I personally enjoy raiding. So... works for me. BTW, I'd raid with no epics, and most raiders I talk to agree. Its about the working together, and seeing the content, and enjoying yourself with a bunch of cool people.
Yes, little baubles to say you've beaten the Temple of Relentless Doom are fun, but overall, I would be perhaps happier if the raiding rewards were just neat mounts, pets, novelty items, etc. That would almost make it more fun, IMHO. The items are just there so you can work out a progression, and so each week the attempts become a little easier. Its a decent system, even if I wish there was a way to quick-equip guildies. If you can really get raid-quality gear from crafting, you actually may be able to quick-equip guildies, and bypass the need to regrind old instances.
BTW, to all the haters - raiding is the only form of content unique to MMOs. Partying has been done in non MMOs (Guild Wars and Diablo, notably, but also games like Halo), PvP is done all the time in non-MMOs, single player RPGs have the solo content, but only MMOs have raids. So basically, if you don't like raids, maybe its not US who are playing the wrong sort of game, neh?
know what my favorite part of this wonderful post is?
"BTW, to all the haters - raiding is the only form of content unique to MMOs. Partying has been done in non MMOs (Guild Wars and Diablo, notably, but also games like Halo), PvP is done all the time in non-MMOs, single player RPGs have the solo content, but only MMOs have raids. So basically, if you don't like raids, maybe its not US who are playing the wrong sort of game, neh? "
omg yes please read that. read it over and over again till u realize u wana play counterstrike instead and stop trying to screw around with the fundamentals of the MMORPG template. WoW has 10million subscribers now? what do u think works for MMORPGs.
You might want to rethink that comparison 80-90% of WoW's population doesn't raid or even like to raid. So if they got rid of it they would still be at 8-9 million assuming every raider left immediately.
Just out of curiosity, if the end game isn't raiding, what could it be? I mean, I'm not saying that raiding is the only option for end-game, but of all the complaints I've heard about raiding, I've never really heard a cogent recitation of what the alternative should be.
With the new information coming out are you starting to see the writting on the wall? Are you at least starting to doubt your certainty that I and a few others were wrong when we said this game would be an item-centric raid fest? Some of you will remember the long, long arguments we had on this subject on this board. I mostly remember Aelfin and Sturmrabe being the most vocal in saying we were wrong. But there were others too. So I'm just wondering if your certainty is begining to waver. I could dig up some of the info I've read recently but I'm going to assume that you've all read it already. I'll just sum things up a little. There will be at least eight raid dungeons in the game AT RELEASE. Each of those will have three tiers. To move on to the second tier of any raid you will first have to beat one of the 1st tiers and you will need to equip your guild members with 1st tier items before you'll have a chance at beating a 2nd tier of a dungeon. Equiping everyone will mean repeatedly running 1st tiers to get drops for everyone. Then you will move on to the 2nd tiers of the dungeons and go through the same process again, upgrading your items so you can move on to the 3rd tiers. Starting to sound painfully familiar? Raid grinding anyone? If I remember right they said it will take something like 3 hours to beat a dungeon which I assume means 3 hours for a tier. And of course they are going to give the most unrealistically optomistic number they possibly can so I think it's safe to assume that in reality it will probably be more like 5-6 hours per raid per tier, and that's probably only if everything goes really well. And then, being wildly optomistic, you will have to run that same raid at least 24 times to equip everyone in your raid group and that's assuming that you only have 24 people in your guild to equip. And then, you will most likely need equipment from each of the first tiers before you can move on to a second tier so after you raid that one tier of that one dungeon at least 24 times you still have 7 other 1st tiers to raid at least 24 times before you will move on to the 2nd tiers. Ugg. So this isn't going to be a raiding game, huh? It's not going to be item-centric? Then what is this all about? Just get real here for a minute and ask yourself why they would put all this in, why they would go to the trouble to set up this huge raiding time sink if there were really any viable alternative to it. Athelan said himself that nobody would raid if they could get the same rewards some other way. Ok, I still can't prove concisively that I'm right and this game will revolve around PvE raiding. But does anyone really still want to argue that it won't be? I stand by my long held position that people who don't want to play another raid-fest game should stay away from AoC. And that's not a slam against the game. It will be what it will be, that doesn't mean it will be a bad game. It just means that it will be a bad game for people who don't want to devote their lives to raiding. If anyone still doubts what the end-game will be like in AoC I think they are being foolish. I still can't prove that I was right....what, two years ago? At least that long. I still have to fall back on the statement that time will tell. But unless you're in denial you should be starting to see the writting on the wall.
Read the 2nd to last paragraph. Also, highlight url+copy it+paste in web search bar,for those who might actually manually copy the whole thing up till now.
"You might want to rethink that comparison 80-90% of WoW's population doesn't raid or even like to raid. So if they got rid of it they would still be at 8-9 million assuming every raider left immediately."
where do u get that number? i played wow for just under 3 years and everyday all day there were "LFG scholo or LF1M ZG or LF1M healer" on and on and on. as for guilds going on the larger raids like MC or BT, 100's of those on the server i played on.
alot of ppl love the grouping aspect where working together brings rewards threw a story driven scripted event. WoW's pvp was gross tho i admit. if AoC can pull off PvP in a new, fun way and still offer deep story driven PvE. my real life is going down the gutter:(
I personally enjoy raiding. So... works for me. BTW, I'd raid with no epics, and most raiders I talk to agree. Its about the working together, and seeing the content, and enjoying yourself with a bunch of cool people.
Yes, little baubles to say you've beaten the Temple of Relentless Doom are fun, but overall, I would be perhaps happier if the raiding rewards were just neat mounts, pets, novelty items, etc. That would almost make it more fun, IMHO. The items are just there so you can work out a progression, and so each week the attempts become a little easier. Its a decent system, even if I wish there was a way to quick-equip guildies. If you can really get raid-quality gear from crafting, you actually may be able to quick-equip guildies, and bypass the need to regrind old instances.
BTW, to all the haters - raiding is the only form of content unique to MMOs. Partying has been done in non MMOs (Guild Wars and Diablo, notably, but also games like Halo), PvP is done all the time in non-MMOs, single player RPGs have the solo content, but only MMOs have raids. So basically, if you don't like raids, maybe its not US who are playing the wrong sort of game, neh?
know what my favorite part of this wonderful post is?
"BTW, to all the haters - raiding is the only form of content unique to MMOs. Partying has been done in non MMOs (Guild Wars and Diablo, notably, but also games like Halo), PvP is done all the time in non-MMOs, single player RPGs have the solo content, but only MMOs have raids. So basically, if you don't like raids, maybe its not US who are playing the wrong sort of game, neh? "
omg yes please read that. read it over and over again till u realize u wana play counterstrike instead and stop trying to screw around with the fundamentals of the MMORPG template. WoW has 10million subscribers now? what do u think works for MMORPGs.
You might want to rethink that comparison 80-90% of WoW's population doesn't raid or even like to raid. So if they got rid of it they would still be at 8-9 million assuming every raider left immediately.
The thing that most concerns the pvp crowd of this game i believe is this:
Most pvpers will just rush to lvl 80. Why? because end-game pvp is where its at. Now at lvl 80 will gear mean anything pvp wise? Can i go to my guilds crafter and tell him make me a sword and be just as good as the next guy?
I ll give an excapmle to this: lets say my guild holds one the keeps, and all we do is log in to defend it and siege other people's keeps, in short only pvp all day long. Now another guild has cleared every raid, boss, quest, ie things we have not done. When they come to siege my keep and assuming equal skill lvls, will they have an advantage over us just because of raid gear, and if so how big???????
Any1 who knows answer plz
A simple yes or no answer will be apreciated. Not crafting is the wild card or crafted items have more sockets, i dont wanna use my sword to plug a stereo and tv in it, so i dont care about its sockets if u know what i mean
You asked, "why do you think that you (or anyone who asks) deserves all the answers?"
My response is this: Because we are consumers purchasing a product. Yes I do believe that we have a right to know important details about the product we are considering purchasing. If I'm thinking about buying a new computer and I ask the salesman how much RAM it has and he says, "Enough", I'm not going to be satisfied with that answer. Why should it be any different when it comes to online games?
If a developer tells me that he has a system whereby PvP equipment will be earned through PvP and I ask him how that is going to work and he responds by saying, "I don't have to tell you", I am not going to be satisfied with that answer. And that is what happened in that thread you linked.
If I try to pin a dev down by asking him if raid drops will directly or indirectly (through crafting materials for example) provide an advantage in PvP and he avoids giving a straight answer to the question then I'm going to suspect that he is hiding something. And that is how the devs of AoC respond to questions like that. Seriously, you don't have to take my word for it. I encourage anyone who cares about this to go to the official forums and see if you can get a straight yes or no answer to that question.
Second, I do not expect people to believe what I say just because I say it. I have stated many times that I can't prove anything. I also know that I'm hardly the only person who has figured out that developers and PR people have a tendancy to bend the truth. But I have read a great deal about AoC, had discussions with the devs, read discussions other had with them, dug through old quotes, the FAQ, and I've been following it's development almost from the beginning (as a hopeful fan at first). So it is possible that I might have a tiny bit of insight into it that some latecomers might not have. That doesn't necessarily mean that I'm right. But is it somehow wrong for me to state my beliefs about the game so that others who might actually share my concerns will be alerted to the possibility and will then be inspired to research the game more thouroghly on their own?
And I'm also aware that just as there are people who would shy away from the game if they believe what I say there are also people out there who would be drawn more strongly to it if they believe what I say.
And at the end you said, "Seeing posts like this, and the holier, and smarter than thou attitudes are amsuing!"
I could say right back at ya. But I do make an effort to keep personal insults out of my posts.
The thing that most concerns the pvp crowd of this game i believe is this:
Most pvpers will just rush to lvl 80. Why? because end-game pvp is where its at. Now at lvl 80 will gear mean anything pvp wise? Can i go to my guilds crafter and tell him make me a sword and be just as good as the next guy?
I ll give an excapmle to this: lets say my guild holds one the keeps, and all we do is log in to defend it and siege other people's keeps, in short only pvp all day long. Now another guild has cleared every raid, boss, quest, ie things we have not done. When they come to siege my keep and assuming equal skill lvls, will they have an advantage over us just because of raid gear, and if so how big???????
Any1 who knows answer plz A simple yes or no answer will be apreciated. Not crafting is the wild card or crafted items have more sockets, i dont wanna use my sword to plug a stereo and tv in it, so i dont care about its sockets if u know what i mean
According to the developers more PvP oriented gear will be obtained by PvPing. All of that fancy raid gear that the other side has helps them in PvE encounters, but less so in PvP.
Basically there are going to be three types of gear in the game. PvP, PvE & Crafted (which can be slotted for either PvE or PvP).
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
"You might want to rethink that comparison 80-90% of WoW's population doesn't raid or even like to raid. So if they got rid of it they would still be at 8-9 million assuming every raider left immediately." where do u get that number? i played wow for just under 3 years and everyday all day there were "LFG scholo or LF1M ZG or LF1M healer" on and on and on. as for guilds going on the larger raids like MC or BT, 100's of those on the server i played on. alot of ppl love the grouping aspect where working together brings rewards threw a story driven scripted event. WoW's pvp was gross tho i admit. if AoC can pull off PvP in a new, fun way and still offer deep story driven PvE. my real life is going down the gutter:(
Came from Blizzard itself. Kaplan even admitted it. I don't feel like rehashing it.
If I can remember correctly, the guild didn't need to get all the members the Tier 1 items, but just have had to completed the Tier 1 raid instance to be able to continue to the next.
So I am thinking it won't be too much of a item grind, which is what I really hated about how WoW turned out. I have high hopes for this game.
Ok, Baikal I'll respond to a few things. You asked, "why do you think that you (or anyone who asks) deserves all the answers?" My response is this: Because we are consumers purchasing a product. Yes I do believe that we have a right to know important details about the product we are considering purchasing. If I'm thinking about buying a new computer and I ask the salesman how much RAM it has and he says, "Enough", I'm not going to be satisfied with that answer. Why should it be any different when it comes to online games? If a developer tells me that he has a system whereby PvP equipment will be earned through PvP and I ask him how that is going to work and he responds by saying, "I don't have to tell you", I am not going to be satisfied with that answer. And that is what happened in that thread you linked. If I try to pin a dev down by asking him if raid drops will directly or indirectly (through crafting materials for example) provide an advantage in PvP and he avoids giving a straight answer to the question then I'm going to suspect that he is hiding something. And that is how the devs of AoC respond to questions like that. Seriously, you don't have to take my word for it. I encourage anyone who cares about this to go to the official forums and see if you can get a straight yes or no answer to that question. Second, I do not expect people to believe what I say just because I say it. I have stated many times that I can't prove anything. I also know that I'm hardly the only person who has figured out that developers and PR people have a tendancy to bend the truth. But I have read a great deal about AoC, had discussions with the devs, read discussions other had with them, dug through old quotes, the FAQ, and I've been following it's development almost from the beginning (as a hopeful fan at first). So it is possible that I might have a tiny bit of insight into it that some latecomers might not have. That doesn't necessarily mean that I'm right. But is it somehow wrong for me to state my beliefs about the game so that others who might actually share my concerns will be alerted to the possibility and will then be inspired to research the game more thouroghly on their own? And I'm also aware that just as there are people who would shy away from the game if they believe what I say there are also people out there who would be drawn more strongly to it if they believe what I say. And at the end you said, "Seeing posts like this, and the holier, and smarter than thou attitudes are amsuing!" I could say right back at ya. But I do make an effort to keep personal insults out of my posts.
You know yourself they dont have the answers. This is not programing and not 3D development. This is about configuring the game. The configuration aka fine tuning might change 1 hour before servers open up for release. The configuration will change with every patch. This is how software works. Developers will fine tune until customers are satisfied.
I can not belief a company is putting lots of time into developing 3 different kind of items without trying to balance them for the big picture. And balancing again is not programing, but changing a few numbers in a configuration (database).
Since it is all about numbers in a database nobody knows nothing. No NDA breach can tell you anything, because the numbers might change. It is very possible that the "perfect" gear is a mixture from PvP, PvE and crafted. You cant know. The configuration will change 1-5 times before the first character hits 80. It is very possible that you will drop a piece of raid gear for a crafted piece because you got a uber gem that beats the epic one within your build while it wouldnt within the build of someone else.
AmazingAveryAge of Conan AdvocateMemberUncommonPosts: 7,188
Everyone is an expert because they have played the game, and all the raid end game content that is there, and knows exactly how it plays out with crafting and PvP.
Everyone is an expert because they have played the game, and all the raid end game content that is there, and knows exactly how it plays out with crafting and PvP. Job done.
Its only human that people, especially experienced mmo players, assume and comapare with games they played.
The biggest adventure is to see and learn what a dev team is trying to offer. The game might suck at some point, but that way you had fun till then
AmazingAveryAge of Conan AdvocateMemberUncommonPosts: 7,188
Originally posted by eugam
Originally posted by AmazingAvery
Everyone is an expert because they have played the game, and all the raid end game content that is there, and knows exactly how it plays out with crafting and PvP. Job done.
Its only human that people, especially experienced mmo players, assume and comapare with games they played.
The biggest adventure is to see and learn what a dev team is trying to offer. The game might suck at some point, but that way you had fun till then
All im saying is the posters assumption was put across half a year or more ago. I mean I assume on a lot of things to do with the game too, but seeing and hearing the information without NDA was an eye opener in places. Re-afirming previous expectations are on track, and shaping up nicely.
If I can remember correctly, the guild didn't need to get all the members the Tier 1 items, but just have had to completed the Tier 1 raid instance to be able to continue to the next. So I am thinking it won't be too much of a item grind, which is what I really hated about how WoW turned out. I have high hopes for this game.
Well, it can be a item grind if tier 3 items are the best items in the game... I don't know if this is true, but I hope for the item-grind haters that it is easier to obtain items a quicker easier way. If not, the game is not really casual player friendly and lose a lot players who want to play something else then a item grind game (WoW). If it's easy to get the best items (don't know if you can make the best items with crafting) it will be a great game and the dungeons will add some depth in the game, more lore to discover.
I think you can define MMO players across scales for 3 factors:
- PvP 1 – 2 – 3 – 4 – 5 PvE
- Hardcore 1 – 2 – 3 – 4 – 5 Casual
- Solo 1 – 2 – 3 – 4 – 5 Group
On a 5-point scale for each of these factors, most people probably fall towards one end of each scale.
I myself would probably be 2 / 4 / 2.
What you look for in a game will be determined by your preferences.
I’d like a game with quests, etc but with lots of PvP options, something that’s quite casual where I can do most things solo but group when I get the chance.
I’m sure successful companies must research their target audience prior to specifying game content. Otherwise, they’d just churn out crud that appeals to no-one.
I could be very wrong but I’m inclined to agree with the figures suggest elsewhere in this post the most WoW players NEVER raid. I certainly don’t. I’ve played the game constantly since it was released and I’ve never tackled anything much past ZF in terms of instances and stuff like that.
The reasons for this are numerous, but why do I keep playing? Well, Blizzard have tuned the game so well that once I reach a glass ceiling with one character, I just roll another and the time it takes to progress keeps me occupied (and playing) for ages. That explained about a years worth of game-play. After the first year, that style of gaming wore thin and now I just make twinks with my remaining cash and pray for a new game to play. And in a nutshell that’s the only reason I play WoW – there is no decent alternative!
In terms of AoC, Funcom has a chance to change that model and make a game that has genuine longevity AND is successful. To do this, they’d need to cater to the majority of people who don’t raid, as well as those who do. They’d also need to create a game that consistently gives casuals something to do. Unless you’re so casual you’re in a coma, you’re eventually going to max your character out level-wise. Where WoW has left me unsatisfied is that raids take too long and require serious dedication and end-game PvP is the very definition of boring (for me at least). AoC could make raids open to all, but if they make them all 25-maners that’s not going to be the case. So a casual PvE’er ain’t gonna be happy about with that unless they pump out other content quicktime (which they won’t, otherwise it’ll devalue raid kit too quickly). Hopefully, they’ll still catch the casual PvP audience with varied and viable PvP options because I’m in that audience and I don’t want to be sad L
Certainly, the PvE content seems to be very WoW-ish in its format. I guess most people who bother to post on here are likely to be hardcore so they’ll love it. Either way, it’s all speculation. The very fact that the OP has put so many people noses out of joint indicates a lot of people are gagging for this game and hope that finally someone has created a genuine alternative to WoW.
Playing: Ableton Live 8 ~ ragequitcancelsubdeletegamesmashcomputerkillself ~
Thats the most encouraging news... I've been on the wire about passing on AoC altogether cause it was sounding like one of those low content PvP games where you level up and just PvP forever for no apparent purpose...
I like the item collection and exploration parts of MMORPGs more then anything. The PvP and especially guild battles are fun but just a side activity and if I have to do it too much becomes insanely boring...
I was kind of wanting to let this thread fade away now but there is one more thing I have to say regarding what Aryas touched on.
It seems that whenever I have one of these discussions I always end up talking about PvP gear. But there is more to this. I enjoy PvP but I also enjoy PvE in small groups or solo. And just like anyone playing a progression game I need to have rewards as goals.
Regarding small group and solo PvE I don't think the devs are even trying to hide the fact that those playstyles will be less rewarding than raiding. Less progression and less content at high levels for those playstyles. Like most games of this type the small group and solo PvE player will very likely run out of things to do very soon after hitting max level.
I know that a lot of people think that that is the way it should be. They will ask, "Why should a solo or small group player get the same rewards as a raider." But those same people would scream bloody murder if the situation were reversed and small group / solo progression continued while raiding languished and died.
The thing is; in a progression game such as this every playstyle needs ongoing content and goals to achieve. Take the rewards away from raiding and raiding dies. But by the same token if you don't provide goals for small groups and solo then those playstyles die.
My problems with AoC are not entirely centered around the question of PvP rewards versus PvE rewards. Another big problem I have is that I see the same old pattern developing with this game that we've seen before. Where solo and small group PvE at max level is neglegted by the devs and basically just ends.
having a NDA which is not going to be released till the game is launched i think is very bad and might be hurting the game actually. Everytime i ask a question it is: i think it will be...i have faith in.....it might be like this.... etc.
Personally...i cancelled my preorder cause soo many of my questions people supposedly cannot answer, and so many parts of the game, especially seiging, needs to be stressed test. Not just by closed beta testers, but mass amounts. Otherwise there is NO way to know how these systems will function in Live. I'll wait a few weeks to a month after and see how the game is doing. Maybe i'll buy it then. I hate being all doom and gloom but there are so many uncertainties, and i dont feel like preordering another DnL/VG/etc (not comparing it those games,, just don't want to be hosed again)
Its prolly already been said by people who know a small bit about AoC, but just in case;
yes the game has raids. do you have to do the raids? no. crafted gear will be easy to get hold of and almost as good as the raid gear and sometimes even better. Also this game is not wow, who wins combat is not decided by the gear alone it is largely skill based. the raid conetnet is there simply for people who enjoy raids, the fact there are a good amount of raids at release shows FC have put in some hard work.
I think you can define MMO players across scales for 3 factors: - PvP 1 – 2 – 3 – 4 – 5 PvE - Hardcore 1 – 2 – 3 – 4 – 5 Casual - Solo 1 – 2 – 3 – 4 – 5 Group On a 5-point scale for each of these factors, most people probably fall towards one end of each scale. I myself would probably be 2 / 4 / 2. What you look for in a game will be determined by your preferences. I’d like a game with quests, etc but with lots of PvP options, something that’s quite casual where I can do most things solo but group when I get the chance. I’m sure successful companies must research their target audience prior to specifying game content. Otherwise, they’d just churn out crud that appeals to no-one. I could be very wrong but I’m inclined to agree with the figures suggest elsewhere in this post the most WoW players NEVER raid. I certainly don’t. I’ve played the game constantly since it was released and I’ve never tackled anything much past ZF in terms of instances and stuff like that. The reasons for this are numerous, but why do I keep playing? Well, Blizzard have tuned the game so well that once I reach a glass ceiling with one character, I just roll another and the time it takes to progress keeps me occupied (and playing) for ages. That explained about a years worth of game-play. After the first year, that style of gaming wore thin and now I just make twinks with my remaining cash and pray for a new game to play. And in a nutshell that’s the only reason I play WoW – there is no decent alternative! In terms of AoC, Funcom has a chance to change that model and make a game that has genuine longevity AND is successful. To do this, they’d need to cater to the majority of people who don’t raid, as well as those who do. They’d also need to create a game that consistently gives casuals something to do. Unless you’re so casual you’re in a coma, you’re eventually going to max your character out level-wise. Where WoW has left me unsatisfied is that raids take too long and require serious dedication and end-game PvP is the very definition of boring (for me at least). AoC could make raids open to all, but if they make them all 25-maners that’s not going to be the case. So a casual PvE’er ain’t gonna be happy about with that unless they pump out other content quicktime (which they won’t, otherwise it’ll devalue raid kit too quickly). Hopefully, they’ll still catch the casual PvP audience with varied and viable PvP options because I’m in that audience and I don’t want to be sad L Certainly, the PvE content seems to be very WoW-ish in its format. I guess most people who bother to post on here are likely to be hardcore so they’ll love it. Either way, it’s all speculation. The very fact that the OP has put so many people noses out of joint indicates a lot of people are gagging for this game and hope that finally someone has created a genuine alternative to WoW.
Unfortunately the hardcore and group scales are often combined. This is what happened in WoW. If you do not believe me simply look up Rob Pardo's AGC talk
In fact I would go so far as to say some developers believe that solo can NOT be as hard or hardcore as grouping.
I had a number of argument on the AoC boards about this and it was a dev that was saying some of this stuff about complexity.
And when I brought in real complexity analysis and they just sat their stunned and then repeated the same old crap and told me to stop using math.
AoC is going to follow the WoW model because the designers believe it is correct. They are simply going to tweak it a bit.
They are wrong and I find it galling that people working on computer games don't even bother to talk with the programmers about complexity analysis and input size versus number of operations. But whatever people are hidebound especially in the RPG scene.
Once they figure out how to make raids recursive then I will think those monkies are "hardcore".
Comments
"BTW, to all the haters - raiding is the only form of content unique to MMOs. Partying has been done in non MMOs (Guild Wars and Diablo, notably, but also games like Halo), PvP is done all the time in non-MMOs, single player RPGs have the solo content, but only MMOs have raids. So basically, if you don't like raids, maybe its not US who are playing the wrong sort of game, neh? "
omg yes please read that. read it over and over again till u realize u wana play counterstrike instead and stop trying to screw around with the fundamentals of the MMORPG template. WoW has 10million subscribers now? what do u think works for MMORPGs.
You might want to rethink that comparison 80-90% of WoW's population doesn't raid or even like to raid. So if they got rid of it they would still be at 8-9 million assuming every raider left immediately.
I prefer perma-death hopscotch as an end-game.
Wow, this truly sucks. Oh well, another one bites the dust.
They said all the quest items would help, http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/ageofconanhyborianadventures/news.html?sid=6185031&mode=recent
Read the 2nd to last paragraph. Also, highlight url+copy it+paste in web search bar,for those who might actually manually copy the whole thing up till now.
"You might want to rethink that comparison 80-90% of WoW's population doesn't raid or even like to raid. So if they got rid of it they would still be at 8-9 million assuming every raider left immediately."
where do u get that number? i played wow for just under 3 years and everyday all day there were "LFG scholo or LF1M ZG or LF1M healer" on and on and on. as for guilds going on the larger raids like MC or BT, 100's of those on the server i played on.
alot of ppl love the grouping aspect where working together brings rewards threw a story driven scripted event. WoW's pvp was gross tho i admit. if AoC can pull off PvP in a new, fun way and still offer deep story driven PvE. my real life is going down the gutter:(
"BTW, to all the haters - raiding is the only form of content unique to MMOs. Partying has been done in non MMOs (Guild Wars and Diablo, notably, but also games like Halo), PvP is done all the time in non-MMOs, single player RPGs have the solo content, but only MMOs have raids. So basically, if you don't like raids, maybe its not US who are playing the wrong sort of game, neh? "
omg yes please read that. read it over and over again till u realize u wana play counterstrike instead and stop trying to screw around with the fundamentals of the MMORPG template. WoW has 10million subscribers now? what do u think works for MMORPGs.
You might want to rethink that comparison 80-90% of WoW's population doesn't raid or even like to raid. So if they got rid of it they would still be at 8-9 million assuming every raider left immediately.
95% of all statistics are completely made up.
The thing that most concerns the pvp crowd of this game i believe is this:
Most pvpers will just rush to lvl 80. Why? because end-game pvp is where its at. Now at lvl 80 will gear mean anything pvp wise? Can i go to my guilds crafter and tell him make me a sword and be just as good as the next guy?
I ll give an excapmle to this: lets say my guild holds one the keeps, and all we do is log in to defend it and siege other people's keeps, in short only pvp all day long. Now another guild has cleared every raid, boss, quest, ie things we have not done. When they come to siege my keep and assuming equal skill lvls, will they have an advantage over us just because of raid gear, and if so how big???????
Any1 who knows answer plz
A simple yes or no answer will be apreciated. Not crafting is the wild card or crafted items have more sockets, i dont wanna use my sword to plug a stereo and tv in it, so i dont care about its sockets if u know what i mean
Ok, Baikal I'll respond to a few things.
You asked, "why do you think that you (or anyone who asks) deserves all the answers?"
My response is this: Because we are consumers purchasing a product. Yes I do believe that we have a right to know important details about the product we are considering purchasing. If I'm thinking about buying a new computer and I ask the salesman how much RAM it has and he says, "Enough", I'm not going to be satisfied with that answer. Why should it be any different when it comes to online games?
If a developer tells me that he has a system whereby PvP equipment will be earned through PvP and I ask him how that is going to work and he responds by saying, "I don't have to tell you", I am not going to be satisfied with that answer. And that is what happened in that thread you linked.
If I try to pin a dev down by asking him if raid drops will directly or indirectly (through crafting materials for example) provide an advantage in PvP and he avoids giving a straight answer to the question then I'm going to suspect that he is hiding something. And that is how the devs of AoC respond to questions like that. Seriously, you don't have to take my word for it. I encourage anyone who cares about this to go to the official forums and see if you can get a straight yes or no answer to that question.
Second, I do not expect people to believe what I say just because I say it. I have stated many times that I can't prove anything. I also know that I'm hardly the only person who has figured out that developers and PR people have a tendancy to bend the truth. But I have read a great deal about AoC, had discussions with the devs, read discussions other had with them, dug through old quotes, the FAQ, and I've been following it's development almost from the beginning (as a hopeful fan at first). So it is possible that I might have a tiny bit of insight into it that some latecomers might not have. That doesn't necessarily mean that I'm right. But is it somehow wrong for me to state my beliefs about the game so that others who might actually share my concerns will be alerted to the possibility and will then be inspired to research the game more thouroghly on their own?
And I'm also aware that just as there are people who would shy away from the game if they believe what I say there are also people out there who would be drawn more strongly to it if they believe what I say.
And at the end you said, "Seeing posts like this, and the holier, and smarter than thou attitudes are amsuing!"
I could say right back at ya. But I do make an effort to keep personal insults out of my posts.
According to the developers more PvP oriented gear will be obtained by PvPing. All of that fancy raid gear that the other side has helps them in PvE encounters, but less so in PvP.
Basically there are going to be three types of gear in the game. PvP, PvE & Crafted (which can be slotted for either PvE or PvP).
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Why should u have as good gear as someone who try to get better gear if u dont wanna invest the time?
It a PvE game from 1 - 80 where u boost your stats with gear u looted from mobs why should that change?
U have a choice as PvPer u can PvP PvE 70/30 or however u like. (if u dont u dont get the gear)
He have a choice as a raider PvE PvP 70/30. (if he dont he dont get your keep)
Face it its a mmorpg where u advance and boost stats with gear and this is how it should be.
I cant answer your question but if u can boost your stats with sockets 1 socket could worth alot for a min max player.
But will it make a difference no in the end its comes down to knowledge of the game and classes.
PvE raid gear have to be better or there wouldnt be a point to raiding ppl play to boost stats and if they dont get better why raid?
Who cares about raiding? You have 80 levels to do other shit and theres 12 classes to play. Raiding isn't mandatory...just play the game.
Came from Blizzard itself. Kaplan even admitted it. I don't feel like rehashing it.
If I can remember correctly, the guild didn't need to get all the members the Tier 1 items, but just have had to completed the Tier 1 raid instance to be able to continue to the next.
So I am thinking it won't be too much of a item grind, which is what I really hated about how WoW turned out. I have high hopes for this game.
Osahar Ismassri
Conscript of King's Guard
http://guild-of-kings-guard.com/
I can not belief a company is putting lots of time into developing 3 different kind of items without trying to balance them for the big picture. And balancing again is not programing, but changing a few numbers in a configuration (database).
Since it is all about numbers in a database nobody knows nothing. No NDA breach can tell you anything, because the numbers might change. It is very possible that the "perfect" gear is a mixture from PvP, PvE and crafted. You cant know. The configuration will change 1-5 times before the first character hits 80. It is very possible that you will drop a piece of raid gear for a crafted piece because you got a uber gem that beats the epic one within your build while it wouldnt within the build of someone else.
Everyone is an expert because they have played the game, and all the raid end game content that is there, and knows exactly how it plays out with crafting and PvP.
Job done.
Its only human that people, especially experienced mmo players, assume and comapare with games they played.
The biggest adventure is to see and learn what a dev team is trying to offer. The game might suck at some point, but that way you had fun till then
Its only human that people, especially experienced mmo players, assume and comapare with games they played.
The biggest adventure is to see and learn what a dev team is trying to offer. The game might suck at some point, but that way you had fun till then
All im saying is the posters assumption was put across half a year or more ago. I mean I assume on a lot of things to do with the game too, but seeing and hearing the information without NDA was an eye opener in places. Re-afirming previous expectations are on track, and shaping up nicely.
Well, it can be a item grind if tier 3 items are the best items in the game... I don't know if this is true, but I hope for the item-grind haters that it is easier to obtain items a quicker easier way. If not, the game is not really casual player friendly and lose a lot players who want to play something else then a item grind game (WoW). If it's easy to get the best items (don't know if you can make the best items with crafting) it will be a great game and the dungeons will add some depth in the game, more lore to discover.
I think you can define MMO players across scales for 3 factors:
- PvP 1 – 2 – 3 – 4 – 5 PvE
- Hardcore 1 – 2 – 3 – 4 – 5 Casual
- Solo 1 – 2 – 3 – 4 – 5 Group
On a 5-point scale for each of these factors, most people probably fall towards one end of each scale.
I myself would probably be 2 / 4 / 2.
What you look for in a game will be determined by your preferences.
I’d like a game with quests, etc but with lots of PvP options, something that’s quite casual where I can do most things solo but group when I get the chance.
I’m sure successful companies must research their target audience prior to specifying game content. Otherwise, they’d just churn out crud that appeals to no-one.
I could be very wrong but I’m inclined to agree with the figures suggest elsewhere in this post the most WoW players NEVER raid. I certainly don’t. I’ve played the game constantly since it was released and I’ve never tackled anything much past ZF in terms of instances and stuff like that.
The reasons for this are numerous, but why do I keep playing? Well, Blizzard have tuned the game so well that once I reach a glass ceiling with one character, I just roll another and the time it takes to progress keeps me occupied (and playing) for ages. That explained about a years worth of game-play. After the first year, that style of gaming wore thin and now I just make twinks with my remaining cash and pray for a new game to play. And in a nutshell that’s the only reason I play WoW – there is no decent alternative!
In terms of AoC, Funcom has a chance to change that model and make a game that has genuine longevity AND is successful. To do this, they’d need to cater to the majority of people who don’t raid, as well as those who do. They’d also need to create a game that consistently gives casuals something to do. Unless you’re so casual you’re in a coma, you’re eventually going to max your character out level-wise. Where WoW has left me unsatisfied is that raids take too long and require serious dedication and end-game PvP is the very definition of boring (for me at least). AoC could make raids open to all, but if they make them all 25-maners that’s not going to be the case. So a casual PvE’er ain’t gonna be happy about with that unless they pump out other content quicktime (which they won’t, otherwise it’ll devalue raid kit too quickly). Hopefully, they’ll still catch the casual PvP audience with varied and viable PvP options because I’m in that audience and I don’t want to be sad L
Certainly, the PvE content seems to be very WoW-ish in its format. I guess most people who bother to post on here are likely to be hardcore so they’ll love it. Either way, it’s all speculation. The very fact that the OP has put so many people noses out of joint indicates a lot of people are gagging for this game and hope that finally someone has created a genuine alternative to WoW.
Playing: Ableton Live 8
~ ragequitcancelsubdeletegamesmashcomputerkillself ~
Thats the most encouraging news... I've been on the wire about passing on AoC altogether cause it was sounding like one of those low content PvP games where you level up and just PvP forever for no apparent purpose...
I like the item collection and exploration parts of MMORPGs more then anything. The PvP and especially guild battles are fun but just a side activity and if I have to do it too much becomes insanely boring...
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Ethion
I was kind of wanting to let this thread fade away now but there is one more thing I have to say regarding what Aryas touched on.
It seems that whenever I have one of these discussions I always end up talking about PvP gear. But there is more to this. I enjoy PvP but I also enjoy PvE in small groups or solo. And just like anyone playing a progression game I need to have rewards as goals.
Regarding small group and solo PvE I don't think the devs are even trying to hide the fact that those playstyles will be less rewarding than raiding. Less progression and less content at high levels for those playstyles. Like most games of this type the small group and solo PvE player will very likely run out of things to do very soon after hitting max level.
I know that a lot of people think that that is the way it should be. They will ask, "Why should a solo or small group player get the same rewards as a raider." But those same people would scream bloody murder if the situation were reversed and small group / solo progression continued while raiding languished and died.
The thing is; in a progression game such as this every playstyle needs ongoing content and goals to achieve. Take the rewards away from raiding and raiding dies. But by the same token if you don't provide goals for small groups and solo then those playstyles die.
My problems with AoC are not entirely centered around the question of PvP rewards versus PvE rewards. Another big problem I have is that I see the same old pattern developing with this game that we've seen before. Where solo and small group PvE at max level is neglegted by the devs and basically just ends.
24 man player raids......sounds aweful. That was very disappointing news to me personally.
Pretty much decided for me which one I am more excited about. More and more PvP in AoC sounds like the "mini-game" vs. WAR where it is the game.
WAR for the win.
having a NDA which is not going to be released till the game is launched i think is very bad and might be hurting the game actually. Everytime i ask a question it is: i think it will be...i have faith in.....it might be like this.... etc.
Personally...i cancelled my preorder cause soo many of my questions people supposedly cannot answer, and so many parts of the game, especially seiging, needs to be stressed test. Not just by closed beta testers, but mass amounts. Otherwise there is NO way to know how these systems will function in Live. I'll wait a few weeks to a month after and see how the game is doing. Maybe i'll buy it then. I hate being all doom and gloom but there are so many uncertainties, and i dont feel like preordering another DnL/VG/etc (not comparing it those games,, just don't want to be hosed again)
Its prolly already been said by people who know a small bit about AoC, but just in case;
yes the game has raids. do you have to do the raids? no. crafted gear will be easy to get hold of and almost as good as the raid gear and sometimes even better. Also this game is not wow, who wins combat is not decided by the gear alone it is largely skill based. the raid conetnet is there simply for people who enjoy raids, the fact there are a good amount of raids at release shows FC have put in some hard work.
My blog:
In fact I would go so far as to say some developers believe that solo can NOT be as hard or hardcore as grouping.
I had a number of argument on the AoC boards about this and it was a dev that was saying some of this stuff about complexity.
And when I brought in real complexity analysis and they just sat their stunned and then repeated the same old crap and told me to stop using math.
AoC is going to follow the WoW model because the designers believe it is correct. They are simply going to tweak it a bit.
They are wrong and I find it galling that people working on computer games don't even bother to talk with the programmers about complexity analysis and input size versus number of operations. But whatever people are hidebound especially in the RPG scene.
Once they figure out how to make raids recursive then I will think those monkies are "hardcore".