SOE doesn't do polish. They don't do complete games at launch. SOE is run by MBAs and marketing/sales asshats, who only care about money, not about a quality product, which ironically would actually pay off for them spectacularly. They are tremendously short sighted and small minded. Blizzard has PROVEN this. Still, these greedly little gnomes are so miserly that they refuse to give up any money to those damn nerds who make their business possible. LEC doesn't know enough about gaming (they are all MBAs and marketing asshats) to be able to properly supervise and exploit their own IP as mangled by SOE. This is why just about every decent game that's got "STAR WARS" on it is actually developed somewhere other than LEC.
That's absolutely true. SOE will not do anything that does not provide a recordable revenue within a business quarter - even if it means cannibalising longer term profit potential. That's why it will never produce a game like Blizzard which, it seems to me, plans yeares in advance and therefore, quite rightly, accrues ever higher levels of profit year on year,
And that's what SOE never understood. Blizzard, by all accounts, doesn't make a lot of games. Yet the games they made, had years upon years of development and debate over what they wanted it to be. Things are tested pretty strongly, and if they find bugs, they fix em. They also rely heavily on word of mouth, because their products literally do sell themselves. If a game has "Blizzard" slapped on it, your almost positive its going to be a hit. (I'm honestly trying to think of a real crap game Blizzard made.)
I'm not a huge fan of WoW, but I can certainly understand why it was successful. People were tired of half finished MMO's on release. WoW, with the bad first day notwithstanding, released a finished product. They refused to adhere to popular marketing deadlines. They stated the game would be done when the game would be done. They also had one of the most popular computer IP's there was.
The circumstances that surrounded the success of World of Warcraft are quite honestly a perfect storm. They do not come along frequently. People tried to implement these changes in their games, not recognizing that their game and company have different circumstances and a different culture, and they have all to a man failed (except LOTR, which has done decent.)
Its really hard to believe that the people at SOE didnt know this. They all played blizzard products just like us and still do.
They also know that breaking the promise of a persistant world to mmo players is about the worst thing you could ever do. They learned that when they lost all their EQ players by ruining the persistant world of EQ by making EQ2. What seperates SOE from other dev companies is SOE doesnt learn. They don't learn to a point that you have no other choice but to beleive they are doing it on purpose. People want them to be successful..they have great original ideas..we would love for them to see their mmo's through our eyes and maybe the devs of the individual games to just say "no" sometimes. The players will take care of you and so will your friends.
Maybe SOE will have better luck in their new market:)
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Oh well, when the game gets canned then this long war between the two $OE love and HATE will end finally end. Which I really hope is soon since it seem no communication is taking place at the SWG forums about pretty much anything the communication between the community and the devs as I have dug thru has been getting less so it seems something is going on there insidiously.....
a war that we the vets have already won.
and this war will go on. no game or mmo should be anything like the nge.
Well lets remember, Smedley did make a "mea maxima cupla" about the NGE when they took over Vangaurd. He admitted the NGE was a catastrophic failure, and something they are never trying again. Once he did that, I considered the war over. While a peace may never come, the war itself has been waged, and won. SOE realized finally and publicly they made a huge mistake, and I think they know that mistake will remain with them for years. (Remember when they became the published of POTBS, and everyone ran away?)
I pretty much figured everything's been said, and maybe SOE gets a clue now. BUT then I saw what they did to Vanguard and read about players requests for classic servers over there. And once in a while I read some post over here soaked with denial that says someone forced SOE to push the NGE, or that it was a necessary solution to SWG's population bleed. Some people even try to say it was a good idea, and that players are just crybabies for no reason. Whatevs.
Actually, you've pretty simply shown that SOE is far worse than any of those, then claim that they are all the same. Guess that settles it. You obviously favor SOE. None of those things are even remotely as unethical as whta SOE did to its customers.
I just figured out where our disconnect is. You're sense of ethics is so out of wack it's rediculous. So what you're saying is it would have been better and more ethical for SOE to cancel the whole game after selling their expansion like Turbine did? And somehow that makes sense to you right?. Selling friggin' personal information after promising you wouldn't seems pretty ethical to you? Hell that's boarderline illegal.
We must also note you come here to the SWG Veterans Refuge to defend SOE 9all the while falsely saying you are NOT defending SOE) and attack LEC, making false claims about responsibilities.
First, if you don't want to discuss or hear opposing viewpoints, what they hell are you doing on a forum? And speaking of not reading, I have repeatedly said SOE shares part of the responsibilty for the NGE. I've said that I put MORE blame on the boss who approved the NGE than the worker who made it. You don't agree, I'm all right with that. As far as false claims, I've told you EXACTLY where to look to verify my claims. Just because you're too lazy to actually look, doesn't make my claims false.
You the spend pages not really reading the responses, not really responding to the responses, ignoring all evidence, and STILL defend SOE.
You're right I ignore most posts. The ones that can't intelligently state their position or provide links or actual proof, you're pretty much going to get ignored (explains why I don't respond to may of yours doesn't it?).
It has nothing to do with what you play or whose games you may or may not enjoy. For some reason, you feel it necessary to blame LEC for the NGE, when it is mostly SOE's fault.
And you blindly blame SOE because it's what you heard on the internet so it must be true instead of looking at the evidence for yourself. You don't "look" around to see what's going on. You don't bother to look up opposing evidence you're presented with, and you simply regurgitate what you've heard from some other poster. If it bashes SOE regardless of what's said, it must be true. In your eyes LucasArts is all that's goodly and pure, and SOE is evil. You absolutely refuse to believe anything no matter what anyone says or does to prove otherwise. Why don't you take some time and try to dredge up information on LucasArts. Take a look at how many companies absolutely HATE working with them, and how many will refuse to do it. Take a look at how many people say LucasArts is a control freak. A CONTROL FREAK.
Yes, LEC approved of it, andthey shouldn't have, but SOE came up with the idea, pushed for it, got LEC to agree to it, and then did it, therefore the lion's share of the blame goes to them. yet for some strange reason you spend pages trying to shift blame for them. That's why it is easy to see whose side you're on.
Yes it would sound like that, unless you, I don't know, actually READ my posts.
Originally posted by Jodokai You're right I ignore most posts. The ones that can't intelligently state their position or provide links or actual proof, you're pretty much going to get ignored (explains why I don't respond to may of yours doesn't it?).
And what proof have you posted? Put up or shut up, tough guy.
Smed did try to pin blame on LA. He said the NGE was designed straight off the focus group testing results. Focus groups that originated from LA.
The focus group testing in the summer of '05 were certainly run by LEC. I had a bad feeling about those as soon as I read the setup: in the middle of the day, in the middle of the week, in the middle of the summer. Now honestly, who do you think would be available to attend these focus sessions? Yeah that's right, kids on summer vacation. So I was smelling a rat even before I read the first-hand account of a player who tried to get in. After some preliminary questionaires, he was rejected. The people running the focus group told him flat-out that, at age 28 or 30 I think, he was too old and not the demographic of interest to them.
I'm no expert on Turbine and AC2, but the game was shut down because it was not profitable to keep open at the subscriber numbers it had. I don't think it was some devious master plan by turbine to invest a large amount of money to develope, producer and ship a retail expansion for the game just to swindle the subscriber base (which was already to small to be profitable).
To me it sounds like Turbine invested a lot of money to try to revive the game, which is a good thing no? it isn't like they announced the game was shutting down the day after people bought the expansion because for the previous months they were planning on shutting the game down. It really sounds like Turbine was acting in the best interest of the players (and company at the same time) by trying to revitalize the game.
I'm not familiar with the selling of personal information. Was it open market selling or the 3rd party affiliate type thing? (neither of which I care for to be honest, but I'm interested to see details).
Originally posted by Jodokai You're right I ignore most posts. The ones that can't intelligently state their position or provide links or actual proof, you're pretty much going to get ignored (explains why I don't respond to may of yours doesn't it?).
And what proof have you posted? Put up or shut up, tough guy.
Again, you might try reading my posts before you open your mouth.
I just figured out where our disconnect is. You're sense of ethics is so out of wack it's rediculous. So what you're saying is it would have been better and more ethical for SOE to cancel the whole game after selling their expansion like Turbine did? And somehow that makes sense to you right?. Selling friggin' personal information after promising you wouldn't seems pretty ethical to you? Hell that's boarderline illegal.
First, if you don't want to discuss or hear opposing viewpoints, what they hell are you doing on a forum? And speaking of not reading, I have repeatedly said SOE shares part of the responsibilty for the NGE. I've said that I put MORE blame on the boss who approved the NGE than the worker who made it. You don't agree, I'm all right with that. As far as false claims, I've told you EXACTLY where to look to verify my claims. Just because you're too lazy to actually look, doesn't make my claims false.
You're right I ignore most posts. The ones that can't intelligently state their position or provide links or actual proof, you're pretty much going to get ignored (explains why I don't respond to may of yours doesn't it?).
And you blindly blame SOE because it's what you heard on the internet so it must be true instead of looking at the evidence for yourself. You don't "look" around to see what's going on. You don't bother to look up opposing evidence you're presented with, and you simply regurgitate what you've heard from some other poster. If it bashes SOE regardless of what's said, it must be true. In your eyes LucasArts is all that's goodly and pure, and SOE is evil. You absolutely refuse to believe anything no matter what anyone says or does to prove otherwise. Why don't you take some time and try to dredge up information on LucasArts. Take a look at how many companies absolutely HATE working with them, and how many will refuse to do it. Take a look at how many people say LucasArts is a control freak. A CONTROL FREAK.
Yes it would sound like that, unless you, I don't know, actually READ my posts.
Jodokai, I read your posts, and have a question for you: If you are the producer here, and let's say that what Brenlo and Jeff Freeman posted are true. (NGE, at least the fast-action third-person semi-FPS was Freeman's design) So you will get the blame when push comes to shove due to you said to the developers (SOE) to make the game better?
Just wondering if that's your logical argument....
LucasArts want a game with Star Wars tag on it to sell better, that's not necessary "bad", unless the design or the changes made to it were idiotic. But who's to get the fault here? One who wants to have better product, or one who think up crappy design?
For many people, since we do not necessary know what was the order of their communication steps (so it could be SOE thought up better ways to "improve" SWG, and push the idea to be approve by Lucas). Who's to say that's not exactly what happened? We do not have data on that. All information we have gathered are the Brenlo post and Freeman blog post, and some Smed interviews showing SOE being the one making the CU/NGE. So if you think "Lucas must be behind this since Star Wars is their IP and they have a lot of control over it," that's fine. But all other visible, open information that people can interpret points the design at SOE, and for gamers, it's the design that is at fault, not the thought of wanting the game to be better.
Just want to point that out. And your post bring NO EVIDENCE to show how it was Lucas that made the decision, and trust me, I spend time reading your posts and search on what was in it... I am not saying Lucas isn't at fault here. Those who were approving the CU and NGE are truly idiots and should never work in the genre of MMORPG. But again, the important issue for gamers is the basic "Is the game fun for me?" This falls into the design of the game-play, which was screwed up by SOE first, approved by Lucas.
I'm no expert on Turbine and AC2, but the game was shut down because it was not profitable to keep open at the subscriber numbers it had. I don't think it was some devious master plan by turbine to invest a large amount of money to develope, producer and ship a retail expansion for the game just to swindle the subscriber base (which was already to small to be profitable). To me it sounds like Turbine invested a lot of money to try to revive the game, which is a good thing no? it isn't like they announced the game was shutting down the day after people bought the expansion because for the previous months they were planning on shutting the game down. It really sounds like Turbine was acting in the best interest of the players (and company at the same time) by trying to revitalize the game.
I'm not familiar with the selling of personal information. Was it open market selling or the 3rd party affiliate type thing? (neither of which I care for to be honest, but I'm interested to see details).
Turbine released an expansion, promised more expansions were on the way. Waited a few months for sales on the expansion to die off they announced the canceling of the game. You're probably right, they did it with the best of intentions, but how is it better than what SOE did? Do you honestly believe SOE said "Let's see how many people we can screw over. I mean it's not like we need customers anyway right?"
Let's not forget despite the number of people who say they loved the old game and want it back, I'd bet if you looked back far enough, they were the same people bashing SOE on release for how crappy SWG was years before the NGE.
As far as Blizzard, search for the Starcraft fiasco or some such. They sold people's personal info to a 3rd party marketing firm not affiliated in any way to Blizzard.
The is a mountain of difference. Turbine tried to fix the game for the people PAYING them. They showed loyalty to their customers.
SOE designed the NGE in secret. They hid it from their customers until they had the credit card charges from preorders of their latest expansion. They designed the game for a crowd that was not playing the game and they knew it was not what the current players wanted. Yes they turned their back on the current loyal fans who stuck it through a broken game. Complaining or not, those people were loyal. SOE broke that bond of trust and faith and in no way made these changes for the betterment of the current players.
Blakely acknowledged that such reaction by some of the game's veterans was not a surprise and said the switch was made for the long-term success of the game as a business. "It was a tough decision we had to make," he said. "We knew we were going to sacrifice some players . . . [but] as a 'Star Wars' license, we should do a lot better than we have been doing."
<<snip>>
John Blakely, the vice president of development at Sony Online Entertainment's game studio
<<snip>>
Right they is your proof they knew they were tossing out subscribers in favor of the mythical bigger subscriber base [of world of warcraft]. They simply thought people would put up with endless amounts of disrespect because the game has the Star Wars logo on it.
Smed did try to pin blame on LA. He said the NGE was designed straight off the focus group testing results. Focus groups that originated from LA.
The focus group testing in the summer of '05 were certainly run by LEC. I had a bad feeling about those as soon as I read the setup: in the middle of the day, in the middle of the week, in the middle of the summer. Now honestly, who do you think would be available to attend these focus sessions? Yeah that's right, kids on summer vacation. So I was smelling a rat even before I read the first-hand account of a player who tried to get in. After some preliminary questionaires, he was rejected. The people running the focus group told him flat-out that, at age 28 or 30 I think, he was too old and not the demographic of interest to them.
I have no idea..just going by what the SOE hack said. Soe was half responsible for the focus group testing. That was a change from LA being totally responsible that happened around the beginning of '05 or so. Anything else is unknown. And that was the only comment from SOE that blamed LA in any way.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Jodokai, I read your posts, and have a question for you: If you are the producer here, and let's say that what Brenlo and Jeff Freeman posted are true. (NGE, at least the fast-action third-person semi-FPS was Freeman's design) So you will get the blame when push comes to shove due to you said to the developers (SOE) to make the game better?
Just wondering if that's your logical argument.... LucasArts want a game with Star Wars tag on it to sell better, that's not necessary "bad", unless the design or the changes made to it were idiotic. But who's to get the fault here? One who wants to have better product, or one who think up crappy design?
For many people, since we do not necessary know what was the order of their communication steps (so it could be SOE thought up better ways to "improve" SWG, and push the idea to be approve by Lucas). Who's to say that's not exactly what happened? We do not have data on that. All information we have gathered are the Brenlo post and Freeman blog post, and some Smed interviews showing SOE being the one making the CU/NGE. So if you think "Lucas must be behind this since Star Wars is their IP and they have a lot of control over it," that's fine. But all other visible, open information that people can interpret points the design at SOE, and for gamers, it's the design that is at fault, not the thought of wanting the game to be better.
Just want to point that out. And your post bring NO EVIDENCE to show how it was Lucas that made the decision, and trust me, I spend time reading your posts and search on what was in it... I am not saying Lucas isn't at fault here. Those who were approving the CU and NGE are truly idiots and should never work in the genre of MMORPG. But again, the important issue for gamers is the basic "Is the game fun for me?" This falls into the design of the game-play, which was screwed up by SOE first, approved by Lucas.
EDIT: Spelling/grammar
My first question: You don't think SOE wanted to make a better game? Is your stance that SOE deliberately went to sabotage the game?
We all agree LucasArts said "improve the game" right? SOE went back and said "This is our NGE we designed we think this will improve the game". At this point everyone thinks that LucasArts changed its 20+ years of game making attitude and suddenly went retarded and blindly did what SOE told them to do? Is that honestly what everyone thinks? Because if that's the case, any company that stupid, really does deserve what they got.
Lets assume for a minute the people at LucasArts aren't retarded. That they aren't pathological liars and really did the marketing survey and test group that they said they did. What if LucasArts really did know a little something about computer games dispite only having 20+ years of making them. Do you really think SOE could make LucasArts do something they didn't really want them to? Do you really think SOE could fool them?
But you're right, I really can't prove LucasArts isn't that stupid, but I don't believe they are, so really the question is did they approve the NGE and deserve at least equal part of the blame, or are they retarded and just did what SOE told them to?
If you followed this game from the beginning, you read MANY, MANY times that SOE had to get EVERYTHING approved by LucasArts. I'm sure the posts that said that are long gone by now, and I don't have the gumption to go look for it even if it is there, so you can believe me, ask someone you trust who was there, or think I'm lying. Either way I'm not going to lose a lot of sleep about it.
I'm no expert on Turbine and AC2, but the game was shut down because it was not profitable to keep open at the subscriber numbers it had. I don't think it was some devious master plan by turbine to invest a large amount of money to develope, producer and ship a retail expansion for the game just to swindle the subscriber base (which was already to small to be profitable). To me it sounds like Turbine invested a lot of money to try to revive the game, which is a good thing no? it isn't like they announced the game was shutting down the day after people bought the expansion because for the previous months they were planning on shutting the game down. It really sounds like Turbine was acting in the best interest of the players (and company at the same time) by trying to revitalize the game.
I'm not familiar with the selling of personal information. Was it open market selling or the 3rd party affiliate type thing? (neither of which I care for to be honest, but I'm interested to see details).
Turbine released an expansion, promised more expansions were on the way. Waited a few months for sales on the expansion to die off they announced the canceling of the game. You're probably right, they did it with the best of intentions, but how is it better than what SOE did? Do you honestly believe SOE said "Let's see how many people we can screw over. I mean it's not like we need customers anyway right?"
Let's not forget despite the number of people who say they loved the old game and want it back, I'd bet if you looked back far enough, they were the same people bashing SOE on release for how crappy SWG was years before the NGE.
As far as Blizzard, search for the Starcraft fiasco or some such. They sold people's personal info to a 3rd party marketing firm not affiliated in any way to Blizzard.
I don't see how ToOW wasn't bait and switch. The fact that the minute people caught on, SOE offered refunds I think confirmed this. I think they made the NGE with the best of intentions. I don't think the entire Trials of Obi Wan problem was handled with the highest of intentions, but rather I think they knew the writing was on the wall, and wanted to make a quick buck, and the plan backfired.
Jodokai, I read your posts, and have a question for you: If you are the producer here, and let's say that what Brenlo and Jeff Freeman posted are true. (NGE, at least the fast-action third-person semi-FPS was Freeman's design) So you will get the blame when push comes to shove due to you said to the developers (SOE) to make the game better?
Just wondering if that's your logical argument.... LucasArts want a game with Star Wars tag on it to sell better, that's not necessary "bad", unless the design or the changes made to it were idiotic. But who's to get the fault here? One who wants to have better product, or one who think up crappy design?
For many people, since we do not necessary know what was the order of their communication steps (so it could be SOE thought up better ways to "improve" SWG, and push the idea to be approve by Lucas). Who's to say that's not exactly what happened? We do not have data on that. All information we have gathered are the Brenlo post and Freeman blog post, and some Smed interviews showing SOE being the one making the CU/NGE. So if you think "Lucas must be behind this since Star Wars is their IP and they have a lot of control over it," that's fine. But all other visible, open information that people can interpret points the design at SOE, and for gamers, it's the design that is at fault, not the thought of wanting the game to be better.
Just want to point that out. And your post bring NO EVIDENCE to show how it was Lucas that made the decision, and trust me, I spend time reading your posts and search on what was in it... I am not saying Lucas isn't at fault here. Those who were approving the CU and NGE are truly idiots and should never work in the genre of MMORPG. But again, the important issue for gamers is the basic "Is the game fun for me?" This falls into the design of the game-play, which was screwed up by SOE first, approved by Lucas.
EDIT: Spelling/grammar
My first question: You don't think SOE wanted to make a better game? Is your stance that SOE deliberately went to sabotage the game?
We all agree LucasArts said "improve the game" right? SOE went back and said "This is our NGE we designed we think this will improve the game". At this point everyone thinks that LucasArts changed its 20+ years of game making attitude and suddenly went retarded and blindly did what SOE told them to do? Is that honestly what everyone thinks? Because if that's the case, any company that stupid, really does deserve what they got.
Lets assume for a minute the people at LucasArts aren't retarded. That they aren't pathological liars and really did the marketing survey and test group that they said they did. What if LucasArts really did know a little something about computer games dispite only having 20+ years of making them. Do you really think SOE could make LucasArts do something they didn't really want them to? Do you really think SOE could fool them?
But you're right, I really can't prove LucasArts isn't that stupid, but I don't believe they are, so really the question is did they approve the NGE and deserve at least equal part of the blame, or are they retarded and just did what SOE told them to?
If you followed this game from the beginning, you read MANY, MANY times that SOE had to get EVERYTHING approved by LucasArts. I'm sure the posts that said that are long gone by now, and I don't have the gumption to go look for it even if it is there, so you can believe me, ask someone you trust who was there, or think I'm lying. Either way I'm not going to lose a lot of sleep about it.
To answer your question:
I believe SOE tried, but due to the amount of games they have, and the inexperience and lack of knowledge of skill-based sandbox games, they lost their own vision on SWG. So their effort was using what they known best (class/level from EQ) to modify the game, hence the CU. Then there were pressure from Lucas seeing how WoW has done in the MMO market, and want to know why Star Wars, a bigger IP, wasn't getting more subs? So the idea were thrown around, questions were asked to the designers/developers, and out comes the basic frame of NGE (by Freeman's account on his role in this...). So no, my stance isn't SOE wanting to sabotage the game, but made stupid decision one after another due to NOT COMMUNICATING with their player-base.
About LucasArt part: That is true, but then again, Lucas has no real experience in the realm of MMO (unlike SOE). So I would tend to believe that due to such reason Lucas would "trust" SOE to a point if SOE did the testing and say it would improve and sell more copy of SWG. Also, if I remember correctly, many of these decision-makers (both SOE and Lucas) plays WoW. So that can also be the factor for money vs quality issue here ("unintentionally" screw their player-base.) No one is really saying Lucas isn't at fault here. Both companies are at fault, but the idea of CU and NGE was SOE, Lucas' pressure and approving the system are seriously retarded is all I can say.
And yes, I began on 07/04/03 on SWG, and from the beginning they posted that all changes/patches will be subjected to Lucas for approval. So yes, I do know that Lucas has to approve it before it can be in the game.
I searched on the web for Jeff Freeman-related sites, and on one site, a guy commented on some article/interview about Freeman that Freeman and his team made the NGE because it was "fun to them(this was in Freeman's post)," and that was the mistake, they were thinking of if the game was fun for them instead of thinking more along the line of if the game will be fun for their players (with what was passed around the net, the "focus group" aren't the MMO players who were playing the game already, but those who do not play SWG, and most do not even play MMO at all...)
So I don't think anyone is saying you are lying, but as I've stated before, gamers like us put focus on the game-play, the only thing that really matter to us. So in that sense, SOE is at fault for making these crappy changes. And Lucas is at fault for approving these crappy changes. As for Lucas dictate that SOE making CU or NGE, there isn't any real evidence so we cannot say it's Lucas who is behind the idea. But we do know, and blame Lucas for approving CU and NGE...
EDIT: answer the question and clarify some statements
I'm no expert on Turbine and AC2, but the game was shut down because it was not profitable to keep open at the subscriber numbers it had. I don't think it was some devious master plan by turbine to invest a large amount of money to develope, producer and ship a retail expansion for the game just to swindle the subscriber base (which was already to small to be profitable). To me it sounds like Turbine invested a lot of money to try to revive the game, which is a good thing no? it isn't like they announced the game was shutting down the day after people bought the expansion because for the previous months they were planning on shutting the game down. It really sounds like Turbine was acting in the best interest of the players (and company at the same time) by trying to revitalize the game.
I'm not familiar with the selling of personal information. Was it open market selling or the 3rd party affiliate type thing? (neither of which I care for to be honest, but I'm interested to see details).
Turbine released an expansion, promised more expansions were on the way. Waited a few months for sales on the expansion to die off they announced the canceling of the game. You're probably right, they did it with the best of intentions, but how is it better than what SOE did? Do you honestly believe SOE said "Let's see how many people we can screw over. I mean it's not like we need customers anyway right?"
Shutting the game down is always, always, better than what SOE did. Not to mention..people arent retarded. If a game isnt profitable it ends..everyone understands that. Even children. Some companies keep them going even if they arent profitable, but that usually makes it worse looking at history. SWG was in NO immediate danger of not being profitable..by SOE's own admition it still had some years left..but the trend had set in. How could it have not though? Their solution? The one thing a developer must never do.
Never ruin a persitant world..shut it down first. That promise is everything..and MMO's are nothing without it. The persistant world is what every MMO is..its what we pay them money for..its everything, literally. SOE has broken that promise 3 or 4 times. No one else would have gotten a second chance. And no, shutting it down does not break the promise of a persistant world. Death is natural. Murder is not.(yes im comparing what SOE did to SWG to murder..everyone knows what I mean)
How people can continue this defence of what SOE did is as strange as how SOE could think the NGE was more than a 0% chance of doing anything other than what it has done.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Lucas Arts has 20 years of experience licensing its brand name to companies that make games. While i am sure they are involved in the process, I'm also sure they put a lot of creative control in the hand of people with actual experience designing games. Then they review and approve.
Here is a question to retort your theory that Lucas Arts makes the final decisions. Who made KOTOR a great game? Lucas Arts or Bioware... The answer is obvious when you look at biowares track record. Lucas Arts games have been all over the map from great to down right aweful, because they use many different sources to make games.
To think that LA could just stroll in and force SOE to radically change everything in the game and reallocate all their resources is just plain unbelievable. That is the heart of this whole thread, to make SOE look like some powerless lapdog that has no choice in the design of the game. This was not some one sided contract where SOE was at the whim of what ever the Lucas Arts guys wanted to do that day. SOE had a lot invested in SWG as well and they have always been the creative force behind the game and the team which were the dominant MMO force in the world at the time.
No doubt this was a joint effort, but all the known facts and even the logical assumptions point to SOE being the dream team behind the concept and also the team that failed three times to deliver a complete product.
Lucas Arts has 20 years of experience licensing its brand name to companies that make games. While i am sure they are involved in the process, I'm also sure they put a lot of creative control in the hand of people with actual experience designing games. Then they review and approve. Here is a question to retort your theory that Lucas Arts makes the final decisions. Who made KOTOR a great game? Lucas Arts or Bioware... The answer is obvious when you look at biowares track record. Lucas Arts games have been all over the map from great to down right aweful, because they use many different sources to make games.
To think that LA could just stroll in and force SOE to radically change everything in the game and reallocate all their resources is just plain unbelievable. That is the heart of this whole thread, to make SOE look like some powerless lapdog that has no choice in the design of the game. This was not some one sided contract where SOE was at the whim of what ever the Lucas Arts guys wanted to do that day. SOE had a lot invested in SWG as well and they have always been the creative force behind the game and the team which were the dominant MMO force in the world at the time.
No doubt this was a joint effort, but all the known facts and even the logical assumptions point to SOE being the dream team behind the concept and also the team that failed three times to deliver a complete product.
Lets remember Bioware wanted nothing to do with LA after that game. Their offspring Obsidian cannot hide their contempt for LA after KOTOR2, where their unbelievable vision for a game was hampered by LA's deadlines.
We are both agree that they share at least some of the blame, you blame SOE more (I think) I blame LucasArts more. I'm not saying you're wrong or my way is better, just explaining my opinion.
Daffido11,
If I've give you the impression I thought SOE was powerless, I apologize. That isn't my contention at all. I fully accept (and really can't dispute since it's in black and white) that SOE coded, designed, came up with, and in every way made the NGE. I believe, though, that the reason SOE pushed the NGE on us is because they were under pressure from LucasArts and their "focus groups" to change the game. I do believe however that LucasArts could say "do what I want or we pull the license". Obviously I don't know that for a fact, but I do believe it.
Also, you want to be careful of the phrase "creative control". They may give control over gameplay, but the majority of companies complain about LucasArts being control freaks and always underfoot.
Originally posted by Jodokai Actually, you've pretty simply shown that SOE is far worse than any of those, then claim that they are all the same. Guess that settles it. You obviously favor SOE. None of those things are even remotely as unethical as whta SOE did to its customers. I just figured out where our disconnect is. You're sense of ethics is so out of wack it's rediculous. So what you're saying is it would have been better and more ethical for SOE to cancel the whole game after selling their expansion like Turbine did? And somehow that makes sense to you right? . Selling friggin' personal information after promising you wouldn't seems pretty ethical to you? Hell that's boarderline illegal. We must also note you come here to the SWG Veterans Refuge to defend SOE 9all the while falsely saying you are NOT defending SOE) and attack LEC, making false claims about responsibilities. First, if you don't want to discuss or hear opposing viewpoints, what they hell are you doing on a forum? And speaking of not reading, I have repeatedly said SOE shares part of the responsibilty for the NGE. I've said that I put MORE blame on the boss who approved the NGE than the worker who made it. You don't agree, I'm all right with that. As far as false claims, I've told you EXACTLY where to look to verify my claims. Just because you're too lazy to actually look, doesn't make my claims false. You the spend pages not really reading the responses, not really responding to the responses, ignoring all evidence, and STILL defend SOE. You're right I ignore most posts. The ones that can't intelligently state their position or provide links or actual proof, you're pretty much going to get ignored (explains why I don't respond to may of yours doesn't it?). It has nothing to do with what you play or whose games you may or may not enjoy. For some reason, you feel it necessary to blame LEC for the NGE, when it is mostly SOE's fault. And you blindly blame SOE because it's what you heard on the internet so it must be true instead of looking at the evidence for yourself. You don't "look" around to see what's going on. You don't bother to look up opposing evidence you're presented with, and you simply regurgitate what you've heard from some other poster. If it bashes SOE regardless of what's said, it must be true. In your eyes LucasArts is all that's goodly and pure, and SOE is evil. You absolutely refuse to believe anything no matter what anyone says or does to prove otherwise. Why don't you take some time and try to dredge up information on LucasArts. Take a look at how many companies absolutely HATE working with them, and how many will refuse to do it. Take a look at how many people say LucasArts is a control freak. A CONTROL FREAK. Yes, LEC approved of it, andthey shouldn't have, but SOE came up with the idea, pushed for it, got LEC to agree to it, and then did it, therefore the lion's share of the blame goes to them. yet for some strange reason you spend pages trying to shift blame for them. That's why it is easy to see whose side you're on. Yes it would sound like that, unless you, I don't know, actually READ my posts.
and in the end, all you are reduced to is a littany of personal attacks
I don't blindly blame SOE, as I have said many times, I blame BOTH, and not blindly. As an SOE Influencer I have had numerous conversations with the people who know exactly what happened,
We also have the public admissions from Smedley, Brenlo, and Jeff Freeman. What have you got? Nothing but your own speculation.
I have read all about Licas arts, and none of that has anything to do with what we are speakig of here. How about trying to PROVE YOUR CASE? You can't? Okay.
Originally posted by Jodokai Forcan, We are both agree that they share at least some of the blame, you blame SOE more (I think) I blame LucasArts more. I'm not saying you're wrong or my way is better, just explaining my opinion. Daffido11, If I've give you the impression I thought SOE was powerless, I apologize. That isn't my contention at all. I fully accept (and really can't dispute since it's in black and white) that SOE coded, designed, came up with, and in every way made the NGE. I believe, though, that the reason SOE pushed the NGE on us is because they were under pressure from LucasArts and their "focus groups" to change the game. I do believe however that LucasArts could say "do what I want or we pull the license". Obviously I don't know that for a fact, but I do believe it. Also, you want to be careful of the phrase "creative control". They may give control over gameplay, but the majority of companies complain about LucasArts being control freaks and always underfoot.
We all know they were under pressure from Lucas Arts to change the game. That's not the dispute. The question is WHY did LEC pressure them to change the game? Why was the game in a downward spiral? Anser: SOE's mismanagement from pre-launch. How did SOE cover it up? They blamed the original design (Koster) and claimed (falsely) that only a complete redesign would get then out of their slump and into WoW territory.
SOE HAD NO IDEA how to get the game out of its hole, because John Smedley could not admit that crucial issue -- they never fixed what was wrong and they were losing players because of it. He had to shift blame to someone who was no longer working on the game (but was still working for the company. That person left, by his own words, largely due to the NGE).
They then proposed a complete revamp, which is what they had already done with EQ, and they thought they could get away with it.
LEC agreed to it because SOE claimed to know their stuff. Then they test marketed only a small fraction of what became the NGE, and that went over okay, so they went along with it.
To me, that makes SOE mostly at fault, all the way.
Control Freak or not, SOE gets the lion's share of the blame.
Why would Koster leave SOE "largely due to the NGE," if it was mostly LEC's fault? Sorry, not buying your scenario at all. It flies in the face of all available facts.
I do believe however that LucasArts could say "do what I want or we pull the license". Obviously I don't know that for a fact, but I do believe it.
I highly doubt the contract between SOE/LA was so one sided that Lucas could just walk in and pull the license on a whim leaving SOE out millions of dollars in investment, time and bad publicity. There would have to be some breach of contract for Lucas Arts to be able to do that and as far as I can tell there didn't seem to be one.
The only thing spurring these two companies to act like thieves in the night was that they thought they could get a Warcraft sized subscriber base by changing the game.
This whole thread is filled with people trying to make SOE look powerless and forced to do something against their will, when almost everything points to them being the brainstromers, architects and salesmen of this whole fiasco. I could be wrong, but I would bet there were no threats at all and both companies were actually working together very amicably. Each knowing the game should be much more and the success of Warcraft only proving it was possible to be more.
Originally posted by Daffid011 This whole thread is filled with people trying to make SOE look powerless and forced to do something against their will, when almost everything points to them being the brainstromers, architects and salesmen of this whole fiasco. I could be wrong, but I would bet there were no threats at all and both companies were actually working together very amicably. Each knowing the game should be much more and the success of Warcraft only proving it was possible to be more.
That's it exactly. LucasArts gave SOE a general mandate: increase subscribers. SOE was responsible for the details and then sold their idea to LucasArts. Both companies share responsibility for what happened but SOE should be blamed for most of it.
both companies are at fault equally. one pushed for it and the other allowed it to happen. who did what exactly really doesn't matter now. sad thing is, with people getting bored of WoW and looking for something knew, SOE/LEC are sitting on a cash cow and still refuse to cash in on it.
I can somewhat understand their belief that no one would come back to play CU/Pre CU out of overall hatred for SOE....but that is what polls or even test center is for....
and in the end, all you are reduced to is a littany of personal attacks I don't blindly blame SOE, as I have said many times, I blame BOTH, and not blindly. As an SOE Influencer I have had numerous conversations with the people who know exactly what happened, We also have the public admissions from Smedley, Brenlo, and Jeff Freeman. What have you got? Nothing but your own speculation. I have read all about Licas arts, and none of that has anything to do with what we are speakig of here. How about trying to PROVE YOUR CASE? You can't? Okay.
Actually it was a littany of personal defends but that's just splitting hairs, but I'll make you a deal. Prove to me that you've actually read one word I said, and tell me what my case is, then I'll prove it.
Comments
That's absolutely true. SOE will not do anything that does not provide a recordable revenue within a business quarter - even if it means cannibalising longer term profit potential. That's why it will never produce a game like Blizzard which, it seems to me, plans yeares in advance and therefore, quite rightly, accrues ever higher levels of profit year on year,
And that's what SOE never understood. Blizzard, by all accounts, doesn't make a lot of games. Yet the games they made, had years upon years of development and debate over what they wanted it to be. Things are tested pretty strongly, and if they find bugs, they fix em. They also rely heavily on word of mouth, because their products literally do sell themselves. If a game has "Blizzard" slapped on it, your almost positive its going to be a hit. (I'm honestly trying to think of a real crap game Blizzard made.)
I'm not a huge fan of WoW, but I can certainly understand why it was successful. People were tired of half finished MMO's on release. WoW, with the bad first day notwithstanding, released a finished product. They refused to adhere to popular marketing deadlines. They stated the game would be done when the game would be done. They also had one of the most popular computer IP's there was.
The circumstances that surrounded the success of World of Warcraft are quite honestly a perfect storm. They do not come along frequently. People tried to implement these changes in their games, not recognizing that their game and company have different circumstances and a different culture, and they have all to a man failed (except LOTR, which has done decent.)
Its really hard to believe that the people at SOE didnt know this. They all played blizzard products just like us and still do.They also know that breaking the promise of a persistant world to mmo players is about the worst thing you could ever do. They learned that when they lost all their EQ players by ruining the persistant world of EQ by making EQ2. What seperates SOE from other dev companies is SOE doesnt learn. They don't learn to a point that you have no other choice but to beleive they are doing it on purpose. People want them to be successful..they have great original ideas..we would love for them to see their mmo's through our eyes and maybe the devs of the individual games to just say "no" sometimes. The players will take care of you and so will your friends.
Maybe SOE will have better luck in their new market:)
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
and this war will go on. no game or mmo should be anything like the nge.
Well lets remember, Smedley did make a "mea maxima cupla" about the NGE when they took over Vangaurd. He admitted the NGE was a catastrophic failure, and something they are never trying again. Once he did that, I considered the war over. While a peace may never come, the war itself has been waged, and won. SOE realized finally and publicly they made a huge mistake, and I think they know that mistake will remain with them for years. (Remember when they became the published of POTBS, and everyone ran away?)
I pretty much figured everything's been said, and maybe SOE gets a clue now. BUT then I saw what they did to Vanguard and read about players requests for classic servers over there. And once in a while I read some post over here soaked with denial that says someone forced SOE to push the NGE, or that it was a necessary solution to SWG's population bleed. Some people even try to say it was a good idea, and that players are just crybabies for no reason. Whatevs.
Actually, you've pretty simply shown that SOE is far worse than any of those, then claim that they are all the same. Guess that settles it. You obviously favor SOE. None of those things are even remotely as unethical as whta SOE did to its customers.
I just figured out where our disconnect is. You're sense of ethics is so out of wack it's rediculous. So what you're saying is it would have been better and more ethical for SOE to cancel the whole game after selling their expansion like Turbine did? And somehow that makes sense to you right?
. Selling friggin' personal information after promising you wouldn't seems pretty ethical to you? Hell that's boarderline illegal.
We must also note you come here to the SWG Veterans Refuge to defend SOE 9all the while falsely saying you are NOT defending SOE) and attack LEC, making false claims about responsibilities.
First, if you don't want to discuss or hear opposing viewpoints, what they hell are you doing on a forum? And speaking of not reading, I have repeatedly said SOE shares part of the responsibilty for the NGE. I've said that I put MORE blame on the boss who approved the NGE than the worker who made it. You don't agree, I'm all right with that. As far as false claims, I've told you EXACTLY where to look to verify my claims. Just because you're too lazy to actually look, doesn't make my claims false.
You the spend pages not really reading the responses, not really responding to the responses, ignoring all evidence, and STILL defend SOE.
You're right I ignore most posts. The ones that can't intelligently state their position or provide links or actual proof, you're pretty much going to get ignored (explains why I don't respond to may of yours doesn't it?).
It has nothing to do with what you play or whose games you may or may not enjoy. For some reason, you feel it necessary to blame LEC for the NGE, when it is mostly SOE's fault.
And you blindly blame SOE because it's what you heard on the internet so it must be true instead of looking at the evidence for yourself. You don't "look" around to see what's going on. You don't bother to look up opposing evidence you're presented with, and you simply regurgitate what you've heard from some other poster. If it bashes SOE regardless of what's said, it must be true. In your eyes LucasArts is all that's goodly and pure, and SOE is evil. You absolutely refuse to believe anything no matter what anyone says or does to prove otherwise. Why don't you take some time and try to dredge up information on LucasArts. Take a look at how many companies absolutely HATE working with them, and how many will refuse to do it. Take a look at how many people say LucasArts is a control freak. A CONTROL FREAK.
Yes, LEC approved of it, andthey shouldn't have, but SOE came up with the idea, pushed for it, got LEC to agree to it, and then did it, therefore the lion's share of the blame goes to them. yet for some strange reason you spend pages trying to shift blame for them. That's why it is easy to see whose side you're on.
Yes it would sound like that, unless you, I don't know, actually READ my posts.
And what proof have you posted? Put up or shut up, tough guy.
The focus group testing in the summer of '05 were certainly run by LEC. I had a bad feeling about those as soon as I read the setup: in the middle of the day, in the middle of the week, in the middle of the summer. Now honestly, who do you think would be available to attend these focus sessions? Yeah that's right, kids on summer vacation. So I was smelling a rat even before I read the first-hand account of a player who tried to get in. After some preliminary questionaires, he was rejected. The people running the focus group told him flat-out that, at age 28 or 30 I think, he was too old and not the demographic of interest to them.
I'm no expert on Turbine and AC2, but the game was shut down because it was not profitable to keep open at the subscriber numbers it had. I don't think it was some devious master plan by turbine to invest a large amount of money to develope, producer and ship a retail expansion for the game just to swindle the subscriber base (which was already to small to be profitable).
To me it sounds like Turbine invested a lot of money to try to revive the game, which is a good thing no? it isn't like they announced the game was shutting down the day after people bought the expansion because for the previous months they were planning on shutting the game down. It really sounds like Turbine was acting in the best interest of the players (and company at the same time) by trying to revitalize the game.
I'm not familiar with the selling of personal information. Was it open market selling or the 3rd party affiliate type thing? (neither of which I care for to be honest, but I'm interested to see details).
And what proof have you posted? Put up or shut up, tough guy.
Again, you might try reading my posts before you open your mouth.
Jodokai, I read your posts, and have a question for you: If you are the producer here, and let's say that what Brenlo and Jeff Freeman posted are true. (NGE, at least the fast-action third-person semi-FPS was Freeman's design) So you will get the blame when push comes to shove due to you said to the developers (SOE) to make the game better?
Just wondering if that's your logical argument....
LucasArts want a game with Star Wars tag on it to sell better, that's not necessary "bad", unless the design or the changes made to it were idiotic. But who's to get the fault here? One who wants to have better product, or one who think up crappy design?
For many people, since we do not necessary know what was the order of their communication steps (so it could be SOE thought up better ways to "improve" SWG, and push the idea to be approve by Lucas). Who's to say that's not exactly what happened? We do not have data on that. All information we have gathered are the Brenlo post and Freeman blog post, and some Smed interviews showing SOE being the one making the CU/NGE. So if you think "Lucas must be behind this since Star Wars is their IP and they have a lot of control over it," that's fine. But all other visible, open information that people can interpret points the design at SOE, and for gamers, it's the design that is at fault, not the thought of wanting the game to be better.
Just want to point that out. And your post bring NO EVIDENCE to show how it was Lucas that made the decision, and trust me, I spend time reading your posts and search on what was in it... I am not saying Lucas isn't at fault here. Those who were approving the CU and NGE are truly idiots and should never work in the genre of MMORPG. But again, the important issue for gamers is the basic "Is the game fun for me?" This falls into the design of the game-play, which was screwed up by SOE first, approved by Lucas.
EDIT: Spelling/grammar
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
Turbine released an expansion, promised more expansions were on the way. Waited a few months for sales on the expansion to die off they announced the canceling of the game. You're probably right, they did it with the best of intentions, but how is it better than what SOE did? Do you honestly believe SOE said "Let's see how many people we can screw over. I mean it's not like we need customers anyway right?"
Let's not forget despite the number of people who say they loved the old game and want it back, I'd bet if you looked back far enough, they were the same people bashing SOE on release for how crappy SWG was years before the NGE.
As far as Blizzard, search for the Starcraft fiasco or some such. They sold people's personal info to a 3rd party marketing firm not affiliated in any way to Blizzard.
The is a mountain of difference. Turbine tried to fix the game for the people PAYING them. They showed loyalty to their customers.
SOE designed the NGE in secret. They hid it from their customers until they had the credit card charges from preorders of their latest expansion. They designed the game for a crowd that was not playing the game and they knew it was not what the current players wanted. Yes they turned their back on the current loyal fans who stuck it through a broken game. Complaining or not, those people were loyal. SOE broke that bond of trust and faith and in no way made these changes for the betterment of the current players.
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/01/AR2006020102341.html
Blakely acknowledged that such reaction by some of the game's veterans was not a surprise and said the switch was made for the long-term success of the game as a business. "It was a tough decision we had to make," he said. "We knew we were going to sacrifice some players . . . [but] as a 'Star Wars' license, we should do a lot better than we have been doing."
<<snip>>
John Blakely, the vice president of development at Sony Online Entertainment's game studio
<<snip>>
Right they is your proof they knew they were tossing out subscribers in favor of the mythical bigger subscriber base [of world of warcraft]. They simply thought people would put up with endless amounts of disrespect because the game has the Star Wars logo on it.
As for the 3rd party sales, do your own homework.
The focus group testing in the summer of '05 were certainly run by LEC. I had a bad feeling about those as soon as I read the setup: in the middle of the day, in the middle of the week, in the middle of the summer. Now honestly, who do you think would be available to attend these focus sessions? Yeah that's right, kids on summer vacation. So I was smelling a rat even before I read the first-hand account of a player who tried to get in. After some preliminary questionaires, he was rejected. The people running the focus group told him flat-out that, at age 28 or 30 I think, he was too old and not the demographic of interest to them.
I have no idea..just going by what the SOE hack said. Soe was half responsible for the focus group testing. That was a change from LA being totally responsible that happened around the beginning of '05 or so. Anything else is unknown. And that was the only comment from SOE that blamed LA in any way.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
We all agree LucasArts said "improve the game" right? SOE went back and said "This is our NGE we designed we think this will improve the game". At this point everyone thinks that LucasArts changed its 20+ years of game making attitude and suddenly went retarded and blindly did what SOE told them to do? Is that honestly what everyone thinks? Because if that's the case, any company that stupid, really does deserve what they got.
Lets assume for a minute the people at LucasArts aren't retarded. That they aren't pathological liars and really did the marketing survey and test group that they said they did. What if LucasArts really did know a little something about computer games dispite only having 20+ years of making them. Do you really think SOE could make LucasArts do something they didn't really want them to? Do you really think SOE could fool them?
But you're right, I really can't prove LucasArts isn't that stupid, but I don't believe they are, so really the question is did they approve the NGE and deserve at least equal part of the blame, or are they retarded and just did what SOE told them to?
If you followed this game from the beginning, you read MANY, MANY times that SOE had to get EVERYTHING approved by LucasArts. I'm sure the posts that said that are long gone by now, and I don't have the gumption to go look for it even if it is there, so you can believe me, ask someone you trust who was there, or think I'm lying. Either way I'm not going to lose a lot of sleep about it.
Turbine released an expansion, promised more expansions were on the way. Waited a few months for sales on the expansion to die off they announced the canceling of the game. You're probably right, they did it with the best of intentions, but how is it better than what SOE did? Do you honestly believe SOE said "Let's see how many people we can screw over. I mean it's not like we need customers anyway right?"
Let's not forget despite the number of people who say they loved the old game and want it back, I'd bet if you looked back far enough, they were the same people bashing SOE on release for how crappy SWG was years before the NGE.
As far as Blizzard, search for the Starcraft fiasco or some such. They sold people's personal info to a 3rd party marketing firm not affiliated in any way to Blizzard.
I don't see how ToOW wasn't bait and switch. The fact that the minute people caught on, SOE offered refunds I think confirmed this. I think they made the NGE with the best of intentions. I don't think the entire Trials of Obi Wan problem was handled with the highest of intentions, but rather I think they knew the writing was on the wall, and wanted to make a quick buck, and the plan backfired.
And wow the formatting got really messed up in that last post!
My first question: You don't think SOE wanted to make a better game? Is your stance that SOE deliberately went to sabotage the game?We all agree LucasArts said "improve the game" right? SOE went back and said "This is our NGE we designed we think this will improve the game". At this point everyone thinks that LucasArts changed its 20+ years of game making attitude and suddenly went retarded and blindly did what SOE told them to do? Is that honestly what everyone thinks? Because if that's the case, any company that stupid, really does deserve what they got.
Lets assume for a minute the people at LucasArts aren't retarded. That they aren't pathological liars and really did the marketing survey and test group that they said they did. What if LucasArts really did know a little something about computer games dispite only having 20+ years of making them. Do you really think SOE could make LucasArts do something they didn't really want them to? Do you really think SOE could fool them?
But you're right, I really can't prove LucasArts isn't that stupid, but I don't believe they are, so really the question is did they approve the NGE and deserve at least equal part of the blame, or are they retarded and just did what SOE told them to?
If you followed this game from the beginning, you read MANY, MANY times that SOE had to get EVERYTHING approved by LucasArts. I'm sure the posts that said that are long gone by now, and I don't have the gumption to go look for it even if it is there, so you can believe me, ask someone you trust who was there, or think I'm lying. Either way I'm not going to lose a lot of sleep about it.
To answer your question:I believe SOE tried, but due to the amount of games they have, and the inexperience and lack of knowledge of skill-based sandbox games, they lost their own vision on SWG. So their effort was using what they known best (class/level from EQ) to modify the game, hence the CU. Then there were pressure from Lucas seeing how WoW has done in the MMO market, and want to know why Star Wars, a bigger IP, wasn't getting more subs? So the idea were thrown around, questions were asked to the designers/developers, and out comes the basic frame of NGE (by Freeman's account on his role in this...). So no, my stance isn't SOE wanting to sabotage the game, but made stupid decision one after another due to NOT COMMUNICATING with their player-base.
About LucasArt part: That is true, but then again, Lucas has no real experience in the realm of MMO (unlike SOE). So I would tend to believe that due to such reason Lucas would "trust" SOE to a point if SOE did the testing and say it would improve and sell more copy of SWG. Also, if I remember correctly, many of these decision-makers (both SOE and Lucas) plays WoW. So that can also be the factor for money vs quality issue here ("unintentionally" screw their player-base.) No one is really saying Lucas isn't at fault here. Both companies are at fault, but the idea of CU and NGE was SOE, Lucas' pressure and approving the system are seriously retarded is all I can say.
And yes, I began on 07/04/03 on SWG, and from the beginning they posted that all changes/patches will be subjected to Lucas for approval. So yes, I do know that Lucas has to approve it before it can be in the game.
I searched on the web for Jeff Freeman-related sites, and on one site, a guy commented on some article/interview about Freeman that Freeman and his team made the NGE because it was "fun to them(this was in Freeman's post)," and that was the mistake, they were thinking of if the game was fun for them instead of thinking more along the line of if the game will be fun for their players (with what was passed around the net, the "focus group" aren't the MMO players who were playing the game already, but those who do not play SWG, and most do not even play MMO at all...)
So I don't think anyone is saying you are lying, but as I've stated before, gamers like us put focus on the game-play, the only thing that really matter to us. So in that sense, SOE is at fault for making these crappy changes. And Lucas is at fault for approving these crappy changes. As for Lucas dictate that SOE making CU or NGE, there isn't any real evidence so we cannot say it's Lucas who is behind the idea. But we do know, and blame Lucas for approving CU and NGE...
EDIT: answer the question and clarify some statements
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
Turbine released an expansion, promised more expansions were on the way. Waited a few months for sales on the expansion to die off they announced the canceling of the game. You're probably right, they did it with the best of intentions, but how is it better than what SOE did? Do you honestly believe SOE said "Let's see how many people we can screw over. I mean it's not like we need customers anyway right?"
Shutting the game down is always, always, better than what SOE did. Not to mention..people arent retarded. If a game isnt profitable it ends..everyone understands that. Even children. Some companies keep them going even if they arent profitable, but that usually makes it worse looking at history. SWG was in NO immediate danger of not being profitable..by SOE's own admition it still had some years left..but the trend had set in. How could it have not though? Their solution? The one thing a developer must never do.Never ruin a persitant world..shut it down first. That promise is everything..and MMO's are nothing without it. The persistant world is what every MMO is..its what we pay them money for..its everything, literally. SOE has broken that promise 3 or 4 times. No one else would have gotten a second chance. And no, shutting it down does not break the promise of a persistant world. Death is natural. Murder is not.(yes im comparing what SOE did to SWG to murder..everyone knows what I mean)
How people can continue this defence of what SOE did is as strange as how SOE could think the NGE was more than a 0% chance of doing anything other than what it has done.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Lucas Arts has 20 years of experience licensing its brand name to companies that make games. While i am sure they are involved in the process, I'm also sure they put a lot of creative control in the hand of people with actual experience designing games. Then they review and approve.
Here is a question to retort your theory that Lucas Arts makes the final decisions. Who made KOTOR a great game? Lucas Arts or Bioware... The answer is obvious when you look at biowares track record. Lucas Arts games have been all over the map from great to down right aweful, because they use many different sources to make games.
To think that LA could just stroll in and force SOE to radically change everything in the game and reallocate all their resources is just plain unbelievable. That is the heart of this whole thread, to make SOE look like some powerless lapdog that has no choice in the design of the game. This was not some one sided contract where SOE was at the whim of what ever the Lucas Arts guys wanted to do that day. SOE had a lot invested in SWG as well and they have always been the creative force behind the game and the team which were the dominant MMO force in the world at the time.
No doubt this was a joint effort, but all the known facts and even the logical assumptions point to SOE being the dream team behind the concept and also the team that failed three times to deliver a complete product.
Lets remember Bioware wanted nothing to do with LA after that game. Their offspring Obsidian cannot hide their contempt for LA after KOTOR2, where their unbelievable vision for a game was hampered by LA's deadlines.
Forcan,
We are both agree that they share at least some of the blame, you blame SOE more (I think) I blame LucasArts more. I'm not saying you're wrong or my way is better, just explaining my opinion.
Daffido11,
If I've give you the impression I thought SOE was powerless, I apologize. That isn't my contention at all. I fully accept (and really can't dispute since it's in black and white) that SOE coded, designed, came up with, and in every way made the NGE. I believe, though, that the reason SOE pushed the NGE on us is because they were under pressure from LucasArts and their "focus groups" to change the game. I do believe however that LucasArts could say "do what I want or we pull the license". Obviously I don't know that for a fact, but I do believe it.
Also, you want to be careful of the phrase "creative control". They may give control over gameplay, but the majority of companies complain about LucasArts being control freaks and always underfoot.
and in the end, all you are reduced to is a littany of personal attacks
I don't blindly blame SOE, as I have said many times, I blame BOTH, and not blindly. As an SOE Influencer I have had numerous conversations with the people who know exactly what happened,
We also have the public admissions from Smedley, Brenlo, and Jeff Freeman. What have you got? Nothing but your own speculation.
I have read all about Licas arts, and none of that has anything to do with what we are speakig of here. How about trying to PROVE YOUR CASE? You can't? Okay.
fishermage.blogspot.com
We all know they were under pressure from Lucas Arts to change the game. That's not the dispute. The question is WHY did LEC pressure them to change the game? Why was the game in a downward spiral? Anser: SOE's mismanagement from pre-launch. How did SOE cover it up? They blamed the original design (Koster) and claimed (falsely) that only a complete redesign would get then out of their slump and into WoW territory.
SOE HAD NO IDEA how to get the game out of its hole, because John Smedley could not admit that crucial issue -- they never fixed what was wrong and they were losing players because of it. He had to shift blame to someone who was no longer working on the game (but was still working for the company. That person left, by his own words, largely due to the NGE).
They then proposed a complete revamp, which is what they had already done with EQ, and they thought they could get away with it.
LEC agreed to it because SOE claimed to know their stuff. Then they test marketed only a small fraction of what became the NGE, and that went over okay, so they went along with it.
To me, that makes SOE mostly at fault, all the way.
Control Freak or not, SOE gets the lion's share of the blame.
Why would Koster leave SOE "largely due to the NGE," if it was mostly LEC's fault? Sorry, not buying your scenario at all. It flies in the face of all available facts.
fishermage.blogspot.com
The only thing spurring these two companies to act like thieves in the night was that they thought they could get a Warcraft sized subscriber base by changing the game.
This whole thread is filled with people trying to make SOE look powerless and forced to do something against their will, when almost everything points to them being the brainstromers, architects and salesmen of this whole fiasco. I could be wrong, but I would bet there were no threats at all and both companies were actually working together very amicably. Each knowing the game should be much more and the success of Warcraft only proving it was possible to be more.
That's it exactly. LucasArts gave SOE a general mandate: increase subscribers. SOE was responsible for the details and then sold their idea to LucasArts. Both companies share responsibility for what happened but SOE should be blamed for most of it.
both companies are at fault equally. one pushed for it and the other allowed it to happen. who did what exactly really doesn't matter now. sad thing is, with people getting bored of WoW and looking for something knew, SOE/LEC are sitting on a cash cow and still refuse to cash in on it.
I can somewhat understand their belief that no one would come back to play CU/Pre CU out of overall hatred for SOE....but that is what polls or even test center is for....
Actually it was a littany of personal defends but that's just splitting hairs, but I'll make you a deal. Prove to me that you've actually read one word I said, and tell me what my case is, then I'll prove it.