As long as I have the option to solo, whenever I desire, and not suffer for it, if, say, one day, I decide to tag along on a raid, or hop into a PvP event, I am happy. No offense meant, here, but I avoid most of the standard gamers like...well, I avoid standard people. Todays typical person amounts to little more than a large pain in the ass if they find that you are not, exactly, like them, in views and opinions.
I only keep playing MMOs in hopes of finding role players, the dying breed they are. It is far easier to be around a person when they are pretending to be another being, within an actor-like role, rather than being the horrid person, chances are, they really are. Just my opinion, mind you. Take me, for example...I am far more pleasant to be around when pretending to be someone...well, nicer.
All of that said, we'll see how decent it is, once released. Either way, not as if the role players, these days, get any love, so those on the side of PvP/PvE should complain, less--at least you get content, in games. From what I've read, AoC may just be a decent mix of both those worlds, pulled off slightly better than WoW could do...we'll see, and hope.
I had a number of argument on the AoC boards about this and it was a dev that was saying some of this stuff about complexity.
Yeah, I remember the devs talking about that. Basically they said that no matter how you slice it, doing things with more people is always going to be more challenging than doing things with fewer people thus it deserves better rewards. Yada, yada, yada. In fact I probably quoted some of that stuff in the old arguments we had on this board.
I've just about given up beating my head against that wall. People who believe that are never going to change their minds. What it comes down to now, for me, is that I don't pay subscription fees to go on raids. If developers aren't gonig to provide me with the type of entertainment I want then I'm not going to give them my money. I'm not going to pay money so that it can be used to develop content for a small percentage of people that I don't happen to be a part of.
Lets flip it 180. There would be no end game raiding.
You would do the same post but with "omg shit game with no content" instead
Remember how people used to whine about not enough raid dungeons in WoW? then blizzard added more, and people whined about something else instead....
People just wanna whine about stuff, no matter how well game devs. make something people complained about they quickly shift to something else =/
Ikinda like the thought of 8 raid dungeons at release, i just hope they are full of lore and lots of npc emotes encounters, so you don't feel like just bashing a random dude with no history.... it's really a large difference between places if there's emotes and certain scenes with mobs, when blizzard smashed lots of voice emotes on lots of bosses, it turned the bossenounters from "just hitting big bad mofo" into "fight against a real villain with a sort of personality".
you see the whole thing in a new picture.... like going from black and white to colored...
Just stumbled across this thread, I always assumed AoC would be mostly a PvP game. Will have to give it a go if they are considering adding good raid content as end game. 8 raid dungeons at the release looks very promising.
Raid equipment will be better than a regular crafted item but with the sockets in it you can make it much better than loot and some items used for crafting are loot.
I was going to sit this one out, but as one of the guys who said AoC wouldn't be an item centric raid fest, my points still stand, in fact, portions of the information in the OP support a number of the arguments I've made in the past. If you can't recall what I mean, there's no point in me bringing it up yet again.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
What is an MMO if not an item-driven grind, one way or the other? What alternative do the dev teams have? To make a game that rewards based solely on skill? As much as i'd like to see it, that route would not be very profitable once %90 of the population gets sick of getting creamed and leaves.. quality development and game evolution is about money nowadays, which is in turn about appealing to the masses, which leaves me assuming that i will be playing the same game, essentially, for the rest of my life. I hope to god i'm wrong, though, because i've found that living a full life and having a raid schedule dont exactly go hand in hand :P
On a brighter note, this thread did remind me of the importance of correctly spelling the big, fancy words chosen by a person in trying to convey their immense intelligence.
Lets flip it 180. There would be no end game raiding.
You would do the same post but with "omg shit game with no content" instead
Heh, uh...if you ever see me complaining about a lack of raid content you better kiss your ass goodbye because it would most certainly be a sign that the apocolypse is nigh.
And to the people who bring up the fact that items will have both PvP and PvE stats on them I would like to point out that ALL items will have PvP stats. That doesn't mean that raid drops will have crap stats for PvP. That's just the wishfull thinking assumption that a lot of people made up in their own minds.
Add to that the fact that the best crafting materials will come from raids (I would bet both nuts and 50,000 dollars on this) and the end result is that even if crafted items are better for PvP you will still have to grind raids to get the gems and other materials to make those items.
When you push aside all the BS the fact remains that there has to be a powerfull motivation for people to raid or nobody would put themselves through that unbearable hell. The AoC devs know this and have alluded to this fact themselves. So keep telling yourselves that raiding won't confer any advantage if you like but you're just being suckers if you fall for this crap in yet another game.
Once again, why is it unbearable hell to raid? How do you get these ideas? Do you dislike talking to other people over Vent? Perhaps you hate it when you accomplish something new in the game? Is it really so bad to have to coordinate with others, listen to them, and follow orders, instead of doing your own thing no matter what?
What part of raiding is this unbearable hell?
Sorry , I just had to answer this one. All your doing is listing the fun parts of raiding , which are common elements to a guild vs guild or faction vs faction pvp .
Unbearable is having to be on and ready to raid 5 days a week from 6pm to 12 pm. The 2 off days , you grind rep and mats for the raids. If you don't participate to the fullest, your a "slacker" and hinder the guild progress and thus gear given to you is wasted . The 1st time you kill a new boss , what a great feeling. The 30th time you do it to get that last piece for your main tank or whatever is not.
Players get burned out or poached by guild higher on the progression pole , so you need new players to keep it up. Which in turn need to be geared to a certain extent. Having to regrind the same old shit.
All this to get a 10-15% upgrade in power so you can finally get a shot at the next tiered instance to restart the same grind all over.
That to me is hell.
I raided up to maexxna (sp?) in naxx pre-tbc and everything but black temple and hyjal post-tbc. So i know.
You will get all the teamwork aspects you named in a good Guild vs guild keep siege or faction vs faction combat. They should concentrate on that aspect. I know WAR his.
Hopefully AoC put some good pve , but if they are trying to make PVE the end all in the game like WOW did , well it's gotta suck for the players that went into it for the guild battles imo .
Lets flip it 180. There would be no end game raiding.
You would do the same post but with "omg shit game with no content" instead
The same content we did to reach end level would be better than fucking raiding. I won't do another raiding game, so it's good bye to AoC for me and hello WAR. The only raiding in that game will be PvP raids against forts and castles, hell yeah!
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Lets flip it 180. There would be no end game raiding.
You would do the same post but with "omg shit game with no content" instead
Heh, uh...if you ever see me complaining about a lack of raid content you better kiss your ass goodbye because it would most certainly be a sign that the apocolypse is nigh.
And to the people who bring up the fact that items will have both PvP and PvE stats on them I would like to point out that ALL items will have PvP stats. That doesn't mean that raid drops will have crap stats for PvP. That's just the wishfull thinking assumption that a lot of people made up in their own minds.
Add to that the fact that the best crafting materials will come from raids (I would bet both nuts and 50,000 dollars on this) and the end result is that even if crafted items are better for PvP you will still have to grind raids to get the gems and other materials to make those items.
When you push aside all the BS the fact remains that there has to be a powerfull motivation for people to raid or nobody would put themselves through that unbearable hell. The AoC devs know this and have alluded to this fact themselves. So keep telling yourselves that raiding won't confer any advantage if you like but you're just being suckers if you fall for this crap in yet another game.
Regarding your point about forcing people to raid to craft items is really lame to me. Some people don't raid, they don't like it and don't want to do it, yet you're forced to if you want epic items not matter what. Crafting usually takes a long time (though I can't say I know much about AoC crafting) to perfect which usually compensates for time invested raiding for items. For this reason crafted items should be on par with raid items IMO. Forcing you to raid for crafting items pretty much defeats the purpose of crafting the item to begin with. Why make a crafted item with the uber raid gem when you just got a better item raiding for said gem? This is exactly what WoW does and most of the craftable items in that game I find to be useless or inferior. Maybe I'm ignorant but that’s the way it seems to me.
Regarding your point about forcing people to raid to craft items is really lame to me. Some people don't raid, they don't like it and don't want to do it, yet you're forced to if you want epic items not matter what. Crafting usually takes a long time (though I can't say I know much about AoC crafting) to perfect which usually compensates for time invested raiding for items. For this reason crafted items should be on par with raid items IMO. Forcing you to raid for crafting items pretty much defeats the purpose of crafting the item to begin with. Why make a crafted item with the uber raid gem when you just got a better item raiding for said gem? This is exactly what WoW does and most of the craftable items in that game I find to be useless or inferior. Maybe I'm ignorant but that’s the way it seems to me.
If crafted items were equal to raid drops, no one would raid.
That would defeat the purpose of raiding...
Catch 22 there....
If the best items are crafted, then EVERYONE will have them. "Age of Clones". No thanks.
Originally posted by chado12 What is an MMO if not an item-driven grind, one way or the other? What alternative do the dev teams have? To make a game that rewards based solely on skill? As much as i'd like to see it, that route would not be very profitable once %90 of the population gets sick of getting creamed and leaves..
Not all MMOs follow the grindfest-pattern. That doesn't mean they don't work. Guild Wars is a good example. There is no item grind in it. Sure, some PvE players are farming for good-looking item skins, but that's it... no loot with amazing stats. The game is based on skill. Also the business model (no subscription) is different than your average wow-clone. And it still worked.
Of course, ArenaNet made less money with GW than Blizzard with WoW. But, as a hardcore gamer and (wannabe game-) developer, I have much more respect for what ArenaNet did.
So if the AoC producers choose to use these money-making wow-like patterns, good for them. I just hope no talented game designers and developers will waste their time on it and be gathered by some genius(es) to make the most needed kickass-MMO non-brainwashed gamers are waiting for.
(my post is a bit agressive, i'm sorry (don't know how to temper it, not english native ))
There would be no end game PvE without raids. And without upgrading your items a game wouldn't be a real RPG, getting new items is alot of the fun in MMOs. I'm sure MMO developers have tried to think of many things to do end game besides raiding but they know raiding works. I personally don't have the time to raid that's why I don't do it... Does that mean I'm not gonna play the game? No. Because there's more to do in the game besides raid or even end game PvP. Raiding is just a timesink to milk subscriptions. Luckily the game isn't just raiding. Whos cares if the end game is raiding... Just make a new char once you max out a character pre-raid or wait for a new expansion or quit.
Being forced to PvE to be more effective in PvP is trash.
I have my fingers crossed that AoC won't be item centric, but I think their info about the tiered items is basically admitting it will be. I don't like games that have items that are inherently worse than other items. I remember in UO people used to PvP fucking naked except for a pair of shoes, because if you were a good mage you didn't need an extra point of armor or equipment to make your spells hit harder and all that other stupid crap. Adding in tiered equipment is just an excuse to get people to play longer and is a substitute for actual FUN.
I think there is still a chance that AoC can make getting the best PvP items easy enough for it not to be item centric. The more times I have to lose because my equipment isn't as good as this other scrub's the more item centric the PvP really is.
_______________________________ PM me when an MMO as good as UO was comes out.
The thing that most concerns the pvp crowd of this game i believe is this:
Most pvpers will just rush to lvl 80. Why? because end-game pvp is where its at. Now at lvl 80 will gear mean anything pvp wise? Can i go to my guilds crafter and tell him make me a sword and be just as good as the next guy?
I ll give an excapmle to this: lets say my guild holds one the keeps, and all we do is log in to defend it and siege other people's keeps, in short only pvp all day long. Now another guild has cleared every raid, boss, quest, ie things we have not done. When they come to siege my keep and assuming equal skill lvls, will they have an advantage over us just because of raid gear, and if so how big???????
Any1 who knows answer plz A simple yes or no answer will be apreciated. Not crafting is the wild card or crafted items have more sockets, i dont wanna use my sword to plug a stereo and tv in it, so i dont care about its sockets if u know what i mean
Rushing to level 80 won't do you much good battle keep wise. You need to have a Player City of level 3 before you can start taking keeps.
The inforamation about this is contained in the footage Avery brought back from Oslo.
I've also not seen anything to date that suggests you are forced to PVE to be good at PVE, apart from having to level. Happy and Optimistic is my name, and if I'm wrong, oh well there are no guarentees in this life.
I'm surprised this thread is still going. I mean, I'm not sure, but from the way I heard/read about it, you'll get gear that is good for PvP by PvPing and you'll get gear that's good for Raids and PvE by doing raids? Wasn#t that the plan? Did I miss something?
Oh, and of course the crafted stuff, which is a sort of middle ground and can be adjusted to your liking through sockets. *blinks*
From what I hear and read, that's the aim of the game, so why is everyone complaining about needing to raid to get good gear for PvP? Just confused here.
I'm surprised this thread is still going. I mean, I'm not sure, but from the way I heard/read about it, you'll get gear that is good for PvP by PvPing and you'll get gear that's good for Raids and PvE by doing raids? Wasn#t that the plan? Did I miss something?
Oh, and of course the crafted stuff, which is a sort of middle ground and can be adjusted to your liking through sockets. *blinks*
From what I hear and read, that's the aim of the game, so why is everyone complaining about needing to raid to get good gear for PvP? Just confused here.
Thats what me, Avery, the developers, and others have been saying pretty much all along, but some remain convinced otherwise.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
I dont get your guild ^^^ you guys just break into gaming or what? AoC looks good on the outside but theres just no way they can balance raid gear and pvp gear im sorry. go ahead and tell me im wrong, buy the game play it and have fun.
Why do you wanna run around in : T1, T2 or T3 ? Because you wanna look cool, and after all stats are great but the looks and status you get are better. There has never been said that all gear will be the same and nothing ramps, but the gaps will be allot smaller between them. Once more a crap topic without a decent reason.
You sound like you like wow. Actually it's a really good topic. Answer this, why should a pvper (one part of the game) be forced to do raiding (a different part of the game) in order to succeed in his part of the game?
It its a fallacy when you force someone to do that. A raider (pve) should never get an advantage over a pvper in his part of the game. Period. WoW made that mistake.. and are starting to lose peeps over it, if they haven't already.
Not only that but when you do that you make crafting things useless, kinda like how crafting in wow is kinda meh. IMO everything should be crafted except for cool trophy drops like a dragons head or something.
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AmazingAveryAge of Conan AdvocateMemberUncommonPosts: 7,188
Originally posted by Sidoxs
I dont get your guild ^^^ you guys just break into gaming or what? AoC looks good on the outside but theres just no way they can balance raid gear and pvp gear im sorry. go ahead and tell me im wrong, buy the game play it and have fun.
No offence but its not about balancing really:
Drops from monsters dont have Sockets / Slots on the gear -
Any gems that drop from monsters will have specifics attached to that gem for that area it was dropped from - eg a raid boss drops some gems, its likely those gems will have stats on it to better kill that Boss or be better in that dungeon. Stats might be also like more Fire Damage because maybe the boss was not a dealer of fire.
Crafted items you can make stuff with up to 4 sockets on.
Gems can be found in the world and dropped from monsters. Raid gems that drop wont always carry stats on them that will be better for PvP.
Which do you think is going to be the better, and have more flexibility overall for PVP??
In other games people go raiding to get the best items and those items are the best for all over in all area's of that game. AoC mixes it up by taking this mainly out of the equation in certain areas like PvP.
Leave the thoughts of other games at the doorstep, because it is different here, there wont be that pressure to go raiding, to spend hours and hours of time repeating a dungeon to think you will get something which will make you "own" in PVP. Doesnt work like that.
If someone strolls into pvp wearing raid gear, its going to be alright, slightly better than your standard PvE gear, but not neccessarily better than you player made PvP gear.
Then factor in the 20 pvp levels and all the extra feats you can just learn for PvP.
What about all of those hordes of PvEers such as myself who love to quest or just kill stuff, but despise raiding and all it stands for. Why the hell should we be relegated to second class citizens when we invest just as much time as raiders do, but are not rewarded equally for it? It's bullshit through and through. It's bad enough we have to deal with elitist players who think they're entitled to the best of the best because they think their play style is the only deserving one, but to see this same mentality relfected in the developers of the game is just sickening. Until a year ago, there was going to be no raiding in this game, but Funcom caved in to the extremely vocal hardcore minoirty and now have made a very raid focused PvE game that I won't be playing.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I'm surprised this thread is still going. I mean, I'm not sure, but from the way I heard/read about it, you'll get gear that is good for PvP by PvPing and you'll get gear that's good for Raids and PvE by doing raids? Wasn#t that the plan? Did I miss something?
Oh, and of course the crafted stuff, which is a sort of middle ground and can be adjusted to your liking through sockets. *blinks*
From what I hear and read, that's the aim of the game, so why is everyone complaining about needing to raid to get good gear for PvP? Just confused here.
Thats what me, Avery, the developers, and others have been saying pretty much all along, but some remain convinced otherwise.
But let's be honest, people's past experience tells them otherwise which makes them suspicious, and right now all we have is Funcom's word on how the game really is. Until we get a chance to play it we won't really know how it really turns out.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm surprised this thread is still going. I mean, I'm not sure, but from the way I heard/read about it, you'll get gear that is good for PvP by PvPing and you'll get gear that's good for Raids and PvE by doing raids? Wasn#t that the plan? Did I miss something?
Oh, and of course the crafted stuff, which is a sort of middle ground and can be adjusted to your liking through sockets. *blinks*
From what I hear and read, that's the aim of the game, so why is everyone complaining about needing to raid to get good gear for PvP? Just confused here.
Thats what me, Avery, the developers, and others have been saying pretty much all along, but some remain convinced otherwise.
But let's be honest, people's past experience tells them otherwise which makes them suspicious, and right now all we have is Funcom's word on how the game really is. Until we get a chance to play it we won't really know how it really turns out.
Well, yes. But isn't that the way with every game? And speaking of suspicious? Why are they? I mean, certainly not based on FunCom? I can understand if they are suspicious about a botched launch, though I would usually give the company the benefit of hoping they learn from mistakes (unless they're SOE *snicker*). But that doesn't have anything to do with the end-game content really. *ponders*
Well, as I said, you are right in that we will only know once the game comes out. However, there are SO many people here bashing the game by saying "It will be so bad because of X" and whatnot. It's really just turning things the other way around. Some fans say the game will be great, others, like I, just say, I'm hoping it will be great and I place my trust in FC to do it right, but we'll have to see how it goes.
Why can't people just voice their opinions, instead of trampling all over the game and proclaiming their pearls of wisdom to everyone as though they#re a universal truth? That's what ticks me off really, not people who voice doubts, but people who voice pre-fabricated "truths" based on supposed sources and whatnot.
If you don't trust FC, wait till the game comes out, see how it is, then form a judgement based on Release-version accounts. That's all I'd like to say.
P.S.: This is not aimed straight at you Kyleran, just to voice my opinion. ^_^
Comments
As long as I have the option to solo, whenever I desire, and not suffer for it, if, say, one day, I decide to tag along on a raid, or hop into a PvP event, I am happy. No offense meant, here, but I avoid most of the standard gamers like...well, I avoid standard people. Todays typical person amounts to little more than a large pain in the ass if they find that you are not, exactly, like them, in views and opinions.
I only keep playing MMOs in hopes of finding role players, the dying breed they are. It is far easier to be around a person when they are pretending to be another being, within an actor-like role, rather than being the horrid person, chances are, they really are. Just my opinion, mind you. Take me, for example...I am far more pleasant to be around when pretending to be someone...well, nicer.
All of that said, we'll see how decent it is, once released. Either way, not as if the role players, these days, get any love, so those on the side of PvP/PvE should complain, less--at least you get content, in games. From what I've read, AoC may just be a decent mix of both those worlds, pulled off slightly better than WoW could do...we'll see, and hope.
Yeah, I remember the devs talking about that. Basically they said that no matter how you slice it, doing things with more people is always going to be more challenging than doing things with fewer people thus it deserves better rewards. Yada, yada, yada. In fact I probably quoted some of that stuff in the old arguments we had on this board.
I've just about given up beating my head against that wall. People who believe that are never going to change their minds. What it comes down to now, for me, is that I don't pay subscription fees to go on raids. If developers aren't gonig to provide me with the type of entertainment I want then I'm not going to give them my money. I'm not going to pay money so that it can be used to develop content for a small percentage of people that I don't happen to be a part of.
Remember how people used to whine about not enough raid dungeons in WoW? then blizzard added more, and people whined about something else instead....
People just wanna whine about stuff, no matter how well game devs. make something people complained about they quickly shift to something else =/
Ikinda like the thought of 8 raid dungeons at release, i just hope they are full of lore and lots of npc emotes encounters, so you don't feel like just bashing a random dude with no history.... it's really a large difference between places if there's emotes and certain scenes with mobs, when blizzard smashed lots of voice emotes on lots of bosses, it turned the bossenounters from "just hitting big bad mofo" into "fight against a real villain with a sort of personality".
you see the whole thing in a new picture.... like going from black and white to colored...
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Just stumbled across this thread, I always assumed AoC would be mostly a PvP game. Will have to give it a go if they are considering adding good raid content as end game. 8 raid dungeons at the release looks very promising.
Raid equipment will be better than a regular crafted item but with the sockets in it you can make it much better than loot and some items used for crafting are loot.
I was going to sit this one out, but as one of the guys who said AoC wouldn't be an item centric raid fest, my points still stand, in fact, portions of the information in the OP support a number of the arguments I've made in the past. If you can't recall what I mean, there's no point in me bringing it up yet again.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
What is an MMO if not an item-driven grind, one way or the other? What alternative do the dev teams have? To make a game that rewards based solely on skill? As much as i'd like to see it, that route would not be very profitable once %90 of the population gets sick of getting creamed and leaves.. quality development and game evolution is about money nowadays, which is in turn about appealing to the masses, which leaves me assuming that i will be playing the same game, essentially, for the rest of my life. I hope to god i'm wrong, though, because i've found that living a full life and having a raid schedule dont exactly go hand in hand :P
On a brighter note, this thread did remind me of the importance of correctly spelling the big, fancy words chosen by a person in trying to convey their immense intelligence.
Heh, uh...if you ever see me complaining about a lack of raid content you better kiss your ass goodbye because it would most certainly be a sign that the apocolypse is nigh.And to the people who bring up the fact that items will have both PvP and PvE stats on them I would like to point out that ALL items will have PvP stats. That doesn't mean that raid drops will have crap stats for PvP. That's just the wishfull thinking assumption that a lot of people made up in their own minds.
Add to that the fact that the best crafting materials will come from raids (I would bet both nuts and 50,000 dollars on this) and the end result is that even if crafted items are better for PvP you will still have to grind raids to get the gems and other materials to make those items.
When you push aside all the BS the fact remains that there has to be a powerfull motivation for people to raid or nobody would put themselves through that unbearable hell. The AoC devs know this and have alluded to this fact themselves. So keep telling yourselves that raiding won't confer any advantage if you like but you're just being suckers if you fall for this crap in yet another game.
Once again, why is it unbearable hell to raid? How do you get these ideas? Do you dislike talking to other people over Vent? Perhaps you hate it when you accomplish something new in the game? Is it really so bad to have to coordinate with others, listen to them, and follow orders, instead of doing your own thing no matter what?What part of raiding is this unbearable hell?
Sorry , I just had to answer this one. All your doing is listing the fun parts of raiding , which are common elements to a guild vs guild or faction vs faction pvp .
Unbearable is having to be on and ready to raid 5 days a week from 6pm to 12 pm. The 2 off days , you grind rep and mats for the raids. If you don't participate to the fullest, your a "slacker" and hinder the guild progress and thus gear given to you is wasted . The 1st time you kill a new boss , what a great feeling. The 30th time you do it to get that last piece for your main tank or whatever is not.
Players get burned out or poached by guild higher on the progression pole , so you need new players to keep it up. Which in turn need to be geared to a certain extent. Having to regrind the same old shit.
All this to get a 10-15% upgrade in power so you can finally get a shot at the next tiered instance to restart the same grind all over.
That to me is hell.
I raided up to maexxna (sp?) in naxx pre-tbc and everything but black temple and hyjal post-tbc. So i know.
You will get all the teamwork aspects you named in a good Guild vs guild keep siege or faction vs faction combat. They should concentrate on that aspect. I know WAR his.
Hopefully AoC put some good pve , but if they are trying to make PVE the end all in the game like WOW did , well it's gotta suck for the players that went into it for the guild battles imo .
cheers
http://revolutionwar.guildlaunch.com/
The same content we did to reach end level would be better than fucking raiding. I won't do another raiding game, so it's good bye to AoC for me and hello WAR. The only raiding in that game will be PvP raids against forts and castles, hell yeah!
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
And to the people who bring up the fact that items will have both PvP and PvE stats on them I would like to point out that ALL items will have PvP stats. That doesn't mean that raid drops will have crap stats for PvP. That's just the wishfull thinking assumption that a lot of people made up in their own minds.
Add to that the fact that the best crafting materials will come from raids (I would bet both nuts and 50,000 dollars on this) and the end result is that even if crafted items are better for PvP you will still have to grind raids to get the gems and other materials to make those items.
When you push aside all the BS the fact remains that there has to be a powerfull motivation for people to raid or nobody would put themselves through that unbearable hell. The AoC devs know this and have alluded to this fact themselves. So keep telling yourselves that raiding won't confer any advantage if you like but you're just being suckers if you fall for this crap in yet another game.
Regarding your point about forcing people to raid to craft items is really lame to me. Some people don't raid, they don't like it and don't want to do it, yet you're forced to if you want epic items not matter what. Crafting usually takes a long time (though I can't say I know much about AoC crafting) to perfect which usually compensates for time invested raiding for items. For this reason crafted items should be on par with raid items IMO. Forcing you to raid for crafting items pretty much defeats the purpose of crafting the item to begin with. Why make a crafted item with the uber raid gem when you just got a better item raiding for said gem? This is exactly what WoW does and most of the craftable items in that game I find to be useless or inferior. Maybe I'm ignorant but that’s the way it seems to me.
That would defeat the purpose of raiding...
Catch 22 there....
If the best items are crafted, then EVERYONE will have them. "Age of Clones". No thanks.
Of course, ArenaNet made less money with GW than Blizzard with WoW. But, as a hardcore gamer and (wannabe game-) developer, I have much more respect for what ArenaNet did.
So if the AoC producers choose to use these money-making wow-like patterns, good for them. I just hope no talented game designers and developers will waste their time on it and be gathered by some genius(es) to make the most needed kickass-MMO non-brainwashed gamers are waiting for.
(my post is a bit agressive, i'm sorry (don't know how to temper it, not english native
))
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Waiting for: GW2
*thumbs up*: GW, Eve(, WoW)
*thumbs down*: MO, GA, FE
There would be no end game PvE without raids. And without upgrading your items a game wouldn't be a real RPG, getting new items is alot of the fun in MMOs. I'm sure MMO developers have tried to think of many things to do end game besides raiding but they know raiding works. I personally don't have the time to raid that's why I don't do it... Does that mean I'm not gonna play the game? No. Because there's more to do in the game besides raid or even end game PvP. Raiding is just a timesink to milk subscriptions. Luckily the game isn't just raiding. Whos cares if the end game is raiding... Just make a new char once you max out a character pre-raid or wait for a new expansion or quit.
Being forced to PvE to be more effective in PvP is trash.
I have my fingers crossed that AoC won't be item centric, but I think their info about the tiered items is basically admitting it will be. I don't like games that have items that are inherently worse than other items. I remember in UO people used to PvP fucking naked except for a pair of shoes, because if you were a good mage you didn't need an extra point of armor or equipment to make your spells hit harder and all that other stupid crap. Adding in tiered equipment is just an excuse to get people to play longer and is a substitute for actual FUN.
I think there is still a chance that AoC can make getting the best PvP items easy enough for it not to be item centric. The more times I have to lose because my equipment isn't as good as this other scrub's the more item centric the PvP really is.
_______________________________
PM me when an MMO as good as UO was comes out.
Rushing to level 80 won't do you much good battle keep wise. You need to have a Player City of level 3 before you can start taking keeps.
The inforamation about this is contained in the footage Avery brought back from Oslo.
I've also not seen anything to date that suggests you are forced to PVE to be good at PVE, apart from having to level. Happy and Optimistic is my name, and if I'm wrong, oh well there are no guarentees in this life.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
I'm surprised this thread is still going. I mean, I'm not sure, but from the way I heard/read about it, you'll get gear that is good for PvP by PvPing and you'll get gear that's good for Raids and PvE by doing raids? Wasn#t that the plan? Did I miss something?
Oh, and of course the crafted stuff, which is a sort of middle ground and can be adjusted to your liking through sockets. *blinks*
From what I hear and read, that's the aim of the game, so why is everyone complaining about needing to raid to get good gear for PvP? Just confused here.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Thats what me, Avery, the developers, and others have been saying pretty much all along, but some remain convinced otherwise.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
I dont get your guild ^^^ you guys just break into gaming or what? AoC looks good on the outside but theres just no way they can balance raid gear and pvp gear im sorry. go ahead and tell me im wrong, buy the game play it and have fun.
HOGG4LIFE
You sound like you like wow.
Actually it's a really good topic. Answer this, why should a pvper (one part of the game) be forced to do raiding (a different part of the game) in order to succeed in his part of the game?
It its a fallacy when you force someone to do that. A raider (pve) should never get an advantage over a pvper in his part of the game. Period. WoW made that mistake.. and are starting to lose peeps over it, if they haven't already.
Not only that but when you do that you make crafting things useless, kinda like how crafting in wow is kinda meh. IMO everything should be crafted except for cool trophy drops like a dragons head or something.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
^^^ Brilliant exactly my point.
HOGG4LIFE
Drops from monsters dont have Sockets / Slots on the gear -
Any gems that drop from monsters will have specifics attached to that gem for that area it was dropped from - eg a raid boss drops some gems, its likely those gems will have stats on it to better kill that Boss or be better in that dungeon. Stats might be also like more Fire Damage because maybe the boss was not a dealer of fire.
Crafted items you can make stuff with up to 4 sockets on.
Gems can be found in the world and dropped from monsters. Raid gems that drop wont always carry stats on them that will be better for PvP.
Which do you think is going to be the better, and have more flexibility overall for PVP??
In other games people go raiding to get the best items and those items are the best for all over in all area's of that game. AoC mixes it up by taking this mainly out of the equation in certain areas like PvP.
Leave the thoughts of other games at the doorstep, because it is different here, there wont be that pressure to go raiding, to spend hours and hours of time repeating a dungeon to think you will get something which will make you "own" in PVP. Doesnt work like that.
If someone strolls into pvp wearing raid gear, its going to be alright, slightly better than your standard PvE gear, but not neccessarily better than you player made PvP gear.
Then factor in the 20 pvp levels and all the extra feats you can just learn for PvP.
People been saying this for over a year now.
What about all of those hordes of PvEers such as myself who love to quest or just kill stuff, but despise raiding and all it stands for. Why the hell should we be relegated to second class citizens when we invest just as much time as raiders do, but are not rewarded equally for it? It's bullshit through and through. It's bad enough we have to deal with elitist players who think they're entitled to the best of the best because they think their play style is the only deserving one, but to see this same mentality relfected in the developers of the game is just sickening. Until a year ago, there was going to be no raiding in this game, but Funcom caved in to the extremely vocal hardcore minoirty and now have made a very raid focused PvE game that I won't be playing.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
so craft stuff then? Funcom have said the best stuff alot of the time for PVP and PVE will be crafted materials.
i dont see them as forgetting anyone really.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Thats what me, Avery, the developers, and others have been saying pretty much all along, but some remain convinced otherwise.
But let's be honest, people's past experience tells them otherwise which makes them suspicious, and right now all we have is Funcom's word on how the game really is. Until we get a chance to play it we won't really know how it really turns out.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Thats what me, Avery, the developers, and others have been saying pretty much all along, but some remain convinced otherwise.
But let's be honest, people's past experience tells them otherwise which makes them suspicious, and right now all we have is Funcom's word on how the game really is. Until we get a chance to play it we won't really know how it really turns out.
Well, yes. But isn't that the way with every game? And speaking of suspicious? Why are they? I mean, certainly not based on FunCom? I can understand if they are suspicious about a botched launch, though I would usually give the company the benefit of hoping they learn from mistakes (unless they're SOE *snicker*). But that doesn't have anything to do with the end-game content really. *ponders*Well, as I said, you are right in that we will only know once the game comes out. However, there are SO many people here bashing the game by saying "It will be so bad because of X" and whatnot. It's really just turning things the other way around. Some fans say the game will be great, others, like I, just say, I'm hoping it will be great and I place my trust in FC to do it right, but we'll have to see how it goes.
Why can't people just voice their opinions, instead of trampling all over the game and proclaiming their pearls of wisdom to everyone as though they#re a universal truth? That's what ticks me off really, not people who voice doubts, but people who voice pre-fabricated "truths" based on supposed sources and whatnot.
If you don't trust FC, wait till the game comes out, see how it is, then form a judgement based on Release-version accounts. That's all I'd like to say.
P.S.: This is not aimed straight at you Kyleran, just to voice my opinion. ^_^
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7