It doesnt really matter how PvE is balanced against PvP to me. The substraction method is fine. I wanted to point out that Raid gear is PvE gear and it works outside of raid dungeons too. Thats my point. The substraction on raid items should be done always outside of raid dungeons. Not only while PvPing.
My rather simple example of math is the result of many years playing. Especially MMO's reach sooner or later a point i call "The Point of Overkill". This is the point where a game kills itself. Result of my observations is, that PvE, PvP and Raid should have the same baseline. Theoretically a level 1 raid mob should be a level 1 player multiplied by 24. The challange should never be the itemization but the ability of 24 people to use their player and hotbar skills in a team. Itemization should not be there, because the 24 people raid allready has a huge number of buffs.
The overkill happens when devs cater for raiders to much. The rewards get better and better and to maintain some challange the raid mobs get harder and harder. The difference between a causal and a raider is growing and growing to a point where a, let say yellow equiped, casual is 1.5 to 2.3 tiers lower then a raider. At that point a new expansion with a new tier or levels is almost impossible. The content to level up is boring trivial for those raiders, but DEVs cant make it harder , because the casuals never could beat a solo mob. The game slowly bleeds to death from there... just my 2 cents.
Bottom line is this: PvPers do not want to raid, grp or farm after they hit top lvl, they just want to pvp.
The only concern is if the people who prefer doing all the content pvpers wont do will have an advantage in a show-down. Since FC has released absolutely no information and people have to interpret what has been said and speculate let the thread die and w8 for the NDA to be lifted.
The only thing that is certain so far is that raiders will have the oppurtunity to enjoy that aspect of the game in AOC.
On a sidenote how is the assassin's burst dmg? any clues?
AmazingAveryAge of Conan AdvocateMemberUncommonPosts: 7,188
Originally posted by fantaros
Bottom line is this: PvPers do not want to raid, grp or farm after they hit top lvl, they just want to pvp. The only concern is if the people who prefer doing all the content pvpers wont do will have an advantage in a show-down. Since FC has released absolutely no information and people have to interpret what has been said and speculate let the thread die and w8 for the NDA to be lifted.
The only thing that is certain so far is that raiders will have the oppurtunity to enjoy that aspect of the game in AOC.
On a sidenote how is the assassin's burst dmg? any clues?
I played Assassin at the community event, it had quite a high burst dps from a couple of combos with which I could get a guardians health down quite a bit. Although I found my armor not that great, it did seem like a get in , get out class so far. Although balancing is still being down right now.
The Barbarian has the best dps closely followed by the Conq in a frenzy stance, then maybe Assassin from what I saw, but again they are still tweaking.
About raiding and PvP - Raid Drops wont carry Sockets you can add to or manipulate. The stats on the gear is the stats on the gear.
PvP wise a crafted item can have up to 4 sockets/slots for gems meaning that I'm 99% sure a crafted item will be better than a raid drop in PvP. This is the way the devs put it across in plain English.
Countless times they have said you don't have to raid to get the best items, especially for PvP.
I don't think that eugam has participated in both high end activities at the same time (end game raiding and top server PvP).
Right. I am an ok healer or supporter in groups and raids, but i suck in PvP. I raided for a while but lately i tend to "challanging" soloing or duoing. Raiding turned into a one way mainstream road. I cant see more then a silly ritual in it and i ll give PvP another try once AoC is released. But i wont hold my breath to see my name on any ladder :P
My concerns here are rather abstract, because i will be a true casual and for that AoC offers a lot.
I for one think you can use PvE as fuel for PVP instead of two seperate activities. Look to Eve. It promotes cooperation and risk vs win oppertunities. The wow approach is just too unrealistic imo.
--- And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there. John Smedley, SOE
Originally posted by singsofdeath I would really love to know where you got this information from. Really. Yes, I am forcing you to bring out the quotes. I want to know where you got the examples and where you got the proof that AoC will handle Raid-Loot and PvP-Loot (and not to forget Crafted Items) in this particular way. Sorry, but without proof of your quotes, I'm gonna say the same thing as the poster before me. Pure speculation.
Actually, the information he does have is quite valid, in fact its a variation on something I quoted to him. The problem is partially one of hard statistics, which we don't have for comparison, and partially interpretation.
Ok, so am I off the hook for digging up the information on that? Aelfinn if you know exactly where to find a more detailed dev explaination of this maybe you could share it with us.
The idea of negative PvP modifiers on items is interesting but of course I am highly skeptical of that. I don't remember ever reading any mention of negative modifiers. But I've also never read that there won't be negative modifiers. I don't remember ever seeing it mentioned before at all to be honest.
I am extremely skeptical of it because it goes against the very nature of a progression game. People chase after item upgrades specifically because they are better. I find it hard to believe that the devs will cap PvP effectiveness of items at a certain level and never raise the cap.
Remember that there is no item decay or loss. Once you get a piece of equipment it lasts forever. So what about their supposed method for PvP rewards. I think that there probably will be something like that because they are already planning to include PvP mini-games like capture the flag. So that's probably how people will earn PvP rewards.
But do you honestly believe that they would NEVER up the ante with bigger and bigger rewards? If that were the case then once people maxed out their equipment for PvP the whole rewards system (assuming there is one) would be obsolete and they might as well have not included it at all.
And think about what they would have to do with raid drops. The PvE numbers most definately will get bigger and bigger over time. So the PvP nerfing would also have to increase in direct proportion to keep PvP stats at a fixed level.
Using purely hypothetical numbers; let's say that early in the game a 1st tier raid drop sword has 120 damage (PvE). The devs want to keep PvP damage down to a maximum of 100. Ok, that sword needs to have a -20 PvP modifier.
Then, much later in the game after an expansion or two, there are raid swords dropping that have 700 damage (PvE). Those swords would have to have -600 PvP modifiers on them. I really can't believe that that would happen.
No, I think that item stats for PvP will grow and grow over time. I have no doubt about it but, again, I have to say that I can't prove it. Aelfinn can you provide any solid evidence that they are planning to use negitive PvP modifiers at all? If you can't it doesn't mean that they won't, I'm just curious because I can't remember ever seeing anything about that.
Ok, and in regards to solo and small group PvE I also don't recall the devs ever saying that raid equipment would have negative modifiers in non-raid PvE. I don't think any of you said it would but the idea was floating around here. That would be kind of pointless anyway if there isn't any end-game for solo and small group PvE. In PvE my problem with raiding is that it replaces solo and small group play and those playstyles simply end. If devs allow ongoing progression for the non-raider then the rewards would be comparable to raid rewards simply due to the nature of progression (numbers getting bigger and bigger) and they have made it clear that that isn't going to happen.
Everyone is an expert because they have played the game, and all the raid end game content that is there, and knows exactly how it plays out with crafting and PvP. Job done.
Its only human that people, especially experienced mmo players, assume and comapare with games they played.
You can compare two things if you know both, how can you compare a knew game with an especulation?
Just for you to know: They are doing technical betas, there is no "closed/open beta" with the full game. So before doing an affirmation like the OP did, wait for the game and gather some information over time.
No, I think that item stats for PvP will grow and grow over time. I have no doubt about it but, again, I have to say that I can't prove it. Aelfinn can you provide any solid evidence that they are planning to use negitive PvP modifiers at all? If you can't it doesn't mean that they won't, I'm just curious because I can't remember ever seeing anything about that.
Actually, no. I haven't seen anything about that.
It is however one way to do it, and I merely intended to show some items being comparatively more or less usefull in PvP than they might be elsewhere. I used the term rating deliberately. It is rare that raw damage or protection is the only consideration in a piece of equipment, particularly going by AO's example.
As to quotes concerning this topic, I'll see what I can dig up again.
And no, I have no doubts that PvP gear will have progression, however it is obtained.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
Since this thread is still going I guess I'll jump back in. There is a developer interview transcript up at tentonhammer now that I thought had some information that is pertinent to this discussion. Here's something that is slightly off the main topic but I thought it was interesting. Remember the idea about soul corruption sending casters to hell? That was actually one of the cooler ideas the devs had. It was something that even had a certain roleplay/immerssion feel to it which you don't see very often these days. Well they took it out. And guess why? Because it was inconvenient for raiders. Here is the quote: "Q: Sending yourself to hell? Is that still in the works?
Gaute: That was one of the things we saw people not responding to favorably to - when they got put to hell during a raid." ----------------------------------------------------------------- I just thought that was interesting. The raiders didn't like it so out it goes. Who are they making this game for again? To be fair I'm sure there would be plenty of non-raiders who wouldn't like it either. But it says something about the devs that the reason they took it out was to please the raiding crowd. It also says something about raiders. They are always spouting about "challenge" and how they like for things to be difficult. But THEY are the ones who drive the dumbing down of games more than any other group (my opinion of course).
In regards to raid loot distribution they had this to say: "In terms of the raid, it's the raid leader that can distribute. So there isn't any "token" system in place for handling raid achievements." ----------------------------------------------------------- If the reader doesn't see the significance of this I'm not going to spend a lot of time explaining it but basically a token system is a way to ensure that part-time raiders (people who can only raid occasionally) will get something for their trouble). Not having a system of that sort is simply bowing to the ultra-hardcore raiders.
Here is a quote regarding the amount of raid content at launch in case there was some doubt about how much of their time has been going into developing raid content: "We will have twenty plus raid targets at launch." -------------------------------------------------------- For people who wondered about the item-centricity question and the need to "gear up" this one should help to clear things up: "We are planning to have an item-based raid leveling system which gears you towards taking the next level of raids in place." ------------------------------------------------- And this one: "Evan: Yes. Currently there's tiers of raids and raid loot planned of increasing strength that will basically allow you to start working on the next tier." ------------------------------------------------------------
And in the interest of honest reporting I need to add this one: "They have a very interesting and creative solution going on with the way that raid drops versus non-raid drops works and from I've seen the balance of that and how it impacts PvE non-raiding versus raiding is actually very solid." -------------------------------------------------------- That last one sounds encouraging but they don't bother to explain it at all. What does it mean? Nothing really, not without some clarifacation.
To be fair, it seems that there is still very much up in the air about alot of the high end content... including raid loot. There was noone from the high end department at the Q&A you read. Im not even certain if it was the whole transcript, as it was nearly a 2 hour question-fest.
Having the video on my computer right now, I followed along with your quotes and reasoning. All I can say, is: Maybe you should watch the video. It lends a different light on a few of your quotes. Having heard them in context it makes all the difference.
I would be more worried about the game being finished and polished 1-20, than a raid and loot system they dont even have set up yet.
you know gaute was there right? The number 1 in AOC development. No he didn't take it out of context, it's as bad as it sounds. Guate is clearly a raid fan and is driving the game in that direction. His mistake to make since it is their game. If it turns out PVP is a fucking arena grind AKA raid PVP then I'll go some where else.
For all those that say guild pvp is raiding, only thing in common is the name. I have played L2 and DAOC and guild based PVP is nothing like raiding.
With the new information coming out are you starting to see the writting on the wall? Are you at least starting to doubt your certainty that I and a few others were wrong when we said this game would be an item-centric raid fest? Some of you will remember the long, long arguments we had on this subject on this board. I mostly remember Aelfin and Sturmrabe being the most vocal in saying we were wrong. But there were others too. So I'm just wondering if your certainty is begining to waver. I could dig up some of the info I've read recently but I'm going to assume that you've all read it already. I'll just sum things up a little. There will be at least eight raid dungeons in the game AT RELEASE. Each of those will have three tiers. To move on to the second tier of any raid you will first have to beat one of the 1st tiers and you will need to equip your guild members with 1st tier items before you'll have a chance at beating a 2nd tier of a dungeon. Equiping everyone will mean repeatedly running 1st tiers to get drops for everyone. Then you will move on to the 2nd tiers of the dungeons and go through the same process again, upgrading your items so you can move on to the 3rd tiers. Starting to sound painfully familiar? Raid grinding anyone? If I remember right they said it will take something like 3 hours to beat a dungeon which I assume means 3 hours for a tier. And of course they are going to give the most unrealistically optomistic number they possibly can so I think it's safe to assume that in reality it will probably be more like 5-6 hours per raid per tier, and that's probably only if everything goes really well. And then, being wildly optomistic, you will have to run that same raid at least 24 times to equip everyone in your raid group and that's assuming that you only have 24 people in your guild to equip. And then, you will most likely need equipment from each of the first tiers before you can move on to a second tier so after you raid that one tier of that one dungeon at least 24 times you still have 7 other 1st tiers to raid at least 24 times before you will move on to the 2nd tiers. Ugg. So this isn't going to be a raiding game, huh? It's not going to be item-centric? Then what is this all about? Just get real here for a minute and ask yourself why they would put all this in, why they would go to the trouble to set up this huge raiding time sink if there were really any viable alternative to it. Athelan said himself that nobody would raid if they could get the same rewards some other way. Ok, I still can't prove concisively that I'm right and this game will revolve around PvE raiding. But does anyone really still want to argue that it won't be? I stand by my long held position that people who don't want to play another raid-fest game should stay away from AoC. And that's not a slam against the game. It will be what it will be, that doesn't mean it will be a bad game. It just means that it will be a bad game for people who don't want to devote their lives to raiding. If anyone still doubts what the end-game will be like in AoC I think they are being foolish. I still can't prove that I was right....what, two years ago? At least that long. I still have to fall back on the statement that time will tell. But unless you're in denial you should be starting to see the writting on the wall.
I hate to say it, but you are correct and I do agree with you. That system is raid-tastic and if anyone gives a valid 2 cents as to why its not, you should get a prize.
With the new information coming out are you starting to see the writting on the wall? Are you at least starting to doubt your certainty that I and a few others were wrong when we said this game would be an item-centric raid fest? Some of you will remember the long, long arguments we had on this subject on this board. I mostly remember Aelfin and Sturmrabe being the most vocal in saying we were wrong. But there were others too. So I'm just wondering if your certainty is begining to waver. I could dig up some of the info I've read recently but I'm going to assume that you've all read it already. I'll just sum things up a little. There will be at least eight raid dungeons in the game AT RELEASE. Each of those will have three tiers. To move on to the second tier of any raid you will first have to beat one of the 1st tiers and you will need to equip your guild members with 1st tier items before you'll have a chance at beating a 2nd tier of a dungeon. Equiping everyone will mean repeatedly running 1st tiers to get drops for everyone. Then you will move on to the 2nd tiers of the dungeons and go through the same process again, upgrading your items so you can move on to the 3rd tiers. Starting to sound painfully familiar? Raid grinding anyone? If I remember right they said it will take something like 3 hours to beat a dungeon which I assume means 3 hours for a tier. And of course they are going to give the most unrealistically optomistic number they possibly can so I think it's safe to assume that in reality it will probably be more like 5-6 hours per raid per tier, and that's probably only if everything goes really well. And then, being wildly optomistic, you will have to run that same raid at least 24 times to equip everyone in your raid group and that's assuming that you only have 24 people in your guild to equip. And then, you will most likely need equipment from each of the first tiers before you can move on to a second tier so after you raid that one tier of that one dungeon at least 24 times you still have 7 other 1st tiers to raid at least 24 times before you will move on to the 2nd tiers. Ugg. So this isn't going to be a raiding game, huh? It's not going to be item-centric? Then what is this all about? Just get real here for a minute and ask yourself why they would put all this in, why they would go to the trouble to set up this huge raiding time sink if there were really any viable alternative to it. Athelan said himself that nobody would raid if they could get the same rewards some other way. Ok, I still can't prove concisively that I'm right and this game will revolve around PvE raiding. But does anyone really still want to argue that it won't be? I stand by my long held position that people who don't want to play another raid-fest game should stay away from AoC. And that's not a slam against the game. It will be what it will be, that doesn't mean it will be a bad game. It just means that it will be a bad game for people who don't want to devote their lives to raiding. If anyone still doubts what the end-game will be like in AoC I think they are being foolish. I still can't prove that I was right....what, two years ago? At least that long. I still have to fall back on the statement that time will tell. But unless you're in denial you should be starting to see the writting on the wall.
I hate to say it, but you are correct and I do agree with you. That system is raid-tastic and if anyone gives a valid 2 cents as to why its not, you should get a prize.
Valid two cents: THE FRIKKIN GAME ISN'T RELEASED YET!
If you're that worried, just wait a month and read the reviews before buying it. Otherwise, buy it and take your chances. I am almost completely sure its a better place to spend your money than any of the 2007 RPGs, sight unseen.
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
A 17 pages thread pondering for a subject that's been already resolved in the CURRENT status of WoW. It's already proven that it's not impossible to tackle both competitive PvP and high end raiding, in a very gear-centric game.
What I want to see is how they will implement the balance between those that afford to spend 100 hours with those that afford to spend 10 in either activity. Because I fear that that's where the whole underlying question on this thread is all about. How can a 10 hours PvP player will be able to compete with a 40 hours PvE raider that also decides to PvP.
I could be wrong of course. It isn't the first time.
But Xasapsis, aren't you now talking about hardcore vs casual gamer?
Whether it is raid loot, or level grinding, or whatever - virtually every MMORPG to date has put an emphasis on "s/he who plays the most, wins" when it comes to pvp. This is not likely to change anytime soon. Even Shadowbane, which was arguably the least level and gear oriented pvp game ever still had a MASSIVE focus on the hardcore player; it was one of the most "casual gamers need not apply" games that I have ever played.
So we've seen from SB that having no raids, giving every player access to every item, and letting people hit max level in a week or so doesn't level the playing field in pvp. Frankly, nothing will, unless we dump the ENTIRE content system prevailent in MMOGs today, and opt for a totally player skill approach with no character leveling at all. Either twitch or strategy based, a player skill system with no leveling would certainly still have skill increase over time - practice makes perfect. But to some degree, good players would be good players, and bad ones would be bad ones, and time spent in the game would have less meaning toward that measurement.
Of course, that leaves the sticky question of "what would players DO in game then?" If you remove level and raid grinds, you still need to figure out some sort of content that will keep people busy for 10-40 hrs a week for 6+ months. When you do that, pitch it to some venture capitalists; there's a lot of interested players.
For AOC... Think about it this way. How long you play is GOING to matter. People who play more are GOING to have an edge in pvp - from levels, gear, or even just simply from being around more often so their guild has more numbers online during key times so they win more fights.
HOW that advantage comes through is the sticky point. One of the failings of SB was a lack of non-pvp content. Players could pvp all day long, and did - because that's all there was to do. The net result was either manic, insane wars where you almost had to be logged in 20+hrs a day, or periods of dead time where nothing was going on at all.
Having a strong pve content set helps ammelioriate this issue a great deal. Giving the players something to do besides destroy each other is actually critical. One of the more successful pvp servers, AC1-Darktide, accomplished this pretty well by accident. Players pvped - a LOT! But they also had to focus on leveling, since the level max was always very high. In fact, combat for control of key leveling areas was a big part of the game there. This gave the game two major parts - pve, which you always had to keep working on to get/stay competitive; and pvp, which could pop up at any time to make life "interesting".
I see AOC heading down this road a bit. After all, there is really no effective difference between grinding raids and grinding levels, except that the former tends to require more large group coordination. This actually means that raid-pve probably fits better into a guild vs guild game than grind-pve, since the guilds are already there and already integral for the pvp. By making the endgame pve content raids instead of leveling, you focus BOTH pvp and pve aspects of the game on group/guild activity, giving players more reason to do more things together.
Neither aspect is going to make soloers very happy. But that doesn't seem to be the market that AOC is aiming for, either.
A 17 pages thread pondering for a subject that's been already resolved in the CURRENT status of WoW. It's already proven that it's not impossible to tackle both competitive PvP and high end raiding, in a very gear-centric game. What I want to see is how they will implement the balance between those that afford to spend 100 hours with those that afford to spend 10 in either activity. Because I fear that that's where the whole underlying question on this thread is all about. How can a 10 hours PvP player will be able to compete with a 40 hours PvE raider that also decides to PvP. I could be wrong of course. It isn't the first time.
For all you people that think WoW solved it's raid/pvp problem, wake up. WoW didn't solve crap. They just added raiding to PVP. Grind BG's for gear. Grind arena for gear. You have to be one of the elite fear classes to compete of coarse. Now if you don't hae 300 resil you can forget about getting it because you aren't getting invited. Which is funny because all those nw subs are going to quite because they can't get a PVE group because they don't have raid gear and can't get a premade because they don't have 300 resil.
WoW is the ultamate failure at pvp. PVP grind with out meaning. No world based losses or gains for PVP. To keep pvpers from dieing to raiders in 1 hit and to keep them entertained and grinding they put the same gear based whoring grind in PVP. But if you think your season 2 owns pve raiders your a freaking joke and have never fought some one in T6. They are going to kill your ass.
A 17 pages thread pondering for a subject that's been already resolved in the CURRENT status of WoW. It's already proven that it's not impossible to tackle both competitive PvP and high end raiding, in a very gear-centric game. What I want to see is how they will implement the balance between those that afford to spend 100 hours with those that afford to spend 10 in either activity. Because I fear that that's where the whole underlying question on this thread is all about. How can a 10 hours PvP player will be able to compete with a 40 hours PvE raider that also decides to PvP. I could be wrong of course. It isn't the first time.
For all you people that think WoW solved it's raid/pvp problem, wake up. WoW didn't solve crap. They just added raiding to PVP. Grind BG's for gear. Grind arena for gear. You have to be one of the elite fear classes to compete of coarse. Now if you don't hae 300 resil you can forget about getting it because you aren't getting invited. Which is funny because all those nw subs are going to quite because they can't get a PVE group because they don't have raid gear and can't get a premade because they don't have 300 resil.
WoW is the ultamate failure at pvp. PVP grind with out meaning. No world based losses or gains for PVP. To keep pvpers from dieing to raiders in 1 hit and to keep them entertained and grinding they put the same gear based whoring grind in PVP. But if you think your season 2 owns pve raiders your a freaking joke and have never fought some one in T6. They are going to kill your ass.
For once in this thread, I'm going to have to agree with Felix here. WOW's solution is not a viable solution for this game, or the majority of the people who wish to play it. There are many of us in the PvP category who have little to no desire to run raids for gear, and the same is true for the many PVEers as well. If staying competitive requires raiding, it can and will become a grueling experience for all except those who actually enjoy it. IF Funcom goes back on its word on this subject, it will ruin the game in more than one way. I personally am likely to play regardless
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
A 17 pages thread pondering for a subject that's been already resolved in the CURRENT status of WoW. It's already proven that it's not impossible to tackle both competitive PvP and high end raiding, in a very gear-centric game. What I want to see is how they will implement the balance between those that afford to spend 100 hours with those that afford to spend 10 in either activity. Because I fear that that's where the whole underlying question on this thread is all about. How can a 10 hours PvP player will be able to compete with a 40 hours PvE raider that also decides to PvP. I could be wrong of course. It isn't the first time.
For all you people that think WoW solved it's raid/pvp problem, wake up. WoW didn't solve crap. They just added raiding to PVP. Grind BG's for gear. Grind arena for gear. You have to be one of the elite fear classes to compete of coarse. Now if you don't hae 300 resil you can forget about getting it because you aren't getting invited. Which is funny because all those nw subs are going to quite because they can't get a PVE group because they don't have raid gear and can't get a premade because they don't have 300 resil.
WoW is the ultamate failure at pvp. PVP grind with out meaning. No world based losses or gains for PVP. To keep pvpers from dieing to raiders in 1 hit and to keep them entertained and grinding they put the same gear based whoring grind in PVP. But if you think your season 2 owns pve raiders your a freaking joke and have never fought some one in T6. They are going to kill your ass.
For once in this thread, I'm going to have to agree with Felix here. WOW's solution is not a viable solution for this game, or the majority of the people who wish to play it. There are many of us in the PvP category who have little to no desire to run raids for gear, and the same is true for the many PVEers as well. If staying competitive requires raiding, it can and will become a grueling experience for all except those who actually enjoy it. IF Funcom goes back on its word on this subject, it will ruin the game in more than one way. I personally am likely to play regardless
I'm going to third Felix. What he described is exactly the reason I quit WoW. Not that I consider it PvP raiding - you can't just randomly label anything you don't like raiding, and 5 man arena teams are definitely not a 40 or 25 man raid - but the gear-centric raid grind where there's only like 4-5 classes that matter with only 1-2 builds even with the classes that matter was pure butt. It was terrible. It was like the instances in the Burning Crusade - they took the concept of instance, which had all these amazing things, escort events, arenas, rooms you had to approach a certain way, a summoning ritual for a dead god, basically infinite cool. And what did they do? Except for the CoT, EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE was pull, kill, pull, kill. Oh yeah, and people WOULDN'T GO to BM or Durnhold, because they had to think a little.
The raiding was slightly better, but seriously, you could fall asleep in SSC half the time, just from how damn boring the place was. Ditto the Eye. Anyone who says Blizzard spends all their time on raids has never raided. Kara was interesting visually, but SSC and The Eye might as well have been named 'reuse old textures instance.'
If AoC really does flop, and WotLK does what its supposed to, and gives us PvP that matters along with the original style of PvE - i.e. interesting - I might go back. Maybe. But that's only if AoC and Aion flop.
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
First of all we will have the people who just start either PvPing or PvEing. Those people will have no decent gear in either category to unbalance things if they decide to cross-play.
Then we will have end game raiders with corresponding gear spending a fraction of their raiding time into PvP. This is the situation I was referring to as 40 hours raider vs 10 hours PvPer. How much of an advantage is a raider going to have towards a person who just starts PvPIng, somebody that has PvPed a bit and a top PvPer?
Again lets look at the reverse situation. A top end PvPer with corresponding gear. How much of a gap is going to have with an entry level raider and how much with a end game raider when he applies his gear in raiding?
A person with so much free time as to play in both top end PvPer and top end raiding will unquestionably have the biggest advantage of all, but that's something rare. At least, I think it is.
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I think that the most annoying part in most situations is to have somebody with little grasp and time spend on one activity, to totally dominate it due to extreme time spent in the other activity.
The goal here is to make both activiities viable without making one a necessity to be decent at the other.
WoW may have a "meaningless" PvP (debatable since all FPS PvP is meaningless in this context), but gear wise, they have managed to achieve a pretty good segregation between the two activities at this point in time. I'm not debating in favour of WoW, I'm just commenting on a point where they have succeeded something that some people think impossible and expect (well, considering it took Blizzard 3 years) to at least capitalise on the experience and strive for some balance.
If they can manage to include both raiding and PvPing as exclusive activities, I'm all in favour. They seem to believe that they have the balance sorted. I'm sceptical about this, since I don't believe that such balance can be achieved with anything but a living game (Betas could show the maturity of PvP, perhaps. Certainly not the maturity of raiding. And certainly not their correlation. In my opinion of course).
Oh well. Best case scenario, we'll end up with a good game to occupy our free time. Worst case scenario, we'll move to the next contender in line.
Neither aspect is going to make soloers very happy. But that doesn't seem to be the market that AOC is aiming for, either.
Oh... quite the opposite. Soloers and ambitious casuals know who they are. They know that their way to "endgame" is X times longer then it is for a guy with a daily static group or raid guild. Those kind of players accept it and work for it. Basically its allready part of endgame to analyze gameplay and build a strat to come as close as possible to the top.
There is always a chance to make friends and always a chance to show that you are a good healer or damagedealer. Even if your gear is, lets say 10%, lower then others. Never met that guy in blue and yellow who plain was a better healer then this pink equiped raider ?
It is possible to be a merc in AoC and it is possible to use some good old social skill to get a spot in a raid. Well not in tier based raids ... However, from the view of a soloer the problem PvP vs. raid PvE gear is not that big. For him its the default situation to have not the best gear available. Soloers know that it need patience. In that light even the worst raid hater can do a raid a month and catch up. Yeah, takes ages But it can be just another challange to accept, adapt and doing it
Neanderthal thanks for the info. I was kinda looking forward to this game, but like you said it looks like WOW all over again. Grats to all the raiders I guess. If this info turns out wrong I'll give it a 2nd consideration but for now I guess I'll wait and see how WAR turns out.
haha, well. I followed a different topic on another website out there. WHile reading something different at buffed.de i saw theri link to the Oslo event.
Its german so i understand it a bit better then english:
"Die Raid-Instanzen werden im wöchentlichen Turnus zurückgesetzt. Zwischen diesen Resets wird der Fortschritt Eurer Gruppe aber gespeichert. Die Entwickler planen die Raids einsteigerfreundlicher als die große Konkurrenz. Einmal getötete Trash-Mobs sollen nicht mehr neu auftauchen."
It means the raid instances will reset weekly, but save the progression of your group. Once killed trash wont spawn again.
This is kindergarden raiding You guys are seriously upset because of this ? This is the most casual raiding possible. From the view of a raider its a joke
It still is needed to progress into the next tier. To me = lame but as some others have said for raiders good for you. I want pvp or even better yet RVR so i ll be heading to ah hell i ll be honest was never going to play this over WAR just till it came out but who knows War might release first
Of course there is some speculation in all of this. But everything I speculate about is based on official information, logic, and the lessons of the past.
One of the most speculative things I said in my orignial post was that a guild would probably have to raid a particular target at least 24 times to get everything they need from it. Yes that was pure speculation. It might be more like 50 times. Would you like to suggest that all 24 people in a raid will get everything that a given target has to offer in the first run through? You could speculate that they would but I think most people would laugh at the thought.
So would you care to go into any specifics about any of this? Or do you prefer to just vaguely imply that I don't know what I'm talking about.
Comments
It doesnt really matter how PvE is balanced against PvP to me. The substraction method is fine. I wanted to point out that Raid gear is PvE gear and it works outside of raid dungeons too. Thats my point. The substraction on raid items should be done always outside of raid dungeons. Not only while PvPing.
My rather simple example of math is the result of many years playing. Especially MMO's reach sooner or later a point i call "The Point of Overkill". This is the point where a game kills itself. Result of my observations is, that PvE, PvP and Raid should have the same baseline. Theoretically a level 1 raid mob should be a level 1 player multiplied by 24. The challange should never be the itemization but the ability of 24 people to use their player and hotbar skills in a team. Itemization should not be there, because the 24 people raid allready has a huge number of buffs.
The overkill happens when devs cater for raiders to much. The rewards get better and better and to maintain some challange the raid mobs get harder and harder. The difference between a causal and a raider is growing and growing to a point where a, let say yellow equiped, casual is 1.5 to 2.3 tiers lower then a raider. At that point a new expansion with a new tier or levels is almost impossible. The content to level up is boring trivial for those raiders, but DEVs cant make it harder , because the casuals never could beat a solo mob. The game slowly bleeds to death from there... just my 2 cents.
Bottom line is this: PvPers do not want to raid, grp or farm after they hit top lvl, they just want to pvp.
The only concern is if the people who prefer doing all the content pvpers wont do will have an advantage in a show-down. Since FC has released absolutely no information and people have to interpret what has been said and speculate let the thread die and w8 for the NDA to be lifted.
The only thing that is certain so far is that raiders will have the oppurtunity to enjoy that aspect of the game in AOC.
On a sidenote how is the assassin's burst dmg? any clues?
The Barbarian has the best dps closely followed by the Conq in a frenzy stance, then maybe Assassin from what I saw, but again they are still tweaking.
About raiding and PvP - Raid Drops wont carry Sockets you can add to or manipulate. The stats on the gear is the stats on the gear.
PvP wise a crafted item can have up to 4 sockets/slots for gems meaning that I'm 99% sure a crafted item will be better than a raid drop in PvP. This is the way the devs put it across in plain English.
Countless times they have said you don't have to raid to get the best items, especially for PvP.
My concerns here are rather abstract, because i will be a true casual and for that AoC offers a lot.
I for one think you can use PvE as fuel for PVP instead of two seperate activities. Look to Eve. It promotes cooperation and risk vs win oppertunities. The wow approach is just too unrealistic imo.
---
And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.
John Smedley, SOE
Actually, the information he does have is quite valid, in fact its a variation on something I quoted to him. The problem is partially one of hard statistics, which we don't have for comparison, and partially interpretation.
Ok, so am I off the hook for digging up the information on that? Aelfinn if you know exactly where to find a more detailed dev explaination of this maybe you could share it with us.
The idea of negative PvP modifiers on items is interesting but of course I am highly skeptical of that. I don't remember ever reading any mention of negative modifiers. But I've also never read that there won't be negative modifiers. I don't remember ever seeing it mentioned before at all to be honest.
I am extremely skeptical of it because it goes against the very nature of a progression game. People chase after item upgrades specifically because they are better. I find it hard to believe that the devs will cap PvP effectiveness of items at a certain level and never raise the cap.
Remember that there is no item decay or loss. Once you get a piece of equipment it lasts forever. So what about their supposed method for PvP rewards. I think that there probably will be something like that because they are already planning to include PvP mini-games like capture the flag. So that's probably how people will earn PvP rewards.
But do you honestly believe that they would NEVER up the ante with bigger and bigger rewards? If that were the case then once people maxed out their equipment for PvP the whole rewards system (assuming there is one) would be obsolete and they might as well have not included it at all.
And think about what they would have to do with raid drops. The PvE numbers most definately will get bigger and bigger over time. So the PvP nerfing would also have to increase in direct proportion to keep PvP stats at a fixed level.
Using purely hypothetical numbers; let's say that early in the game a 1st tier raid drop sword has 120 damage (PvE). The devs want to keep PvP damage down to a maximum of 100. Ok, that sword needs to have a -20 PvP modifier.
Then, much later in the game after an expansion or two, there are raid swords dropping that have 700 damage (PvE). Those swords would have to have -600 PvP modifiers on them. I really can't believe that that would happen.
No, I think that item stats for PvP will grow and grow over time. I have no doubt about it but, again, I have to say that I can't prove it. Aelfinn can you provide any solid evidence that they are planning to use negitive PvP modifiers at all? If you can't it doesn't mean that they won't, I'm just curious because I can't remember ever seeing anything about that.
Ok, and in regards to solo and small group PvE I also don't recall the devs ever saying that raid equipment would have negative modifiers in non-raid PvE. I don't think any of you said it would but the idea was floating around here. That would be kind of pointless anyway if there isn't any end-game for solo and small group PvE. In PvE my problem with raiding is that it replaces solo and small group play and those playstyles simply end. If devs allow ongoing progression for the non-raider then the rewards would be comparable to raid rewards simply due to the nature of progression (numbers getting bigger and bigger) and they have made it clear that that isn't going to happen.
Its only human that people, especially experienced mmo players, assume and comapare with games they played.
You can compare two things if you know both, how can you compare a knew game with an especulation?
Just for you to know: They are doing technical betas, there is no "closed/open beta" with the full game. So before doing an affirmation like the OP did, wait for the game and gather some information over time.
Actually, no. I haven't seen anything about that.
It is however one way to do it, and I merely intended to show some items being comparatively more or less usefull in PvP than they might be elsewhere. I used the term rating deliberately. It is rare that raw damage or protection is the only consideration in a piece of equipment, particularly going by AO's example.
As to quotes concerning this topic, I'll see what I can dig up again.
And no, I have no doubts that PvP gear will have progression, however it is obtained.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
To be fair, it seems that there is still very much up in the air about alot of the high end content... including raid loot. There was noone from the high end department at the Q&A you read. Im not even certain if it was the whole transcript, as it was nearly a 2 hour question-fest.
Having the video on my computer right now, I followed along with your quotes and reasoning. All I can say, is: Maybe you should watch the video. It lends a different light on a few of your quotes. Having heard them in context it makes all the difference.
I would be more worried about the game being finished and polished 1-20, than a raid and loot system they dont even have set up yet.
Ill try to post the link for the Q&A I DL'd.
EDIT*
Here is part one of the Q&A. Give it a glance.
http://community.ageofconan.com/wsp/conan/frontend.cgi?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss&utm_content=front_page_news&func=publish.show&template=content&func_id=2201&table=CONTENT
you know gaute was there right? The number 1 in AOC development. No he didn't take it out of context, it's as bad as it sounds. Guate is clearly a raid fan and is driving the game in that direction. His mistake to make since it is their game. If it turns out PVP is a fucking arena grind AKA raid PVP then I'll go some where else.For all those that say guild pvp is raiding, only thing in common is the name. I have played L2 and DAOC and guild based PVP is nothing like raiding.
I hate to say it, but you are correct and I do agree with you. That system is raid-tastic and if anyone gives a valid 2 cents as to why its not, you should get a prize.
I hate to say it, but you are correct and I do agree with you. That system is raid-tastic and if anyone gives a valid 2 cents as to why its not, you should get a prize.
Valid two cents: THE FRIKKIN GAME ISN'T RELEASED YET!
If you're that worried, just wait a month and read the reviews before buying it. Otherwise, buy it and take your chances. I am almost completely sure its a better place to spend your money than any of the 2007 RPGs, sight unseen.
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson
A 17 pages thread pondering for a subject that's been already resolved in the CURRENT status of WoW. It's already proven that it's not impossible to tackle both competitive PvP and high end raiding, in a very gear-centric game.
What I want to see is how they will implement the balance between those that afford to spend 100 hours with those that afford to spend 10 in either activity. Because I fear that that's where the whole underlying question on this thread is all about. How can a 10 hours PvP player will be able to compete with a 40 hours PvE raider that also decides to PvP.
I could be wrong of course. It isn't the first time.
But Xasapsis, aren't you now talking about hardcore vs casual gamer?
Whether it is raid loot, or level grinding, or whatever - virtually every MMORPG to date has put an emphasis on "s/he who plays the most, wins" when it comes to pvp. This is not likely to change anytime soon. Even Shadowbane, which was arguably the least level and gear oriented pvp game ever still had a MASSIVE focus on the hardcore player; it was one of the most "casual gamers need not apply" games that I have ever played.
So we've seen from SB that having no raids, giving every player access to every item, and letting people hit max level in a week or so doesn't level the playing field in pvp. Frankly, nothing will, unless we dump the ENTIRE content system prevailent in MMOGs today, and opt for a totally player skill approach with no character leveling at all. Either twitch or strategy based, a player skill system with no leveling would certainly still have skill increase over time - practice makes perfect. But to some degree, good players would be good players, and bad ones would be bad ones, and time spent in the game would have less meaning toward that measurement.
Of course, that leaves the sticky question of "what would players DO in game then?"
If you remove level and raid grinds, you still need to figure out some sort of content that will keep people busy for 10-40 hrs a week for 6+ months. When you do that, pitch it to some venture capitalists; there's a lot of interested players.
For AOC... Think about it this way. How long you play is GOING to matter. People who play more are GOING to have an edge in pvp - from levels, gear, or even just simply from being around more often so their guild has more numbers online during key times so they win more fights.
HOW that advantage comes through is the sticky point. One of the failings of SB was a lack of non-pvp content. Players could pvp all day long, and did - because that's all there was to do. The net result was either manic, insane wars where you almost had to be logged in 20+hrs a day, or periods of dead time where nothing was going on at all.
Having a strong pve content set helps ammelioriate this issue a great deal. Giving the players something to do besides destroy each other is actually critical. One of the more successful pvp servers, AC1-Darktide, accomplished this pretty well by accident. Players pvped - a LOT! But they also had to focus on leveling, since the level max was always very high. In fact, combat for control of key leveling areas was a big part of the game there. This gave the game two major parts - pve, which you always had to keep working on to get/stay competitive; and pvp, which could pop up at any time to make life "interesting".
I see AOC heading down this road a bit. After all, there is really no effective difference between grinding raids and grinding levels, except that the former tends to require more large group coordination. This actually means that raid-pve probably fits better into a guild vs guild game than grind-pve, since the guilds are already there and already integral for the pvp. By making the endgame pve content raids instead of leveling, you focus BOTH pvp and pve aspects of the game on group/guild activity, giving players more reason to do more things together.
Neither aspect is going to make soloers very happy. But that doesn't seem to be the market that AOC is aiming for, either.
Owyn
Commander, Defenders of Order
http://www.defendersoforder.com
For all you people that think WoW solved it's raid/pvp problem, wake up. WoW didn't solve crap. They just added raiding to PVP. Grind BG's for gear. Grind arena for gear. You have to be one of the elite fear classes to compete of coarse. Now if you don't hae 300 resil you can forget about getting it because you aren't getting invited. Which is funny because all those nw subs are going to quite because they can't get a PVE group because they don't have raid gear and can't get a premade because they don't have 300 resil.
WoW is the ultamate failure at pvp. PVP grind with out meaning. No world based losses or gains for PVP. To keep pvpers from dieing to raiders in 1 hit and to keep them entertained and grinding they put the same gear based whoring grind in PVP. But if you think your season 2 owns pve raiders your a freaking joke and have never fought some one in T6. They are going to kill your ass.
For all you people that think WoW solved it's raid/pvp problem, wake up. WoW didn't solve crap. They just added raiding to PVP. Grind BG's for gear. Grind arena for gear. You have to be one of the elite fear classes to compete of coarse. Now if you don't hae 300 resil you can forget about getting it because you aren't getting invited. Which is funny because all those nw subs are going to quite because they can't get a PVE group because they don't have raid gear and can't get a premade because they don't have 300 resil.
WoW is the ultamate failure at pvp. PVP grind with out meaning. No world based losses or gains for PVP. To keep pvpers from dieing to raiders in 1 hit and to keep them entertained and grinding they put the same gear based whoring grind in PVP. But if you think your season 2 owns pve raiders your a freaking joke and have never fought some one in T6. They are going to kill your ass.
For once in this thread, I'm going to have to agree with Felix here. WOW's solution is not a viable solution for this game, or the majority of the people who wish to play it. There are many of us in the PvP category who have little to no desire to run raids for gear, and the same is true for the many PVEers as well. If staying competitive requires raiding, it can and will become a grueling experience for all except those who actually enjoy it. IF Funcom goes back on its word on this subject, it will ruin the game in more than one way. I personally am likely to play regardless
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
For all you people that think WoW solved it's raid/pvp problem, wake up. WoW didn't solve crap. They just added raiding to PVP. Grind BG's for gear. Grind arena for gear. You have to be one of the elite fear classes to compete of coarse. Now if you don't hae 300 resil you can forget about getting it because you aren't getting invited. Which is funny because all those nw subs are going to quite because they can't get a PVE group because they don't have raid gear and can't get a premade because they don't have 300 resil.
WoW is the ultamate failure at pvp. PVP grind with out meaning. No world based losses or gains for PVP. To keep pvpers from dieing to raiders in 1 hit and to keep them entertained and grinding they put the same gear based whoring grind in PVP. But if you think your season 2 owns pve raiders your a freaking joke and have never fought some one in T6. They are going to kill your ass.
For once in this thread, I'm going to have to agree with Felix here. WOW's solution is not a viable solution for this game, or the majority of the people who wish to play it. There are many of us in the PvP category who have little to no desire to run raids for gear, and the same is true for the many PVEers as well. If staying competitive requires raiding, it can and will become a grueling experience for all except those who actually enjoy it. IF Funcom goes back on its word on this subject, it will ruin the game in more than one way. I personally am likely to play regardless
I'm going to third Felix. What he described is exactly the reason I quit WoW. Not that I consider it PvP raiding - you can't just randomly label anything you don't like raiding, and 5 man arena teams are definitely not a 40 or 25 man raid - but the gear-centric raid grind where there's only like 4-5 classes that matter with only 1-2 builds even with the classes that matter was pure butt. It was terrible. It was like the instances in the Burning Crusade - they took the concept of instance, which had all these amazing things, escort events, arenas, rooms you had to approach a certain way, a summoning ritual for a dead god, basically infinite cool. And what did they do? Except for the CoT, EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE was pull, kill, pull, kill. Oh yeah, and people WOULDN'T GO to BM or Durnhold, because they had to think a little.The raiding was slightly better, but seriously, you could fall asleep in SSC half the time, just from how damn boring the place was. Ditto the Eye. Anyone who says Blizzard spends all their time on raids has never raided. Kara was interesting visually, but SSC and The Eye might as well have been named 'reuse old textures instance.'
If AoC really does flop, and WotLK does what its supposed to, and gives us PvP that matters along with the original style of PvE - i.e. interesting - I might go back. Maybe. But that's only if AoC and Aion flop.
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson
I'm afraid I have not worded myself properly.
First of all we will have the people who just start either PvPing or PvEing. Those people will have no decent gear in either category to unbalance things if they decide to cross-play.
Then we will have end game raiders with corresponding gear spending a fraction of their raiding time into PvP. This is the situation I was referring to as 40 hours raider vs 10 hours PvPer. How much of an advantage is a raider going to have towards a person who just starts PvPIng, somebody that has PvPed a bit and a top PvPer?
Again lets look at the reverse situation. A top end PvPer with corresponding gear. How much of a gap is going to have with an entry level raider and how much with a end game raider when he applies his gear in raiding?
A person with so much free time as to play in both top end PvPer and top end raiding will unquestionably have the biggest advantage of all, but that's something rare. At least, I think it is.
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I think that the most annoying part in most situations is to have somebody with little grasp and time spend on one activity, to totally dominate it due to extreme time spent in the other activity.
The goal here is to make both activiities viable without making one a necessity to be decent at the other.
WoW may have a "meaningless" PvP (debatable since all FPS PvP is meaningless in this context), but gear wise, they have managed to achieve a pretty good segregation between the two activities at this point in time. I'm not debating in favour of WoW, I'm just commenting on a point where they have succeeded something that some people think impossible and expect (well, considering it took Blizzard 3 years) to at least capitalise on the experience and strive for some balance.
If they can manage to include both raiding and PvPing as exclusive activities, I'm all in favour. They seem to believe that they have the balance sorted. I'm sceptical about this, since I don't believe that such balance can be achieved with anything but a living game (Betas could show the maturity of PvP, perhaps. Certainly not the maturity of raiding. And certainly not their correlation. In my opinion of course).
Oh well. Best case scenario, we'll end up with a good game to occupy our free time. Worst case scenario, we'll move to the next contender in line.
Oh... quite the opposite. Soloers and ambitious casuals know who they are. They know that their way to "endgame" is X times longer then it is for a guy with a daily static group or raid guild. Those kind of players accept it and work for it. Basically its allready part of endgame to analyze gameplay and build a strat to come as close as possible to the top.
There is always a chance to make friends and always a chance to show that you are a good healer or damagedealer. Even if your gear is, lets say 10%, lower then others. Never met that guy in blue and yellow who plain was a better healer then this pink equiped raider ?
It is possible to be a merc in AoC and it is possible to use some good old social skill to get a spot in a raid. Well not in tier based raids ... However, from the view of a soloer the problem PvP vs. raid PvE gear is not that big. For him its the default situation to have not the best gear available. Soloers know that it need patience. In that light even the worst raid hater can do a raid a month and catch up. Yeah, takes ages
But it can be just another challange to accept, adapt and doing it 
Neanderthal thanks for the info. I was kinda looking forward to this game, but like you said it looks like WOW all over again. Grats to all the raiders I guess. If this info turns out wrong I'll give it a 2nd consideration but for now I guess I'll wait and see how WAR turns out.
haha, well. I followed a different topic on another website out there. WHile reading something different at buffed.de i saw theri link to the Oslo event.
Its german so i understand it a bit better then english:
"Die Raid-Instanzen werden im wöchentlichen Turnus zurückgesetzt. Zwischen diesen Resets wird der Fortschritt Eurer Gruppe aber gespeichert. Die Entwickler planen die Raids einsteigerfreundlicher als die große Konkurrenz. Einmal getötete Trash-Mobs sollen nicht mehr neu auftauchen."
It means the raid instances will reset weekly, but save the progression of your group. Once killed trash wont spawn again.
This is kindergarden raiding
You guys are seriously upset because of this ? This is the most casual raiding possible. From the view of a raider its a joke 
It still is needed to progress into the next tier. To me = lame but as some others have said for raiders good for you. I want pvp or even better yet RVR so i ll be heading to ah hell i ll be honest was never going to play this over WAR just till it came out but who knows War might release first
OP Speculation, trust me.
One of the most speculative things I said in my orignial post was that a guild would probably have to raid a particular target at least 24 times to get everything they need from it. Yes that was pure speculation. It might be more like 50 times. Would you like to suggest that all 24 people in a raid will get everything that a given target has to offer in the first run through? You could speculate that they would but I think most people would laugh at the thought.
So would you care to go into any specifics about any of this? Or do you prefer to just vaguely imply that I don't know what I'm talking about.