I suppose it depends on how you see his comment. I see it as an explanation of how popular a game is and that is how it's determined as great or not. You obviously see different criteria for that determination, but a lot of people don't see things that way. I'm of his opinion. If a game is very popular, then there must be something or somethings that make it great. Which game gets all the critical merits and will likely go down in history, EQ2 or WoW? Even games like the original EQ, while heralded as the vanguard of the MMO genre, it is completely eclipsed by WoW. And while people like you continue to view old school games with rose tinted glasses, it does not change the fact that WoW is considered not only a great game, but the best that has yet to come out in the genre.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
In my humble experience, the thing that has always appealed to me the most in EQ2 that I cannot seem to find in WoW is the level of immersion involved and the pride the players place in their characters.
EQ2 appeals to my almost o.c.d. nature to perfect my characters and gives me hundreds of unique and difference aspects to do so... To me the tradeskilling system is it's biggest draw, not its most time-consuming flaw.
WoW on the other hand appeals to my need to be able to "just jump in" and to be able to accomplish more, per hour, than on EQ2 ... but on the other hand - and it might be my EQ & EQ2 backgrounds - it never seems as satisfying because I didn't have to do as much to "earn it".
In that regard, for me, EQ2 is a more "solo" game because it's got more for me to do "by myself" even though it's not adventuring...
I would like to say I am a current subscriber to wow also played both Wow and EQ2 at launch. Now for my thoughts WOOT.
I like both games, one is just easier then the other. Wow is just a hell of of a lot easier to play its a fact nobody is denying here. But EQ2 was always atleast for the time I played it way more Immersive, then wow.. That is where you draw the line. Do you want a quick reward for leveling completing a quest, or would you like to feel involved or apart of the world? Now i can't speak much because I never maxed out my EQ2 character, But what i remember from those years ago ( Before they changed EQ2 with the Quil and Book quest marks above there heads) was walking in the city and hearing people shout they needed help and the full immersion of that. You didn't have to click on somebody or look for a question mark above somebodies head. You just followed the cries and moved to the NPC to see if you could help.
Immersion vs Instant Reward totally the up to the player what they want more from the game.
WoW has a more "arcady" feel to it which is why it's so popular, you can jump strait into it which is something you can't do with EQ2.
WoW also feels better presented, it's much easier to see whats going on when in combat etc. EQ2's combat is kinda messy, the sound is all out of time (or missing and seeming random volumes), animations are often out of time and not at consistent speeds. A lot of the time you don't know whether something hit or missed.
This lower quality feel is reflected through the whole game
EQ2's combat is kinda messy, the sound is all out of time (or missing and seeming random volumes), animations are often out of time and not at consistent speeds. A lot of the time you don't know whether something hit or missed.
This lower quality feel is reflected through the whole game
Hmmm...I think the lower quality is in your computer, as I experience none of the problems you have listed..
Time to upgrade...or stick with WoW's less than demanding graphics....
As fast paced as WoW is, it is not an instant gratification game. Everything takes time, just not as long as EQ2 or any of those other more hardcore games. Yes, it's easier to get into, but it's not easy to master, especially if you play PvP, so I'm not understanding all of this crap about how much deeper and meaningful EQ2 is. I've played EQ2 and I didn't find any more meaning in that game than any other. Just because it takes longer to progess does not make it more meaningful. Nor does a greater variety of classes and skills do that when so many of them are either redundant or have little to no effect so you don't even put them on your hotbar.
WoW's story lines are easier to find, but it's no less creative than EQ2's and it's certainly not shallow. WoW's combat is less forgiving when it comes to making mistakes. Due to the speed of battle, you have to get things right the first time or you die. In EQ2, battle takes forever and I always had opportunities to make mistakes and still survive the battle. I also feel my time is much more rewarded than it did in EQ2, especially as an avid soloer. I could even do group instances at a higher level and still get rewards that would be useful to me. In EQ2, I could only do the solo instances, group instances couldn't be done unless they had been greyed out. I did not find the solo instances very rewarding nor did I find many of them that were actually fun to participate in, merely just a bunch of tunnels with little imagination put into them.
There are a lot more reasons why WoW is the more popular and more preferred game. I don't even really need to list them as WoW's subscription numbers should be enough for most people to tell them it's a fun and engaging game and for most people, the best MMO out there currently.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Just because it takes longer to progess does not make it more meaningful. Nor does a greater variety of classes and skills do that when so many of them are either redundant or have little to no effect so you don't even put them on your hotbar. WoW's combat is less forgiving when it comes to making mistakes. Due to the speed of battle, you have to get things right the first time or you die. In EQ2, battle takes forever and I always had opportunities to make mistakes and still survive the battle. I also feel my time is much more rewarded than it did in EQ2, especially as an avid soloer. I could even do group instances at a higher level and still get rewards that would be useful to me. In EQ2, I could only do the solo instances, group instances couldn't be done unless they had been greyed out. I did not find the solo instances very rewarding nor did I find many of them that were actually fun to participate in, merely just a bunch of tunnels with little imagination put into them. There are a lot more reasons why WoW is the more popular and more preferred game. I don't even really need to list them as WoW's subscription numbers should be enough for most people to tell them it's a fun and engaging game and for most people, the best MMO out there currently.
You pretty much answered your own question of what makes EQ2 a better game. It takes better players. I'm sorry you weren't good enough to play, but considering the numbers, and the people I meet in game all the time, the bad players certainly outnumber the good ones. You've already admitted, and wrote what you wrote, but don't feel bad, I'm not very good at donkey kong. So there are some games people play well, and others, well...
EQ2 is definitely a better game than WoW, in almost every way. I even have the WoW-boi's to prove it with their own admissions. WoW is a good game, but there are definitely better games.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
It is just silly to state that people aren't somehow 'good' enough to play EQ2 and that is why they liked another game better. It doesn't take a NASA scientist to play an MMO since they all pretty much play the same exact way. If someone isn't skilled in EQ2 they aren't going to suddenly become a good player in another game. People are either going to be good at quest based MMOs or they aren't.
**I'm only comparing Everquest style games, not twitch or pvp aspects. Nuke, heal, stun, chop, yadda yadda**
Blaming people computers being the problem or them sucking isn't very reasonable.
I think you misunderstood what was written. Nope, not at all, he sounds like a lot of haters that write about how this and that is bad because they're bad. After reading the posts, and playing with and against players in the game for 3 years, I can recognize exactly what they're complaining about and where the trouble lies. I never said EQ2 was perfect, as a matter of fact, I've proclaimed a couple games being superior in certain aspects. When they say, "All the combat is button mashing", or "I can't beat greys" or "All the X sub-class are the same", then I chuckle to myself and KNOW they are just not good players. There's nothing wrong with being a bad player, as long as you ADMIT it, and quit, or learn to play. But to complain that the game sucks, because you suck is the epitamy of egotistical. Well, sorry, but some people are just not good at certain games. They don't take the time, don't care, or just don't have the ability, I don't know. We've kicked people out of our guild, kicked them out of groups, and even blacklisted players on a server because they are no good. I'll be a man, and I'll admit, I suck at RTS's. I like them. They're fun games, but I'll own up and say it, I suck. So instead of just looking stupid to the people that don't suck, and know what they're doing, just own up and say, ok, this just isn't my game, I'm just not cut out for it. Then everyone will be happy. The people that are good will have their game that challenges them and gives them what they like, and they others can just go away. It really doesn't break my heart either way. It is just silly to state that people aren't somehow 'good' enough to play EQ2 and that is why they liked another game better. It doesn't take a NASA scientist to play an MMO since they all pretty much play the same exact way. If someone isn't skilled in EQ2 they aren't going to suddenly become a good player in another game. People are either going to be good at quest based MMOs or they aren't. Nobody has to be a NASA scientist to play any game, that's neither here nor there. WoW is easy mode. Everybody knows it. To say WoW needs to be mastered is showing exactly what I was talking about above, ignorance. WoW is easy because it's a mainstream. It's built to get Joe Shmo, the "I suck" in video games to top level as fast as possible so he'll "feel" like he's actually accomplished something, laugh, and not want to quit. The other side is that a lot of good players do quit because the game leaves them wanting, so they go out to find other things, and get bored of "easy-mode" WoW. Of course you can beat greens in WoW, they're ALWAYS green. Shoot, I could solo up to 5 even leveled cons in WoW without breaking a sweat. In groups, you barely had to follow class roles because the fights were way too fast. Heck, a mage could tank WoW mobs for as long as it took to take them down. Now in EQ2, you better know what you're doing or your mage will get eaten. And we have crowd control. Only about 20% of WoW players even know what that means. **I'm only comparing Everquest style games, not twitch or pvp aspects. Nuke, heal, stun, chop, yadda yadda** Each game has its own set of skills. Whether its skill choosing, or twitch. Some poeple are better at some and others at others. It all takes some sort of skill even if that measure of skill might be low. Blaming people computers being the problem or them sucking isn't very reasonable. Blaming the game because you suck at it is unacceptable. Move on, find something you are good at and leave the good players to live another day. I'm sick and tired of suck players killing off groups and saying stupid crap.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
I don't have the slightest idea overall what people are playing or what game they are going to.
My "personal" experience is I was in a fairly hard core raiding guild.
RoK came out and everyone started doing their own thing.
About half our guild members have left the guild (not even sure where they went or if they quit). I know a couple were giving accounts to friends .. so that was why they disbanded.
We went from raiding 5 nights a week... to.. well since RoK we've had a total of 3..
I honestly see where if we don't find "new" people or get the old ones back we won't be able to do the raids as a guild.
That isn't a commentary on the overall game. I just didn't expect our guild to implode after the expansion.
However, we've had a lot of people leaving guilds in other games due to "boredom".
Saying that it takes more skill to play EQ2 than it does another MMO is just flat out silly. It isn't like someone can't level on under conned monsters in any game on the market and it is somehow a feature exclusive to WoW. A bad player in EQ2 is going to be a bad player in WoW or any other game. Just like an exceptional player in EQ2 is going to excel in whatever game they play.
Its not like crowd control is some totally different concept in EQ2 than it is in WoW. The same goes for damage healing tanking etc. EQ2 isn't some tactical revolution in MMOs. Maybe there are different learning curves on the finer points of the game like spending talent/aa points of how to use certain skills in what situations, but that doesn't make either game retard proof or prevent anyone from leveling to max level in either game. Nor does it mean someone sucks if they don't like the game.
Just because this guy doesn't share your opinion of the game doesn't mean you can label him a hater and then say he sucks. I think you misread the part of his post you highlighted.
I think you misunderstood what was written. Nope, not at all, he sounds like a lot of haters that write about how this and that is bad because they're bad. After reading the posts, and playing with and against players in the game for 3 years, I can recognize exactly what they're complaining about and where the trouble lies. I never said EQ2 was perfect, as a matter of fact, I've proclaimed a couple games being superior in certain aspects. When they say, "All the combat is button mashing", or "I can't beat greys" or "All the X sub-class are the same", then I chuckle to myself and KNOW they are just not good players. There's nothing wrong with being a bad player, as long as you ADMIT it, and quit, or learn to play. But to complain that the game sucks, because you suck is the epitamy of egotistical. Well, sorry, but some people are just not good at certain games. They don't take the time, don't care, or just don't have the ability, I don't know. We've kicked people out of our guild, kicked them out of groups, and even blacklisted players on a server because they are no good. I'll be a man, and I'll admit, I suck at RTS's. I like them. They're fun games, but I'll own up and say it, I suck. So instead of just looking stupid to the people that don't suck, and know what they're doing, just own up and say, ok, this just isn't my game, I'm just not cut out for it. Then everyone will be happy. The people that are good will have their game that challenges them and gives them what they like, and they others can just go away. It really doesn't break my heart either way. It is just silly to state that people aren't somehow 'good' enough to play EQ2 and that is why they liked another game better. It doesn't take a NASA scientist to play an MMO since they all pretty much play the same exact way. If someone isn't skilled in EQ2 they aren't going to suddenly become a good player in another game. People are either going to be good at quest based MMOs or they aren't. Nobody has to be a NASA scientist to play any game, that's neither here nor there. WoW is easy mode. Everybody knows it. To say WoW needs to be mastered is showing exactly what I was talking about above, ignorance. WoW is easy because it's a mainstream. It's built to get Joe Shmo, the "I suck" in video games to top level as fast as possible so he'll "feel" like he's actually accomplished something, laugh, and not want to quit. The other side is that a lot of good players do quit because the game leaves them wanting, so they go out to find other things, and get bored of "easy-mode" WoW. Of course you can beat greens in WoW, they're ALWAYS green. Shoot, I could solo up to 5 even leveled cons in WoW without breaking a sweat. In groups, you barely had to follow class roles because the fights were way too fast. Heck, a mage could tank WoW mobs for as long as it took to take them down. Now in EQ2, you better know what you're doing or your mage will get eaten. And we have crowd control. Only about 20% of WoW players even know what that means. **I'm only comparing Everquest style games, not twitch or pvp aspects. Nuke, heal, stun, chop, yadda yadda** Each game has its own set of skills. Whether its skill choosing, or twitch. Some poeple are better at some and others at others. It all takes some sort of skill even if that measure of skill might be low. Blaming people computers being the problem or them sucking isn't very reasonable. Blaming the game because you suck at it is unacceptable. Move on, find something you are good at and leave the good players to live another day. I'm sick and tired of suck players killing off groups and saying stupid crap.
Where do you get off calling me a bad player. You don't have a clue bub. I've been playing these games since EQ beta and I've played just about all of them. Dislike for a game's play style does not make one a bad player. What it does mean is that games like EQ and EQ2 are boring as hell to me. They're grindy to the extreme, they only reward hardcore and raiders with the best gear and they make leveling solo a pain in the ass. But there is nothing difficult about that, it's just plain tedious. You are one arrogant and assuming person.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Where do you get off calling me a bad player. You don't have a clue bub. I've been playing these games since EQ beta and I've played just about all of them. Dislike for a game's play style does not make one a bad player. What it does mean is that games like EQ and EQ2 are boring as hell to me. They're grindy to the extreme, they only reward hardcore and raiders with the best gear and they make leveling solo a pain in the ass. But there is nothing difficult about that, it's just plain tedious. You are one arrogant and assuming person.
Keep digging, I'm almost done with your coffin. Keep writing, because what you say is the best ammunition I've ever seen anyone type. Playing "these games" since EQ does not make you a good player. Disliking a game because of playstyle is fine. As Daffodil said, EQ2 is pretty run of the mill when it comes to the basic MMO, skills and levels.
Grindy (grinding) seems to be a catch phrase now-adays. Grinding measures the level of repetition to get things done in a game. A more grindy game would have more repetition, obviously, than a less grindy atmosphere. I would venture to say that EQ2 is one of the least grindy games of its genre. WoW tries to reduce repetition by making levels unimportant to the point of almost non-existant. The problem is, there is very little difference in the things you do in game to gain those levels. Fight mobs and do quests.
The mobs are cool, but they're never alive long enough to see what they do. Solo mobs are just bumps in the road. Group mobs can be tough but only the names and sometimes in numbers that would make winning so lucky it takes all the strategy out of it. The raids are too scripted to the point of "follow the script, win the battle". Now there is some strategy in WoW, and there are tough places, but it is noticably less than a lot of places in EQ2.
The quests are standard, go get this, and take this to X. You have protection quests where you protect someone or something, and you even have quests that you have to do something "out of the ordinary" to get it started. I'll admit there are fun and imaginative quests in WoW, but EQ2 has them in spades, plus has "quest type" actions that never appear in WoW. EQ2 has collection quests, and exploration quests, language quests, and even knowledge quests that make you fight better against certain type of creatures. Everyone speaks the same language, and that is completely ridiculous where in EQ2, if I can't speak their language, how am I going to get any quests from him?
Also, you mention that "hardcore raiding" gets the best rewards, when in reality, some of the BEST items in the game are from solo and group quests and dungeons. We're a top raiding guild on our server, and there are some quests, solo and group, and places, again solo and group, that we are required to get certain items NEEDED to beat raid mobs. In fact, Druesilla, a GROUP mob, dropped a fabled robe that was the best thing I've ever seen in the game. I'm currently using a fabled dagger I got in a GROUP dungeon.
So yeah, I'll call you a bad player. You can't kill grey mobs. You can't differentiate good items from bad items. You obviously don't take advantage of EVERY type of quest to level and make your gaming experience more enjoyable. I see it in all types of posts complaining about the same things you do, and just like you, they don't widen their own ways of getting from point A to point B, but instead take the "most obvious" path and then complain how it's boring or repetitive.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
Saying that it takes more skill to play EQ2 than it does another MMO is just flat out silly. It isn't like someone can't level on under conned monsters in any game on the market and it is somehow a feature exclusive to WoW. A bad player in EQ2 is going to be a bad player in WoW or any other game. Just like an exceptional player in EQ2 is going to excel in whatever game they play. Its not like crowd control is some totally different concept in EQ2 than it is in WoW. The same goes for damage healing tanking etc. EQ2 isn't some tactical revolution in MMOs. Maybe there are different learning curves on the finer points of the game like spending talent/aa points of how to use certain skills in what situations, but that doesn't make either game retard proof or prevent anyone from leveling to max level in either game. Nor does it mean someone sucks if they don't like the game.
Just because this guy doesn't share your opinion of the game doesn't mean you can label him a hater and then say he sucks. I think you misread the part of his post you highlighted.
I completely agree with you Daffodill. Although I have seen WoW players come over to EQ2, and have actually explained to a 70+ ILLUSIONIST what crowd control means, in general your statement is correct. I still stand behind what I've said and will show him where he is absolutely wrong.
As far as sharing opinions of certain aspects of EQ2, that's not a problem. I wish the combat was more like Vanguard, I wish the tradeskilling was more like Horizons ( I completely dislike rare harvests), and I wish there wasn't as many zones. There are a lot of things in EQ2 I wish were different, and I'll discuss those all day long. But there is a difference between complaining about the way the game is, and the way the game seems because they are too narrow minded to use the tools given to us in the game to circumvent.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
I played the first EQ and loved it. I also played the EQ II at launch and hated it, just like you I went to Wow and have been there ever since. I download EQ II not that long ago for the second time and still didn't like it as much as I like WoW.
Saying that it takes more skill to play EQ2 than it does another MMO is just flat out silly. It isn't like someone can't level on under conned monsters in any game on the market and it is somehow a feature exclusive to WoW. A bad player in EQ2 is going to be a bad player in WoW or any other game. Just like an exceptional player in EQ2 is going to excel in whatever game they play. Its not like crowd control is some totally different concept in EQ2 than it is in WoW. The same goes for damage healing tanking etc. EQ2 isn't some tactical revolution in MMOs. Maybe there are different learning curves on the finer points of the game like spending talent/aa points of how to use certain skills in what situations, but that doesn't make either game retard proof or prevent anyone from leveling to max level in either game. Nor does it mean someone sucks if they don't like the game.
Just because this guy doesn't share your opinion of the game doesn't mean you can label him a hater and then say he sucks. I think you misread the part of his post you highlighted.
Here here, exactly the response I would have made if I was'nt lazy as hell lol!
So yeah, I'll call you a bad player. You can't kill grey mobs. You can't differentiate good items from bad items. You obviously don't take advantage of EVERY type of quest to level and make your gaming experience more enjoyable. I see it in all types of posts complaining about the same things you do, and just like you, they don't widen their own ways of getting from point A to point B, but instead take the "most obvious" path and then complain how it's boring or repetitive.
Originally posted by Vrazule
In EQ2, battle takes forever and I always had opportunities to make mistakes and still survive the battle. I also feel my time is much more rewarded than it did in EQ2, especially as an avid soloer. I could even do group instances at a higher level and still get rewards that would be useful to me. In EQ2, I could only do the solo instances, group instances couldn't be done unless they had been greyed out. I did not find the solo instances very rewarding nor did I find many of them that were actually fun to participate in, merely just a bunch of tunnels with little imagination put into them.
Do you see where you are mistaken? Let me explain.
AS AN AVID SOLOER:
A) He says in WoW he can solo group encounters that are still level appropriate and offer rewards that are also level appropriate.
He then says in EQ2 group instances become soloable WHEN THEY GREY out.
No where does he say he CANNOT kill grey con mobs. If you took the time to read the whole paragraph and follow what he says you might not have made that mistake. Reading that someone says they can't kill a grey con mob is just wishful reading on your part. Hope that clears it up for you.
You also keep talking about high level players in EQ2 ruining your group and complaining about this or that in your game, having to explain CC to a level 70 illusionist and then somehow you want to blame WoW? Bad players in EQ2 are somehow the fault of another game? You show that bad players are in all games with your own words. That doesn't mean you just in case you start misunderstanding what is written again. =P
Also what is up with making funny jibs about my forum handle? Lets be adults ok.
All I can say Bahamat is you're the most clueless person I've ever run into on these forums. It's amazing how you know exactly how I play and how well when I have given you no information to support your outrageous assumptions. I've played all of my MMO's fairly well. If I couldn't play a game well, I certainly wouldn't be able to figure out whether I like raiding or not or form an opinion on solo vs. group play. If I were even remotely as bad of a player as you make me out to be, I wouldn't be able to form an opinion one way or the other. Go back to your mom's basement kiddo and stay there till you figure things out a bit.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
All I can say Bahamat is you're the most clueless person I've ever run into on these forums. It's amazing how you know exactly how I play and how well when I have given you no information to support your outrageous assumptions. I've played all of my MMO's fairly well. If I couldn't play a game well, I certainly wouldn't be able to figure out whether I like raiding or not or form an opinion on solo vs. group play. If I were even remotely as bad of a player as you make me out to be, I wouldn't be able to form an opinion one way or the other. Go back to your mom's basement kiddo and stay there till you figure things out a bit.
LOL, wow, a simple bahamut is right and Vrazule is wrong would suffice. You didn't have to go to all that trouble to prove it. Man, when you dig a hole, you go all out. Reminds me of a cornered rat, all he's got left is his bite. Look, you claim the solo game doesn't give good rewards, and yet I'm wearing several pieces of solo loot, that I got solo, that are best in game. You were simply wrong, period. You can't kill green mobs, yet several players farm heroic instances by themselves all the time. I make good my arguments, and you resort to whatever that was. I can see why you play alone now.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
Do you see where you are mistaken? Let me explain. AS AN AVID SOLOER: A) He says in WoW he can solo group encounters that are still level appropriate and offer rewards that are also level appropriate. He then says in EQ2 group instances become soloable WHEN THEY GREY out. No where does he say he CANNOT kill grey con mobs. If you took the time to read the whole paragraph and follow what he says you might not have made that mistake. Reading that someone says they can't kill a grey con mob is just wishful reading on your part. Hope that clears it up for you. This is all just crap because of a typo. Seriously, you're smarter than that. Many EQ2 group instances are soloable when they are still green. Also, many, and I'm not talking about the 100 raiders on each server, but thousands of players, farm green instances for masters and money all the time. Plus the fact that he doesn't necessarily HAVE to solo heroics as there actually are solo dungeons available, unlike ANY other game. I do agree, however that until RoK, the solo instances have been below par. There are a few very good ones, but for the most part, soloing used to be pretty lackluster. Although, solo rewards, and the ability to get good rewards solo, has always existed. RoK though, has really boosted the solo game, and if you read eq2flames or the forums, you'll notice the uproar pretty quick. You also keep talking about high level players in EQ2 ruining your group and complaining about this or that in your game, having to explain CC to a level 70 illusionist and then somehow you want to blame WoW? Bad players in EQ2 are somehow the fault of another game? You show that bad players are in all games with your own words. That doesn't mean you just in case you start misunderstanding what is written again. =P I never said all bad players came from WoW. My only point is that WoW doesn't make players any better because it's too easy. There are bad players in both games. There are good players in both games. Sometimes, people can get a good idea about how an MMO works from WoW and come to EQ2, or any other game, and do quite well. I'm not blaming WoW for bad players. If any of my statements proclaim this, then I will take it back. Also what is up with making funny jibs about my forum handle? Lets be adults ok. Is this to me? I didn't jib anything. I'm not even quite sure what you mean. Your handle is fine, I like it. I do not disrespect your forum handle at all. Cheers.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
You said that Vz admitted he could not even kill grey mobs and then went on a spree about him admitting he was a bad player. I simply showed you were you misread his statements and that your conclusions were indeed wrong. I'm still not even sure you see your mistake, but at least I tried.
You are also wasting time trying to debate with me how solo friendly dungeons are in EQ2, because I didn't make any such claims one way or another. I just pointed out your mistake in reading and how you use that incorrectly to discredit someone for something they never said.
Also twice in this thread you have called me 'daffidill' and it isn't the first time you done such.
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I suppose it depends on how you see his comment. I see it as an explanation of how popular a game is and that is how it's determined as great or not. You obviously see different criteria for that determination, but a lot of people don't see things that way. I'm of his opinion. If a game is very popular, then there must be something or somethings that make it great. Which game gets all the critical merits and will likely go down in history, EQ2 or WoW? Even games like the original EQ, while heralded as the vanguard of the MMO genre, it is completely eclipsed by WoW. And while people like you continue to view old school games with rose tinted glasses, it does not change the fact that WoW is considered not only a great game, but the best that has yet to come out in the genre.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
In my humble experience, the thing that has always appealed to me the most in EQ2 that I cannot seem to find in WoW is the level of immersion involved and the pride the players place in their characters.
EQ2 appeals to my almost o.c.d. nature to perfect my characters and gives me hundreds of unique and difference aspects to do so... To me the tradeskilling system is it's biggest draw, not its most time-consuming flaw.
WoW on the other hand appeals to my need to be able to "just jump in" and to be able to accomplish more, per hour, than on EQ2 ... but on the other hand - and it might be my EQ & EQ2 backgrounds - it never seems as satisfying because I didn't have to do as much to "earn it".
I would like to say I am a current subscriber to wow also played both Wow and EQ2 at launch. Now for my thoughts WOOT.
I like both games, one is just easier then the other. Wow is just a hell of of a lot easier to play its a fact nobody is denying here. But EQ2 was always atleast for the time I played it way more Immersive, then wow.. That is where you draw the line. Do you want a quick reward for leveling completing a quest, or would you like to feel involved or apart of the world? Now i can't speak much because I never maxed out my EQ2 character, But what i remember from those years ago ( Before they changed EQ2 with the Quil and Book quest marks above there heads) was walking in the city and hearing people shout they needed help and the full immersion of that. You didn't have to click on somebody or look for a question mark above somebodies head. You just followed the cries and moved to the NPC to see if you could help.
Immersion vs Instant Reward totally the up to the player what they want more from the game.
WoW has a more "arcady" feel to it which is why it's so popular, you can jump strait into it which is something you can't do with EQ2.
WoW also feels better presented, it's much easier to see whats going on when in combat etc. EQ2's combat is kinda messy, the sound is all out of time (or missing and seeming random volumes), animations are often out of time and not at consistent speeds. A lot of the time you don't know whether something hit or missed.
This lower quality feel is reflected through the whole game
Time to upgrade...or stick with WoW's less than demanding graphics....
Good luck!
As fast paced as WoW is, it is not an instant gratification game. Everything takes time, just not as long as EQ2 or any of those other more hardcore games. Yes, it's easier to get into, but it's not easy to master, especially if you play PvP, so I'm not understanding all of this crap about how much deeper and meaningful EQ2 is. I've played EQ2 and I didn't find any more meaning in that game than any other. Just because it takes longer to progess does not make it more meaningful. Nor does a greater variety of classes and skills do that when so many of them are either redundant or have little to no effect so you don't even put them on your hotbar.
WoW's story lines are easier to find, but it's no less creative than EQ2's and it's certainly not shallow. WoW's combat is less forgiving when it comes to making mistakes. Due to the speed of battle, you have to get things right the first time or you die. In EQ2, battle takes forever and I always had opportunities to make mistakes and still survive the battle. I also feel my time is much more rewarded than it did in EQ2, especially as an avid soloer. I could even do group instances at a higher level and still get rewards that would be useful to me. In EQ2, I could only do the solo instances, group instances couldn't be done unless they had been greyed out. I did not find the solo instances very rewarding nor did I find many of them that were actually fun to participate in, merely just a bunch of tunnels with little imagination put into them.
There are a lot more reasons why WoW is the more popular and more preferred game. I don't even really need to list them as WoW's subscription numbers should be enough for most people to tell them it's a fun and engaging game and for most people, the best MMO out there currently.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
You pretty much answered your own question of what makes EQ2 a better game. It takes better players. I'm sorry you weren't good enough to play, but considering the numbers, and the people I meet in game all the time, the bad players certainly outnumber the good ones. You've already admitted, and wrote what you wrote, but don't feel bad, I'm not very good at donkey kong. So there are some games people play well, and others, well...
EQ2 is definitely a better game than WoW, in almost every way. I even have the WoW-boi's to prove it with their own admissions. WoW is a good game, but there are definitely better games.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
I think you misunderstood what was written.
It is just silly to state that people aren't somehow 'good' enough to play EQ2 and that is why they liked another game better. It doesn't take a NASA scientist to play an MMO since they all pretty much play the same exact way. If someone isn't skilled in EQ2 they aren't going to suddenly become a good player in another game. People are either going to be good at quest based MMOs or they aren't.
**I'm only comparing Everquest style games, not twitch or pvp aspects. Nuke, heal, stun, chop, yadda yadda**
Blaming people computers being the problem or them sucking isn't very reasonable.
Never liked WoW so its easy to say EQ2 is a better game, but thats my opinion.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
I don't have the slightest idea overall what people are playing or what game they are going to.
My "personal" experience is I was in a fairly hard core raiding guild.
RoK came out and everyone started doing their own thing.
About half our guild members have left the guild (not even sure where they went or if they quit). I know a couple were giving accounts to friends .. so that was why they disbanded.
We went from raiding 5 nights a week... to.. well since RoK we've had a total of 3..
I honestly see where if we don't find "new" people or get the old ones back we won't be able to do the raids as a guild.
That isn't a commentary on the overall game. I just didn't expect our guild to implode after the expansion.
However, we've had a lot of people leaving guilds in other games due to "boredom".
And no.. before you ask we do NOT play WoW.
Saying that it takes more skill to play EQ2 than it does another MMO is just flat out silly. It isn't like someone can't level on under conned monsters in any game on the market and it is somehow a feature exclusive to WoW. A bad player in EQ2 is going to be a bad player in WoW or any other game. Just like an exceptional player in EQ2 is going to excel in whatever game they play.
Its not like crowd control is some totally different concept in EQ2 than it is in WoW. The same goes for damage healing tanking etc. EQ2 isn't some tactical revolution in MMOs. Maybe there are different learning curves on the finer points of the game like spending talent/aa points of how to use certain skills in what situations, but that doesn't make either game retard proof or prevent anyone from leveling to max level in either game. Nor does it mean someone sucks if they don't like the game.
Just because this guy doesn't share your opinion of the game doesn't mean you can label him a hater and then say he sucks. I think you misread the part of his post you highlighted.
Bahamut, well said.
Where do you get off calling me a bad player. You don't have a clue bub. I've been playing these games since EQ beta and I've played just about all of them. Dislike for a game's play style does not make one a bad player. What it does mean is that games like EQ and EQ2 are boring as hell to me. They're grindy to the extreme, they only reward hardcore and raiders with the best gear and they make leveling solo a pain in the ass. But there is nothing difficult about that, it's just plain tedious. You are one arrogant and assuming person.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Grindy (grinding) seems to be a catch phrase now-adays. Grinding measures the level of repetition to get things done in a game. A more grindy game would have more repetition, obviously, than a less grindy atmosphere. I would venture to say that EQ2 is one of the least grindy games of its genre. WoW tries to reduce repetition by making levels unimportant to the point of almost non-existant. The problem is, there is very little difference in the things you do in game to gain those levels. Fight mobs and do quests.
The mobs are cool, but they're never alive long enough to see what they do. Solo mobs are just bumps in the road. Group mobs can be tough but only the names and sometimes in numbers that would make winning so lucky it takes all the strategy out of it. The raids are too scripted to the point of "follow the script, win the battle". Now there is some strategy in WoW, and there are tough places, but it is noticably less than a lot of places in EQ2.
The quests are standard, go get this, and take this to X. You have protection quests where you protect someone or something, and you even have quests that you have to do something "out of the ordinary" to get it started. I'll admit there are fun and imaginative quests in WoW, but EQ2 has them in spades, plus has "quest type" actions that never appear in WoW. EQ2 has collection quests, and exploration quests, language quests, and even knowledge quests that make you fight better against certain type of creatures. Everyone speaks the same language, and that is completely ridiculous where in EQ2, if I can't speak their language, how am I going to get any quests from him?
Also, you mention that "hardcore raiding" gets the best rewards, when in reality, some of the BEST items in the game are from solo and group quests and dungeons. We're a top raiding guild on our server, and there are some quests, solo and group, and places, again solo and group, that we are required to get certain items NEEDED to beat raid mobs. In fact, Druesilla, a GROUP mob, dropped a fabled robe that was the best thing I've ever seen in the game. I'm currently using a fabled dagger I got in a GROUP dungeon.
So yeah, I'll call you a bad player. You can't kill grey mobs. You can't differentiate good items from bad items. You obviously don't take advantage of EVERY type of quest to level and make your gaming experience more enjoyable. I see it in all types of posts complaining about the same things you do, and just like you, they don't widen their own ways of getting from point A to point B, but instead take the "most obvious" path and then complain how it's boring or repetitive.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
I completely agree with you Daffodill. Although I have seen WoW players come over to EQ2, and have actually explained to a 70+ ILLUSIONIST what crowd control means, in general your statement is correct. I still stand behind what I've said and will show him where he is absolutely wrong.
As far as sharing opinions of certain aspects of EQ2, that's not a problem. I wish the combat was more like Vanguard, I wish the tradeskilling was more like Horizons ( I completely dislike rare harvests), and I wish there wasn't as many zones. There are a lot of things in EQ2 I wish were different, and I'll discuss those all day long. But there is a difference between complaining about the way the game is, and the way the game seems because they are too narrow minded to use the tools given to us in the game to circumvent.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
WoW Soloquesting is more linear for finding the quests
you will find ocassional WOW quests in middle of nowhere but those quests are uncommon
EQ2 quests emphasize exploring the world to find them, many quests are hidden/scattered all over
(EQ2 questing is linear - but not as linear as WOW)
both games are fun -- cant go wrong with playing either
EQ2 fan sites
In the end though it comes down to this "Play what you like and to hell with what others think!"
No signature, I don't have a pen
I played the first EQ and loved it. I also played the EQ II at launch and hated it, just like you I went to Wow and have been there ever since. I download EQ II not that long ago for the second time and still didn't like it as much as I like WoW.
Sorry but I am not with you on this one.
Here here, exactly the response I would have made if I was'nt lazy as hell lol!
No signature, I don't have a pen
Do you see where you are mistaken? Let me explain.
AS AN AVID SOLOER:
A) He says in WoW he can solo group encounters that are still level appropriate and offer rewards that are also level appropriate.
No where does he say he CANNOT kill grey con mobs. If you took the time to read the whole paragraph and follow what he says you might not have made that mistake. Reading that someone says they can't kill a grey con mob is just wishful reading on your part. Hope that clears it up for you.
You also keep talking about high level players in EQ2 ruining your group and complaining about this or that in your game, having to explain CC to a level 70 illusionist and then somehow you want to blame WoW? Bad players in EQ2 are somehow the fault of another game? You show that bad players are in all games with your own words. That doesn't mean you just in case you start misunderstanding what is written again. =P
Also what is up with making funny jibs about my forum handle? Lets be adults ok.
Cheers.
All I can say Bahamat is you're the most clueless person I've ever run into on these forums. It's amazing how you know exactly how I play and how well when I have given you no information to support your outrageous assumptions. I've played all of my MMO's fairly well. If I couldn't play a game well, I certainly wouldn't be able to figure out whether I like raiding or not or form an opinion on solo vs. group play. If I were even remotely as bad of a player as you make me out to be, I wouldn't be able to form an opinion one way or the other. Go back to your mom's basement kiddo and stay there till you figure things out a bit.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
LOL, wow, a simple bahamut is right and Vrazule is wrong would suffice. You didn't have to go to all that trouble to prove it. Man, when you dig a hole, you go all out. Reminds me of a cornered rat, all he's got left is his bite. Look, you claim the solo game doesn't give good rewards, and yet I'm wearing several pieces of solo loot, that I got solo, that are best in game. You were simply wrong, period. You can't kill green mobs, yet several players farm heroic instances by themselves all the time. I make good my arguments, and you resort to whatever that was. I can see why you play alone now.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
You said that Vz admitted he could not even kill grey mobs and then went on a spree about him admitting he was a bad player. I simply showed you were you misread his statements and that your conclusions were indeed wrong. I'm still not even sure you see your mistake, but at least I tried.
You are also wasting time trying to debate with me how solo friendly dungeons are in EQ2, because I didn't make any such claims one way or another. I just pointed out your mistake in reading and how you use that incorrectly to discredit someone for something they never said.
Also twice in this thread you have called me 'daffidill' and it isn't the first time you done such.
Cheers