I'm disappointed with the "40% gear" thing. I strongly prefer things like "talent points" to matter most. If WAR will just copy WoW's gear model, I doubt I'll be playing long.
40% is nowhere near wows gear model, your getting 40% of you stats from gear by level 15 in wow
So, as long as it's not = WoW it's a good thing?
It's still a bad thing isn't it? Or is it just about not being WOW?
Ah yes...40% sounded like WoW to me, but indeed, it isn't. That's a good thing, 'cause gear was definitely too important in WoW for my tastes. So if 40% is less, that's great. I'll be even happier if they announce they're cutting back to 20% though
Usually the most skilled and organized players are the ones that know where and how to get the best gear so are the best equipped players.
While I am a crafter at heart, I don't think making the best gear available to be crafted is a good choice. unless you restrict that crafter via extremely rare or hard to get materials. A large influx of top end gear just eliminates any desire to play for me, everyone wearing the best gear. Especially if buying currency allows someone to get that gear.
I hope the % of stats from gear in WAR stays low like they say it will. 40% still is a pretty good chunk.
If you have 3000 life, 1200 of that would be from gear.
In WOW: UD 70 warrior with no gear has 144 str , 134 stam. (those are the main 2 stats for pvp so others are ignored for this post)
Same 70 war with PvP gear as 479 str, 722 stam (using mine as an example, S1 &S3 with full vindicator's)
From gear +335 str, +588 stam.
69.94% of str is from gear. 81.44% of stam is from gear (this stat is skewed because stam has lower item budget on gear)
In this case, about 70-75% of stats are from gear.
The main problem I could imagine, in WAR, would be the difference between easy to obtain / basic max level gear and very high quality max level gear.
For example, in noob gear you get 10% of your stats from gear, but in "leet" gear you get 40%. That would be a very significant advantage.
It would not be as much of a problem if noob gear was 30% of stats from gear, and max gear was 40%.
The balance of percent of stats from gear between the two sets of gear is the problem, not necissarily the exact percent in general. Although having a low average percentage from gear makes it easier to keep the gap close by limiting the maximum percentage.
edit: just to clarify my stance, I hope WAR is exponentially less gear based than WoW.
Originally posted by nooblicon If you have 3000 life, 1200 of that would be from gear.
Is it confirmed that the 40% will be HP?
The 40% could just as well be other stats and not related to HP at all.
It could be 40% resistance of a certain attack...say fire.
It could be 40% bonus to refresh rates on a defensive spell.
So the fact that its 40% isnt necessarily a bad thing it depends on what it provides.
You're correct in saying that we don't know exactly how it will work.
The 3000 life thing was just an example. I'm not sure how WAR's stat system works.
The main point was that 40% can still be a significant amount, and that can be further exaggerated by larger gaps between gear at max level.
What the percentage provides doesn't matter, the only thing that matters is the percentage of your stats that will be provided by gear.
Your 40% resistance example is not valid to this argument
For simplicities sake, if 1% resist = 1 point in fire resist stat:
if you have 40% fire resist which = 40 fire resist stats. 40*0.40 = 16.
16 fire resist stats / 100 fire resist stats needed for 100% = 16% resist from stats
So 16% out of your 40% resist is coming from gear in that example.
What the actual stats are does not really matter. What matters is the performance increase that gear can provide depending on what percentage of any given stat or percentage of all stats comes from gear.
I'm disappointed with the "40% gear" thing. I strongly prefer things like "talent points" to matter most. If WAR will just copy WoW's gear model, I doubt I'll be playing long.
I think you should just stop following this game at all (bet you can't). If this isn't a good enough reason for you to quit, then you will surely be able to find something else to justify your quiting. I really don't think you will because you can create your little wow comparisions and come here to show everyone how you amazingly figured it all out.
I am going to try WAR and don't care if it is a wow clone or not.
Man this thread is long .. and seems to be looping. Read the first few pages and just seen the same argument being re-hashed over and over.
Raid vs PvP seems to be the crux of the argument.
I seen DAoC quoted a few times .. now I dunno the state of the game *now* .. but DAoC was guilty of many mistakes. First the *introduced* realm ranks .. total freaking fail. Forced the PvE players to RvR in order to compeate in PvE. Of course the RvR players all /laff and filled the boards with *qq more n00bs* posts. Then ToA (Trials) hit and the RvR crowed had to PvE for Artifacts and Master levels .. of course they then bitched like girls and the PvE crowd responded with *What? gotta play an aspect of the game you dont want to? qq more noobs* etc etc.
Mythic's Mistake was not trying to cater for all styles of play .. it was forcing the cross over. Making people play a game-style they did'ent want to. (If your interested I was'ent happy with either RR's or ToA .. because I played Different toons in PvE and RvR)
I see people bitching about the same thing going to happen in WaR. *OMG i will have to raid for best gear* .. well all i gotta say is look at AoC.
From what i've read and looked at AoC covers both the PvP and PvE game sets .. but they are going to great lengths to seperate the game styles. Raid gear will be top of the line for the PvE game .. Boarderlands PvP gear will be top of the line for PvP gear. Although using one gear set for the other gamestyle will be possible .. it wont be good .. since each set has stats / etc designed to aid in that particular game style.
WoW tried to do this with the Res stat on Arena and BG gears. Unfortunatly it was a kinda mixed bag .. some of the arena gear sets for particular classes are more than viable for the PvE game (DPS classes mostly) .. so there was still a cross-over. AoC is apparently taking great steps to avoid this.
That means if you wanna PvP only .. build a PvP gear set .. player Y's Sword of dragon slaying wont matter a toss to you .. since its effects / bonuses are for PvE .. you wont care about raid loot .. conversly wanna PvE only? Go for it .. the PvP armor sets will be far from ideal for raiding so you wont care that player X has his full PvP armor. Wanna do both? (Like me ! on diff toons as well prob !) .. Do both.
You wanna play WaR and bitch about *Having to PvE* or *Having to PvP*... Bitch on. You wanna play a game with options but seperate spheres? Look into AoC and stop the bitching.
<Edit> And no i aint a *fanboi* ... I've been looking for a new game to play and actually had WaR on a shortlist too .. what i've seen tho i'm leaning towards AoC .. if it does not deliver all thats promised .. I'll jump ship pretty quick .. Forcing me to play a gamestyle i dont wanna play to *keep up* in a game style i do wanna play = no $$'s from me.
Vortigon, I thought of a better way to explain my point.
Assuming 40% from gear is the max (no matter how good gear you obtain, you will never pass 40%)
Naked max level character has 100 total stats.
Max level character with the best gear in the game has 167 total stats. ( 100 / 0.60 = 167 )
Those 67 additional stats from gear can be any combination, the only rule is that they can't exceed 67.
So you could have 30 agility, 30 strength, and 7 fire resist from your gear.
Or it could be 10 intellect, 27 frost resist, 10 movespeed, and 20 points of reduced cast time stat. (this assumes all stats have equal weight, 1 of any is equal of 1 of any other.)
It doesn't matter what the stats are used for / what they do; it only matters what their combined effectiveness is.
The problem comes along with gear-centric games like WoW when there's a huge gap between level 70 gear. This problem is exaggerated the larger the total % of stats from gear the devs allow. There has to be a cap on the max percent increase in stats you can obtain from gear if you want to limit the gear dependency. Also you cannot have a large difference between the best gear and average easy- to-get gear. In Wow, there is too large of a gap in gear, and the gap increases as the game progresses (new raids come out with better gear.)
But in the first example above that I wrote, how much total stats will a person with noob gear have? 115 (9% from gear)? 155 (33%)?
With 115 vs 167, it's a 31% difference between max geared and noob geared. (40% - 9%)
The problem still pertains to the amount of time its going to take to get the best gear. That time taken is = to a long drawn out raid = no difference.
We don't even know if we can make similar stuff, just the views of a reported from hands on time experience, saying the there cold be up to 5 instances to play through in a capital siege for me = no difference from raiding for the best gear.
I hope the % of stats from gear in WAR stays low like they say it will. 40% still is a pretty good chunk. If you have 3000 life, 1200 of that would be from gear. In WOW: UD 70 warrior with no gear has 144 str , 134 stam. (those are the main 2 stats for pvp so others are ignored for this post) Same 70 war with PvP gear as 479 str, 722 stam (using mine as an example, S1 &S3 with full vindicator's) From gear +335 str, +588 stam. 69.94% of str is from gear. 81.44% of stam is from gear (this stat is skewed because stam has lower item budget on gear) In this case, about 70-75% of stats are from gear. The main problem I could imagine, in WAR, would be the difference between easy to obtain / basic max level gear and very high quality max level gear. For example, in noob gear you get 10% of your stats from gear, but in "leet" gear you get 40%. That would be a very significant advantage. It would not be as much of a problem if noob gear was 30% of stats from gear, and max gear was 40%. The balance of percent of stats from gear between the two sets of gear is the problem, not necissarily the exact percent in general. Although having a low average percentage from gear makes it easier to keep the gap close by limiting the maximum percentage.
edit: just to clarify my stance, I hope WAR is exponentially less gear based than WoW.
from what i understood the 40% is the total amount of stats endgame you will get over your base, so in your example with str and stam if you had 100 base str at 40 you would only be able have 140 str if all of your gear was str gear, the wow example you gave your actually receiving a 200% increase to your str and around 350% increase to your stamina from gear, if anyone can confirm how it actually works please clarify this, i would much prefer the first, because if it is that 40% of your stats come from gear at 40 that means gear is as significant as it is in wow, which is a big letdown for me
I hate to break this news to all of you, but ever since MMORPGS have exsisted, they have been about better gear and raiding.
This includes Ultima Online, a game hailed for it's freedom. Ultima Online was just as raid oriented as World of Warcraft, Everquest, and ANY OTHER MMO you want to name, the ONLY difference were the players that played the game enjoyed doing other things besides raiding, like setting up vendors and making a store, or roleplaying, which most gamers today don't do.
The state of video games today is not 100% fault to the companies, but probably 30% company due to lack of interesting things in the game, and 70% the player base, because they don't know how to play a game and have fun without the game telling them raiding is the only thing you can do in this game.
Games are what you make of them, and if your goal is to pvp, well fuck yeah you are going to need the best armor, tough shit.. you want a fair fight go play call of duty, you can't expect to fight a full armored person if you are going to run up to him in fucking cloth and leather, this is not an fps where everyone is equal. So don't expect to be on equal footing wearing your store bought vendor junk when the guy you are fighting is part of a raid guild. You have every opportunity to join one.
I hate to break this news to all of you, but ever since MMORPGS have exsisted, they have been about better gear and raiding. This includes Ultima Online, a game hailed for it's freedom. Ultima Online was just as raid oriented as World of Warcraft, Everquest, and ANY OTHER MMO you want to name, the ONLY difference were the players that played the game enjoyed doing other things besides raiding, like setting up vendors and making a store, or roleplaying, which most gamers today don't do.
Negative!!! Ultima Online died when it became gear based!!! Insurance killed the game! Artifacts killed the game! It went from a game where gear meant nothing and skill meant EVERYTHING to a game where you had to spend a lot of time trying to farm gear to be able to compete. Hat of the Magi, Ornament of the Mage.. anyone??
I hate to break this news to all of you, but ever since MMORPGS have exsisted, they have been about better gear and raiding. This includes Ultima Online, a game hailed for it's freedom. Ultima Online was just as raid oriented as World of Warcraft, Everquest, and ANY OTHER MMO you want to name, the ONLY difference were the players that played the game enjoyed doing other things besides raiding, like setting up vendors and making a store, or roleplaying, which most gamers today don't do.
Negative!!! Ultima Online died when it became gear based!!! Insurance killed the game! Artifacts killed the game! It went from a game where gear meant nothing and skill meant EVERYTHING to a game where you had to spend a lot of time trying to farm gear to be able to compete. Hat of the Magi, Ornament of the Mage.. anyone??
I agree completely. I played UO for years and loved it, but I quit barely a month after they launched the Age of Shadows expansion and made the game gear-based. Before then, gear was of minimal importance. Melee characters mainly used cheap crafted armor/weapons and casters often used nothing. It provided a level playing field for individual players' skill and character design strategies to shine. In these modern item-based games, he who grinds the most wins. Whereas I used to be able to grab a few spellcasting reagents and go looking for a fight, after AoS I had to waste most of my time farming for PvP gear. I still get nostalgic about those golden days of UO PvP, but alas...
Guild Wars isn't as extreme as UO was in terms of limiting the importance of items, but they made the wise choice of making rare gear and common gear equal in stats, the only difference being the "coolness" factor. Thus, casual players and powergamers are able to compete on equal terms, but the grinders still have something to show for their efforts. I hope WAR will take a similar route with gear; I can understand providing a minor to moderate stat bonus for rarer gear, but I'd hate for items to be a major factor. Item grinding is suitable for PvE gameplay, but it really ruins meaningful PvP.
I'm planning to play WAR regardless, but whether I keep playing it for years rather than months all depends on the value of its PvP.
I'm disappointed with the "40% gear" thing. I strongly prefer things like "talent points" to matter most. If WAR will just copy WoW's gear model, I doubt I'll be playing long.
I think you should just stop following this game at all (bet you can't). If this isn't a good enough reason for you to quit, then you will surely be able to find something else to justify your quiting. I really don't think you will because you can create your little wow comparisions and come here to show everyone how you amazingly figured it all out.
I am going to try WAR and don't care if it is a wow clone or not.
Nice try, but I'm afraid you have me pigeon-holed entirely wrong. I'm not the type of 'whiner' you think I am. There's a lot of good stuff in WoW that should be cloned, but not the role gear plays. IMHO, 'cause it's all a matter of taste, of course.
But, like I said earlier after reading some more posts, 40% doesn't really sound that bad, considering WoW is closer to 70%. Then again, I doubt WoW originally aimed at the 70% either....gear level has a way of inflating over time.
As for PvP vs. Raiding for gear: I think this is something WoW is doing pretty decent as well, at the moment. You can PvP for your PvP gear, PvE for your PvE gear...there's a bit of overlap, but hardly game breaking. Mind, I still think there's too much gear grind at max level in WoW, but I don't feel forced to PvE for PvP gear, for example.
Originally posted by CaedesAstrum from what i understood the 40% is the total amount of stats endgame you will get over your base, so in your example with str and stam if you had 100 base str at 40 you would only be able have 140 str if all of your gear was str gear, the wow example you gave your actually receiving a 200% increase to your str and around 350% increase to your stamina from gear, if anyone can confirm how it actually works please clarify this, i would much prefer the first, because if it is that 40% of your stats come from gear at 40 that means gear is as significant as it is in wow, which is a big letdown for me
Exactly. I hope the 40% is the way you interpreted it. As you said, that would make WAR much less gear dependent than Wow. With the 40% of total stats from gear, you're almost doubling your base stats. That would be much more geared based than I would prefer. In WoW you're tripling or quadrupling (or more) your base stats that are crucial to your class. Like you said, in the Wow example strength was increased by over 200%, and stamina was increased by over 400%.
<@[WAR]Gersh>; in WAR gear will matter <@[WAR]Gersh>; Weapon DPS adds to Melee Character attacks, and a solid 40% or so of a player's stats is from Gear <@[WAR]Gersh>; that being said we've designed the loot system and the stat system to allow for a nice broad competitive range <@[WAR]Gersh>; So two players of similar level and similar skill can always compete regardless of gear.. Of course the better geared player will have an advantage"
We can only hope that you're right in that it's 40% increase.
I see a lot of people referring to "PvP gear" and "PvE gear" It would really mess with your heads if it turns out to be just "gear" wouldn't it?
Haha oh yes I never understood in the first place why I would have to carry around many different types of armor gears!
That's just stupid as hell! I really hope we won't see this in WAR.
On one side it's good because it gives you more items and armor pieces to gather a total, but on the downside who the hell wants to shange gear all the time for different purposes?
I hope the skill-swap system in WAR will stand for that!!!
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
Just because WAR will primarily focus on RVR PVP, doesn't mean it won't be gear depended. What would be the point in doing any PVE raids, If gear isn't that essential to one's survival??? Those of you who cry about how gear shouldn't be vital to your survival, you need to check out AoC or some other free crappy MMO like Roma victor lol..
If you want to be the best possible player you can be, your going to need to do the long guild raids to acquire the necessary gear to even have a chance in pvp.
This is how it is in ALL the most popular and recent MMO's out there such as WoW, EQ2, DAOC, Vanguard, etc.. It won't be any different with WAR.
Rallithon Oakthornn (Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
No one ever said it isnt, it s just not as much. It s said to be around %30 gear/%70 skill etc and thats fine with me. Most not all but most other games i ve played was well over %50 gear and i hate that. This game is going in the right direction as far as gear. I can t see any game out there that isn t gear dependant , except a couple COX for example. I for one liked COX but actually missed the loot and raids for something better. The only thing i don t like is if i don t have that one certain piece or set it made me not in the league of others, but if i can go without a bit to compete in rvr great i ll get it one day. Thats how WAR is thank god.
Just because WAR will primarily focus on RVR PVP, doesn't mean it won't be gear depended. What would be the point in doing any PVE raids, If gear isn't that essential to one's survival??? Those of you who cry about how gear shouldn't be vital to your survival, you need to check out AoC or some other free crappy MMO like Roma victor lol.. If you want to be the best possible player you can be, your going to need to do the long guild raids to acquire the necessary gear to even have a chance in pvp. This is how it is in ALL the most popular and recent MMO's out there such as WoW, EQ2, DAOC, Vanguard, etc.. It won't be any different with WAR.
Hmm... I can't remember needing to sit through months of months of PvE to get good gear to have a chance to win in PvP in Guild Wars
Gear matters, but not in a matter like EQ/WoW. It does differences but only differences that boosts your personal build. So it's not really just about becoming better it's more like customizing.
And while at it, who said there ain't a possibility that WAR will just offer DIFFERENT ways of getting the best gear?
That's pretty much what they are saying right now.
Either go all in PvP or all in PvE -OR- a mix of both.
Gear is possible to receive in both and I don't see why you'd be forced to participate in any section unless you want to.
There really should not be any need for it.
PvE is there to satisfy those who needs/likes it.
While the main focus is on PvP.
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
Just because WAR will primarily focus on RVR PVP, doesn't mean it won't be gear depended. What would be the point in doing any PVE raids, If gear isn't that essential to one's survival??? Those of you who cry about how gear shouldn't be vital to your survival, you need to check out AoC or some other free crappy MMO like Roma victor lol.. If you want to be the best possible player you can be, your going to need to do the long guild raids to acquire the necessary gear to even have a chance in pvp. This is how it is in ALL the most popular and recent MMO's out there such as WoW, EQ2, DAOC, Vanguard, etc.. It won't be any different with WAR.
Just because most games do it doesn't make it a good mechanic. Many people would argue that it isn't, and that it leads to a grind and further imbalance of gear levels, to a point where skill cannot overcome gear, between max level players.
The rewards of RVR or PVE need to be useful, but not give an insurmountable advantage.
WAR needs to differentiate itself from WoW to be competitive. The focus on RVR mechanics from the start and not having to depend on gear as much to be competitive in said RVR, along with many other changes to mechanics, can accomplish that feat.
edit: oakthorn, please explain why you think gear should be vital, or first in importance, to effectiveness in RVR in a game that focuses on RVR? ("because other games do" it is not a valid reason)
Just because WAR will primarily focus on RVR PVP, doesn't mean it won't be gear depended. What would be the point in doing any PVE raids, If gear isn't that essential to one's survival??? Those of you who cry about how gear shouldn't be vital to your survival, you need to check out AoC or some other free crappy MMO like Roma victor lol.. If you want to be the best possible player you can be, your going to need to do the long guild raids to acquire the necessary gear to even have a chance in pvp. This is how it is in ALL the most popular and recent MMO's out there such as WoW, EQ2, DAOC, Vanguard, etc.. It won't be any different with WAR.
Hmm... I can't remember needing to sit through months of months of PvE to get good gear to have a chance to win in PvP in Guild Wars
Gear matters, but not in a matter like EQ/WoW. It does differences but only differences that boosts your personal build. So it's not really just about becoming better it's more like customizing.
And while at it, who said there ain't a possibility that WAR will just offer DIFFERENT ways of getting the best gear?
That's pretty much what they are saying right now.
Either go all in PvP or all in PvE -OR- a mix of both.
Gear is possible to receive in both and I don't see why you'd be forced to participate in any section unless you want to.
There really should not be any need for it.
PvE is there to satisfy those who needs/likes it.
While the main focus is on PvP.
Whats sad is if your good at wow then you don't need to.
Whats super sad is you never needed to with daoc.
Whats sad is you think GW is somehow different.
Whats REALYY super sad , retard companies are starting BS like pve and pvp sets ... There should be no such thing. The only reason why Wow has this is becuase they can't balance their game, and this was a bandage.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Whats sad is if your good at wow then you don't need to.
Whats super sad is you never needed to with daoc. Whats sad is you think GW is somehow different.
Whats REALYY super sad , retard companies are starting BS like pve and pvp sets ... There should be no such thing. The only reason why Wow has this is becuase they can't balance their game, and this was a bandage.
But GW is different from ... I ain't gonna say WoW because it's the most games, that gear makes you BETTER, simply put.
In GW gear is easily accessed and there is but minimal differences to my current gear and the "Top gear". In MOST GAMES gear mostly just mean "you got better at everything!" and then theres EVEN more gear that tells you the same thing over and over and over.
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
40% gear make up is still a large chunk. Still have issues with the proposed amount of instanced scenarios to do to get the best drops = raid times.
Problem rumours persist of lack of content due to short development time, so if we are playing in a small area, i want to be wearing the best gear possible.
40% gear make up is still a large chunk. Still have issues with the proposed amount of instanced scenarios to do to get the best drops = raid times. Problem rumours persist of lack of content due to short development time, so if we are playing in a small area, i want to be wearing the best gear possible.
What instance scenarios to get best drops? I wish I could figure out who's spreading that vicious lie the only thing instanced in PvE are the End Bosses themselves. You don't have to do the PvP scenarios at all thats why they refocused more on the Open World & Added Keeps. The City Siege is not instanced though they talked about doing like EQ2 and when an area gets to full to instance it off to reduce lag.
I think you need to stop listening to people posting bs claiming to be in beta or actually breaking NDA.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
Comments
40% is nowhere near wows gear model, your getting 40% of you stats from gear by level 15 in wow
So, as long as it's not = WoW it's a good thing?
It's still a bad thing isn't it? Or is it just about not being WOW?
Ah yes...40% sounded like WoW to me, but indeed, it isn't. That's a good thing, 'cause gear was definitely too important in WoW for my tastes. So if 40% is less, that's great. I'll be even happier if they announce they're cutting back to 20% though
Usually the most skilled and organized players are the ones that know where and how to get the best gear so are the best equipped players.
While I am a crafter at heart, I don't think making the best gear available to be crafted is a good choice. unless you restrict that crafter via extremely rare or hard to get materials. A large influx of top end gear just eliminates any desire to play for me, everyone wearing the best gear. Especially if buying currency allows someone to get that gear.
I hope the % of stats from gear in WAR stays low like they say it will. 40% still is a pretty good chunk.
If you have 3000 life, 1200 of that would be from gear.
In WOW: UD 70 warrior with no gear has 144 str , 134 stam. (those are the main 2 stats for pvp so others are ignored for this post)
Same 70 war with PvP gear as 479 str, 722 stam (using mine as an example, S1 &S3 with full vindicator's)
From gear +335 str, +588 stam.
69.94% of str is from gear. 81.44% of stam is from gear (this stat is skewed because stam has lower item budget on gear)
In this case, about 70-75% of stats are from gear.
The main problem I could imagine, in WAR, would be the difference between easy to obtain / basic max level gear and very high quality max level gear.
For example, in noob gear you get 10% of your stats from gear, but in "leet" gear you get 40%. That would be a very significant advantage.
It would not be as much of a problem if noob gear was 30% of stats from gear, and max gear was 40%.
The balance of percent of stats from gear between the two sets of gear is the problem, not necissarily the exact percent in general. Although having a low average percentage from gear makes it easier to keep the gap close by limiting the maximum percentage.
edit: just to clarify my stance, I hope WAR is exponentially less gear based than WoW.
Is it confirmed that the 40% will be HP?
The 40% could just as well be other stats and not related to HP at all.
It could be 40% resistance of a certain attack...say fire.
It could be 40% bonus to refresh rates on a defensive spell.
So the fact that its 40% isnt necessarily a bad thing it depends on what it provides.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Is it confirmed that the 40% will be HP?
The 40% could just as well be other stats and not related to HP at all.
It could be 40% resistance of a certain attack...say fire.
It could be 40% bonus to refresh rates on a defensive spell.
So the fact that its 40% isnt necessarily a bad thing it depends on what it provides.
You're correct in saying that we don't know exactly how it will work.
The 3000 life thing was just an example. I'm not sure how WAR's stat system works.
The main point was that 40% can still be a significant amount, and that can be further exaggerated by larger gaps between gear at max level.
What the percentage provides doesn't matter, the only thing that matters is the percentage of your stats that will be provided by gear.
Your 40% resistance example is not valid to this argument
For simplicities sake, if 1% resist = 1 point in fire resist stat:
if you have 40% fire resist which = 40 fire resist stats. 40*0.40 = 16.
16 fire resist stats / 100 fire resist stats needed for 100% = 16% resist from stats
So 16% out of your 40% resist is coming from gear in that example.
What the actual stats are does not really matter. What matters is the performance increase that gear can provide depending on what percentage of any given stat or percentage of all stats comes from gear.
I am going to try WAR and don't care if it is a wow clone or not.
Man this thread is long .. and seems to be looping. Read the first few pages and just seen the same argument being re-hashed over and over.
Raid vs PvP seems to be the crux of the argument.
I seen DAoC quoted a few times .. now I dunno the state of the game *now* .. but DAoC was guilty of many mistakes. First the *introduced* realm ranks .. total freaking fail. Forced the PvE players to RvR in order to compeate in PvE. Of course the RvR players all /laff and filled the boards with *qq more n00bs* posts. Then ToA (Trials) hit and the RvR crowed had to PvE for Artifacts and Master levels .. of course they then bitched like girls and the PvE crowd responded with *What? gotta play an aspect of the game you dont want to? qq more noobs* etc etc.
Mythic's Mistake was not trying to cater for all styles of play .. it was forcing the cross over. Making people play a game-style they did'ent want to. (If your interested I was'ent happy with either RR's or ToA .. because I played Different toons in PvE and RvR)
I see people bitching about the same thing going to happen in WaR. *OMG i will have to raid for best gear* .. well all i gotta say is look at AoC.
From what i've read and looked at AoC covers both the PvP and PvE game sets .. but they are going to great lengths to seperate the game styles. Raid gear will be top of the line for the PvE game .. Boarderlands PvP gear will be top of the line for PvP gear. Although using one gear set for the other gamestyle will be possible .. it wont be good .. since each set has stats / etc designed to aid in that particular game style.
WoW tried to do this with the Res stat on Arena and BG gears. Unfortunatly it was a kinda mixed bag .. some of the arena gear sets for particular classes are more than viable for the PvE game (DPS classes mostly) .. so there was still a cross-over. AoC is apparently taking great steps to avoid this.
That means if you wanna PvP only .. build a PvP gear set .. player Y's Sword of dragon slaying wont matter a toss to you .. since its effects / bonuses are for PvE .. you wont care about raid loot .. conversly wanna PvE only? Go for it .. the PvP armor sets will be far from ideal for raiding so you wont care that player X has his full PvP armor. Wanna do both? (Like me ! on diff toons as well prob !) .. Do both.
You wanna play WaR and bitch about *Having to PvE* or *Having to PvP*... Bitch on. You wanna play a game with options but seperate spheres? Look into AoC and stop the bitching.
<Edit> And no i aint a *fanboi* ... I've been looking for a new game to play and actually had WaR on a shortlist too .. what i've seen tho i'm leaning towards AoC .. if it does not deliver all thats promised .. I'll jump ship pretty quick .. Forcing me to play a gamestyle i dont wanna play to *keep up* in a game style i do wanna play = no $$'s from me.
Vortigon, I thought of a better way to explain my point.
Assuming 40% from gear is the max (no matter how good gear you obtain, you will never pass 40%)
Naked max level character has 100 total stats.
Max level character with the best gear in the game has 167 total stats. ( 100 / 0.60 = 167 )
Those 67 additional stats from gear can be any combination, the only rule is that they can't exceed 67.
So you could have 30 agility, 30 strength, and 7 fire resist from your gear.
Or it could be 10 intellect, 27 frost resist, 10 movespeed, and 20 points of reduced cast time stat. (this assumes all stats have equal weight, 1 of any is equal of 1 of any other.)
It doesn't matter what the stats are used for / what they do; it only matters what their combined effectiveness is.
The problem comes along with gear-centric games like WoW when there's a huge gap between level 70 gear. This problem is exaggerated the larger the total % of stats from gear the devs allow. There has to be a cap on the max percent increase in stats you can obtain from gear if you want to limit the gear dependency. Also you cannot have a large difference between the best gear and average easy- to-get gear. In Wow, there is too large of a gap in gear, and the gap increases as the game progresses (new raids come out with better gear.)
But in the first example above that I wrote, how much total stats will a person with noob gear have? 115 (9% from gear)? 155 (33%)?
With 115 vs 167, it's a 31% difference between max geared and noob geared. (40% - 9%)
With 155 vs 167, it's a 7% difference.
The problem still pertains to the amount of time its going to take to get the best gear. That time taken is = to a long drawn out raid = no difference.
We don't even know if we can make similar stuff, just the views of a reported from hands on time experience, saying the there cold be up to 5 instances to play through in a capital siege for me = no difference from raiding for the best gear.
I hate to break this news to all of you, but ever since MMORPGS have exsisted, they have been about better gear and raiding.
This includes Ultima Online, a game hailed for it's freedom. Ultima Online was just as raid oriented as World of Warcraft, Everquest, and ANY OTHER MMO you want to name, the ONLY difference were the players that played the game enjoyed doing other things besides raiding, like setting up vendors and making a store, or roleplaying, which most gamers today don't do.
The state of video games today is not 100% fault to the companies, but probably 30% company due to lack of interesting things in the game, and 70% the player base, because they don't know how to play a game and have fun without the game telling them raiding is the only thing you can do in this game.
Games are what you make of them, and if your goal is to pvp, well fuck yeah you are going to need the best armor, tough shit.. you want a fair fight go play call of duty, you can't expect to fight a full armored person if you are going to run up to him in fucking cloth and leather, this is not an fps where everyone is equal. So don't expect to be on equal footing wearing your store bought vendor junk when the guy you are fighting is part of a raid guild. You have every opportunity to join one.
Negative!!! Ultima Online died when it became gear based!!! Insurance killed the game! Artifacts killed the game! It went from a game where gear meant nothing and skill meant EVERYTHING to a game where you had to spend a lot of time trying to farm gear to be able to compete. Hat of the Magi, Ornament of the Mage.. anyone??
Negative!!! Ultima Online died when it became gear based!!! Insurance killed the game! Artifacts killed the game! It went from a game where gear meant nothing and skill meant EVERYTHING to a game where you had to spend a lot of time trying to farm gear to be able to compete. Hat of the Magi, Ornament of the Mage.. anyone??
I agree completely. I played UO for years and loved it, but I quit barely a month after they launched the Age of Shadows expansion and made the game gear-based. Before then, gear was of minimal importance. Melee characters mainly used cheap crafted armor/weapons and casters often used nothing. It provided a level playing field for individual players' skill and character design strategies to shine. In these modern item-based games, he who grinds the most wins. Whereas I used to be able to grab a few spellcasting reagents and go looking for a fight, after AoS I had to waste most of my time farming for PvP gear. I still get nostalgic about those golden days of UO PvP, but alas...
Guild Wars isn't as extreme as UO was in terms of limiting the importance of items, but they made the wise choice of making rare gear and common gear equal in stats, the only difference being the "coolness" factor. Thus, casual players and powergamers are able to compete on equal terms, but the grinders still have something to show for their efforts. I hope WAR will take a similar route with gear; I can understand providing a minor to moderate stat bonus for rarer gear, but I'd hate for items to be a major factor. Item grinding is suitable for PvE gameplay, but it really ruins meaningful PvP.
I'm planning to play WAR regardless, but whether I keep playing it for years rather than months all depends on the value of its PvP.
I think you should just stop following this game at all (bet you can't). If this isn't a good enough reason for you to quit, then you will surely be able to find something else to justify your quiting. I really don't think you will because you can create your little wow comparisions and come here to show everyone how you amazingly figured it all out.I am going to try WAR and don't care if it is a wow clone or not.
Nice try, but I'm afraid you have me pigeon-holed entirely wrong. I'm not the type of 'whiner' you think I am. There's a lot of good stuff in WoW that should be cloned, but not the role gear plays. IMHO, 'cause it's all a matter of taste, of course.
But, like I said earlier after reading some more posts, 40% doesn't really sound that bad, considering WoW is closer to 70%. Then again, I doubt WoW originally aimed at the 70% either....gear level has a way of inflating over time.
As for PvP vs. Raiding for gear: I think this is something WoW is doing pretty decent as well, at the moment. You can PvP for your PvP gear, PvE for your PvE gear...there's a bit of overlap, but hardly game breaking. Mind, I still think there's too much gear grind at max level in WoW, but I don't feel forced to PvE for PvP gear, for example.
With the 40% of total stats from gear, you're almost doubling your base stats. That would be much more geared based than I would prefer. In WoW you're tripling or quadrupling (or more) your base stats that are crucial to your class. Like you said, in the Wow example strength was increased by over 200%, and stamina was increased by over 400%. We can only hope that you're right in that it's 40% increase.
I see a lot of people referring to "PvP gear" and "PvE gear"
It would really mess with your heads if it turns out to be just "gear" wouldn't it?
Haha oh yes I never understood in the first place why I would have to carry around many different types of armor gears!That's just stupid as hell! I really hope we won't see this in WAR.
On one side it's good because it gives you more items and armor pieces to gather a total, but on the downside who the hell wants to shange gear all the time for different purposes?
I hope the skill-swap system in WAR will stand for that!!!
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
Just because WAR will primarily focus on RVR PVP, doesn't mean it won't be gear depended. What would be the point in doing any PVE raids, If gear isn't that essential to one's survival??? Those of you who cry about how gear shouldn't be vital to your survival, you need to check out AoC or some other free crappy MMO like Roma victor lol..
If you want to be the best possible player you can be, your going to need to do the long guild raids to acquire the necessary gear to even have a chance in pvp.
This is how it is in ALL the most popular and recent MMO's out there such as WoW, EQ2, DAOC, Vanguard, etc.. It won't be any different with WAR.
Rallithon Oakthornn
(Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
No one ever said it isnt, it s just not as much. It s said to be around %30 gear/%70 skill etc and thats fine with me. Most not all but most other games i ve played was well over %50 gear and i hate that. This game is going in the right direction as far as gear. I can t see any game out there that isn t gear dependant , except a couple COX for example. I for one liked COX but actually missed the loot and raids for something better. The only thing i don t like is if i don t have that one certain piece or set it made me not in the league of others, but if i can go without a bit to compete in rvr great i ll get it one day. Thats how WAR is thank god.
Hmm... I can't remember needing to sit through months of months of PvE to get good gear to have a chance to win in PvP in Guild Wars
Gear matters, but not in a matter like EQ/WoW. It does differences but only differences that boosts your personal build. So it's not really just about becoming better it's more like customizing.
And while at it, who said there ain't a possibility that WAR will just offer DIFFERENT ways of getting the best gear?
That's pretty much what they are saying right now.
Either go all in PvP or all in PvE -OR- a mix of both.
Gear is possible to receive in both and I don't see why you'd be forced to participate in any section unless you want to.
There really should not be any need for it.
PvE is there to satisfy those who needs/likes it.
While the main focus is on PvP.
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
Just because most games do it doesn't make it a good mechanic. Many people would argue that it isn't, and that it leads to a grind and further imbalance of gear levels, to a point where skill cannot overcome gear, between max level players.
The rewards of RVR or PVE need to be useful, but not give an insurmountable advantage.
WAR needs to differentiate itself from WoW to be competitive. The focus on RVR mechanics from the start and not having to depend on gear as much to be competitive in said RVR, along with many other changes to mechanics, can accomplish that feat.
edit: oakthorn, please explain why you think gear should be vital, or first in importance, to effectiveness in RVR in a game that focuses on RVR? ("because other games do" it is not a valid reason)
Hmm... I can't remember needing to sit through months of months of PvE to get good gear to have a chance to win in PvP in Guild Wars
Gear matters, but not in a matter like EQ/WoW. It does differences but only differences that boosts your personal build. So it's not really just about becoming better it's more like customizing.
And while at it, who said there ain't a possibility that WAR will just offer DIFFERENT ways of getting the best gear?
That's pretty much what they are saying right now.
Either go all in PvP or all in PvE -OR- a mix of both.
Gear is possible to receive in both and I don't see why you'd be forced to participate in any section unless you want to.
There really should not be any need for it.
PvE is there to satisfy those who needs/likes it.
While the main focus is on PvP.
Whats sad is if your good at wow then you don't need to.Whats super sad is you never needed to with daoc.
Whats sad is you think GW is somehow different.
Whats REALYY super sad , retard companies are starting BS like pve and pvp sets ... There should be no such thing. The only reason why Wow has this is becuase they can't balance their game, and this was a bandage.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
In GW gear is easily accessed and there is but minimal differences to my current gear and the "Top gear". In MOST GAMES gear mostly just mean "you got better at everything!" and then theres EVEN more gear that tells you the same thing over and over and over.
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
40% gear make up is still a large chunk. Still have issues with the proposed amount of instanced scenarios to do to get the best drops = raid times.
Problem rumours persist of lack of content due to short development time, so if we are playing in a small area, i want to be wearing the best gear possible.
What instance scenarios to get best drops? I wish I could figure out who's spreading that vicious lie the only thing instanced in PvE are the End Bosses themselves. You don't have to do the PvP scenarios at all thats why they refocused more on the Open World & Added Keeps. The City Siege is not instanced though they talked about doing like EQ2 and when an area gets to full to instance it off to reduce lag.
I think you need to stop listening to people posting bs claiming to be in beta or actually breaking NDA.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!