Well, I can say that I quit once before because it felt a little kiddie and was a bit boring for me. I gave it another shot to play a game that many of my friends and co-workers alike have fun playing. The more I play I find that it actually isn't bullshit when people say it's very polished. There are so many things to do in this game.
OP, you are so right in saying that in comparison to other stuff out there. Sure there are some good ones, but the majority do so many things wrong whereas WoW does most of those things right.
I was thrown off by the pvp though because it seemed like:
1. it didn't matter much 2. Classes seemed unbalanced 3. Winning 1v1 in world pvp was about lvl and better gear
I have revamped my view on these. Since the pve is in my view way above what I expected that now I say it's not about what I want in the pvp aspect of a game. It's about how to get good with what is offered. My little personal goal is to never lose any fight. Classes are unbalanced if you let them be. The real challenge is to get good with the class you choose. As for lvl, well...in any game that allows levels and open world pvp is gonna have ganking and such. Gear? Well, in pvp gear is a crutch. Doesn't make you good. Gives an edge but if your not geared you can rely on your fight style to pick up that slack. Ok, so pvp still doesn't matter much and is really only personal. Maybe they could add something to allow you to tally who you have killed name wise and post it on some sort of board.
I hear so many bash BG's also. Why? I don't get it. It's exactly what you find in any shooter. Maybe how they handled it level wise is kinda jacked, but it has wsg for capture the flag, arathi and alterac , eots for point capping like in bf2 and such.
Overall I think it maintains its subs and from what I hear is still gaining numbers because as an all around product it's very good in comparison to what is out there now.
In hindsight, there really haven't been that many good MMO's out ever. For those that say that the pvp is terrible, well on one hand you're right. On the other...in comparison to what exactly, I can probably count on my hand how many good PvP MMo's there have ever been in creation. This genre is still very young. Shit, video gaming is still very young.
I do have high hopes for upcoming games that are pvp focused and are doing it in ways that us as players kinda envisioned it. Maybe it will feel right. Maybe they will be better than what has been offered before. Time will tell.
What makes other MMOs "hard" in comparison. I've played just about everything on the market. Tedious and bogged down in bad mechanics doesn't make a game hard or another game easy mode in comparison.
Everything on the market right now (save for a few niche games) revolves around finding a certain level range of enemies that represent an almost certain percentage of victory in combat. Finding a sequence of skill button mashing to achieve that success and repeat. Hard only comes when you press beyond that comfort zone and try new tactics on higher level creatures or more of the same level creatures at once. All MMOs out right now are the same in difficulty for the most part.
WoW is no easier than any other game on the market right now, save for elimination of much of the tedium.
Imagine WoW where you would have all mobs with +50% damage and +50% health, where one mistake - one bad pull would make a difference between life or death. Where mobs would follow you for 2 minutes til they give up and always slow you down or be faster than you so hit you all the time if you try to run.
Would that make the game harder?
The answer is
Yes It Would!
No it wouldn't because people would just attack lower level mobs. That was his point. So it might be hard at level 1, but then people would just keep killing level 1's over and over until they are a high enough level that level 2 mobs are easy to kill and then start killing them. Rinse and repeat to max level. How is that harder than WoW? Yeah, you could make the XP less, but people would still find a way to make it easier. Rather than going solo, everyone would run in packs of 2 or 3. You haven't made it tougher, you've just forced people to group up. Yea!!! You just lost the majority of players with that single bold move. Part of the reason that WoW appeals to the casual gamer is because he doesn't always have someone to play with. Forced grouping has been tried in other games and they weren't very successful. People didn't see them as harder, just hard core...not the same thing.
And making them chase you further and always catch you and kill you? You mean so that you would NEVER be able to run thru an area with lower level mobs? So you can train 25 mobs into the city with you and vanish so they kill all the lowbies there? Yeah, sounds like fun....NOT. Nope, wouldn't be harder, it would be STUPID.
You want harder? Go into an instance with mobs 5+ levels above you. They'll have +50% health and +50% damage. One bad pull can wipe your party and yes they will follow you all the way to the exit and wait for you to come back too. WoW already has this. If you played the game you would know this.
WAR will be an utter mess nothing more. Probably enjoyable for ex-wow players and a few others.
Why do you feel that WAR will be an "utter mess?" I'm just curious.
At this point, I'd say it's going to be the "next big thing." Why?
Because it's going to be like WoW but hopefully better (better for me) due to the focus on PvP and personal achievement.
I just tend to exaggarate ocassionaly ... a little. Next big thing commercially yeh. But it will have same mass appeal as WoW. It doesn't matter if it's PvP or PvE. Something overhyped and terribly popularized that obviously appeals to mass market will always lack quality. People don't seek quality but instant moments of joy. That's is only my personal opinion, not a fact.
This right here tells you all you need to know about Thillian. If it's popular...he doesn't like it. Nuff said.
WAR will be an utter mess nothing more. Probably enjoyable for ex-wow players and a few others.
Why do you feel that WAR will be an "utter mess?" I'm just curious.
At this point, I'd say it's going to be the "next big thing." Why?
Because it's going to be like WoW but hopefully better (better for me) due to the focus on PvP and personal achievement.
I just tend to exaggarate ocassionaly ... a little. Next big thing commercially yeh. But it will have same mass appeal as WoW. It doesn't matter if it's PvP or PvE. Something overhyped and terribly popularized that obviously appeals to mass market will always lack quality. People don't seek quality but instant moments of joy. That's is only my personal opinion, not a fact.
Ypu do realise Vanguar was hyped even bigger than wow on this site before release, and it was being targeted at all the so called millions of fans that wanted the demise of wow, well guess what it lacked quality and didnt appeal to anyone but 10 thousand probably less than all the Daoc servers put together in a world 100X bigger. Sure did lack quality that overhyped game made for the EQ old schoolers. Wounder why the old school vets never went to play Vanguard?. Beceause even if it wasnt appealing to the masses im sure there were enough people that wanted wow to fail so surely they would have jumped into tis game. But like you say Overhyped games lack quality.
i'm not sure how it maintains a high subscription base because i know for a fact in china they pay for HOURS not for a month, somthing like 10$ for 48hours, so wouldn't that bend it abit? It seems like it would change constantly that way with people playing for a few days or so then month.
2. Has much larger mindshare than other MMOs out. Folks that haven't even heard of Everquest know about WoW.
3. It's easier to get into than most MMOs, the learning curve is handled very nicely.
4. The fact that so many people play it is itself a big advantage. You almost certainly know someone that plays WoW.
5. It's a quality/ polished product. You will have very few "WTF, what the hell are the designers smoking?" moments when you play compared to most MMOs. For example, when I spent 3 hours doing one of my first quests in EQ, only to be rewarded by far less XP and cash then I could have gotten farming rats for 30 mins, that was a "WTF?" moment. WoW doesn't have nearly as many of those.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
All of the other "big" MMOs were deeply flawed in some way(s).
UO's PKs drove off alot of players along with the incredibly bad interface. I've never played a game that was so hard to control and manage. The graphics were pretty laughable too.
EQ had two major problems: it forced grouping because the classes were too weak by themselves. That's not fun. Also the grind and repetitiveness, hell levels and inadequate rewards for questing, grouping and raiding.
And I would like to see the press release from Sony that confirms EQ ever hit 500k subscribers.
My main gripe about WoW is the cartoony look of the graphics. I know it was smart business to make a Disney/Super Mario type of world but something in between Warcraft and Diablo would have been more gratifying to me. My other gripe would be letting level 70s group with level 20s to run an instance. It's killed the low level grouping game. There should be level gap cap for running instances.
No it wouldn't because people would just attack lower level mobs. That was his point. So it might be hard at level 1, but then people would just keep killing level 1's over and over until they are a high enough level that level 2 mobs are easy to kill and then start killing them. Rinse and repeat to max level. How is that harder than WoW? Yeah, you could make the XP less, but people would still find a way to make it easier. Rather than going solo, everyone would run in packs of 2 or 3. You haven't made it tougher, you've just forced people to group up. Yea!!! You just lost the majority of players with that single bold move. Part of the reason that WoW appeals to the casual gamer is because he doesn't always have someone to play with. Forced grouping has been tried in other games and they weren't very successful. People didn't see them as harder, just hard core...not the same thing.
And making them chase you further and always catch you and kill you? You mean so that you would NEVER be able to run thru an area with lower level mobs? So you can train 25 mobs into the city with you and vanish so they kill all the lowbies there? Yeah, sounds like fun....NOT. Nope, wouldn't be harder, it would be STUPID. You want harder? Go into an instance with mobs 5+ levels above you. They'll have +50% health and +50% damage. One bad pull can wipe your party and yes they will follow you all the way to the exit and wait for you to come back too. WoW already has this. If you played the game you would know this.
Lad you are not reading me properly.
Im talking about a system where the most rewarding one (fastest and give best reward) is the one most challenging. In WoW the fastest way to do anything from leveling to farming better loot is very easy. The challenging activities are not rewarding at all. You know how slow is leveling by doing all the instances in 3-4 people that are a bit higher level so they are challenging? Maybe like 20% of the speed of a hunter soloing all the possible solo quests. That are VERY easy.
Why not give players easy way to get to level cap and hard way. Hard way would be faster, but also would require concentration by the player, good knowledge of the mobs he's killing so he can use their weaknesses, and easy way for everyone else that are just learning the system or just doesn't want to get frustrated. I respect people if they don't want to get frustrated by playing the game because of its difficulty.
But I don't understand why the easiest way of doing anything in WoW is also the most rewarding one.
1. Buggy releases. Vanguard and Tabula Rasa are two prime offenders here. TR released 3 months too soon and everyone in the beta knew it. TR may be worth revisiting early next year, but it isn't ready for primetime.
2. Time /played. A game is going to have to be pretty damn solid to get people to just walk away from the game that they have so much time and energy invested in.
3. The things that WoW does better than anyone else. Classic World of Warcraft (levels 1-60, primarily PvE) is one of the best games ever made. (And very excited that the guys behind that content are developing a new game). Blizzard knows polish. There is a lot at endgame to turn a lot of people off, but the core of the game is solid and as polished as they come. LotRO was a great Middle Earth simulator, but it stopped being fun really quickly. The quest designs in the 30s and 40s are hideously tedious and made getting a group that was actually doing the specific part that you needed of the specific area (Dol Dinen was a nighmare of bad design decisions) more trouble than it was worth in the end.
4. WoW is the king of the mountain. It is on top and it isn't going anywhere anytime soon. If WAR ends up with numbers in the general range of WoW, but still decidely second place, it will have to be considered a smashing success. It was the same when EQ was king. DAOC was a success, but never able to topple the king. (On a side note, there is a legitimate concern that EA Mythic can't do what Mythic could have. See Hellgate: London for an example of what ties to EA can do). WoW will go down when the next generation of MMOs arrive. WoW took a lot of the tediousness that kept MMOs from the mainstream away. Its decline will begin when someone makes a game that adheres to what Blizzard does right and tosses out what Blizzard has done wrong. Personally, I have high hopes for Carbine, but their first game is still years away.
It is losing subs in some countries and gaining in others that is how it is maintaining.
Soo... Where is your proof for this?
I love when people just pick "facts" out of thin air to suit their own oppinion.
Fact doesnt exist unless you work for the blizzard account department. There are indications tho. Indications like 20% lower visit of different IP addresses on www.warcraftrealms.com or www.thottbot.com or indications that no new servers were opened this year, in fact Blizzard announced they might be merging low populated ones.
Im talking about a system where the most rewarding one (fastest and give best reward) is the one most challenging. In WoW the fastest way to do anything from leveling to farming better loot is very easy. The challenging activities are not rewarding at all. You know how slow is leveling by doing all the instances in 3-4 people that are a bit higher level so they are challenging? Maybe like 20% of the speed of a hunter soloing all the possible solo quests. That are VERY easy. Why not give players easy way to get to level cap and hard way. Hard way would be faster, but also would require concentration by the player, good knowledge of the mobs he's killing so he can use their weaknesses, and easy way for everyone else that are just learning the system or just doesn't want to get frustrated. I respect people if they don't want to get frustrated by playing the game because of its difficulty. But I don't understand why the easiest way of doing anything in WoW is also the most rewarding one.
Actually if you run instances non-stop you will gain levels faster than soloing and have access to better loot. The problem is.... ITS HARDER. What you want already exsists in nearly every mainstream MMO on the market right. You just can't acknowledge it and seem to think it is some problem unique to WoW. The problem isn't the games, it is the players of the games. The vast majority of players will take the path of least resistance. They have been doing it since UO as far as I can tell. The difference is that WoW is the first game that was designed from the ground up to cater to both hardcore and casual players which is why is it such a success.
I am still waiting to hear what other MMOs out right now are so difficult that it makes WoW easy mode.
(also thottbot went to hell after they sold out to another company and Wowhead is far superior. I haven't been to the other site in forever so no idea.)
It is losing subs in some countries and gaining in others that is how it is maintaining.
Soo... Where is your proof for this?
I love when people just pick "facts" out of thin air to suit their own oppinion.
Fact doesnt exist unless you work for the blizzard account department. There are indications tho. Indications like 20% lower visit of different IP addresses on www.warcraftrealms.com or www.thottbot.com or indications that no new servers were opened this year, in fact Blizzard announced they might be merging low populated ones.
When did EQ2 or DoAC or any other MMO for that mater release servers? WoW has around 230 servers in EU and 250 in US.... thats more than enough to hold the current pop and more.
Can you please post the link to this offical announcement that Blizzard have plans to merg servers?
Some of you have said that WoW is selling in countries other to your own, and that those don't matter. This is a very western-centered, and almost racist view, but wrong - like most arguments the haters come up with.
WoW detractors are fine, but what we get around here goes beyond mere criticism. You haters only provide anecdotes and hyperbole, whereas we loyal defenders of Blizzard (makes cross gesture on chest) use solid evidence and fact.
Destroying the arguments of those who criticize the holiest of holy games is what keeps me going through the day. Bit like shooting fish in a barrel, but oh well, fish give me the creeps... it's the eyes...
Note these sales charts have nothing to do with the far east. I haven't included every month since WoW was released, but Google is your friend. He really is.
Note that WoW, due to it's age, just like other MMOs is a budget title, which obviously helps sales a little. Still sells like hotcakes though, compared to something like LOTRO or Vanguard which isn't on the top 10 charts at all, and hasn't been for a while.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
"even if it is only 500 k active, thats more than any other game has ever had of active subscriptions, by a couple hundred thousand subscriptions."
Someone stated that on page 1 or so. Not true. I was online many years ago (I believe it was in the weeks or months leading up to the DAOC release) when EQ (#1) announced that they set a MMO first and a new personal record of having 500K ACTIVE PLAYERS LOGGED IN TODAY. Not just subscribers, but logged in. It was flashed across all of the servers at the time.
I haven't looked for proof, but I imagine it's out there somewhere.
I can probably reasonably assume to a appropriate level of confidence that WoW has more then 500k active players logged in at any given time.
Well, I should say "at peak hours."
Let's do some funny math..
9.3 million players, so 500k is less then 5% of their population.
Considering the sheer number servers that are at high population and have queues during peak periods...
Yeah, I'd say they have a lot more the 500k active players at once, which does indeed make them still the biggest MMO around.
They announced they had 9 million players.. in what? July? Now they are at 9.3 million? That's 300k more in a few months, that's more then most MMO's have total.
I don't play anymore, who knows if I'll come back when the expansion is released... it depends on if I'm still playing Tabula Rasa by then and when Warhammer is coming out....
but to deny the fact that WoW is #1 and probably #1 for a good reason, is just lunacy.
I gaurantee WoW has more then 500k active players logged in at any given time. Well, I should say "at peak hours." Let's do some funny math.. 9.3 million players, so 500k is less then 5% of their population.
Who for the love of god are you to guarantee things. People that made something and can lose something can guarantee things. But not just random guy from a forum. You lost my attention seconds after your speculation that you even try to guarantee...
Well if you can't trust Vivendi or Blizzard's press statements, then you cant trust anyone elses. If you ignore the fact that the game is still selling more than other MMOs (and most other PC games) in the US, and in Europe, and you still dispute the figures, then you are simply in denial in spite of overwhelming observable evidence.
And posting "reality check" in big letters doesn't have the intended impact, unless your intention is to make fun of yourself.
You don't have to like the game, but why preach to us that this is all lies? Did Blizzard do something to hurt you? I just don't understand the attitude of desperately trying to play down the success of the game. And before you mention it, I am not screaming "omfg look, WoW is teh ownage", simply rebuking the baseless remarks.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
Someone stated that on page 1 or so. Not true. I was online many years ago (I believe it was in the weeks or months leading up to the DAOC release) when EQ (#1) announced that they set a MMO first and a new personal record of having 500K ACTIVE PLAYERS LOGGED IN TODAY. Not just subscribers, but logged in. It was flashed across all of the servers at the time. I haven't looked for proof, but I imagine it's out there somewhere.
June 21, 2001 EverQuest signs 400,000th subscriber.
July 28, 2002 EverQuest hosts a milestone number of simultaneous players. More than 100,000 clerics, half-elves, gnomes, and other fantasy characters created one of the largest assemblies of game players to date.
Everquest never had anywhere near 500k online at one time. They did have roughly that many in total subscribers at one point though.
Keep in mind that Sony was splitting servers due to capacity being filled at around 2000-2200 players (back when they listed total people online which was before DAOC launched like you said). The EQ servers could not possibly handle 500k user load back then.
I gaurantee WoW has more then 500k active players logged in at any given time. Well, I should say "at peak hours." Let's do some funny math.. 9.3 million players, so 500k is less then 5% of their population.
Who for the love of god are you to guarantee things. People that made something and can lose something can guarantee things. But not just random guy from a forum. You lost my attention seconds after your speculation that you even try to guarantee...
I'm Heerobya. My word is fact, obviously. If you read the rest of the post, you'd see that I am a genius.
I guarantee it to be true.
Lighten up please.
But, to please you, I'll edit the post to say "I can probably reasonably assume to a appropriate level of confidence that"
I'm praying for AoC OR WAR to be better, because I've been stuck with WoW for years now. I'm tired of the game, but every time I stray I'm reminded that there's a reason it is still played by millions. The only disdain anyone should have should be toward other developers, who are wasting millions and millions of dollars on games that look and play like trash.
But what you fail to realize is..... that 'you' are part of the problem. Since you (and many others) continue to play and pay for a game that you freely admit you are tired of.... it serves to prop up the image that the way to keep subs is to create yet another game like WOW.
Unless you are willing to let go and cancel... (along with millions of others) developers will never be convinced copying WOW isn't the way to go.
The best mmorpg/virtual drug out there - WOW. The problem? The problem is that haters are obsessed with this game even though the above quoted says "wow free for 12 months" - you're not free - your still trolling wow forums... don't hate - appreciate - or go away - be free... leave us to the best virtual drug out there....
Thillian is very set in his ways and obviously we will all have to agree to disagree. The only fact that no one can debate is that WoW was and currently is the most successful MMO of all time in terms of subscriptions, past, present... total. It has set gaming history. Love it or hate it, it isn't going anywhere and all the hate post in the world won't get people to quit.
To answer the original question... WoW maintains subscriptions because it's fun, maybe not to you, but obviously to most of the civilized world. Look at the fury of activity one post has generated.. the exact reason the game is so popular.
Im talking about a system where the most rewarding one (fastest and give best reward) is the one most challenging. In WoW the fastest way to do anything from leveling to farming better loot is very easy. The challenging activities are not rewarding at all. You know how slow is leveling by doing all the instances in 3-4 people that are a bit higher level so they are challenging? Maybe like 20% of the speed of a hunter soloing all the possible solo quests. That are VERY easy. Why not give players easy way to get to level cap and hard way. Hard way would be faster, but also would require concentration by the player, good knowledge of the mobs he's killing so he can use their weaknesses, and easy way for everyone else that are just learning the system or just doesn't want to get frustrated. I respect people if they don't want to get frustrated by playing the game because of its difficulty. But I don't understand why the easiest way of doing anything in WoW is also the most rewarding one.
It's not possible the way that WoW is designed. WoW is not ONLY a skill based game. At least 1/2 the equation is your characters level, his equipment, how he's specced, so on and so forth, that has nothing to do with how skilled a player you are. What you are wanting is a system that is totally based on skill. The higher skilled player you are, the faster you will gain XP. If WoW was designed that way, many people would not enjoy it. You would, or at least you assume you would because you fancy yourself a skilled player, but anyone who wasn't that skilled would give up on the game because it would simply be too hard for them.
And actually the easiest way of doing things in WoW is NOT the most rewarding. The EASIEST thing to do is to simply sit in one spot and kill the same mobs over and over and over. That is NOT the fastest way to gain XP. Questing is the fastest way to gain XP. Sure, it's fairly easy too, but not easier than just mind numbingly killing mobs over and over and over.
So how do you make it enjoyable for the player who wants a challenge? That's where raid content comes in. Not that raiding is really hard mind you, but it does take a bit more skill than just simply killing mobs one by one and gathering their skins or whatnot. It takes a group effort first off all so that right there makes it a bit tougher to accomplish since you have to rely on others help. Secondly it takes some perserverance because the first attempt is probably gonna go pretty badly until everyone figures out what they need to do and can do it correctly. No, you won't get more XP for this extra effort, but there's still an incentive. The incentive is better loot than can be gained by Questing alone.
So you see there's a balance. A balance between skill and progression and loot. You want progression? Quest. You want loot? Raid. Questing is easy, but you level up faster. Raiding is a bit tougher, but you get better loot. Balance is important. Most games don't get the balance right and that really ruins the game. Have you ever played a game that was really fun but was just too freaking hard? Some people push thru and finish anyway. To them it's a challenge. Many others simply give up and try to find something fun to play instead.
Comments
Well, I can say that I quit once before because it felt a little kiddie and was a bit boring for me. I gave it another shot to play a game that many of my friends and co-workers alike have fun playing. The more I play I find that it actually isn't bullshit when people say it's very polished. There are so many things to do in this game.
OP, you are so right in saying that in comparison to other stuff out there. Sure there are some good ones, but the majority do so many things wrong whereas WoW does most of those things right.
I was thrown off by the pvp though because it seemed like:
1. it didn't matter much
2. Classes seemed unbalanced
3. Winning 1v1 in world pvp was about lvl and better gear
I have revamped my view on these. Since the pve is in my view way above what I expected that now I say it's not about what I want in the pvp aspect of a game. It's about how to get good with what is offered. My little personal goal is to never lose any fight. Classes are unbalanced if you let them be. The real challenge is to get good with the class you choose.
As for lvl, well...in any game that allows levels and open world pvp is gonna have ganking and such. Gear? Well, in pvp gear is a crutch. Doesn't make you good. Gives an edge but if your not geared you can rely on your fight style to pick up that slack.
Ok, so pvp still doesn't matter much and is really only personal. Maybe they could add something to allow you to tally who you have killed name wise and post it on some sort of board.
I hear so many bash BG's also. Why? I don't get it. It's exactly what you find in any shooter. Maybe how they handled it level wise is kinda jacked, but it has wsg for capture the flag, arathi and alterac , eots for point capping like in bf2 and such.
Overall I think it maintains its subs and from what I hear is still gaining numbers because as an all around product it's very good in comparison to what is out there now.
In hindsight, there really haven't been that many good MMO's out ever.
For those that say that the pvp is terrible, well on one hand you're right. On the other...in comparison to what exactly, I can probably count on my hand how many good PvP MMo's there have ever been in creation. This genre is still very young. Shit, video gaming is still very young.
I do have high hopes for upcoming games that are pvp focused and are doing it in ways that us as players kinda envisioned it. Maybe it will feel right. Maybe they will be better than what has been offered before. Time will tell.
Imagine WoW where you would have all mobs with +50% damage and +50% health, where one mistake - one bad pull would make a difference between life or death. Where mobs would follow you for 2 minutes til they give up and always slow you down or be faster than you so hit you all the time if you try to run.Would that make the game harder?
The answer is
Yes It Would!
No it wouldn't because people would just attack lower level mobs. That was his point. So it might be hard at level 1, but then people would just keep killing level 1's over and over until they are a high enough level that level 2 mobs are easy to kill and then start killing them. Rinse and repeat to max level. How is that harder than WoW? Yeah, you could make the XP less, but people would still find a way to make it easier. Rather than going solo, everyone would run in packs of 2 or 3. You haven't made it tougher, you've just forced people to group up. Yea!!! You just lost the majority of players with that single bold move. Part of the reason that WoW appeals to the casual gamer is because he doesn't always have someone to play with. Forced grouping has been tried in other games and they weren't very successful. People didn't see them as harder, just hard core...not the same thing.
And making them chase you further and always catch you and kill you? You mean so that you would NEVER be able to run thru an area with lower level mobs? So you can train 25 mobs into the city with you and vanish so they kill all the lowbies there? Yeah, sounds like fun....NOT. Nope, wouldn't be harder, it would be STUPID.
You want harder? Go into an instance with mobs 5+ levels above you. They'll have +50% health and +50% damage. One bad pull can wipe your party and yes they will follow you all the way to the exit and wait for you to come back too. WoW already has this. If you played the game you would know this.
Why do you feel that WAR will be an "utter mess?" I'm just curious.
At this point, I'd say it's going to be the "next big thing." Why?
Because it's going to be like WoW but hopefully better (better for me) due to the focus on PvP and personal achievement.
I just tend to exaggarate ocassionaly ... a little. Next big thing commercially yeh. But it will have same mass appeal as WoW. It doesn't matter if it's PvP or PvE. Something overhyped and terribly popularized that obviously appeals to mass market will always lack quality. People don't seek quality but instant moments of joy. That's is only my personal opinion, not a fact.
This right here tells you all you need to know about Thillian. If it's popular...he doesn't like it. Nuff said.
Why do you feel that WAR will be an "utter mess?" I'm just curious.
At this point, I'd say it's going to be the "next big thing." Why?
Because it's going to be like WoW but hopefully better (better for me) due to the focus on PvP and personal achievement.
I just tend to exaggarate ocassionaly ... a little. Next big thing commercially yeh. But it will have same mass appeal as WoW. It doesn't matter if it's PvP or PvE. Something overhyped and terribly popularized that obviously appeals to mass market will always lack quality. People don't seek quality but instant moments of joy. That's is only my personal opinion, not a fact.
Ypu do realise Vanguar was hyped even bigger than wow on this site before release, and it was being targeted at all the so called millions of fans that wanted the demise of wow, well guess what it lacked quality and didnt appeal to anyone but 10 thousand probably less than all the Daoc servers put together in a world 100X bigger. Sure did lack quality that overhyped game made for the EQ old schoolers. Wounder why the old school vets never went to play Vanguard?. Beceause even if it wasnt appealing to the masses im sure there were enough people that wanted wow to fail so surely they would have jumped into tis game. But like you say Overhyped games lack quality.
i'm not sure how it maintains a high subscription base because i know for a fact in china they pay for HOURS not for a month, somthing like 10$ for 48hours, so wouldn't that bend it abit? It seems like it would change constantly that way with people playing for a few days or so then month.
I think WoW has a lot of things going for it.
1. Runs well on vitrually and modern system.
2. Has much larger mindshare than other MMOs out. Folks that haven't even heard of Everquest know about WoW.
3. It's easier to get into than most MMOs, the learning curve is handled very nicely.
4. The fact that so many people play it is itself a big advantage. You almost certainly know someone that plays WoW.
5. It's a quality/ polished product. You will have very few "WTF, what the hell are the designers smoking?" moments when you play compared to most MMOs. For example, when I spent 3 hours doing one of my first quests in EQ, only to be rewarded by far less XP and cash then I could have gotten farming rats for 30 mins, that was a "WTF?" moment. WoW doesn't have nearly as many of those.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Shouldn't that read: "WTF, what the hell are the designers NOT smoking?"
8 million chinese/koreans can't be wrong!
It is losing subs in some countries and gaining in others that is how it is maintaining.
All of the other "big" MMOs were deeply flawed in some way(s).
UO's PKs drove off alot of players along with the incredibly bad interface. I've never played a game that was so hard to control and manage. The graphics were pretty laughable too.
EQ had two major problems: it forced grouping because the classes were too weak by themselves. That's not fun. Also the grind and repetitiveness, hell levels and inadequate rewards for questing, grouping and raiding.
And I would like to see the press release from Sony that confirms EQ ever hit 500k subscribers.
My main gripe about WoW is the cartoony look of the graphics. I know it was smart business to make a Disney/Super Mario type of world but something in between Warcraft and Diablo would have been more gratifying to me. My other gripe would be letting level 70s group with level 20s to run an instance. It's killed the low level grouping game. There should be level gap cap for running instances.
My youtube MMO gaming channel
Im talking about a system where the most rewarding one (fastest and give best reward) is the one most challenging. In WoW the fastest way to do anything from leveling to farming better loot is very easy. The challenging activities are not rewarding at all. You know how slow is leveling by doing all the instances in 3-4 people that are a bit higher level so they are challenging? Maybe like 20% of the speed of a hunter soloing all the possible solo quests. That are VERY easy.
Why not give players easy way to get to level cap and hard way. Hard way would be faster, but also would require concentration by the player, good knowledge of the mobs he's killing so he can use their weaknesses, and easy way for everyone else that are just learning the system or just doesn't want to get frustrated. I respect people if they don't want to get frustrated by playing the game because of its difficulty.
But I don't understand why the easiest way of doing anything in WoW is also the most rewarding one.
REALITY CHECK
1. Buggy releases. Vanguard and Tabula Rasa are two prime offenders here. TR released 3 months too soon and everyone in the beta knew it. TR may be worth revisiting early next year, but it isn't ready for primetime.
2. Time /played. A game is going to have to be pretty damn solid to get people to just walk away from the game that they have so much time and energy invested in.
3. The things that WoW does better than anyone else. Classic World of Warcraft (levels 1-60, primarily PvE) is one of the best games ever made. (And very excited that the guys behind that content are developing a new game). Blizzard knows polish. There is a lot at endgame to turn a lot of people off, but the core of the game is solid and as polished as they come. LotRO was a great Middle Earth simulator, but it stopped being fun really quickly. The quest designs in the 30s and 40s are hideously tedious and made getting a group that was actually doing the specific part that you needed of the specific area (Dol Dinen was a nighmare of bad design decisions) more trouble than it was worth in the end.
4. WoW is the king of the mountain. It is on top and it isn't going anywhere anytime soon. If WAR ends up with numbers in the general range of WoW, but still decidely second place, it will have to be considered a smashing success. It was the same when EQ was king. DAOC was a success, but never able to topple the king. (On a side note, there is a legitimate concern that EA Mythic can't do what Mythic could have. See Hellgate: London for an example of what ties to EA can do). WoW will go down when the next generation of MMOs arrive. WoW took a lot of the tediousness that kept MMOs from the mainstream away. Its decline will begin when someone makes a game that adheres to what Blizzard does right and tosses out what Blizzard has done wrong. Personally, I have high hopes for Carbine, but their first game is still years away.
Soo... Where is your proof for this?
I love when people just pick "facts" out of thin air to suit their own oppinion.
Soo... Where is your proof for this?
I love when people just pick "facts" out of thin air to suit their own oppinion.
Fact doesnt exist unless you work for the blizzard account department. There are indications tho. Indications like 20% lower visit of different IP addresses on www.warcraftrealms.com or www.thottbot.com or indications that no new servers were opened this year, in fact Blizzard announced they might be merging low populated ones.
REALITY CHECK
Actually if you run instances non-stop you will gain levels faster than soloing and have access to better loot. The problem is.... ITS HARDER. What you want already exsists in nearly every mainstream MMO on the market right. You just can't acknowledge it and seem to think it is some problem unique to WoW. The problem isn't the games, it is the players of the games. The vast majority of players will take the path of least resistance. They have been doing it since UO as far as I can tell. The difference is that WoW is the first game that was designed from the ground up to cater to both hardcore and casual players which is why is it such a success.
I am still waiting to hear what other MMOs out right now are so difficult that it makes WoW easy mode.
(also thottbot went to hell after they sold out to another company and Wowhead is far superior. I haven't been to the other site in forever so no idea.)
Soo... Where is your proof for this?
I love when people just pick "facts" out of thin air to suit their own oppinion.
Fact doesnt exist unless you work for the blizzard account department. There are indications tho. Indications like 20% lower visit of different IP addresses on www.warcraftrealms.com or www.thottbot.com or indications that no new servers were opened this year, in fact Blizzard announced they might be merging low populated ones.
When did EQ2 or DoAC or any other MMO for that mater release servers? WoW has around 230 servers in EU and 250 in US.... thats more than enough to hold the current pop and more.
Can you please post the link to this offical announcement that Blizzard have plans to merg servers?
Some of you have said that WoW is selling in countries other to your own, and that those don't matter. This is a very western-centered, and almost racist view, but wrong - like most arguments the haters come up with.
WoW detractors are fine, but what we get around here goes beyond mere criticism. You haters only provide anecdotes and hyperbole, whereas we loyal defenders of Blizzard (makes cross gesture on chest) use solid evidence and fact.
Destroying the arguments of those who criticize the holiest of holy games is what keeps me going through the day. Bit like shooting fish in a barrel, but oh well, fish give me the creeps... it's the eyes...
Ahem, where was I? Oh yes.. Proof:
July 2006
July 2007
November 2007
Note these sales charts have nothing to do with the far east. I haven't included every month since WoW was released, but Google is your friend. He really is.
Note that WoW, due to it's age, just like other MMOs is a budget title, which obviously helps sales a little. Still sells like hotcakes though, compared to something like LOTRO or Vanguard which isn't on the top 10 charts at all, and hasn't been for a while.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
"even if it is only 500 k active, thats more than any other game has ever had of active subscriptions, by a couple hundred thousand subscriptions."
Someone stated that on page 1 or so. Not true. I was online many years ago (I believe it was in the weeks or months leading up to the DAOC release) when EQ (#1) announced that they set a MMO first and a new personal record of having 500K ACTIVE PLAYERS LOGGED IN TODAY. Not just subscribers, but logged in. It was flashed across all of the servers at the time.
I haven't looked for proof, but I imagine it's out there somewhere.
I can probably reasonably assume to a appropriate level of confidence that WoW has more then 500k active players logged in at any given time.
Well, I should say "at peak hours."
Let's do some funny math..
9.3 million players, so 500k is less then 5% of their population.
Considering the sheer number servers that are at high population and have queues during peak periods...
Yeah, I'd say they have a lot more the 500k active players at once, which does indeed make them still the biggest MMO around.
They announced they had 9 million players.. in what? July? Now they are at 9.3 million? That's 300k more in a few months, that's more then most MMO's have total.
I don't play anymore, who knows if I'll come back when the expansion is released... it depends on if I'm still playing Tabula Rasa by then and when Warhammer is coming out....
but to deny the fact that WoW is #1 and probably #1 for a good reason, is just lunacy.
Who for the love of god are you to guarantee things. People that made something and can lose something can guarantee things. But not just random guy from a forum. You lost my attention seconds after your speculation that you even try to guarantee...
REALITY CHECK
Well if you can't trust Vivendi or Blizzard's press statements, then you cant trust anyone elses. If you ignore the fact that the game is still selling more than other MMOs (and most other PC games) in the US, and in Europe, and you still dispute the figures, then you are simply in denial in spite of overwhelming observable evidence.
And posting "reality check" in big letters doesn't have the intended impact, unless your intention is to make fun of yourself.
You don't have to like the game, but why preach to us that this is all lies? Did Blizzard do something to hurt you? I just don't understand the attitude of desperately trying to play down the success of the game. And before you mention it, I am not screaming "omfg look, WoW is teh ownage", simply rebuking the baseless remarks.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
June 21, 2001 EverQuest signs 400,000th subscriber.
July 28, 2002 EverQuest hosts a milestone number of simultaneous players. More than 100,000 clerics, half-elves, gnomes, and other fantasy characters created one of the largest assemblies of game players to date.
www.gamershell.com/infosheets/219023.html
Everquest never had anywhere near 500k online at one time. They did have roughly that many in total subscribers at one point though.
Keep in mind that Sony was splitting servers due to capacity being filled at around 2000-2200 players (back when they listed total people online which was before DAOC launched like you said). The EQ servers could not possibly handle 500k user load back then.
Who for the love of god are you to guarantee things. People that made something and can lose something can guarantee things. But not just random guy from a forum. You lost my attention seconds after your speculation that you even try to guarantee...
I'm Heerobya. My word is fact, obviously. If you read the rest of the post, you'd see that I am a genius.
I guarantee it to be true.
Lighten up please.
But, to please you, I'll edit the post to say "I can probably reasonably assume to a appropriate level of confidence that"
But what you fail to realize is..... that 'you' are part of the problem. Since you (and many others) continue to play and pay for a game that you freely admit you are tired of.... it serves to prop up the image that the way to keep subs is to create yet another game like WOW.
Unless you are willing to let go and cancel... (along with millions of others) developers will never be convinced copying WOW isn't the way to go.
The best mmorpg/virtual drug out there - WOW. The problem? The problem is that haters are obsessed with this game even though the above quoted says "wow free for 12 months" - you're not free - your still trolling wow forums... don't hate - appreciate - or go away - be free... leave us to the best virtual drug out there....
Thillian is very set in his ways and obviously we will all have to agree to disagree. The only fact that no one can debate is that WoW was and currently is the most successful MMO of all time in terms of subscriptions, past, present... total. It has set gaming history. Love it or hate it, it isn't going anywhere and all the hate post in the world won't get people to quit.
To answer the original question... WoW maintains subscriptions because it's fun, maybe not to you, but obviously to most of the civilized world. Look at the fury of activity one post has generated.. the exact reason the game is so popular.
And actually the easiest way of doing things in WoW is NOT the most rewarding. The EASIEST thing to do is to simply sit in one spot and kill the same mobs over and over and over. That is NOT the fastest way to gain XP. Questing is the fastest way to gain XP. Sure, it's fairly easy too, but not easier than just mind numbingly killing mobs over and over and over.
So how do you make it enjoyable for the player who wants a challenge? That's where raid content comes in. Not that raiding is really hard mind you, but it does take a bit more skill than just simply killing mobs one by one and gathering their skins or whatnot. It takes a group effort first off all so that right there makes it a bit tougher to accomplish since you have to rely on others help. Secondly it takes some perserverance because the first attempt is probably gonna go pretty badly until everyone figures out what they need to do and can do it correctly. No, you won't get more XP for this extra effort, but there's still an incentive. The incentive is better loot than can be gained by Questing alone.
So you see there's a balance. A balance between skill and progression and loot. You want progression? Quest. You want loot? Raid. Questing is easy, but you level up faster. Raiding is a bit tougher, but you get better loot. Balance is important. Most games don't get the balance right and that really ruins the game. Have you ever played a game that was really fun but was just too freaking hard? Some people push thru and finish anyway. To them it's a challenge. Many others simply give up and try to find something fun to play instead.