I highly doubt the contract between SOE/LA was so one sided that Lucas could just walk in and pull the license on a whim leaving SOE out millions of dollars in investment, time and bad publicity. There would have to be some breach of contract for Lucas Arts to be able to do that and as far as I can tell there didn't seem to be one.
The only thing spurring these two companies to act like thieves in the night was that they thought they could get a Warcraft sized subscriber base by changing the game.
This whole thread is filled with people trying to make SOE look powerless and forced to do something against their will, when almost everything points to them being the brainstromers, architects and salesmen of this whole fiasco. I could be wrong, but I would bet there were no threats at all and both companies were actually working together very amicably. Each knowing the game should be much more and the success of Warcraft only proving it was possible to be more.
I don't want to get too into the contract as NONE of us know what's in it. I think that SOE has the licence for a certain period of time and once that time expires LucasArts can either renew or not, but again no one here knows for sure.
And I see the whole thread trying to say the people at LucasArts are clueless idiots that had no idea what was going on. All you're point of view I suppose.
I don't think anyone has said Lucas Arts was in the dark and most people here have said Lucas Arts is also to blame and just as guilty. This thread isn't about people defending Lucas Arts, but rather putting the creation blame where it should rest based on the known facts. I respect you want to believe what you think might have happened, but you are discussing things that fly in the face of what is known and just seem to be speculating for the sake of trying to validate the opinion you want to be true.
Someone else mentioned it doesn't matter who did what as they are both to blame. I disagree.
While both companies are to blame for allowing the NGE to happen in all the negative aspects it did, the important part of it is that whoever created it initially shows their lack of vision. The best option they could come up with to improve subscriptions was to destroy a profitable game by upending their customers and blindsiding them with changes that only benefit the company making them and not the current players.
There is only one company in this discussion that has that history in all of its games.
We've told them what we want. Our game back. We've told them the NGE is not acceptable. And we've proven that this is the view of the vast majority of players by voting with our feet. The number of people who have quit and quit for good far exceed 200,000 subscribers. I don't give a rat's rear end if the CUNGE was SOE's fault OR LEC's fault. Both are EQUALLY to blame. I won't patronize either company. I patronize CCP and EVE because that company and that product is FAR closer to what would be appropriate for a Star Wars game than the scavenger hunt, starter Jedi, "Foozle" instanced NGE. This is just more nuanced "we didn't communicate well, we'll communicate better now" crap, that is all rhetoric without substance. if LEC really cared about what their customers want (because that means making more money) we'd have had Pre-Cu back long ago. Far too little, MUCH too late. At this point, not only will I never play SWG again, I likely will never play the sequel either. In addition, since the NGE I've not: 1. Bought any new copies of Star Wars movies, even the special editions. 2. Bought any of the Star Wars novels. 3. Bought any Star Wars collectibles And I frankly could care less about the upcoming animated movie or TV show. The NGE and the cavalier disregard for us from LEC and SOE has pretty much destroyed my loyalty and fandom to Star Wars itself. They can keep applying more lipstick to the NGE pig, and all the polish in the world to the NGE turd, but it's still the NGE, and it still is losing customers. I'd not play Star Wars galaxies again even if Lucas himself PAID me to play it. As for not listening to us "crybabies", they've NEVER listened to anyone who didn't tell them what they wanted to hear! But they do fear us, which is why they still send shills to try to out shout us. Fact of the matter is that if LEC didn't "force" the CUNGE (as you claim) they'd not be in their current predicament. Their only way OUT of the current situation is to do something about that. As I've said over and over, any solution that ignores the fact that the NGE is the core PROBLEM is doomed to fail and isn't worth even trying.
I agree with this.
The truth is, a lot of players 'return', but many of them I'm seeing return do what I do... 15 day trial, hook up with a few old friends, hurrah, I'm back, blah blah, then maybe do or don't subscribe for a month, then drop the game again like a bad habit... they just disappear. And upon seeing this, I don't want to play without other players. It's demoralizing, so I disappear again too. Wait 6-12 months for more changes, cycle repeats.
Originally posted by Jodokai Originally posted by Fishermage and in the end, all you are reduced to is a littany of personal attacks I don't blindly blame SOE, as I have said many times, I blame BOTH, and not blindly. As an SOE Influencer I have had numerous conversations with the people who know exactly what happened, We also have the public admissions from Smedley, Brenlo, and Jeff Freeman. What have you got? Nothing but your own speculation. I have read all about Licas arts, and none of that has anything to do with what we are speakig of here. How about trying to PROVE YOUR CASE? You can't? Okay.
Actually it was a littany of personal defends but that's just splitting hairs, but I'll make you a deal. Prove to me that you've actually read one word I said, and tell me what my case is, then I'll prove it.
Sure, easy enough. You are claiming that they were the boss (true), and it is always the boss's fault (partly true, but here is where your argument starts to slip), and they approved of the ideas that SOE came up with (also true), therefore it is mostly LEC's fault (false).
The problem with your view is when I hire an expert, and that expert screws up the job, in a sense it's "my fault," I shouldn't have trusted the expert, so yeah, I've got to live with that. That still makes it completely the expert's fault in an absolute sense.
When I hire a doctor to perform an operation, and he tells me he knows what he is doing and that this operation will turn out well, and he botches the operation and it leaves me crippled; sure, it's MY fault, I trusted him to know what he's doing, and I signed a release, but I've still got a malpractice case.
As I have said both were at fault, but the PRIMARY fault, first for making the game a failure in a first place, which is part of what led LEC to ask for the changes, to the changes that SOE came up with, puts SOE in the primary fault position.
I understand your position but you have it all backwards. The boss is at fault, to be sure, but that boss is John Smedley.
I don't think anyone has said Lucas Arts was in the dark and most people here have said Lucas Arts is also to blame and just as guilty. This thread isn't about people defending Lucas Arts, but rather putting the creation blame where it should rest based on the known facts. I respect you want to believe what you think might have happened, but you are discussing things that fly in the face of what is known and just seem to be speculating for the sake of trying to validate the opinion you want to be true.
Someone else mentioned it doesn't matter who did what as they are both to blame. I disagree. While both companies are to blame for allowing the NGE to happen in all the negative aspects it did, the important part of it is that whoever created it initially shows their lack of vision. The best option they could come up with to improve subscriptions was to destroy a profitable game by upending their customers and blindsiding them with changes that only benefit the company making them and not the current players. There is only one company in this discussion that has that history in all of its games.
Again you're not reading my posts. I will say again that I fully accept that SOE made the NGE, and I blame them ALMOST as much. I blame LucasArts more because they were in charge and pushed for a change.
You are also DRASTICALLY overstating what SOE has done in "all" their other games. Not only are you overstating it, you're not mentioning that in all the games they did make changes to with the exception of SWG, the vast majority of people say they were improvements. So that should read: There is only one company in this discussion that has a history of improving their games after release. And no one was "blindsided" by a drastic change like they were in SWG, which again, SOE is the same, only difference is LucasArts.
Let's not forget that we don't know how profitable SWG was before the change. Here's something else people like to forget, or like to pretend not to get. It's a really simple step in logic, but most people like to pretend is too obtuse to comprehend: In a complex system it is harder to nail down problems than it is in a simple system. Skill based systems are complex, class based systems are simple. Now lets think back to what everyone was complaining about prior to the NGE: Balance problems and bugs. How do you fix balance problems and bugs? Take a complex system and make it simple, that will make the job that much easier. Now I'm not saying, and will never say, the NGE was a good solution, but it did make what people were asking for easier to accomplish.
please let this game die......i cant see another thread of SWG and ppl complaining about this NGE crap, please, move the @!#$#$@^#$@^^ on people....its over, wake up, and move on.
Playing the blame game after the fact really is not constructive. It would be more contructive to talk about what SWG currently is not....a good immersive Star Wars game. Blame who you like but it wouldn't change the situation. Star Wars Galaxies has slowly devolved from a very decent Star Wars game into a game that only is dressed up to look like a Star Wars game. I seriously doubt that many people that play SWG really compare it at all to any Star Wars movie or book. So, SWG has jumped the shark as far as I am concerned and the only people to blame for that are the current developers.
Btw, it was not the CU or NGE that made me quit SWG. It was the lack of that Star Wars feel that drove me away.
I don't think anyone has said Lucas Arts was in the dark and most people here have said Lucas Arts is also to blame and just as guilty. This thread isn't about people defending Lucas Arts, but rather putting the creation blame where it should rest based on the known facts. I respect you want to believe what you think might have happened, but you are discussing things that fly in the face of what is known and just seem to be speculating for the sake of trying to validate the opinion you want to be true.
Someone else mentioned it doesn't matter who did what as they are both to blame. I disagree. While both companies are to blame for allowing the NGE to happen in all the negative aspects it did, the important part of it is that whoever created it initially shows their lack of vision. The best option they could come up with to improve subscriptions was to destroy a profitable game by upending their customers and blindsiding them with changes that only benefit the company making them and not the current players. There is only one company in this discussion that has that history in all of its games.
Again you're not reading my posts. I will say again that I fully accept that SOE made the NGE, and I blame them ALMOST as much. I blame LucasArts more because they were in charge and pushed for a change.
You are also DRASTICALLY overstating what SOE has done in "all" their other games. Not only are you overstating it, you're not mentioning that in all the games they did make changes to with the exception of SWG, the vast majority of people say they were improvements. So that should read: There is only one company in this discussion that has a history of improving their games after release. And no one was "blindsided" by a drastic change like they were in SWG, which again, SOE is the same, only difference is LucasArts.
Let's not forget that we don't know how profitable SWG was before the change. Here's something else people like to forget, or like to pretend not to get. It's a really simple step in logic, but most people like to pretend is too obtuse to comprehend: In a complex system it is harder to nail down problems than it is in a simple system. Skill based systems are complex, class based systems are simple. Now lets think back to what everyone was complaining about prior to the NGE: Balance problems and bugs. How do you fix balance problems and bugs? Take a complex system and make it simple, that will make the job that much easier. Now I'm not saying, and will never say, the NGE was a good solution, but it did make what people were asking for easier to accomplish.
How do you fix problems with balance and bugs? Take a complex system and make it simple? You know, I think you really believe that. I also think SOE staff (those that stayed) and management also believe that.
In reality, your statements boil down to "if we can't fix it, delete it." That's what was done. If you think that in any way addressed peoples requests for fixes and balance, you're very disconnected from what people were interested in.
Also, are you forgetting that bug fixes and balances were in the final stages of development in the CURB when SOE and LA management decided that copying WoW would be more lucrative?
So no, the NGE didn't address the requests for bug fixes and balances, in any way whatsoever. And, if you think the NGE was chosen to address current players' concerns at the time, then you haven't heard Jeff Freeman's disclosure that current players were considered expendable by management.
Originally posted by Jodokai Originally posted by Daffid011 I don't think anyone has said Lucas Arts was in the dark and most people here have said Lucas Arts is also to blame and just as guilty. This thread isn't about people defending Lucas Arts, but rather putting the creation blame where it should rest based on the known facts. I respect you want to believe what you think might have happened, but you are discussing things that fly in the face of what is known and just seem to be speculating for the sake of trying to validate the opinion you want to be true.
Someone else mentioned it doesn't matter who did what as they are both to blame. I disagree. While both companies are to blame for allowing the NGE to happen in all the negative aspects it did, the important part of it is that whoever created it initially shows their lack of vision. The best option they could come up with to improve subscriptions was to destroy a profitable game by upending their customers and blindsiding them with changes that only benefit the company making them and not the current players. There is only one company in this discussion that has that history in all of its games.
Again you're not reading my posts. I will say again that I fully accept that SOE made the NGE, and I blame them ALMOST as much. I blame LucasArts more because they were in charge and pushed for a change. You are also DRASTICALLY overstating what SOE has done in "all" their other games. Not only are you overstating it, you're not mentioning that in all the games they did make changes to with the exception of SWG, the vast majority of people say they were improvements. So that should read: There is only one company in this discussion that has a history of improving their games after release. And no one was "blindsided" by a drastic change like they were in SWG, which again, SOE is the same, only difference is LucasArts. Let's not forget that we don't know how profitable SWG was before the change. Here's something else people like to forget, or like to pretend not to get. It's a really simple step in logic, but most people like to pretend is too obtuse to comprehend: In a complex system it is harder to nail down problems than it is in a simple system. Skill based systems are complex, class based systems are simple. Now lets think back to what everyone was complaining about prior to the NGE: Balance problems and bugs. How do you fix balance problems and bugs? Take a complex system and make it simple, that will make the job that much easier. Now I'm not saying, and will never say, the NGE was a good solution, but it did make what people were asking for easier to accomplish.
tell me where you are getting your data that the change they made the EQ was a vast improvement; I have heard otherwise. Either way, it still shows a willingness to vastly change the game on players.
Same thing with Vanguard. And this they did AFTER they did the NGE, showing they have NOT learned.
How do you fix balance problems and bugs? you fix them; you don't change the core game to a new core game. That's idiotic, and usually merely coompounds your problems, which it did. The only things balanced now are things that are gone. ranger is real balanced. So is squadleader. bugs? Things still shoot through walls, since they still have walls.
Scout is free of bugs, however.
It not only failed at what they were "trying to accomplish" but it was the completely wrong approach and failed, just like everyone predicted.
and in the end, all you are reduced to is a littany of personal attacks
I don't blindly blame SOE, as I have said many times, I blame BOTH, and not blindly. As an SOE Influencer I have had numerous conversations with the people who know exactly what happened,
We also have the public admissions from Smedley, Brenlo, and Jeff Freeman. What have you got? Nothing but your own speculation.
I have read all about Licas arts, and none of that has anything to do with what we are speakig of here. How about trying to PROVE YOUR CASE? You can't? Okay.
Actually it was a littany of personal defends but that's just splitting hairs, but I'll make you a deal. Prove to me that you've actually read one word I said, and tell me what my case is, then I'll prove it.
Sure, easy enough. You are claiming that they were the boss (true), and it is always the boss's fault (partly true, but here is where your argument starts to slip), and they approved of the ideas that SOE came up with (also true), therefore it is mostly LEC's fault (false).
The problem with your view is when I hire an expert, and that expert screws up the job, in a sense it's "my fault," I shouldn't have trusted the expert, so yeah, I've got to live with that. That still makes it completely the expert's fault in an absolute sense.
When I hire a doctor to perform an operation, and he tells me he knows what he is doing and that this operation will turn out well, and he botches the operation and it leaves me crippled; sure, it's MY fault, I trusted him to know what he's doing, and I signed a release, but I've still got a malpractice case.
As I have said both were at fault, but the PRIMARY fault, first for making the game a failure in a first place, which is part of what led LEC to ask for the changes, to the changes that SOE came up with, puts SOE in the primary fault position.
I understand your position but you have it all backwards. The boss is at fault, to be sure, but that boss is John Smedley.
You know, I believe SOE and LA have responsibility for what happened. Both of them. What I object to is when the blame game is used as a smoke screen for unethical decisions and behaviour.
The fact that both LA and SOE are responsible for the NGE doesn't dismiss these facts:
SOE sold us an expansion and then rendered the features we just bought useless,
SOE broke movement, chat and combat with the NGE,
SOE deleted most people's mastered professions,
SOE locked people's pets up in their datapads,
SOE made crafting useless,
SOE asked for feedback on the forums and then banned people for providing it, even respectfully,
SOE initially refused refunds on the expansion, and then later relented when legal action was suggested,
I could go on, but these are enough examples of specific actions taken by SOE.
Did LucasArts tell them to make all of those specific decisions and take all of those particular actions? If so, we certainly haven't heard anything about it.
Saying that LucasArts directed SOE to make the game more profitable, like Wow, doesn't dismiss SOE's responsibility for it's own actions.
You know what I would say if my boss told me to defraud people, or offer a service that I know is well below an acceptable standard. I would say no. In fact I've been in that exact situation, and I said no. It can be done, and it should be done.
The fact of the matter is though, LucasArts didn't tell SOE to pull all of this specific NGE crap. SOE devs invented it, by their own admission, and sold it to the management at SOE. SOE management got WoW in their eyes, and sold the NGE idea to LA, who approved it. This has all been disclosed by current or former SOE staff.
So, go ahead Jodokai and say LucasArts had a role to play; of course they did. This does not, however, in any way relieve SOE of responsibility for their actions. LA wanted changes, and LA approved the NGE. SOE did all the above, and people are still pissed with them for it, even more so when they try to justify or rationalize it.
This would all come to a resolution if LA and SOE would both step up and acknowledge their roles in the disaster and publically apologize to everyone they treated like garbage. LA has never done this, and Smed has made unofficial apologies, some of which have been laced with rationalization, on third party websites.
An nice official "SOE and LA jointly apologize for the way we have treated the players of SWG over the years. It was wrong to market an expansion and then render its features useless. It was wrong to keep you in the dark about the direction of the game. It was wrong to release a revamp that broke all of the core game mechanics. It was wrong to render all your progress useless. It was wrong to envy our competitors and abandon our playerbase to try to get theirs." Yeah that would be an honest attempt to make ammends. It hasn't happened, and until it does, blame games and rationalizations are only going to add fuel to the embers. I expect this fire to burn for some time yet.
Furthermore, I told SOE and LA back in 2005 that if they played these games it would just keep people pissed off with their b.s. all the longer. Of course I told them not to implement the NGE as well. As did a few thousand others. But, they don't listen, and they continue along the same self-destructive path.
If I didn't care about gamers and the quality of services provided to us, and if I didn't really give a rats behind about the StarWars story, I'd remain silent and let SOE destroy itself with its own greed and stupidity. Now that I"m thinking of it, maybe that's what needs to happen before we see a real change from them.
Originally posted by ArcAngel3 Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by Jodokai
Originally posted by Fishermage
and in the end, all you are reduced to is a littany of personal attacks I don't blindly blame SOE, as I have said many times, I blame BOTH, and not blindly. As an SOE Influencer I have had numerous conversations with the people who know exactly what happened, We also have the public admissions from Smedley, Brenlo, and Jeff Freeman. What have you got? Nothing but your own speculation. I have read all about Licas arts, and none of that has anything to do with what we are speakig of here. How about trying to PROVE YOUR CASE? You can't? Okay.
Actually it was a littany of personal defends but that's just splitting hairs, but I'll make you a deal. Prove to me that you've actually read one word I said, and tell me what my case is, then I'll prove it.
Sure, easy enough. You are claiming that they were the boss (true), and it is always the boss's fault (partly true, but here is where your argument starts to slip), and they approved of the ideas that SOE came up with (also true), therefore it is mostly LEC's fault (false). The problem with your view is when I hire an expert, and that expert screws up the job, in a sense it's "my fault," I shouldn't have trusted the expert, so yeah, I've got to live with that. That still makes it completely the expert's fault in an absolute sense. When I hire a doctor to perform an operation, and he tells me he knows what he is doing and that this operation will turn out well, and he botches the operation and it leaves me crippled; sure, it's MY fault, I trusted him to know what he's doing, and I signed a release, but I've still got a malpractice case. As I have said both were at fault, but the PRIMARY fault, first for making the game a failure in a first place, which is part of what led LEC to ask for the changes, to the changes that SOE came up with, puts SOE in the primary fault position. I understand your position but you have it all backwards. The boss is at fault, to be sure, but that boss is John Smedley.
You know, I believe SOE and LA have responsibility for what happened. Both of them. What I object to is when the blame game is used as a smoke screen for unethical decisions and behaviour. The fact that both LA and SOE are responsible for the NGE doesn't dismiss these facts: SOE sold us an expansion and then rendered the features we just bought useless, SOE broke movement, chat and combat with the NGE, SOE deleted most people's mastered professions, SOE locked people's pets up in their datapads, SOE made crafting useless, SOE asked for feedback on the forums and then banned people for providing it, even respectfully, SOE initially refused refunds on the expansion, and then later relented when legal action was suggested, I could go on, but these are enough examples of specific actions taken by SOE. Did LucasArts tell them to make all of those specific decisions and take all of those particular actions? If so, we certainly haven't heard anything about it. Saying that LucasArts directed SOE to make the game more profitable, like Wow, doesn't dismiss SOE's responsibility for it's own actions. You know what I would say if my boss told me to defraud people, or offer a service that I know is well below an acceptable standard. I would say no. In fact I've been in that exact situation, and I said no. It can be done, and it should be done. The fact of the matter is though, LucasArts didn't tell SOE to pull all of this specific NGE crap. SOE devs invented it, by their own admission, and sold it to the management at SOE. SOE management got WoW in their eyes, and sold the NGE idea to LA, who approved it. This has all been disclosed by current or former SOE staff. So, go ahead Jodokai and say LucasArts had a role to play; of course they did. This does not, however, in any way relieve SOE of responsibility for their actions. LA wanted changes, and LA approved the NGE. SOE did all the above, and people are still pissed with them for it, even more so when they try to justify or rationalize it. This would all come to a resolution if LA and SOE would both step up and acknowledge their roles in the disaster and publically apologize to everyone they treated like garbage. LA has never done this, and Smed has made unofficial apologies, some of which have been laced with rationalization, on third party websites. An nice official "SOE and LA jointly apologize for the way we have treated the players of SWG over the years. It was wrong to market an expansion and then render its features useless. It was wrong to keep you in the dark about the direction of the game. It was wrong to release a revamp that broke all of the core game mechanics. It was wrong to render all your progress useless. It was wrong to envy our competitors and abandon our playerbase to try to get theirs." Yeah that would be an honest attempt to make ammends. It hasn't happened, and until it does, blame games and rationalizations are only going to add fuel to the embers. I expect this fire to burn for some time yet.
Also, since SOE keeps doing it, I don't really have much faith in anything they do or say. players of Vanguard know what I mean; after all, they are the ones asking for Classic Servers now.
It LOOKS as if LEC HAS actually learned something; even JULIO may have learned something: shortly after handing him FORCE UNLEASHED, it was determined that the game would not be ready and they decided not to rush things and pushed the date back.V Hopefully that's a sign of good things to come. Look at SWG PRESENTLY and at Vanguard, I'm not thrilled with what I see from SOE.
I know SOE can blame Brad and Sigil for the mess that was Vanguard, but THEY decided to release it before it was ready, and THEY decided to "NGE" it.
and in the end, all you are reduced to is a littany of personal attacks
I don't blindly blame SOE, as I have said many times, I blame BOTH, and not blindly. As an SOE Influencer I have had numerous conversations with the people who know exactly what happened,
We also have the public admissions from Smedley, Brenlo, and Jeff Freeman. What have you got? Nothing but your own speculation.
I have read all about Licas arts, and none of that has anything to do with what we are speakig of here. How about trying to PROVE YOUR CASE? You can't? Okay.
Actually it was a littany of personal defends but that's just splitting hairs, but I'll make you a deal. Prove to me that you've actually read one word I said, and tell me what my case is, then I'll prove it.
Sure, easy enough. You are claiming that they were the boss (true), and it is always the boss's fault (partly true, but here is where your argument starts to slip), and they approved of the ideas that SOE came up with (also true), therefore it is mostly LEC's fault (false).
The problem with your view is when I hire an expert, and that expert screws up the job, in a sense it's "my fault," I shouldn't have trusted the expert, so yeah, I've got to live with that. That still makes it completely the expert's fault in an absolute sense.
When I hire a doctor to perform an operation, and he tells me he knows what he is doing and that this operation will turn out well, and he botches the operation and it leaves me crippled; sure, it's MY fault, I trusted him to know what he's doing, and I signed a release, but I've still got a malpractice case.
As I have said both were at fault, but the PRIMARY fault, first for making the game a failure in a first place, which is part of what led LEC to ask for the changes, to the changes that SOE came up with, puts SOE in the primary fault position.
I understand your position but you have it all backwards. The boss is at fault, to be sure, but that boss is John Smedley.
You know, I believe SOE and LA have responsibility for what happened. Both of them. What I object to is when the blame game is used as a smoke screen for unethical decisions and behaviour.
The fact that both LA and SOE are responsible for the NGE doesn't dismiss these facts:
SOE sold us an expansion and then rendered the features we just bought useless,
SOE broke movement, chat and combat with the NGE,
SOE deleted most people's mastered professions,
SOE locked people's pets up in their datapads,
SOE made crafting useless,
SOE asked for feedback on the forums and then banned people for providing it, even respectfully,
SOE initially refused refunds on the expansion, and then later relented when legal action was suggested,
I could go on, but these are enough examples of specific actions taken by SOE.
Did LucasArts tell them to make all of those specific decisions and take all of those particular actions? If so, we certainly haven't heard anything about it.
Saying that LucasArts directed SOE to make the game more profitable, like Wow, doesn't dismiss SOE's responsibility for it's own actions.
You know what I would say if my boss told me to defraud people, or offer a service that I know is well below an acceptable standard. I would say no. In fact I've been in that exact situation, and I said no. It can be done, and it should be done.
The fact of the matter is though, LucasArts didn't tell SOE to pull all of this specific NGE crap. SOE devs invented it, by their own admission, and sold it to the management at SOE. SOE management got WoW in their eyes, and sold the NGE idea to LA, who approved it. This has all been disclosed by current or former SOE staff.
So, go ahead Jodokai and say LucasArts had a role to play; of course they did. This does not, however, in any way relieve SOE of responsibility for their actions. LA wanted changes, and LA approved the NGE. SOE did all the above, and people are still pissed with them for it, even more so when they try to justify or rationalize it.
This would all come to a resolution if LA and SOE would both step up and acknowledge their roles in the disaster and publically apologize to everyone they treated like garbage. LA has never done this, and Smed has made unofficial apologies, some of which have been laced with rationalization, on third party websites.
An nice official "SOE and LA jointly apologize for the way we have treated the players of SWG over the years. It was wrong to market an expansion and then render its features useless. It was wrong to keep you in the dark about the direction of the game. It was wrong to release a revamp that broke all of the core game mechanics. It was wrong to render all your progress useless. It was wrong to envy our competitors and abandon our playerbase to try to get theirs." Yeah that would be an honest attempt to make ammends. It hasn't happened, and until it does, blame games and rationalizations are only going to add fuel to the embers. I expect this fire to burn for some time yet.
Also, since SOE keeps doing it, I don't really have much faith in anything they do or say. players of Vanguard know what I mean; after all, they are the ones asking for Classic Servers now.
It LOOKS as if LEC HAS actually learned something; even JULIO may have learned something: shortly after handing him FORCE UNLEASHED, it was determined that the game would not be ready and they decided not to rush things and pushed the date back.V
Hopefully that's a sign of good things to come. Look at SWG PRESENTLY and at Vanguard, I'm not thrilled with what I see from SOE.
I know SOE can blame Brad and Sigil for the mess that was Vanguard, but THEY decided to release it before it was ready, and THEY decided to "NGE" it.
Yup they pushed for the early release (again). Had a horrible launch of a bug infested product (again). Promised to make it better (again). NGEed it (again). Now are having requests for classic servers (again). And have a playing community tearing each other up over preferences regarding the original game mechanics and the new simplified ones (again). And Smed says, "we've learned from our mistakes." Oh really.
I read your post and think we are closer than you think with a few differences, big ones though.
You say Lucas Arts pushed for changes, but we all know the freeman group campaigned for many weeks to get changes considered and passed. That doesn't sound like they were forced to do something. Really SOE was hired to be the experts, the people with the experience. No one really knows what Lucas Arts said to SOE, but almost anything would be understandable considering how terrible SOE was handling the game. I don't blame LA for wanting improvements at all. Blamed for the greed it turned into yes, but I highly doubt LA forced them to re-engineer the game for a third time. That is a SOE trademark kneejerk reaction.
As for the changes they make, not everyone thinks they were improvements. Those who stuck around might, but many many left due to those changes. Seeing that there were less players after the changes than prior to I am going to have to disagree with your claims.
As for blindsiding. SOE blind sided EQ2 players with station exchange and initially told them ALL server would be converted and those who didn't like it could move to new non-exchange servers. They blindsided several servers in EQ, EQ2 and SWG with server mergers from their failed attempts to market there. In some cases they tried to deny anything happened. Not to mention how many "revamps" and "__insert mechanic here__ upgrades" they have done post launch.
As for not knowing how profitable SWG was I have one statement to that. Second largest MMO in North America at the time. It is silly to even suggest that the game might somehow not be profitable. Showing a trend of subscriber losses yes.
The best way to change a complex system is to make it easier and the added benefit of being able to get things done quicker as a result? The NGE has been out longer than all other versions of SWG combined. Still no collision detection that was promised with 6 months. Still not enough quests to level 1-90 on. Still bugs from the release of the NGE. ZERO expansions for the game. Years later and they are still in the process of doing class revamps. How many times have the devs been quoted as saying "that would be to hard" in response to questions? No, I submit nothing has been made easier to do and in fact has been made more difficult as a result. Not that these changes were ever designed to fix the problems of the game in the first place. They were 100% designed to attract WoW subscribers with no regard to how it would affect the current players.
Since SOE and LucasArts are partners in this game, we have to assume all business decsions are made by both parties. Everything you're putting soley on SOE LucasArts also had a part in. I've also noticed a trend (and could go back and find the threads) where any time ANYTHING was said about SWG everyone immediately attributes it to SOE even if LucasArts is the one who said it.
Let me give an example I've used in the past to respond to a lot of people: If I hire someone to kill my wife and someone does it, according to law, who is more responsible, the assassin or me? According to law I am more responsible than the assassin. Assuming LucasArts is me and SOE is the assassin, that's my reasoning behind putting more blame on LucasArts. And I really can't be wrong, since it is just my opinion.
And I want to officially say "I told you so!". LucasArts pushes SOE to release SWG early and LucasArts is the good guy just trying to make the evil SOE live up to the contract. SOE makes Sigil release Vanguard early and their the evil perveyors of Vanguard's destruction.
Now as far SOE "radically" changing all their games, the only one they've done it to is SWG. EQ I do hear complaints about the changes, but it's still the most successful game ever. No other game that has been out as long or longer has as many subs, so something has to be done right. Vanguard has BARELY changed, and most people say it's been changed for the better. MxO has also been VASTLY improved. EQ2 has been changed quite a bit, and everyone praises them for the changes. Are we really going to say SOE is evil for IMPROVING games?
As for blindsiding. SOE blind sided EQ2 players with station exchange and initially told them ALL server would be converted and those who didn't like it could move to new non-exchange servers. They blindsided several servers in EQ, EQ2 and SWG with server mergers from their failed attempts to market there. In some cases they tried to deny anything happened. Not to mention how many "revamps" and "__insert mechanic here__ upgrades" they have done post launch.
Having played and followed EQ2 from release, you're going to have to provide a link about the station exchange. I NEVER heard that from SOE. The Doomsayers said this what going to be and SOE came out specifically to correct them. I also think we have a very different definition of "blindsided". If they make an announcement months before it happens, it really can't be called blindsided. As far as mechanic revamps, how many has CoH seen? How many updates and rebalances has WoW gone though? What about Ashron's Call? If you play an MMO you should expect these types of things because they happen in ALL MMO's.
The best way to change a complex system is to make it easier and the added benefit of being able to get things done quicker as a result? The NGE has been out longer than all other versions of SWG combined. Still no collision detection that was promised with 6 months. Still not enough quests to level 1-90 on. Still bugs from the release of the NGE. ZERO expansions for the game. Years later and they are still in the process of doing class revamps. How many times have the devs been quoted as saying "that would be to hard" in response to questions? No, I submit nothing has been made easier to do and in fact has been made more difficult as a result. Not that these changes were ever designed to fix the problems of the game in the first place. They were 100% designed to attract WoW subscribers with no regard to how it would affect the current players.
I have no doubts that you're absolutely correct in all of this, however, simple logic says a class based system is easier to fix. Whether SOE actually does it or not is a differnent story. I also want to make it clear that I am in no way defending SOE's decision. I'm one of the few that really did love the way the game was. If you look back at my first posts on these boards it was me saying how much I loved the game (as opposed to most people who say they loved the way the game was but really did nothing but bash the game even back then).
Originally posted by Jodokai Fishermage: Since SOE and LucasArts are partners in this game, we have to assume all business decsions are made by both parties. Everything you're putting soley on SOE LucasArts also had a part in. I've also noticed a trend (and could go back and find the threads) where any time ANYTHING was said about SWG everyone immediately attributes it to SOE even if LucasArts is the one who said it. Let me give an example I've used in the past to respond to a lot of people: If I hire someone to kill my wife and someone does it, according to law, who is more responsible, the assassin or me? According to law I am more responsible than the assassin. Assuming LucasArts is me and SOE is the assassin, that's my reasoning behind putting more blame on LucasArts. And I really can't be wrong, since it is just my opinion. And I want to officially say "I told you so!". LucasArts pushes SOE to release SWG early and LucasArts is the good guy just trying to make the evil SOE live up to the contract. SOE makes Sigil release Vanguard early and their the evil perveyors of Vanguard's destruction. Now as far SOE "radically" changing all their games, the only one they've done it to is SWG. EQ I do hear complaints about the changes, but it's still the most successful game ever. No other game that has been out as long or longer has as many subs, so something has to be done right. Vanguard has BARELY changed, and most people say it's been changed for the better. MxO has also been VASTLY improved. EQ2 has been changed quite a bit, and everyone praises them for the changes. Are we really going to say SOE is evil for IMPROVING games?
I'm not putting anything solely on SOE; I am saying BOTh are at fault, on;y SOE moreso.
The assassin one is a VERY bad analogy. My doctor one is much better. In taht no one ais hiring anyone to specifically do evil. One is hiring someone to do good, and the one hired does something wrong.
As to your last part, you are just wrong. As I have said there are people who stopped playing SOE games after the EQ changes, they just did the same thin to Vanguard. They haven't improved those game according to people I've talked to. You are unique in this. I understand you don't see it that way though. You seem to have a very unique perspectove on a great many things.
Originally posted by Jodokai Originally posted by Daffid011 As for blindsiding. SOE blind sided EQ2 players with station exchange and initially told them ALL server would be converted and those who didn't like it could move to new non-exchange servers. They blindsided several servers in EQ, EQ2 and SWG with server mergers from their failed attempts to market there. In some cases they tried to deny anything happened. Not to mention how many "revamps" and "__insert mechanic here__ upgrades" they have done post launch. Having played and followed EQ2 from release, you're going to have to provide a link about the station exchange. I NEVER heard that from SOE. The Doomsayers said this what going to be and SOE came out specifically to correct them. I also think we have a very different definition of "blindsided". If they make an announcement months before it happens, it really can't be called blindsided. As far as mechanic revamps, how many has CoH seen? How many updates and rebalances has WoW gone though? What about Ashron's Call? If you play an MMO you should expect these types of things because they happen in ALL MMO's. The best way to change a complex system is to make it easier and the added benefit of being able to get things done quicker as a result? The NGE has been out longer than all other versions of SWG combined. Still no collision detection that was promised with 6 months. Still not enough quests to level 1-90 on. Still bugs from the release of the NGE. ZERO expansions for the game. Years later and they are still in the process of doing class revamps. How many times have the devs been quoted as saying "that would be to hard" in response to questions? No, I submit nothing has been made easier to do and in fact has been made more difficult as a result. Not that these changes were ever designed to fix the problems of the game in the first place. They were 100% designed to attract WoW subscribers with no regard to how it would affect the current players. I have no doubts that you're absolutely correct in all of this, however, simple logic says a class based system is easier to fix. Whether SOE actually does it or not is a differnent story. I also want to make it clear that I am in no way defending SOE's decision. I'm one of the few that really did love the way the game was. If you look back at my first posts on these boards it was me saying how much I loved the game (as opposed to most people who say they loved the way the game was but really did nothing but bash the game even back then).
Simple logic says you don't change a persistent world in a way that nullifies players' efforts, period. SOE has a history of doing that, no matter how you want to spin it.
Plus, show me one player who bashed the game pre-CU who continue to bash what SOE did with the CU/NGE. I would like to see the context for this blanket statement. What I witnessed was most people whocame out against the CU and the later NGE were NOT people who complained about the game earlier; in fact, the CU/NGE is what got them posting in the first place.
PLUS, being critical of what was wrong with the game since release, and understanding that the CU and the NGE did not address that, is what the main critique is all about. SOE's mismanagement of developer assets is what made the game a failure in the beginning, and then trying to cover that up by ripping the game apart and starting over again with first the CU, and then the NGE, was a continuance of failure, only in a new way.
That is a quick link where you can see the intentions even though edited parts you can see that they could change all the servers to station enabled. I will have to revise my statement to say they had plans to change all the servers and could instead of would until I can find the statements as they were first posted and not edited like that article was. As I recall that post and the Poll where made the day after the announcement and in response to the uproar. I know the original message I am looking for was in the exchange discussion forum that was deleted.
Needless to say that is a giant blindside to the players. It doesn't matter that they announced before doing it, because SOE until that point had spoken very loudly about RMT having a negative impact on their games and they would do everything they could to stop it. That is until they learned they could make a buck on it, then they proved the WOULD/COULD do it to your server and tough luck for you.
Lots of games have revamps per say. However they are not stupid enough to try are rebalance 24 classes at the same time, because it just doesn't work. It accomplishes almost nothing as it solves a few problems, but also creates just as many. EQ2 revamp just shifted around the issues and changed basic elements of classes people made their initial choice based on. I remember the nightmare it was as I tested the changes (which were going on at the same time as beta testing the new expansion which just made that even worse). Most games do these changes to enhance the short comings of a class or fix some missing elements to make it more rounded in the over all system, but they do it in small controlled steps so the effects can be measured. The SOE method is more of a sweepeing redesign that changes to many core aspcts in comparison.
I will agree that in theory it is easier to fix a complex problem if the mechanics are simplified. However that shouldn't be a topic of discussion here as it is very clear that this was not the reason the NGE came to be. The NGE was made to attract new players despite any effects it had on the current players, which is why it was kept such a secret until the last moment.
Fishermage: Since SOE and LucasArts are partners in this game, we have to assume all business decsions are made by both parties. Everything you're putting soley on SOE LucasArts also had a part in. I've also noticed a trend (and could go back and find the threads) where any time ANYTHING was said about SWG everyone immediately attributes it to SOE even if LucasArts is the one who said it. Let me give an example I've used in the past to respond to a lot of people: If I hire someone to kill my wife and someone does it, according to law, who is more responsible, the assassin or me? According to law I am more responsible than the assassin. Assuming LucasArts is me and SOE is the assassin, that's my reasoning behind putting more blame on LucasArts. And I really can't be wrong, since it is just my opinion. And I want to officially say "I told you so!". LucasArts pushes SOE to release SWG early and LucasArts is the good guy just trying to make the evil SOE live up to the contract. SOE makes Sigil release Vanguard early and their the evil perveyors of Vanguard's destruction. Now as far SOE "radically" changing all their games, the only one they've done it to is SWG. EQ I do hear complaints about the changes, but it's still the most successful game ever. No other game that has been out as long or longer has as many subs, so something has to be done right. Vanguard has BARELY changed, and most people say it's been changed for the better. MxO has also been VASTLY improved. EQ2 has been changed quite a bit, and everyone praises them for the changes. Are we really going to say SOE is evil for IMPROVING games?
Opinions can be quite wrong. If there's one thing I never understood, its the entire "well i really can't be wrong, its my opinion." While there isn't a smoking gun in this case, the strong case can (and has) been made that the evidence is that while LA certainly deserves part of the blame, the greater sin so to speak lies with SOE for their deceptive advertising, customer relations, quality control, etc. It's what one calls "an untenable opinion" and in most cases its worse than being wrong. Being wrong, when proven, people have the chance to change their stance. The untenable opinion crowd will do everything possible to cling to their myth typically.
And nobody is claiming Lucasarts is "the good guy." It's just a debate between who is bad and who is worse.
Fishermage: Since SOE and LucasArts are partners in this game, we have to assume all business decsions are made by both parties. Everything you're putting soley on SOE LucasArts also had a part in. I've also noticed a trend (and could go back and find the threads) where any time ANYTHING was said about SWG everyone immediately attributes it to SOE even if LucasArts is the one who said it. Let me give an example I've used in the past to respond to a lot of people: If I hire someone to kill my wife and someone does it, according to law, who is more responsible, the assassin or me? According to law I am more responsible than the assassin. Assuming LucasArts is me and SOE is the assassin, that's my reasoning behind putting more blame on LucasArts. And I really can't be wrong, since it is just my opinion. And I want to officially say "I told you so!". LucasArts pushes SOE to release SWG early and LucasArts is the good guy just trying to make the evil SOE live up to the contract. SOE makes Sigil release Vanguard early and their the evil perveyors of Vanguard's destruction. Now as far SOE "radically" changing all their games, the only one they've done it to is SWG. EQ I do hear complaints about the changes, but it's still the most successful game ever. No other game that has been out as long or longer has as many subs, so something has to be done right. Vanguard has BARELY changed, and most people say it's been changed for the better. MxO has also been VASTLY improved. EQ2 has been changed quite a bit, and everyone praises them for the changes. Are we really going to say SOE is evil for IMPROVING games?
Opinions can be quite wrong. If there's one thing I never understood, its the entire "well i really can't be wrong, its my opinion." While there isn't a smoking gun in this case, the strong case can (and has) been made that the evidence is that while LA certainly deserves part of the blame, the greater sin so to speak lies with SOE for their deceptive advertising, customer relations, quality control, etc. It's what one calls "an untenable opinion" and in most cases its worse than being wrong. Being wrong, when proven, people have the chance to change their stance. The untenable opinion crowd will do everything possible to cling to their myth typically.
And nobody is claiming Lucasarts is "the good guy." It's just a debate between who is bad and who is worse.
No opinions can't be wrong, but that's neither here nor there. You are aware of course that LucasArts is and always has been in charge of marketing. So any deceptive advertisements, came from them.
Since SOE and LucasArts are partners in this game, we have to assume all business decsions are made by both parties. Everything you're putting soley on SOE LucasArts also had a part in. I've also noticed a trend (and could go back and find the threads) where any time ANYTHING was said about SWG everyone immediately attributes it to SOE even if LucasArts is the one who said it.
Let me give an example I've used in the past to respond to a lot of people: If I hire someone to kill my wife and someone does it, according to law, who is more responsible, the assassin or me? According to law I am more responsible than the assassin. Assuming LucasArts is me and SOE is the assassin, that's my reasoning behind putting more blame on LucasArts. And I really can't be wrong, since it is just my opinion.
And I want to officially say "I told you so!". LucasArts pushes SOE to release SWG early and LucasArts is the good guy just trying to make the evil SOE live up to the contract. SOE makes Sigil release Vanguard early and their the evil perveyors of Vanguard's destruction.
Now as far SOE "radically" changing all their games, the only one they've done it to is SWG. EQ I do hear complaints about the changes, but it's still the most successful game ever. No other game that has been out as long or longer has as many subs, so something has to be done right. Vanguard has BARELY changed, and most people say it's been changed for the better. MxO has also been VASTLY improved. EQ2 has been changed quite a bit, and everyone praises them for the changes. Are we really going to say SOE is evil for IMPROVING games?
I'm not putting anything solely on SOE; I am saying BOTh are at fault, on;y SOE moreso.
The assassin one is a VERY bad analogy. My doctor one is much better. In taht no one ais hiring anyone to specifically do evil. One is hiring someone to do good, and the one hired does something wrong.
As to your last part, you are just wrong. As I have said there are people who stopped playing SOE games after the EQ changes, they just did the same thin to Vanguard. They haven't improved those game according to people I've talked to. You are unique in this. I understand you don't see it that way though. You seem to have a very unique perspectove on a great many things.
Really I'm wrong? I'm the only one that thinks SOE improved Vanguard? Just to test that theory, I went to the Vanguard forums on this site. First non-sticky thread in that forum has people saying the game has improved since launch. When to GUComics.com First post about Vanguard, again people saying the game has improved. So I would dare say that your perspective seems to be more unique than mine.
Originally posted by Jodokai Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by Jodokai Fishermage: Since SOE and LucasArts are partners in this game, we have to assume all business decsions are made by both parties. Everything you're putting soley on SOE LucasArts also had a part in. I've also noticed a trend (and could go back and find the threads) where any time ANYTHING was said about SWG everyone immediately attributes it to SOE even if LucasArts is the one who said it. Let me give an example I've used in the past to respond to a lot of people: If I hire someone to kill my wife and someone does it, according to law, who is more responsible, the assassin or me? According to law I am more responsible than the assassin. Assuming LucasArts is me and SOE is the assassin, that's my reasoning behind putting more blame on LucasArts. And I really can't be wrong, since it is just my opinion. And I want to officially say "I told you so!". LucasArts pushes SOE to release SWG early and LucasArts is the good guy just trying to make the evil SOE live up to the contract. SOE makes Sigil release Vanguard early and their the evil perveyors of Vanguard's destruction. Now as far SOE "radically" changing all their games, the only one they've done it to is SWG. EQ I do hear complaints about the changes, but it's still the most successful game ever. No other game that has been out as long or longer has as many subs, so something has to be done right. Vanguard has BARELY changed, and most people say it's been changed for the better. MxO has also been VASTLY improved. EQ2 has been changed quite a bit, and everyone praises them for the changes. Are we really going to say SOE is evil for IMPROVING games?
I'm not putting anything solely on SOE; I am saying BOTh are at fault, on;y SOE moreso. The assassin one is a VERY bad analogy. My doctor one is much better. In taht no one ais hiring anyone to specifically do evil. One is hiring someone to do good, and the one hired does something wrong. As to your last part, you are just wrong. As I have said there are people who stopped playing SOE games after the EQ changes, they just did the same thin to Vanguard. They haven't improved those game according to people I've talked to. You are unique in this. I understand you don't see it that way though. You seem to have a very unique perspectove on a great many things. Really I'm wrong? I'm the only one that thinks SOE improved Vanguard? Just to test that theory, I went to the Vanguard forums on this site. First non-sticky thread in that forum has people saying the game has improved since launch. When to GUComics.com First post about Vanguard, again people saying the game has improved. So I would dare say that your perspective seems to be more unique than mine.
Ah so lovely to watch people nitpick their way through people's posts, instead of looking at the thrust of what people say, or even what they actually say. I will, as a kindness to you,stand corrected; you are in a slim minority -- sorry I used the word unique, even though I was only speaking of people I have talked to, amd that has nothing to do wiith your shallow "test."
Look at the forums on this site for SWG. Look at the official forums. MANY people claiming the NGE is great, and all the "it came from LA" myths you propogate as well.
Every time SOE destroys a game their is a small horde of flaming defenders. That isn't evidence of anything, other than SOE has a small horde of defenders. Also, SOE goes to great lengths to get negative posts deleted and anti-SOE people banned.
What your test can't and doesn't show is that whether the players who have left the game think they improved it. After people leave a game, they usually never post about it. Most players who left SWG never posted a thing,
The fact is, however, there is a Classic Server movement at Vanguard which shows they did it again, regardless what YOU and your friends at SOE think.
Originally posted by Jodokai Originally posted by iceman00 Originally posted by Jodokai Fishermage: Since SOE and LucasArts are partners in this game, we have to assume all business decsions are made by both parties. Everything you're putting soley on SOE LucasArts also had a part in. I've also noticed a trend (and could go back and find the threads) where any time ANYTHING was said about SWG everyone immediately attributes it to SOE even if LucasArts is the one who said it. Let me give an example I've used in the past to respond to a lot of people: If I hire someone to kill my wife and someone does it, according to law, who is more responsible, the assassin or me? According to law I am more responsible than the assassin. Assuming LucasArts is me and SOE is the assassin, that's my reasoning behind putting more blame on LucasArts. And I really can't be wrong, since it is just my opinion. And I want to officially say "I told you so!". LucasArts pushes SOE to release SWG early and LucasArts is the good guy just trying to make the evil SOE live up to the contract. SOE makes Sigil release Vanguard early and their the evil perveyors of Vanguard's destruction. Now as far SOE "radically" changing all their games, the only one they've done it to is SWG. EQ I do hear complaints about the changes, but it's still the most successful game ever. No other game that has been out as long or longer has as many subs, so something has to be done right. Vanguard has BARELY changed, and most people say it's been changed for the better. MxO has also been VASTLY improved. EQ2 has been changed quite a bit, and everyone praises them for the changes. Are we really going to say SOE is evil for IMPROVING games?
Opinions can be quite wrong. If there's one thing I never understood, its the entire "well i really can't be wrong, its my opinion." While there isn't a smoking gun in this case, the strong case can (and has) been made that the evidence is that while LA certainly deserves part of the blame, the greater sin so to speak lies with SOE for their deceptive advertising, customer relations, quality control, etc. It's what one calls "an untenable opinion" and in most cases its worse than being wrong. Being wrong, when proven, people have the chance to change their stance. The untenable opinion crowd will do everything possible to cling to their myth typically. And nobody is claiming Lucasarts is "the good guy." It's just a debate between who is bad and who is worse. No opinions can't be wrong, but that's neither here nor there. You are aware of course that LucasArts is and always has been in charge of marketing. So any deceptive advertisements, came from them.
Actually opinions can be wrong. If you choose to hold an opinion that there is no such thng as gravity, you are wrong.
And everyone I've talked to LIKES the improvements to Vanguard, what makes your "Friends" more knowledgeable than mine? Let's not forget the fact that I STILL PLAY THE GAME, so I actually hear what's being said in chat. People are THRILLED with the improvements. Sure you have the people that are already whining about proposed changes that haven't happened yet (and may never), but based on what has ACTUALLY BEEN CHANGED, people like it.
I can say every time SOE improves a game, you have a horde of internet groupies that have nothing better to do than bash something when they have no idea what they're talking about. It's all about point of view.
And no opinions CAN'T be wrong. If I say there is no gravity, I'm stating a fact. Gravity either does or doesn't exist. When I say something does or doesn't exist, that isn't an opinion. Red cars are better than blue cars. Now that's an opinion, and since you think they can be wrong, go ahead and prove that one wrong.
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I don't want to get too into the contract as NONE of us know what's in it. I think that SOE has the licence for a certain period of time and once that time expires LucasArts can either renew or not, but again no one here knows for sure.
And I see the whole thread trying to say the people at LucasArts are clueless idiots that had no idea what was going on. All you're point of view I suppose.
I don't think anyone has said Lucas Arts was in the dark and most people here have said Lucas Arts is also to blame and just as guilty. This thread isn't about people defending Lucas Arts, but rather putting the creation blame where it should rest based on the known facts. I respect you want to believe what you think might have happened, but you are discussing things that fly in the face of what is known and just seem to be speculating for the sake of trying to validate the opinion you want to be true.
Someone else mentioned it doesn't matter who did what as they are both to blame. I disagree.
While both companies are to blame for allowing the NGE to happen in all the negative aspects it did, the important part of it is that whoever created it initially shows their lack of vision. The best option they could come up with to improve subscriptions was to destroy a profitable game by upending their customers and blindsiding them with changes that only benefit the company making them and not the current players.
There is only one company in this discussion that has that history in all of its games.
Actually it was a littany of personal defends but that's just splitting hairs, but I'll make you a deal. Prove to me that you've actually read one word I said, and tell me what my case is, then I'll prove it.
Sure, easy enough. You are claiming that they were the boss (true), and it is always the boss's fault (partly true, but here is where your argument starts to slip), and they approved of the ideas that SOE came up with (also true), therefore it is mostly LEC's fault (false).
The problem with your view is when I hire an expert, and that expert screws up the job, in a sense it's "my fault," I shouldn't have trusted the expert, so yeah, I've got to live with that. That still makes it completely the expert's fault in an absolute sense.
When I hire a doctor to perform an operation, and he tells me he knows what he is doing and that this operation will turn out well, and he botches the operation and it leaves me crippled; sure, it's MY fault, I trusted him to know what he's doing, and I signed a release, but I've still got a malpractice case.
As I have said both were at fault, but the PRIMARY fault, first for making the game a failure in a first place, which is part of what led LEC to ask for the changes, to the changes that SOE came up with, puts SOE in the primary fault position.
I understand your position but you have it all backwards. The boss is at fault, to be sure, but that boss is John Smedley.
fishermage.blogspot.com
You are also DRASTICALLY overstating what SOE has done in "all" their other games. Not only are you overstating it, you're not mentioning that in all the games they did make changes to with the exception of SWG, the vast majority of people say they were improvements. So that should read: There is only one company in this discussion that has a history of improving their games after release. And no one was "blindsided" by a drastic change like they were in SWG, which again, SOE is the same, only difference is LucasArts.
Let's not forget that we don't know how profitable SWG was before the change. Here's something else people like to forget, or like to pretend not to get. It's a really simple step in logic, but most people like to pretend is too obtuse to comprehend: In a complex system it is harder to nail down problems than it is in a simple system. Skill based systems are complex, class based systems are simple. Now lets think back to what everyone was complaining about prior to the NGE: Balance problems and bugs. How do you fix balance problems and bugs? Take a complex system and make it simple, that will make the job that much easier. Now I'm not saying, and will never say, the NGE was a good solution, but it did make what people were asking for easier to accomplish.
please let this game die......i cant see another thread of SWG and ppl complaining about this NGE crap, please, move the @!#$#$@^#$@^^ on people....its over, wake up, and move on.
Playing the blame game after the fact really is not constructive. It would be more contructive to talk about what SWG currently is not....a good immersive Star Wars game. Blame who you like but it wouldn't change the situation. Star Wars Galaxies has slowly devolved from a very decent Star Wars game into a game that only is dressed up to look like a Star Wars game. I seriously doubt that many people that play SWG really compare it at all to any Star Wars movie or book. So, SWG has jumped the shark as far as I am concerned and the only people to blame for that are the current developers.
Btw, it was not the CU or NGE that made me quit SWG. It was the lack of that Star Wars feel that drove me away.
Let's party like it is 1863!
Again you're not reading my posts. I will say again that I fully accept that SOE made the NGE, and I blame them ALMOST as much. I blame LucasArts more because they were in charge and pushed for a change.You are also DRASTICALLY overstating what SOE has done in "all" their other games. Not only are you overstating it, you're not mentioning that in all the games they did make changes to with the exception of SWG, the vast majority of people say they were improvements. So that should read: There is only one company in this discussion that has a history of improving their games after release. And no one was "blindsided" by a drastic change like they were in SWG, which again, SOE is the same, only difference is LucasArts.
Let's not forget that we don't know how profitable SWG was before the change. Here's something else people like to forget, or like to pretend not to get. It's a really simple step in logic, but most people like to pretend is too obtuse to comprehend: In a complex system it is harder to nail down problems than it is in a simple system. Skill based systems are complex, class based systems are simple. Now lets think back to what everyone was complaining about prior to the NGE: Balance problems and bugs. How do you fix balance problems and bugs? Take a complex system and make it simple, that will make the job that much easier. Now I'm not saying, and will never say, the NGE was a good solution, but it did make what people were asking for easier to accomplish.
How do you fix problems with balance and bugs? Take a complex system and make it simple? You know, I think you really believe that. I also think SOE staff (those that stayed) and management also believe that.
In reality, your statements boil down to "if we can't fix it, delete it." That's what was done. If you think that in any way addressed peoples requests for fixes and balance, you're very disconnected from what people were interested in.
Also, are you forgetting that bug fixes and balances were in the final stages of development in the CURB when SOE and LA management decided that copying WoW would be more lucrative?
So no, the NGE didn't address the requests for bug fixes and balances, in any way whatsoever. And, if you think the NGE was chosen to address current players' concerns at the time, then you haven't heard Jeff Freeman's disclosure that current players were considered expendable by management.
You are also DRASTICALLY overstating what SOE has done in "all" their other games. Not only are you overstating it, you're not mentioning that in all the games they did make changes to with the exception of SWG, the vast majority of people say they were improvements. So that should read: There is only one company in this discussion that has a history of improving their games after release. And no one was "blindsided" by a drastic change like they were in SWG, which again, SOE is the same, only difference is LucasArts.
Let's not forget that we don't know how profitable SWG was before the change. Here's something else people like to forget, or like to pretend not to get. It's a really simple step in logic, but most people like to pretend is too obtuse to comprehend: In a complex system it is harder to nail down problems than it is in a simple system. Skill based systems are complex, class based systems are simple. Now lets think back to what everyone was complaining about prior to the NGE: Balance problems and bugs. How do you fix balance problems and bugs? Take a complex system and make it simple, that will make the job that much easier. Now I'm not saying, and will never say, the NGE was a good solution, but it did make what people were asking for easier to accomplish.
tell me where you are getting your data that the change they made the EQ was a vast improvement; I have heard otherwise. Either way, it still shows a willingness to vastly change the game on players.
Same thing with Vanguard. And this they did AFTER they did the NGE, showing they have NOT learned.
How do you fix balance problems and bugs? you fix them; you don't change the core game to a new core game. That's idiotic, and usually merely coompounds your problems, which it did. The only things balanced now are things that are gone. ranger is real balanced. So is squadleader. bugs? Things still shoot through walls, since they still have walls.
Scout is free of bugs, however.
It not only failed at what they were "trying to accomplish" but it was the completely wrong approach and failed, just like everyone predicted.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Actually it was a littany of personal defends but that's just splitting hairs, but I'll make you a deal. Prove to me that you've actually read one word I said, and tell me what my case is, then I'll prove it.
Sure, easy enough. You are claiming that they were the boss (true), and it is always the boss's fault (partly true, but here is where your argument starts to slip), and they approved of the ideas that SOE came up with (also true), therefore it is mostly LEC's fault (false).
The problem with your view is when I hire an expert, and that expert screws up the job, in a sense it's "my fault," I shouldn't have trusted the expert, so yeah, I've got to live with that. That still makes it completely the expert's fault in an absolute sense.
When I hire a doctor to perform an operation, and he tells me he knows what he is doing and that this operation will turn out well, and he botches the operation and it leaves me crippled; sure, it's MY fault, I trusted him to know what he's doing, and I signed a release, but I've still got a malpractice case.
As I have said both were at fault, but the PRIMARY fault, first for making the game a failure in a first place, which is part of what led LEC to ask for the changes, to the changes that SOE came up with, puts SOE in the primary fault position.
I understand your position but you have it all backwards. The boss is at fault, to be sure, but that boss is John Smedley.
You know, I believe SOE and LA have responsibility for what happened. Both of them. What I object to is when the blame game is used as a smoke screen for unethical decisions and behaviour.
The fact that both LA and SOE are responsible for the NGE doesn't dismiss these facts:
SOE sold us an expansion and then rendered the features we just bought useless,
SOE broke movement, chat and combat with the NGE,
SOE deleted most people's mastered professions,
SOE locked people's pets up in their datapads,
SOE made crafting useless,
SOE asked for feedback on the forums and then banned people for providing it, even respectfully,
SOE initially refused refunds on the expansion, and then later relented when legal action was suggested,
I could go on, but these are enough examples of specific actions taken by SOE.
Did LucasArts tell them to make all of those specific decisions and take all of those particular actions? If so, we certainly haven't heard anything about it.
Saying that LucasArts directed SOE to make the game more profitable, like Wow, doesn't dismiss SOE's responsibility for it's own actions.
You know what I would say if my boss told me to defraud people, or offer a service that I know is well below an acceptable standard. I would say no. In fact I've been in that exact situation, and I said no. It can be done, and it should be done.
The fact of the matter is though, LucasArts didn't tell SOE to pull all of this specific NGE crap. SOE devs invented it, by their own admission, and sold it to the management at SOE. SOE management got WoW in their eyes, and sold the NGE idea to LA, who approved it. This has all been disclosed by current or former SOE staff.
So, go ahead Jodokai and say LucasArts had a role to play; of course they did. This does not, however, in any way relieve SOE of responsibility for their actions. LA wanted changes, and LA approved the NGE. SOE did all the above, and people are still pissed with them for it, even more so when they try to justify or rationalize it.
This would all come to a resolution if LA and SOE would both step up and acknowledge their roles in the disaster and publically apologize to everyone they treated like garbage. LA has never done this, and Smed has made unofficial apologies, some of which have been laced with rationalization, on third party websites.
An nice official "SOE and LA jointly apologize for the way we have treated the players of SWG over the years. It was wrong to market an expansion and then render its features useless. It was wrong to keep you in the dark about the direction of the game. It was wrong to release a revamp that broke all of the core game mechanics. It was wrong to render all your progress useless. It was wrong to envy our competitors and abandon our playerbase to try to get theirs." Yeah that would be an honest attempt to make ammends. It hasn't happened, and until it does, blame games and rationalizations are only going to add fuel to the embers. I expect this fire to burn for some time yet.
Furthermore, I told SOE and LA back in 2005 that if they played these games it would just keep people pissed off with their b.s. all the longer. Of course I told them not to implement the NGE as well. As did a few thousand others. But, they don't listen, and they continue along the same self-destructive path.
If I didn't care about gamers and the quality of services provided to us, and if I didn't really give a rats behind about the StarWars story, I'd remain silent and let SOE destroy itself with its own greed and stupidity. Now that I"m thinking of it, maybe that's what needs to happen before we see a real change from them.
Actually it was a littany of personal defends but that's just splitting hairs, but I'll make you a deal. Prove to me that you've actually read one word I said, and tell me what my case is, then I'll prove it.
Sure, easy enough. You are claiming that they were the boss (true), and it is always the boss's fault (partly true, but here is where your argument starts to slip), and they approved of the ideas that SOE came up with (also true), therefore it is mostly LEC's fault (false).
The problem with your view is when I hire an expert, and that expert screws up the job, in a sense it's "my fault," I shouldn't have trusted the expert, so yeah, I've got to live with that. That still makes it completely the expert's fault in an absolute sense.
When I hire a doctor to perform an operation, and he tells me he knows what he is doing and that this operation will turn out well, and he botches the operation and it leaves me crippled; sure, it's MY fault, I trusted him to know what he's doing, and I signed a release, but I've still got a malpractice case.
As I have said both were at fault, but the PRIMARY fault, first for making the game a failure in a first place, which is part of what led LEC to ask for the changes, to the changes that SOE came up with, puts SOE in the primary fault position.
I understand your position but you have it all backwards. The boss is at fault, to be sure, but that boss is John Smedley.
You know, I believe SOE and LA have responsibility for what happened. Both of them. What I object to is when the blame game is used as a smoke screen for unethical decisions and behaviour.
The fact that both LA and SOE are responsible for the NGE doesn't dismiss these facts:
SOE sold us an expansion and then rendered the features we just bought useless,
SOE broke movement, chat and combat with the NGE,
SOE deleted most people's mastered professions,
SOE locked people's pets up in their datapads,
SOE made crafting useless,
SOE asked for feedback on the forums and then banned people for providing it, even respectfully,
SOE initially refused refunds on the expansion, and then later relented when legal action was suggested,
I could go on, but these are enough examples of specific actions taken by SOE.
Did LucasArts tell them to make all of those specific decisions and take all of those particular actions? If so, we certainly haven't heard anything about it.
Saying that LucasArts directed SOE to make the game more profitable, like Wow, doesn't dismiss SOE's responsibility for it's own actions.
You know what I would say if my boss told me to defraud people, or offer a service that I know is well below an acceptable standard. I would say no. In fact I've been in that exact situation, and I said no. It can be done, and it should be done.
The fact of the matter is though, LucasArts didn't tell SOE to pull all of this specific NGE crap. SOE devs invented it, by their own admission, and sold it to the management at SOE. SOE management got WoW in their eyes, and sold the NGE idea to LA, who approved it. This has all been disclosed by current or former SOE staff.
So, go ahead Jodokai and say LucasArts had a role to play; of course they did. This does not, however, in any way relieve SOE of responsibility for their actions. LA wanted changes, and LA approved the NGE. SOE did all the above, and people are still pissed with them for it, even more so when they try to justify or rationalize it.
This would all come to a resolution if LA and SOE would both step up and acknowledge their roles in the disaster and publically apologize to everyone they treated like garbage. LA has never done this, and Smed has made unofficial apologies, some of which have been laced with rationalization, on third party websites.
An nice official "SOE and LA jointly apologize for the way we have treated the players of SWG over the years. It was wrong to market an expansion and then render its features useless. It was wrong to keep you in the dark about the direction of the game. It was wrong to release a revamp that broke all of the core game mechanics. It was wrong to render all your progress useless. It was wrong to envy our competitors and abandon our playerbase to try to get theirs." Yeah that would be an honest attempt to make ammends. It hasn't happened, and until it does, blame games and rationalizations are only going to add fuel to the embers. I expect this fire to burn for some time yet.
Also, since SOE keeps doing it, I don't really have much faith in anything they do or say. players of Vanguard know what I mean; after all, they are the ones asking for Classic Servers now.
It LOOKS as if LEC HAS actually learned something; even JULIO may have learned something: shortly after handing him FORCE UNLEASHED, it was determined that the game would not be ready and they decided not to rush things and pushed the date back.V
Hopefully that's a sign of good things to come. Look at SWG PRESENTLY and at Vanguard, I'm not thrilled with what I see from SOE.
I know SOE can blame Brad and Sigil for the mess that was Vanguard, but THEY decided to release it before it was ready, and THEY decided to "NGE" it.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Actually it was a littany of personal defends but that's just splitting hairs, but I'll make you a deal. Prove to me that you've actually read one word I said, and tell me what my case is, then I'll prove it.
Sure, easy enough. You are claiming that they were the boss (true), and it is always the boss's fault (partly true, but here is where your argument starts to slip), and they approved of the ideas that SOE came up with (also true), therefore it is mostly LEC's fault (false).
The problem with your view is when I hire an expert, and that expert screws up the job, in a sense it's "my fault," I shouldn't have trusted the expert, so yeah, I've got to live with that. That still makes it completely the expert's fault in an absolute sense.
When I hire a doctor to perform an operation, and he tells me he knows what he is doing and that this operation will turn out well, and he botches the operation and it leaves me crippled; sure, it's MY fault, I trusted him to know what he's doing, and I signed a release, but I've still got a malpractice case.
As I have said both were at fault, but the PRIMARY fault, first for making the game a failure in a first place, which is part of what led LEC to ask for the changes, to the changes that SOE came up with, puts SOE in the primary fault position.
I understand your position but you have it all backwards. The boss is at fault, to be sure, but that boss is John Smedley.
You know, I believe SOE and LA have responsibility for what happened. Both of them. What I object to is when the blame game is used as a smoke screen for unethical decisions and behaviour.
The fact that both LA and SOE are responsible for the NGE doesn't dismiss these facts:
SOE sold us an expansion and then rendered the features we just bought useless,
SOE broke movement, chat and combat with the NGE,
SOE deleted most people's mastered professions,
SOE locked people's pets up in their datapads,
SOE made crafting useless,
SOE asked for feedback on the forums and then banned people for providing it, even respectfully,
SOE initially refused refunds on the expansion, and then later relented when legal action was suggested,
I could go on, but these are enough examples of specific actions taken by SOE.
Did LucasArts tell them to make all of those specific decisions and take all of those particular actions? If so, we certainly haven't heard anything about it.
Saying that LucasArts directed SOE to make the game more profitable, like Wow, doesn't dismiss SOE's responsibility for it's own actions.
You know what I would say if my boss told me to defraud people, or offer a service that I know is well below an acceptable standard. I would say no. In fact I've been in that exact situation, and I said no. It can be done, and it should be done.
The fact of the matter is though, LucasArts didn't tell SOE to pull all of this specific NGE crap. SOE devs invented it, by their own admission, and sold it to the management at SOE. SOE management got WoW in their eyes, and sold the NGE idea to LA, who approved it. This has all been disclosed by current or former SOE staff.
So, go ahead Jodokai and say LucasArts had a role to play; of course they did. This does not, however, in any way relieve SOE of responsibility for their actions. LA wanted changes, and LA approved the NGE. SOE did all the above, and people are still pissed with them for it, even more so when they try to justify or rationalize it.
This would all come to a resolution if LA and SOE would both step up and acknowledge their roles in the disaster and publically apologize to everyone they treated like garbage. LA has never done this, and Smed has made unofficial apologies, some of which have been laced with rationalization, on third party websites.
An nice official "SOE and LA jointly apologize for the way we have treated the players of SWG over the years. It was wrong to market an expansion and then render its features useless. It was wrong to keep you in the dark about the direction of the game. It was wrong to release a revamp that broke all of the core game mechanics. It was wrong to render all your progress useless. It was wrong to envy our competitors and abandon our playerbase to try to get theirs." Yeah that would be an honest attempt to make ammends. It hasn't happened, and until it does, blame games and rationalizations are only going to add fuel to the embers. I expect this fire to burn for some time yet.
Also, since SOE keeps doing it, I don't really have much faith in anything they do or say. players of Vanguard know what I mean; after all, they are the ones asking for Classic Servers now.
It LOOKS as if LEC HAS actually learned something; even JULIO may have learned something: shortly after handing him FORCE UNLEASHED, it was determined that the game would not be ready and they decided not to rush things and pushed the date back.V
Hopefully that's a sign of good things to come. Look at SWG PRESENTLY and at Vanguard, I'm not thrilled with what I see from SOE.
I know SOE can blame Brad and Sigil for the mess that was Vanguard, but THEY decided to release it before it was ready, and THEY decided to "NGE" it.
Yup they pushed for the early release (again). Had a horrible launch of a bug infested product (again). Promised to make it better (again). NGEed it (again). Now are having requests for classic servers (again). And have a playing community tearing each other up over preferences regarding the original game mechanics and the new simplified ones (again). And Smed says, "we've learned from our mistakes." Oh really.
I read your post and think we are closer than you think with a few differences, big ones though.
You say Lucas Arts pushed for changes, but we all know the freeman group campaigned for many weeks to get changes considered and passed. That doesn't sound like they were forced to do something. Really SOE was hired to be the experts, the people with the experience. No one really knows what Lucas Arts said to SOE, but almost anything would be understandable considering how terrible SOE was handling the game. I don't blame LA for wanting improvements at all. Blamed for the greed it turned into yes, but I highly doubt LA forced them to re-engineer the game for a third time. That is a SOE trademark kneejerk reaction.
As for the changes they make, not everyone thinks they were improvements. Those who stuck around might, but many many left due to those changes. Seeing that there were less players after the changes than prior to I am going to have to disagree with your claims.
As for blindsiding. SOE blind sided EQ2 players with station exchange and initially told them ALL server would be converted and those who didn't like it could move to new non-exchange servers. They blindsided several servers in EQ, EQ2 and SWG with server mergers from their failed attempts to market there. In some cases they tried to deny anything happened. Not to mention how many "revamps" and "__insert mechanic here__ upgrades" they have done post launch.
As for not knowing how profitable SWG was I have one statement to that. Second largest MMO in North America at the time. It is silly to even suggest that the game might somehow not be profitable. Showing a trend of subscriber losses yes.
The best way to change a complex system is to make it easier and the added benefit of being able to get things done quicker as a result? The NGE has been out longer than all other versions of SWG combined. Still no collision detection that was promised with 6 months. Still not enough quests to level 1-90 on. Still bugs from the release of the NGE. ZERO expansions for the game. Years later and they are still in the process of doing class revamps. How many times have the devs been quoted as saying "that would be to hard" in response to questions? No, I submit nothing has been made easier to do and in fact has been made more difficult as a result. Not that these changes were ever designed to fix the problems of the game in the first place. They were 100% designed to attract WoW subscribers with no regard to how it would affect the current players.
Fishermage:
Since SOE and LucasArts are partners in this game, we have to assume all business decsions are made by both parties. Everything you're putting soley on SOE LucasArts also had a part in. I've also noticed a trend (and could go back and find the threads) where any time ANYTHING was said about SWG everyone immediately attributes it to SOE even if LucasArts is the one who said it.
Let me give an example I've used in the past to respond to a lot of people: If I hire someone to kill my wife and someone does it, according to law, who is more responsible, the assassin or me? According to law I am more responsible than the assassin. Assuming LucasArts is me and SOE is the assassin, that's my reasoning behind putting more blame on LucasArts. And I really can't be wrong, since it is just my opinion.
And I want to officially say "I told you so!". LucasArts pushes SOE to release SWG early and LucasArts is the good guy just trying to make the evil SOE live up to the contract. SOE makes Sigil release Vanguard early and their the evil perveyors of Vanguard's destruction.
Now as far SOE "radically" changing all their games, the only one they've done it to is SWG. EQ I do hear complaints about the changes, but it's still the most successful game ever. No other game that has been out as long or longer has as many subs, so something has to be done right. Vanguard has BARELY changed, and most people say it's been changed for the better. MxO has also been VASTLY improved. EQ2 has been changed quite a bit, and everyone praises them for the changes. Are we really going to say SOE is evil for IMPROVING games?
I'm not putting anything solely on SOE; I am saying BOTh are at fault, on;y SOE moreso.
The assassin one is a VERY bad analogy. My doctor one is much better. In taht no one ais hiring anyone to specifically do evil. One is hiring someone to do good, and the one hired does something wrong.
As to your last part, you are just wrong. As I have said there are people who stopped playing SOE games after the EQ changes, they just did the same thin to Vanguard. They haven't improved those game according to people I've talked to. You are unique in this. I understand you don't see it that way though. You seem to have a very unique perspectove on a great many things.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Simple logic says you don't change a persistent world in a way that nullifies players' efforts, period. SOE has a history of doing that, no matter how you want to spin it.
Plus, show me one player who bashed the game pre-CU who continue to bash what SOE did with the CU/NGE. I would like to see the context for this blanket statement. What I witnessed was most people whocame out against the CU and the later NGE were NOT people who complained about the game earlier; in fact, the CU/NGE is what got them posting in the first place.
PLUS, being critical of what was wrong with the game since release, and understanding that the CU and the NGE did not address that, is what the main critique is all about. SOE's mismanagement of developer assets is what made the game a failure in the beginning, and then trying to cover that up by ripping the game apart and starting over again with first the CU, and then the NGE, was a continuance of failure, only in a new way.
That's the point here.
fishermage.blogspot.com
eq2players.station.sony.com/news_archive_content.vm
That is a quick link where you can see the intentions even though edited parts you can see that they could change all the servers to station enabled. I will have to revise my statement to say they had plans to change all the servers and could instead of would until I can find the statements as they were first posted and not edited like that article was. As I recall that post and the Poll where made the day after the announcement and in response to the uproar. I know the original message I am looking for was in the exchange discussion forum that was deleted.
Needless to say that is a giant blindside to the players. It doesn't matter that they announced before doing it, because SOE until that point had spoken very loudly about RMT having a negative impact on their games and they would do everything they could to stop it. That is until they learned they could make a buck on it, then they proved the WOULD/COULD do it to your server and tough luck for you.
Lots of games have revamps per say. However they are not stupid enough to try are rebalance 24 classes at the same time, because it just doesn't work. It accomplishes almost nothing as it solves a few problems, but also creates just as many. EQ2 revamp just shifted around the issues and changed basic elements of classes people made their initial choice based on. I remember the nightmare it was as I tested the changes (which were going on at the same time as beta testing the new expansion which just made that even worse). Most games do these changes to enhance the short comings of a class or fix some missing elements to make it more rounded in the over all system, but they do it in small controlled steps so the effects can be measured. The SOE method is more of a sweepeing redesign that changes to many core aspcts in comparison.
I will agree that in theory it is easier to fix a complex problem if the mechanics are simplified. However that shouldn't be a topic of discussion here as it is very clear that this was not the reason the NGE came to be. The NGE was made to attract new players despite any effects it had on the current players, which is why it was kept such a secret until the last moment.
Opinions can be quite wrong. If there's one thing I never understood, its the entire "well i really can't be wrong, its my opinion." While there isn't a smoking gun in this case, the strong case can (and has) been made that the evidence is that while LA certainly deserves part of the blame, the greater sin so to speak lies with SOE for their deceptive advertising, customer relations, quality control, etc. It's what one calls "an untenable opinion" and in most cases its worse than being wrong. Being wrong, when proven, people have the chance to change their stance. The untenable opinion crowd will do everything possible to cling to their myth typically.
And nobody is claiming Lucasarts is "the good guy." It's just a debate between who is bad and who is worse.
Opinions can be quite wrong. If there's one thing I never understood, its the entire "well i really can't be wrong, its my opinion." While there isn't a smoking gun in this case, the strong case can (and has) been made that the evidence is that while LA certainly deserves part of the blame, the greater sin so to speak lies with SOE for their deceptive advertising, customer relations, quality control, etc. It's what one calls "an untenable opinion" and in most cases its worse than being wrong. Being wrong, when proven, people have the chance to change their stance. The untenable opinion crowd will do everything possible to cling to their myth typically.
And nobody is claiming Lucasarts is "the good guy." It's just a debate between who is bad and who is worse.
No opinions can't be wrong, but that's neither here nor there. You are aware of course that LucasArts is and always has been in charge of marketing. So any deceptive advertisements, came from them.
I'm not putting anything solely on SOE; I am saying BOTh are at fault, on;y SOE moreso.
The assassin one is a VERY bad analogy. My doctor one is much better. In taht no one ais hiring anyone to specifically do evil. One is hiring someone to do good, and the one hired does something wrong.
As to your last part, you are just wrong. As I have said there are people who stopped playing SOE games after the EQ changes, they just did the same thin to Vanguard. They haven't improved those game according to people I've talked to. You are unique in this. I understand you don't see it that way though. You seem to have a very unique perspectove on a great many things.
Really I'm wrong? I'm the only one that thinks SOE improved Vanguard? Just to test that theory, I went to the Vanguard forums on this site. First non-sticky thread in that forum has people saying the game has improved since launch. When to GUComics.com First post about Vanguard, again people saying the game has improved. So I would dare say that your perspective seems to be more unique than mine.
I'm not putting anything solely on SOE; I am saying BOTh are at fault, on;y SOE moreso.
The assassin one is a VERY bad analogy. My doctor one is much better. In taht no one ais hiring anyone to specifically do evil. One is hiring someone to do good, and the one hired does something wrong.
As to your last part, you are just wrong. As I have said there are people who stopped playing SOE games after the EQ changes, they just did the same thin to Vanguard. They haven't improved those game according to people I've talked to. You are unique in this. I understand you don't see it that way though. You seem to have a very unique perspectove on a great many things.
Really I'm wrong? I'm the only one that thinks SOE improved Vanguard? Just to test that theory, I went to the Vanguard forums on this site. First non-sticky thread in that forum has people saying the game has improved since launch. When to GUComics.com First post about Vanguard, again people saying the game has improved. So I would dare say that your perspective seems to be more unique than mine.
Ah so lovely to watch people nitpick their way through people's posts, instead of looking at the thrust of what people say, or even what they actually say. I will, as a kindness to you,stand corrected; you are in a slim minority -- sorry I used the word unique, even though I was only speaking of people I have talked to, amd that has nothing to do wiith your shallow "test."
Look at the forums on this site for SWG. Look at the official forums. MANY people claiming the NGE is great, and all the "it came from LA" myths you propogate as well.
Every time SOE destroys a game their is a small horde of flaming defenders. That isn't evidence of anything, other than SOE has a small horde of defenders. Also, SOE goes to great lengths to get negative posts deleted and anti-SOE people banned.
What your test can't and doesn't show is that whether the players who have left the game think they improved it. After people leave a game, they usually never post about it. Most players who left SWG never posted a thing,
The fact is, however, there is a Classic Server movement at Vanguard which shows they did it again, regardless what YOU and your friends at SOE think.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Opinions can be quite wrong. If there's one thing I never understood, its the entire "well i really can't be wrong, its my opinion." While there isn't a smoking gun in this case, the strong case can (and has) been made that the evidence is that while LA certainly deserves part of the blame, the greater sin so to speak lies with SOE for their deceptive advertising, customer relations, quality control, etc. It's what one calls "an untenable opinion" and in most cases its worse than being wrong. Being wrong, when proven, people have the chance to change their stance. The untenable opinion crowd will do everything possible to cling to their myth typically.
And nobody is claiming Lucasarts is "the good guy." It's just a debate between who is bad and who is worse.
No opinions can't be wrong, but that's neither here nor there. You are aware of course that LucasArts is and always has been in charge of marketing. So any deceptive advertisements, came from them.
Actually opinions can be wrong. If you choose to hold an opinion that there is no such thng as gravity, you are wrong.
fishermage.blogspot.com
I didn't know donkies could add this up...
You nailed the burrow on the head...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
And everyone I've talked to LIKES the improvements to Vanguard, what makes your "Friends" more knowledgeable than mine? Let's not forget the fact that I STILL PLAY THE GAME, so I actually hear what's being said in chat. People are THRILLED with the improvements. Sure you have the people that are already whining about proposed changes that haven't happened yet (and may never), but based on what has ACTUALLY BEEN CHANGED, people like it.
I can say every time SOE improves a game, you have a horde of internet groupies that have nothing better to do than bash something when they have no idea what they're talking about. It's all about point of view.
And no opinions CAN'T be wrong. If I say there is no gravity, I'm stating a fact. Gravity either does or doesn't exist. When I say something does or doesn't exist, that isn't an opinion. Red cars are better than blue cars. Now that's an opinion, and since you think they can be wrong, go ahead and prove that one wrong.