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The #1 SandBox MMO is still the one and Only Galaxies
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There were 250K exploiters? Wait....huh.....you lost me with the 35% thing or maybe the sandbox part....
LMAO! Guess you never travelled to Kashyyk or even Mustafar.
In fact, when you think about it. Travelling from planet to planet can be considered instancing or zoning (if you want to be technical about it) so is from ground to space. No instancing? ROFL! What are the heroic encounters considered then? LOL!
Fact: SOE was too lazy or too incompetent to put the work that was needed to balance the skill system and in fact it had been said a number of times by the players that combat needed to be FIXED not overhauled. SOE did the opposite, they didn't even "fix what was broke" they simply destroyed what was already working, then pi**ed on the remains. I can't believe there are still vets who like playing this game, and worse claim it is like the second coming of christ. But then again, just as with my metahor above, some people just have weird fetishes and like being pi**ed on. Fact: the game is a JOKE now compared to not only what it was before, but also compared to what's out there NOW. As you said, this cannot be argued, it cannot be debated. 250k-300k people have spoken. You're in the minority, you may be the most vocal, but still the minority.
1) Levels
2)Pre-Set Classes (as opposed to x amount of skill points to spend in various profession boxes)
Now beyond that.. what I really take issue with is...
What exactly was my Bio-Engineer exploiting? The fact I could make pets? The fact people bought them? Was that my "I Win" button?
I mean you just claimed that only 35% of people quit the game and they were all exploiters?
So the 80% that quit were just 35% overall? Is this some new math?
Also um DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot) has levels... if you really want to see "I Win Buttons" why don't you go play that? Then tell me exactly how levels bring balance to any MMO...
Since this is just a rehash of your last post.. I don't really expect any kind of answer (that makes sense in a reality type way).
But you are correct on one point...
SWG is the BEST Star Wars MMO currently on the market (its also the only Star Wars MMO currently on the market) how odd?
Your post always make me laugh. Your a spaz!
Eve online has 5000 systems. Thats a ton of space. It is the largest MMO Universe on planet earth. You need server merges for SWG big time. Imagine a game where you can worry more about the fun of it than trying to constantly get to that next level- that is eve online.
I do miss SWG and I do think the current devs are the best team since the NGE was released. But this game needs some serious updates. The storm troopers look terrible. And the wookies need a graphic update. Their hair looks like an old desktop background from Mac OS 7. SWG needs more staff. Develop 10 more professions. Bring server merges- and i may try that 21 day invite back 0 but eve online baby! Now thats a brilliant game!
You crack me up though keep your spaz post coming. Oh - mustafar and kashykk- you dont have the freedom. Make sure when your done with the legacy quest that you go to Kashyyyyyyyykk via hyperspace.
LMAO! Guess you never travelled to Kashyyk or even Mustafar.
In fact, when you think about it. Travelling from planet to planet can be considered instancing or zoning (if you want to be technical about it) so is from ground to space. No instancing? ROFL! What are the heroic encounters considered then? LOL!
Fact: SOE was too lazy or too incompetent to put the work that was needed to balance the skill system and in fact it had been said a number of times by the players that combat needed to be FIXED not overhauled. SOE did the opposite, they didn't even "fix what was broke" they simply destroyed what was already working, then pi**ed on the remains. I can't believe there are still vets who like playing this game, and worse claim it is like the second coming of christ. But then again, just as with my metahor above, some people just have weird fetishes and like being pi**ed on. Fact: the game is a JOKE now compared to not only what it was before, but also compared to what's out there NOW. As you said, this cannot be argued, it cannot be debated. 250k-300k people have spoken. You're in the minority, you may be the most vocal, but still the minority.
QFT
SOE also need to rewrite the EULA! Instead of "Gameplay may change during online play" it should say "Gameplay may get f****d up during online play"
I dont know any other game (and please correct me here, because i haven't played every MMO) that you are able to truly and fully do these things:
- Create and run your own events: spawn mobs, put up decorations/NPCs
- Decorate Houses to a large extent: Almost anything can be dropped in a house and moved anywhere (now on any axis)
- Entire Player cities with complete freedom of placing any building
- Decorate Player Space ships
- Extensive emote and player animation system (there are literally 1000s)
- Entertainer system with all the different songs and dances
- systems such as BM, armor, clothing, furniture crafting all have huge customization and diversity.
There are probably elements of those things in other games, but not truly like swg. Then add this to the expertise system which is not, admittedly as sandbox as Pre-NGE, but is still good, especially as they continue to add new expertise trees.
Something to consider is this.
What happens to SWG when and if these things are borrowed for a new MMO?
Is the community and game strong enough to survive competition?
When it was revealed that nothing "organic" had anything to do with becoming a Jedi, it pissed a lot of people off. I know they lost a good portion of their playerbase as i never saw many of the folks on my friends list, ever again. (That changed around the time of the village, but I digress.)
Now had they applied "organic" systems to Jedi *and many other systems as well* (finding the rebel alliance in order to join them, becoming a smuggler by getting involved in criminal acts, stuff like that) SWG very possibly could've went down as the greatest MMORPG ever made.
-- xpaladin
[MMOz]
AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
And has some dancing if you can call it that..
But it was not what im looking for..
In the words of Yoda, "Levels do not a balanced game make."
The skill system gave players a level playing ground that rewarded them for their efforts. In addition to raw skill, the items made players into powerhouses, and for the most part, these items came from other players who crafted and traded goods. Meanwhile, entertainers kept the galaxies going socially. Everyone is somewhat competitive with the right gear -- in the SWG of old, it was very possible for even the non combat classes to grab a very good weapon -- such as a legendary -- and jump into batte with respectable DPS. If they had points left over from crafting, they could even make minimal investments in arms and defense to increase their potential lethality, or become a hybrid.
The level system, on the other hand, restricts players. It may provide goals, sure -- you want to go to Mustafar? You gotta be level 80 first and able to fly, kiddo, snap to it. Want to fight? Be a fighter class if you want to survive. Want to be a hybrid character? Roll another 'toon -- you're stuck with your character class. Want to use that legendary pistol? Nope, not unless you're level X, and yes, that's even if that pistol looks and functions just like every other pistol out there.
And lastly, the exploits you mention are completely unrelated to the skill system, so I think your comparison fails. You seem more concerned about the mind poison/disease, which I'll grant was problematic but not an exploit. That was more of a problem of the HAM bars in general. Many good players and teams had counteraction methods in place to deal with poisons and the basic ability to communicate and take the 'chuckers down.
Bottom line for me in this thread is while SWG still retains some of the elements that made it a sandbox in the first place, it lacks a lot of the original charm and open-endedness that made it a sandbox. As it is now, it is merely the deformed bastard child of UO and WoW.
-- xpaladin
[MMOz]
AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
Sandbox? Lol once upon a time SWG was, but not now! Ryzom was a sandbox game! Yeah there's nothing to exploit because ther's no one to play the game with after 80% of us left after we got the shaft with the NGE!
have you ever seen a sandbox ?
There is no MMO out there fullfill criteria of a sandbox. There is only a more or less ofan sandbox in the MMO's.
the origin idea of building something in a sandbox don't include that way you build something linear or not because you always build something linear -step by step - but the ability and the freedom to build your OWN imaginations.
Instances deal more with the persistant aspect of the world in first place then with sandbox aspect, because often in such an instance you can create your own content. The problem is it is not connected to the world.
So what is more sandbox :
Spy or "choose your profession template from 32 available professions with the limitation of spending only 250 skill points"
level 90 or "get as many skill trees and/or masters as you like within you SP of 250"
loot the uber item or "try many variations of recipes and buff and experimintation bonus to build your uber item"
Sure you can go everywhere and do anything but the devs don't like it you doing that, i guess because the devs only NGE'd the combat concerning mechanics and not the planet mechanics , but as you see in the later expansions they tried to destroy sandbox idea there to.
In a sandbox YOU have to put something into to get something, like much reading, getting the knowledge from the Vets, working for a profession template you think it suits to you, experimenting, crafting.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Ok really wanna know what a 'sandbox' game is?
Second Life.
That is a sandbox game, not SWG, not UO but Second Life.... Oh I know "But SWG let you take skills and make your own toon and...." Lets just stop right there...
A Sandbox game is a game that lets you 'do' anything, 'make' anything. In other words a Sandbox game has no real 'rules' or 'setting' it's an open world that lets the user do whatever they want.... Now granted some games are what I like to call 'semi-sandbox' in this case lets take the Pen and Paper RPG 'Gurps' by Steve Jackson Games. The game does have a default rules system, however the game just doesn't have one setting. Rather it has many worlds and settings and allows the Player to make up his own.
So what was SWG? It was a 'Skill' based MMORPG...
See all CRPG's and MMORPG's are trying to be like Pen and Paper RPG's. In the Pen and Paper world of RPG's you have two 'core' rules types. The 'Class' based system and the 'Skill' based system.
The 'Class' based system is your Dungeons and Dragons system, you have a group of Players all of whom are filling a group role. In the case with D&D you have Warriors with sub-groups like Rangers. Mage's and Clerics, with their sub-groups as well, and lastly Thief's whom also have a few sub-groups. People are 'locked' into a Class in order to have people playing roles the party needs. The Cleric is the healer, the Mage is the Damage Dealer, the Thief is the Scout/Lockpicker/Ranged Damage Dealer and the Warrior is the Tank/Melee Damage Dealer. Most groups have people filling all those roles, if not then the GM has an NPC go along with the party to fill one of those roles in. As you move on in the game you get better with levels, so a 5th Level Fighter is going to hit more, and do more damage then a 1th Level Fighter.
The 'Skill' based RPG is a little more open, rather then have a 'set' Class people have Skills that the group needs... Lets take a game called Cyberpunk 2020, one player may have some skill in Hacking, another player may have skills in Heavy Weapons, another may have a skills in First Aid. Now yes most people do end up taking a set of skills to better their role in the group, and will take a few back-up skills as well. But you do still have Classes for the most part. It's just rather then gaining a Level, you gain points to add onto your skills. In the case with Cyberpunk a skill of 1 means your new at it, 10 means your a master. So if you have a 3 in lets say Pistols, you can shoot one and do good on a firing range, in real combat your going to be missing alot. At 10 you can make trickshots and know where to put a round...
So really SWG Pre-CU was a 'Skill' based RPG, somewhat... See SWG even back then was more of a hybrid of two systems. Ultima Online's skill system and Everquest's Class system. See where Everquest had you 'locked' into a Class, and UO's system allowed you to be a Tailor who also had skills in Swordsmanship, SWG tried to take the best from both. The Player can be a Entertainer who also had skills in firing a Carbine, and unlike UO with it's almost 'random' skill gain system, it used Everquest's Xp system. Now here's the question, why do more MMORPG's go with the Level Based system rather then the Skill Based system... Well to put it nicely, most players end up taking the same skills and end up being a 'class' anyway...
Lets take UO, you 'had' to have Magery. It gave you some spells to defend yourself it also gave you a Travel Spell known as 'Recall' that allowed you to move around faster or get out of the area when a ton of Monsters or from 1998 till 2000, Player Killers rolled in. If you where a Melee Fighter you had to take your melee skill, tactics that gave you better damage, Anatomy that also allowed you to do more damage, Healing that also worked with Anatomy and there are a few other skills as well... Still most ended up being the 'same' thing.
Same case in SWG, how many people where TKA/Swordsman/Medics? How many people took Medic for heals? Or Rifleman/Ranger/Medic? Or in the CU BH/Combat Medic? See that's what happens with a Skill Based game, most people end up taking a Template that's viewed as 'the best'. Dare I say but look at the Classes in the NGE they almost followed what people took in the Pre-CU/CU. Bounty Hunter's had the Carbines and Rifles Tree's, the Traps almost act as the Combat Medic stuff people took. Smugglers are Melee or Pistols, so on so forth..
So no SWG wasn't a Sandbox game. It was a Skill Based RPG that tried to have Everquest's 'easyer' grind and UO's "you have X amount of skill points to spend on what you want." However much like all Skill Based RPG's before it, people found what was worked best with what they took and went from there...
Just randomly stating things here, Active Worlds came WAY before Second Life. Any old Active Players here when the Citizenship costs were $20 a year? =D
Gotta miss Active Worlds....sigh....I tried Second Life because it reminded me of it, but it just wasn't the same
LMAO! Guess you never travelled to Kashyyk or even Mustafar.
In fact, when you think about it. Travelling from planet to planet can be considered instancing or zoning (if you want to be technical about it) so is from ground to space. No instancing? ROFL! What are the heroic encounters considered then? LOL!
Fact: SOE was too lazy or too incompetent to put the work that was needed to balance the skill system and in fact it had been said a number of times by the players that combat needed to be FIXED not overhauled. SOE did the opposite, they didn't even "fix what was broke" they simply destroyed what was already working, then pi**ed on the remains. I can't believe there are still vets who like playing this game, and worse claim it is like the second coming of christ. But then again, just as with my metahor above, some people just have weird fetishes and like being pi**ed on. Fact: the game is a JOKE now compared to not only what it was before, but also compared to what's out there NOW. As you said, this cannot be argued, it cannot be debated. 250k-300k people have spoken. You're in the minority, you may be the most vocal, but still the minority.
QFT
SOE also need to rewrite the EULA! Instead of "Gameplay may change during online play" it should say "Gameplay may get f****d up during online play"
They did change it. It now says...
You understand that we may update or otherwise enhance the Game and/or the Software at any time and in doing so incur no obligation to furnish such updates to you pursuant to this Agreement.
So let the FOTMs do their thing, and let me NOT do their thing. My preferred pre-CU playstyle was a low-level generalist. I did a lot of different things adequately, instead of one or two in depth. This approach to SWG worked quite well at that time. The CU really screwed over that playstyle by imposing levels and robbing the low-level players of most of their weapons. That was the beginning of the end, and 6 months later LA/SOE quit pretending they cared at all for player freedom of choice. And players quitting in droves came as a shocking surprise to them!
SWG is not a sandbox game.
Taken from Wikipedia:
Sandbox game
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A sandbox game (or a video game with an optional sandbox mode) is a video game with an open-ended and non-linear style of gameplay, or a mode of gameplay within a game that is more often played in a goal-directed manner. The sandbox analogy is used to describe this style of gaming because, as with a physical sandbox, the user is simply allowed to do what he or she wishes (with the available game elements and within the limitations of the game engine — the metaphoric toys within, and boundaries of, the sandbox). This free-form experimentation is either an end unto itself — in contrast to competing models of gaming — or is a variant modality that has no effect on more traditional or usual play of the same game, such as scores, game level advancement milestones, player rankings, etc. Just as a real-world sandbox can be smoothed out and resculpted again and again, so the sandbox game or game mode can be played and explored repeatedly without a linear "plot" or a particular set of expectations, nor any lasting gameplay consequences.
Role-playing games, including MMORPGs, and various other types of games can be sandbox games as well. The best selling PC game of all time, The Sims[1], is a sandbox-style creation. Space trading and combat simulators, such as Elite and Wing Commander: Privateer, are examples of sandbox games.
More "traditional" goal-oriented video games sometimes offer a sandbox mode, usually an option that allows the player more freedom by lifting some of the normal rules of gameplay. For example, the player may no longer have to worry about restricting resource requirements (such as having enough money to complete an action), nor be required to complete storyline goals. The "god mode" and level editors offered by many combat games effectively convert them into sandboxes, allowing the player to explore every cranny of the game map without having to fend off enemies.
Common features of sandbox-style video gaming
QFE!
You are so wrong on this it's not even funny...
You can go anywhere...if your level allows it.
There is instancing...if your level allows it.
The SECOND you slap levels into a MMORPG it immediately becomes non-sandbox. In sandbox games, there is no end game; or rather it is created with that mindset.
Putting in a completely new system, (I.E. levels, as you refer to them "balancing the game"), is even harder work than balancing out the first. Which seems like less development work to you; fixing the mind bar exploit in the current system, or taking ten times that long to build a new one, THEN dealing with all the new exploits with the new system.
Players are going to exploit, they are going to find out how your game works, it's one of the laws of virtual worlds (yes it's an actual law). I've seen tons of exploits in the NGE, are you kidding me? Facts are what matter, not opinion.
Are you totally DERANGED?? ( a fish called Wanda )
I just logged into the 21 day trial and i cant even play this POS anymore.
I have a flawless cable connection and have enjoyed gong back every so often to checkout whats up in SWG. My average FPS is normally around 25 with medium server load. I just logged out in disgust. A whopping 6-10 FPS on a very light server load. OMG!! And 3 FPS with the inventory open.
No need to answer the question Horkathane, any true vet can answer it for you just fine. Your energy would be better served elsewhere. Most vets use to feel the same way you do. Only problem, is that it was for the pre-CU game. Try to imagine 300k players with the same feels you have for the NGE. NOW THAT WAS A GAME!
You probably didn't know how to play the old game, and with all the UBER loots they give you now days you feel like a god.
HAHAHA! go on back to what ever hole game you are playing now because you are living in the shadows of your own imposing failure at Galaxies. You are now a sheep and have allowed yourself to be culled to the heard of the crowd of mindless zombies who think that balance = exploit, FOTM. There is no more FOTM's in Galaxies bub and why is that?
Because my short sighted friend its balanced now. The irrefutable truth of it all is you got burned out of your FOTM choices and your dreams of glorious exploitation of unbalanced game play.
TOO BAD FOR JU!
Anyone who claims that the current SWG > (pre)cu-SWG derserves to be sent to a nuthouse.
How crazy can you be
A true snadbox will pretty much make you feel like you are makeing your own choices and direction in the virtual world then being forced to go do content on expansion worlds to level (this is where they messed up).
I'll give you an example back in the day we could put on any armor we wanted as a newly made avatar "like in real life" using any general weapon (melee or ranged) and fight pretty much anything. I remember mastering my TKM and Swordsman boxes up on Dathomir, after getting my basic TKM cert box.
Galaxies have turned out ass backwards and never will feel like a sandbox again with the "Star WOW Galaxies" code they are using.
It still has the only housing/player city system I like of any MMORPG but the gameplay is completely destroyed and there's barely anyone to play with. There's no way it could be as enjoyable as it was years ago.
2nd life has rules. All games have rules. You can't "do whatever you want" in 2nd life, only what the game will allow.
I don't know that there is a formal definition of "a sandbox" but definitely a game with more sandbox elements than others. IMO a sandbox element is when there are multiple options that a player could choose. The more features that include multiple possible choices (e.g. 250 skill points), the more sandbox-like a game is. The more features that only allow one option (one line of progression), the more linear the game is. I don't think you can say that one game is a sandbox and another is linear, only that one is more sandbox-like and the other more linear.