't interested in the concerns of the correspondents at all, and some of them were becoming absolutely livid.
I had a conversation with him a few days after the NGE went live and I think he said it was over absolutely everyone's head, including the correspondents. He seemed about as dismayed as I did at the time.
I'd been back a few times to poke my head around, talk to some old folks and receive the same response from multiple friends: the game isn't ready yet. "Give it a year."
As far as what the developers were thinking -- my take is that they were thinking ahead of the game. They had a solid vision in mind but executed it both poorly and hastily. The kind of visionary gameplay that they had in mind when they conceived the NGE is visible now in games like Tabula Rasa and Mass Effect -- and it actually works there.
My particular theory is that they were behind on their alpha production schedule when they were forced to release it thanks to the impending Episode III. That would explain why it was released so suddenly and without much ado. It got a live testing cycle straight from an accelerated development cycle. It was crap, they knew it was crap, and it got called crap by both players and review magazines alike. They had few options aside from defending their position and hope to build up from the ground.
- Corbin
-- xpaladin
[MMOz]
AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
Hi Corbin,
Brisc (calls himself DCGuy these days) and I aren't exactly on speaking terms. I know where he hangs (lot of fight, rival, dread, axis etc hang there), if you're interested, i'll PM you the site.
I'm not sure how much of the truth the correspondents were ever told about the technical state of the game. I AM sure, however, the regular staff and correspondents were completely blindsided by the NGE, same as us. Lots of staff left too, after the NGE.
I'm not exactly enthusiastic about TR, I think the game is extremely lacking. Literally couldn't bring myself to log in anymore after 2 months of beta, sick of bane and flimsy story arcs. If that's the future of MMO gaming, then I'll probably quit doing it, although I'll grant you it's what the NGE tried and failed to be. Flimsy as the story arc is, the missions are a lot more intereting than the retarded NGE quests.
Lots of ex-SWG people sighted hovering around Pirates of the Burning Seas, which is much more to my tastes. Ports to conquer! Arr!
Linna
www.phpbb88.com/fated
Heheh. Yeah I'd heard about all their fun times in TDA and whatnot. I was actually a member for about a week (in my WoW days) before I wisely snuck out and disappeared.
One thing I'll note, regarding the quoted piece above, is that games -- especially the massive multiplayers -- are evolutionary monsters. I don't think Planetside, SWG:NGE, and TR are the absolute final renditions of action-based massively multiplayer roleplaying games. They're just more links on the chain to what will ultimately wind up being the WoW of the Action RPG market, not necessarily an end-all-be-all. Luckily, "traditional" MMORPGs are here to stay for a while yet.
-- xpaladin
[MMOz]
AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
Yes the newbs SOE that know nothing of gaming and only cares about there money , well i gave them another chnace on another game called Vanguard and guess what?......... Well they had to go ruin that game for us to ,the stupid ******* SOE with their ******* money grabbing hands, SOE needs to **** of back were they came from and fire themselves and yes i am suspecting this to be deleted becuase people dont like the truth getting out
But Vanguard wasnt SOE's fault. Sigil screwed that one well before SOE. Yes, SOE was the publisher but Sigil was in charge of all game related issues and such.
I was in beta for VG and played for about 3 months after release, from what I hear, SOe has actually helped VG alot in the last couple months. But since it was terrible to begin with, its not hard to say they helped it..
Thalos Vipav
Star Wars Galaxies: R.I.P.
But Vanguard wasnt SOE's fault. Sigil screwed that one well before SOE. Yes, SOE was the publisher but Sigil was in charge of all game related issues and such.
I was in beta for VG and played for about 3 months after release, from what I hear, SOe has actually helped VG alot in the last couple months. But since it was terrible to begin with, its not hard to say they helped it..
But you have to wonder why they took it over when you consider that their reputation preceded it. Surely SOE must have been aware that taking on Vanguard would only hurt their reputation further if they were to fix it while people are playing it.
I remember that during beta Sigil actually had to include a note in their FAQ that SOE was only hosting and not going to be involved in developing at all.
I honored the 2 year anniversary by pulling off an 8 month publicity stunt to draw attention to our cause. Heck, I even got ban ( and I am surprised that I did not get premabanned). I had to watch the NGE from the side lines as I witnessed the CU preview at Celebrations 3. I will never forget so you can still -
Love that Jestor!
Unaware of the Jestor?
http://about.me/JestorRodo/
Friends enjoy his classic Vblog - https://www.facebook.com/GoodOldReliableNathan
But Vanguard wasnt SOE's fault. Sigil screwed that one well before SOE. Yes, SOE was the publisher but Sigil was in charge of all game related issues and such.
I was in beta for VG and played for about 3 months after release, from what I hear, SOe has actually helped VG alot in the last couple months. But since it was terrible to begin with, its not hard to say they helped it..
But you have to wonder why they took it over when you consider that their reputation preceded it. Surely SOE must have been aware that taking on Vanguard would only hurt their reputation further if they were to fix it while people are playing it.
I remember that during beta Sigil actually had to include a note in their FAQ that SOE was only hosting and not going to be involved in developing at all.
I suppose so but those the only two SOE games that were kinda ruined by SOE even if they did'nt controll vanguard but them just being there ruined it for sigil because alot of peeps would not get the game just becuase thye know SOE is a publisher, but my tip for SOE is to keep to first-person shooters thats online like planetside that was their only good game thats not ruined yet and i strain the "yet" very much but apperently they have also ruined games like Everquest