The first thing you do is roll a turning check to see how powerful an undead creature you can turn. This is a Charisma check (1d20 + your Charisma modifier). Table: Turning Undead gives you the Hit Dice of the most powerful undead you can affect, relative to your level. On a given turning attempt, you can turn no undead creature whose Hit Dice exceed the result on this table.
Turning Damage
If your roll on Table: Turning Undead is high enough to let you turn at least some of the undead within 60 feet, roll 2d6 + your cleric level + your Charisma modifier for turning damage. That’s how many total Hit Dice of undead you can turn.
If your Charisma score is average or low, it’s possible to roll fewer Hit Dice of undead turned than indicated on Table: Turning Undead.
The flaw in your argument is plain. Baldur's Gate != MMO. The consessions made seem exceedingly reasonable. Wizard? How boring would it be to have only a few spells to cast per day. That mechanic only barely works in P&P because you can skip a lot of down time. You can't fast forward time in an MMO, at least not a persistant world MMO. Oh but you could just have the Wizard tag along for the first four or 10 levels until the class begins to shine. Again, how boring is that for the player in an MMO? The consession to ranks in leveling also makes sense. If the player characters are going to gain 20 levels as in P&P, then that level advancement in an MMO would see you gaining a level about once every month (because 20lvl is the typical maximum of most D&D campaigns). So there you have a month of gaining no rewards, no advancement for your character. Again boring. And if you're playing a P&P version of a wizard in this set up? Damn, that's boring ^2. So Turbine decides to implement ranks so that rewards and character advancement can happen more frequently. Ranks also gives the game more longevity as there are effectively more levels to gain. Hmmm, guess who else had this same thought? Yep, WoTC is implementing something very similar with 4th edition. Oh, and the Wizard in DDO? Yep, that's essentially the Warlock you find in splat books--you know, WoTC's version of a wizard that can do at least SOMETHING every round of combat. Really, the complaints of DDO as compared to the P&P version have zero merit. As compared to solo single player games, the complaints have only marginally more merit.
The problem is that everything is inflated.
All mobs past the Harbor have insane amounts of HP... HP to make up for the fact that all heroes have an extra 20 HP plus all your hit dice are maxxed out.
Why is this a big deal? Because your 6 HD mob now has 48+ HP, and your 6d6 fireball is only doing 6*3.5 = 21 HP. OK no problem, let's add enhancements to increase the amount of damge the fireball does by 10%-40%. Lets add weapon enchantments which also do this. Lets give wizards bunches of spell points so he can cast the 3 fireballs to take down that mob instead of the 1 that would have taken him down in PnP. Oops now melee is underpowered, lets boost their follow up attacks by +5 and +10 rather than decrease them like in PnP. And it continued to escalate from there.
So while yes it is all done to try to make it play better as a MMO, a lot of it just got out of hand and is bloating out of all the stats to the point where it starts to resemble something not entirely like PnP. They just kept adding stuff to fix things until it balanced rather than trying to keep as much stuff as possible the same and only fix what absolutely had to be fixed.
Can they fix it now? I don't think so. They've finally got something that is moderately balanced... they can't go back now, it would be like starting over.
i think the thing that put me off about ddo when i tried it upon release was i felt it seamed to be a bit limited . just one dungeon after another . the dungeons did nt seam paticulary inspired . i would be willing to give it a try again and proberbly will after this module 7 is released . i m not sure weather a 10 day trial is enough to get me into playing it ,maybe like eve they should offer a 21 day trial it might be worth it if it gets new subscribers . also i think some of the less popular mmos should look at 2 week subs or maybe look at lowering the cost of the monthly subscription (maybe for the first 6 months of play) just to get people interested in playing them . it proberbly would lead to greater prophets at the end of the day .
i think the thing that put me off about ddo when i tried it upon release was i felt it seamed to be a bit limited . just one dungeon after another . the dungeons did nt seam paticulary inspired . i would be willing to give it a try again and proberbly will after this module 7 is released . i m not sure weather a 10 day trial is enough to get me into playing it ,maybe like eve they should offer a 21 day trial it might be worth it if it gets new subscribers . also i think some of the less popular mmos should look at 2 week subs or maybe look at lowering the cost of the monthly subscription (maybe for the first 6 months of play) just to get people interested in playing them . it proberbly would lead to greater prophets at the end of the day .
You can now "buy" DDO off of their web site for $14.99... and that includes a free month. So the game itself is effectively free.
They are also running a deal right now through April 6th or thereabouts where you can subscribe for 6 months for $9.99/month (and you keep that price as long as you stay subscribed).
I think the dungeons are mostly well done in DDO... there are about 200 of them now, and for the most part they are all different.
I disagree. There is no flaw inherent in the fact that Baldurs gate is not an MMO. If anything, there is flaw in thinking that MMOs have some special programming convention that set them apart from the normal rules of coding. C++ is still C++, is it not?
As for the concessions being reasonable? Maybe for the lazy devs, yeah. They could have used many different approaches to the system, but instead they changed the rules.
As for cleric turning, last I played I rolled 3 HD worth of creatures and one single skeleton ran away, while two others beat on me. I haven't played tabletop since 2005, but isn't a skeleton like 1/3 of a die or something? They should have been pulverized.
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also i think some of the less popular mmos should look at 2 week subs or maybe look at lowering the cost of the monthly subscription (maybe for the first 6 months of play) just to get people interested in playing them . it proberbly would lead to greater prophets at the end of the day .
While that sounds like a good idea, it might seem to penalize anyone who WANTS to keep playing after the 6 months is over by charging them more. It looks like that may be a trend [at Turbine, anyway] - lowering the sub price for a longterm sub [6 months] after a game has been out for a while. Both DDO & LOTRO are offering $10/month subs for 6 months...
"greater prophets?" Like "Jesus saves, the rest of the party takes 36 points of damage"?
Cerion, I disagree. There is no flaw inherent in the fact that Baldurs gate is not an MMO. If anything, there is flaw in thinking that MMOs have some special programming convention that set them apart from the normal rules of coding. C++ is still C++, is it not?
As for the concessions being reasonable? Maybe for the lazy devs, yeah. They could have used many different approaches to the system, but instead they changed the rules. As for cleric turning, last I played I rolled 3 HD worth of creatures and one single skeleton ran away, while two others beat on me. I haven't played tabletop since 2005, but isn't a skeleton like 1/3 of a die or something? They should have been pulverized.
Cerion, I disagree. There is no flaw inherent in the fact that Baldurs gate is not an MMO. If anything, there is flaw in thinking that MMOs have some special programming convention that set them apart from the normal rules of coding. C++ is still C++, is it not?
As for the concessions being reasonable? Maybe for the lazy devs, yeah. They could have used many different approaches to the system, but instead they changed the rules. As for cleric turning, last I played I rolled 3 HD worth of creatures and one single skeleton ran away, while two others beat on me. I haven't played tabletop since 2005, but isn't a skeleton like 1/3 of a die or something? They should have been pulverized.
Your misunderstanding of PnP doesn't translate into a failure by the devs. If you don't know how PnP works, perhaps you should find that out first before you criticize.
Cerion, I disagree. There is no flaw inherent in the fact that Baldurs gate is not an MMO. If anything, there is flaw in thinking that MMOs have some special programming convention that set them apart from the normal rules of coding. C++ is still C++, is it not?
As for the concessions being reasonable? Maybe for the lazy devs, yeah. They could have used many different approaches to the system, but instead they changed the rules. As for cleric turning, last I played I rolled 3 HD worth of creatures and one single skeleton ran away, while two others beat on me. I haven't played tabletop since 2005, but isn't a skeleton like 1/3 of a die or something? They should have been pulverized.
Your misunderstanding of PnP doesn't translate into a failure by the devs. If you don't know how PnP works, perhaps you should find that out first before you criticize.
THACO??? I mean, come on.
Epic fail at reading comprehension, much? What kills me is that this has bothered you enough to mention it a second time, but you never understood what you were replying to the first time. I never said or suggested that THAC0(Spelled T-H-A-C-ZERO, not O BTW) had anything to do with DDO. I said THAC0 had everything to do with complexity of the 2nd Edition ruleset, which it did and does.
I understand how PnP works in all editions since the blue book printing back when elves and dwarves were classes. I have been playing since before half the people on this BB were born. I also understand Palladium and White Wolf products, as well as G.U.R.P.S. and Shadowrun, to name a few. Don't think that your mis-reading of my posts can magically make me not understand the rules. I understand them perfectly, and THAT is why DDO bothers me.
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Something got lost along the way with PnP, the rules were only meant to be a guideline, house rules could be agreed, and the DM if they were worth anything would twist the rules a bit to make the quest fun. When did this breed of accountants start playing the game.
DDO definitely captures the spirit of the D&D game, both through quests and its interpretation of the rules. So it won't appeal to rule bashing zealots, who IMO totally miss the point of the game anyway, but for that I am strangely grateful.
Something got lost along the way with PnP, the rules were only meant to be a guideline, house rules could be agreed, and the DM if they were worth anything would twist the rules a bit to make the quest fun. When did this breed of accountants start playing the game. DDO definitely captures the spirit of the D&D game, both through quests and its interpretation of the rules. So it won't appeal to rule bashing zealots, who IMO totally miss the point of the game anyway, but for that I am strangely grateful.
Cerion, I disagree. There is no flaw inherent in the fact that Baldurs gate is not an MMO. If anything, there is flaw in thinking that MMOs have some special programming convention that set them apart from the normal rules of coding. C++ is still C++, is it not?
As for the concessions being reasonable? Maybe for the lazy devs, yeah. They could have used many different approaches to the system, but instead they changed the rules. As for cleric turning, last I played I rolled 3 HD worth of creatures and one single skeleton ran away, while two others beat on me. I haven't played tabletop since 2005, but isn't a skeleton like 1/3 of a die or something? They should have been pulverized.
Your misunderstanding of PnP doesn't translate into a failure by the devs. If you don't know how PnP works, perhaps you should find that out first before you criticize.
THACO??? I mean, come on.
Epic fail at reading comprehension, much? What kills me is that this has bothered you enough to mention it a second time, but you never understood what you were replying to the first time. I never said or suggested that THAC0(Spelled T-H-A-C-ZERO, not O BTW) had anything to do with DDO. I said THAC0 had everything to do with complexity of the 2nd Edition ruleset, which it did and does.
I understand how PnP works in all editions since the blue book printing back when elves and dwarves were classes. I have been playing since before half the people on this BB were born. I also understand Palladium and White Wolf products, as well as G.U.R.P.S. and Shadowrun, to name a few. Don't think that your mis-reading of my posts can magically make me not understand the rules. I understand them perfectly, and THAT is why DDO bothers me.
But really it seems you don't. I agree that Domains need to be implimented (not that Clerics really need a boost, they don't, easily the second easiest to solo class right behind arcane casters at high levels).
However if you checked the CR rating the difficulty in turning them aligns perfectly with P&P so following the rules that you have such a great grasp of turning is bahaiving as it should, considering most things are going to be at the upper end of their HD.
Now had you brought up spells based upon HP, such as circle of death, due to the mobs inflated HP's these spells do not work as they are in P&P, but instead you chose to focus on a mechanic that does work per P&P rules, hence the confusion by some of us responding to you.
I understand how PnP works in all editions since the blue book printing back when elves and dwarves were classes. I have been playing since before half the people on this BB were born. I also understand Palladium and White Wolf products, as well as G.U.R.P.S. and Shadowrun, to name a few. Don't think that your mis-reading of my posts can magically make me not understand the rules. I understand them perfectly, and THAT is why DDO bothers me.
You said:
"turning mechanics are still a wild and uncalled-for departure from tabletop rules."-Which is dead wrong. The mechanics are identical to tabletop rules.
"Most of the classes are broken, but clerics are the only ones that are so broken that the class in DDO doesn't match the mechanics of the PnP class in any way"-Which is dead wrong again. You give no examples of "broken" classes, other than turning being broken...and it isn't.
"It's like the devs took the 2nd Ed cleric and fudged some numbers and said "here you go."-How is it like this??? They aren't picking a sphere of influence, they aren't limited to blunt weapons, I'm not seeing it AT ALL.
"The game sucks because they are not using D&D mechanics. They are using some arbitrary system to run the whole game. Did I say "run?" I meant "RUIN." Just for future reference"-Again, this is patently false. They are using THE EXACT D&D mechanics for 99% of the game.
So, again, you make these claims, continually referring to archaic rulesets which the game isn't based on, and then don't back them up with any real facts.
I understand how PnP works in all editions since the blue book printing back when elves and dwarves were classes. I have been playing since before half the people on this BB were born. I also understand Palladium and White Wolf products, as well as G.U.R.P.S. and Shadowrun, to name a few. Don't think that your mis-reading of my posts can magically make me not understand the rules. I understand them perfectly, and THAT is why DDO bothers me.
You said:
"turning mechanics are still a wild and uncalled-for departure from tabletop rules."-Which is dead wrong. The mechanics are identical to tabletop rules.
"Most of the classes are broken, but clerics are the only ones that are so broken that the class in DDO doesn't match the mechanics of the PnP class in any way"-Which is dead wrong again. You give no examples of "broken" classes, other than turning being broken...and it isn't.
"It's like the devs took the 2nd Ed cleric and fudged some numbers and said "here you go."-How is it like this??? They aren't picking a sphere of influence, they aren't limited to blunt weapons, I'm not seeing it AT ALL.
"The game sucks because they are not using D&D mechanics. They are using some arbitrary system to run the whole game. Did I say "run?" I meant "RUIN." Just for future reference"-Again, this is patently false. They are using THE EXACT D&D mechanics for 99% of the game.
So, again, you make these claims, continually referring to archaic rulesets which the game isn't based on, and then don't back them up with any real facts.
To say they are using the exact D&D mechanics for 99% of the game is incorrect.
Between spell points (which is not a core rule), shortened spell durations, maxed out HP, heroic durability, and melee getting an additional attack per round as well as bonuses for followup attacks rather than reductions I would say the whole basis of the D&D mechanics was fundamentally altered.
Other than the basic HP/stat/save system everything else is somewhat different.
Now I'm not saying it's necessarily all a bad thing that they altered the game to make it fit an MMO model... but that's another topic altogether.
Well, you know as well as I do though Ridd, spell points ARE an alternate system straight out of Wizards. Granted, the BAB bonuses go in reverse, and HPs are fixed...but I'd say almost everything else is pretty much on the same page as the SRD. Which is a huge percentage.
p.s. More importantly, the examples the poster gave in particular WEREN'T out of line with PnP (like turning).
Well, you know as well as I do though Ridd, spell points ARE an alternate system straight out of Wizards. Granted, the BAB bonuses go in reverse, and HPs are fixed...but I'd say almost everything else is pretty much on the same page as the SRD. Which is a huge percentage.
p.s. More importantly, the examples the poster gave in particular WEREN'T out of line with PnP (like turning).
The BAB bonuses don't really go in reverse... they just go up instead of down.
A 14th level paladin gets a BAB of 14 on his first attack in DDO... the same as in PnP, and then it goes up from there (e.g. +14, +14, +19, +24 in DDO vs +14, +9, +4)... they get 4 attacks all as good or better than the first attack in PnP.
Yes turning is basically identical to PnP, but the problem is that all the HD are increased in DDO to the point where you are ineffective at turning running even-level quest.
The BAB bonuses don't really go in reverse... they just go up instead of down.
A 14th level paladin gets a BAB of 14 on his first attack in DDO... the same as in PnP, and then it goes up from there (e.g. +14, +14, +19, +24 in DDO vs +14, +9, +4)... they get 4 attacks all as good or better than the first attack in PnP.
Funny enough that is one of the best changes they made IMO. I always hated the PnP method, I get 4 attacks, you get 3 attacks, I get initiative so I will have 4 attacks before you get your first. Made no sense at all, and the dropping bonus was just a mechanism to try and hide some of that nastiness.
In DDO they naturally had the opportunity to turn those attacks in to times, so you can have multiple attacks interacting. So if they had stuck with the PnP rules you would either have people running in doing a single attack and running out of combat again, or you get your 4 attacks in the clunky way NWN does it, which seemed as horrible unrealistic as I use to imagine the PnP rules playing out in my head.
What they came up with seems a fair compromise, make the attacks sensible and timed, but don't make the combat silly with hit and run play.
The BAB bonuses don't really go in reverse... they just go up instead of down.
A 14th level paladin gets a BAB of 14 on his first attack in DDO... the same as in PnP, and then it goes up from there (e.g. +14, +14, +19, +24 in DDO vs +14, +9, +4)... they get 4 attacks all as good or better than the first attack in PnP.
Funny enough that is one of the best changes they made IMO. I always hated the PnP method, I get 4 attacks, you get 3 attacks, I get initiative so I will have 4 attacks before you get your first. Made no sense at all, and the dropping bonus was just a mechanism to try and hide some of that nastiness.
In DDO they naturally had the opportunity to turn those attacks in to times, so you can have multiple attacks interacting. So if they had stuck with the PnP rules you would either have people running in doing a single attack and running out of combat again, or you get your 4 attacks in the clunky way NWN does it, which seemed as horrible unrealistic as I use to imagine the PnP rules playing out in my head.
What they came up with seems a fair compromise, make the attacks sensible and timed, but don't make the combat silly with hit and run play.
I think the devs said the changes they made to the whole combat system in, I believe mod 5 timeframe actually removed the need for the "reverse" sequencing. If you duck out to try to break the attack sequence it would resume exactly where it should based on timing.
I think the biggest problem (and it's not really a problem) with the extra attack and boosted BAB is that it makes PvP go too fast. You are already on 2 second rounds instead of 6 seconds, then you tack on another attack and make it even easier to penetrate AC and that leads to PvP which is basically a gankfest.
On the other hand, the extra attack and boosted BAB also serves to narrow the gap between high level melee and high level casters. A lot of the changes to caster spell durations also served to narrow that gap... otherwise casters would just simply own the game after level 9, even more so than they do now.
So they did, at the same time they changed shot on the run. Still gives an advantage to stay in combat though, while a dropping bonus would give the incentive to do something else until your bonus was up again. I think the other reason for it is people don't like to miss too often, need to feel you are contributing something to the combat. Not so important in PnP which is drawn out and had the DM to enhance the situation, bit more obvious in a MMO.
Can't comment on PvP, D&D to me is all about parties and the mixing of the abilities within the party to overcome obstacles. So GvG should work okay, but PvP was never going to be anything but unbalanced.
So they did, at the same time they changed shot on the run. Still gives an advantage to stay in combat though, while a dropping bonus would give the incentive to do something else until your bonus was up again. I think the other reason for it is people don't like to miss too often, need to feel you are contributing something to the combat. Not so important in PnP which is drawn out and had the DM to enhance the situation, bit more obvious in a MMO.
I think timing that 2 second round to get your best attack in and moving out of the way for the reduced ones would be difficult... but I could see some of the really good players being able to do that.
IMO they should just remove the bonus altogether... instead of +14, +14, +19, +24 make it +14, +14, +14, +14. Then there would be no advantage at all for moving in or out of combat, and mob ACs could be adjusted downward again which would help the non-melee classes actually be able to hit once in a while.
IMO they should just remove the bonus altogether... instead of +14, +14, +19, +24 make it +14, +14, +14, +14. Then there would be no advantage at all for moving in or out of combat, and mob ACs could be adjusted downward again which would help the non-melee classes actually be able to hit once in a while.
I could live with that.
I would like to see the mobs rebalanced after removing some of the silly items, such as vorpals. Anything that kills instantly 5% of the time with the amount of attacks we have is just daft.
The balance and risk gets a bit lost as you reach higher levels, would like to see that restored, but think people are too wedded to their shineys now.
For the record I wasn't too bothered about it being D&D, yes I use to play, but it didn't jump out and say this needs to be a MMO. It was the physics, combat and the complexity of build that was available in DDO that hooked me.
I hope Turbine will use the same physics engine and turn it to some other genre, it is a real gem. But that is going OT.
Originally posted by Dr.Rock It was the physics, combat and the complexity of build that was available in DDO that hooked me.
This quote sums up a lot. IT is also the only reason why I play DDO along with many others who I've play with.
Being based upon D&D was one attraction I had to the game. Being I was only familar with AD&D and knew the game was going to be based on a new rule system I knew nothing about (and still know almost nothing of) my only expectation was that of Fun.
You're not going to find this level of dynamics and complexity in many online games. EVE is pretty much the king of the hill and being Star Wars Galaxies hasn't been reverted to the pre-combat-upgrade version there's not much out there to challenge us.
If anyone is upset 'cs any particular rule system isn't exactly how they believed it to be for the pen&paper system then you fail. Seriously, the rule mechanics were ment to exist as a baseline and were NEVER intended to be The End All to a gaming system. Turbine has done very well with modification of a few areas all in the name of Gameplay.
Being mad about DDO for not being 100.00% accurate is like throwing a tantrum when a Dungeon Master didn't roll a die to determine an outcome. Grow up people. DDO is by far one of the best dynamically strategic MMO's currently on the market and it 's a hell of a lot of fun to play.
so you're saying the game sucks cause you dont like the cleric class in DDO?kinda narrow minded...
How did you get that out of my post? I realize that interpretations vary, but what you are interpreting and what I said are not even in the same ball park. The game sucks because they are not using D&D mechanics. They are using some arbitrary system to run the whole game. Did I say "run?" I meant "RUIN."
Just for future reference, you can't argue that it would be hard to convert D20 to an MMO. If you did, you would lose. Plenty of games have used D&D rules, and Baldur's Gate used the THAC0 system, which was 10 times more complex than D20. That is why DDO = Epic fail.
Oh cry more. Seriously, you cannot compare the tabletop game to an MMO, atleast not pre ruleset 4. If you want to play online with DnD rules wait till they release the online client with version 4. Until then move on and shut up. No one cares that you and your miniatures are upset about the differences between TABLE TOP and DESK TOP....
If you cannot see the difference there then you need to stick to the dungeon you call a house and play with your 40 year old friends in tabletop only.
I agree that a re-review would be good just to revisit the game and give a more accurate description of where it is at current to people looking to try it out.
I double checked skeleton HD. Medium skeletons get 1HD, and have 1 HD worth of HPs in DDO. Starting characters in DDO get 30-ish HP. Generously assuming mean rolls of 5 on the HD, PC's in DDO have 5-6 HD. I was assuming that this would be 1/3 of starting HD in DDO, but perhaps not. Maybe I "misinterpreted" the direction they were going when they intentionally raped the rules for starting HP? It's possible. That's what happens when you change things.
And yeah, the changes they made are big enough to impact my opinion of the game. Why can't my fighter charge opponents? Where is the spiked chain? What about Dragonmarked Houses?
Originally posted by TedDanson Oh cry more. Seriously, you cannot compare the tabletop game to an MMO, atleast not pre ruleset 4. If you want to play online with DnD rules wait till they release the online client with version 4. Until then move on and shut up. No one cares that you and your miniatures are upset about the differences between TABLE TOP and DESK TOP....
If you cannot see the difference there then you need to stick to the dungeon you call a house and play with your 40 year old friends in tabletop only.
"Cry more"- statement made on the internet by a whiner wishing to immediately declare the text which follows as a troll.
DDO labels itself as D&D online. THIS is why it fails. As a stand alone MMO, it has improved and become better than say 80% of what's out there, but as "Dungeons and Dragons" Online, it is a waste of my time.
DDO definitely captures the spirit of the D&D game, both through quests and its interpretation of the rules.
Man, you must have had some crappy DM's then. The quests and world are static. I think it comes close as far as static dungeons, but if the 4th Edition software delivers as promised, you will see the difference. A bland voice reading a script ala Ben Stein is no match for the real thing. In a good D&D campaign, the story evolves and revolves around your personal set of characters. In DDO, the dungeons and plots do not evolve in any way. For this game to capture the feel of PnP, the story MUST be dynamic IMO. Perhaps I expected too much, but if the devs had waited to release DDO until things were ready, it's a goal they could have worked on.
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Comments
All I have to say...
THACO???
really???
BTW:
Turn Undead, in the SRD:
Turning Check
The first thing you do is roll a turning check to see how powerful an undead creature you can turn. This is a Charisma check (1d20 + your Charisma modifier). Table: Turning Undead gives you the Hit Dice of the most powerful undead you can affect, relative to your level. On a given turning attempt, you can turn no undead creature whose Hit Dice exceed the result on this table.
Turning Damage
If your roll on Table: Turning Undead is high enough to let you turn at least some of the undead within 60 feet, roll 2d6 + your cleric level + your Charisma modifier for turning damage. That’s how many total Hit Dice of undead you can turn.
If your Charisma score is average or low, it’s possible to roll fewer Hit Dice of undead turned than indicated on Table: Turning Undead.
Turn Undead in DDO works EXACTLY THE SAME WAY.
All mobs past the Harbor have insane amounts of HP... HP to make up for the fact that all heroes have an extra 20 HP plus all your hit dice are maxxed out.
Why is this a big deal? Because your 6 HD mob now has 48+ HP, and your 6d6 fireball is only doing 6*3.5 = 21 HP. OK no problem, let's add enhancements to increase the amount of damge the fireball does by 10%-40%. Lets add weapon enchantments which also do this. Lets give wizards bunches of spell points so he can cast the 3 fireballs to take down that mob instead of the 1 that would have taken him down in PnP. Oops now melee is underpowered, lets boost their follow up attacks by +5 and +10 rather than decrease them like in PnP. And it continued to escalate from there.
So while yes it is all done to try to make it play better as a MMO, a lot of it just got out of hand and is bloating out of all the stats to the point where it starts to resemble something not entirely like PnP. They just kept adding stuff to fix things until it balanced rather than trying to keep as much stuff as possible the same and only fix what absolutely had to be fixed.
Can they fix it now? I don't think so. They've finally got something that is moderately balanced... they can't go back now, it would be like starting over.
i think the thing that put me off about ddo when i tried it upon release was i felt it seamed to be a bit limited . just one dungeon after another . the dungeons did nt seam paticulary inspired . i would be willing to give it a try again and proberbly will after this module 7 is released . i m not sure weather a 10 day trial is enough to get me into playing it ,maybe like eve they should offer a 21 day trial it might be worth it if it gets new subscribers . also i think some of the less popular mmos should look at 2 week subs or maybe look at lowering the cost of the monthly subscription (maybe for the first 6 months of play) just to get people interested in playing them . it proberbly would lead to greater prophets at the end of the day .
You can now "buy" DDO off of their web site for $14.99... and that includes a free month. So the game itself is effectively free.They are also running a deal right now through April 6th or thereabouts where you can subscribe for 6 months for $9.99/month (and you keep that price as long as you stay subscribed).
I think the dungeons are mostly well done in DDO... there are about 200 of them now, and for the most part they are all different.
Cerion,
I disagree. There is no flaw inherent in the fact that Baldurs gate is not an MMO. If anything, there is flaw in thinking that MMOs have some special programming convention that set them apart from the normal rules of coding. C++ is still C++, is it not?
As for the concessions being reasonable? Maybe for the lazy devs, yeah. They could have used many different approaches to the system, but instead they changed the rules.
As for cleric turning, last I played I rolled 3 HD worth of creatures and one single skeleton ran away, while two others beat on me. I haven't played tabletop since 2005, but isn't a skeleton like 1/3 of a die or something? They should have been pulverized.
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"greater prophets?" Like "Jesus saves, the rest of the party takes 36 points of damage"?
<p align=center><a target=_blank href=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm><img border=0 src=http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg></a></p>;
Your misunderstanding of PnP doesn't translate into a failure by the devs. If you don't know how PnP works, perhaps you should find that out first before you criticize.
THACO??? I mean, come on.
Your misunderstanding of PnP doesn't translate into a failure by the devs. If you don't know how PnP works, perhaps you should find that out first before you criticize.
THACO??? I mean, come on.
Epic fail at reading comprehension, much? What kills me is that this has bothered you enough to mention it a second time, but you never understood what you were replying to the first time. I never said or suggested that THAC0(Spelled T-H-A-C-ZERO, not O BTW) had anything to do with DDO. I said THAC0 had everything to do with complexity of the 2nd Edition ruleset, which it did and does.
I understand how PnP works in all editions since the blue book printing back when elves and dwarves were classes. I have been playing since before half the people on this BB were born. I also understand Palladium and White Wolf products, as well as G.U.R.P.S. and Shadowrun, to name a few. Don't think that your mis-reading of my posts can magically make me not understand the rules. I understand them perfectly, and THAT is why DDO bothers me.
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Something got lost along the way with PnP, the rules were only meant to be a guideline, house rules could be agreed, and the DM if they were worth anything would twist the rules a bit to make the quest fun. When did this breed of accountants start playing the game.
DDO definitely captures the spirit of the D&D game, both through quests and its interpretation of the rules. So it won't appeal to rule bashing zealots, who IMO totally miss the point of the game anyway, but for that I am strangely grateful.
pest post ive read in awhile : )
playing: darkfall
waiting: earthrise
Your misunderstanding of PnP doesn't translate into a failure by the devs. If you don't know how PnP works, perhaps you should find that out first before you criticize.
THACO??? I mean, come on.
Epic fail at reading comprehension, much? What kills me is that this has bothered you enough to mention it a second time, but you never understood what you were replying to the first time. I never said or suggested that THAC0(Spelled T-H-A-C-ZERO, not O BTW) had anything to do with DDO. I said THAC0 had everything to do with complexity of the 2nd Edition ruleset, which it did and does.
I understand how PnP works in all editions since the blue book printing back when elves and dwarves were classes. I have been playing since before half the people on this BB were born. I also understand Palladium and White Wolf products, as well as G.U.R.P.S. and Shadowrun, to name a few. Don't think that your mis-reading of my posts can magically make me not understand the rules. I understand them perfectly, and THAT is why DDO bothers me.
But really it seems you don't. I agree that Domains need to be implimented (not that Clerics really need a boost, they don't, easily the second easiest to solo class right behind arcane casters at high levels).
However if you checked the CR rating the difficulty in turning them aligns perfectly with P&P so following the rules that you have such a great grasp of turning is bahaiving as it should, considering most things are going to be at the upper end of their HD.
Now had you brought up spells based upon HP, such as circle of death, due to the mobs inflated HP's these spells do not work as they are in P&P, but instead you chose to focus on a mechanic that does work per P&P rules, hence the confusion by some of us responding to you.
You said:
"turning mechanics are still a wild and uncalled-for departure from tabletop rules."-Which is dead wrong. The mechanics are identical to tabletop rules.
"Most of the classes are broken, but clerics are the only ones that are so broken that the class in DDO doesn't match the mechanics of the PnP class in any way"-Which is dead wrong again. You give no examples of "broken" classes, other than turning being broken...and it isn't.
"It's like the devs took the 2nd Ed cleric and fudged some numbers and said "here you go."-How is it like this??? They aren't picking a sphere of influence, they aren't limited to blunt weapons, I'm not seeing it AT ALL.
"The game sucks because they are not using D&D mechanics. They are using some arbitrary system to run the whole game. Did I say "run?" I meant "RUIN." Just for future reference"-Again, this is patently false. They are using THE EXACT D&D mechanics for 99% of the game.
So, again, you make these claims, continually referring to archaic rulesets which the game isn't based on, and then don't back them up with any real facts.
You said:
"turning mechanics are still a wild and uncalled-for departure from tabletop rules."-Which is dead wrong. The mechanics are identical to tabletop rules.
"Most of the classes are broken, but clerics are the only ones that are so broken that the class in DDO doesn't match the mechanics of the PnP class in any way"-Which is dead wrong again. You give no examples of "broken" classes, other than turning being broken...and it isn't.
"It's like the devs took the 2nd Ed cleric and fudged some numbers and said "here you go."-How is it like this??? They aren't picking a sphere of influence, they aren't limited to blunt weapons, I'm not seeing it AT ALL.
"The game sucks because they are not using D&D mechanics. They are using some arbitrary system to run the whole game. Did I say "run?" I meant "RUIN." Just for future reference"-Again, this is patently false. They are using THE EXACT D&D mechanics for 99% of the game.
So, again, you make these claims, continually referring to archaic rulesets which the game isn't based on, and then don't back them up with any real facts.
To say they are using the exact D&D mechanics for 99% of the game is incorrect.
Between spell points (which is not a core rule), shortened spell durations, maxed out HP, heroic durability, and melee getting an additional attack per round as well as bonuses for followup attacks rather than reductions I would say the whole basis of the D&D mechanics was fundamentally altered.
Other than the basic HP/stat/save system everything else is somewhat different.
Now I'm not saying it's necessarily all a bad thing that they altered the game to make it fit an MMO model... but that's another topic altogether.
Well, you know as well as I do though Ridd, spell points ARE an alternate system straight out of Wizards. Granted, the BAB bonuses go in reverse, and HPs are fixed...but I'd say almost everything else is pretty much on the same page as the SRD. Which is a huge percentage.
p.s. More importantly, the examples the poster gave in particular WEREN'T out of line with PnP (like turning).
A 14th level paladin gets a BAB of 14 on his first attack in DDO... the same as in PnP, and then it goes up from there (e.g. +14, +14, +19, +24 in DDO vs +14, +9, +4)... they get 4 attacks all as good or better than the first attack in PnP.
Yes turning is basically identical to PnP, but the problem is that all the HD are increased in DDO to the point where you are ineffective at turning running even-level quest.
Funny enough that is one of the best changes they made IMO. I always hated the PnP method, I get 4 attacks, you get 3 attacks, I get initiative so I will have 4 attacks before you get your first. Made no sense at all, and the dropping bonus was just a mechanism to try and hide some of that nastiness.
In DDO they naturally had the opportunity to turn those attacks in to times, so you can have multiple attacks interacting. So if they had stuck with the PnP rules you would either have people running in doing a single attack and running out of combat again, or you get your 4 attacks in the clunky way NWN does it, which seemed as horrible unrealistic as I use to imagine the PnP rules playing out in my head.
What they came up with seems a fair compromise, make the attacks sensible and timed, but don't make the combat silly with hit and run play.
Funny enough that is one of the best changes they made IMO. I always hated the PnP method, I get 4 attacks, you get 3 attacks, I get initiative so I will have 4 attacks before you get your first. Made no sense at all, and the dropping bonus was just a mechanism to try and hide some of that nastiness.
In DDO they naturally had the opportunity to turn those attacks in to times, so you can have multiple attacks interacting. So if they had stuck with the PnP rules you would either have people running in doing a single attack and running out of combat again, or you get your 4 attacks in the clunky way NWN does it, which seemed as horrible unrealistic as I use to imagine the PnP rules playing out in my head.
What they came up with seems a fair compromise, make the attacks sensible and timed, but don't make the combat silly with hit and run play.
I think the devs said the changes they made to the whole combat system in, I believe mod 5 timeframe actually removed the need for the "reverse" sequencing. If you duck out to try to break the attack sequence it would resume exactly where it should based on timing.
I think the biggest problem (and it's not really a problem) with the extra attack and boosted BAB is that it makes PvP go too fast. You are already on 2 second rounds instead of 6 seconds, then you tack on another attack and make it even easier to penetrate AC and that leads to PvP which is basically a gankfest.
On the other hand, the extra attack and boosted BAB also serves to narrow the gap between high level melee and high level casters. A lot of the changes to caster spell durations also served to narrow that gap... otherwise casters would just simply own the game after level 9, even more so than they do now.
So they did, at the same time they changed shot on the run. Still gives an advantage to stay in combat though, while a dropping bonus would give the incentive to do something else until your bonus was up again. I think the other reason for it is people don't like to miss too often, need to feel you are contributing something to the combat. Not so important in PnP which is drawn out and had the DM to enhance the situation, bit more obvious in a MMO.
Can't comment on PvP, D&D to me is all about parties and the mixing of the abilities within the party to overcome obstacles. So GvG should work okay, but PvP was never going to be anything but unbalanced.
IMO they should just remove the bonus altogether... instead of +14, +14, +19, +24 make it +14, +14, +14, +14. Then there would be no advantage at all for moving in or out of combat, and mob ACs could be adjusted downward again which would help the non-melee classes actually be able to hit once in a while.
I could live with that.
I would like to see the mobs rebalanced after removing some of the silly items, such as vorpals. Anything that kills instantly 5% of the time with the amount of attacks we have is just daft.
The balance and risk gets a bit lost as you reach higher levels, would like to see that restored, but think people are too wedded to their shineys now.
For the record I wasn't too bothered about it being D&D, yes I use to play, but it didn't jump out and say this needs to be a MMO. It was the physics, combat and the complexity of build that was available in DDO that hooked me.
I hope Turbine will use the same physics engine and turn it to some other genre, it is a real gem. But that is going OT.
This quote sums up a lot. IT is also the only reason why I play DDO along with many others who I've play with.
Being based upon D&D was one attraction I had to the game. Being I was only familar with AD&D and knew the game was going to be based on a new rule system I knew nothing about (and still know almost nothing of) my only expectation was that of Fun.
You're not going to find this level of dynamics and complexity in many online games. EVE is pretty much the king of the hill and being Star Wars Galaxies hasn't been reverted to the pre-combat-upgrade version there's not much out there to challenge us.
If anyone is upset 'cs any particular rule system isn't exactly how they believed it to be for the pen&paper system then you fail. Seriously, the rule mechanics were ment to exist as a baseline and were NEVER intended to be The End All to a gaming system. Turbine has done very well with modification of a few areas all in the name of Gameplay.
Being mad about DDO for not being 100.00% accurate is like throwing a tantrum when a Dungeon Master didn't roll a die to determine an outcome. Grow up people. DDO is by far one of the best dynamically strategic MMO's currently on the market and it 's a hell of a lot of fun to play.
Just for future reference, you can't argue that it would be hard to convert D20 to an MMO. If you did, you would lose. Plenty of games have used D&D rules, and Baldur's Gate used the THAC0 system, which was 10 times more complex than D20. That is why DDO = Epic fail.
Oh cry more. Seriously, you cannot compare the tabletop game to an MMO, atleast not pre ruleset 4. If you want to play online with DnD rules wait till they release the online client with version 4. Until then move on and shut up. No one cares that you and your miniatures are upset about the differences between TABLE TOP and DESK TOP....
If you cannot see the difference there then you need to stick to the dungeon you call a house and play with your 40 year old friends in tabletop only.
I agree that a re-review would be good just to revisit the game and give a more accurate description of where it is at current to people looking to try it out.
I double checked skeleton HD. Medium skeletons get 1HD, and have 1 HD worth of HPs in DDO. Starting characters in DDO get 30-ish HP. Generously assuming mean rolls of 5 on the HD, PC's in DDO have 5-6 HD. I was assuming that this would be 1/3 of starting HD in DDO, but perhaps not. Maybe I "misinterpreted" the direction they were going when they intentionally raped the rules for starting HP? It's possible. That's what happens when you change things.
And yeah, the changes they made are big enough to impact my opinion of the game. Why can't my fighter charge opponents? Where is the spiked chain? What about Dragonmarked Houses?
"Cry more"- statement made on the internet by a whiner wishing to immediately declare the text which follows as a troll.DDO labels itself as D&D online. THIS is why it fails. As a stand alone MMO, it has improved and become better than say 80% of what's out there, but as "Dungeons and Dragons" Online, it is a waste of my time.
Man, you must have had some crappy DM's then. The quests and world are static. I think it comes close as far as static dungeons, but if the 4th Edition software delivers as promised, you will see the difference. A bland voice reading a script ala Ben Stein is no match for the real thing. In a good D&D campaign, the story evolves and revolves around your personal set of characters. In DDO, the dungeons and plots do not evolve in any way. For this game to capture the feel of PnP, the story MUST be dynamic IMO. Perhaps I expected too much, but if the devs had waited to release DDO until things were ready, it's a goal they could have worked on.Error: 37. Signature not found. Please connect to my server for signature access.