People need to remember: just because a company wasnt sued for breaking consumer protection laws doesnt mean the law wasnt broken. Im hearing a lot of "They didnt get sued so they didnt do anything (legally) wrong" faulty logic here. The case was basically settled out of court with SOE paying out compensation in the form of refunds.
1. So what you're saying is, that now in the United States, people not only don't have to be convicted...but they don't even have to have charges filed...for them to be guilty??? Why, because a bunch of MMO forum wannabes decided it???
2. THERE WAS NO CASE TO BE SETTLED OUT OF COURT.
Out of court settlements STILL have a court filing, and the settlement simply precedes the judge/jury decision in the case.
Even if SOE was simply responding to nerd rage on the forum and therefore decided to give refunds, that is far from an "out of court settlement"
De facto (not de jure) this was a pre-emptive resolution of potential litigation. SOE abandoned its "no returns, no refunds" policy on expansions by offering refunds on ToOW.
They did this because they were told they had massive exposure, and they opted to avoid testing the theory that they'd be soon inundated with lawsuits which would inevitably be merged into a very embarassing and almost certain to be lost class action matter.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
De facto (not de jure) this was a pre-emptive resolution of potential litigation. SOE abandoned its "no returns, no refunds" policy on expansions by offering refunds on ToOW.
They did this because they were told they had massive exposure, and they opted to avoid testing the theory that they'd be soon inundated with lawsuits which would inevitably be merged into a very embarassing and almost certain to be lost class action matter.
Unless you were privy to meetings with SOE and it's legal department...which you weren't...because you're not even using the expression "de facto" in a sentence properly...that is purely speculation.
The only people you know "told them" that they had "massive exposure" were a bunch of forum posters in the heat of nerd rage. As to the "almost certain to be lost" class action suit, if that was the case one would have been taken up by an attorney and filed...and none was...ever. In fact, only a tiny portion of the SWG playerbase even filed BBB complaints, and none filed a complaint with the AG's office of California.
I just think it's time for everyone to get over it now, SWG was only a game and shit happens, nothing lasts forever. Theres much more important things out there anyways like seeing the world.
On the contrary, I think it's time for you to understand that you are part of a dwindling yet increasingly frantic band of fanbois caught between thousands of angry Vets on one side and KOTOR ONline on the other. If you don't like Vets decrying the changes that ruined the game then you would be best advised not to post in a forum called 'Veteran Refuge'.
Reading comprehension much? Thats why I said "basically". Yes an official out-of-court settlement would require a case be filed, but compensating the plaintiff before the case is filed to prevent the case going forward is the same thing. You can split hairs all you like but the actions are the same even if the lack of paperwork leaves a technical loophole through which it cant technically be called a settlement in the legislative sense.
As for guilt no one said they were guilty.. guilt or innocence is for a jury to decide but the facts of their actions compared with law shows the law to have been broken. Reality and truth doesnt care about the decisions of juries. Being found not guilty of a crime you are guilty of doesnt change history.
Seriously...quit using words you don't understand. You can't compensate a plaintiff before a case is ever filed, because there IS NO PLAINTIFF IF THERE'S NO CASE. You can't settle a case out of court if there is no court case. There's nothing "technical" about it...THERE WERE NO LAWSUITS...THERE WERE NO PLAINTIFFS...THERE WAS NO OUT OF COURT SETTLEMENT. Adding "basically" doesn't make something false into something true.
Like if I were to say "basically, you're a genius"...it would still be a ridiculous statement.
As to no one saying they were guilty, this entire debate started because someone STATED that they committed the crime of Wire Fraud...a felony.
Oops my bad.. I meant potential plaintiff. There.
By the way its never a good idea to base your debate defense strategy on wording technicalities all it does is annoy people and makes your case look weak.
1/. Just because there was no court action for a 'bait and switch' civil case does not mean that SOE did not 'bait and switch' the product it provided to siubscribers. It simply means that no action was brought against SOE - and that could mean that SOE settled out of court with aggrieved customers who did raise such a complaint.
2/. Could you confirm that you don't work for SOE? Your keyboard arrogance and condescension are very much in their house style.
1. You can't settle out of court when there is no court involvement. There was never a lawsuit filed...ever...period. There was no lawsuit filed because there was no lawyer who believed there to be a case. A bunch of keyboard commandos who think they understand consumer protection statutes does not a class action lawsuit make. You really need to learn what Bait and Switch means, because it doesn't apply here.
2. No, I do not work for SOE.
the NGE violated absolutely zero consumer protection laws, get over it. You never purchased a product that came with a guarantee that gameplay wouldn't change, and in fact purchased a product that stated exactly the opposite. Because of the subscription nature of the game, you had the option to cancel that subscription if you were unhappy with the changes. The refunds were more than likely given simply out of an attempt to retain consumer goodwill...not protection from any imagined lawsuits...which were never, ever realized.
I challenge anyone, anywhere to point me to a single news article or court filing that talks about any lawsuit with any merit whatsoever...because there isn't one. There's just a bunch of MMO crybabies filling forums with jargon they don't understand and making shallow, baseless threats.
"The third expansion, Trials Of Obi-Wan(ToOW), once again introduced new quest and content and the planet Mustafar. However, two weeks later a new system called NGE was introduced, which forever changed the play style of SWG and removed some of the content that was included with ToOW.["
"Expansion refund
The Trials of Obi-Wan expansion met with controversy as, two days after the expansion was released, the development team announced the NGE. Many players objected that they would not have purchased the expansion if they had known in advance about the NGE. Sony Online Entertainment eventually offered a refund to players who had purchased the expansion prior to the NGE.[52] Some subscribers threatened a class-action lawsuit but eventually gave up once they learned it had no legal basis and since SOE was going to offer refunds."
Just posting, Personally I would've thrown a fit if they didn't refund my money, because seriously, they removed quite a bit of content from the game when they brought in the NGE, including weapons and armor, which became useless on my BH. We can't really say what would have happened had refunds not been addressed, there may have been an increased push for a lawsuit. Personally I don't care, but if you look at the amount of people here that still complain about the NGE, think about how much worse it would have been had they not gotten their money back? Now think about that being addressed directly towards SOE and a lawsuit. Nomatter if it was founded or unfounded, something would eventually give.
Regardless, I hate the NGE too, I love what the game used to be. Sadly theres nothing I can do, really. I can just keep looking at the boards. http://www.swgemu.com/ and play whatever comes out in the mean time.
Unless you were privy to meetings with SOE and it's legal department...which you weren't...because you're not even using the expression "de facto" in a sentence properly...that is purely speculation.
Am I the only one who finds it ironic hes decrying your use of speculation in the same sentence hes purporting his speculation of your lack of credentials and knowledge as fact?
Unless you were privy to meetings with SOE and it's legal department...which you weren't...because you're not even using the expression "de facto" in a sentence properly...that is purely speculation.
Am I the only one who finds it ironic hes decrying your use of speculation in the same sentence hes purporting his speculation of your lack of credentials and knowledge as fact?
I'm not speculating about anything. I'm stating quite clearly that since SOE was never accused or convicted of "bait and switch", wire fraud, or any of the other outrageous accusations here by anyone outside an MMO forum, there's no substance to those accusations.
I'm also stating that the EULA, which as it stands is a binding agreement if for no other reason than simple lack of challenge, and the disclaimers there in (and elsewhere on the product) about the potential for changing game play, SOE did not breach any contracts, nor did they engage in any false advertising.
Those aren't guesses or speculation...those are facts.
Now, IF someone had actually gotten a lawyer who believed they had a case and IF they had filed a lawsuit and IF they had won...then maybe we'd be having another conversation.
on the other hand, IF my aunt had a dick, she'd be my uncle.
Now, IF someone had actually gotten a lawyer who believed they had a case and IF they had filed a lawsuit and IF they had won...then maybe we'd be having another conversation.
on the other hand, IF my aunt had a dick, she'd be my uncle.
You're wrong on both counts. If there wasn't a lawsuit but money was paid back to customers over a wrong doing then there would be no need for a lawsuit. It's called deference. They knew they did something wrong as soon as the thing went live, and didn't want to go through the problems that filing a lawsuit would cause. There were news articles and TV spots about this issue, SOE was getting enough "bad" publicity.
Secondly, if your aunt had a dick she'd be a Hermaphrodite.
De facto (not de jure) this was a pre-emptive resolution of potential litigation. SOE abandoned its "no returns, no refunds" policy on expansions by offering refunds on ToOW.
They did this because they were told they had massive exposure, and they opted to avoid testing the theory that they'd be soon inundated with lawsuits which would inevitably be merged into a very embarassing and almost certain to be lost class action matter.
Unless you were privy to meetings with SOE and it's legal department...which you weren't...because you're not even using the expression "de facto" in a sentence properly...that is purely speculation.
The only people you know "told them" that they had "massive exposure" were a bunch of forum posters in the heat of nerd rage. As to the "almost certain to be lost" class action suit, if that was the case one would have been taken up by an attorney and filed...and none was...ever. In fact, only a tiny portion of the SWG playerbase even filed BBB complaints, and none filed a complaint with the AG's office of California.
How damn literal do you have to be? How obtuse to you have to be?
It's obvious that SOE reversed its long standing policy of "no returns, no refunds" on expansions not because they did it out of the goodness of their hearts, but because they were told in no uncertain terms that they had exposure.
Note that this was a one time exception to that policy to address a particular set of circumstances.
This is powerful circumstantial evidence that SOE caved because their lawyers told them that to not cave was worse.
This is painfully obvious knowing all we know about SOE's attitude on policies like this. They wouldn't change policy for any reason other than it could have a dramatically bad PR or bottom line impact.
You don't need to be privy to the meetings to come to this conclusion.
They preempted any chance of litigation by cutting their losses before outraged consumers had the opportunity to act.
Thus there was no litigation. Problem solved!
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Unless you were privy to meetings with SOE and it's legal department...which you weren't...because you're not even using the expression "de facto" in a sentence properly...that is purely speculation.
Am I the only one who finds it ironic hes decrying your use of speculation in the same sentence hes purporting his speculation of your lack of credentials and knowledge as fact?
I'm not speculating about anything. I'm stating quite clearly that since SOE was never accused or convicted of "bait and switch", wire fraud, or any of the other outrageous accusations here by anyone outside an MMO forum, there's no substance to those accusations.
I'm also stating that the EULA, which as it stands is a binding agreement if for no other reason than simple lack of challenge, and the disclaimers there in (and elsewhere on the product) about the potential for changing game play, SOE did not breach any contracts, nor did they engage in any false advertising.
Those aren't guesses or speculation...those are facts.
Now, IF someone had actually gotten a lawyer who believed they had a case and IF they had filed a lawsuit and IF they had won...then maybe we'd be having another conversation.
on the other hand, IF my aunt had a dick, she'd be my uncle.
So since they weren't "accused and convicted" it never happened?
As far as the legislative record goes.. yes nothing in the world happens except for those events upon which charges are brought.
But we're not "the legal system" were a fscking lynch mob.. get with the program or get trampled.
$OE decided with this offer for refunds to practically give away an expansion for free. So answer me that:
was the expansion worthless ?
or was something $OE had in mind ? i mean if the give an expansion for free they can offer free classic servers with easy lolol lol $OE
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
lawsuit case or not doesn't matter . $OE decided with this offer for refunds to practically give away an expansion for free. So answer me that: was the expansion worthless ? or was something $OE had in mind ? i mean if the give an expansion for free they can offer classic servers with easy lolol lol $OE
Well, at the time (two years ago) they were not giving away ToOW for free by any stretch of the imagination.
If you asked for a refund, you lost the expansion. Your ability to travel to Mustafar went away, around Thanksgiving of 2005 as a matter of fact in my case.
I did get to keep the "preorder" gift, though...the desert skiff. Furthermore, my one toon that had beyond the three vehicle limit still has five vehicles, although I can't add a sixth to my datapad because Mustafar is turned off.
The intention of a lawsuit would have been to force refunds for bait and switch actions. By refunding ToOW, (and reversing longstanding SOE policy on expansion returns and refunds) that was made moot.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
You don't get it. Much of the outrage was selling a product, then wildly altering it only days after it was sold, destroying much of its value. It was "bait and switch", and that's the basis for any legal action that might have been pursued. This is a consumer rights issue, and those who deliberately cast it otherwise are being disingenous at worst, or incredibly ignorant at best.
LOL...no...YOU don't get it.
Let's just give you one HUGE assumption for your argument, which would be that selling the expansion prior to the NGE was bait and switch (which I don't believe it to be).
Guess what...THEY GAVE YOU YOUR MONEY BACK....TWO YEARS AGO...WITHOUT YOU EVEN HAVING TO SUE FOR IT...WITHIN DAYS OF YOU SPENDING IT.
Right there it puts an end to any "consumer rights issue"...NO ONE LOST A SINGLE PENNY.
The only thing people "lost" was the time they spent glued to a monitor guzzling red bull to build up their imaginary pixels in a video game...which they got to enjoy all that time for the subscription price they paid.
But we're not "the legal system" were a fscking lynch mob.. get with the program or get trampled.
yep, that's exactly the point.
Not to mention, a bunch of people holding a serious grudge...over a video game...two years later.
say that slowly to yourselves...
and the desire to get 15$ from every Star Wars fan and MMO gamer 2 years after the mess and the dumped down NGE crap is a joke then ..right ?
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
P.S. if it helps you to justify your nerd rage over your character being nerfed 2 years ago...which is really what this is...by proclaiming yourself the Ralph Nader of the MMO world and advocating consumer protection...go for it.
Please don't think anyone is really buying it though.
and the desire to get 15$ from every Star Wars fan and MMO gamer 2 years after the mess and the dumped down NGE crap is a joke then ..right ?
I could care less if people play the new SWG or don't, quite frankly. When I stopped liking the game, I stopped playing it..that was it...no big outcry that the world as I know it has been destroyed. I'd love for a new SW MMO to come out, which the Bioware news is the only reason I stopped in here, but now I'm simply entertained by the whole thing.
P.S. if it helps you to justify your nerd rage over your character being nerfed 2 years ago...which is really what this is...by proclaiming yourself the Ralph Nader of the MMO world and advocating consumer protection...go for it. Please don't think anyone is really buying it though.
If you ordered a Corvette from GM with the performance package and the Bose stereo, paid for it in full, and then they delivered a Corvette without the performance package and with the low end Delco stereo, but told you that you could not return it or get a refund for the items you had contracted for but did not receive, what would you do?
Just roll over and show your belly?
Dismissing a real economic tort as "nerd rage" indicates that you ARE either disingenous or ignorant.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Guess what...THEY GAVE YOU YOUR MONEY BACK....TWO YEARS AGO...WITHOUT YOU EVEN HAVING TO SUE FOR IT...WITHIN DAYS OF YOU SPENDING IT.
Yes they did.. but not everyone is so forgiving simply because they apologized.. oh wait they didn't.. they grudgingly gave us our money back so we wouldn't sue them.. they fully intended to try to get away with defrauding their own customers.
P.S. if it helps you to justify your nerd rage over your character being nerfed 2 years ago...which is really what this is...by proclaiming yourself the Ralph Nader of the MMO world and advocating consumer protection...go for it. Please don't think anyone is really buying it though.
If you ordered a Corvette from GM with the performance package and the Bose stereo, paid for it in full, and then they delivered a Corvette without the performance package and with the low end Delco stereo, but told you that you could not return it or get a refund for the items you had contracted for but did not receive, what would you do?
Just roll over and show your belly?
Dismissing a real economic tort as "nerd rage" indicates that you ARE either disingenous or ignorant.
LOL! That's not remotely what happened though, now is it???
They told you that you COULD return it and get a refund. Get it?????
What else do you think you're entitled a refund for other than the expansion? The game you probably milked a minimum of 500 gaming hours out of??? The subscription fee that probably boiled down to a quarter an hour at most for months of enjoyment???
There is no real economic tort...it is simply nerd rage...at it's finest. BTW, you also clearly don't understand what an economic tort is either.
Unless you were playing SWG as a trade or business.
and the desire to get 15$ from every Star Wars fan and MMO gamer 2 years after the mess and the dumped down NGE crap is a joke then ..right ?
I could care less if people play the new SWG or don't, quite frankly. When I stopped liking the game, I stopped playing it..that was it...no big outcry that the world as I know it has been destroyed. I'd love for a new SW MMO to come out, which the Bioware news is the only reason I stopped in here, but now I'm simply entertained by the whole thing.
EDIT: oh, and off work for the Holiday week LOL!
who am i to say something over other people opinions desires,needs but seems to me if i understand you right you lost nothing back then..ok..np with that ..but what makes you judge what other people feel and think about loss of something they value ?
PS: bet for many people is write posts in forums pure nerdiness too , would it make you a nerd ?
BTW it was totally superfloous to changea game that kept going like SWG did PRE CU , was totally "amused" about that greedy behaviour the company showed towards his customers , really sorry that me as victim open my mouth here about what i experienced,
butyou know what i am very amused about the success $OE had with they way "of apply changes they saw fit".
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Yes they did.. but not everyone is so forgiving simply because they apologized.. oh wait they didn't.. they grudgingly gave us our money back so we wouldn't sue them.. they fully intended to try to get away with defrauding their own customers.
which is why this isn't a consumer protection issue, and simply nerd rage going strong after 2 years. It's people holding a grudge, who actually lost absolutely nothing.
BTW, it's more than a little amusing to me that a company who clearly provided you with more enjoyment than you've ever had in life (judging by the rage you're still carrying around 2 years later) for what, like 2 years...for next to no cost...becomes the anti-christ and a borderline criminal organization because they changed the game in a way they saw fit.
Why don't you just say "hey...thanks for the incredibly inexpensive fun you provided me...and good luck with your new thing".
Comments
1. So what you're saying is, that now in the United States, people not only don't have to be convicted...but they don't even have to have charges filed...for them to be guilty??? Why, because a bunch of MMO forum wannabes decided it???
2. THERE WAS NO CASE TO BE SETTLED OUT OF COURT.
Out of court settlements STILL have a court filing, and the settlement simply precedes the judge/jury decision in the case.
Even if SOE was simply responding to nerd rage on the forum and therefore decided to give refunds, that is far from an "out of court settlement"
De facto (not de jure) this was a pre-emptive resolution of potential litigation. SOE abandoned its "no returns, no refunds" policy on expansions by offering refunds on ToOW.
They did this because they were told they had massive exposure, and they opted to avoid testing the theory that they'd be soon inundated with lawsuits which would inevitably be merged into a very embarassing and almost certain to be lost class action matter.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Unless you were privy to meetings with SOE and it's legal department...which you weren't...because you're not even using the expression "de facto" in a sentence properly...that is purely speculation.
The only people you know "told them" that they had "massive exposure" were a bunch of forum posters in the heat of nerd rage. As to the "almost certain to be lost" class action suit, if that was the case one would have been taken up by an attorney and filed...and none was...ever. In fact, only a tiny portion of the SWG playerbase even filed BBB complaints, and none filed a complaint with the AG's office of California.
On the contrary, I think it's time for you to understand that you are part of a dwindling yet increasingly frantic band of fanbois caught between thousands of angry Vets on one side and KOTOR ONline on the other. If you don't like Vets decrying the changes that ruined the game then you would be best advised not to post in a forum called 'Veteran Refuge'.
/agreed too
Seriously...quit using words you don't understand. You can't compensate a plaintiff before a case is ever filed, because there IS NO PLAINTIFF IF THERE'S NO CASE. You can't settle a case out of court if there is no court case. There's nothing "technical" about it...THERE WERE NO LAWSUITS...THERE WERE NO PLAINTIFFS...THERE WAS NO OUT OF COURT SETTLEMENT. Adding "basically" doesn't make something false into something true.
Like if I were to say "basically, you're a genius"...it would still be a ridiculous statement.
As to no one saying they were guilty, this entire debate started because someone STATED that they committed the crime of Wire Fraud...a felony.
Oops my bad.. I meant potential plaintiff. There.
By the way its never a good idea to base your debate defense strategy on wording technicalities all it does is annoy people and makes your case look weak.
1. You can't settle out of court when there is no court involvement. There was never a lawsuit filed...ever...period. There was no lawsuit filed because there was no lawyer who believed there to be a case. A bunch of keyboard commandos who think they understand consumer protection statutes does not a class action lawsuit make. You really need to learn what Bait and Switch means, because it doesn't apply here.
2. No, I do not work for SOE.
the NGE violated absolutely zero consumer protection laws, get over it. You never purchased a product that came with a guarantee that gameplay wouldn't change, and in fact purchased a product that stated exactly the opposite. Because of the subscription nature of the game, you had the option to cancel that subscription if you were unhappy with the changes. The refunds were more than likely given simply out of an attempt to retain consumer goodwill...not protection from any imagined lawsuits...which were never, ever realized.
I challenge anyone, anywhere to point me to a single news article or court filing that talks about any lawsuit with any merit whatsoever...because there isn't one. There's just a bunch of MMO crybabies filling forums with jargon they don't understand and making shallow, baseless threats.
"The third expansion, Trials Of Obi-Wan(ToOW), once again introduced new quest and content and the planet Mustafar. However, two weeks later a new system called NGE was introduced, which forever changed the play style of SWG and removed some of the content that was included with ToOW.["
"Expansion refund
The Trials of Obi-Wan expansion met with controversy as, two days after the expansion was released, the development team announced the NGE. Many players objected that they would not have purchased the expansion if they had known in advance about the NGE. Sony Online Entertainment eventually offered a refund to players who had purchased the expansion prior to the NGE.[52] Some subscribers threatened a class-action lawsuit but eventually gave up once they learned it had no legal basis and since SOE was going to offer refunds."
Just posting, Personally I would've thrown a fit if they didn't refund my money, because seriously, they removed quite a bit of content from the game when they brought in the NGE, including weapons and armor, which became useless on my BH. We can't really say what would have happened had refunds not been addressed, there may have been an increased push for a lawsuit. Personally I don't care, but if you look at the amount of people here that still complain about the NGE, think about how much worse it would have been had they not gotten their money back? Now think about that being addressed directly towards SOE and a lawsuit. Nomatter if it was founded or unfounded, something would eventually give.
Regardless, I hate the NGE too, I love what the game used to be. Sadly theres nothing I can do, really. I can just keep looking at the boards. http://www.swgemu.com/ and play whatever comes out in the mean time.
yes, you're right...instead I should focus on sweeping ethical generalizations like:
"Reality and truth doesnt care about the decisions of juries. Being found not guilty of a crime you are guilty of doesnt change history."
Am I the only one who finds it ironic hes decrying your use of speculation in the same sentence hes purporting his speculation of your lack of credentials and knowledge as fact?
Am I the only one who finds it ironic hes decrying your use of speculation in the same sentence hes purporting his speculation of your lack of credentials and knowledge as fact?
I'm not speculating about anything. I'm stating quite clearly that since SOE was never accused or convicted of "bait and switch", wire fraud, or any of the other outrageous accusations here by anyone outside an MMO forum, there's no substance to those accusations.
I'm also stating that the EULA, which as it stands is a binding agreement if for no other reason than simple lack of challenge, and the disclaimers there in (and elsewhere on the product) about the potential for changing game play, SOE did not breach any contracts, nor did they engage in any false advertising.
Those aren't guesses or speculation...those are facts.
Now, IF someone had actually gotten a lawyer who believed they had a case and IF they had filed a lawsuit and IF they had won...then maybe we'd be having another conversation.
on the other hand, IF my aunt had a dick, she'd be my uncle.
Secondly, if your aunt had a dick she'd be a Hermaphrodite.
Unless you were privy to meetings with SOE and it's legal department...which you weren't...because you're not even using the expression "de facto" in a sentence properly...that is purely speculation.
The only people you know "told them" that they had "massive exposure" were a bunch of forum posters in the heat of nerd rage. As to the "almost certain to be lost" class action suit, if that was the case one would have been taken up by an attorney and filed...and none was...ever. In fact, only a tiny portion of the SWG playerbase even filed BBB complaints, and none filed a complaint with the AG's office of California.
How damn literal do you have to be? How obtuse to you have to be?
It's obvious that SOE reversed its long standing policy of "no returns, no refunds" on expansions not because they did it out of the goodness of their hearts, but because they were told in no uncertain terms that they had exposure.
Note that this was a one time exception to that policy to address a particular set of circumstances.
This is powerful circumstantial evidence that SOE caved because their lawyers told them that to not cave was worse.
This is painfully obvious knowing all we know about SOE's attitude on policies like this. They wouldn't change policy for any reason other than it could have a dramatically bad PR or bottom line impact.
You don't need to be privy to the meetings to come to this conclusion.
They preempted any chance of litigation by cutting their losses before outraged consumers had the opportunity to act.
Thus there was no litigation. Problem solved!
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Am I the only one who finds it ironic hes decrying your use of speculation in the same sentence hes purporting his speculation of your lack of credentials and knowledge as fact?
I'm not speculating about anything. I'm stating quite clearly that since SOE was never accused or convicted of "bait and switch", wire fraud, or any of the other outrageous accusations here by anyone outside an MMO forum, there's no substance to those accusations.
I'm also stating that the EULA, which as it stands is a binding agreement if for no other reason than simple lack of challenge, and the disclaimers there in (and elsewhere on the product) about the potential for changing game play, SOE did not breach any contracts, nor did they engage in any false advertising.
Those aren't guesses or speculation...those are facts.
Now, IF someone had actually gotten a lawyer who believed they had a case and IF they had filed a lawsuit and IF they had won...then maybe we'd be having another conversation.
on the other hand, IF my aunt had a dick, she'd be my uncle.
So since they weren't "accused and convicted" it never happened?As far as the legislative record goes.. yes nothing in the world happens except for those events upon which charges are brought.
But we're not "the legal system" were a fscking lynch mob.. get with the program or get trampled.
lawsuit case or not doesn't matter .
$OE decided with this offer for refunds to practically give away an expansion for free. So answer me that:
was the expansion worthless ?
or was something $OE had in mind ? i mean if the give an expansion for free they can offer free classic servers with easy lolol lol $OE
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
yep, that's exactly the point.
Not to mention, a bunch of people holding a serious grudge...over a video game...two years later.
say that slowly to yourselves...
Well, at the time (two years ago) they were not giving away ToOW for free by any stretch of the imagination.
If you asked for a refund, you lost the expansion. Your ability to travel to Mustafar went away, around Thanksgiving of 2005 as a matter of fact in my case.
I did get to keep the "preorder" gift, though...the desert skiff. Furthermore, my one toon that had beyond the three vehicle limit still has five vehicles, although I can't add a sixth to my datapad because Mustafar is turned off.
The intention of a lawsuit would have been to force refunds for bait and switch actions. By refunding ToOW, (and reversing longstanding SOE policy on expansion returns and refunds) that was made moot.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
yep, that's exactly the point.
Not to mention, a bunch of people holding a serious grudge...over a video game...two years later.
say that slowly to yourselves...
You don't get it. Much of the outrage was selling a product, then wildly altering it only days after it was sold, destroying much of its value.
It was "bait and switch", and that's the basis for any legal action that might have been pursued.
This is a consumer rights issue, and those who deliberately cast it otherwise are being disingenous at worst, or incredibly ignorant at best.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
yep, that's exactly the point.
Not to mention, a bunch of people holding a serious grudge...over a video game...two years later.
say that slowly to yourselves...
And your holding a serious grudge... against players of a video game...two years later.
wtf is wrong with you? sick in the head or something?
LOL...no...YOU don't get it.
Let's just give you one HUGE assumption for your argument, which would be that selling the expansion prior to the NGE was bait and switch (which I don't believe it to be).
Guess what...THEY GAVE YOU YOUR MONEY BACK....TWO YEARS AGO...WITHOUT YOU EVEN HAVING TO SUE FOR IT...WITHIN DAYS OF YOU SPENDING IT.
Right there it puts an end to any "consumer rights issue"...NO ONE LOST A SINGLE PENNY.
The only thing people "lost" was the time they spent glued to a monitor guzzling red bull to build up their imaginary pixels in a video game...which they got to enjoy all that time for the subscription price they paid.
yep, that's exactly the point.
Not to mention, a bunch of people holding a serious grudge...over a video game...two years later.
say that slowly to yourselves...
and the desire to get 15$ from every Star Wars fan and MMO gamer 2 years after the mess and the dumped down NGE crap is a joke then ..right ?
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
P.S. if it helps you to justify your nerd rage over your character being nerfed 2 years ago...which is really what this is...by proclaiming yourself the Ralph Nader of the MMO world and advocating consumer protection...go for it.
Please don't think anyone is really buying it though.
I could care less if people play the new SWG or don't, quite frankly. When I stopped liking the game, I stopped playing it..that was it...no big outcry that the world as I know it has been destroyed. I'd love for a new SW MMO to come out, which the Bioware news is the only reason I stopped in here, but now I'm simply entertained by the whole thing.
EDIT: oh, and off work for the Holiday week LOL!
Just roll over and show your belly?
Dismissing a real economic tort as "nerd rage" indicates that you ARE either disingenous or ignorant.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Yes they did.. but not everyone is so forgiving simply because they apologized.. oh wait they didn't.. they grudgingly gave us our money back so we wouldn't sue them.. they fully intended to try to get away with defrauding their own customers.
Just roll over and show your belly?
Dismissing a real economic tort as "nerd rage" indicates that you ARE either disingenous or ignorant.
LOL! That's not remotely what happened though, now is it???
They told you that you COULD return it and get a refund. Get it?????
What else do you think you're entitled a refund for other than the expansion? The game you probably milked a minimum of 500 gaming hours out of??? The subscription fee that probably boiled down to a quarter an hour at most for months of enjoyment???
There is no real economic tort...it is simply nerd rage...at it's finest. BTW, you also clearly don't understand what an economic tort is either.
Unless you were playing SWG as a trade or business.
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Economic+tort
I could care less if people play the new SWG or don't, quite frankly. When I stopped liking the game, I stopped playing it..that was it...no big outcry that the world as I know it has been destroyed. I'd love for a new SW MMO to come out, which the Bioware news is the only reason I stopped in here, but now I'm simply entertained by the whole thing.
EDIT: oh, and off work for the Holiday week LOL!
who am i to say something over other people opinions desires,needs but seems to me if i understand you right you lost nothing back then..ok..np with that ..but what makes you judge what other people feel and think about loss of something they value ?
PS: bet for many people is write posts in forums pure nerdiness too , would it make you a nerd ?
BTW it was totally superfloous to changea game that kept going like SWG did PRE CU , was totally "amused" about that greedy behaviour the company showed towards his customers , really sorry that me as victim open my mouth here about what i experienced,
butyou know what i am very amused about the success $OE had with they way "of apply changes they saw fit".
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
which is why this isn't a consumer protection issue, and simply nerd rage going strong after 2 years. It's people holding a grudge, who actually lost absolutely nothing.
BTW, it's more than a little amusing to me that a company who clearly provided you with more enjoyment than you've ever had in life (judging by the rage you're still carrying around 2 years later) for what, like 2 years...for next to no cost...becomes the anti-christ and a borderline criminal organization because they changed the game in a way they saw fit.
Why don't you just say "hey...thanks for the incredibly inexpensive fun you provided me...and good luck with your new thing".