""<~DelmarWynn> Zvyr: Will there be attainable stat caps like there were in DAoC? <@[WAR]Gersh>; Currently we don't have a stat Hard Cap <@[WAR]Gersh>; The way our stats are designed is every stat is a "Tug of War" with another stat <@[WAR]Gersh>; For example the amount of extra damage bonused to melee attack is a direct comparison between your Str and your opponents toughness <@[WAR]Gersh>; so if your opponent is too tough then no bonus for you <@[WAR]Gersh>; that being said there is a soft cap of diminishing returns <@[WAR]Gersh>; even against the weakest opponent strength will only take you so far""
So even with gear based stats, it only takes you so far. Of course this whole thread is speculation. I don't really understand why people cant just sit back and wait until they try things for themselves.
I play EQ2 and even tho gear matters much it cannot beat teamwork. Period
And no I would never agree to be a slave by the game and I'm 100% sure Warhammer won't require you to become one. Since all games including WoW haven't forced me to be one. It's how you choose to play
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
40% is not 100% obviosly, would you rather play a game like World of Warcraft where your gear makes or breaks you in pvp?
I have fought in Wow bgs since the original AV was lv 60 with Elite bosses in the field of Strife. My character now has all epic gear from pvp rewarsd (season one).
I have critted other cloth wearers for a high damage of 4576 and another 2nd high of 4100 and change just today. Prior to playing tons of hours pvping to get this gear my character under performed badly and lost one on one to alot of classes.
Now of course this doesn't explain all the poor aspects of 100% gear dependability in games, but for all the Wow players out there you know Warriors are one of the hardest classes to beat for a hunter in a one on one scenario. Charge -hamstring execute its over pretty much. however I have crushed under geared warriors of late because I do tons of damage and they dont have the resilence to avoid my massive crits.
I personally am a fan of rock paper sciccors seeing as how its more realistic to have natural strenths and weaknesses vs casters/mele/tanks etc.
Wow is jsut one example if you belong to a really good raiding guild and have the top gear, you dominate other classes or same classes on sheer gear power and abilities vs any skill.
I have fallen victim to many super geared rouges, warriors, warlocks without even a chance, and then later punished undergeared same classes so bad i felt almost like I was cheating.
Gear imo should never be the "All" factor but at least the attempt here from what I understand is to give players some sense of achievment obtaining gear, rvr, pve, public quests, exploring etc but at the same time making what tactics and skills you choose decide how well you do against certain classes.
I can live with 40% believe me its alot better than the craziness going on in Wow pvp.
With that same statement WoW's gear isn't important so the statement is quite meaningless in that sense -_-
In that sense, yes, and that's a personal blunder by being ambiguous. My apologies.
When I played WoW, I PvP'd (BG's) frequently as an under geared holy priest, and I did fine. When I was with others. One on one (classic PvP, still BG's), I was screwed. I quit WoW at 57 because I did not have the time an energy to exert myself to its endgame.
Now, WAR is RvR, and ultimately team based (every realm is essentially one huge team anyway). Therefore, better gear isn't going to be the ultimate breaker on the battlefield, so why implement it?
WAR just shortens the gap between the "hardcore" and the "casual" (though neither of these titles imply skill), compared to WoW's gap.
I dont care if WAR has raids for people who enjoy pve but all that matters is....
~DelmarWynn> LotD|Niix: How much effect will PvE have on PvP success? Will PvP-oriented guilds be forced to man a successful PvE effort in order to be competitive in PvP?
[WAR]Gersh> Short answer is No. You can choose to play how you want , good rewards will be available in both paths and you'll be able to succeed in PvP without having to PvE. Even more so since we hinted some of the best items come from Cap Cities
Can't we just stop speculate and wait untill we're actually playing the game, I'm sure there's going to be a trial then we can decide.
Meanwhile... there's a world outhere...
EDIT: oh and by the way I forgot to mention I've read the whole thread to see if someone would say it. Funny thing is the last post said it all! Thanks Gurkz!! I was about to say the exact same thing.
But you will have "STAT CAPS" which stop you from gaining insane amounts of gear item based advantages.
this is what you are over looking. You can get the +200 sword of doom but the stregnth that it adds will never be allowed to go over your total str cap from all items. And of course, all end game items will have the same Damage, but will seperate damage types and attack speeds.
it may sound insane to belive those of you who come from Warcraft... but it is just more of the same for those tat came from DAoC because thats how it was there, and it worked. think of warhammer as an artifact-less DAoC
Just as Kraiden stated, there will be stat caps. Which generally rules out heavy gear dependency.
For the players that started with WoW, these are not baseball caps to put on your stats.
Stat caps keep players around a similar level of efficiency, preventing one person from becoming entirely overpowered through gear. So as a player you can focus on finding gear that improves each of your stats that apply to your class. Rather than focusing on one stat with all of your gear, in an attempt to have massive amounts of strength or agility or intelligence to become godly and fantastic.
For example, a Tank with a secondary ability as a chanter. Very much like a Paladin in DAoC.
Your main stats as a tank will obviously be Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, Quickness.
As a secondary caster you will also have another important stat such as Intelligence or Peity.
These important stats will have a cap for increase.
The ones not listed will be unimportant to your performance and not offer increase or cap.
But you will have "STAT CAPS" which stop you from gaining insane amounts of gear item based advantages. this is what you are over looking. You can get the +200 sword of doom but the stregnth that it adds will never be allowed to go over your total str cap from all items. And of course, all end game items will have the same Damage, but will seperate damage types and attack speeds. it may sound insane to belive those of you who come from Warcraft... but it is just more of the same for those tat came from DAoC because thats how it was there, and it worked. think of warhammer as an artifact-less DAoC
I've actually read that they won't have hardcaps like Daoc had but softcaps, meaning i think it's more like diminishing returns but *not* a direct stop.
Not sure what I was supposed to pay attention to...
40% is not 0% or anywhere near 0% and it is much closer to 70% then 0% so...huh?
Call me crazy but I just want to play a game where all my gear is equal to those around me. Or at least give me the option of easily getting that armor like with all the classic MMORPGs we all have fond memories of. You'd buy it off some player who was really good at crafting armor. If a player kicked mine olde arse in ye olden games, then I'd bow to him in respect - he beat ME.
It is a needless timesink and I for one am getting sick of seeing this crap in game development. Stop wasting our time, if you have a great end game (WARs big selling point) then give it to us fast and let us play as the game as it is supposed to be played. Leveling, kill X for Y quests, and gear loot tables = poor game design pure and simple. Give us something better!
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
You think daoc is a raid game? I was NOT FORCED TO RAID TO COMPETE. I never killed the dragon for loot, look at me i can still compete and kill people that did go on the raids. the raids are optional, Play classic if you dont like to do mls. or buy them with BPs you gimp. and if your to gimp to afford items using bps, go out and kill someone. not my fault you suck
*laugh* You're cute. I wish I could have met you in DAoC and saw you "compete" with people like Tedious Ten or the like. You just shattered all believability you ever might have had in my eyes. Cheers. ^^
Player crafted gear can compete with raid gear. Without a doubt.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Not sure what I was supposed to pay attention to... 40% is not 0% or anywhere near 0% and it is much closer to 70% then 0% so...huh? Call me crazy but I just want to play a game where all my gear is equal to those around me. Or at least give me the option of easily getting that armor like with all the classic MMORPGs we all have fond memories of. You'd buy it off some player who was really good at crafting armor. If a player kicked mine olde arse in ye olden games, then I'd bow to him in respect - he beat ME. It is a needless timesink and I for one am getting sick of seeing this crap in game development. Stop wasting our time, if you have a great end game (WARs big selling point) then give it to us fast and let us play as the game as it is supposed to be played. Leveling, kill X for Y quests, and gear loot tables = poor game design pure and simple. Give us something better!
You obviously don't understand what WAR is or how mmorpgs work.
The point of the game is RvR. If you played DAoC or SWG you might know about this concept. It is the coming together of people for the entire purpose of slaughtering your enemy. Not for loot per say but for the shear enjoyment of frustrating or crushing your enemy. If you PvP you will get your PvP gear. Gear won't make such a huge difference that a rank 40 player in +3 gear will smash a rank 40 in +1 gear. Career choices and tactic load outs will be a large part of whether you are succesful or not.
Gear itself is a form of progression as much as levels are. As I level up I want to get armor that makes it look like you shouldn't mess with me. If I kill a fire dragon then I except to get armor that makes me immune or damn near it to fire. As I slaughter more of my enemies I expect to be rewarded by my realm for my deeds.
It isn't like WoW where you need to spend 4-5 hours a night with 24 other people you don't like to try and get the best gear available. There will be gear that takes more time to achieve but that is what MMO's are all about. The more you play the better your rewards are.
Bottom line- If you PvP you will get competitive PvP gear
If you PvE you will get PvE gear
If you do both you will have access to both PvE and PvP gear sets.
You cannot expect to log in for 3 hours in a week and get the best items in the game. If you want that then maybe you should play an FPS.
It isn't like WoW where you need to spend 4-5 hours a night with 24 other people you don't like to try and get the best gear available. There will be gear that takes more time to achieve but that is what MMO's are all about. The more you play the better your rewards are. Bottom line- If you PvP you will get competitive PvP gear If you PvE you will get PvE gear If you do both you will have access to both PvE and PvP gear sets. You cannot expect to log in for 3 hours in a week and get the best items in the game. If you want that then maybe you should play an FPS.
Lol? What you're describing is exactly WoW these days.
You PvP you get pvP gear, you PvE you get PvE gear.
I like how those PvE extremists think they know how every MMORPG should be. Always a good laugh to read them
Now it's okay to have your opinions guys, but don't make it like it's the inevitable truth. Just because many MMOs work like that at the moment doesn't need it has to be that way.
There are actually people who like to have fun instead of grind/farm items in a boring timesink activity.. Trust me, it's true! They are actually called "real PvP players".
And games without timesinks can be successful too because of these people. (yeah I know it's unbelievable such strange people exist!)
Skill/equipment progression is not required for MMORPGs, not even an RPGs. Now you can claim the opposite if you want, but you have to know there'll be people laughing at you.
You think daoc is a raid game? I was NOT FORCED TO RAID TO COMPETE. I never killed the dragon for loot, look at me i can still compete and kill people that did go on the raids. the raids are optional, Play classic if you dont like to do mls. or buy them with BPs you gimp. and if your to gimp to afford items using bps, go out and kill someone. not my fault you suck
*laugh* You're cute. I wish I could have met you in DAoC and saw you "compete" with people like Tedious Ten or the like. You just shattered all believability you ever might have had in my eyes. Cheers. ^^
Player crafted gear can compete with raid gear. Without a doubt.
This is one reason I hate Woobs ( WoW Noobs ) because they automatically think that because WoW did it, every other game must be doing it. DAoC came out before WoW and is by far a much better designed game in my opinion and if WAR is even 1/2 as good as DAoC, it'll be better than WoW.
Stop worrying about item dependancy and be constructive and find alternate avenues of aquiring said items, cause items are here to stay and theres nothing we can do about it.
Hmm if you are refering to me ... why? Myabe your not , but still 1/2 a set in daoc, on classic or toa servers, can and should be player made (thats how strong it is).
ps i played daoc the 2nd day it was out (couldn't get in the first day, didn't get my game yet). played duris a diku based mud for ever, 10siix, m59, list goes on.
Originally posted by Pheace
Originally posted by Distaste
It isn't like WoW where you need to spend 4-5 hours a night with 24 other people you don't like to try and get the best gear available. There will be gear that takes more time to achieve but that is what MMO's are all about. The more you play the better your rewards are. Bottom line- If you PvP you will get competitive PvP gear If you PvE you will get PvE gear If you do both you will have access to both PvE and PvP gear sets. You cannot expect to log in for 3 hours in a week and get the best items in the game. If you want that then maybe you should play an FPS.
Lol? What you're describing is exactly WoW these days.
You PvP you get pvP gear, you PvE you get PvE gear.
You seem to be quite outdated
Well i eblieve that person miss-informed. There will be equip from pve, tomb, and pvp, however from what the have said all of it is pve equip and all of it is pve equip.
The multi-use equip system is old and frankly a error or band-aid that wow used to fix a giant problem of equipment scaling. Other retarted game makers have followed in doing this becuase ... wow did it so it must be good. One such game is AoC. However, this is not on the tables for WAR.
So please stop saying it will be. The facts are you can get the equipment from doing pvp or pve or unlocks. See when you do pvp you get this thing called (i forget its name like infemy or reputation basicly) and with it you can complete quests and get loots. Well doing pve also gives you this so you can get the very same rewards ... Easy and logical system. Its basicly money for equip, and quests. At least thats what it looks like.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
It isn't like WoW where you need to spend 4-5 hours a night with 24 other people you don't like to try and get the best gear available. There will be gear that takes more time to achieve but that is what MMO's are all about. The more you play the better your rewards are. Bottom line- If you PvP you will get competitive PvP gear If you PvE you will get PvE gear If you do both you will have access to both PvE and PvP gear sets. You cannot expect to log in for 3 hours in a week and get the best items in the game. If you want that then maybe you should play an FPS.
Lol? What you're describing is exactly WoW these days.
You PvP you get pvP gear, you PvE you get PvE gear.
You seem to be quite outdated
I guess I have to go into specifics into why WoW's system is awful.
First off PvE. You don't just get epics for PvEing. You have to wait in line behind potentially 24 other people to get the loot you want. Second- It has to actually drop. Third you actually have to kill the boss. Now I don't particularly mind having to kill bosses a few times to get loot, hey thats the luck of the draw. What I don't like is having to continually depend on Retard A in my group to have a lag spike and wipe the raid. Designing encounters that need a low ping, no lag, and fast reaction time is good....for a single player console game. MMO's require leeway and thus those bosses that require everyone to do their job perfectly with no lag, etc become the Stonewall bosses. I don't mind depending on 5 other people I know to kill a boss. I do mind depending on 24 others. You don't get rewarded on your individual contribution. They have taken steps with the new badge loot and token systems but it is still a far cry from what it should be.
PvP- While the current vindicators bracers, belt, neck, ring, S1, etc are indeed "If you PvP you get PvP gear". However if you go look at the arena system where the best gear is had. The problem with this system is that the classes are not balanced for arena. Your skill and gear can be drastically out performed by the other classes the other team has. This is why Warrior/druid teams destroy lives and Warlock/druid as well. It is rediculously easy to get 1850/2000 with these makeups even while under geared. Then tack on the teams that can sell rating/point and the whole system is trivialized. So it becomes not "If you PvP you get PvP gear" but rather "If you are Class X or can pay $X you get gear". At this point they need to just put in 1v1 because it is just as balanced as 2v2 is.
So unless you join a group of Competent players in WoW, LOL, If you PvE you are not going to get the best PvE loot. Unless you are class X or can pay $X it will be substantially harder to get the best PvP loot. In WAR I believe this will change. You will be rewarded for your contribution to both PvP and PvE. Either through the ToK or from their loot distribution system. They will have a true: If you PvP you will get PvP gear and if you PvE you will get PvE gear. Not the abomination of a system that is WoW.
From the dev chat logs and the report from Caroline Koh for mmorpg.com Am I right in thinking that the best gear comes from city sieging and that city sieging could be split up into 5 instances? whats the difference from doing 5 instances in RvR to doing 5 dungeon raids for best gear? its still a timesink just like raiding, except in city sieging your be fighting NPC's too right?
So know one really answered this question then.
Im referring to what Caroline Koh reported in the other link in the first post. (in green above)
Seriously people will want the best gear naturally, and if they say this is only obtainable this way in broken up instances of a city raid what is the difference from spending the same amount of time in a dungeon raiding for the same stuff. Im not going to take pvp as an answer sorry, there will still be NPC spawns and Caroline Koh suggests maybe '5' instanced parts.
Yes good gear will be readily available but it wont be the best, many people will play to be the best they can be and if only the best items drop from a City Siege well for me if it pans out like its suggested then its NO different from a long drawn out raid. Except there will be more people attending than a raid so what chances will people have to get said best gear? minimal is my fear -> prices high.
From the dev chat logs and the report from Caroline Koh for mmorpg.com Am I right in thinking that the best gear comes from city sieging and that city sieging could be split up into 5 instances? whats the difference from doing 5 instances in RvR to doing 5 dungeon raids for best gear? its still a timesink just like raiding, except in city sieging your be fighting NPC's too right?
Well what do you expect? to be given the best gear in 5 min from logging on? Try AOC if you want twitch to be more a factor. most mmo's are just big turn based combat systems.
Disappointing, there goes the "casual" side of it. Raiding is for a certain kind of person, a person with the kind of time to devote to a guild to go on scheduled raids. I always work nights so I could never raid, and guess what, I never had the best gear and got pwned to all the people who did in WoW. It's not fun that way. Raiding is a grind, and grinding is not fun. So as long as it's this way, the hardcore player will always dominate the casual player. So what's the fucking point, thats not fun.
Hell i'll take a skill-based grind like in SWG pre-cu (prolly other games too). You grind out professions and destroy with your skills, all you needed was a powerful-enough weapon to go with your level on that skill tree and you were a bad ass. None of this epic loot shit 1/20000 chance to drop grind that get's outdated months later.
Originally posted by mwitters Well what do you expect? to be given the best gear in 5 min from logging on?
No, we want that there is NO best gear.
@pineapples: Yes the hardcore gamer has an advantage over the casual gamer. But, ALSO, the hardcore who's willing to farm/grind/whatever has an advantage over the hardcore gamer who just wanna have fun.
Games with über stuff FTL!
I personally won't play MMOs who are made to generate profit (= with stupid timesinks) anymore.
The saddest thing here isn't that most MMO's are grind based. The saddest part is that players who have no personal skill and can only be better by grinding - want to convince others how grind is unavoidable.
I play Guild Wars still, here and there. It might not be your true MMO but that's beside the point. I think Guild Wars showed that you CAN have a good lasting game without grind. Yes, there are still bits of grind there, but almost none in PvP (unlocking skills is fast now) and in PvE next to none unless for better-looking gear. Now, you can complain that GW is instanced, but what I'm trying to point out is that there ARE things to do besides levelling and grinding for items. For instance, story. Hello? Or for instance, wow incredible as it may sound but - PvP which is based on *player skill* and not items or skills. Yes, if you played 1000 hours of GW you will be better than the one who played 1 hour, but playing 1000 hours wont make u better than someone who played 100 hours if you're clueless.
I know that subscription MMO's have grind because they think that's the only way to keep customers and u know what - it is. It's the easiest cheapest way to keep customers - but not the best. It's like those soap operas. Yeah, they are utter tripe, but you know what? They are dirt cheap to make, they are all the same, and people want them.
Personally, I can't blame game companies for making grind MMO's. It's the mental level of average gamer that is to be blamed. You want grind - fine, here, you have it. Waste 12hrs per day ruining your life and not having fun at all and then maybe after 2 yrs of grinding you have the moment of happynesss "oh yey Im max level max items woohoo", except it lasts for 5min because another game just goes out that's much cooler and the process repeats. And even if it doesn't, the old game is stale already, by the time you have all gear earned by mindnumbing grinding you already are so dull that the joy in the end isn't even noticed. But hey, whatever floats your boat.
I grew up on old C=64, so maybe youngsters don't remember (or those older people who fail at Life), but game used to be played for FUN. Not to give yourself some importance like "look at me, im a loser in real life but at least im cool online because i Grinded". It's still the same with RTS and FPS games. ,
Anyway, point being, it looks like Warhammer is just yet-another-gear MMO. Sure, the difference can be 40%, but 40%, 60% 80%, who cares, if there is difference I'd rather play MMO with a setting I like more (ofc that might be WAR as well, but for me it would rather be Pirates of the Burning Sea) because any chance at PvPing goes down. It is beyond frustrated for a true PvPer to lose a match because of equipment n stuff like that. Even if gear difference was only 1%.
I am not going to rant here further, If you people like Warhammer that's all good, have a nice time. I just wanted to give another perspective. Believe it or not, there are a lot of us (not a majority of course) who like to play grindless games for Content and Fun. But we won't jump on any game that has no grind because we still care about quality.
Comments
""<~DelmarWynn> Zvyr: Will there be attainable stat caps like there were in DAoC?
<@[WAR]Gersh>; Currently we don't have a stat Hard Cap
<@[WAR]Gersh>; The way our stats are designed is every stat is a "Tug of War" with another stat
<@[WAR]Gersh>; For example the amount of extra damage bonused to melee attack is a direct comparison between your Str and your opponents toughness
<@[WAR]Gersh>; so if your opponent is too tough then no bonus for you
<@[WAR]Gersh>; that being said there is a soft cap of diminishing returns
<@[WAR]Gersh>; even against the weakest opponent strength will only take you so far""
So even with gear based stats, it only takes you so far. Of course this whole thread is speculation. I don't really understand why people cant just sit back and wait until they try things for themselves.
Jonny
And this is a problem because?
I play EQ2 and even tho gear matters much it cannot beat teamwork. Period
And no I would never agree to be a slave by the game and I'm 100% sure Warhammer won't require you to become one. Since all games including WoW haven't forced me to be one. It's how you choose to play
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
That's why WAR's gear isn't as important.
I'm not here to complete my forum PVP dailies.
Bollocks!
That's why WAR's gear isn't as important.
With that same statement WoW's gear isn't important so the statement is quite meaningless in that sense -_-
40% is not 100% obviosly, would you rather play a game like World of Warcraft where your gear makes or breaks you in pvp?
I have fought in Wow bgs since the original AV was lv 60 with Elite bosses in the field of Strife. My character now has all epic gear from pvp rewarsd (season one).
I have critted other cloth wearers for a high damage of 4576 and another 2nd high of 4100 and change just today. Prior to playing tons of hours pvping to get this gear my character under performed badly and lost one on one to alot of classes.
Now of course this doesn't explain all the poor aspects of 100% gear dependability in games, but for all the Wow players out there you know Warriors are one of the hardest classes to beat for a hunter in a one on one scenario. Charge -hamstring execute its over pretty much. however I have crushed under geared warriors of late because I do tons of damage and they dont have the resilence to avoid my massive crits.
I personally am a fan of rock paper sciccors seeing as how its more realistic to have natural strenths and weaknesses vs casters/mele/tanks etc.
Wow is jsut one example if you belong to a really good raiding guild and have the top gear, you dominate other classes or same classes on sheer gear power and abilities vs any skill.
I have fallen victim to many super geared rouges, warriors, warlocks without even a chance, and then later punished undergeared same classes so bad i felt almost like I was cheating.
Gear imo should never be the "All" factor but at least the attempt here from what I understand is to give players some sense of achievment obtaining gear, rvr, pve, public quests, exploring etc but at the same time making what tactics and skills you choose decide how well you do against certain classes.
I can live with 40% believe me its alot better than the craziness going on in Wow pvp.
70 hunter Stormwave
70 Druid Norrandamus
That's why WAR's gear isn't as important.
With that same statement WoW's gear isn't important so the statement is quite meaningless in that sense -_-
In that sense, yes, and that's a personal blunder by being ambiguous. My apologies.
When I played WoW, I PvP'd (BG's) frequently as an under geared holy priest, and I did fine. When I was with others. One on one (classic PvP, still BG's), I was screwed. I quit WoW at 57 because I did not have the time an energy to exert myself to its endgame.
Now, WAR is RvR, and ultimately team based (every realm is essentially one huge team anyway). Therefore, better gear isn't going to be the ultimate breaker on the battlefield, so why implement it?
WAR just shortens the gap between the "hardcore" and the "casual" (though neither of these titles imply skill), compared to WoW's gap.
I'm not here to complete my forum PVP dailies.
Blah blah blah....
I dont care if WAR has raids for people who enjoy pve but all that matters is....
~DelmarWynn> LotD|Niix: How much effect will PvE have on PvP success? Will PvP-oriented guilds be forced to man a successful PvE effort in order to be competitive in PvP?
[WAR]Gersh> Short answer is No. You can choose to play how you want , good rewards will be available in both paths and you'll be able to succeed in PvP without having to PvE. Even more so since we hinted some of the best items come from Cap Cities
Sig by WhiskeyJack1
Can't we just stop speculate and wait untill we're actually playing the game, I'm sure there's going to be a trial then we can decide.
Meanwhile... there's a world outhere...
EDIT: oh and by the way I forgot to mention I've read the whole thread to see if someone would say it. Funny thing is the last post said it all! Thanks Gurkz!! I was about to say the exact same thing.
Cheers!
But you will have "STAT CAPS" which stop you from gaining insane amounts of gear item based advantages.
this is what you are over looking. You can get the +200 sword of doom but the stregnth that it adds will never be allowed to go over your total str cap from all items. And of course, all end game items will have the same Damage, but will seperate damage types and attack speeds.
it may sound insane to belive those of you who come from Warcraft... but it is just more of the same for those tat came from DAoC because thats how it was there, and it worked. think of warhammer as an artifact-less DAoC
I hope it's like WOW where it's you PVP for PVP geard and you PVE for PVE gear.
Just as Kraiden stated, there will be stat caps. Which generally rules out heavy gear dependency.
For the players that started with WoW, these are not baseball caps to put on your stats.
Stat caps keep players around a similar level of efficiency, preventing one person from becoming entirely overpowered through gear. So as a player you can focus on finding gear that improves each of your stats that apply to your class. Rather than focusing on one stat with all of your gear, in an attempt to have massive amounts of strength or agility or intelligence to become godly and fantastic.
For example, a Tank with a secondary ability as a chanter. Very much like a Paladin in DAoC.
Your main stats as a tank will obviously be Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, Quickness.
As a secondary caster you will also have another important stat such as Intelligence or Peity.
These important stats will have a cap for increase.
The ones not listed will be unimportant to your performance and not offer increase or cap.
I've actually read that they won't have hardcaps like Daoc had but softcaps, meaning i think it's more like diminishing returns but *not* a direct stop.
Not sure what I was supposed to pay attention to...
40% is not 0% or anywhere near 0% and it is much closer to 70% then 0% so...huh?
Call me crazy but I just want to play a game where all my gear is equal to those around me. Or at least give me the option of easily getting that armor like with all the classic MMORPGs we all have fond memories of. You'd buy it off some player who was really good at crafting armor. If a player kicked mine olde arse in ye olden games, then I'd bow to him in respect - he beat ME.
It is a needless timesink and I for one am getting sick of seeing this crap in game development. Stop wasting our time, if you have a great end game (WARs big selling point) then give it to us fast and let us play as the game as it is supposed to be played. Leveling, kill X for Y quests, and gear loot tables = poor game design pure and simple. Give us something better!
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
*laugh* You're cute. I wish I could have met you in DAoC and saw you "compete" with people like Tedious Ten or the like. You just shattered all believability you ever might have had in my eyes. Cheers. ^^
Player crafted gear can compete with raid gear. Without a doubt.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
You obviously don't understand what WAR is or how mmorpgs work.
The point of the game is RvR. If you played DAoC or SWG you might know about this concept. It is the coming together of people for the entire purpose of slaughtering your enemy. Not for loot per say but for the shear enjoyment of frustrating or crushing your enemy. If you PvP you will get your PvP gear. Gear won't make such a huge difference that a rank 40 player in +3 gear will smash a rank 40 in +1 gear. Career choices and tactic load outs will be a large part of whether you are succesful or not.
Gear itself is a form of progression as much as levels are. As I level up I want to get armor that makes it look like you shouldn't mess with me. If I kill a fire dragon then I except to get armor that makes me immune or damn near it to fire. As I slaughter more of my enemies I expect to be rewarded by my realm for my deeds.
It isn't like WoW where you need to spend 4-5 hours a night with 24 other people you don't like to try and get the best gear available. There will be gear that takes more time to achieve but that is what MMO's are all about. The more you play the better your rewards are.
Bottom line- If you PvP you will get competitive PvP gear
If you PvE you will get PvE gear
If you do both you will have access to both PvE and PvP gear sets.
You cannot expect to log in for 3 hours in a week and get the best items in the game. If you want that then maybe you should play an FPS.
Lol? What you're describing is exactly WoW these days.
You PvP you get pvP gear, you PvE you get PvE gear.
You seem to be quite outdated
I like how those PvE extremists think they know how every MMORPG should be. Always a good laugh to read them
Now it's okay to have your opinions guys, but don't make it like it's the inevitable truth. Just because many MMOs work like that at the moment doesn't need it has to be that way.
There are actually people who like to have fun instead of grind/farm items in a boring timesink activity.. Trust me, it's true! They are actually called "real PvP players".
And games without timesinks can be successful too because of these people. (yeah I know it's unbelievable such strange people exist!)
Skill/equipment progression is not required for MMORPGs, not even an RPGs. Now you can claim the opposite if you want, but you have to know there'll be people laughing at you.
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Waiting for: GW2
*thumbs up*: GW, Eve(, WoW)
*thumbs down*: MO, GA, FE
*laugh* You're cute. I wish I could have met you in DAoC and saw you "compete" with people like Tedious Ten or the like. You just shattered all believability you ever might have had in my eyes. Cheers. ^^
Player crafted gear can compete with raid gear. Without a doubt.
This is one reason I hate Woobs ( WoW Noobs ) because they automatically think that because WoW did it, every other game must be doing it. DAoC came out before WoW and is by far a much better designed game in my opinion and if WAR is even 1/2 as good as DAoC, it'll be better than WoW.
Stop worrying about item dependancy and be constructive and find alternate avenues of aquiring said items, cause items are here to stay and theres nothing we can do about it.
Hmm if you are refering to me ... why? Myabe your not , but still 1/2 a set in daoc, on classic or toa servers, can and should be player made (thats how strong it is).
ps i played daoc the 2nd day it was out (couldn't get in the first day, didn't get my game yet). played duris a diku based mud for ever, 10siix, m59, list goes on.
Lol? What you're describing is exactly WoW these days.
You PvP you get pvP gear, you PvE you get PvE gear.
You seem to be quite outdated
Well i eblieve that person miss-informed. There will be equip from pve, tomb, and pvp, however from what the have said all of it is pve equip and all of it is pve equip.
The multi-use equip system is old and frankly a error or band-aid that wow used to fix a giant problem of equipment scaling. Other retarted game makers have followed in doing this becuase ... wow did it so it must be good. One such game is AoC. However, this is not on the tables for WAR.
So please stop saying it will be. The facts are you can get the equipment from doing pvp or pve or unlocks. See when you do pvp you get this thing called (i forget its name like infemy or reputation basicly) and with it you can complete quests and get loots. Well doing pve also gives you this so you can get the very same rewards ... Easy and logical system. Its basicly money for equip, and quests. At least thats what it looks like.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Lol? What you're describing is exactly WoW these days.
You PvP you get pvP gear, you PvE you get PvE gear.
You seem to be quite outdated
I guess I have to go into specifics into why WoW's system is awful.First off PvE. You don't just get epics for PvEing. You have to wait in line behind potentially 24 other people to get the loot you want. Second- It has to actually drop. Third you actually have to kill the boss. Now I don't particularly mind having to kill bosses a few times to get loot, hey thats the luck of the draw. What I don't like is having to continually depend on Retard A in my group to have a lag spike and wipe the raid. Designing encounters that need a low ping, no lag, and fast reaction time is good....for a single player console game. MMO's require leeway and thus those bosses that require everyone to do their job perfectly with no lag, etc become the Stonewall bosses. I don't mind depending on 5 other people I know to kill a boss. I do mind depending on 24 others. You don't get rewarded on your individual contribution. They have taken steps with the new badge loot and token systems but it is still a far cry from what it should be.
PvP- While the current vindicators bracers, belt, neck, ring, S1, etc are indeed "If you PvP you get PvP gear". However if you go look at the arena system where the best gear is had. The problem with this system is that the classes are not balanced for arena. Your skill and gear can be drastically out performed by the other classes the other team has. This is why Warrior/druid teams destroy lives and Warlock/druid as well. It is rediculously easy to get 1850/2000 with these makeups even while under geared. Then tack on the teams that can sell rating/point and the whole system is trivialized. So it becomes not "If you PvP you get PvP gear" but rather "If you are Class X or can pay $X you get gear". At this point they need to just put in 1v1 because it is just as balanced as 2v2 is.
So unless you join a group of Competent players in WoW, LOL, If you PvE you are not going to get the best PvE loot. Unless you are class X or can pay $X it will be substantially harder to get the best PvP loot. In WAR I believe this will change. You will be rewarded for your contribution to both PvP and PvE. Either through the ToK or from their loot distribution system. They will have a true: If you PvP you will get PvP gear and if you PvE you will get PvE gear. Not the abomination of a system that is WoW.
Im referring to what Caroline Koh reported in the other link in the first post. (in green above)
Seriously people will want the best gear naturally, and if they say this is only obtainable this way in broken up instances of a city raid what is the difference from spending the same amount of time in a dungeon raiding for the same stuff. Im not going to take pvp as an answer sorry, there will still be NPC spawns and Caroline Koh suggests maybe '5' instanced parts.
Yes good gear will be readily available but it wont be the best, many people will play to be the best they can be and if only the best items drop from a City Siege well for me if it pans out like its suggested then its NO different from a long drawn out raid. Except there will be more people attending than a raid so what chances will people have to get said best gear? minimal is my fear -> prices high.
When is crafting info expected?
Well what do you expect? to be given the best gear in 5 min from logging on? Try AOC if you want twitch to be more a factor. most mmo's are just big turn based combat systems.
Disappointing, there goes the "casual" side of it. Raiding is for a certain kind of person, a person with the kind of time to devote to a guild to go on scheduled raids. I always work nights so I could never raid, and guess what, I never had the best gear and got pwned to all the people who did in WoW. It's not fun that way. Raiding is a grind, and grinding is not fun. So as long as it's this way, the hardcore player will always dominate the casual player. So what's the fucking point, thats not fun.
Hell i'll take a skill-based grind like in SWG pre-cu (prolly other games too). You grind out professions and destroy with your skills, all you needed was a powerful-enough weapon to go with your level on that skill tree and you were a bad ass. None of this epic loot shit 1/20000 chance to drop grind that get's outdated months later.
@pineapples:
Yes the hardcore gamer has an advantage over the casual gamer. But, ALSO, the hardcore who's willing to farm/grind/whatever has an advantage over the hardcore gamer who just wanna have fun.
Games with über stuff FTL!
I personally won't play MMOs who are made to generate profit (= with stupid timesinks) anymore.
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Waiting for: GW2
*thumbs up*: GW, Eve(, WoW)
*thumbs down*: MO, GA, FE
The saddest thing here isn't that most MMO's are grind based. The saddest part is that players who have no personal skill and can only be better by grinding - want to convince others how grind is unavoidable.
I play Guild Wars still, here and there. It might not be your true MMO but that's beside the point. I think Guild Wars showed that you CAN have a good lasting game without grind. Yes, there are still bits of grind there, but almost none in PvP (unlocking skills is fast now) and in PvE next to none unless for better-looking gear. Now, you can complain that GW is instanced, but what I'm trying to point out is that there ARE things to do besides levelling and grinding for items. For instance, story. Hello? Or for instance, wow incredible as it may sound but - PvP which is based on *player skill* and not items or skills. Yes, if you played 1000 hours of GW you will be better than the one who played 1 hour, but playing 1000 hours wont make u better than someone who played 100 hours if you're clueless.
I know that subscription MMO's have grind because they think that's the only way to keep customers and u know what - it is. It's the easiest cheapest way to keep customers - but not the best. It's like those soap operas. Yeah, they are utter tripe, but you know what? They are dirt cheap to make, they are all the same, and people want them.
Personally, I can't blame game companies for making grind MMO's. It's the mental level of average gamer that is to be blamed. You want grind - fine, here, you have it. Waste 12hrs per day ruining your life and not having fun at all and then maybe after 2 yrs of grinding you have the moment of happynesss "oh yey Im max level max items woohoo", except it lasts for 5min because another game just goes out that's much cooler and the process repeats. And even if it doesn't, the old game is stale already, by the time you have all gear earned by mindnumbing grinding you already are so dull that the joy in the end isn't even noticed. But hey, whatever floats your boat.
I grew up on old C=64, so maybe youngsters don't remember (or those older people who fail at Life), but game used to be played for FUN. Not to give yourself some importance like "look at me, im a loser in real life but at least im cool online because i Grinded". It's still the same with RTS and FPS games. ,
Anyway, point being, it looks like Warhammer is just yet-another-gear MMO. Sure, the difference can be 40%, but 40%, 60% 80%, who cares, if there is difference I'd rather play MMO with a setting I like more (ofc that might be WAR as well, but for me it would rather be Pirates of the Burning Sea) because any chance at PvPing goes down. It is beyond frustrated for a true PvPer to lose a match because of equipment n stuff like that. Even if gear difference was only 1%.
I am not going to rant here further, If you people like Warhammer that's all good, have a nice time. I just wanted to give another perspective. Believe it or not, there are a lot of us (not a majority of course) who like to play grindless games for Content and Fun. But we won't jump on any game that has no grind because we still care about quality.