And yeah, the changes they made are big enough to impact my opinion of the game. Why can't my fighter charge opponents? Where is the spiked chain? What about Dragonmarked Houses?
THIS is why it fails. As a stand alone MMO, it has improved and become better than say 80% of what's out there, but as "Dungeons and Dragons" Online, it is a waste of my time.
The quests and world are static. I think it comes close as far as static dungeons. A bland voice reading a script ala Ben Stein is no match for the real thing. In DDO, the dungeons and plots do not evolve in any way."
Anyone remember someone they met who used to brag about knowing D&D rules like the back of their hands to gloat about all their fictitious accomplishments just to find out they roleplayed the game all alone? Those were the ones attempted to present an Alpha-mindset to "how the game is going to be played" to rarely, if ever, be invited back for another session.
I double checked skeleton HD. Medium skeletons get 1HD, and have 1 HD worth of HPs in DDO. Starting characters in DDO get 30-ish HP. Generously assuming mean rolls of 5 on the HD, PC's in DDO have 5-6 HD. I was assuming that this would be 1/3 of starting HD in DDO, but perhaps not. Maybe I "misinterpreted" the direction they were going when they intentionally raped the rules for starting HP? It's possible. That's what happens when you change things. And yeah, the changes they made are big enough to impact my opinion of the game. Why can't my fighter charge opponents? Where is the spiked chain? What about Dragonmarked Houses?
Originally posted by TedDanson
Oh cry more. Seriously, you cannot compare the tabletop game to an MMO, atleast not pre ruleset 4. If you want to play online with DnD rules wait till they release the online client with version 4. Until then move on and shut up. No one cares that you and your miniatures are upset about the differences between TABLE TOP and DESK TOP....
If you cannot see the difference there then you need to stick to the dungeon you call a house and play with your 40 year old friends in tabletop only.
"Cry more"- statement made on the internet by a whiner wishing to immediately declare the text which follows as a troll.
DDO labels itself as D&D online. THIS is why it fails. As a stand alone MMO, it has improved and become better than say 80% of what's out there, but as "Dungeons and Dragons" Online, it is a waste of my time.
DDO definitely captures the spirit of the D&D game, both through quests and its interpretation of the rules.
Man, you must have had some crappy DM's then. The quests and world are static. I think it comes close as far as static dungeons, but if the 4th Edition software delivers as promised, you will see the difference. A bland voice reading a script ala Ben Stein is no match for the real thing. In a good D&D campaign, the story evolves and revolves around your personal set of characters. In DDO, the dungeons and plots do not evolve in any way. For this game to capture the feel of PnP, the story MUST be dynamic IMO. Perhaps I expected too much, but if the devs had waited to release DDO until things were ready, it's a goal they could have worked on.
If you are so adamant about the table top rules, and so staunchly against any changes then why don't you just continue to play the tabletop game? Honestly, all trolling aside, whats the point of coming here and complaining about it? Just play the table top and get the exact experience you are saying DDO lacks. Once they release the online client with ruleset 4 you'll be all set to play the closest thing to an MMO version of the actual PnP ruleset and life will be as it should. Until then, do yourself a favor and play it the way you enjoy it, on the table.
I double checked skeleton HD. Medium skeletons get 1HD, and have 1 HD worth of HPs in DDO. Starting characters in DDO get 30-ish HP. Generously assuming mean rolls of 5 on the HD, PC's in DDO have 5-6 HD. I was assuming that this would be 1/3 of starting HD in DDO, but perhaps not. Maybe I "misinterpreted" the direction they were going when they intentionally raped the rules for starting HP? It's possible. That's what happens when you change things.
PC's start at 1 HD like anyone else, they just get a 20 HP "Heroic Durability" boost. There are no rolls on the HD, you get the max every level.
"intentionally raped" is a bit strong don't you think? The reason the 20 extra HP was added was so you didn't have your moderate CON wizards randomly dying because a single kobold got a lucky shot off.
Originally posted by Souldrainer
And yeah, the changes they made are big enough to impact my opinion of the game. Why can't my fighter charge opponents? Where is the spiked chain? What about Dragonmarked Houses?
They only had so much time to develop the game, so they chose not to implement some rules so that they could get the game out on time/on budget.
Spiked chains, polearms, spears are all missing... they had to cut corners on development time and animation is expensive. Dragonmarks were added to the game almost a year ago.
Originally posted by Souldrainer
DDO labels itself as D&D online. THIS is why it fails. As a stand alone MMO, it has improved and become better than say 80% of what's out there, but as "Dungeons and Dragons" Online, it is a waste of my time.
Yes there are differences between DDO & PnP. But DDO is still the most accurate representation of D&D in a MMO out there. Oh wait... it's the only one.
Give it time, it will continue to get better. They even fixed evasion not too long ago. They had to or Monks would have been totally broken.
Originally posted by Souldrainer
DDO definitely captures the spirit of the D&D game, both through quests and its interpretation of the rules.
Man, you must have had some crappy DM's then. The quests and world are static. I think it comes close as far as static dungeons, but if the 4th Edition software delivers as promised, you will see the difference. A bland voice reading a script ala Ben Stein is no match for the real thing. In a good D&D campaign, the story evolves and revolves around your personal set of characters. In DDO, the dungeons and plots do not evolve in any way. For this game to capture the feel of PnP, the story MUST be dynamic IMO. Perhaps I expected too much, but if the devs had waited to release DDO until things were ready, it's a goal they could have worked on.
They are working on that as well. The world is starting to change. They even blew up the markeplace tent a couple weeks ago.
Edit: trying to fix the "Enhanced Editor"'s buchering of quotes.
"Why can't my fighter charge opponents? Where is the spiked chain? What about Dragonmarked Houses?"
LOL! Really? The whole game is broken because you can't charge with a spiked chain? BTW...dragon marks have been in the game for quite a while now...
Charging? Yeah, it definitely breaks the game for me. Considering I can do it in WOW and not DDO, it's a gaping flaw. As for dragonmarks, oh. While the game has improved a lot since launch, I still find it lacking in a lot of features. For every feature they have added, they have still left one out even after all this time. Besides, 4th edition comes out in 3 months. They aren't even planning to revamp DDO fo 4th edition, are they?
Speaking of which, I still do play tabletop games when I have the time, and DDO still does not compare. Why am I slagging it? Well, i am kind of peeved. DDO could be the best MMO out. There is a lot of potential in the license and the gameplay options it offers. If done properly, it would offer more variety than DDO, NWN, or any other CRPG to date. Instead, we get a medieval MMO with great dungeons but extremely limited character options. In short, DDO comes up.... short.
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Actually, they're already talking about 4th edition, and have been all week at Connect.
BTW, anyone who can say DDO has "extremely limited character options" in comparison to ANY other game on the market, isn't giving a realistic review, IMO.
Between race, skills, stats, feats, enhancements, and multiclassing options I haven't seen another MMO even close.
I double checked skeleton HD. Medium skeletons get 1HD, and have 1 HD worth of HPs in DDO. Starting characters in DDO get 30-ish HP. Generously assuming mean rolls of 5 on the HD, PC's in DDO have 5-6 HD. I was assuming that this would be 1/3 of starting HD in DDO, but perhaps not. Maybe I "misinterpreted" the direction they were going when they intentionally raped the rules for starting HP? It's possible. That's what happens when you change things. And yeah, the changes they made are big enough to impact my opinion of the game. Why can't my fighter charge opponents? Where is the spiked chain? What about Dragonmarked Houses?
Originally posted by TedDanson
Oh cry more. Seriously, you cannot compare the tabletop game to an MMO, atleast not pre ruleset 4. If you want to play online with DnD rules wait till they release the online client with version 4. Until then move on and shut up. No one cares that you and your miniatures are upset about the differences between TABLE TOP and DESK TOP....
If you cannot see the difference there then you need to stick to the dungeon you call a house and play with your 40 year old friends in tabletop only.
"Cry more"- statement made on the internet by a whiner wishing to immediately declare the text which follows as a troll.
DDO labels itself as D&D online. THIS is why it fails. As a stand alone MMO, it has improved and become better than say 80% of what's out there, but as "Dungeons and Dragons" Online, it is a waste of my time.
DDO definitely captures the spirit of the D&D game, both through quests and its interpretation of the rules.
Man, you must have had some crappy DM's then. The quests and world are static. I think it comes close as far as static dungeons, but if the 4th Edition software delivers as promised, you will see the difference. A bland voice reading a script ala Ben Stein is no match for the real thing. In a good D&D campaign, the story evolves and revolves around your personal set of characters. In DDO, the dungeons and plots do not evolve in any way. For this game to capture the feel of PnP, the story MUST be dynamic IMO. Perhaps I expected too much, but if the devs had waited to release DDO until things were ready, it's a goal they could have worked on.
Souldrainer, your aptly name. Your one of those-Troll-energy-drain people in life maybe?
Anyway, if you need to troll, start another thread.
No MMO does come close to internal vision and imagination provided by table-top. If only!
However, DDO does create the reality of DnD better then any other MMO yet. EQ2, WoW, etc... don't come close and I have played both extensively. I liked them but running around killing mobs for collection quests and etc... has so many things wrong with there dynamic. EQ1, now that was a game!
For DDO - The speed, action, strategy was more then you could hope for with this game. The classes really do feel and remind me of PnP. You are entitled your opinion but well, your wrong.
I resubscribed after more than a year and I'm having a blast these past days. DDO is imho the perfect example of how should a PVE based fantasy MMO work. The character development is better than in vast majority of MMOs I have seen, of course still lacking when compared to PnP version, but an online game and PnP environment are very hard to compare in terms of freedom. Combat is excellent, graphics still nice and fresh yet very swift and it also seems a lot of content is being pushed out. Seems to me I might stay for a while. All and all, it just feels fun all the time, which is a nice change after so many grindy MMOs where it feels like work.
Codemasters should make something akin the station pass tbh, since they are going to publish JG:E too, it would cover my MMO needs by DDO as the perfect example of PVE fantasy game and JG:E on exactly the opposite side of the spectrum, and LOTRO just thrown in for the sake of it.
Subscribtions: EVE, SWTOR WOW, WAR, DDO, VG, AOC, COV, FFXI, GW, RFO, Aion +plenty of F2P, betas, trials
Female Dwarf player: WOW, VG, WAR, DDO . Due to the recent economic crisis and spending cuts the light at the end of the tunnel was turned off. Sincerely, God.
Originally posted by dtal311 your aptly name. Your one of those-Troll-energy-drain people in life maybe? Anyway, if you need to troll, start another thread. No MMO does come close to internal vision and imagination provided by table-top. If only! However, DDO does create the reality of DnD better then any other MMO yet. EQ2, WoW, etc... don't come close and I have played both extensively. I liked them but running around killing mobs for collection quests and etc... has so many things wrong with there dynamic. EQ1, now that was a game! For DDO - The speed, action, strategy was more then you could hope for with this game. The classes really do feel and remind me of PnP. You are entitled your opinion but well, your wrong. Go away! Thanks
I disagree. For one, not all dissenting opinions are trolls. I am making a fair critique of the game and the suggestion made about it. Secondly, WOW actually comes closer to D&D than DDO does. It's sad, but true.
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I disagree. For one, not all dissenting opinions are trolls. I am making a fair critique of the game and the suggestion made about it. Secondly, WOW actually comes closer to D&D than DDO does. It's sad, but true.
I play and enjoy both DDO & WoW, and I don't comprehend how you can make that statement. Both games have their good points, but WoW being more like D&D than DDO is not one of them.
So a few rules are missing, give it some time. They have been (correctly IMO) focusing on adding content and levels... that has been and is DDO's weakest point.
Unfortunately DDO's developers don't have the $100+ million per month rolling in to fund their development. I think they are doing a great job with what they have.
your aptly name. Your one of those-Troll-energy-drain people in life maybe?
Anyway, if you need to troll, start another thread.
No MMO does come close to internal vision and imagination provided by table-top. If only!
However, DDO does create the reality of DnD better then any other MMO yet. EQ2, WoW, etc... don't come close and I have played both extensively. I liked them but running around killing mobs for collection quests and etc... has so many things wrong with there dynamic. EQ1, now that was a game!
For DDO - The speed, action, strategy was more then you could hope for with this game. The classes really do feel and remind me of PnP. You are entitled your opinion but well, your wrong.
Go away!
Thanks
I disagree. For one, not all dissenting opinions are trolls. I am making a fair critique of the game and the suggestion made about it. Secondly, WOW actually comes closer to D&D than DDO does. It's sad, but true.
Yup you just lost all credibility there.
Apparently WoW snuck in feats? Ability to place stat points where I want to? A d20 based system while I wasn;t looking?
DDO definitely captures the spirit of the D&D game, both through quests and its interpretation of the rules.
Man, you must have had some crappy DM's then. The quests and world are static. I think it comes close as far as static dungeons, but if the 4th Edition software delivers as promised, you will see the difference. A bland voice reading a script ala Ben Stein is no match for the real thing. In a good D&D campaign, the story evolves and revolves around your personal set of characters. In DDO, the dungeons and plots do not evolve in any way. For this game to capture the feel of PnP, the story MUST be dynamic IMO. Perhaps I expected too much, but if the devs had waited to release DDO until things were ready, it's a goal they could have worked on.
Excellent DM's actually, I agree they weren't anal about the rules, but we had a blast.
If you expected the AI in a computer game to be comparable to a human DM and adapt the story on the fly to your reactions to any given situation, you are really living in cloud cuckoo land.
I disagree. For one, not all dissenting opinions are trolls. I am making a fair critique of the game and the suggestion made about it. Secondly, WOW actually comes closer to D&D than DDO does. It's sad, but true.
And to think I actually wasted my time responding to your post, at least that clears it up that it was just trolling all along.
And please keep in mind to others, I want support for a re-review of DDO as a great MMORPG. So, while I am 'feeding the troll (sorry Souldrainer, you are entitled to your thoughts but...) please keep a support thread going as well.
SO it would seem that the Troll is silenced. Can't prove your claims about WoW being more like DnD then? Thank you. Aside from that, my next question to anyone reading these forums, is do you think the Monk class will be weak, right on or maybe over-powered? Peavce
IMO Monks will be one of those classes like Rogues and Rangers where they will run the gamut from totally pathetic all the way to completely uber.
It will probably also become a good splash class for anyone who can build without armor... WIS based AC bonus + Evasion for 2 levels of Monk.
The flaw in your argument is plain. Baldur's Gate != MMO. The consessions made seem exceedingly reasonable. Wizard? How boring would it be to have only a few spells to cast per day. That mechanic only barely works in P&P because you can skip a lot of down time. You can't fast forward time in an MMO, at least not a persistant world MMO. Oh but you could just have the Wizard tag along for the first four or 10 levels until the class begins to shine. Again, how boring is that for the player in an MMO? The consession to ranks in leveling also makes sense. If the player characters are going to gain 20 levels as in P&P, then that level advancement in an MMO would see you gaining a level about once every month (because 20lvl is the typical maximum of most D&D campaigns). So there you have a month of gaining no rewards, no advancement for your character. Again boring. And if you're playing a P&P version of a wizard in this set up? Damn, that's boring ^2. So Turbine decides to implement ranks so that rewards and character advancement can happen more frequently. Ranks also gives the game more longevity as there are effectively more levels to gain. Hmmm, guess who else had this same thought? Yep, WoTC is implementing something very similar with 4th edition. Oh, and the Wizard in DDO? Yep, that's essentially the Warlock you find in splat books--you know, WoTC's version of a wizard that can do at least SOMETHING every round of combat. Really, the complaints of DDO as compared to the P&P version have zero merit. As compared to solo single player games, the complaints have only marginally more merit.
The problem is that everything is inflated.
All mobs past the Harbor have insane amounts of HP... HP to make up for the fact that all heroes have an extra 20 HP plus all your hit dice are maxxed out.
Why is this a big deal? Because your 6 HD mob now has 48+ HP, and your 6d6 fireball is only doing 6*3.5 = 21 HP. OK no problem, let's add enhancements to increase the amount of damge the fireball does by 10%-40%. Lets add weapon enchantments which also do this. Lets give wizards bunches of spell points so he can cast the 3 fireballs to take down that mob instead of the 1 that would have taken him down in PnP. Oops now melee is underpowered, lets boost their follow up attacks by +5 and +10 rather than decrease them like in PnP. And it continued to escalate from there.
So while yes it is all done to try to make it play better as a MMO, a lot of it just got out of hand and is bloating out of all the stats to the point where it starts to resemble something not entirely like PnP. They just kept adding stuff to fix things until it balanced rather than trying to keep as much stuff as possible the same and only fix what absolutely had to be fixed.
Can they fix it now? I don't think so. They've finally got something that is moderately balanced... they can't go back now, it would be like starting over.
The HP bloating isn't a big deal. At all. It is meant to make the game easier to balance. Can you imagine a character whose h.p. rolls ended up being a few 1s and 2s in a row? Good bye charcter and restart. In the PnP world, the DM can adjust for this poor fortune, and the character can survive to be quite interesting.
At one time I used to play in a PnP campaign in which HP were blind -- DM kept track. We could have had 5 or 100 hp...didn't matter. HP is an abstract system, and the granularity of it can be malliable. That is all Turbine did -- made the h.p. more granular. And guess what, 4th Edition is doing something similar, as did Star War Saga edition. You start with a greater number of h.p. than simply your d8 or d10.
Fix it? There's no need to fix it. Nothing is broken.
_____________________________ Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Cerion, I disagree. There is no flaw inherent in the fact that Baldurs gate is not an MMO. If anything, there is flaw in thinking that MMOs have some special programming convention that set them apart from the normal rules of coding. C++ is still C++, is it not?
As for the concessions being reasonable? Maybe for the lazy devs, yeah. They could have used many different approaches to the system, but instead they changed the rules.
Right...because programming languages are all that matter when designing games...ignorant much? Nice attempt at a strawman argument though...wait, actually it was a failure even in that regard.
How many of you re-rolled your Baldur's Gate character to get a 50 point build? Yeah, I thought so.
So you claim there are many different approaches the devs could have used. Then address my points about how to make the Wizard/Sorcerer not boring to play in an online persistant world. Any copy of the D&D spell system to an MMO is so obvious a failure, if you don't see that then there is no hope.
In fact, why don't you address the points of the game rather than attacking the devs. You say you disagree, but give no concrete reasons why your opinion should be valued.
I've been playing D&D for 15 years. A friend that I play with has been at it for 20+, is a game designer, and writes game articles on D&D. We love the DDO adaptation
_____________________________ Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
your aptly name. Your one of those-Troll-energy-drain people in life maybe?
Anyway, if you need to troll, start another thread.
No MMO does come close to internal vision and imagination provided by table-top. If only!
However, DDO does create the reality of DnD better then any other MMO yet. EQ2, WoW, etc... don't come close and I have played both extensively. I liked them but running around killing mobs for collection quests and etc... has so many things wrong with there dynamic. EQ1, now that was a game!
For DDO - The speed, action, strategy was more then you could hope for with this game. The classes really do feel and remind me of PnP. You are entitled your opinion but well, your wrong.
Go away!
Thanks
I disagree. For one, not all dissenting opinions are trolls. I am making a fair critique of the game and the suggestion made about it. Secondly, WOW actually comes closer to D&D than DDO does. It's sad, but true.
A fair critique? The definition of a troll on MMORPG is one who complains without any solid evidence to back it up. I see you saying a lot of "lazy devs" and "if only they would have done it better" but you give no explanation on how they could have done it better.
In fact, much of what you've said has been factually false (clerics and turning??)
Be more concrete or be a troll -- your choice.
_____________________________ Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Originally posted by Cerion A fair critique? The definition of a troll on MMORPG is one who complains without any solid evidence to back it up. I see you saying a lot of "lazy devs" and "if only they would have done it better" but you give no explanation on how they could have done it better. In fact, much of what you've said has been factually false (clerics and turning??) Be more concrete or be a troll -- your choice.
No explanation? I thought it was blatantly obvious that they simply needed to spend 2-3 more years developing the game, and then communicate with WOTC to integrate it with the upcoming 4th edition software and with NWN2's toolset. They needed a few hundred thousand more randomly selected dungeons at all levels, for example, because doing the same exact scripted dungeon 2+ times gets stale on the second run (let alone the 100th time). With DDO, I can't even create a dungeon. False advertising IMO.
The suggestion to spend more time and money is perfectly reasonable, considering that the game is called Dungeons and Dragons Online. That's a big recurring problem with D&D. Any time they make a side project, they fail to invest the proper time, money, quality, and budget necessary. DDO is kind of meh, but it could have and should have been jaw-dropping.
And yeah, I am right about the clerics as far as I'm concerned. Maybe some people choose to ignore characters getting 3 HD in the game. I don't.
As far as WOW being more accurate, it is. It accurately represents the same kind of fluidity I experience at a good D&D session. DDO represents the kind of session you'd have with a bad DM who focuses more on his own dungeon designs than on actually giving the players something to do.
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Cool so in WoW you can create your own dungeon and not have to repeat any dungeon 2+ times? Totally cool! I don't know of any mmorpg that is that way. I may have to consider WoW then since it is closer to D&D!
As for fluidity in DDO... It tells you right on screen what to acomplish to beat the dungeon. Your group works to complete the dungeon goals with plenty of good experience and loot optionals on the side if you wanted to attempt. How much more fluidity can you get?
Is that not the same of any group doing a dungeon in any other game out there? Well I guess it's not as fluid as other games, gotta wait for the damn rogue to disable to the trap or so and so to adjust the floor tiles to lower the force field. And those damn rest shrines they take so long!
Comments
DDO labels itself as D&D online. THIS is why it fails. As a stand alone MMO, it has improved and become better than say 80% of what's out there, but as "Dungeons and Dragons" Online, it is a waste of my time.
Man, you must have had some crappy DM's then. The quests and world are static. I think it comes close as far as static dungeons, but if the 4th Edition software delivers as promised, you will see the difference. A bland voice reading a script ala Ben Stein is no match for the real thing. In a good D&D campaign, the story evolves and revolves around your personal set of characters. In DDO, the dungeons and plots do not evolve in any way. For this game to capture the feel of PnP, the story MUST be dynamic IMO. Perhaps I expected too much, but if the devs had waited to release DDO until things were ready, it's a goal they could have worked on.
If you are so adamant about the table top rules, and so staunchly against any changes then why don't you just continue to play the tabletop game? Honestly, all trolling aside, whats the point of coming here and complaining about it? Just play the table top and get the exact experience you are saying DDO lacks. Once they release the online client with ruleset 4 you'll be all set to play the closest thing to an MMO version of the actual PnP ruleset and life will be as it should. Until then, do yourself a favor and play it the way you enjoy it, on the table."Why can't my fighter charge opponents? Where is the spiked chain? What about Dragonmarked Houses?"
LOL! Really? The whole game is broken because you can't charge with a spiked chain? BTW...dragon marks have been in the game for quite a while now...
PC's start at 1 HD like anyone else, they just get a 20 HP "Heroic Durability" boost. There are no rolls on the HD, you get the max every level."intentionally raped" is a bit strong don't you think? The reason the 20 extra HP was added was so you didn't have your moderate CON wizards randomly dying because a single kobold got a lucky shot off.
They only had so much time to develop the game, so they chose not to implement some rules so that they could get the game out on time/on budget.Spiked chains, polearms, spears are all missing... they had to cut corners on development time and animation is expensive.
Dragonmarks were added to the game almost a year ago.
Yes there are differences between DDO & PnP. But DDO is still the most accurate representation of D&D in a MMO out there. Oh wait... it's the only one.
Give it time, it will continue to get better. They even fixed evasion not too long ago. They had to or Monks would have been totally broken.
They are working on that as well. The world is starting to change. They even blew up the markeplace tent a couple weeks ago.
Edit: trying to fix the "Enhanced Editor"'s buchering of quotes.
I posted a pic way back here... http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/1322569#1322569
.. .... .- - . - .-. --- .-.. .-.. ... .-- .... --- .-. . .--. --- .-. - .-.-.-
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Promote what you love instead of bashing what you hate.
Charging? Yeah, it definitely breaks the game for me. Considering I can do it in WOW and not DDO, it's a gaping flaw. As for dragonmarks, oh. While the game has improved a lot since launch, I still find it lacking in a lot of features. For every feature they have added, they have still left one out even after all this time. Besides, 4th edition comes out in 3 months. They aren't even planning to revamp DDO fo 4th edition, are they?
Speaking of which, I still do play tabletop games when I have the time, and DDO still does not compare. Why am I slagging it? Well, i am kind of peeved. DDO could be the best MMO out. There is a lot of potential in the license and the gameplay options it offers. If done properly, it would offer more variety than DDO, NWN, or any other CRPG to date. Instead, we get a medieval MMO with great dungeons but extremely limited character options. In short, DDO comes up.... short.
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Actually, they're already talking about 4th edition, and have been all week at Connect.
BTW, anyone who can say DDO has "extremely limited character options" in comparison to ANY other game on the market, isn't giving a realistic review, IMO.
Between race, skills, stats, feats, enhancements, and multiclassing options I haven't seen another MMO even close.
"Cry more"- statement made on the internet by a whiner wishing to immediately declare the text which follows as a troll.DDO labels itself as D&D online. THIS is why it fails. As a stand alone MMO, it has improved and become better than say 80% of what's out there, but as "Dungeons and Dragons" Online, it is a waste of my time.
Man, you must have had some crappy DM's then. The quests and world are static. I think it comes close as far as static dungeons, but if the 4th Edition software delivers as promised, you will see the difference. A bland voice reading a script ala Ben Stein is no match for the real thing. In a good D&D campaign, the story evolves and revolves around your personal set of characters. In DDO, the dungeons and plots do not evolve in any way. For this game to capture the feel of PnP, the story MUST be dynamic IMO. Perhaps I expected too much, but if the devs had waited to release DDO until things were ready, it's a goal they could have worked on.Souldrainer, your aptly name. Your one of those-Troll-energy-drain people in life maybe?
Anyway, if you need to troll, start another thread.
No MMO does come close to internal vision and imagination provided by table-top. If only!
However, DDO does create the reality of DnD better then any other MMO yet. EQ2, WoW, etc... don't come close and I have played both extensively. I liked them but running around killing mobs for collection quests and etc... has so many things wrong with there dynamic. EQ1, now that was a game!
For DDO - The speed, action, strategy was more then you could hope for with this game. The classes really do feel and remind me of PnP. You are entitled your opinion but well, your wrong.
Go away!
Thanks
I resubscribed after more than a year and I'm having a blast these past days. DDO is imho the perfect example of how should a PVE based fantasy MMO work. The character development is better than in vast majority of MMOs I have seen, of course still lacking when compared to PnP version, but an online game and PnP environment are very hard to compare in terms of freedom. Combat is excellent, graphics still nice and fresh yet very swift and it also seems a lot of content is being pushed out. Seems to me I might stay for a while. All and all, it just feels fun all the time, which is a nice change after so many grindy MMOs where it feels like work.
Codemasters should make something akin the station pass tbh, since they are going to publish JG:E too, it would cover my MMO needs by DDO as the perfect example of PVE fantasy game and JG:E on exactly the opposite side of the spectrum, and LOTRO just thrown in for the sake of it.
Subscribtions: EVE, SWTOR WOW, WAR, DDO, VG, AOC, COV, FFXI, GW, RFO, Aion
+plenty of F2P, betas, trials
Female Dwarf player: WOW, VG, WAR, DDO
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Due to the recent economic crisis and spending cuts the light at the end of the tunnel was turned off. Sincerely, God.
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"WOW actually comes closer to D&D than DDO does"
and there goes the last shred of credibility.
Coming from the guy who thought I said THAC "O" was supposed to be in DDO a page ago, this means a ton. Really, it does.
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So a few rules are missing, give it some time. They have been (correctly IMO) focusing on adding content and levels... that has been and is DDO's weakest point.
Unfortunately DDO's developers don't have the $100+ million per month rolling in to fund their development. I think they are doing a great job with what they have.
Yup you just lost all credibility there.
Apparently WoW snuck in feats? Ability to place stat points where I want to? A d20 based system while I wasn;t looking?
Man, you must have had some crappy DM's then. The quests and world are static. I think it comes close as far as static dungeons, but if the 4th Edition software delivers as promised, you will see the difference. A bland voice reading a script ala Ben Stein is no match for the real thing. In a good D&D campaign, the story evolves and revolves around your personal set of characters. In DDO, the dungeons and plots do not evolve in any way. For this game to capture the feel of PnP, the story MUST be dynamic IMO. Perhaps I expected too much, but if the devs had waited to release DDO until things were ready, it's a goal they could have worked on.Excellent DM's actually, I agree they weren't anal about the rules, but we had a blast.
If you expected the AI in a computer game to be comparable to a human DM and adapt the story on the fly to your reactions to any given situation, you are really living in cloud cuckoo land.
And to think I actually wasted my time responding to your post, at least that clears it up that it was just trolling all along.
Ok Souldrainer,
I'll Bite.
How is WoW more like DnD then DDO?
And please keep in mind to others, I want support for a re-review of DDO as a great MMORPG. So, while I am 'feeding the troll (sorry Souldrainer, you are entitled to your thoughts but...) please keep a support thread going as well.
SO it would seem that the Troll is silenced. Can't prove your claims about WoW being more like DnD then? Thank you.
Aside from that, my next question to anyone reading these forums, is do you think the Monk class will be weak, right on or maybe over-powered?
Peavce
It will probably also become a good splash class for anyone who can build without armor... WIS based AC bonus + Evasion for 2 levels of Monk.
All mobs past the Harbor have insane amounts of HP... HP to make up for the fact that all heroes have an extra 20 HP plus all your hit dice are maxxed out.
Why is this a big deal? Because your 6 HD mob now has 48+ HP, and your 6d6 fireball is only doing 6*3.5 = 21 HP. OK no problem, let's add enhancements to increase the amount of damge the fireball does by 10%-40%. Lets add weapon enchantments which also do this. Lets give wizards bunches of spell points so he can cast the 3 fireballs to take down that mob instead of the 1 that would have taken him down in PnP. Oops now melee is underpowered, lets boost their follow up attacks by +5 and +10 rather than decrease them like in PnP. And it continued to escalate from there.
So while yes it is all done to try to make it play better as a MMO, a lot of it just got out of hand and is bloating out of all the stats to the point where it starts to resemble something not entirely like PnP. They just kept adding stuff to fix things until it balanced rather than trying to keep as much stuff as possible the same and only fix what absolutely had to be fixed.
Can they fix it now? I don't think so. They've finally got something that is moderately balanced... they can't go back now, it would be like starting over.
The HP bloating isn't a big deal. At all. It is meant to make the game easier to balance. Can you imagine a character whose h.p. rolls ended up being a few 1s and 2s in a row? Good bye charcter and restart. In the PnP world, the DM can adjust for this poor fortune, and the character can survive to be quite interesting.
At one time I used to play in a PnP campaign in which HP were blind -- DM kept track. We could have had 5 or 100 hp...didn't matter. HP is an abstract system, and the granularity of it can be malliable. That is all Turbine did -- made the h.p. more granular. And guess what, 4th Edition is doing something similar, as did Star War Saga edition. You start with a greater number of h.p. than simply your d8 or d10.
Fix it? There's no need to fix it. Nothing is broken.
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Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO
Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Find the Truth: http://www.factcheck.org/
Right...because programming languages are all that matter when designing games...ignorant much? Nice attempt at a strawman argument though...wait, actually it was a failure even in that regard.
How many of you re-rolled your Baldur's Gate character to get a 50 point build? Yeah, I thought so.
So you claim there are many different approaches the devs could have used. Then address my points about how to make the Wizard/Sorcerer not boring to play in an online persistant world. Any copy of the D&D spell system to an MMO is so obvious a failure, if you don't see that then there is no hope.
In fact, why don't you address the points of the game rather than attacking the devs. You say you disagree, but give no concrete reasons why your opinion should be valued.
I've been playing D&D for 15 years. A friend that I play with has been at it for 20+, is a game designer, and writes game articles on D&D. We love the DDO adaptation
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Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO
Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Find the Truth: http://www.factcheck.org/
A fair critique? The definition of a troll on MMORPG is one who complains without any solid evidence to back it up. I see you saying a lot of "lazy devs" and "if only they would have done it better" but you give no explanation on how they could have done it better.
In fact, much of what you've said has been factually false (clerics and turning??)
Be more concrete or be a troll -- your choice.
_____________________________
Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO
Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Find the Truth: http://www.factcheck.org/
No explanation? I thought it was blatantly obvious that they simply needed to spend 2-3 more years developing the game, and then communicate with WOTC to integrate it with the upcoming 4th edition software and with NWN2's toolset. They needed a few hundred thousand more randomly selected dungeons at all levels, for example, because doing the same exact scripted dungeon 2+ times gets stale on the second run (let alone the 100th time). With DDO, I can't even create a dungeon. False advertising IMO.
The suggestion to spend more time and money is perfectly reasonable, considering that the game is called Dungeons and Dragons Online. That's a big recurring problem with D&D. Any time they make a side project, they fail to invest the proper time, money, quality, and budget necessary. DDO is kind of meh, but it could have and should have been jaw-dropping.
And yeah, I am right about the clerics as far as I'm concerned. Maybe some people choose to ignore characters getting 3 HD in the game. I don't.
As far as WOW being more accurate, it is. It accurately represents the same kind of fluidity I experience at a good D&D session. DDO represents the kind of session you'd have with a bad DM who focuses more on his own dungeon designs than on actually giving the players something to do.
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Feel free not to play it then, and enjoy WoW for your true D&D experience.
You're far too ridiculous to consider continuing a debate with.
Cool so in WoW you can create your own dungeon and not have to repeat any dungeon 2+ times? Totally cool! I don't know of any mmorpg that is that way. I may have to consider WoW then since it is closer to D&D!
As for fluidity in DDO... It tells you right on screen what to acomplish to beat the dungeon. Your group works to complete the dungeon goals with plenty of good experience and loot optionals on the side if you wanted to attempt. How much more fluidity can you get?
Is that not the same of any group doing a dungeon in any other game out there? Well I guess it's not as fluid as other games, gotta wait for the damn rogue to disable to the trap or so and so to adjust the floor tiles to lower the force field. And those damn rest shrines they take so long!
Give me DDO anyday...
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Promote what you love instead of bashing what you hate.