Saay, I NEVER said the NGE was illegal. I said "someday it will be illegal"... Like I said, Cyber Law is brand new, and we will see more and more suits as the industry grows. We are already seeing Blizzard win suits against Gold Miners. What LEC/SOE did was highly unethical, though not currently illegal. However, the marketing and sale of the expansion made for a game that would be vanquished only days later, in secrecy, is illegal, of which we both agree. A Court is going to see that gamers devote time and resources (and time is considered a resource in some aspects) to an MMO, and though the developer maintains the right to change the game over time, that doesn't mean that players cannot sue if they are treated with poor ethics or even slightly illegal behaviour. No matter what language SOE/LEC puts on the box to their game you can NEVER take away a persons right to sue for improper treatment. Virtual worlds are new, but the time is coming where they will be regulated more heavily. Precedent has to be set, and only time will do that, along with companies like SOE/LEC.
Woe betide a world with heavy regulations on everything, because implementing such regulations goes against so many things we value. Im saying that i hope very much that legislation like that isnt put in place, because it is not needed - a precendent is set, one that will be observed by MMO companies now and those to come, who will know not to make that ridiculous mistake; they dont need to put in laws restricting and shrinking the market! You may argue that some company may be stupid enough to do it again, and that with laws like this they would be forced to return it to the original game engine - but then continuing to play this game would go against everything you guys fight for, as it would be playing a game owned by a company who clearly doesnt deserve to run the game in your eyes, since they changed it in the first place, disregarding player's views/wants. Whichever way you look at it - with or without the laws, companies are now less likely to make drastic changes, but without the laws, you dont run the risk of causing market failure.
Excellent points Thunderous , corporations like $OE has to pull out of the gray zone and punished for unethical behaviour .
What is right has to become law !
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
OP, say you buy a nice new car with a 20k mile warrenty and the works. Your driving in your new ride and discover the blinkers don't work, it's mileage is less than advertised, and it's interior smells like old cheese. Despite these problems you still love the lil thing, so you take it in for repairs. And while the dealers details the inside and fixes the blinker you are told parts for the gas problem won't arrive for three months. Three months later you take it in, but on it's return are told you'll still get bad milage but you got sexah new seat covers!, please come back in 3 months, we PROMISE we'll be able to fix it then. Oh and we messed up your brakes, drive carefull till then . 3 months later they fix the brakes, make the gass milage worse and btw, your headlights are always on when the keys in the ignition, not sure why, but we'll fix that as soon as we figure it out. A month later you take it in to get the promised fixes and when you return to pick up your car your givven a different one, and they say we think you'll like this car better even tho it's nothing like the one you bought. No you don't have a choice and no you can't have your money back. Would you just forget being treated in such a manner? Or would you tell all and sundry about the deceptive practices of said company. And no I would not go back to a classic server. Looking at the way SOE has been dealing with some of their other games tells me they are still opperating in the same way. I'll not give them a penny, h3ll i won't even play a free trial of their products. If you enjoy the game now, bully for you, but don't tell me what I should and should not get over. You're effectively, knowingly playing the equivelent of stolen goods and IMO that makes you no better the theives who "stole" it.
I understand your point of view i felt the same. It was jsut hen my vet trial thing came i tried it and it suited me again. As far as them stealing something and your calling me a thief just like them is prob the funniest thing i have ever heard. Your discription above can describe just about any MMO out there even the god almite WOW i remember when mages where so weak after an update they could bearly level solo. So i seriously have to say SOE and MMOs in general are always gonna change, sometimes people will like it sometimes they wont. But thats what that little "I Agree" button is there for everytime you log into any game.
Saay, I NEVER said the NGE was illegal. I said "someday it will be illegal"... Like I said, Cyber Law is brand new, and we will see more and more suits as the industry grows. We are already seeing Blizzard win suits against Gold Miners. What LEC/SOE did was highly unethical, though not currently illegal. However, the marketing and sale of the expansion made for a game that would be vanquished only days later, in secrecy, is illegal, of which we both agree. A Court is going to see that gamers devote time and resources (and time is considered a resource in some aspects) to an MMO, and though the developer maintains the right to change the game over time, that doesn't mean that players cannot sue if they are treated with poor ethics or even slightly illegal behaviour. No matter what language SOE/LEC puts on the box to their game you can NEVER take away a persons right to sue for improper treatment. Virtual worlds are new, but the time is coming where they will be regulated more heavily. Precedent has to be set, and only time will do that, along with companies like SOE/LEC.
Woe betide a world with heavy regulations on everything, because implementing such regulations goes against so many things we value. Im saying that i hope very much that legislation like that isnt put in place, because it is not needed - a precendent is set, one that will be observed by MMO companies now and those to come, who will know not to make that ridiculous mistake; they dont need to put in laws restricting and shrinking the market! You may argue that some company may be stupid enough to do it again, and that with laws like this they would be forced to return it to the original game engine - but then continuing to play this game would go against everything you guys fight for, as it would be playing a game owned by a company who clearly doesnt deserve to run the game in your eyes, since they changed it in the first place, disregarding player's views/wants. Whichever way you look at it - with or without the laws, companies are now less likely to make drastic changes, but without the laws, you dont run the risk of causing market failure.
Good God man, it's not like the sky would fall if there were some regulations. Hell, almost every industry has them and they survive right? Automotive industy, food and hospitality industry, medical industry, toy industry, etc... All those industries adapt to any regulation placed in it's path. If it can't adapt they can get out of the business and let someone who can adapt run the show.
If we are to expect no regulations in this industry then how about a free client download? At least that way there is no initial investment in the game.
Saay, I NEVER said the NGE was illegal. I said "someday it will be illegal"... Like I said, Cyber Law is brand new, and we will see more and more suits as the industry grows. We are already seeing Blizzard win suits against Gold Miners. What LEC/SOE did was highly unethical, though not currently illegal. However, the marketing and sale of the expansion made for a game that would be vanquished only days later, in secrecy, is illegal, of which we both agree. A Court is going to see that gamers devote time and resources (and time is considered a resource in some aspects) to an MMO, and though the developer maintains the right to change the game over time, that doesn't mean that players cannot sue if they are treated with poor ethics or even slightly illegal behaviour. No matter what language SOE/LEC puts on the box to their game you can NEVER take away a persons right to sue for improper treatment. Virtual worlds are new, but the time is coming where they will be regulated more heavily. Precedent has to be set, and only time will do that, along with companies like SOE/LEC.
Woe betide a world with heavy regulations on everything, because implementing such regulations goes against so many things we value. Im saying that i hope very much that legislation like that isnt put in place, because it is not needed - a precendent is set, one that will be observed by MMO companies now and those to come, who will know not to make that ridiculous mistake; they dont need to put in laws restricting and shrinking the market! You may argue that some company may be stupid enough to do it again, and that with laws like this they would be forced to return it to the original game engine - but then continuing to play this game would go against everything you guys fight for, as it would be playing a game owned by a company who clearly doesnt deserve to run the game in your eyes, since they changed it in the first place, disregarding player's views/wants. Whichever way you look at it - with or without the laws, companies are now less likely to make drastic changes, but without the laws, you dont run the risk of causing market failure.
Regulation would cause market failure? Are you kidding? So what if we had no corporate regulations?
Why don't you ask the thousands of people that lost their jobs, their pensions, and their livelyhood when Enron CEO's decided to run the company into the ground, cashing in their stocks first, cooking the books, and failing to tell ANYONE about it... Why don't you go ask those people if regulation is a BAD thing...
Until the 1930's our stock market had little regulation and look what happened... Ever heard of the Great Depression? Look it up.
The ONLY thing that will protect gamers who invest THOUSANDS of hours into playing a game is regulation of some kind. What SOE did was not right, and in any other industry would be illegal.
If SOE wasn't a privately-owned company, if they were PUBLIC and stocks were traded, John Smedley would most likely be unemployed right now, not just over SWG but over many other of his decisions while running SOE into the ground.
For WHATEVER reason you really like to stick up for SOE, a company who could care less if you play their game or not, but you really are coming to this debate armed with a butterknife...
Saay, I NEVER said the NGE was illegal. I said "someday it will be illegal"... Like I said, Cyber Law is brand new, and we will see more and more suits as the industry grows. We are already seeing Blizzard win suits against Gold Miners. What LEC/SOE did was highly unethical, though not currently illegal. However, the marketing and sale of the expansion made for a game that would be vanquished only days later, in secrecy, is illegal, of which we both agree. A Court is going to see that gamers devote time and resources (and time is considered a resource in some aspects) to an MMO, and though the developer maintains the right to change the game over time, that doesn't mean that players cannot sue if they are treated with poor ethics or even slightly illegal behaviour. No matter what language SOE/LEC puts on the box to their game you can NEVER take away a persons right to sue for improper treatment. Virtual worlds are new, but the time is coming where they will be regulated more heavily. Precedent has to be set, and only time will do that, along with companies like SOE/LEC.
Woe betide a world with heavy regulations on everything, because implementing such regulations goes against so many things we value. Im saying that i hope very much that legislation like that isnt put in place, because it is not needed - a precendent is set, one that will be observed by MMO companies now and those to come, who will know not to make that ridiculous mistake; they dont need to put in laws restricting and shrinking the market! You may argue that some company may be stupid enough to do it again, and that with laws like this they would be forced to return it to the original game engine - but then continuing to play this game would go against everything you guys fight for, as it would be playing a game owned by a company who clearly doesnt deserve to run the game in your eyes, since they changed it in the first place, disregarding player's views/wants. Whichever way you look at it - with or without the laws, companies are now less likely to make drastic changes, but without the laws, you dont run the risk of causing market failure.
Excellent points Thunderous , corporations like $OE has to pull out of the gray zone and punished for unethical behaviour .
Free publicity was good publicity back in the 50s, even in the 60s and 70s, before viral marketing took over. Today, bad publicity hurts, good publicity helps. There is no doubt that bad viral marketing, which SOE brought down on themselves, have hurt them far more than any name recognition may have been generated (which is why people used to say any press, even bad press, is good).
Regulations are created by abuses and deficiencies that are discovered.
For example, building codes in the LA basin are updated as we learn more about what an earthquake will do to buildings. Specific buliding methods are forbidden or modified in order to make buidlings more earthquake resistant.
So, if SOE finds itself beset by regulations that are created in reaction to their business practices, they have only themselves to blame for it. If they didn't do the deed, they wouldn't have some government official breathing down their necks.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
OP, say you buy a nice new car with a 20k mile warrenty and the works. Your driving in your new ride and discover the blinkers don't work, it's mileage is less than advertised, and it's interior smells like old cheese. Despite these problems you still love the lil thing, so you take it in for repairs. And while the dealers details the inside and fixes the blinker you are told parts for the gas problem won't arrive for three months. Three months later you take it in, but on it's return are told you'll still get bad milage but you got sexah new seat covers!, please come back in 3 months, we PROMISE we'll be able to fix it then. Oh and we messed up your brakes, drive carefull till then . 3 months later they fix the brakes, make the gass milage worse and btw, your headlights are always on when the keys in the ignition, not sure why, but we'll fix that as soon as we figure it out. A month later you take it in to get the promised fixes and when you return to pick up your car your givven a different one, and they say we think you'll like this car better even tho it's nothing like the one you bought. No you don't have a choice and no you can't have your money back. Would you just forget being treated in such a manner? Or would you tell all and sundry about the deceptive practices of said company. And no I would not go back to a classic server. Looking at the way SOE has been dealing with some of their other games tells me they are still opperating in the same way. I'll not give them a penny, h3ll i won't even play a free trial of their products. If you enjoy the game now, bully for you, but don't tell me what I should and should not get over. You're effectively, knowingly playing the equivelent of stolen goods and IMO that makes you no better the theives who "stole" it.
I understand your point of view i felt the same. It was jsut hen my vet trial thing came i tried it and it suited me again. As far as them stealing something and your calling me a thief just like them is prob the funniest thing i have ever heard. Your discription above can describe just about any MMO out there even the god almite WOW i remember when mages where so weak after an update they could bearly level solo. So i seriously have to say SOE and MMOs in general are always gonna change, sometimes people will like it sometimes they wont. But thats what that little "I Agree" button is there for everytime you log into any game.
And we dont log in anymore lol so whats your point...............
OP i can enlighten you... Itis my right to post here and i post here because my statements are not allowed at the sucker O boards i had to move here thanks to the fascistic like ban and mute behavior or $OE moderation.You seem to forget that the company forced us to leave betraying us by developing with our money a game which they knowed will drive us away and will destroy our belongings, all in the hidden and in front of us telling us lies about. I will continue to use the power of posting my point of views about that company and the state of the sucky NGE and the inferior money sucking strategies $OE develops and on the other site delivers inferior crap. It also feels good to remember them what they did every day till a satisfactory solution is reached were the vast majority of Star Wars fans can enjoy a Star Wars MMO. And btw you being satisfied by something inferior and coming here to defend it is more disturbing IMO. Is Star Wars MMO the big vision for all of us be part of it or the way for some small mean man to make $cash ?
Above in red stood out to me.
What would you consider a satisfactory solution??? If its the game getting it plug pulled is a staisfactory solution then of course this will happen in time. Every game will eventually be shut down.
Saay, I NEVER said the NGE was illegal. I said "someday it will be illegal"... Like I said, Cyber Law is brand new, and we will see more and more suits as the industry grows. We are already seeing Blizzard win suits against Gold Miners. What LEC/SOE did was highly unethical, though not currently illegal. However, the marketing and sale of the expansion made for a game that would be vanquished only days later, in secrecy, is illegal, of which we both agree. A Court is going to see that gamers devote time and resources (and time is considered a resource in some aspects) to an MMO, and though the developer maintains the right to change the game over time, that doesn't mean that players cannot sue if they are treated with poor ethics or even slightly illegal behaviour. No matter what language SOE/LEC puts on the box to their game you can NEVER take away a persons right to sue for improper treatment. Virtual worlds are new, but the time is coming where they will be regulated more heavily. Precedent has to be set, and only time will do that, along with companies like SOE/LEC.
Woe betide a world with heavy regulations on everything, because implementing such regulations goes against so many things we value. Im saying that i hope very much that legislation like that isnt put in place, because it is not needed - a precendent is set, one that will be observed by MMO companies now and those to come, who will know not to make that ridiculous mistake; they dont need to put in laws restricting and shrinking the market! You may argue that some company may be stupid enough to do it again, and that with laws like this they would be forced to return it to the original game engine - but then continuing to play this game would go against everything you guys fight for, as it would be playing a game owned by a company who clearly doesnt deserve to run the game in your eyes, since they changed it in the first place, disregarding player's views/wants. Whichever way you look at it - with or without the laws, companies are now less likely to make drastic changes, but without the laws, you dont run the risk of causing market failure.
Good God man, it's not like the sky would fall if there were some regulations. Hell, almost every industry has them and they survive right? Automotive industy, food and hospitality industry, medical industry, toy industry, etc... All those industries adapt to any regulation placed in it's path. If it can't adapt they can get out of the business and let someone who can adapt run the show.
If we are to expect no regulations in this industry then how about a free client download? At least that way there is no initial investment in the game.
Dont get me wrong, im not saying regulations generally are bad - thats ludicrous, of course rules and regulations are vital, otherwise chaos would ensue, but i am suggesting that heavy regulations are inefficient and undesirable in the long term. The MMO industry is a fairly new product that is different in many ways to others and i believe that if companies werent allowed to change/improve their games the market would shrink - you may argue that its not just a change - its got to be a significant change; whats a significant change? game engine? what if it actually was desirable to 80% of the player base, but the other 20% strongly opposed it - they wouldnt be able to change for the better. Companies would become worried about this sort of thing when deciding whether to invest in a new MMO, its hard to know if your game is going to be good at first, and you may have misjudged what people want; with too many rules they may not be able to fix their mistakes.
Long term projects such as MMO's need the leeway to change and adapt; such large investments are made on the basis, that the game can be altered if it doesnt quite turn out to be what people wanted. I just dont see how you could regulate against such changes as something like the NGE (not the ToOW and lying stuff) [not that any company would consider a change like that from now on anyway] without having a detrimental effect on the industry.
Thunderous: as i said above, im not saying there should be no regulations - that would be terrible.
Significant changes in the gameplay mechanics, not to include tweaks and game balance.
In otherwords, you don't rip out a non class system and replace it with a class based system. You don't make major changes to combat mechanics. Tweak and modify slightly for balance reasons, sure, but not wholesale changes.
What SOE did to SWG was not a simple tweak or for game balance, they completely gutted a game. I liken it to going to a play, buying your ticket and sit down and begin watching your show. At intermission, you are informed that because there weren't enough people in the seats that the scheduled show wasn't coming back after intermission and that if you didn't like it, that was your problem as they were putting in a show for the second half that they thought was great and anyone who didn't agree was wrong for not trying it or coming back for a later show.
Dont get me wrong, im not saying regulations generally are bad - thats ludicrous, of course rules and regulations are vital, otherwise chaos would ensue, but i am suggesting that heavy regulations are inefficient and undesirable in the long term. The MMO industry is a fairly new product that is different in many ways to others and i believe that if companies werent allowed to change/improve their games the market would shrink - you may argue that its not just a change - its got to be a significant change; whats a significant change? game engine? what if it actually was desirable to 80% of the player base, but the other 20% strongly opposed it - they wouldnt be able to change for the better. Companies would become worried about this sort of thing when deciding whether to invest in a new MMO, its hard to know if your game is going to be good at first, and you may have misjudged what people want; with too many rules they may not be able to fix their mistakes.
Long term projects such as MMO's need the leeway to change and adapt; such large investments are made on the basis, that the game can be altered if it doesnt quite turn out to be what people wanted. I just dont see how you could regulate against such changes as something like the NGE (not the ToOW and lying stuff) [not that any company would consider a change like that from now on anyway] without having a detrimental effect on the industry. Thunderous: as i said above, im not saying there should be no regulations - that would be terrible.
And don't get me wrong either Saay. I know you cannot have a game that doesn't make some changes. But just like Raston pointed out there has got to be some middleground here. A skill based system exchanged for a level based system is taking a change too far IMO as it changes the fundemental core system of the game.
Try thinking of it from a different perspective. Do you think LA could suddenly take the IP licsence away from SOE? Do you not think that SOE has a binding contract to use that IP? Imagine having to react to a game that's suddenly not Star Wars anymore. SoE surely has their assurances to use LA's IP. Why do we not have those same considerations when we buy the game? Why are we not assured the game we play has a resemblence to the game we purchased?
Pepc, I did not call you a theif, tho i can see how I may be interpreted that way. So let me clairify. I feel that those who know of and understand the events that occured in SWG ( and apperently are happening in other SOE games) yet still patronize the company, are like a person who knowingly buys stolen goods so as to save a little cash. Did they steal the items, no; did they make the theif go out to do it, no; do they give the villans profit and therefore encouragement to continue, certainly. Am I more than a little unforgiving and inflexible in these opinions, yup. But then I'm not the one in another group of peoples forums telling them how to think.
Dont get me wrong, im not saying regulations generally are bad - thats ludicrous, of course rules and regulations are vital, otherwise chaos would ensue, but i am suggesting that heavy regulations are inefficient and undesirable in the long term. The MMO industry is a fairly new product that is different in many ways to others and i believe that if companies werent allowed to change/improve their games the market would shrink - you may argue that its not just a change - its got to be a significant change; whats a significant change? game engine? what if it actually was desirable to 80% of the player base, but the other 20% strongly opposed it - they wouldnt be able to change for the better. Companies would become worried about this sort of thing when deciding whether to invest in a new MMO, its hard to know if your game is going to be good at first, and you may have misjudged what people want; with too many rules they may not be able to fix their mistakes.
Long term projects such as MMO's need the leeway to change and adapt; such large investments are made on the basis, that the game can be altered if it doesnt quite turn out to be what people wanted. I just dont see how you could regulate against such changes as something like the NGE (not the ToOW and lying stuff) [not that any company would consider a change like that from now on anyway] without having a detrimental effect on the industry. Thunderous: as i said above, im not saying there should be no regulations - that would be terrible.
And don't get me wrong either Saay. I know you cannot have a game that doesn't make some changes. But just like Raston pointed out there has got to be some middleground here. A skill based system exchanged for a level based system is taking a change too far IMO as it changes the fundemental core system of the game.
Try thinking of it from a different perspective. Do you think LA could suddenly take the IP licsence away from SOE? Do you not think that SOE has a binding contract to use that IP? Imagine having to react to a game that's suddenly not Star Wars anymore. SoE surely has their assurances to use LA's IP. Why do we not have those same considerations when we buy the game? Why are we not assured the game we play has a resemblence to the game we purchased?
Because they've got millions of dollars on the line in a huge franchise that they built up, whereas we can choose to stop paying when we want with no further consequences (the exception being those that paid 1 year subs; yet they can still stop after than period). I changing the system from skill based to level based was bad - but what if another MMO came out, many loved it for lots of it's features, but disliked the fact that it was level based - under such regulations, they wouldnt be able to change it to skill-based for the greater good. However i do see your point and understand you, but as ive said, i think there would be large detrimental effects.
A franchise, that, incidentally, SOE and LEC flushed down the toilet with the NGE. They've lost tens of millions of dollars in lost sub revenue. Why did they lose that money? The NGE. What will never bring that money back? The NGE.
If I were running a MMO development house, and LEC approached me about buying the rights to do a Star Wars MMO, I'd laugh in their faces. I'd ask them how much they'd be preparing to pay ME to do such a thing.
Given the reputation now associated with Star Wars as a MMO, it's going to take YEARS for it to recover to the value it once had as a MMO IP.
Because they've got millions of dollars on the line in a huge franchise that they built up, whereas we can choose to stop paying when we want with no further consequences (the exception being those that paid 1 year subs; yet they can still stop after than period). I changing the system from skill based to level based was bad - but what if another MMO came out, many loved it for lots of it's features, but disliked the fact that it was level based - under such regulations, they wouldnt be able to change it to skill-based for the greater good. However i do see your point and understand you, but as ive said, i think there would be large detrimental effects.
You lacking to understand the keyword "respect" regarding any change in the MMO.
If the majority of the customers loves all the features and dislike one of them , then there is absolutely a change IN RESPECT to customer wishes possible and eventually necessary so that disliked feature get whiped.
NGE was a change with NO RESPECT towards the wishes of the community that is what is unethical andhas to be expressed in formal law so no sucker again has a chance to betray me.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Jeff Freeman, one of the managers involved in the NGE development, admitted that the existing subscribers were NOT EVEN A CONSIDERATION with respect to the changes made with the NGE. They went into it WITH THE ASSUMPTION WE'D ALL LEAVE!
Which made it easy to be deaf.
The realization that they weren't gods probably caused some nervous breakdowns amongst some of them when Spring 2006 rolled around and all they had was a greatly diminished remnant of the pre NGE player base and no new customers at all.
You might wonder why that number is relevant to this conversation, so I'll repeat it again
44,850,000
yes, that is almost 45 million...
oh, and btw, that is in dollars.
That is the revenue off of 250k people at 14.95 a month, annually
Take that into consideration about what SOE said they thought of the current players of SWG, the ones they didn't listen to and were irrelevant in their dicussions about and dealing with the major and unethical alteration of a game.
Let us say, for the sake of argument that they still have 50k players left. That would be revenues of 8,970,000. That is a FAR cry from the potential that preCU had in terms of revenue, especially when you consider the cost in development time into the equation.
Sad is what it is really, really, really sad. Greed is the green eyed monster and it bit SOE squarely on the ass.
44,850,000 ... Let us say, for the sake of argument that they still have 50k players left. That would be revenues of 8,970,000. That is a FAR cry from the potential that preCU had in terms of revenue, especially when you consider the cost in development time into the equation. Sad is what it is really, really, really sad. Greed is the green eyed monster and it bit SOE squarely on the ass.
Interesting clinical look at the numbers. Now if we are doing clinical looks, don't forget the fact that the pre-cu was not wow-friendly, and at the time the available mmo options were limited. We all know now that the masses prefer lame wow-like clones.. do you really think they would have stuck it out on swg with these newer things around? 50k at this point in swg's life cycle is actually rather good, even if it was still in its original form. Better it be closer to 0 though, that way it can go the way of most old mmos, and someone new can come around with the license (and did you really think that new dev team would not also make a wow-clone crapfeast? of course they would.. especially a big name like say.. bioware.)
44,850,000 You might wonder why that number is relevant to this conversation, so I'll repeat it again 44,850,000 yes, that is almost 45 million... oh, and btw, that is in dollars. That is the revenue off of 250k people at 14.95 a month, annually Take that into consideration about what SOE said they thought of the current players of SWG, the ones they didn't listen to and were irrelevant in their dicussions about and dealing with the major and unethical alteration of a game. Let us say, for the sake of argument that they still have 50k players left. That would be revenues of 8,970,000. That is a FAR cry from the potential that preCU had in terms of revenue, especially when you consider the cost in development time into the equation. Sad is what it is really, really, really sad. Greed is the green eyed monster and it bit SOE squarely on the ass.
The difference is covered by lowering the costs by firing the talented people and keep the untalented like toilet boy lol
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
44,850,000 ... Let us say, for the sake of argument that they still have 50k players left. That would be revenues of 8,970,000. That is a FAR cry from the potential that preCU had in terms of revenue, especially when you consider the cost in development time into the equation. Sad is what it is really, really, really sad. Greed is the green eyed monster and it bit SOE squarely on the ass.
Interesting clinical look at the numbers. Now if we are doing clinical looks, don't forget the fact that the pre-cu was not wow-friendly, and at the time the available mmo options were limited. We all know now that the masses prefer lame wow-like clones.. do you really think they would have stuck it out on swg with these newer things around? 50k at this point in swg's life cycle is actually rather good, even if it was still in its original form. Better it be closer to 0 though, that way it can go the way of most old mmos, and someone new can come around with the license (and did you really think that new dev team would not also make a wow-clone crapfeast? of course they would.. especially a big name like say.. bioware.)
Actually, I think they might of actually grown some as those who got tired of the WoW crap looked for some other place to go. Look at games like EVE to see this kind of trend. Would it ever been beyond a niche game? No, probably not, but I honestly think they may of had at minimum 250k still subscribed if they hadn't NGE'd the game, maybe as high as 350k.
The other way to look at it is like this however. Most of that 200k quit pretty quickly after NGE rather than on a decaying/attribution basis, so that was a drastic shock of revenue. And given the fact that they haven't really dropped the number of servers, many of their fixed costs wouldn't of changed as much dealing with that aspect. They probably saw some benefit from the sudden reduction of bandwidth need, but given the constantly dropping cost of bandwidth, that probably wouldn't of been a major savings aspect, certainly not offset against the revenue drop.
Personally, I would of gone back to SWG a while back, but I hate the new game they have. As the saying goes, why play a WoW clone when you can play the real thing? (and yes, I know that WoW is really a easy mode clone of DAoC which is an easy mode close of EQ).
There are now and always will be enough of a market (should someone go after it) for the non EQ style of MMORPGs out there. Because there will always be though who seek more than whakamole in their gaming experience.
Because they've got millions of dollars on the line in a huge franchise that they built up, whereas we can choose to stop paying when we want with no further consequences (the exception being those that paid 1 year subs; yet they can still stop after than period). I changing the system from skill based to level based was bad - but what if another MMO came out, many loved it for lots of it's features, but disliked the fact that it was level based - under such regulations, they wouldnt be able to change it to skill-based for the greater good. However i do see your point and understand you, but as ive said, i think there would be large detrimental effects.
You lacking to understand the keyword "respect" regarding any change in the MMO.
If the majority of the customers loves all the features and dislike one of them , then there is absolutely a change IN RESPECT to customer wishes possible and eventually necessary so that disliked feature get whiped.
NGE was a change with NO RESPECT towards the wishes of the community that is what is unethical andhas to be expressed in formal law so no sucker again has a chance to betray me.
You are not understanding my point though - that if a rule like that was put in place, other MMOs might not be able to change for the better, unless they created some sort of game-wide consent voting system based in law, which is, well unlikely as i see it, the law doesnt usually do things like that and the logistics would be tricky, but i guess it could work though, id have to think about it.
that is just it, I don't think there should be major changes to the mechanics. If you want major changes, make a new game with those major changes and call it a sequel. I don't care a majority of the player base wants it or not, you don't go changing major game features after release, that is what alpha/beta is for.
You are not understanding my point though - that if a rule like that was put in place, other MMOs might not be able to change for the better, unless they created some sort of game-wide consent voting system based in law, which is, well unlikely as i see it, the law doesnt usually do things like that and the logistics would be tricky, but i guess it could work though, id have to think about it.
Indeed such a game-wide consent voting system
would be a good idea.
Btw this could work as a general next gen MMO invention too.
Customers voting for the directions of development process and how and in which direction they like to see their online world evolve. I think in some point in the feature this will be common in MMO.
This concept gets more and more ground in TV show entertainment already.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
that is just it, I don't think there should be major changes to the mechanics. If you want major changes, make a new game with those major changes and call it a sequel. I don't care a majority of the player base wants it or not, you don't go changing major game features after release, that is what alpha/beta is for.
A product get always recognised for some origin key-features it wouldn't be wise to change them.
But i see the problem of an MMO as an dynamic system sometimes requiring changes.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Comments
Woe betide a world with heavy regulations on everything, because implementing such regulations goes against so many things we value. Im saying that i hope very much that legislation like that isnt put in place, because it is not needed - a precendent is set, one that will be observed by MMO companies now and those to come, who will know not to make that ridiculous mistake; they dont need to put in laws restricting and shrinking the market! You may argue that some company may be stupid enough to do it again, and that with laws like this they would be forced to return it to the original game engine - but then continuing to play this game would go against everything you guys fight for, as it would be playing a game owned by a company who clearly doesnt deserve to run the game in your eyes, since they changed it in the first place, disregarding player's views/wants. Whichever way you look at it - with or without the laws, companies are now less likely to make drastic changes, but without the laws, you dont run the risk of causing market failure.
Excellent points Thunderous , corporations like $OE has to pull out of the gray zone and punished for unethical behaviour .
What is right has to become law !
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Woe betide a world with heavy regulations on everything, because implementing such regulations goes against so many things we value. Im saying that i hope very much that legislation like that isnt put in place, because it is not needed - a precendent is set, one that will be observed by MMO companies now and those to come, who will know not to make that ridiculous mistake; they dont need to put in laws restricting and shrinking the market! You may argue that some company may be stupid enough to do it again, and that with laws like this they would be forced to return it to the original game engine - but then continuing to play this game would go against everything you guys fight for, as it would be playing a game owned by a company who clearly doesnt deserve to run the game in your eyes, since they changed it in the first place, disregarding player's views/wants. Whichever way you look at it - with or without the laws, companies are now less likely to make drastic changes, but without the laws, you dont run the risk of causing market failure.
Good God man, it's not like the sky would fall if there were some regulations. Hell, almost every industry has them and they survive right? Automotive industy, food and hospitality industry, medical industry, toy industry, etc... All those industries adapt to any regulation placed in it's path. If it can't adapt they can get out of the business and let someone who can adapt run the show.
If we are to expect no regulations in this industry then how about a free client download? At least that way there is no initial investment in the game.
Woe betide a world with heavy regulations on everything, because implementing such regulations goes against so many things we value. Im saying that i hope very much that legislation like that isnt put in place, because it is not needed - a precendent is set, one that will be observed by MMO companies now and those to come, who will know not to make that ridiculous mistake; they dont need to put in laws restricting and shrinking the market! You may argue that some company may be stupid enough to do it again, and that with laws like this they would be forced to return it to the original game engine - but then continuing to play this game would go against everything you guys fight for, as it would be playing a game owned by a company who clearly doesnt deserve to run the game in your eyes, since they changed it in the first place, disregarding player's views/wants. Whichever way you look at it - with or without the laws, companies are now less likely to make drastic changes, but without the laws, you dont run the risk of causing market failure.
Regulation would cause market failure? Are you kidding? So what if we had no corporate regulations?
Why don't you ask the thousands of people that lost their jobs, their pensions, and their livelyhood when Enron CEO's decided to run the company into the ground, cashing in their stocks first, cooking the books, and failing to tell ANYONE about it... Why don't you go ask those people if regulation is a BAD thing...
Until the 1930's our stock market had little regulation and look what happened... Ever heard of the Great Depression? Look it up.
The ONLY thing that will protect gamers who invest THOUSANDS of hours into playing a game is regulation of some kind. What SOE did was not right, and in any other industry would be illegal.
If SOE wasn't a privately-owned company, if they were PUBLIC and stocks were traded, John Smedley would most likely be unemployed right now, not just over SWG but over many other of his decisions while running SOE into the ground.
For WHATEVER reason you really like to stick up for SOE, a company who could care less if you play their game or not, but you really are coming to this debate armed with a butterknife...
Tecmo Bowl.
Woe betide a world with heavy regulations on everything, because implementing such regulations goes against so many things we value. Im saying that i hope very much that legislation like that isnt put in place, because it is not needed - a precendent is set, one that will be observed by MMO companies now and those to come, who will know not to make that ridiculous mistake; they dont need to put in laws restricting and shrinking the market! You may argue that some company may be stupid enough to do it again, and that with laws like this they would be forced to return it to the original game engine - but then continuing to play this game would go against everything you guys fight for, as it would be playing a game owned by a company who clearly doesnt deserve to run the game in your eyes, since they changed it in the first place, disregarding player's views/wants. Whichever way you look at it - with or without the laws, companies are now less likely to make drastic changes, but without the laws, you dont run the risk of causing market failure.
Excellent points Thunderous , corporations like $OE has to pull out of the gray zone and punished for unethical behaviour .
What is right has to become law !
Thank you : )
Tecmo Bowl.
Free publicity was good publicity back in the 50s, even in the 60s and 70s, before viral marketing took over. Today, bad publicity hurts, good publicity helps. There is no doubt that bad viral marketing, which SOE brought down on themselves, have hurt them far more than any name recognition may have been generated (which is why people used to say any press, even bad press, is good).
fishermage.blogspot.com
Regulations are created by abuses and deficiencies that are discovered.
For example, building codes in the LA basin are updated as we learn more about what an earthquake will do to buildings. Specific buliding methods are forbidden or modified in order to make buidlings more earthquake resistant.
So, if SOE finds itself beset by regulations that are created in reaction to their business practices, they have only themselves to blame for it. If they didn't do the deed, they wouldn't have some government official breathing down their necks.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
And we dont log in anymore lol so whats your point...............
Above in red stood out to me.
What would you consider a satisfactory solution??? If its the game getting it plug pulled is a staisfactory solution then of course this will happen in time. Every game will eventually be shut down.
SO YES!!!!!!!! you win! You showed Sony lol.
Above in green.
Inferior to what game?
LOL CUNGE rofl is inferior to pre cu.......
Woe betide a world with heavy regulations on everything, because implementing such regulations goes against so many things we value. Im saying that i hope very much that legislation like that isnt put in place, because it is not needed - a precendent is set, one that will be observed by MMO companies now and those to come, who will know not to make that ridiculous mistake; they dont need to put in laws restricting and shrinking the market! You may argue that some company may be stupid enough to do it again, and that with laws like this they would be forced to return it to the original game engine - but then continuing to play this game would go against everything you guys fight for, as it would be playing a game owned by a company who clearly doesnt deserve to run the game in your eyes, since they changed it in the first place, disregarding player's views/wants. Whichever way you look at it - with or without the laws, companies are now less likely to make drastic changes, but without the laws, you dont run the risk of causing market failure.
Good God man, it's not like the sky would fall if there were some regulations. Hell, almost every industry has them and they survive right? Automotive industy, food and hospitality industry, medical industry, toy industry, etc... All those industries adapt to any regulation placed in it's path. If it can't adapt they can get out of the business and let someone who can adapt run the show.
If we are to expect no regulations in this industry then how about a free client download? At least that way there is no initial investment in the game.
Dont get me wrong, im not saying regulations generally are bad - thats ludicrous, of course rules and regulations are vital, otherwise chaos would ensue, but i am suggesting that heavy regulations are inefficient and undesirable in the long term. The MMO industry is a fairly new product that is different in many ways to others and i believe that if companies werent allowed to change/improve their games the market would shrink - you may argue that its not just a change - its got to be a significant change; whats a significant change? game engine? what if it actually was desirable to 80% of the player base, but the other 20% strongly opposed it - they wouldnt be able to change for the better. Companies would become worried about this sort of thing when deciding whether to invest in a new MMO, its hard to know if your game is going to be good at first, and you may have misjudged what people want; with too many rules they may not be able to fix their mistakes.Long term projects such as MMO's need the leeway to change and adapt; such large investments are made on the basis, that the game can be altered if it doesnt quite turn out to be what people wanted. I just dont see how you could regulate against such changes as something like the NGE (not the ToOW and lying stuff) [not that any company would consider a change like that from now on anyway] without having a detrimental effect on the industry.
Thunderous: as i said above, im not saying there should be no regulations - that would be terrible.
it is simple to define really Saay.
Significant changes in the gameplay mechanics, not to include tweaks and game balance.
In otherwords, you don't rip out a non class system and replace it with a class based system. You don't make major changes to combat mechanics. Tweak and modify slightly for balance reasons, sure, but not wholesale changes.
What SOE did to SWG was not a simple tweak or for game balance, they completely gutted a game. I liken it to going to a play, buying your ticket and sit down and begin watching your show. At intermission, you are informed that because there weren't enough people in the seats that the scheduled show wasn't coming back after intermission and that if you didn't like it, that was your problem as they were putting in a show for the second half that they thought was great and anyone who didn't agree was wrong for not trying it or coming back for a later show.
And don't get me wrong either Saay. I know you cannot have a game that doesn't make some changes. But just like Raston pointed out there has got to be some middleground here. A skill based system exchanged for a level based system is taking a change too far IMO as it changes the fundemental core system of the game.
Try thinking of it from a different perspective. Do you think LA could suddenly take the IP licsence away from SOE? Do you not think that SOE has a binding contract to use that IP? Imagine having to react to a game that's suddenly not Star Wars anymore. SoE surely has their assurances to use LA's IP. Why do we not have those same considerations when we buy the game? Why are we not assured the game we play has a resemblence to the game we purchased?
Pepc, I did not call you a theif, tho i can see how I may be interpreted that way. So let me clairify. I feel that those who know of and understand the events that occured in SWG ( and apperently are happening in other SOE games) yet still patronize the company, are like a person who knowingly buys stolen goods so as to save a little cash. Did they steal the items, no; did they make the theif go out to do it, no; do they give the villans profit and therefore encouragement to continue, certainly. Am I more than a little unforgiving and inflexible in these opinions, yup. But then I'm not the one in another group of peoples forums telling them how to think.
And don't get me wrong either Saay. I know you cannot have a game that doesn't make some changes. But just like Raston pointed out there has got to be some middleground here. A skill based system exchanged for a level based system is taking a change too far IMO as it changes the fundemental core system of the game.
Try thinking of it from a different perspective. Do you think LA could suddenly take the IP licsence away from SOE? Do you not think that SOE has a binding contract to use that IP? Imagine having to react to a game that's suddenly not Star Wars anymore. SoE surely has their assurances to use LA's IP. Why do we not have those same considerations when we buy the game? Why are we not assured the game we play has a resemblence to the game we purchased?
Because they've got millions of dollars on the line in a huge franchise that they built up, whereas we can choose to stop paying when we want with no further consequences (the exception being those that paid 1 year subs; yet they can still stop after than period). I changing the system from skill based to level based was bad - but what if another MMO came out, many loved it for lots of it's features, but disliked the fact that it was level based - under such regulations, they wouldnt be able to change it to skill-based for the greater good. However i do see your point and understand you, but as ive said, i think there would be large detrimental effects.
A franchise, that, incidentally, SOE and LEC flushed down the toilet with the NGE. They've lost tens of millions of dollars in lost sub revenue. Why did they lose that money? The NGE. What will never bring that money back? The NGE.
If I were running a MMO development house, and LEC approached me about buying the rights to do a Star Wars MMO, I'd laugh in their faces. I'd ask them how much they'd be preparing to pay ME to do such a thing.
Given the reputation now associated with Star Wars as a MMO, it's going to take YEARS for it to recover to the value it once had as a MMO IP.
You lacking to understand the keyword "respect" regarding any change in the MMO.
If the majority of the customers loves all the features and dislike one of them , then there is absolutely a change IN RESPECT to customer wishes possible and eventually necessary so that disliked feature get whiped.
NGE was a change with NO RESPECT towards the wishes of the community that is what is unethical andhas to be expressed in formal law so no sucker again has a chance to betray me.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Jeff Freeman, one of the managers involved in the NGE development, admitted that the existing subscribers were NOT EVEN A CONSIDERATION with respect to the changes made with the NGE. They went into it WITH THE ASSUMPTION WE'D ALL LEAVE!
Which made it easy to be deaf.
The realization that they weren't gods probably caused some nervous breakdowns amongst some of them when Spring 2006 rolled around and all they had was a greatly diminished remnant of the pre NGE player base and no new customers at all.
44,850,000
You might wonder why that number is relevant to this conversation, so I'll repeat it again
44,850,000
yes, that is almost 45 million...
oh, and btw, that is in dollars.
That is the revenue off of 250k people at 14.95 a month, annually
Take that into consideration about what SOE said they thought of the current players of SWG, the ones they didn't listen to and were irrelevant in their dicussions about and dealing with the major and unethical alteration of a game.
Let us say, for the sake of argument that they still have 50k players left. That would be revenues of 8,970,000. That is a FAR cry from the potential that preCU had in terms of revenue, especially when you consider the cost in development time into the equation.
Sad is what it is really, really, really sad. Greed is the green eyed monster and it bit SOE squarely on the ass.
Interesting clinical look at the numbers. Now if we are doing clinical looks, don't forget the fact that the pre-cu was not wow-friendly, and at the time the available mmo options were limited. We all know now that the masses prefer lame wow-like clones.. do you really think they would have stuck it out on swg with these newer things around? 50k at this point in swg's life cycle is actually rather good, even if it was still in its original form. Better it be closer to 0 though, that way it can go the way of most old mmos, and someone new can come around with the license (and did you really think that new dev team would not also make a wow-clone crapfeast? of course they would.. especially a big name like say.. bioware.)
The difference is covered by lowering the costs by firing the talented people and keep the untalented like toilet boy lol
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Interesting clinical look at the numbers. Now if we are doing clinical looks, don't forget the fact that the pre-cu was not wow-friendly, and at the time the available mmo options were limited. We all know now that the masses prefer lame wow-like clones.. do you really think they would have stuck it out on swg with these newer things around? 50k at this point in swg's life cycle is actually rather good, even if it was still in its original form. Better it be closer to 0 though, that way it can go the way of most old mmos, and someone new can come around with the license (and did you really think that new dev team would not also make a wow-clone crapfeast? of course they would.. especially a big name like say.. bioware.)
Actually, I think they might of actually grown some as those who got tired of the WoW crap looked for some other place to go. Look at games like EVE to see this kind of trend. Would it ever been beyond a niche game? No, probably not, but I honestly think they may of had at minimum 250k still subscribed if they hadn't NGE'd the game, maybe as high as 350k.
The other way to look at it is like this however. Most of that 200k quit pretty quickly after NGE rather than on a decaying/attribution basis, so that was a drastic shock of revenue. And given the fact that they haven't really dropped the number of servers, many of their fixed costs wouldn't of changed as much dealing with that aspect. They probably saw some benefit from the sudden reduction of bandwidth need, but given the constantly dropping cost of bandwidth, that probably wouldn't of been a major savings aspect, certainly not offset against the revenue drop.
Personally, I would of gone back to SWG a while back, but I hate the new game they have. As the saying goes, why play a WoW clone when you can play the real thing? (and yes, I know that WoW is really a easy mode clone of DAoC which is an easy mode close of EQ).
There are now and always will be enough of a market (should someone go after it) for the non EQ style of MMORPGs out there. Because there will always be though who seek more than whakamole in their gaming experience.
You lacking to understand the keyword "respect" regarding any change in the MMO.
If the majority of the customers loves all the features and dislike one of them , then there is absolutely a change IN RESPECT to customer wishes possible and eventually necessary so that disliked feature get whiped.
NGE was a change with NO RESPECT towards the wishes of the community that is what is unethical andhas to be expressed in formal law so no sucker again has a chance to betray me.
You are not understanding my point though - that if a rule like that was put in place, other MMOs might not be able to change for the better, unless they created some sort of game-wide consent voting system based in law, which is, well unlikely as i see it, the law doesnt usually do things like that and the logistics would be tricky, but i guess it could work though, id have to think about it.
that is just it, I don't think there should be major changes to the mechanics. If you want major changes, make a new game with those major changes and call it a sequel. I don't care a majority of the player base wants it or not, you don't go changing major game features after release, that is what alpha/beta is for.
Indeed such a game-wide consent voting system
would be a good idea.
Btw this could work as a general next gen MMO invention too.
Customers voting for the directions of development process and how and in which direction they like to see their online world evolve. I think in some point in the feature this will be common in MMO.
This concept gets more and more ground in TV show entertainment already.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
A product get always recognised for some origin key-features it wouldn't be wise to change them.
But i see the problem of an MMO as an dynamic system sometimes requiring changes.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)