Originally posted by rentantilus If someone knows they don't have "much time to devote to games," I find it highly unlikely that they're avid MMORPG fans, considering these kinds of games require vastly more attention than any other style of video game, especially considering the monthly fee. The type of game I'm proposing would cater to the serious MMORPG player, not the average person who only has a few minutes on their lunchbreak to play Tetris. If someone is so cramped for time that they just want to "get right in on the action," I also don't think they'd enjoy an MMORPG that required several weeks, even months of regular play to get a character to a competetive level of ability. People like that probably prefer quick deathmatch types of games like CounterStrike, Tribes, or Unreal.
Thats not true at all to be honest.
Your logic is that MMORPGs are not fun at low levels, and that they arent meant to be. You shouldnt need to play for months just to be competative. yeah you are never going to be as high a level as someone who plays twice as much as you, and yes you cannot compete with that person.
But why does that have to stop the game being fun, why cant a low level person have fun quests, fun PvE and fun PvP against people of the same level?
Games these days do not have much of a low end game, and are all based on getting as high as you can so that you can compete with the high level players. And this is pointless, this is why people complain of a grind.
You need to make the game equally fun no matter what level you are on, then people wont be so obsessed with getting to the highest level.
it is people who play so long that they reach a high level very fast that are spoiling MMORPG's and not those who dont play very often.
Sorry. Maybe I was getting a little too defensive.
Yeah, I only played Endless Ages for about 2 hours. The reason i didnt like it though, was that its twitch based, and Im on satelite, which doesnt really work out that well.
Originally posted by Ashwynn UO was pure pvp when it released. before the new land, cant think of the name, not Fellucia, the other one. It was like walk out the door and get Cop Por'd to death.
They only did one fault with that game at the start (except the instahit halberds ) and that was exactly what other games have missed out on since day 1 or mmorpg history (day 1 = UO ). Penalty for PK'ing should HURT. In the start of uo you just had to let the computer run during the night and when you woke up all the kills you had done the day before wouldve been removed from your 'rating'. So if you died then would yield no penalty... later they changed it to a more harsher penalty but it was too late and everyone we're scared of venturing outside the towns hehe.
Sadest thing about this is that since then ppl have forgotten how bloody fun it was to be chased by a PK. The first time you get pretty shook up and angry/sad/annoyed, and if you start to get scared of venturing out of town then youll probably not survive the game. BUT if you stand tall and think strategically and only bring stuff you can afford to lose or join with a gang of veterans that can take the punishment while you run for dear life if the PKs come, then you will love that game forever. I'll never forget the time in UO when i was with a gang of other noobs at 'Bone-wall' (It was a leveling place in a dungeon, you stood and chopped at skeletons in a group and if you got hit you backed off and healed, just to go back in again). Anyway, it was a popular place for PK's to raid. So anyhoo, one time when the PK's arrived, we didnt run... And it was the most fun i've ever had in a computer game EVER! Imagine 10 total beginners trying to stand tall and fight the almighty PK's. I get tear-eyed just thinking about it ^^
As i see it, you cannot make a glorious mmorpg without unconsensual PvP to some degree. Im pretty surprised that most high-lvl content mobs arent in pvp playfields in all the games, it would make it sooo much interesting. Its just that when the PK finally dies, he should be punished with SEVERE consequences. And i dont mean lose some skill, i mean a chance for perma-death or losing half their levels. Plus, items should always be a chance to drop when pk'd. otherwise who cares if you die...
Oh, and to keep this on topic. Pure pvp games = FPS. Btw theres old-skool free UO servers around, give that a try if you want to feel how it is to be vary of strangers ^^
Originally posted by Umbrood Thats like saying that watching "The shining" and "The big lebowski" appeals to the same emotions, or that you are reading Stephen King and Terry Pratchett for the same reason. Games are only an interactive form of entertainment, pretty much like books or movies. And to this day I have never ever read a book or watched a movie to gain respect. And the notion that emotion or enjoyment out of game can only come from respect from others is rather sad. All respect is earned and of all varietys there are the one you gain from games are the most irrelevant. Allthough I now understand your thirst for PvP better as that is very much based on respect and no where do you find more 1337 talkers that try to gain fame, respect and/or notoriety by better other people. There are a million things one can do in ones life to gain liking and respect from others and killing people in a virtual world is pretty much at the bottom of that list, even more so what you gain that way is virtual as well.
Umbrood respect is just one way to refer to the emotion that I am talking about. It starts out in every person as a feeling from hearing a heartbeat, seeing someone smile, and maybe feeling warmth around them. Then from that it gets related to all kinds of other things and thats how a person's personality is formed. In every person its defined as the things it has been related to from the initial triggers, but respect is just an easy way to refer to it directly. It doesn't mean I'm trying to say that people only do things for real life appreciation. You can call it respect, or love, or smiles or whatever you want to, but its still what drives alot of your actions.
Calling it a different thing for every new activity you relate it to is a really inefficient way of analyzing things and you wont get anywhere that way.
And yeah people do watch movies and read books often times for the same reason. You cast yourself in the role of the character and pretend you are doing all the cool stuff the character does. Thats why people always feel like fighting when seeing a kungfu or james bond movie. Or maybe you sympathize with the character. Sometimes people read to figure things out because they are working towards respect or love or whatever for intellectual accomplishments. Before you are actually watching a movie you haven't seen before, you want to watch it because you know it might offer these things.
Once again I am talking about your subconsious mind, not saying that you sit there thinking "Woah people will think I'm cool if I do this" You are driven to do the things because the act of doing them gives you a little bit of the emotion, until the point your unconsious sees it as a lost cause in which case it will then no longer seem fun or maybe even make you angry if made people dislike you more than like you and its someones fault.
And about pvp, once a person himself does not hold any great anger towards a person that defeats him in an online game, then he will cease to sympathize with someone he defeats. Just like you don't feel bad for winning a basketball game because everyone enters knowing they might win and might lose and have experienced both. The same reason why grownups don't throw fits that they lose attention when someone else tells a funny joke.
In this mature state of competition, competition is fun for everyone because when you lose you respect the winners accomplishment and in turn they respect you for being honorable. When you win you are respected for your accoplishment. However this requires people who are mature, which means most people do not whine when they lose and noone who talks smack when they win (unless its friendly smack). These two people are usually one and the same.
For example thats why you see some people who cannot debate with one another without instantly resorting to namecalling while others disagree but debate in a somewhat civilized manner, and maybe even complement each other...
Originally posted by Genjing As for the whole fun RPG/FPS thing, yes, they are the same emotion, the same type of brain activity. Yet some people like some genre's and not others. Why? They are different. I may not be able to explain it better but it is. Its the same reason some poeple like reading books more than playing bball, or vice versa. By saying no magical lines exist, you're saying all video gamers should like all genres, and some super game that combines the best elements of every game will be loved by everyone. It doesn't work that way. One man's treasure is another man's trash etc etc. The magical line is created by gamers based on personal preference.
Im not saying that people dont have different preferences. But they don't know exactly what makes the games fun or not fun. Its not like people said "Hey I want a game that runs in real time and you control an army and build structures to support your army" And then someone said "ok" and then makes rts games. People just make games randomly, or perhaps some make them with a perfect knowledge of the human mind and what will be fun.
If all the factors of the game work together in terms of being fun to the player then the game is copied and given a genre name. That doesn't mean they are the only games that will be fun. It also doesn't mean that the factors that made that game fun wouldn't work with other factors either. Like how Deus EX combined rpg and fps. Some factors only work together and some dont affect one another. The element of simulated character development doesn't depend on any specific combat mechanics. Permadeath does however depend on the time and importance of character development.
Anyways thanks for sharing your pov, later.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
I don't know if the original poster is stil following the thread, since it's become a big discussion between lovers and detractors of pvp.
If you are still here reading, I'd say check out Darkfall, (website is www.darkfallonline.com), it's a game in the works with pvp in mind, check their FAQ out for details. I have hopes for this game because their promised a combat system that requires user skill, a-la Planetside, where you need to aim to hit, as opposed to the EQ-like fights of so many games out there, where you mash your "stun-nuke-nuke" hotkeys and look away from the TV for a second to see who died.
Another game that I haven't tried myself is Guildwars, but the people who tried it during their E3 open beta days told me it's a lot of fun. It has pvp arena combat, apparently it's really good.
I actually don't understand why "carebears" play MMORPGs. The point of these games is that you are playing with and against other players. If that is not something you want then I suggest you check out single player games. I also don't understand games that don't allow pvp or have special PvP servers where you can't do anything other then PvP.
I am a PvP-er and I love fighting players and knowing that if I lose I'll have to spend time to get back on my feet and if I win the other guy will have to do the same. There's nothing more exiting then that. I understand that you may not want to constantly pvp or be under a constant threat that someone might come along and gank you but I'd rather want that then no pvp options at all.
EVE-Online has a good PvP system. Every area has a security status and in the most carebear friendly systems you can't pvp at all unless your corporations (guilds) are at war. In medium security systems you can PvP but the attacker is at a disadvantage and you should be able to avoid pvp altogether in there if you're awake and know how to play the game. In lawless areas PvP is very common and if you don't know what you are doing you'll probably not live for long out there without getting ganked. You gain the most money in those areas and the least in the carebear systems so even if you don't like pvp it is still very tempting to go into deep space to make money.
It is very possible to PvP for a living in EVE but it is hard and the profits aren't as good as if you choose most other professions but it is fun.
Signature? I don't need no steeeenking signature!1!1!1
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Originally posted by RotAnimal I actually don't understand why "carebears" play MMORPGs. The point of these games is that you are playingwith and against other players. If that is not something you want then I suggest you check out single player games. I also don't understand games that don't allow pvp or have special PvP servers where you can't do anything other then PvP.to go into deep space to make money.
amswered your own question there. I enjoy one on one pvp, or team vs team. In general I'm what you'd consider a carebare because most of the time I play to enjoy the community and to play WITH other players. As for the thirll of PvP, I get it unfortunatly gankers (and theres always plenty of em) ruin that experience. I've had a couple game experiences destroyed by gankers, as a result u get nothing from the game, quit andy never play again. Gankers are the biggest problem with PvP which is why most games have to have restriction on it. Otherwise (like in L2) you get jackasses who hang around newb areas ganking them for the hell of it, then you get your newbs cacelling since there first couple hours where spent dead due to some dumbass ganker. Also in games that feature both pve and pvp long term players have the advantage of higher end gear and armor on lower end toons (IE AO, a level 60 newb has no chance against a lev 50 long term player).
Oh yea, then theres the 1337 PvP'ers, lol "pwnzed j00 biatch"... they are the same people who it it fly as sore loser when you beat them. I had one ass who ganked me in AO ( I was in rezz and 20 levs lower) and got 5 mins worth of tells about how he "pwnzed me and I was his biatch".. So I switched to a toon I had around his level and droped him fast and without effort... Then I got 5 mins of tells about what an asshole I was ect... then he started griefing our fields for the next couple hours cause he was pissed.
I have a lot of fun in PvP, and joke around with the guys who serve me up. after all it's just a game. But to many take it to seriously, and live vicariously through there character, and others who gank and whine and grief. I also agree with whoever said pure PvP games get boring fast. I love playing Unreal Tournament, but can't play for long term periods just cause it gets boring after an hour or so then I got my fill for a couple days. Although personally I prefer rogue spear
A full PvP game is fine, and there are lots of great PvP'er out there who are fun to play with. But those before mention spoil those style games to much to make them worth my time. I don't feel like dealing with the headache of some whining kid if I win, or some whining kid if I lose.
If you haven't tested EVE-Online already then I suggest you try it. It has a steep learning curve and requres some patience so most of the 10 year old 1337 n00b pwn players don't hang around for long. I don't see very much of what you describe in EVE. Most of the PvP-ers are very mature and when the dust has settled I usually start a convo and we compare notes on the battle and we make excuses why we lost
I have a few accounts in EVE. My main account is a pirate hunter who kills player pirates for a living. It's hard work and I can count my montly kills on the fingers of one hand and often of the finger of one finger but the kills are very rewarding cause you know you are killing experienced players who PvP for a living and are set up for nothing but PvP. On another account I am a pirate and kill pretty much everything I see. I get loads of kills and I'm also killed quite frequently (been killed twice today) but it is a new character so I don't mind getting killed a few times Both when I kill pirates and when I kill inocent people that aren't expecting any trouble the reaction is pretty cool and we have a laugh afterwards. Sure I see the occational trash talk but that's just a part of the game in a way. Makes it a lot more fun when you kill someone who has been a pain in chat before but also hurts a bit more when he kills me
My main character (the bounty hunter) is very old and probably among the most skilled (exp point wise) chars in EVE but my pirate is 3 weeks old and can just barely fly his ship. He can still get good kills and I've killed guys over a year old. Experience (and luck) has a lot to say.
Signature? I don't need no steeeenking signature!1!1!1
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The best quality about EVE is that you have so much freedom and so many options. It can be a bit overwhelming at first but it also means that you can play it for a long time before you get bored with it. If you're going to dl the trial then I suggest that you find a corporation as soon as you're finished the tutorial. They will help you get started and supply you with the equipment you need and teach you how to play the game cause it's a little hard at first.
Been playing for 18 months and I still play for hours each day and nowhere near had enough of it
Signature? I don't need no steeeenking signature!1!1!1
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Comments
Thats not true at all to be honest.
Your logic is that MMORPGs are not fun at low levels, and that they arent meant to be. You shouldnt need to play for months just to be competative. yeah you are never going to be as high a level as someone who plays twice as much as you, and yes you cannot compete with that person.
But why does that have to stop the game being fun, why cant a low level person have fun quests, fun PvE and fun PvP against people of the same level?
Games these days do not have much of a low end game, and are all based on getting as high as you can so that you can compete with the high level players. And this is pointless, this is why people complain of a grind.
You need to make the game equally fun no matter what level you are on, then people wont be so obsessed with getting to the highest level.
it is people who play so long that they reach a high level very fast that are spoiling MMORPG's and not those who dont play very often.
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
Exactly!
----------------------------
Currently Playing:
DarkWind: War on Wheels
Games Played/Beta Tested
Matrix Online
Auto Assault
Anarchy Online
Everquest 1 & 2
EVE
DarkWind: War on Wheels
Sorry. Maybe I was getting a little too defensive.
Yeah, I only played Endless Ages for about 2 hours. The reason i didnt like it though, was that its twitch based, and Im on satelite, which doesnt really work out that well.
----------------------------
Currently Playing:
DarkWind: War on Wheels
Games Played/Beta Tested
Matrix Online
Auto Assault
Anarchy Online
Everquest 1 & 2
EVE
DarkWind: War on Wheels
They only did one fault with that game at the start (except the instahit halberds
Sadest thing about this is that since then ppl have forgotten how bloody fun it was to be chased by a PK. The first time you get pretty shook up and angry/sad/annoyed, and if you start to get scared of venturing out of town then youll probably not survive the game. BUT if you stand tall and think strategically and only bring stuff you can afford to lose or join with a gang of veterans that can take the punishment while you run for dear life if the PKs come, then you will love that game forever. I'll never forget the time in UO when i was with a gang of other noobs at 'Bone-wall' (It was a leveling place in a dungeon, you stood and chopped at skeletons in a group and if you got hit you backed off and healed, just to go back in again). Anyway, it was a popular place for PK's to raid. So anyhoo, one time when the PK's arrived, we didnt run... And it was the most fun i've ever had in a computer game EVER! Imagine 10 total beginners trying to stand tall and fight the almighty PK's. I get tear-eyed just thinking about it ^^
As i see it, you cannot make a glorious mmorpg without unconsensual PvP to some degree. Im pretty surprised that most high-lvl content mobs arent in pvp playfields in all the games, it would make it sooo much interesting. Its just that when the PK finally dies, he should be punished with SEVERE consequences. And i dont mean lose some skill, i mean a chance for perma-death or losing half their levels. Plus, items should always be a chance to drop when pk'd. otherwise who cares if you die...
Oh, and to keep this on topic. Pure pvp games = FPS. Btw theres old-skool free UO servers around, give that a try if you want to feel how it is to be vary of strangers ^^
_______________________________________________________________________________________
Umbrood respect is just one way to refer to the emotion that I am talking about. It starts out in every person as a feeling from hearing a heartbeat, seeing someone smile, and maybe feeling warmth around them. Then from that it gets related to all kinds of other things and thats how a person's personality is formed. In every person its defined as the things it has been related to from the initial triggers, but respect is just an easy way to refer to it directly. It doesn't mean I'm trying to say that people only do things for real life appreciation. You can call it respect, or love, or smiles or whatever you want to, but its still what drives alot of your actions.
Calling it a different thing for every new activity you relate it to is a really inefficient way of analyzing things and you wont get anywhere that way.
And yeah people do watch movies and read books often times for the same reason. You cast yourself in the role of the character and pretend you are doing all the cool stuff the character does. Thats why people always feel like fighting when seeing a kungfu or james bond movie. Or maybe you sympathize with the character. Sometimes people read to figure things out because they are working towards respect or love or whatever for intellectual accomplishments. Before you are actually watching a movie you haven't seen before, you want to watch it because you know it might offer these things.
Once again I am talking about your subconsious mind, not saying that you sit there thinking "Woah people will think I'm cool if I do this" You are driven to do the things because the act of doing them gives you a little bit of the emotion, until the point your unconsious sees it as a lost cause in which case it will then no longer seem fun or maybe even make you angry if made people dislike you more than like you and its someones fault.
And about pvp, once a person himself does not hold any great anger towards a person that defeats him in an online game, then he will cease to sympathize with someone he defeats. Just like you don't feel bad for winning a basketball game because everyone enters knowing they might win and might lose and have experienced both. The same reason why grownups don't throw fits that they lose attention when someone else tells a funny joke.
In this mature state of competition, competition is fun for everyone because when you lose you respect the winners accomplishment and in turn they respect you for being honorable. When you win you are respected for your accoplishment. However this requires people who are mature, which means most people do not whine when they lose and noone who talks smack when they win (unless its friendly smack). These two people are usually one and the same.
For example thats why you see some people who cannot debate with one another without instantly resorting to namecalling while others disagree but debate in a somewhat civilized manner, and maybe even complement each other...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
I don't know if the original poster is stil following the thread, since it's become a big discussion between lovers and detractors of pvp.
If you are still here reading, I'd say check out Darkfall, (website is www.darkfallonline.com), it's a game in the works with pvp in mind, check their FAQ out for details. I have hopes for this game because their promised a combat system that requires user skill, a-la Planetside, where you need to aim to hit, as opposed to the EQ-like fights of so many games out there, where you mash your "stun-nuke-nuke" hotkeys and look away from the TV for a second to see who died.
Another game that I haven't tried myself is Guildwars, but the people who tried it during their E3 open beta days told me it's a lot of fun. It has pvp arena combat, apparently it's really good.
I actually don't understand why "carebears" play MMORPGs. The point of these games is that you are playing with and against other players. If that is not something you want then I suggest you check out single player games. I also don't understand games that don't allow pvp or have special PvP servers where you can't do anything other then PvP.
I am a PvP-er and I love fighting players and knowing that if I lose I'll have to spend time to get back on my feet and if I win the other guy will have to do the same. There's nothing more exiting then that. I understand that you may not want to constantly pvp or be under a constant threat that someone might come along and gank you but I'd rather want that then no pvp options at all.
EVE-Online has a good PvP system. Every area has a security status and in the most carebear friendly systems you can't pvp at all unless your corporations (guilds) are at war. In medium security systems you can PvP but the attacker is at a disadvantage and you should be able to avoid pvp altogether in there if you're awake and know how to play the game. In lawless areas PvP is very common and if you don't know what you are doing you'll probably not live for long out there without getting ganked. You gain the most money in those areas and the least in the carebear systems so even if you don't like pvp it is still very tempting to go into deep space to make money.
It is very possible to PvP for a living in EVE but it is hard and the profits aren't as good as if you choose most other professions but it is fun.
Signature? I don't need no steeeenking signature!1!1!1
Signature? I don't need no steeeenking signature!1!1!1
amswered your own question there. I enjoy one on one pvp, or team vs team. In general I'm what you'd consider a carebare because most of the time I play to enjoy the community and to play WITH other players. As for the thirll of PvP, I get it unfortunatly gankers (and theres always plenty of em) ruin that experience. I've had a couple game experiences destroyed by gankers, as a result u get nothing from the game, quit andy never play again. Gankers are the biggest problem with PvP which is why most games have to have restriction on it. Otherwise (like in L2) you get jackasses who hang around newb areas ganking them for the hell of it, then you get your newbs cacelling since there first couple hours where spent dead due to some dumbass ganker. Also in games that feature both pve and pvp long term players have the advantage of higher end gear and armor on lower end toons (IE AO, a level 60 newb has no chance against a lev 50 long term player).
Oh yea, then theres the 1337 PvP'ers, lol "pwnzed j00 biatch"... they are the same people who it it fly as sore loser when you beat them. I had one ass who ganked me in AO ( I was in rezz and 20 levs lower) and got 5 mins worth of tells about how he "pwnzed me and I was his biatch".. So I switched to a toon I had around his level and droped him fast and without effort... Then I got 5 mins of tells about what an asshole I was ect... then he started griefing our fields for the next couple hours cause he was pissed.
I have a lot of fun in PvP, and joke around with the guys who serve me up. after all it's just a game. But to many take it to seriously, and live vicariously through there character, and others who gank and whine and grief. I also agree with whoever said pure PvP games get boring fast. I love playing Unreal Tournament, but can't play for long term periods just cause it gets boring after an hour or so then I got my fill for a couple days. Although personally I prefer rogue spear
A full PvP game is fine, and there are lots of great PvP'er out there who are fun to play with. But those before mention spoil those style games to much to make them worth my time. I don't feel like dealing with the headache of some whining kid if I win, or some whining kid if I lose.
If you haven't tested EVE-Online already then I suggest you try it. It has a steep learning curve and requres some patience so most of the 10 year old 1337 n00b pwn players don't hang around for long. I don't see very much of what you describe in EVE. Most of the PvP-ers are very mature and when the dust has settled I usually start a convo and we compare notes on the battle and we make excuses why we lost
I have a few accounts in EVE. My main account is a pirate hunter who kills player pirates for a living. It's hard work and I can count my montly kills on the fingers of one hand and often of the finger of one finger
but the kills are very rewarding cause you know you are killing experienced players who PvP for a living and are set up for nothing but PvP. On another account I am a pirate and kill pretty much everything I see. I get loads of kills and I'm also killed quite frequently (been killed twice today) but it is a new character so I don't mind getting killed a few times 
Both when I kill pirates and when I kill inocent people that aren't expecting any trouble the reaction is pretty cool and we have a laugh afterwards. Sure I see the occational trash talk but that's just a part of the game in a way. Makes it a lot more fun when you kill someone who has been a pain in chat before but also hurts a bit more when he kills me 
My main character (the bounty hunter) is very old and probably among the most skilled (exp point wise) chars in EVE but my pirate is 3 weeks old and can just barely fly his ship. He can still get good kills and I've killed guys over a year old. Experience (and luck) has a lot to say.
Signature? I don't need no steeeenking signature!1!1!1
Signature? I don't need no steeeenking signature!1!1!1
It is a space game and a pretty good one at that.
The best quality about EVE is that you have so much freedom and so many options. It can be a bit overwhelming at first but it also means that you can play it for a long time before you get bored with it. If you're going to dl the trial then I suggest that you find a corporation as soon as you're finished the tutorial. They will help you get started and supply you with the equipment you need and teach you how to play the game cause it's a little hard at first.
Been playing for 18 months and I still play for hours each day and nowhere near had enough of it
Signature? I don't need no steeeenking signature!1!1!1
Signature? I don't need no steeeenking signature!1!1!1