A fair critique? The definition of a troll on MMORPG is one who complains without any solid evidence to back it up. I see you saying a lot of "lazy devs" and "if only they would have done it better" but you give no explanation on how they could have done it better.
In fact, much of what you've said has been factually false (clerics and turning??)
Be more concrete or be a troll -- your choice.
No explanation? I thought it was blatantly obvious that they simply needed to spend 2-3 more years developing the game, and then communicate with WOTC to integrate it with the upcoming 4th edition software and with NWN2's toolset. They needed a few hundred thousand more randomly selected dungeons at all levels, for example, because doing the same exact scripted dungeon 2+ times gets stale on the second run (let alone the 100th time). With DDO, I can't even create a dungeon. False advertising IMO.
The suggestion to spend more time and money is perfectly reasonable, considering that the game is called Dungeons and Dragons Online. That's a big recurring problem with D&D. Any time they make a side project, they fail to invest the proper time, money, quality, and budget necessary. DDO is kind of meh, but it could have and should have been jaw-dropping.
And yeah, I am right about the clerics as far as I'm concerned. Maybe some people choose to ignore characters getting 3 HD in the game. I don't.
As far as WOW being more accurate, it is. It accurately represents the same kind of fluidity I experience at a good D&D session. DDO represents the kind of session you'd have with a bad DM who focuses more on his own dungeon designs than on actually giving the players something to do.
1. Like all other MMORPGs they are adding and will add more content to DDO. EQ2 came out and I repeated the same areas over and over and over again. In fact, in DDO, I the noob area, now on my 4th character, I am doing new dungeons I have never yet done.
2. Explain Fluidity in wow and all other mmorpg. You enter a 'dungeon' in WoW. you see an Elite Mob. You try to make sure you just pull that ONE mob even though there are 5 right next to it and try to beat it up - rinse and repeat. Same goes for out-door areas. In DDO, with a good party, you are running the Dungeon, more like an action-adventure. You cannot pull selected encounter since the mobs all respond to aggression (and will bang on gongs to call for help) - DDO is as Fluid a game I have ever seen online - ever! Repetition in dungeons builds speed in game play and trying to solve the puzzle. No other mmorpg has the same type of combat and questing system in place and if you want to argue that please do by providing examples – again Proof or STFU
3, You still did not even attempt to explain how Wow is is more DDO - fluid has nothing to do with it. Game mechanics, class system, etc..?? what about that. Your really just full of it and like to be contrary instead of trying to offer anything that resembles an argument. If your going to mae a point, back it up!
4. Clerics and other classes - what’s your point about this?. The class system in DDO IS DnD - clerics are not just healers, they are true warriors that can fight, heal and cast offensive spells. Wizards and sorc own the end game as they do in DnD and are not relegated to just casting damage spells. in particular the DDO wizard which has so many utility spells. Crowd control, buffing, etc... I am amazed at how true to the game DDO really is to DnD. In short, We have helped you hi-jack this thread and it has provided little in the way of progression of a true argument. But at least you are allowing us to point out the Strengths in DDO (one of the reasons you are not responding to me directly but then again, I except nothing less from a TROLL). DDO is DnD – no questions. Watching the monk video and having them reference oriental adventures sent a thrill up my spine – how cool is that?
After playing so many games, name one game other then EVE that allows you to create such a diverse number of character builds is almost mind boggling. Bottom line, go haunt the EVE forums, they can eat you for lunch there to or just stick to WoW. I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt but it’s a wasted effort since you are unwilling to have a coherent debate.
To all others who are curious about DDO, if you are curious enough trust me, its worth trying. I stayed away after release and am so happy to have finally tried it. You will not be disappointed.
Since you will not explain why Wow is more DnD. I will make my argument for why DDO is DnD. : )
DDO is not WoW. I think we can agree on that point; Two very different games. WoWs appeal is a phenomenon like EQ. I respect that. It is a great business game model and it works. And it is fun to play.
However, WoW is not my type of game. The largest reason is the nature of the quest and xp system. You grind to make a living and progress from level 1 to 80. The primary questing and xp system is based on quests to collect items, invade / kill a number of open area mob clusters or killing random monsters.
The environment does not seem fully logical. Mobs crisscrossing each other, walking in defined patters and areas.
Even fighting similar creature groups in ‘their’ territory like a mine, dungeon, castle; the strategy is to pull single mobs and prevent adjacent mobs from aggroing. Rinse Repeat, Rinse Repeat. You can not interact with your environment.
This is the old EQ model that not many games have tried to or failed to modify. It has been refined to its perfection with WoW.
The exception is running dungeons in WoW. These areas are instanced and have direct, difficult objectives. People repeat them often in Wow. Right? In-particular high end raids? They have the best loot, high xp.
DDO is entirely like that. From the moment you enter the game you are running a quest-dungeon. You gain bonus xp for interacting with the environment; breaking objects, disarming traps, finding secret doors, solving puzzles. You get xp from completing the quests goals. You can pick up goals within the dungeon for more xp. Xp for killing individual mobs is non-existent for 90% of mobs with the exception of some bosses. You do get an xp bonus for agression and killing most of the mobs in a quest.
This is the ‘grind’ in DDO and this is the way PnP works. You can and do xp from killing mobs but in order for players to progress in a campaign they pick up xp from doing and completing the quest it self.
In short:
DDO uses the DnD xp system. Its based on quest reward and not random monsters killing and collection quests. I personally think they should add xp rewards for exceptional play by an individual players but I digress.
You run dungeons and you feel like you are in a dungeon. You enter other quests from within quests and you feel like you are ‘far’ from civilization.
Quests happen with a particular speed that is hard to describe because I have never seen that in another mmorpg. Its quick, but careful and requires strategy.
The collection ‘questing’ in DnD is brilliant. You don’t get collection quests since the collector is more like a ‘vendor’. You give him the items that you find in quests and he will create and give you an item in return; potions scrolls, wands, etc... I use 90% of the items I get from collecting items, sell or horde the rest for an alt.
I can go through the character builds and playability and compare that to DnD, DDO and WoW but this is long enough and I think that is apparent.
I double checked skeleton HD. Medium skeletons get 1HD, and have 1 HD worth of HPs in DDO. Starting characters in DDO get 30-ish HP. Generously assuming mean rolls of 5 on the HD, PC's in DDO have 5-6 HD. I was assuming that this would be 1/3 of starting HD in DDO, but perhaps not. Maybe I "misinterpreted" the direction they were going when they intentionally raped the rules for starting HP? It's possible. That's what happens when you change things. And yeah, the changes they made are big enough to impact my opinion of the game. Why can't my fighter charge opponents? Where is the spiked chain? What about Dragonmarked Houses?
look in your feats... you will see a feat called "heroic character' or some such, which grants you 20hp that is why your character seems to have more hp than it should. What works in P&P won't work in an MMORPG no way would characters running around with 7-10hp work in an online MMORPG that anyone would play... Turbine saw this and modified things a bit to ease the starting life of characters.
Originally posted by TedDanson
Oh cry more. Seriously, you cannot compare the tabletop game to an MMO, atleast not pre ruleset 4. If you want to play online with DnD rules wait till they release the online client with version 4. Until then move on and shut up. No one cares that you and your miniatures are upset about the differences between TABLE TOP and DESK TOP....
If you cannot see the difference there then you need to stick to the dungeon you call a house and play with your 40 year old friends in tabletop only.
"Cry more"- statement made on the internet by a whiner wishing to immediately declare the text which follows as a troll.
DDO labels itself as D&D online. THIS is why it fails. As a stand alone MMO, it has improved and become better than say 80% of what's out there, but as "Dungeons and Dragons" Online, it is a waste of my time.
Then don't play. Even in Pen and Paper if you EVER bothered to read the DMG you'd see one of the first rules is that the rules are open to interpretation/modification by the DM. Turbine has modified the rules a bit but, overall, it's still D&D... don't like it Find another DM. But saying it's not D&D is just silly.
DDO definitely captures the spirit of the D&D game, both through quests and its interpretation of the rules.
Man, you must have had some crappy DM's then. The quests and world are static. I think it comes close as far as static dungeons, but if the 4th Edition software delivers as promised, you will see the difference. A bland voice reading a script ala Ben Stein is no match for the real thing. In a good D&D campaign, the story evolves and revolves around your personal set of characters. In DDO, the dungeons and plots do not evolve in any way. For this game to capture the feel of PnP, the story MUST be dynamic IMO. Perhaps I expected too much, but if the devs had waited to release DDO until things were ready, it's a goal they could have worked on.
The 4th edition software looks nice but the graphics in it are ass. Also there is still the requirement that you have to get a static group of folks together (your normal party) and the DM, and all have time to do a dungeon at the same time. The beauty of DDO (for me anyway) is that I can hop on whenever I have 45 minutes or more free and get some D&D Goodness in. My lifestyle doesn't allow me static blocks of 3-6hrs to play anymore. When it did I had a regular group of folks that got together and played AD&D (House mod of 2nd ed, none of us could be arsed to buy the 3.0 and 3.5 or even the 2.5 rules... got sick of forking out money for new books every time TSR/WOTC decided it was time for us to buy new ones)
Also, there is no way for an MMORPG to be sufficiently 'dynamic' to mimic a live DM who can modify the adventure on the fly. As to whether the content is dynamic enough? If you got together with friends 1 night a week and did 1 dungeon a week like you would when playing pen and paper? It'd take you 6+ years to play every quest in DDO... I'd say that's pretty dynamic. (not to mention by then there'd be more new quests (enough that you'd never once repeat one).
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Comments
No explanation? I thought it was blatantly obvious that they simply needed to spend 2-3 more years developing the game, and then communicate with WOTC to integrate it with the upcoming 4th edition software and with NWN2's toolset. They needed a few hundred thousand more randomly selected dungeons at all levels, for example, because doing the same exact scripted dungeon 2+ times gets stale on the second run (let alone the 100th time). With DDO, I can't even create a dungeon. False advertising IMO.
The suggestion to spend more time and money is perfectly reasonable, considering that the game is called Dungeons and Dragons Online. That's a big recurring problem with D&D. Any time they make a side project, they fail to invest the proper time, money, quality, and budget necessary. DDO is kind of meh, but it could have and should have been jaw-dropping.
And yeah, I am right about the clerics as far as I'm concerned. Maybe some people choose to ignore characters getting 3 HD in the game. I don't.
As far as WOW being more accurate, it is. It accurately represents the same kind of fluidity I experience at a good D&D session. DDO represents the kind of session you'd have with a bad DM who focuses more on his own dungeon designs than on actually giving the players something to do.
1. Like all other MMORPGs they are adding and will add more content to DDO. EQ2 came out and I repeated the same areas over and over and over again. In fact, in DDO, I the noob area, now on my 4th character, I am doing new dungeons I have never yet done.
2. Explain Fluidity in wow and all other mmorpg. You enter a 'dungeon' in WoW. you see an Elite Mob. You try to make sure you just pull that ONE mob even though there are 5 right next to it and try to beat it up - rinse and repeat. Same goes for out-door areas. In DDO, with a good party, you are running the Dungeon, more like an action-adventure. You cannot pull selected encounter since the mobs all respond to aggression (and will bang on gongs to call for help) - DDO is as Fluid a game I have ever seen online - ever! Repetition in dungeons builds speed in game play and trying to solve the puzzle. No other mmorpg has the same type of combat and questing system in place and if you want to argue that please do by providing examples – again Proof or STFU
3, You still did not even attempt to explain how Wow is is more DDO - fluid has nothing to do with it. Game mechanics, class system, etc..?? what about that. Your really just full of it and like to be contrary instead of trying to offer anything that resembles an argument. If your going to mae a point, back it up!
4. Clerics and other classes - what’s your point about this?. The class system in DDO IS DnD - clerics are not just healers, they are true warriors that can fight, heal and cast offensive spells. Wizards and sorc own the end game as they do in DnD and are not relegated to just casting damage spells. in particular the DDO wizard which has so many utility spells. Crowd control, buffing, etc... I am amazed at how true to the game DDO really is to DnD. In short, We have helped you hi-jack this thread and it has provided little in the way of progression of a true argument. But at least you are allowing us to point out the Strengths in DDO (one of the reasons you are not responding to me directly but then again, I except nothing less from a TROLL). DDO is DnD – no questions. Watching the monk video and having them reference oriental adventures sent a thrill up my spine – how cool is that?
After playing so many games, name one game other then EVE that allows you to create such a diverse number of character builds is almost mind boggling. Bottom line, go haunt the EVE forums, they can eat you for lunch there to or just stick to WoW. I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt but it’s a wasted effort since you are unwilling to have a coherent debate.
To all others who are curious about DDO, if you are curious enough trust me, its worth trying. I stayed away after release and am so happy to have finally tried it. You will not be disappointed.
Lol I hope thats a joke
Lol I hope thats a joke
HEY! Wasn't my statement, he claimed that WoW offered a truer D&D experience than DDO did!
O sorry Vincenz
Souldrainer
Since you will not explain why Wow is more DnD. I will make my argument for why DDO is DnD. : )
DDO is not WoW. I think we can agree on that point; Two very different games. WoWs appeal is a phenomenon like EQ. I respect that. It is a great business game model and it works. And it is fun to play.
However, WoW is not my type of game. The largest reason is the nature of the quest and xp system. You grind to make a living and progress from level 1 to 80. The primary questing and xp system is based on quests to collect items, invade / kill a number of open area mob clusters or killing random monsters.
The environment does not seem fully logical. Mobs crisscrossing each other, walking in defined patters and areas.
Even fighting similar creature groups in ‘their’ territory like a mine, dungeon, castle; the strategy is to pull single mobs and prevent adjacent mobs from aggroing. Rinse Repeat, Rinse Repeat. You can not interact with your environment.
This is the old EQ model that not many games have tried to or failed to modify. It has been refined to its perfection with WoW.
The exception is running dungeons in WoW. These areas are instanced and have direct, difficult objectives. People repeat them often in Wow. Right? In-particular high end raids? They have the best loot, high xp.
DDO is entirely like that. From the moment you enter the game you are running a quest-dungeon. You gain bonus xp for interacting with the environment; breaking objects, disarming traps, finding secret doors, solving puzzles. You get xp from completing the quests goals. You can pick up goals within the dungeon for more xp. Xp for killing individual mobs is non-existent for 90% of mobs with the exception of some bosses. You do get an xp bonus for agression and killing most of the mobs in a quest.
This is the ‘grind’ in DDO and this is the way PnP works. You can and do xp from killing mobs but in order for players to progress in a campaign they pick up xp from doing and completing the quest it self.
In short:
DDO uses the DnD xp system. Its based on quest reward and not random monsters killing and collection quests. I personally think they should add xp rewards for exceptional play by an individual players but I digress.
You run dungeons and you feel like you are in a dungeon. You enter other quests from within quests and you feel like you are ‘far’ from civilization.
Quests happen with a particular speed that is hard to describe because I have never seen that in another mmorpg. Its quick, but careful and requires strategy.
The collection ‘questing’ in DnD is brilliant. You don’t get collection quests since the collector is more like a ‘vendor’. You give him the items that you find in quests and he will create and give you an item in return; potions scrolls, wands, etc... I use 90% of the items I get from collecting items, sell or horde the rest for an alt.
I can go through the character builds and playability and compare that to DnD, DDO and WoW but this is long enough and I think that is apparent.
look in your feats... you will see a feat called "heroic character' or some such, which grants you 20hp that is why your character seems to have more hp than it should. What works in P&P won't work in an MMORPG no way would characters running around with 7-10hp work in an online MMORPG that anyone would play... Turbine saw this and modified things a bit to ease the starting life of characters.
"Cry more"- statement made on the internet by a whiner wishing to immediately declare the text which follows as a troll.
DDO labels itself as D&D online. THIS is why it fails. As a stand alone MMO, it has improved and become better than say 80% of what's out there, but as "Dungeons and Dragons" Online, it is a waste of my time.
Then don't play. Even in Pen and Paper if you EVER bothered to read the DMG you'd see one of the first rules is that the rules are open to interpretation/modification by the DM. Turbine has modified the rules a bit but, overall, it's still D&D... don't like it Find another DM. But saying it's not D&D is just silly.
Man, you must have had some crappy DM's then. The quests and world are static. I think it comes close as far as static dungeons, but if the 4th Edition software delivers as promised, you will see the difference. A bland voice reading a script ala Ben Stein is no match for the real thing. In a good D&D campaign, the story evolves and revolves around your personal set of characters. In DDO, the dungeons and plots do not evolve in any way. For this game to capture the feel of PnP, the story MUST be dynamic IMO. Perhaps I expected too much, but if the devs had waited to release DDO until things were ready, it's a goal they could have worked on.
The 4th edition software looks nice but the graphics in it are ass. Also there is still the requirement that you have to get a static group of folks together (your normal party) and the DM, and all have time to do a dungeon at the same time. The beauty of DDO (for me anyway) is that I can hop on whenever I have 45 minutes or more free and get some D&D Goodness in. My lifestyle doesn't allow me static blocks of 3-6hrs to play anymore. When it did I had a regular group of folks that got together and played AD&D (House mod of 2nd ed, none of us could be arsed to buy the 3.0 and 3.5 or even the 2.5 rules... got sick of forking out money for new books every time TSR/WOTC decided it was time for us to buy new ones)
Also, there is no way for an MMORPG to be sufficiently 'dynamic' to mimic a live DM who can modify the adventure on the fly. As to whether the content is dynamic enough? If you got together with friends 1 night a week and did 1 dungeon a week like you would when playing pen and paper? It'd take you 6+ years to play every quest in DDO... I'd say that's pretty dynamic. (not to mention by then there'd be more new quests (enough that you'd never once repeat one).
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas