that is just it, I don't think there should be major changes to the mechanics. If you want major changes, make a new game with those major changes and call it a sequel. I don't care a majority of the player base wants it or not, you don't go changing major game features after release, that is what alpha/beta is for.
A product get always recognised for some origin key-features it wouldn't be wise to change them.
But i see the problem of an MMO as an dynamic system sometimes requiring changes.
Aye, note my statement further above. I disagree with MAJOR changes to mechanics, specifically gameplay mechanics. Upgrade the engine all you want. ADD new features all you want, but once you release, do not make major (seriously gameplay altering ones) changes to the core gameplay.
Balance, content and tweaks and bug fixes are going to be constants in the mmo world, but you should ever log in one day to find that everything about your character is different than the day before simply because of gameplay changes.
that is just it, I don't think there should be major changes to the mechanics. If you want major changes, make a new game with those major changes and call it a sequel. I don't care a majority of the player base wants it or not, you don't go changing major game features after release, that is what alpha/beta is for.
A product get always recognised for some origin key-features it wouldn't be wise to change them.
But i see the problem of an MMO as an dynamic system sometimes requiring changes.
Aye, note my statement further above. I disagree with MAJOR changes to mechanics, specifically gameplay mechanics. Upgrade the engine all you want. ADD new features all you want, but once you release, do not make major (seriously gameplay altering ones) changes to the core gameplay.
Balance, content and tweaks and bug fixes are going to be constants in the mmo world, but you should ever log in one day to find that everything about your character is different than the day before simply because of gameplay changes.
MMO's can and should be modified over time for a number of valid reasons: fix bugs, add content, address game-play "issues" that are not bugs per se but make the game difficult to play (bad UI), ridiculously easy, or impossibly hard. Most of these issues should (and by many companies now are) addressed in beta.
If, however, after a game goes live a company needs to improve (actually, not in marketting speak only) the UI, fix bugs, add content, add challenge etc.. This is not a problem. With player feedback and collaboration, these changes over time are not only expected, they are welcome. Good regulation of business practices would not interfere with this.
SOE didn't do any of the above with the NGE. They didn't add content, they removed months worth of playing content and years worth of playing progress. They didn't improve the UI, they made it more difficult for people to play, and impossible for some with certain physical challenges. They didn't fix bugs; they deleted some things that weren't working, many more that were, and added even more bugs than the game had to begin with. They didn't correct balance issues, they made the game ridiculously easy, and unrealistically paced. The hyperkinetic pace has been cited as a contributing factor to lag increase, which further reduced player satisfaction. Changes were not made in collaboration with players. They were made, in fact, outside the awareness of players, and player feedback was according to Jeff Freeman (former SOE staff) irrelevant. Not only was player feedback not relevant, players were knowlingly misdirected regarding the future of the game re. the Trials of Obi Wan.
So, all those things players would want companies to be able to do to improve games over time, have absolutely nothing (I'll say it again for emphasis) ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with what SOE did to its game via the New Game "enhancements." Any regulations that are legislated in this field would be designed to address SOE's unethical business practices, period. They would not be designed to interfere with actual improvements gaming companies can make to a live game. SOE's "enhancements" were nothing of the sort. In fact I'd allege that the use of the term was a flimsy attempt to justify unehical behaviour by citing the user agreement, which mentions that they game may be "enhanced" over time, I believe.
Why so many vets sit in here day in and day out saying SOE sucks this and sucks that. You also have sigs that say pull the plug on SWG and this and that. If you want the game to die then stop talking about it. Dont forget free publicity is good publicity be it bad or good. Look at holywood stars... they get more attention when they hit cars get drunk do drugs and suicide then they do by donating millions to orphans. The really sad thing is all you who complain and all who constantly bitch will jump right back into SWG if there were to make a so called classic server. Frankly there is nothing wrong with this version. Get over it games change everything has to change and evolve. Let the flames begin lol. PS my interface, controls and play is identicle to the way it was set up before NGE meaning that the controls and crap most cry about can be changed, then you say i shouldnt have to change it well to bad do it lol. Did you know that u dont need to use the cross hair.... Press t and its like back to normal.
I'm not going to flame. I'll just say your post is extraordinarily obtuse. Why are you in here, flaming the flamers? Surely you have better things to do? Of course you don't. Just like the rest of us.
SWG was an amazing game, one that didn't try to be anything other than what it was.
It wasn't a WoW/DDO/EQ2/LOTR clone, nor did it try to be.
To suddenly try and mold it into something more like the aforementioned games to a 200,000 person playerbase was business suicide.
Take it or leave it, but that's what happened. The game is crap now compared to what it was, and most (not all) of the veterans who stay (like me) or who come online once every few months when SOE throws us a beg-o-bone (15 day trial) are there for sentimental reasons only, including keeping in touch with friends, and exploring old haunts.
Any good manager of a corporation will tell you that any major changes to his or her business have to be implemented slowly so as not to shock the morale of his workers and decrease their productivity. The same can be said of the thousands that left SWG to pursue games that were actually entertaining. After all, why play a WoW clone when you can play WoW?
Why so many vets sit in here day in and day out saying SOE sucks this and sucks that. You also have sigs that say pull the plug on SWG and this and that. If you want the game to die then stop talking about it. Dont forget free publicity is good publicity be it bad or good. Look at holywood stars... they get more attention when they hit cars get drunk do drugs and suicide then they do by donating millions to orphans. The really sad thing is all you who complain and all who constantly bitch will jump right back into SWG if there were to make a so called classic server. Frankly there is nothing wrong with this version. Get over it games change everything has to change and evolve. Let the flames begin lol. PS my interface, controls and play is identicle to the way it was set up before NGE meaning that the controls and crap most cry about can be changed, then you say i shouldnt have to change it well to bad do it lol. Did you know that u dont need to use the cross hair.... Press t and its like back to normal.
Go ask John Smedley if "bad news is good news" when the NGE launched. Go ask him if people being negative about SWG is a boon to subscriptions.
You see, with celebrities, many of them are trying to sell THEMSELVES, in the hopes they can get more entertainment opportunities. You don't sell another PRODUCT with nothing but negativity surrounding it.
This is why economics is a "dry science." The rules of entertainment do not apply to it.
I'm glad you think there is nothing wrong with this version. This puts you in the minority of even NGE players. So go enjoy your game, and don't whine about people whining.
Why so many vets sit in here day in and day out saying SOE sucks this and sucks that. You also have sigs that say pull the plug on SWG and this and that. If you want the game to die then stop talking about it. Dont forget free publicity is good publicity be it bad or good. Look at holywood stars... they get more attention when they hit cars get drunk do drugs and suicide then they do by donating millions to orphans. The really sad thing is all you who complain and all who constantly bitch will jump right back into SWG if there were to make a so called classic server. Frankly there is nothing wrong with this version. Get over it games change everything has to change and evolve. Let the flames begin lol. PS my interface, controls and play is identicle to the way it was set up before NGE meaning that the controls and crap most cry about can be changed, then you say i shouldnt have to change it well to bad do it lol. Did you know that u dont need to use the cross hair.... Press t and its like back to normal.
No need to flame you but I will respond to your post...
It's really more complicated than your simplistic point of view dicates.
1.) This was a virtual world in which people invested their time and their emotion.
2.) SOE/LA acted in a borderline illegal manner with the expansions hitting JUST before the NGE, which was developed in TOTAL secret from the playerbase.
There is no question that SOE/LA acted 100% unethically, but it also stands to reason they broke the law. The term "the Law" is thrown around but SOE rightly could have been sued (and I honestly am surprised they weren't) for the fact that SWG, as an MMO, is traded from State to State within the USA. Now SOE is dealing with Federal Law, not just each individual state.
The ONLY reason SOE wasn't immediately hit with a class action suit is because MMO gaming is still fairly new and internet laws haven't even scratched the surface of what they will someday involve.
The SWG Pre-CU playerbase bought a game, invested millions of hours into a virtual world that was unexpectedly taken from them and replaced by something they DID NOT purchase nor invest time into.
Someday this will most likely be a violation of "the Law" itself. However, for the purposes of 2005 SOE got off the hook. Still, they did break the law when they performed a "bait-and-switch" tactic on their customers.
SWG Veterans are smart gamers and for the most part I have seen, smart people. Their efforts to avenge the way they were treated has been successful. Most of the gamers on this planet don't trust SOE, they won't play SWG, and they will have reservations about playing an SOE game again.
While i understand your view completely, and believe me i would have, and did, say the same thing when the NGE hit - the reason why they werent sued, nor will games be sued for this, is that it is there right - they didnt take anything from you, (well apart from those who subscribed on a yearly basis, but that was their risk) although we all invested time in the game, in the end it wasnt really investing it, it was simply using the time to enjoy the entertainment an MMO provides - as soon as you stop paying (due to the NGE), you havent, in the law's and in the MMO companies' eyes, lost anything. Now although there actions may have been unethical in many's views, they didnt break the law, and if laws prohibiting this were enforced, the MMO industry, i believe, would be badly hit, because it would take control out of investor's hands (companies), which they wont like, and consequently there will be less investment. Unfortunately, they are and, i suspect, will be allowed to keep anything they have planned a total secret if they want. (the whole "CU is here to stay" issue is a bit more debatable, and is, i suppose, potentially in some ways illegal)
Then why were refunds given? They specifically promoted things in the game that they knew they were taking away, and had been developing for 6 months the removal of these things. That is about as textbook a case as "bait and switch" as you get. Had they not had given out a refund, they very well probably would've been sued, or at least the BBB would've launched a nice investigation on them.
SWG Veterans are smart gamers and for the most part I have seen, smart people. Their efforts to avenge the way they were treated has been successful. Most of the gamers on this planet don't trust SOE, they won't play SWG, and they will have reservations about playing an SOE game again.
While I have a lot of sympathy for your viewpoint and won't go back to SWG myself, I still must point out that this last paragraph is hard to quantify. Sucessful how? I don't doubt SOE are still making cash, EQ2 is still doing well and they will still be making money of SWG's new players. Plus, I seriously doubt that 'most gamers on this planet' ever even visit these forums
No - SWG Vets may have blown off steam and given vent to their anger here (no bad thing) and made many good cases for classic servers and the like (and yes, I would probably resub to play on them) but don't kid yourself that any meaningful revenge has been enacted upon SOE, or (to be blunt) that the majority of non-SWG players give a rats ass one way or the other.....
I respectfully disagree with some of what you said.
I DO agree that most people don't care about SWG at all. However, the drastic backlash that SOE suffered on the internet from SWG Veterans has been substantial, to say the least.
Vets have been vocal. Blog after blog has reached thousands of readers and the outlook as whole, on SWG, has been biased by the reaction of these Vets. Don't sell their voice short. They have had success.
SOE isn't making that much money off of SWG, if any.
Thanks for the polite response - I don't mean to sell the vet's short, for sure. I admire that people are passionate enough about a game to be so vocal. I'll even agree that SWG has probably suffered as a direct result of the ire of the vets...
I guess I just don't think that SOE overall are going to be noticably troubled by the anger of the Vets, as they do have other games to rely on - games that are generally doign OK - even if SWG disappears off the radar. And I also think that, as time goes by, people simply aren't going to be put of future SOE games because of the Vet's anger at SOE, however justifiable that anger is. SWG is pretty much (as far as I can tell) already regarded (perhaps due to the vocal activity of the Vets, arguably) as a dated game; great in it's day but already fading from gaming conciousness. And as it fades the relevance of the Vet's anger, to other gamers at least, fades also....
My opinion, of course, and I do respect your right to disagree. I wish you well.
I would simply say look at the uproar caused over Pirates of the Burning Sea, when FLS struck a partnership simply in publishing with SOE. Simply having their name mentioned in the same sentence was enough to scare off thousands of customers.
Refunds were given for TOOW because the lawyers told Smed and Ward that they might face "conjugal" visits with Bubba in a Federal "pound me in the ass" prison for corporate fraud if they didn't.
No other reason.
The way the expansion was marketed with the NGE happening under cover was the clearest cut open and shut case for interstate and international fraud ever in the history of gaming.
Considering that they were marketing stuff for professions that were going to be deleted just weeks prior to the NGE, and that they waited UNTIL THE DAY AFTER we were charged for the expansion to announce this deletion, they knew that the expansion was a fraud.
Their only defense possible to that charge would have been if the NGE literally was designed, approved, and announced in a day. Sorta plausible given how horridly designed and buggy it was and still is...
I guess I just don't think that SOE overall are going to be noticably troubled by the anger of the Vets, as they do have other games to rely on - games that are generally doign OK - even if SWG disappears off the radar.
SOE notices. Whether or not they have ever been troubled by it remains to be seen. I'm sure all the accounts they lost and didn't gain back in new accounts has hit them pretty hard.
The reason the Vets are so justifiably (imo) angry is that there are no other games out there like SWG today. I can't think of a single one. EvE online is extremely monotonous, and strictly space-based. All the popular MMOs are based on the same ubiquitous linear leveling system. SWG was unique in this regard. It was unique in many regards, and all of those unique points were removed by SOE in one massive decapitation, with no request for feedback from the players. SOE then went public and stated opinions that completely did not reflect those of the playerbase. I could get into so many other ways SWG was unique, but that will simply anger me, and I don't wish this to turn into a borderline-flame.
I'm just trying to offer a viewpoint in answer to this.
Hi I too played SWG up till NGE and completely agree with a lot of the arguments put forward.
I would be interested to know whether SOE are protected by stating "Game Experience May Change DUring Online Play" on the game case
I always thought this was connected to the rating system as in "because we can not completely control what people do, the content of the game as created by the company may be rated 'T' but, upon going online, player may be exposed to 'AO' material." Also figured it covered changes made by others: player cities come and go, new buildings get placed, the vendor you spent so much time last play session hunting down may now be gone, the group you played with last time may not be online this time, etc. (changes that would not occur during most solo games because the game saves as it was last played except in some games like "Animal Crossing" where some changes do occur between playing due to a "real time" type of system but even in games like these the change is not as major as it is in an online game).
Comments
A product get always recognised for some origin key-features it wouldn't be wise to change them.
But i see the problem of an MMO as an dynamic system sometimes requiring changes.
Aye, note my statement further above. I disagree with MAJOR changes to mechanics, specifically gameplay mechanics. Upgrade the engine all you want. ADD new features all you want, but once you release, do not make major (seriously gameplay altering ones) changes to the core gameplay.
Balance, content and tweaks and bug fixes are going to be constants in the mmo world, but you should ever log in one day to find that everything about your character is different than the day before simply because of gameplay changes.
A product get always recognised for some origin key-features it wouldn't be wise to change them.
But i see the problem of an MMO as an dynamic system sometimes requiring changes.
Aye, note my statement further above. I disagree with MAJOR changes to mechanics, specifically gameplay mechanics. Upgrade the engine all you want. ADD new features all you want, but once you release, do not make major (seriously gameplay altering ones) changes to the core gameplay.
Balance, content and tweaks and bug fixes are going to be constants in the mmo world, but you should ever log in one day to find that everything about your character is different than the day before simply because of gameplay changes.
MMO's can and should be modified over time for a number of valid reasons: fix bugs, add content, address game-play "issues" that are not bugs per se but make the game difficult to play (bad UI), ridiculously easy, or impossibly hard. Most of these issues should (and by many companies now are) addressed in beta.
If, however, after a game goes live a company needs to improve (actually, not in marketting speak only) the UI, fix bugs, add content, add challenge etc.. This is not a problem. With player feedback and collaboration, these changes over time are not only expected, they are welcome. Good regulation of business practices would not interfere with this.
SOE didn't do any of the above with the NGE. They didn't add content, they removed months worth of playing content and years worth of playing progress. They didn't improve the UI, they made it more difficult for people to play, and impossible for some with certain physical challenges. They didn't fix bugs; they deleted some things that weren't working, many more that were, and added even more bugs than the game had to begin with. They didn't correct balance issues, they made the game ridiculously easy, and unrealistically paced. The hyperkinetic pace has been cited as a contributing factor to lag increase, which further reduced player satisfaction. Changes were not made in collaboration with players. They were made, in fact, outside the awareness of players, and player feedback was according to Jeff Freeman (former SOE staff) irrelevant. Not only was player feedback not relevant, players were knowlingly misdirected regarding the future of the game re. the Trials of Obi Wan.
So, all those things players would want companies to be able to do to improve games over time, have absolutely nothing (I'll say it again for emphasis) ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with what SOE did to its game via the New Game "enhancements." Any regulations that are legislated in this field would be designed to address SOE's unethical business practices, period. They would not be designed to interfere with actual improvements gaming companies can make to a live game. SOE's "enhancements" were nothing of the sort. In fact I'd allege that the use of the term was a flimsy attempt to justify unehical behaviour by citing the user agreement, which mentions that they game may be "enhanced" over time, I believe.
SWG was an amazing game, one that didn't try to be anything other than what it was.
It wasn't a WoW/DDO/EQ2/LOTR clone, nor did it try to be.
To suddenly try and mold it into something more like the aforementioned games to a 200,000 person playerbase was business suicide.
Take it or leave it, but that's what happened. The game is crap now compared to what it was, and most (not all) of the veterans who stay (like me) or who come online once every few months when SOE throws us a beg-o-bone (15 day trial) are there for sentimental reasons only, including keeping in touch with friends, and exploring old haunts.
Any good manager of a corporation will tell you that any major changes to his or her business have to be implemented slowly so as not to shock the morale of his workers and decrease their productivity. The same can be said of the thousands that left SWG to pursue games that were actually entertaining. After all, why play a WoW clone when you can play WoW?
Go ask John Smedley if "bad news is good news" when the NGE launched. Go ask him if people being negative about SWG is a boon to subscriptions.
You see, with celebrities, many of them are trying to sell THEMSELVES, in the hopes they can get more entertainment opportunities. You don't sell another PRODUCT with nothing but negativity surrounding it.
This is why economics is a "dry science." The rules of entertainment do not apply to it.
I'm glad you think there is nothing wrong with this version. This puts you in the minority of even NGE players.
So go enjoy your game, and don't whine about people whining.
Good day.....
No need to flame you but I will respond to your post...
It's really more complicated than your simplistic point of view dicates.
1.) This was a virtual world in which people invested their time and their emotion.
2.) SOE/LA acted in a borderline illegal manner with the expansions hitting JUST before the NGE, which was developed in TOTAL secret from the playerbase.
There is no question that SOE/LA acted 100% unethically, but it also stands to reason they broke the law. The term "the Law" is thrown around but SOE rightly could have been sued (and I honestly am surprised they weren't) for the fact that SWG, as an MMO, is traded from State to State within the USA. Now SOE is dealing with Federal Law, not just each individual state.
The ONLY reason SOE wasn't immediately hit with a class action suit is because MMO gaming is still fairly new and internet laws haven't even scratched the surface of what they will someday involve.
The SWG Pre-CU playerbase bought a game, invested millions of hours into a virtual world that was unexpectedly taken from them and replaced by something they DID NOT purchase nor invest time into.
Someday this will most likely be a violation of "the Law" itself. However, for the purposes of 2005 SOE got off the hook. Still, they did break the law when they performed a "bait-and-switch" tactic on their customers.
SWG Veterans are smart gamers and for the most part I have seen, smart people. Their efforts to avenge the way they were treated has been successful. Most of the gamers on this planet don't trust SOE, they won't play SWG, and they will have reservations about playing an SOE game again.
While i understand your view completely, and believe me i would have, and did, say the same thing when the NGE hit - the reason why they werent sued, nor will games be sued for this, is that it is there right - they didnt take anything from you, (well apart from those who subscribed on a yearly basis, but that was their risk) although we all invested time in the game, in the end it wasnt really investing it, it was simply using the time to enjoy the entertainment an MMO provides - as soon as you stop paying (due to the NGE), you havent, in the law's and in the MMO companies' eyes, lost anything. Now although there actions may have been unethical in many's views, they didnt break the law, and if laws prohibiting this were enforced, the MMO industry, i believe, would be badly hit, because it would take control out of investor's hands (companies), which they wont like, and consequently there will be less investment. Unfortunately, they are and, i suspect, will be allowed to keep anything they have planned a total secret if they want. (the whole "CU is here to stay" issue is a bit more debatable, and is, i suppose, potentially in some ways illegal)
Then why were refunds given? They specifically promoted things in the game that they knew they were taking away, and had been developing for 6 months the removal of these things. That is about as textbook a case as "bait and switch" as you get. Had they not had given out a refund, they very well probably would've been sued, or at least the BBB would've launched a nice investigation on them.
SWG Veterans are smart gamers and for the most part I have seen, smart people. Their efforts to avenge the way they were treated has been successful. Most of the gamers on this planet don't trust SOE, they won't play SWG, and they will have reservations about playing an SOE game again.
While I have a lot of sympathy for your viewpoint and won't go back to SWG myself, I still must point out that this last paragraph is hard to quantify. Sucessful how? I don't doubt SOE are still making cash, EQ2 is still doing well and they will still be making money of SWG's new players. Plus, I seriously doubt that 'most gamers on this planet' ever even visit these forums
No - SWG Vets may have blown off steam and given vent to their anger here (no bad thing) and made many good cases for classic servers and the like (and yes, I would probably resub to play on them) but don't kid yourself that any meaningful revenge has been enacted upon SOE, or (to be blunt) that the majority of non-SWG players give a rats ass one way or the other.....
I respectfully disagree with some of what you said.
I DO agree that most people don't care about SWG at all. However, the drastic backlash that SOE suffered on the internet from SWG Veterans has been substantial, to say the least.
Vets have been vocal. Blog after blog has reached thousands of readers and the outlook as whole, on SWG, has been biased by the reaction of these Vets. Don't sell their voice short. They have had success.
SOE isn't making that much money off of SWG, if any.
Thanks for the polite response - I don't mean to sell the vet's short, for sure. I admire that people are passionate enough about a game to be so vocal. I'll even agree that SWG has probably suffered as a direct result of the ire of the vets...
I guess I just don't think that SOE overall are going to be noticably troubled by the anger of the Vets, as they do have other games to rely on - games that are generally doign OK - even if SWG disappears off the radar. And I also think that, as time goes by, people simply aren't going to be put of future SOE games because of the Vet's anger at SOE, however justifiable that anger is. SWG is pretty much (as far as I can tell) already regarded (perhaps due to the vocal activity of the Vets, arguably) as a dated game; great in it's day but already fading from gaming conciousness. And as it fades the relevance of the Vet's anger, to other gamers at least, fades also....
My opinion, of course, and I do respect your right to disagree. I wish you well.
I would simply say look at the uproar caused over Pirates of the Burning Sea, when FLS struck a partnership simply in publishing with SOE. Simply having their name mentioned in the same sentence was enough to scare off thousands of customers.
Refunds were given for TOOW because the lawyers told Smed and Ward that they might face "conjugal" visits with Bubba in a Federal "pound me in the ass" prison for corporate fraud if they didn't.
No other reason.
The way the expansion was marketed with the NGE happening under cover was the clearest cut open and shut case for interstate and international fraud ever in the history of gaming.
Considering that they were marketing stuff for professions that were going to be deleted just weeks prior to the NGE, and that they waited UNTIL THE DAY AFTER we were charged for the expansion to announce this deletion, they knew that the expansion was a fraud.
Their only defense possible to that charge would have been if the NGE literally was designed, approved, and announced in a day. Sorta plausible given how horridly designed and buggy it was and still is...
The reason the Vets are so justifiably (imo) angry is that there are no other games out there like SWG today. I can't think of a single one. EvE online is extremely monotonous, and strictly space-based. All the popular MMOs are based on the same ubiquitous linear leveling system. SWG was unique in this regard. It was unique in many regards, and all of those unique points were removed by SOE in one massive decapitation, with no request for feedback from the players. SOE then went public and stated opinions that completely did not reflect those of the playerbase. I could get into so many other ways SWG was unique, but that will simply anger me, and I don't wish this to turn into a borderline-flame.
I'm just trying to offer a viewpoint in answer to this.
I always thought this was connected to the rating system as in "because we can not completely control what people do, the content of the game as created by the company may be rated 'T' but, upon going online, player may be exposed to 'AO' material." Also figured it covered changes made by others: player cities come and go, new buildings get placed, the vendor you spent so much time last play session hunting down may now be gone, the group you played with last time may not be online this time, etc. (changes that would not occur during most solo games because the game saves as it was last played except in some games like "Animal Crossing" where some changes do occur between playing due to a "real time" type of system but even in games like these the change is not as major as it is in an online game).