ummm...so the thread is from last year? so? oh, and notice he had to come here and complain...because...there...are...no...official...forums...also notice many others agreeing with him...on a forum where the company cannot see it...
I had a couple of reasons stating that date.
1) Can you honestly expect the player support to be on-top even after about 7 years after release?
2) Many years of age on a game without an official forum... hmmm! How could they have done it? :O
While your previous comment made me chuckle, this one made me laugh. You try to push it even further Stating a very bland sentence like the one I colored green.
And he didn't HAVE to come here and complain ROFL. His intention behind the entire post was to vent his dissapointment with the makers. Why would he vent to them even further on that matter after already obviously having enough with them? Couldn't that be a reason why he came here instead?
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
no im not going to dig through the internet to find the one fansite that hasn't deleted the negative posts..
gee, it sure is hard to find a negative thought on that game...guess mythic does know what they are doing..
Oh gosh... now you are trolling!
You expect ANY company to be completely 100% complaint free? You make the lamest attempt to try and proof a point I've seen to date on theese forums and yet support it with even more weird comments like "mythic does know what they are doing" - to delete all complaints?
Go ahead and bring me more of this and I will get me some pop-corn while waiting
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
The whole argument your trying to make about the ingame csr being great isnt a valid in my opinion because outside of the game customer support via a forum is the point of the argument not being pm'd by a gm ingame.
(and i use to be one for a while at blizz and i can hardly spell go me)
There is no exscuse for lack of customer support in this day and age you can keep burrying your head in sand you dont even make any good argument all you do is post retarded comments to try and peeve people off. @ durahell.
ummm...so the thread is from last year? so? oh, and notice he had to come here and complain...because...there...are...no...official...forums...also notice many others agreeing with him...on a forum where the company cannot see it...
I had a couple of reasons stating that date.
1) Can you honestly expect the player support to be on-top even after about 7 years after release?
so if the game runs for a few years its a good excuse to ignore the people who write your checks?
2) Many years of age on a game without an official forum... hmmm! How could they have done it? :O
a game with a much smaller playerbase than this one will.
While your previous comment made me chuckle, this one made me laugh. You try to push it even further Stating a very bland sentence like the one I colored green.
And he didn't HAVE to come here and complain ROFL. His intention behind the entire post was to vent his dissapointment with the makers. Why would he vent to them even further on that matter after already obviously having enough with them? Couldn't that be a reason why he came here instead?
he came here instead of where? a fansite that would say "cry more noob!"?
The whole argument your trying to make about the ingame csr being great isnt a valid in my opinion because outside of the game customer support via a forum is the point of the argument not being pm'd by a gm ingame. I'm not trying to make it sound great, stop misteading my posts please. I'm just questioning all the paranoia out of thin air when the game has not even yet been released and it's customer service has been put to test. There is no exscuse for lack of customer support in this day and age you can keep burrying your head in sand you dont even make any good argument all you do is post retarded comments to try and peeve people off. @ durahell. Thank you for using the word "retarded". Very unnecessary to say the least. I don't see any good arguments untill I believe them. And I can't believe them untill they are proofen. And that's why I'm here. I like discussing about things like theese where people just go at stuff with knifes for no real reasons. I will continue ... eh ... "hiding" my head under the sand with my posts. However that connects I do not know :O
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
(1) so if the game runs for a few years its a good excuse to ignore the people who write your checks?
(2) a game with a much smaller playerbase than this one will. (3) he came here instead of where? a fansite that would say "cry more noob!"?
(1) But I didn't say IGNORE did I? I said just as good. And especially now with a new game of theirs coming up. And I did see happy people even in the thread you linked.
(2) However that will be an issue time will tell. But maby it won't even get that much of a bigger audience?
(3) I dunno, are you gonna link me an example by any chance? Cus I could link you millions of OFFICIAL thread posts which does the same
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
(1) so if the game runs for a few years its a good excuse to ignore the people who write your checks?
(2) a game with a much smaller playerbase than this one will. (3) he came here instead of where? a fansite that would say "cry more noob!"?
(1) But I didn't say IGNORE did I? I said just as good. And especially now with a new game of theirs coming up. And I did see happy people even in the thread you linked.
(2) However that will be an issue time will tell. But maby it won't even get that much of a bigger audience?
(3) I dunno, are you gonna link me an example by any chance? Cus I could link you millions of OFFICIAL thread posts which does the same
(3) I dunno, are you gonna link me an example by any chance? Cus I could link you millions of OFFICIAL thread posts which does the same
go for it.
Oh my... for real? I really hope somebody here is reading all of this, and having great fun while doing it
I really don't feel I should need to do this, because it's so obviously ... obvious, but if you insist? Really? I will update this post with some findings. Unless somebody comes to my rescue so I won't have to >_<
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
(3) I dunno, are you gonna link me an example by any chance? Cus I could link you millions of OFFICIAL thread posts which does the same
go for it.
Oh my... for real? I really hope somebody here is reading all of this, and having great fun while doing it
I really don't feel I should need to do this, because it's so obviously ... obvious, but if you insist? Really? I will update this post with some findings. Unless somebody comes to my rescue so I won't have to >_<
Please do, lets keep this thread going. It's been entertaining so far...
There's nothing wrong with a good long discussion, but watch the personal attacks, yeah? If you've got something to say, try and say it without calling the other person a fanboy or a troll or whatnot. If somebody crosses the line, don't attack them back; Two people having it out on the forums rarely results in anything productive. Finally, if you have issues with somebody's opinions, attack those opinions, not the person who supports them. As my grandfather once said, an argument must stand or fall on its own merits.
Lidane I would like to know, just how much have you been reading up on Customer Service by Mythic?
I haven't paid much attention to Mythic since quitting DAoC years ago. I've read bits and pieces about their CS at various forums over the years since then, some positive, some not, just like any other game.
Thing is, I don't care that Marc Jacobs supposedly settled this issue of official forums years ago. Brad McQuaid did the same thing at Sigil, and for much the same reasons as what Jacobs cites. We saw how well that went for VG, and as soon as the game was no longer Sigil's, SOE had complete official forums up for the game.
The MMO market now isn't the same as it was when DAoC was released. Millions of players have since entered the genre, and there are a multitude of games to choose from. And as Brad McQuaid learned the hard way, there is only a very, very narrow window to make an impression on people because they've got so many choices. Because of that, people will look at a variety of things-- gameplay, graphics, the fan community, and even customer service. If they find any of these lacking, even in the first month, they're largely inclined to cancel their sub and go back to whatever they were playing before.
The days of toughing it out in a game world for months, or even years because there wasn't anything else to play are over. Ergo, game companies have to launch with their A game, including forums to give their potential players the impression that they're proud of their game, and that they welcome both positive and negative feedback on their official site, and at the developer's expense. It's a part of the package that shows that they're serious about competing in the market, and that they want to offer in-depth service for people.
I know people like to point at the current system that Mythic has, but the fact is, that system is old, and based on outdated ideas. It might have worked when DAoC was one of a handful of games around, but now, with so many other games to pick from, I'm not so sure it's viable anymore. Things have changed too dramatically in the market that I really don't see how they'll be competitive without a forum.
Anyway, I can give another example of why I prefer official forums.
Whenever there's problems logging in or something drops the first place i go is the wow support forums to see if anyone else is having the same issues since it's a centralized place for cryouts if there's something wrong with more than just me it'll be there within a matter of seconds.
This was very useful for me to be able to update our IRC channel topic on new issues right away. Without official forums, this'll be more difficult for me and mostly, will not be known until Mythic decides to tell me that there is something wrong.
This is also because of another reason. I'm an EU player. However I mostly frequent the VNboards, and sometimes here but not usually after a game gets released.
The VN boards however are mostly used by US players, not EU. I don't care for following some random new spawned EU forum just to be able to get info on EU tech problems or whatever as it happens. I would much prefer official forums for this.
That said, I also simply feel it's an extra service that should be provided for the people that actually like using them, and personally feel like it seems they are chosing not to have them out of selfish reasons rather than looking at it from a customer point of view. The cost argument in my opinion is ridiculous, the costs involved with running a forum with a small staff are negligeable at best compared to the rest of the operating costs.
My opinion (as I thought this thread could use just one or two more) is that official forums are needed as a pseudo check and balance. Yes, I completely agree that forums official or non are dramafests with conspiracies, e-feelings and complete oversue of the words noob, fanboi and . It goes both ways. But as I too have played quite a few mmo's in my time on this mudball and in my experience, official forums are a necessary evil.
1. They allow for a single meeting point to gather information or to find other communities on the same subject. Every single mmo I have ever played on that had multiple servers had a forum that related to information specific to that server. It was a place to learn about each other when not in game or to read about events (nonguild related) while afk. Was it necessary to enjoy the game? Nope. But it enhanced the experience and the feeling of belonging to a community.
This can be done unoffcially as well but then - who is considere the true source of this knowledge? Who do you turn to? Even at best, this will still divide the knowledge and information to multiple locations thus losing its effectiveness to to lost percentages of viewers or the lost time that it takes to gather all of the pieces of it together to get the true picture.
2. Official forums hold the company accountable. Here is why - when people post in mass about issues on official boards - they are more likely to be addressed. It become a pimple on their public face. True you could use the email addresses or the phone lines but that allows the battle to be minimalized into an individual cause. One on one - the communities needs will be minimalized. Which is more effective - a glaring 20 page thread about an issue or Bob, the tech support guy telling his boss - "Yeah I had a few calls about this one issue."
And more importantly - it provides an out for a company. Since the forums are unofficial and numerous - the devs and staff are not responsible for anything posted there and are under no obligation to read them. "Got issues? How are we supposed to know? We do not actively read this forum..."
Now as time constricts me from writing much more - I understand those of you who have played under these conditions before - have no issue with the lack of an official forum. You are commited to the game and in all - your opinions and likes and dislikes are yours and thus nothing allows me to criticize you for them. I would be the equivalent of me arguing with you about your favorite food.
However, as someone who is actively seeking an mmo that I can commit myself to and someone who has seen the gambit and been burned a few times - the reasons given behind not housing an official forums have me concerned enough to even post in this thread. The game looks interesting enough and I hope it does give WoW a run for its money. Competition makes things better for all of us but I digress you aren't reading this to hear me talk about that.
In summary, official forums are a necessary evil for consolidated and timely information. Yes google is quick but try looking for antarian rangers sometime on the web. You may lose about 1/2 an houror more weeding through the deadwood and spam sites to get the details that you are looking for.
Will the game function without one? Yepper. Will the hardcore fans still play it? You bet! But when going for WoW like numbers - a company must be willing to accomodate a little bit of everything for everyone. But isolating certain types of players - there is one more obstacle in your path to try and take the king down.
Would just like to add that non official forums also have their place. I use the EJ forums much more often than the official forums for WoW, so there is a place for both. But your second point about accountability is very important for me.
Ways to solve 'accountability' on official forums....Overzealous and almost alll official forums have 2 or 3...Modarators Delete any and all threads of negative remarks whether its enlightening dev's to bugs, exploits, or general distaste for new mechanics before dev's see it and their feelings are 'crushed'.
This happens on unofficial forums sometimes too but its far more likely your voice will be heard and remain in place for Dev's to actually see it ... probably not feel crushed since usually the general over all reaction to such posts on unofficial forums is more mature. I usually hate using the word mature immature etc etc but its usually far more likely that mature and more well groomed people show up on the unofficial forums since it requires time and effort to find a good forum. (really hates using that word since everyone has bad days and occasionally makes an ass of themselves).
And who the hell uses the wow forums for actual information? Everyone knows the best information for In Game stuff is THottBot. WoW's forums are usually "Waah my class is nerf..or Waah x class is over powered or Waahh The Burning Crusade doesn't work right on my computer or ...WoW broke my Mods etc etc. And those are just the ones that aren't instantily deleted by Mods.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
I don't think it would hurt to have it around but I just can't imagine this being a game breaking issue. Some of you have some great forums for it but one thing I disagree with is the statement that it will turn new players to the genre off. The reason I disagree is because if they are new to the genre they obviously haven't played another MMO before and wouldn't know if the others did or didn't have official forums, or what is better, with or without. Ultimately they will end up asking where most people go to find information on the game and people will tell them where they think is best.
(3) I dunno, are you gonna link me an example by any chance? Cus I could link you millions of OFFICIAL thread posts which does the same
go for it.
Oh my... for real? I really hope somebody here is reading all of this, and having great fun while doing it
I really don't feel I should need to do this, because it's so obviously ... obvious, but if you insist? Really? I will update this post with some findings. Unless somebody comes to my rescue so I won't have to >_<
OMG of course you can find links to games run by companies that allow discussion on their dime. can't do the same for doac though can you? that was the whole point.
(3) I dunno, are you gonna link me an example by any chance? Cus I could link you millions of OFFICIAL thread posts which does the same
go for it.
Oh my... for real? I really hope somebody here is reading all of this, and having great fun while doing it
I really don't feel I should need to do this, because it's so obviously ... obvious, but if you insist? Really? I will update this post with some findings. Unless somebody comes to my rescue so I won't have to >_<
OMG of course you can find links to games run by companies that allow discussion on their dime. can't do the same for doac though can you? that was the whole point.
Wow well next time instead of saying "go for it" as in you want him to find threads on OFFICIAL forums where people say "go cry nub!" or w/e you stated previously, tell him you want to see that on DAoC...lol. He did exactly what you challenged him to do.
-------------------------------------- A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
I don't think it would hurt to have it around but I just can't imagine this being a game breaking issue. Some of you have some great forums for it but one thing I disagree with is the statement that it will turn new players to the genre off. The reason I disagree is because if they are new to the genre they obviously haven't played another MMO before and wouldn't know if the others did or didn't have official forums, or what is better, with or without. Ultimately they will end up asking where most people go to find information on the game and people will tell them where they think is best.
It's not a game breaking issue for people who are seasoned MMO veterans or who know about the game in advance of its launch.
Simply put though, if I bought an MMO, or any game (and this has happened to me before) and was having trouble with it and couldn't find an official forum to air my problems to official people, I would probably contact the publisher and ask for a refund then wash my hands of the game. I've done that before and got a full refund. Bet that sucked for the company.
The fact of the matter is, everyone who plays computer games knows that these games have web forums. In reality, the MMO market is relatively saturated with games, so you have companies competing for the same people. And every one of these individuals will expect official forums and find the idea of multiple, unofficial forums to be cumbersome.
It's a simple fact that official forums are a necessary component of games in the information age. The excuses given for not having them on the main site are pathetic. Even small MMO companies have official forums.
At the end of the day, it's about communicating to your customers.
At the end of the day, it's about communicating to your customers.
Mythic forgot it's a two way process.
Its all very well receiving a lot of information, but limiting the ability to give it back by making the process all one way is very shortsighted. Thats feedback history has shown Mjb can not take.
I find your your absolute certainity that WAR is going to bomb a bit frightening... I'm usually prudent enough to give benefit of a doubt to subjects I can't be 100% sure of. I share your dislike of corporate gobbling up of the industry but imo your (pretty much justified) hatred is clouding your perception. We'll see after the release.
i don't think that warhammer will bomb. in fact it is the one game that could topple wow from it's perch. that's my point. a game this big...and important...deserves it's own forum.
I'm not sure I share your optimism but then again.. games are subjective... so who knows.
I could get into a long detailed ramble of blah blah but that's all it would be.
So I'll make a prediction...
If WAR launches this year... most people will become disappointed with it very quickly.
It won't be what they thought it would be.
It won't be what they were shown .. etc etc
Now if its delayed until next year.. all bets are off.
(nope I didn't say it would fail.. be shut down blah blah.. I'm just making a prediction... *.* )
So we got one side that says it will kill WoW and me saying it won't do as well as most would Hope..
Now we need someone to go in between (and yes don't take this overly seriously... just being difficult).
I would like to avoid the personal flames, please leave me out with your bombs and missles. Punts off.
Well Mythic does not provide discussion forums. That was their policy all along. They have a very information game web with DAoC, providing up to date information on realm combat status. Their web are among the pioneers in depicting the exciting RVR on a real time basis. Planetside and now Station.com provides something similar, and they learned from Mythic. From the history of DAoC, I would say Mythic did a very good job using the web.
It is not true that Mythic lack communication with its customers. After years of subscription to DAoC, I would say that on the whole Mythic is the very best developer I have seen in terms of response to clients. The unfortunate Atlanta expansion aside, most of the expansions are reasonably well done. They rolled back on some of the criticized expansions and they put up the classic server. SoE with all the forums, failed to do that. It appears to me that communication with clients is not the same thing as hosting a discussion forum.
It is not true that discussion forums means good information flow. Seriously most of the forum stuffs are pretty much flames. I have learnt not to visit WoW forum, I have learnt not to visit the forums of some of the new games under development or beta. Try darkfall forum, if you want a taste of it. Try ... oh never mind, do not advertise for the "really ugly" forums.
I for one, subsribe to a game, to play and enjoy during the odd hours of my life, when I have to stay home and still not seeking a bed. If the game keeps me exciting and wanting, they got my monthly sub. I am just 1 in a million sub, and I hardly believe that the game need to cater to my taste. If it happen to meet my taste buds, I stay. As someone here says, all I need to know is where the cancel button is.
Why do I need bother about a forum or whatever. Is that vital customer services from a game producer, not in my view, no. If I need a forum, this one, MMORPG.com, will serve. If the game is good I will be playing. If I need to communicate with other users, I can log in and talk over the channels. That is where it matters, people inside the game. Shouting nuts over a forum is much less desirable. If I want to talk to the producers, I have the support team to email to. Anything else are bells and whistles, and are not likely to dictate my decisions to subscribe.
Make me a game I like and I will pay. If I hate the game I will move on. Forum or no forum, its no big deal for me.
Official forums tied to an account are a must. If they don't give us that, we will have to live with it but it's a shortage and speaks poorly of Mythic.
Comments
I had a couple of reasons stating that date.
1) Can you honestly expect the player support to be on-top even after about 7 years after release?
2) Many years of age on a game without an official forum... hmmm! How could they have done it? :O
While your previous comment made me chuckle, this one made me laugh. You try to push it even further
Stating a very bland sentence like the one I colored green.
And he didn't HAVE to come here and complain ROFL. His intention behind the entire post was to vent his dissapointment with the makers. Why would he vent to them even further on that matter after already obviously having enough with them? Couldn't that be a reason why he came here instead?
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
You expect ANY company to be completely 100% complaint free? You make the lamest attempt to try and proof a point I've seen to date on theese forums and yet support it with even more weird comments like "mythic does know what they are doing" - to delete all complaints?
Go ahead and bring me more of this and I will get me some pop-corn while waiting
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
The whole argument your trying to make about the ingame csr being great isnt a valid in my opinion because outside of the game customer support via a forum is the point of the argument not being pm'd by a gm ingame.
(and i use to be one for a while at blizz and i can hardly spell go me)
There is no exscuse for lack of customer support in this day and age you can keep burrying your head in sand you dont even make any good argument all you do is post retarded comments to try and peeve people off. @ durahell.
I had a couple of reasons stating that date.
1) Can you honestly expect the player support to be on-top even after about 7 years after release?
so if the game runs for a few years its a good excuse to ignore the people who write your checks?
2) Many years of age on a game without an official forum... hmmm! How could they have done it? :O
a game with a much smaller playerbase than this one will.
While your previous comment made me chuckle, this one made me laugh. You try to push it even further
Stating a very bland sentence like the one I colored green.
And he didn't HAVE to come here and complain ROFL. His intention behind the entire post was to vent his dissapointment with the makers. Why would he vent to them even further on that matter after already obviously having enough with them? Couldn't that be a reason why he came here instead?
he came here instead of where? a fansite that would say "cry more noob!"?
http://www.soesucks.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=10
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
(1) But I didn't say IGNORE did I? I said just as good. And especially now with a new game of theirs coming up. And I did see happy people even in the thread you linked.
(2) However that will be an issue time will tell. But maby it won't even get that much of a bigger audience?
(3) I dunno, are you gonna link me an example by any chance? Cus I could link you millions of OFFICIAL thread posts which does the same
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
(1) But I didn't say IGNORE did I? I said just as good. And especially now with a new game of theirs coming up. And I did see happy people even in the thread you linked.
(2) However that will be an issue time will tell. But maby it won't even get that much of a bigger audience?
(3) I dunno, are you gonna link me an example by any chance? Cus I could link you millions of OFFICIAL thread posts which does the same
go for it.
http://www.soesucks.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=10
go for it.
Oh my... for real? I really hope somebody here is reading all of this, and having great fun while doing it
I really don't feel I should need to do this, because it's so obviously ... obvious, but if you insist? Really? I will update this post with some findings. Unless somebody comes to my rescue so I won't have to >_<
Ok... here's some random findings... :
WoW forums:
link...
link...
link...
link...
EQ2 forums:
link...
Ok enough in goin back to watching TV
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
go for it.
Oh my... for real? I really hope somebody here is reading all of this, and having great fun while doing it
I really don't feel I should need to do this, because it's so obviously ... obvious, but if you insist? Really? I will update this post with some findings. Unless somebody comes to my rescue so I won't have to >_<
Please do, lets keep this thread going. It's been entertaining so far...
i'd like at least some server forums so that community can comminicate w/ each other and the other side
Most of the fan sites are going to do server forums, at least warhammeralliance and warhammerconflict are.
Attention guys and girls;
There's nothing wrong with a good long discussion, but watch the personal attacks, yeah? If you've got something to say, try and say it without calling the other person a fanboy or a troll or whatnot. If somebody crosses the line, don't attack them back; Two people having it out on the forums rarely results in anything productive. Finally, if you have issues with somebody's opinions, attack those opinions, not the person who supports them. As my grandfather once said, an argument must stand or fall on its own merits.
Have a good discussion, but keep it clean.
I haven't paid much attention to Mythic since quitting DAoC years ago. I've read bits and pieces about their CS at various forums over the years since then, some positive, some not, just like any other game.
Thing is, I don't care that Marc Jacobs supposedly settled this issue of official forums years ago. Brad McQuaid did the same thing at Sigil, and for much the same reasons as what Jacobs cites. We saw how well that went for VG, and as soon as the game was no longer Sigil's, SOE had complete official forums up for the game.
The MMO market now isn't the same as it was when DAoC was released. Millions of players have since entered the genre, and there are a multitude of games to choose from. And as Brad McQuaid learned the hard way, there is only a very, very narrow window to make an impression on people because they've got so many choices. Because of that, people will look at a variety of things-- gameplay, graphics, the fan community, and even customer service. If they find any of these lacking, even in the first month, they're largely inclined to cancel their sub and go back to whatever they were playing before.
The days of toughing it out in a game world for months, or even years because there wasn't anything else to play are over. Ergo, game companies have to launch with their A game, including forums to give their potential players the impression that they're proud of their game, and that they welcome both positive and negative feedback on their official site, and at the developer's expense. It's a part of the package that shows that they're serious about competing in the market, and that they want to offer in-depth service for people.
I know people like to point at the current system that Mythic has, but the fact is, that system is old, and based on outdated ideas. It might have worked when DAoC was one of a handful of games around, but now, with so many other games to pick from, I'm not so sure it's viable anymore. Things have changed too dramatically in the market that I really don't see how they'll be competitive without a forum.
Pfff what a mess.
Anyway, I can give another example of why I prefer official forums.
Whenever there's problems logging in or something drops the first place i go is the wow support forums to see if anyone else is having the same issues since it's a centralized place for cryouts if there's something wrong with more than just me it'll be there within a matter of seconds.
This was very useful for me to be able to update our IRC channel topic on new issues right away. Without official forums, this'll be more difficult for me and mostly, will not be known until Mythic decides to tell me that there is something wrong.
This is also because of another reason. I'm an EU player. However I mostly frequent the VNboards, and sometimes here but not usually after a game gets released.
The VN boards however are mostly used by US players, not EU. I don't care for following some random new spawned EU forum just to be able to get info on EU tech problems or whatever as it happens. I would much prefer official forums for this.
That said, I also simply feel it's an extra service that should be provided for the people that actually like using them, and personally feel like it seems they are chosing not to have them out of selfish reasons rather than looking at it from a customer point of view. The cost argument in my opinion is ridiculous, the costs involved with running a forum with a small staff are negligeable at best compared to the rest of the operating costs.
My opinion (as I thought this thread could use just one or two more) is that official forums are needed as a pseudo check and balance. Yes, I completely agree that forums official or non are dramafests with conspiracies, e-feelings and complete oversue of the words noob, fanboi and
. It goes both ways. But as I too have played quite a few mmo's in my time on this mudball and in my experience, official forums are a necessary evil.
1. They allow for a single meeting point to gather information or to find other communities on the same subject. Every single mmo I have ever played on that had multiple servers had a forum that related to information specific to that server. It was a place to learn about each other when not in game or to read about events (nonguild related) while afk. Was it necessary to enjoy the game? Nope. But it enhanced the experience and the feeling of belonging to a community.
This can be done unoffcially as well but then - who is considere the true source of this knowledge? Who do you turn to? Even at best, this will still divide the knowledge and information to multiple locations thus losing its effectiveness to to lost percentages of viewers or the lost time that it takes to gather all of the pieces of it together to get the true picture.
2. Official forums hold the company accountable. Here is why - when people post in mass about issues on official boards - they are more likely to be addressed. It become a pimple on their public face. True you could use the email addresses or the phone lines but that allows the battle to be minimalized into an individual cause. One on one - the communities needs will be minimalized. Which is more effective - a glaring 20 page thread about an issue or Bob, the tech support guy telling his boss - "Yeah I had a few calls about this one issue."
And more importantly - it provides an out for a company. Since the forums are unofficial and numerous - the devs and staff are not responsible for anything posted there and are under no obligation to read them. "Got issues? How are we supposed to know? We do not actively read this forum..."
Now as time constricts me from writing much more - I understand those of you who have played under these conditions before - have no issue with the lack of an official forum. You are commited to the game and in all - your opinions and likes and dislikes are yours and thus nothing allows me to criticize you for them. I would be the equivalent of me arguing with you about your favorite food.
However, as someone who is actively seeking an mmo that I can commit myself to and someone who has seen the gambit and been burned a few times - the reasons given behind not housing an official forums have me concerned enough to even post in this thread. The game looks interesting enough and I hope it does give WoW a run for its money. Competition makes things better for all of us but I digress you aren't reading this to hear me talk about that.
In summary, official forums are a necessary evil for consolidated and timely information. Yes google is quick but try looking for antarian rangers sometime on the web. You may lose about 1/2 an houror more weeding through the deadwood and spam sites to get the details that you are looking for.
Will the game function without one? Yepper. Will the hardcore fans still play it? You bet! But when going for WoW like numbers - a company must be willing to accomodate a little bit of everything for everyone. But isolating certain types of players - there is one more obstacle in your path to try and take the king down.
Excellent post Kefkah.
Would just like to add that non official forums also have their place. I use the EJ forums much more often than the official forums for WoW, so there is a place for both. But your second point about accountability is very important for me.
Ways to solve 'accountability' on official forums....Overzealous and almost alll official forums have 2 or 3...Modarators Delete any and all threads of negative remarks whether its enlightening dev's to bugs, exploits, or general distaste for new mechanics before dev's see it and their feelings are 'crushed'.
This happens on unofficial forums sometimes too but its far more likely your voice will be heard and remain in place for Dev's to actually see it ... probably not feel crushed since usually the general over all reaction to such posts on unofficial forums is more mature. I usually hate using the word mature immature etc etc but its usually far more likely that mature and more well groomed people show up on the unofficial forums since it requires time and effort to find a good forum. (really hates using that word since everyone has bad days and occasionally makes an ass of themselves).
And who the hell uses the wow forums for actual information? Everyone knows the best information for In Game stuff is THottBot. WoW's forums are usually "Waah my class is nerf..or Waah x class is over powered or Waahh The Burning Crusade doesn't work right on my computer or ...WoW broke my Mods etc etc. And those are just the ones that aren't instantily deleted by Mods.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
I don't think it would hurt to have it around but I just can't imagine this being a game breaking issue. Some of you have some great forums for it but one thing I disagree with is the statement that it will turn new players to the genre off. The reason I disagree is because if they are new to the genre they obviously haven't played another MMO before and wouldn't know if the others did or didn't have official forums, or what is better, with or without. Ultimately they will end up asking where most people go to find information on the game and people will tell them where they think is best.
go for it.
Oh my... for real? I really hope somebody here is reading all of this, and having great fun while doing it
I really don't feel I should need to do this, because it's so obviously ... obvious, but if you insist? Really? I will update this post with some findings. Unless somebody comes to my rescue so I won't have to >_<
Ok... here's some random findings... :
WoW forums:
link...
link...
link...
link...
EQ2 forums:
link...
Ok enough in goin back to watching TV
OMG of course you can find links to games run by companies that allow discussion on their dime. can't do the same for doac though can you? that was the whole point.
http://www.soesucks.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=10
go for it.
Oh my... for real? I really hope somebody here is reading all of this, and having great fun while doing it
I really don't feel I should need to do this, because it's so obviously ... obvious, but if you insist? Really? I will update this post with some findings. Unless somebody comes to my rescue so I won't have to >_<
Ok... here's some random findings... :
WoW forums:
link...
link...
link...
link...
EQ2 forums:
link...
Ok enough in goin back to watching TV
OMG of course you can find links to games run by companies that allow discussion on their dime. can't do the same for doac though can you? that was the whole point.
Wow well next time instead of saying "go for it" as in you want him to find threads on OFFICIAL forums where people say "go cry nub!" or w/e you stated previously, tell him you want to see that on DAoC...lol. He did exactly what you challenged him to do.
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A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
It's not a game breaking issue for people who are seasoned MMO veterans or who know about the game in advance of its launch.
Simply put though, if I bought an MMO, or any game (and this has happened to me before) and was having trouble with it and couldn't find an official forum to air my problems to official people, I would probably contact the publisher and ask for a refund then wash my hands of the game. I've done that before and got a full refund. Bet that sucked for the company.
The fact of the matter is, everyone who plays computer games knows that these games have web forums. In reality, the MMO market is relatively saturated with games, so you have companies competing for the same people. And every one of these individuals will expect official forums and find the idea of multiple, unofficial forums to be cumbersome.
It's a simple fact that official forums are a necessary component of games in the information age. The excuses given for not having them on the main site are pathetic. Even small MMO companies have official forums.
At the end of the day, it's about communicating to your customers.
Its all very well receiving a lot of information, but limiting the ability to give it back by making the process all one way is very shortsighted. Thats feedback history has shown Mjb can not take.
i don't think that warhammer will bomb. in fact it is the one game that could topple wow from it's perch. that's my point. a game this big...and important...deserves it's own forum.
I'm not sure I share your optimism but then again.. games are subjective... so who knows.
I could get into a long detailed ramble of blah blah but that's all it would be.
So I'll make a prediction...
If WAR launches this year... most people will become disappointed with it very quickly.
It won't be what they thought it would be.
It won't be what they were shown .. etc etc
Now if its delayed until next year.. all bets are off.
(nope I didn't say it would fail.. be shut down blah blah.. I'm just making a prediction... *.* )
So we got one side that says it will kill WoW and me saying it won't do as well as most would Hope..
Now we need someone to go in between (and yes don't take this overly seriously... just being difficult).
I would like to avoid the personal flames, please leave me out with your bombs and missles. Punts off.
Well Mythic does not provide discussion forums. That was their policy all along. They have a very information game web with DAoC, providing up to date information on realm combat status. Their web are among the pioneers in depicting the exciting RVR on a real time basis. Planetside and now Station.com provides something similar, and they learned from Mythic. From the history of DAoC, I would say Mythic did a very good job using the web.
It is not true that Mythic lack communication with its customers. After years of subscription to DAoC, I would say that on the whole Mythic is the very best developer I have seen in terms of response to clients. The unfortunate Atlanta expansion aside, most of the expansions are reasonably well done. They rolled back on some of the criticized expansions and they put up the classic server. SoE with all the forums, failed to do that. It appears to me that communication with clients is not the same thing as hosting a discussion forum.
It is not true that discussion forums means good information flow. Seriously most of the forum stuffs are pretty much flames. I have learnt not to visit WoW forum, I have learnt not to visit the forums of some of the new games under development or beta. Try darkfall forum, if you want a taste of it. Try ... oh never mind, do not advertise for the "really ugly" forums.
I for one, subsribe to a game, to play and enjoy during the odd hours of my life, when I have to stay home and still not seeking a bed. If the game keeps me exciting and wanting, they got my monthly sub. I am just 1 in a million sub, and I hardly believe that the game need to cater to my taste. If it happen to meet my taste buds, I stay. As someone here says, all I need to know is where the cancel button is.
Why do I need bother about a forum or whatever. Is that vital customer services from a game producer, not in my view, no. If I need a forum, this one, MMORPG.com, will serve. If the game is good I will be playing. If I need to communicate with other users, I can log in and talk over the channels. That is where it matters, people inside the game. Shouting nuts over a forum is much less desirable. If I want to talk to the producers, I have the support team to email to. Anything else are bells and whistles, and are not likely to dictate my decisions to subscribe.
Make me a game I like and I will pay. If I hate the game I will move on. Forum or no forum, its no big deal for me.
Official forums tied to an account are a must. If they don't give us that, we will have to live with it but it's a shortage and speaks poorly of Mythic.