perma death would scare people of PvP. It is not interesting to level up a char for a month+ and loose it in one fight. There should be reward for PvP just like in other skills.
The guys @ cornered rat software, those behind WWiiOnline, are pioneers within PvP MMORPG'sand have solved alot of the common problems with PvP games, and continue to find new ways and progres the genre.
I don't want to make any assumptions here, so let me ask you;
Isn't a "pure PvP" game FPS, only?
Wouldn't a MMORPG, just by the name alone be either PvE or PvE+PvP?
---------------------------------------- My dog barks some. Mentally you picture my dog, but I have not told you the type of dog which I have. Perhaps you even picture Toto, from "The Wizard of Oz." But I warn you, my dog is always with me.
Originally posted by rentantilus Player vs. player combat will ALWAYS be boring, and MMORPGs will ALWAYS get dull after a few months as long as nobody has the balls to implement and play a game with permanent death. Why does the word "permadeath" put a sour taste in your mouth? Because you're thinking of it in terms of the current MMORPGs you're familiar with. You're thinking of games where you'll lose 100 levels earned from months of monotonous grinding and a whole inventory of uber equipment from rare drops because you got instantly-killed by a dragon's bite or run over by a tank. What about a MMORPG with characters that could be incapacitated by a normal amount of damage (enough to kill a character in a regular MMORPG) but it required a coup de grace (intentional slaying of an incapacitated character) to kill them? Where you could "beat" someone, even take their stuff, without having to kill them. Additionally, what if a game had no leveling system? What if you could make a fresh character that, with only a short period (a few days of casual play) of gathering equipment and training skills, could be competetive? What if you could make a character that had great skills and could do a wide variety of things right from creation? In a game that's purely PvP, including permadeath, and a world that's entirely player based (economy, politics, exploration, construction, etc), why do you need levels? What if a player's sense of accomplishment was gathered from how much they had actually achieved, like leading a faction, discovering a new dungeon, or building a better hovercar, not what level they had grinded up to? Folks, the class/level system of RPGs was developed THIRTY YEARS AGO, back before computers, when all of the math involved in these games had to be done by hand. That's why the class/level system was designed to be so simplistic and limited. Today, we have computers capable of MILLIONS of calculations per second; why not use that power to develop a game with a dynamic, more realisitic way of managing characters? Once we abandon the shackles of the class/level system, these MMORPGs can finally get rid of endless mob hunting, repetetive tasks, profession restrictions, and power leveling. Back in the days of Dungeons and Dragons, the 1st level character was supposed to represent a 16-18 year old inexperienced, uneducated kid in a midieval setting. Why not make an MMORPG where you can create a 20-30 year old professional character? I know people want achievement and the feeling that they're accomplishing things, but it can be done without levels, folks. Once the classes and levels are gone, we can make characters that are competent right from creation. Once we can do that, we can ditch the whole carebear respawn system. Once we do that, we can finally accept permadeath. Once we do THAT, each of our character's lives will MEAN something; we'll be excited to undertake new adventures because there's a real risk vs. reward factor, because with permadeath, the risk actually means something. It's hard to get excited about battling an ancient dragon when, at the back of your mind, you're thinking, "Well, even if I die, I'm only going to lose a few hundred exp and maybe my equipment, which I can just buy again with the money I have safe in the bank." What kind of "adventure" is that? People, have you ever wondered why you're ALL boerd with your high level characters? Yeah, even you griefers are slowly getting sick of uberness. Until now, you thought it was because the game you play in lacked content. Because there weren't enough admins running events, because the world wasn't large enough, because things just "aren't like they used to be." THOSE AREN'T THE REASONS. You're bored of these games, and your characters, because it's not exciting anymore. Why isn't it exciting? Because, without risk, rewards are boring. Therefore, these games need risk. Permanent death is the best risk of all, and if implemented correctly, could turn a boring level grind into a fantastic, exciting MMORPG packed with adventure and real player vs. player action.
Ok for the first comment, about having to apply a 'coup de grace'. This will not prevent anyone from ganking people. You have to do this in SWG and 90% of the time you get incapped you will get slain. This is because MOST people who PvP do so for the pleasure of killing people weaker than themselves. If it takes them 1 hit or 100 hits to kill someone they will still kill them and say 'Take that Noob, u suXXor' or something.
The only time a pure PvP game will come out is when people grow up and start respecting other online players. When i am lvl 10 i do not kill lvl 1 mobs, because it is no challenge. Yet on PvP games capped tanks tend to happily run about ganking people lower than them, not necessarily complete Noobs, but still people who cant put up a proper fight.
And as for permadeath in an MMORPG it does not work. There is no point in having a game in which you have to improve your character only to lose all those improvements FOR ANY REASON.
A game which does not require something like a level grind is simply not a proper MMORPG, because roleplaying games have always included the levelling aspect. Creating a game whereby people are more or less even all the way through and there is no need to level is just like creating something like an FPS, but with a possible fantasy twist.
What you are talking about may make for a fun game for people like yourself, but it is a different genre, or at least a sub-genre of rpleplaying games.
<chuckles> kk, I've read the replies and I see that I've only been sorta answered by previous posters...
Allow me a moment ... Wouldn't a mmorpg PvP world treat PCs like mobs? Thus a lvl 40 PC would gain nothing by attacking any other player lvl 30- (ish)... But a lvl 40 PC could gain a small amount of exp for a 38-39 PC alittle more for a lvl 40 PC a decent amount for a lvl 41+ PC and not be able to kill anything (or even scratch) anything.. say 6 lvls above themselves.
wouldn't this be a simplistic version of a working PvP mmorpg? The same ruleset as PvE.
---------------------------------------- My dog barks some. Mentally you picture my dog, but I have not told you the type of dog which I have. Perhaps you even picture Toto, from "The Wizard of Oz." But I warn you, my dog is always with me.
Originally posted by Odenathus <chuckles> kk, I've read the replies and I see that I've only been sorta answered by previous posters... Allow me a moment ... Wouldn't a mmorpg PvP world treat PCs like mobs? Thus a lvl 40 PC would gain nothing by attacking any other player lvl 30- (ish)... But a lvl 40 PC could gain a small amount of exp for a 38-39 PC alittle more for a lvl 40 PC a decent amount for a lvl 41+ PC and not be able to kill anything (or even scratch) anything.. say 6 lvls above themselves. wouldn't this be a simplistic version of a working PvP mmorpg? The same ruleset as PvE.
I have always liked that idea, but until the community grows up A LOT then even this wouldnt really stop people griefing noobs. What i do think however is that people would find it hard to get to the level cap etc, and lots of people who think pvp roxxors will suddenly find they dont like pvp when they have to fight people to level.
I think a cool thing for a mmorpg to have is a gladiator arena. people who want to do pvp go sign up there, raise your skills fighting other players. If you can make a name for yourself there will allways be someone that would want to fight you so you'd never get bored
___________________________ The Golden Rule. Risk vs. Reward
Originally posted by rentantilus Player vs. player combat will ALWAYS be boring, and MMORPGs will ALWAYS get dull after a few months as long as nobody has the balls to implement and play a game with permanent death. Why does the word "permadeath" put a sour taste in your mouth? Because you're thinking of it in terms of the current MMORPGs you're familiar with. You're thinking of games where you'll lose 100 levels earned from months of monotonous grinding and a whole inventory of uber equipment from rare drops because you got instantly-killed by a dragon's bite or run over by a tank. What about a MMORPG with characters that could be incapacitated by a normal amount of damage (enough to kill a character in a regular MMORPG) but it required a coup de grace (intentional slaying of an incapacitated character) to kill them? Where you could "beat" someone, even take their stuff, without having to kill them. Additionally, what if a game had no leveling system? What if you could make a fresh character that, with only a short period (a few days of casual play) of gathering equipment and training skills, could be competetive? What if you could make a character that had great skills and could do a wide variety of things right from creation? In a game that's purely PvP, including permadeath, and a world that's entirely player based (economy, politics, exploration, construction, etc), why do you need levels? What if a player's sense of accomplishment was gathered from how much they had actually achieved, like leading a faction, discovering a new dungeon, or building a better hovercar, not what level they had grinded up to? Folks, the class/level system of RPGs was developed THIRTY YEARS AGO, back before computers, when all of the math involved in these games had to be done by hand. That's why the class/level system was designed to be so simplistic and limited. Today, we have computers capable of MILLIONS of calculations per second; why not use that power to develop a game with a dynamic, more realisitic way of managing characters? Once we abandon the shackles of the class/level system, these MMORPGs can finally get rid of endless mob hunting, repetetive tasks, profession restrictions, and power leveling. Back in the days of Dungeons and Dragons, the 1st level character was supposed to represent a 16-18 year old inexperienced, uneducated kid in a midieval setting. Why not make an MMORPG where you can create a 20-30 year old professional character? I know people want achievement and the feeling that they're accomplishing things, but it can be done without levels, folks. Once the classes and levels are gone, we can make characters that are competent right from creation. Once we can do that, we can ditch the whole carebear respawn system. Once we do that, we can finally accept permadeath. Once we do THAT, each of our character's lives will MEAN something; we'll be excited to undertake new adventures because there's a real risk vs. reward factor, because with permadeath, the risk actually means something. It's hard to get excited about battling an ancient dragon when, at the back of your mind, you're thinking, "Well, even if I die, I'm only going to lose a few hundred exp and maybe my equipment, which I can just buy again with the money I have safe in the bank." What kind of "adventure" is that? People, have you ever wondered why you're ALL boerd with your high level characters? Yeah, even you griefers are slowly getting sick of uberness. Until now, you thought it was because the game you play in lacked content. Because there weren't enough admins running events, because the world wasn't large enough, because things just "aren't like they used to be." THOSE AREN'T THE REASONS. You're bored of these games, and your characters, because it's not exciting anymore. Why isn't it exciting? Because, without risk, rewards are boring. Therefore, these games need risk. Permanent death is the best risk of all, and if implemented correctly, could turn a boring level grind into a fantastic, exciting MMORPG packed with adventure and real player vs. player action.
Ok for the first comment, about having to apply a 'coup de grace'. This will not prevent anyone from ganking people. You have to do this in SWG and 90% of the time you get incapped you will get slain. This is because MOST people who PvP do so for the pleasure of killing people weaker than themselves. If it takes them 1 hit or 100 hits to kill someone they will still kill them and say 'Take that Noob, u suXXor' or something.
The only time a pure PvP game will come out is when people grow up and start respecting other online players. When i am lvl 10 i do not kill lvl 1 mobs, because it is no challenge. Yet on PvP games capped tanks tend to happily run about ganking people lower than them, not necessarily complete Noobs, but still people who cant put up a proper fight.
And as for permadeath in an MMORPG it does not work. There is no point in having a game in which you have to improve your character only to lose all those improvements FOR ANY REASON.
A game which does not require something like a level grind is simply not a proper MMORPG, because roleplaying games have always included the levelling aspect. Creating a game whereby people are more or less even all the way through and there is no need to level is just like creating something like an FPS, but with a possible fantasy twist.
What you are talking about may make for a fun game for people like yourself, but it is a different genre, or at least a sub-genre of rpleplaying games.
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
I would just like to know with the perma deat how will you get more armor and money if your dieing every 10 lvs I dont think that the true PVE PVP game will ever be made due to whining from both sides .
As I walk through the valley of death I will fear no evil BUT evil will have no choice but to FEAR ME!!!
As I walk through the valley of death I will fear no evil BUT evil will have no choice but to FEAR ME!!!
AC2 Darktide pvp rules fully pvp world nowhere save
Its great fun love darktide thats how i want pvp to be ,but a xp reward would be great then ac2 darktide pvp would be perfect and more peeps only drawback on darktide is low populations.
To many carebears around they whine when they be killed and they go back to O.o server
Originally posted by forestdutch AC2 Darktide pvp rules fully pvp world nowhere save Its great fun love darktide thats how i want pvp to be ,but a xp reward would be great then ac2 darktide pvp would be perfect and more peeps only drawback on darktide is low populations. To many carebears around they whine when they be killed and they go back to O.o server
Originally posted by bsherlock And as for permadeath in an MMORPG it does not work. There is no point in having a game in which you have to improve your character only to lose all those improvements FOR ANY REASON. A game which does not require something like a level grind is simply not a proper MMORPG, because roleplaying games have always included the levelling aspect. Creating a game whereby people are more or less even all the way through and there is no need to level is just like creating something like an FPS, but with a possible fantasy twist.
I disagree. I do not believe that "RPG" is synonymous with "leveling." I also don't think "RPG" has any exclusive tie to "fantasy." These are the things we have to change our brainwashing on before MMORPGs will graduate from this awkward class/level bullshit and become true role-playing communities.
What if a game didn't have levels, rather a whole world of skills that could be improved? What if the difference between a 5 minute old newbie and a 1 year old veteran, statistcally, wasn't as broad as the difference between a level 1 character and a level 100 character in all of the MMORPGs we're used to currently? Yes, I know this is farther from the traditional fantasy MMORPG level grind, but isn't that a good thing? At some point, we as a community are going to have to make a choice: Do we want to kill orcs all day to earn our next level, or do we want to explore all of the other options a vast, populated alternate world has to offer? Please, someone open up your eyes and realize that it IS possible to have a MMORPG that doesn't involve elves, swords, classes, levels, and mindless repetition!
If a 1 day newbie and a 1 year vet had hardly any difference then your game would simply stop being a roleplaying game in the traditional sense of the word.
I am not saying your ideas are bad, and they will appeal to some, but you cannot simply take an established genre and take away the CORE element, which is the levelling process. You cannot rip the entire heart out of a genre in such a way.
What you are creating is an action game, or a FPS style game but with skills instead of powerups.
An MMOPRG does not need a fantasy setting, but your arguement for stop killing orcs and kill other players is still exaclty the same, i dont care what i am killing but if you have to kill 100 humans or 100 computer orcs your still doing the same thing. Games need the level grind, and they need levels, but they need to make you gain levels through doing what your character would do if he/she was a real person. This is not simply killing or dancing or whatever the profession is, but it includes everything else they could do in the course of a lifetime.
This would create a game with many different and varied ways to level up and would not be seen as a grind, because it would be fun.
Originally posted by bsherlock If a 1 day newbie and a 1 year vet had hardly any difference then your game would simply stop being a roleplaying game in the traditional sense of the word. I am not saying your ideas are bad, and they will appeal to some, but you cannot simply take an established genre and take away the CORE element, which is the levelling process. You cannot rip the entire heart out of a genre in such a way. An MMOPRG does not need a fantasy setting, but your arguement for stop killing orcs and kill other players is still exaclty the same, i dont care what i am killing but if you have to kill 100 humans or 100 computer orcs your still doing the same thing. Games need the level grind, and they need levels, but they need to make you gain levels through doing what your character would do if he/she was a real person. This is not simply killing or dancing or whatever the profession is, but it includes everything else they could do in the course of a lifetime.
And I disagree completely with you on all of those points. I don't think "role-playing" is inherantly tied to what level you are. Sometimes ripping the core out of a stagnant, motionless thing and replacing it with something better is what gets it going again. Several years ago, someone probably said, "The heart of RPGs is in sitting around with your buddies and rolling dice. You can't put that into a computer game!" Things sure have changed, eh? I don't think games need a level grind at all, either. Why not make a game that focuses on the other possibilities of an online environment, not just the repetition of level grinding?
Don't be afraid though. If an MMORPG comes out that doesn't include a level grind, it's not like EverQuest is going to suddenly crash.
Thats probably not what they said because the heart of roleplaying game back then was still the core principle of advancing your character through levelling.
What they will ahve said is that pen, paper and dice were the most common TOOLS with which to roleplay and that they cant recreate that on a PC. And to date they have been correct, because no MMORPG has lived up to the fun people had on pen and paper games.
And before you say why dont we all play pen and paper games it is because times have changed, people no longer get together like they used to, people have jobs and dont have the time to socialise as they did before. They more or less all have computers and so they play MMORPGs, because it is as close to the old experience as they can get.
Your idea, and once again i am not saying it is a bad idea is to suddenly change the entire direction of roleplaying. You cannot simply do this because there are hundred of thousands of people out there who like the idea of levelling a character. i dont want to spend ages playing a game only for a 1 day old noob have a character more or less exactly the same.
What i and many people want is for some company to actually put the whole of the pen and paper experience into an MMORPG, which is something that they have been unwilling (yes unwilling because i think they are able) to do.
Your idea will have its fans and its own audience i imagine, as it is somewhere in between where MMORPGS should be and where FPS style games are. But to say kill roleplaying and change to your idea is never going to happen, and certainly shouldnt!
Shadowbane is a pure PvP game. SUre, there is a lame PvE element, but you level so fast in that game that the PvE really doesn't matter.
I don't know why all you guys who call yourselves hard core PvP players keep knocking that game. Is it because you guys can't handle a PvP game without carebears to pick on?!?!
Whats needed in a good mmorpg is pvp section that has a level playing field, where noobs and pros can battle is out together
For example: Unreal tournament 2004
This game would make an amazing mmorpg. The game could play like eve online, with all the great new freatures of that game. But make it first person perspective, where you could walk around your ships, space stations, and citys. But also include the full FPS game from Unreal tournament 2004, that all players could compete in on a level playing field. The winner of each game would recieve some prize. Each game server would be located on a different planet, so it would be realistic.
Originally posted by Dominatrix Hello people, first post here Whats needed in a good mmorpg is pvp section that has a level playing field, where noobs and pros can battle is out together For example: Unreal tournament 2004 This game would make an amazing mmorpg. The game could play like eve online, with all the great new freatures of that game. But make it first person perspective, where you could walk around your ships, space stations, and citys. But also include the full FPS game from Unreal tournament 2004, that all players could compete in on a level playing field. The winner of each game would recieve some prize. Each game server would be located on a different planet, so it would be realistic. Must dash, thanks for reading
dont like eve ... and UT too ...i hate UT engine and weapons Quake was the best))) im waiting for doom3 and tabula rasa or citizen zero btw try planetside...is unbalanced and laggy but only MMOfps on teh market (fun for 2 or 3 months) u dont need FPS skills ..bigger Zerg always wins..but kinda fun join NC so u have kinda god mod...no bad weapons and always bigger Zerg=)
The reason pvp games don't work is because people are broken. The second some people get online as an anonymous avatar, with no real life consequences attached, and they turn into total cockwallets. All their frustration with their boss, their dead end job, their poor relationship with their significant other, etc, gets taken out online.
Me, I'm an asshole in real life. Conversely, I'm pretty nice online, barring people screwing with me.
Also, roleplaying has exactly squat to do with levels. Maybe if all you've ever played is Final Fantasy, then I could see someone thinking that. Also, if you have time to play online for 6 hours, then why wouldn't you have time to meet up for a few hours to do a pnp game with a couple friendsl. I've had plenty of pen n paper games die. Sure it's a bummer to lose the character, but it's not the end of the world. Moreso if the game isn't entirely about what gear you have, or being level 75. For example, a game based on the Shadowrun game. If all the weapons are readily available for the most part, and, generally speaking, on an equal level with each other, then losing your gear is less painfull. If the combat system if done right, with a skill based system, it is entirely possible for a fresh of the block newb to defeat, or at the very least defend themselves long enough to escape, vs a veteran player. The only people I could see being against that are the ones who sense of self worth, and accomplishment are directly linked to being able to destroy huge swathes of newbs in a single blow.
The biggest problem with this, be it a pure pvp, mixed pvp/pve, or a pure pve game, it's something new, and unproven. Which means finding funding, and a publisher would be very difficult without selling your soul. If some of the upcoming pure pvp, skill based MMOs like Darkfall, and DnL can prove successfull, preferably long term, then that opens the door for other developers to try something even closer to the 'perfect' pvp game. Right now the onus is on the devs to make a quality title, after that it's up to us as the players to further expand the playerbase for the pvp genre by not being broken for a little while while online.
------- They panic, so... just hold them down I could live like this I'm closing in; hate all around I could be like this Hearing them; them in my head How can they be so sweet... sweet?
Alot of people on here commenting about pvp have no clue what they are talking about...
Pvp makes a game if its done right, and it hasn't been done right yet...
First of all PVE is just a watered down version of pvp - you just never lose because the enemy is designed to be stupid and the person designed wins even though you are because he gets all your money so you can feel good about yourself killing his drone mobs...
The same thing can be done with people which is what this post is about - just supplement the gamble of a pvp match and it will be fun for everyone. Its not true that people wouldn't like it if they didn't have enough material risk. There is always emotional risk in losing a pvp match.
Don't even mention sandwich style combat games on a pvp thread. Pvp games need many, many possible different strategies, and possibly combat based on reactions, hand eye coordination etc to be fun and unpredictable. Just because many people have screwed up pvp doesn't mean it cannot be done.
Furthermore do not be so ignorant as to believe that it is an iherently flawed concept just because past of examples of it did not sit well with you. In reality there is no definite line between one type of game and another. FPS'es, RTS's etc would not be played multiplayer at all if PVP were an inherently flawed concept. The same goes for permadeath. You have to think about stuff more carefully and look for clues everywhere about how stuff works.
Think about it - Unreal tournament - It has permadeath, but the only character advancement is gathering weapons and powerups. You grow, pvp until you die, then start over. Learn from this. Permadeath is doable as long as A) character advancement doesn't determine how much fun someone can have playing the game IE you don't need to max to have a chance to do anything, and/or you level quickly. This game also has dependence on twitch skills to make PVP interesting. Also note that many people can fight at once so even if a particular player knows he is not the best he can still have fun fighting other people, its not a showdown between 1 player and another. For overall enjoyment of the game this is a good thing.
RTS- These games dont depend on twich skills but have many many different possible strategies and this is how PVP is made viable.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
Just because mobs have been programmed to be idiotic so far.... doesn't mean they will be forever. A computer beat the world's chess champion.
Video game AI can and will change, no one deliberately designs them to be stupid.
As for Unreal tournament being a mmorpg.... the closest i can think of is Face of Mankind that's looking to be a true FPS in a mmorpg world... a newbie won't have the weapons and equipment a veteran does, but its not impossible to win.
I know its not an mmorpg, but I was pointing out that there isn't some magical line distinguishing an fps game from an mmorpg game. These are simply terms people use to describe games, they do not define games.
For instance look at Purge Jihad, and Neocron etc. Purge Jihad has levels but you level really fast and they do not gaurantee beating someone of a lower level. Neocron which is fps style, has no permadeath like fps'es do and it has much more difficult leveling. You can't say that just because pvp in most mmorpgs are unsuccessful that means they all will be. Besides the fact that it depends heavily on the design, The games which I just mentioned are counterexamples.
The things which make pvp and permadeath viable in say Unreal Tournament are not exclusive to fpses, they can be used in an mmorpg as well. That is fast character advancement etc.
About the PVE, the point is computer AI is computer AI. There is only three ways they can make it - 1) It always beats you, 2) you always beat it (or always beat it once you figure it out), or 3) Its just like playing other people - unpredictable. #2 is the only condition acceptable to PVE players. If #3 they might as well just go pvp instead. The execption to this is if even when you lose you still get a little bit ahead then current PVE players would be fine with #3 or pvp instead either one.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
Dying in Unreal Tournament is not true permadeath. Yes you lose the weapons, and stuff you were carrying, but it can be regained in a matter of minutes. There is no significant character development.
You can't apply the same rules to a mmorpg. Some of the best moments in mmorpgs involve finding that rare weapon or doing something special/unique... or in PvP case, gaining a reputation. Then bam, permadeath, and you're a level 1/skill-less again? Its not fixable by making leveling and item gaining "cheap" and easy either, that just makes it a shallow game. There is a magical line between pvp in a fps and pvp in a mmorpg.
Also, I don't see where this stereotyping of PvE comes from. The only people who want repetitive mobs easy to beat, are powergamers who only aim to be the best. Casual gamers, who are rising in number, want mobs that are fun and interesting to fight. An AI does not have to mimic PC's either, they can emulate animal behavior or have certain tendencies and other behaviors programmed in.
People have the same responses all the time. Go play an FPS if you want to PVP. But this will not stop the requests for a pure PVP mmorpg.
People like me have played mmorpgs and enjoyed the concept of playing a roleplaying game with many other players online. Many of us have played FPSes and have enjoyed the competitive fast paced action, but we also enjoy character development, the feeling of achievement and the social aspects of mmorpgs.
Most mmorpgs have stuck to a tried and true concept of creating a happy friendly world where everyone has to get on with each other while they battle the randomly spawning enemies who have no identity, so there is no remorse in killing them. A gamer like me can only play such a game for a short while, until the game feels unrealistic, repetitive and boring.
Conflict is what we seek, without conflict nothing that is done has any meaning. What use is that powerful sword if you cannot use it to defend your homeland from a real threat? Whats the use of amassing a huge wealth if you cannot use it to take control of the world?
I do understand there are people who don't want to/ will never have anything to do with PVP. But stating that a pure PVP game will never work because I don't like PVP is a terribly flawed argument. Do you want to try and stop other people from having fun? I don't particularly like Baseball, so do I go into a discussion forum about Baseball and try to convince people that it's a terrible game? Of course not.
You are of course welcome to state that you don't like PVP, as I am stating right now I don't like PVE, and cannot ever again play an mmorpg that is non PVP. But a pure PVP mmorpg will be very successul (if done right). That I can pretty much guarantee.
*Signature*The Pessimist says the cup is half empty. The Optimist says the cup is half full. The Pragmatist says the cup is half full of air. The Engineer says the cup is operating at 50% capacity. The Psychologist says the cup is your mother. The Punk Kid also says the cup is your mother. The Cricket Player says his cup is definately full. Everyone knows that Pamela Andersons cups are full. The Defendant says it was like that when he found it. Me, I just ask the waitress for a refill.
Comments
I say play Shadowbane
∙name: EViLD0G
∙clan: [EXE]
∙playing: EQ, SIMS, AC, AC2, DAoC, FFXI, AW, RS
∙planning: WoW, GW
The guys @ cornered rat software, those behind WWiiOnline, are pioneers within PvP MMORPG'sand have solved alot of the common problems with PvP games, and continue to find new ways and progres the genre.
I don't want to make any assumptions here, so let me ask you;
Isn't a "pure PvP" game FPS, only?
Wouldn't a MMORPG, just by the name alone be either PvE or PvE+PvP?
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My dog barks some. Mentally you picture my dog, but I have not told you the type of dog which I have. Perhaps you even picture Toto, from "The Wizard of Oz." But I warn you, my dog is always with me.
Ok for the first comment, about having to apply a 'coup de grace'. This will not prevent anyone from ganking people. You have to do this in SWG and 90% of the time you get incapped you will get slain. This is because MOST people who PvP do so for the pleasure of killing people weaker than themselves. If it takes them 1 hit or 100 hits to kill someone they will still kill them and say 'Take that Noob, u suXXor' or something.
The only time a pure PvP game will come out is when people grow up and start respecting other online players. When i am lvl 10 i do not kill lvl 1 mobs, because it is no challenge. Yet on PvP games capped tanks tend to happily run about ganking people lower than them, not necessarily complete Noobs, but still people who cant put up a proper fight.
And as for permadeath in an MMORPG it does not work. There is no point in having a game in which you have to improve your character only to lose all those improvements FOR ANY REASON.
A game which does not require something like a level grind is simply not a proper MMORPG, because roleplaying games have always included the levelling aspect. Creating a game whereby people are more or less even all the way through and there is no need to level is just like creating something like an FPS, but with a possible fantasy twist.
What you are talking about may make for a fun game for people like yourself, but it is a different genre, or at least a sub-genre of rpleplaying games.
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
<chuckles>
kk, I've read the replies and I see that I've only been sorta answered by previous posters...
Allow me a moment ...
Wouldn't a mmorpg PvP world treat PCs like mobs?
Thus a lvl 40 PC would gain nothing by attacking any other player lvl 30- (ish)...
But a lvl 40 PC could gain a small amount of exp for a 38-39 PC
alittle more for a lvl 40 PC
a decent amount for a lvl 41+ PC
and not be able to kill anything (or even scratch) anything.. say 6 lvls above themselves.
wouldn't this be a simplistic version of a working PvP mmorpg? The same ruleset as PvE.
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My dog barks some. Mentally you picture my dog, but I have not told you the type of dog which I have. Perhaps you even picture Toto, from "The Wizard of Oz." But I warn you, my dog is always with me.
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
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I need more cow bell!
Slothman's Home Tree
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I need more Cow Bell!
Slothman's Home Tree
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The Golden Rule.
Risk vs. Reward
Ok for the first comment, about having to apply a 'coup de grace'. This will not prevent anyone from ganking people. You have to do this in SWG and 90% of the time you get incapped you will get slain. This is because MOST people who PvP do so for the pleasure of killing people weaker than themselves. If it takes them 1 hit or 100 hits to kill someone they will still kill them and say 'Take that Noob, u suXXor' or something.
The only time a pure PvP game will come out is when people grow up and start respecting other online players. When i am lvl 10 i do not kill lvl 1 mobs, because it is no challenge. Yet on PvP games capped tanks tend to happily run about ganking people lower than them, not necessarily complete Noobs, but still people who cant put up a proper fight.
And as for permadeath in an MMORPG it does not work. There is no point in having a game in which you have to improve your character only to lose all those improvements FOR ANY REASON.
A game which does not require something like a level grind is simply not a proper MMORPG, because roleplaying games have always included the levelling aspect. Creating a game whereby people are more or less even all the way through and there is no need to level is just like creating something like an FPS, but with a possible fantasy twist.
What you are talking about may make for a fun game for people like yourself, but it is a different genre, or at least a sub-genre of rpleplaying games.
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
I would just like to know with the perma deat how will you get more armor and money if your dieing every 10 lvs I dont think that the true PVE PVP game will ever be made due to whining from both sides .
As I walk through the valley of death I will fear no evil BUT evil will have no choice but to FEAR ME!!!
As I walk through the valley of death I will fear no evil BUT evil will have no choice but to FEAR ME!!!
AC2 Darktide pvp rules fully pvp world nowhere save
Its great fun love darktide thats how i want pvp to be ,but a xp reward would be great then ac2 darktide pvp would be perfect and more peeps only drawback on darktide is low populations.
To many carebears around they whine when they be killed and they go back to O.o server
are u jocking?
AC2 with too many carebears
isnt this useless game dead?
I disagree. I do not believe that "RPG" is synonymous with "leveling." I also don't think "RPG" has any exclusive tie to "fantasy." These are the things we have to change our brainwashing on before MMORPGs will graduate from this awkward class/level bullshit and become true role-playing communities.
What if a game didn't have levels, rather a whole world of skills that could be improved? What if the difference between a 5 minute old newbie and a 1 year old veteran, statistcally, wasn't as broad as the difference between a level 1 character and a level 100 character in all of the MMORPGs we're used to currently? Yes, I know this is farther from the traditional fantasy MMORPG level grind, but isn't that a good thing? At some point, we as a community are going to have to make a choice: Do we want to kill orcs all day to earn our next level, or do we want to explore all of the other options a vast, populated alternate world has to offer? Please, someone open up your eyes and realize that it IS possible to have a MMORPG that doesn't involve elves, swords, classes, levels, and mindless repetition!
If a 1 day newbie and a 1 year vet had hardly any difference then your game would simply stop being a roleplaying game in the traditional sense of the word.
I am not saying your ideas are bad, and they will appeal to some, but you cannot simply take an established genre and take away the CORE element, which is the levelling process. You cannot rip the entire heart out of a genre in such a way.
What you are creating is an action game, or a FPS style game but with skills instead of powerups.
An MMOPRG does not need a fantasy setting, but your arguement for stop killing orcs and kill other players is still exaclty the same, i dont care what i am killing but if you have to kill 100 humans or 100 computer orcs your still doing the same thing. Games need the level grind, and they need levels, but they need to make you gain levels through doing what your character would do if he/she was a real person. This is not simply killing or dancing or whatever the profession is, but it includes everything else they could do in the course of a lifetime.
This would create a game with many different and varied ways to level up and would not be seen as a grind, because it would be fun.
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MUAHAHAHAHAHA
And I disagree completely with you on all of those points. I don't think "role-playing" is inherantly tied to what level you are. Sometimes ripping the core out of a stagnant, motionless thing and replacing it with something better is what gets it going again. Several years ago, someone probably said, "The heart of RPGs is in sitting around with your buddies and rolling dice. You can't put that into a computer game!" Things sure have changed, eh? I don't think games need a level grind at all, either. Why not make a game that focuses on the other possibilities of an online environment, not just the repetition of level grinding?
Don't be afraid though. If an MMORPG comes out that doesn't include a level grind, it's not like EverQuest is going to suddenly crash.
Thats probably not what they said because the heart of roleplaying game back then was still the core principle of advancing your character through levelling.
What they will ahve said is that pen, paper and dice were the most common TOOLS with which to roleplay and that they cant recreate that on a PC. And to date they have been correct, because no MMORPG has lived up to the fun people had on pen and paper games.
And before you say why dont we all play pen and paper games it is because times have changed, people no longer get together like they used to, people have jobs and dont have the time to socialise as they did before. They more or less all have computers and so they play MMORPGs, because it is as close to the old experience as they can get.
Your idea, and once again i am not saying it is a bad idea is to suddenly change the entire direction of roleplaying. You cannot simply do this because there are hundred of thousands of people out there who like the idea of levelling a character. i dont want to spend ages playing a game only for a 1 day old noob have a character more or less exactly the same.
What i and many people want is for some company to actually put the whole of the pen and paper experience into an MMORPG, which is something that they have been unwilling (yes unwilling because i think they are able) to do.
Your idea will have its fans and its own audience i imagine, as it is somewhere in between where MMORPGS should be and where FPS style games are. But to say kill roleplaying and change to your idea is never going to happen, and certainly shouldnt!
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
GW Alpha Member
Legion of Exile
Shadowbane is a pure PvP game. SUre, there is a lame PvE element, but you level so fast in that game that the PvE really doesn't matter.
I don't know why all you guys who call yourselves hard core PvP players keep knocking that game. Is it because you guys can't handle a PvP game without carebears to pick on?!?!
Hello people, first post here
Whats needed in a good mmorpg is pvp section that has a level playing field, where noobs and pros can battle is out together
For example: Unreal tournament 2004
This game would make an amazing mmorpg. The game could play like eve online, with all the great new freatures of that game. But make it first person perspective, where you could walk around your ships, space stations, and citys. But also include the full FPS game from Unreal tournament 2004, that all players could compete in on a level playing field. The winner of each game would recieve some prize. Each game server would be located on a different planet, so it would be realistic.
Must dash, thanks for reading
dont like eve ...
and UT too ...i hate UT engine and weapons
Quake was the best))) im waiting for doom3 and tabula rasa or citizen zero
btw try planetside...is unbalanced and laggy but only MMOfps on teh market (fun for 2 or 3 months)
u dont need FPS skills ..bigger Zerg always wins..but kinda fun
join NC so u have kinda god mod...no bad weapons and always bigger Zerg=)
The reason pvp games don't work is because people are broken. The second some people get online as an anonymous avatar, with no real life consequences attached, and they turn into total cockwallets. All their frustration with their boss, their dead end job, their poor relationship with their significant other, etc, gets taken out online.
Me, I'm an asshole in real life. Conversely, I'm pretty nice online, barring people screwing with me.
Also, roleplaying has exactly squat to do with levels. Maybe if all you've ever played is Final Fantasy, then I could see someone thinking that. Also, if you have time to play online for 6 hours, then why wouldn't you have time to meet up for a few hours to do a pnp game with a couple friendsl. I've had plenty of pen n paper games die. Sure it's a bummer to lose the character, but it's not the end of the world. Moreso if the game isn't entirely about what gear you have, or being level 75. For example, a game based on the Shadowrun game. If all the weapons are readily available for the most part, and, generally speaking, on an equal level with each other, then losing your gear is less painfull. If the combat system if done right, with a skill based system, it is entirely possible for a fresh of the block newb to defeat, or at the very least defend themselves long enough to escape, vs a veteran player. The only people I could see being against that are the ones who sense of self worth, and accomplishment are directly linked to being able to destroy huge swathes of newbs in a single blow.
The biggest problem with this, be it a pure pvp, mixed pvp/pve, or a pure pve game, it's something new, and unproven. Which means finding funding, and a publisher would be very difficult without selling your soul. If some of the upcoming pure pvp, skill based MMOs like Darkfall, and DnL can prove successfull, preferably long term, then that opens the door for other developers to try something even closer to the 'perfect' pvp game. Right now the onus is on the devs to make a quality title, after that it's up to us as the players to further expand the playerbase for the pvp genre by not being broken for a little while while online.
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They panic, so... just hold them down
I could live like this
I'm closing in; hate all around
I could be like this
Hearing them; them in my head
How can they be so sweet... sweet?
As I walk through the valley of death I will fear no evil BUT evil will have no choice but to FEAR ME!!!
As I walk through the valley of death I will fear no evil BUT evil will have no choice but to FEAR ME!!!
Alot of people on here commenting about pvp have no clue what they are talking about...
Pvp makes a game if its done right, and it hasn't been done right yet...
First of all PVE is just a watered down version of pvp - you just never lose because the enemy is designed to be stupid and the person designed wins even though you are because he gets all your money so you can feel good about yourself killing his drone mobs...
The same thing can be done with people which is what this post is about - just supplement the gamble of a pvp match and it will be fun for everyone. Its not true that people wouldn't like it if they didn't have enough material risk. There is always emotional risk in losing a pvp match.
Don't even mention sandwich style combat games on a pvp thread. Pvp games need many, many possible different strategies, and possibly combat based on reactions, hand eye coordination etc to be fun and unpredictable. Just because many people have screwed up pvp doesn't mean it cannot be done.
Furthermore do not be so ignorant as to believe that it is an iherently flawed concept just because past of examples of it did not sit well with you. In reality there is no definite line between one type of game and another. FPS'es, RTS's etc would not be played multiplayer at all if PVP were an inherently flawed concept. The same goes for permadeath. You have to think about stuff more carefully and look for clues everywhere about how stuff works.
Think about it - Unreal tournament - It has permadeath, but the only character advancement is gathering weapons and powerups. You grow, pvp until you die, then start over. Learn from this. Permadeath is doable as long as A) character advancement doesn't determine how much fun someone can have playing the game IE you don't need to max to have a chance to do anything, and/or
you level quickly. This game also has dependence on twitch skills to make PVP interesting. Also note that many people can fight at once so even if a particular player knows he is not the best he can still have fun fighting other people, its not a showdown between 1 player and another. For overall enjoyment of the game this is a good thing.
RTS- These games dont depend on twich skills but have many many different possible strategies and this is how PVP is made viable.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
Just because mobs have been programmed to be idiotic so far.... doesn't mean they will be forever. A computer beat the world's chess champion.
Video game AI can and will change, no one deliberately designs them to be stupid.
As for Unreal tournament being a mmorpg.... the closest i can think of is Face of Mankind that's looking to be a true FPS in a mmorpg world... a newbie won't have the weapons and equipment a veteran does, but its not impossible to win.
I know its not an mmorpg, but I was pointing out that there isn't some magical line distinguishing an fps game from an mmorpg game. These are simply terms people use to describe games, they do not define games.
For instance look at Purge Jihad, and Neocron etc. Purge Jihad has levels but you level really fast and they do not gaurantee beating someone of a lower level. Neocron which is fps style, has no permadeath like fps'es do and it has much more difficult leveling. You can't say that just because pvp in most mmorpgs are unsuccessful that means they all will be. Besides the fact that it depends heavily on the design, The games which I just mentioned are counterexamples.
The things which make pvp and permadeath viable in say Unreal Tournament are not exclusive to fpses, they can be used in an mmorpg as well. That is fast character advancement etc.
About the PVE, the point is computer AI is computer AI. There is only three ways they can make it - 1) It always beats you, 2) you always beat it (or always beat it once you figure it out), or 3) Its just like playing other people - unpredictable. #2 is the only condition acceptable to PVE players. If #3 they might as well just go pvp instead. The execption to this is if even when you lose you still get a little bit ahead then current PVE players would be fine with #3 or pvp instead either one.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
Dying in Unreal Tournament is not true permadeath. Yes you lose the weapons, and stuff you were carrying, but it can be regained in a matter of minutes. There is no significant character development.
You can't apply the same rules to a mmorpg. Some of the best moments in mmorpgs involve finding that rare weapon or doing something special/unique... or in PvP case, gaining a reputation. Then bam, permadeath, and you're a level 1/skill-less again? Its not fixable by making leveling and item gaining "cheap" and easy either, that just makes it a shallow game. There is a magical line between pvp in a fps and pvp in a mmorpg.
Also, I don't see where this stereotyping of PvE comes from. The only people who want repetitive mobs easy to beat, are powergamers who only aim to be the best. Casual gamers, who are rising in number, want mobs that are fun and interesting to fight. An AI does not have to mimic PC's either, they can emulate animal behavior or have certain tendencies and other behaviors programmed in.
People have the same responses all the time. Go play an FPS if you want to PVP. But this will not stop the requests for a pure PVP mmorpg.
People like me have played mmorpgs and enjoyed the concept of playing a roleplaying game with many other players online. Many of us have played FPSes and have enjoyed the competitive fast paced action, but we also enjoy character development, the feeling of achievement and the social aspects of mmorpgs.
Most mmorpgs have stuck to a tried and true concept of creating a happy friendly world where everyone has to get on with each other while they battle the randomly spawning enemies who have no identity, so there is no remorse in killing them. A gamer like me can only play such a game for a short while, until the game feels unrealistic, repetitive and boring.
Conflict is what we seek, without conflict nothing that is done has any meaning. What use is that powerful sword if you cannot use it to defend your homeland from a real threat? Whats the use of amassing a huge wealth if you cannot use it to take control of the world?
I do understand there are people who don't want to/ will never have anything to do with PVP. But stating that a pure PVP game will never work because I don't like PVP is a terribly flawed argument. Do you want to try and stop other people from having fun? I don't particularly like Baseball, so do I go into a discussion forum about Baseball and try to convince people that it's a terrible game? Of course not.
You are of course welcome to state that you don't like PVP, as I am stating right now I don't like PVE, and cannot ever again play an mmorpg that is non PVP. But a pure PVP mmorpg will be very successul (if done right). That I can pretty much guarantee.
*Signature*The Pessimist says the cup is half empty. The Optimist says the cup is half full. The Pragmatist says the cup is half full of air. The Engineer says the cup is operating at 50% capacity. The Psychologist says the cup is your mother. The Punk Kid also says the cup is your mother. The Cricket Player says his cup is definately full. Everyone knows that Pamela Andersons cups are full. The Defendant says it was like that when he found it. Me, I just ask the waitress for a refill.