As I said I see a great opportunity missed to make something awesome, that could make everyone happy, playable as only pve, or pve-pvp, or only pvp (yes only pvp is possible, i.ex in shaiya you get xp when killing player opponents and you also have quests and dungeons on the pvp maps; in the pve you even have quests that send you killing pvp opponents ). But that's of course my opinion.
I think when people state that the lore wouldn't support it, it's more a response to the idea of open world PvP. In that case, people are correct.
Honestly, I think with PvP it boils down to a decision - do they want it to have PvP, or not. And if so, how much? In Turbine's case, they decided early on that PvP would not be an inherent part of the main gameplay. And so it isn't.
At first, as I recall, LoTRO was not to have PvP at all. That simply is not the kind of game they are/were seeking to create. Then later, I suppose in response to enough people showing interest, they had to make a decision... Could they implement PvP in a non-invasive way that would provide those players the competitive gameplay they sought, without up-ending or fundamentally changing the core gameplay in the process?
I believe PvMP as their solution was quite brilliant.PvMP is implemented as a 100% optional side activity. You can PvP without affecting at all the flow of things in the main PvE game. Freeps can bring their characters in at will, still playing as the "good guys". Creeps can do their thing, and it all happens in a way that does not bleed over into the PvE content, the main game. It's separate enough that no matter how hostile things get in the 'moors - or any new PvMP areas they add later - once a player has had their fill and leaves that PvP enabled area, they are back to the key PvE experience Turbine is most focused on.
Turbine are clearly being ever-so-careful to not screw with the core gameplay in LoTRO, while still trying to meet the players half-way where they can; and to their credit.
In closing, I think it's best when a MMO dev focuses most on one or the other and doesn't try to please all sides. More times than not, trying to please everyone equally in a MMO fails, because it's seldom ever "good enough" for either side.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I was just saying, while we have no say in the game development, we still might find it interesting to ask hypothetically, what might be fun to add to the current gameplay. Sure, Turbine or Tolkine need not listen, most likely they won't. But as an intellectual exercise, it might be fun discussing options and possibilities.
While I don't mean to offend your seeking intellectual discourse on what could be with the LoTRO, I fear those types of conversations, because with the last two MMO's I played that is how the initiation of change begins. Before you know it, some new crack team of designers come in, coupled with their own ideas of how the game should progress, and then choose to read a few forums (to "gauge" what the customers want), and bam it is something totally different from the original view.
Everquest is now morphed into some half thought up set of ideas that have no lore or direction as it began. Each expansion corrupted the game a little more, then after SOE took over they kept shifting designers around so that you couldn't get a congruent story line if you tried. And talk to dedication Warcraft players, the same has happened to it, the lore is totally abandoned from the original story lines.
I am happy with the state of the game now, I love the lore, and I love the innovations that Turbine places into the game. I fear that if a new crack team comes in before you know it we will have a space ship crash land into middle earth and demons will come forth in an invasion straight out of hell and the lorekeepers will accidently open a rift in the space time continuem that will open a land of never dreamed beings that wreak havoc and darkness upon the land. Ya, talking about what could be scares me to be frank. But feel free, you have the right to say any input you feel, just expect me to give mine in return.
I come here to talk about mmos and be entertained by the range of relies. You have a history of long replies pointing out flaws in others posts. That seems to be your enjoyment here. Which is great, makes for a good read. However I think most of the people who post here are pretty smart and can see flaws, sarcasm, humor, trolling, etc, etc, etc. on their own. If you decide to reply could you use red for your relies rather the light blue. Red will make it seem more exciting!
I wouldn't say I "failed" to get your point, or catch your sarcasm. I'd say you failed pretty thoroughly to convey either.
There is absolutely nothing in your post that I quoted or responded to that indicates anything you are claiming it does. There's no use of quotes, or obvious exaggeration or anything of the sort to indicate anything you say in your post is at all sarcastic or facetious. Not even a follow-up like "See what I did there?", or (/sarcasm off).
I'm sure you realize that in text, the tone or intent of a statement, including sarcasm, is easily lost without any such qualifier.
Had you done more to make your intended tone more obvious, not I nor likely anyone else would have missed it.
For the record, yes, I do tend to call people out for what they say in their posts (or on what they say in real life). Not so much out of "enjoyment" though. I loathe intellectual dishonesty, blatant/blind bias and spin-doctoring (little wonder I stopped listening to politicians or taking them seriously).
I did get the condescension and sarcasm in your "you should use red" statement. Unfortunately, it was a pretty weak attempt.
Ummm the "red" comment was not sarcasm. I meant it. Red stands out more that is all. Not everything has deep dark meanings. You certianly pointed that out about my writing style in this post.
What I did was try to express my feelings about the OPs claims on WoW it's fan base and LOTRO. It was also filled with gross generalizations. I tried to present the idea in a similar way as the OP because I found it a bit of a put down to WoW players. Successful or not I stand by all my opinions on both LOTRO and WoW. However, this was not a deep ironic poke at the OP. I was not trying to express a wildly intellectual attack on the OP. If you read other of my posts I rarely do that. I am not that smart, I just like to talk about mmos. I try to do that in a variety of ways. I am a little suprised someone who writes as well as you do took my posts here so seriously. I am not a writer by profession I just like to try to express myself in a variety of ways on these forums. I am an artist by profession. I for one do not ever call people "out" I just do not feel the need. We all express ourselves in the way we seem fit. Who am I to tell people they are wrong or my way is better. One good thing with that approach to life (and mmos) is it makes for a more stress free life. Most just read the posts agree or disagree and move on, since everything here is "opinion".
As I said I see a great opportunity missed to make something awesome, that could make everyone happy, playable as only pve, or pve-pvp, or only pvp (yes only pvp is possible, i.ex in shaiya you get xp when killing player opponents and you also have quests and dungeons on the pvp maps; in the pve you even have quests that send you killing pvp opponents ). But that's of course my opinion.
I think when people state that the lore wouldn't support it, it's more a response to the idea of open world PvP. In that case, people are correct.
Honestly, I think with PvP it boils down to a decision - do they want it to have PvP, or not. And if so, how much? In Turbine's case, they decided early on that PvP would not be an inherent part of the main gameplay. And so it isn't.
At first, as I recall, LoTRO was not to have PvP at all. That simply is not the kind of game they are/were seeking to create. Then later, I suppose in response to enough people showing interest, they had to make a decision... Could they implement PvP in a non-invasive way that would provide those players the competitive gameplay they sought, without up-ending or fundamentally changing the core gameplay in the process?
I believe PvMP as their solution was quite brilliant.PvMP is implemented as a 100% optional side activity. You can PvP without affecting at all the flow of things in the main PvE game. Freeps can bring their characters in at will, still playing as the "good guys". Creeps can do their thing, and it all happens in a way that does not bleed over into the PvE content, the main game. It's separate enough that no matter how hostile things get in the 'moors - or any new PvMP areas they add later - once a player has had their fill and leaves that PvP enabled area, they are back to the key PvE experience Turbine is most focused on.
Turbine are clearly being ever-so-careful to not screw with the core gameplay in LoTRO, while still trying to meet the players half-way where they can; and to their credit.
In closing, I think it's best when a MMO dev focuses most on one or the other and doesn't try to please all sides. More times than not, trying to please everyone equally in a MMO fails, because it's seldom ever "good enough" for either side.
Absolutely spot on commentary, especially concerning "pleasing all of the people all of the time". Quite simply, you can't and Turbine's approach is the ONLY approach. If we look at other games that have diametrically changed themselves to cater to a certain demographic while ignoring or marginalising the original demographic, they usually end up with neither. LotrO has done a very good job of catering to everyone while making sure that one type of play does not directly interfere with another.
So whats the verdict exactly on LOTR? Since i quit WoW (due to the fact that if i left my account active i would play the game way too much and be too pressured to raid/arena when I had work to do--it had nothing to do with the game itself) I've been looking for a new MMO that I could play casually and pressure free, since I'd essentially just be playing on my own and for myself, not with friends.
I tried EQ2 for almost a month, and quit that because I really couldn't get myself past level 30 due to the terrible organization of questing hubs, itemization (there was one new starting quest area that basically gave you gear that you were forced to use until level 40 because Sony didn't bother balancing the rest of the questing gear), and the fact that the dungeons weren't really instanced, which was something i really liked about WoW, not having to fight other groups for boss spawns.
EQ2 was also crappy in that there was virtually no pvp but i've kind of come to terms with the fact that WoW or maybe Guild Wars will be the only games that focus and do well with PvP until Warhammer comes out.
So how is LOTR compared to other MMOs? The graphics look amazing and gameplay looks pretty easy to grasp. Are the quests pretty organized and soloable (as in you don't log in for 2 hours and spend the entire time trying to figure out where one or two quests are, or trying to find a group)? Is the game interesting enough outside of grinding to keep you immersed and able to keep playing? Are there generally a lot of dungeons as you level, if you wanted to play in a group for a while?
So whats the verdict exactly on LOTR? Since i quit WoW (due to the fact that if i left my account active i would play the game way too much and be too pressured to raid/arena when I had work to do--it had nothing to do with the game itself) I've been looking for a new MMO that I could play casually and pressure free, since I'd essentially just be playing on my own and for myself, not with friends. I tried EQ2 for almost a month, and quit that because I really couldn't get myself past level 30 due to the terrible organization of questing hubs, itemization (there was one new starting quest area that basically gave you gear that you were forced to use until level 40 because Sony didn't bother balancing the rest of the questing gear), and the fact that the dungeons weren't really instanced, which was something i really liked about WoW, not having to fight other groups for boss spawns. EQ2 was also crappy in that there was virtually no pvp but i've kind of come to terms with the fact that WoW or maybe Guild Wars will be the only games that focus and do well with PvP until Warhammer comes out. So how is LOTR compared to other MMOs? The graphics look amazing and gameplay looks pretty easy to grasp. Are the quests pretty organized and soloable (as in you don't log in for 2 hours and spend the entire time trying to figure out where one or two quests are, or trying to find a group)? Is the game interesting enough outside of grinding to keep you immersed and able to keep playing? Are there generally a lot of dungeons as you level, if you wanted to play in a group for a while?
yes, LOTRO is very casual friendly. It sounds like it would be right up your ally.
~~~ Currently Playing ~~~ LOTRO- Guardian Wrymstrum & Lore-master Stabler on Nimrodel.
Conan- Zoltar <Angels of Death> Guardian on Stormrage.
I think its almost consensus among many of us that LOTRo is worth trying, esp the free trial. The game is great during the tutorial where you have a story related to the RING lore. Once outside the tutorial, you can feel at home with the lore, as the home world is very sweetly done. Try the hobbits for the very beautiful home town, and the music, can't express it in words, you got to listen to it.
Will you like it? Lets look at your own list of "sort after"s
1. Are the quests well done? Yes, lots of quests, from kill X, to fancy pie delivery (and its really not too easy), to huge epic long quests, lots of variants, lots of quests. You generally have enough quests to level to 50, if you do not want to grind.
2. The game is totally soloable. I soloed 2 alts to max. Of course, if you are totally new, you will need to spent some time knowing where misty mountain is, unless you know it from LOTR books already. Mob-wise yes you can solo. Quest-wise yes they are soloable.
3. Is it interesting, yes for me, for a long while. Grinding is possible, and not necessary. The scenery is great and immersion too. The community is among the best.
4. Dungeons and quests for groups yes, lots. For quests you already finished, you can repeat it so long as one member of your group still has it.
The good thing about LOTRo, even among those of us who have left the game one way or another, we all find the game very attractive, and few were vocal about any particular weakness of the game.
I come here to talk about mmos and be entertained by the range of relies. You have a history of long replies pointing out flaws in others posts. That seems to be your enjoyment here. Which is great, makes for a good read. However I think most of the people who post here are pretty smart and can see flaws, sarcasm, humor, trolling, etc, etc, etc. on their own. If you decide to reply could you use red for your relies rather the light blue. Red will make it seem more exciting!
I wouldn't say I "failed" to get your point, or catch your sarcasm. I'd say you failed pretty thoroughly to convey either.
There is absolutely nothing in your post that I quoted or responded to that indicates anything you are claiming it does. There's no use of quotes, or obvious exaggeration or anything of the sort to indicate anything you say in your post is at all sarcastic or facetious. Not even a follow-up like "See what I did there?", or (/sarcasm off).
I'm sure you realize that in text, the tone or intent of a statement, including sarcasm, is easily lost without any such qualifier.
Had you done more to make your intended tone more obvious, not I nor likely anyone else would have missed it.
For the record, yes, I do tend to call people out for what they say in their posts (or on what they say in real life). Not so much out of "enjoyment" though. I loathe intellectual dishonesty, blatant/blind bias and spin-doctoring (little wonder I stopped listening to politicians or taking them seriously).
I did get the condescension and sarcasm in your "you should use red" statement. Unfortunately, it was a pretty weak attempt.
Ummm the "red" comment was not sarcasm. I meant it. Red stands out more that is all. Not everything has deep dark meanings. You certianly pointed that out about my writing style in this post.
What I did was try to express my feelings about the OPs claims on WoW it's fan base and LOTRO. It was also filled with gross generalizations. I tried to present the idea in a similar way as the OP because I found it a bit of a put down to WoW players. Successful or not I stand by all my opinions on both LOTRO and WoW. However, this was not a deep ironic poke at the OP. I was not trying to express a wildly intellectual attack on the OP. If you read other of my posts I rarely do that. I am not that smart, I just like to talk about mmos. I try to do that in a variety of ways. I am a little suprised someone who writes as well as you do took my posts here so seriously. I am not a writer by profession I just like to try to express myself in a variety of ways on these forums. I am an artist by profession. I for one do not ever call people "out" I just do not feel the need. We all express ourselves in the way we seem fit. Who am I to tell people they are wrong or my way is better. One good thing with that approach to life (and mmos) is it makes for a more stress free life. Most just read the posts agree or disagree and move on, since everything here is "opinion".
Well, going forward, I certainly have a better idea of how to read your posts. For the one in question, I could only go by what was in "white and black" in front of me. There was nothing giving any indication of whether it was serious, tongue-in-cheek or otherwise. So I took it as it read, to me.
That said, I don't really tend to maintain a running profile on most posters here; there are very few whose posts I "stand out" in terms of tone simply because of a loooong post history to go by. Overall, I tend to respond on a post-by-post basis. You'll see sometimes I'm 100% in agreement with someone in one post, then 100% opposed in the next.
In any case.. no harm done and no hard feelings .
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
i ve just started lord of the rings , its a game i was always interested in but essentially i only play one pay to play mmo at a time . i d got to the point where i was bored with warcraft and i personally think both conan and warhammer will see further delays ( inspite of conan still having a may release) so this seamed like the perfect filler . i m suprised how good it actually is so i may end up staying here longer than i anticipated after all theres bound to be issues that need ironing out when conan and warhammer are eventually released so it might be wise to leave it a few months before playing them . anyway if your fed up with your mmo and fancy trying something new you could do a hell of a lot worse than lord of the rings . its very accessable and the communitys friendly .
EQ2 I hear is a good game, I just dont like WOW. WOW sucks, and I REALLY didnt mean for this thread to get this big but I Assume since rants, complaints and insults are the center of what a forum is about, then It leaves an unpleasant taste in my mouth too see how some of you have responded. Openly Expected though. so listen to my opinion.
As far as EQ2, yea, good game, vast, exceptionally sound mechanics, but it started off buggy and had to pump out everything it could to make it not so cruddy. First impression is everything in the mind of impatient youngins and mmo veterans. and to me eq2 even with all the updates still falls slightly short of this game, its ceiling I would say is much lower, and insignificant considering Lord of the rings online has a better story, is better developed, more polished, and has update after update and an expansion coming soon and for the most part, the company turbine listens to their customers. the ceiling is obviously higher, the potential is obviously greater, and last i checked it was the #1 mmo rated on here, so whose talking? i mean guild wars for god sakes is on the list, thats not even an mmo, thats like a mo, multiplayer online role playing game, but it definitely gives you that 'i wont really get to know anyone' feeling at times.
think about how crappy that top rated list is? ive played all those games, city of vilains people get all excited because you can wear a cape and fly....thats not anything new, thats what the game is about, itsnot new mechanics, you buy a game because your interested in its content, as far as innovation, the only thing games like wow did was what lotro did, polish things up, and make it more user friendly, so what draws us in(even if your unlikely to admit it)......is the subject of the game.
For those that think LOtro is boring, then you must not play mmos because this game does not attempt to break any barriers, it only simply improves upon the original formula, so well in fact that i believe this was the cleanest release EVER, and if you like ROLE PLAYING GAMES, and playing with a MASSIVE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE, then this is what you want. no mmo has broken any barriers, fighting mechanics have stayed the same, and in recent memory mmos have become cookie cutter games for the mass audience rather than catering to the experienced more hardcore crowd.
as far as this game and mmos go, nothing is new, just same old rehash after rehash, oh my gosh! class specific player vs player! oh my gosh, new raid boss! holy crap! we can control WHERE WE HIT? for god sakes, what are we even getting excited about?!?!? something that should have been routinely implemented in EVERY mmo. Even AoC, and WAR are the same formula, so what draws people in?
Lore, races, classes, concept, reviews, opinions, forums such as these, but is there any innovation in the collect and kill , n collect and raid .....no...nothing new....same ol shii
think of the reason you bought final fantasy after final fantasy? HOLY crap a new limit break system?!?! you bought it for the story, for the character development, for the monsters you would face, for the encounters that would be difficult. the coolness of telling your buds that you took down the ruby weapon....you bought it even though they were all basically the same format.
saying games like lotro copied wow is like saying half life copied the original doom.
im drawn into lotro because i like mmos as a whole, andi could pick up any mmo and enjoy it, but i enjoy this one the most because i like polished games that get everyting jus right. races and classes, its lore, its monsters, and i like the current way mmos play combat wise so i dont rant about the system, what i rant about is the lack of playability, something that games like vangaurd and fury had me going crazy over.
now will i get warhammer? probably
will i get aoc? probably
but are they really offering me anything significantly new besides a diffrent setting and maybe a few diffrent ways of competing against one another? Definitely not anything revolutionary, just a diffrent scenery that garners my interest and the atmosphere of a game is what draws me in, and if aoc or warhammer cant do that then im stickin to my guns, and thats this game.
REAL TALK.
trust that im open to everyones opinion, so dont be offended by mine, but this the reality of the gaming industry, put out what works, so you just have to find your niche, and wait for that next developer to break the mold
EQ2 I hear is a good game, I just dont like WOW. WOW sucks, and I REALLY didnt mean for this thread to get this big but I Assume since rants, complaints and insults are the center of what a forum is about, then It leaves an unpleasant taste in my mouth too see how some of you have responded. Openly Expected though. so listen to my opinion. As far as EQ2, yea, good game, vast, exceptionally sound mechanics, but it started off buggy and had to pump out everything it could to make it not so cruddy. First impression is everything in the mind of impatient youngins and mmo veterans. and to me eq2 even with all the updates still falls slightly short of this game, its ceiling I would say is much lower, and insignificant considering Lord of the rings online has a better story, is better developed, more polished, and has update after update and an expansion coming soon and for the most part, the company turbine listens to their customers. the ceiling is obviously higher, the potential is obviously greater, and last i checked it was the #1 mmo rated on here, so whose talking? i mean guild wars for god sakes is on the list, thats not even an mmo, thats like a mo, multiplayer online role playing game, but it definitely gives you that 'i wont really get to know anyone' feeling at times. think about how crappy that top rated list is? ive played all those games, city of vilains people get all excited because you can wear a cape and fly....thats not anything new, thats what the game is about, itsnot new mechanics, you buy a game because your interested in its content, as far as innovation, the only thing games like wow did was what lotro did, polish things up, and make it more user friendly, so what draws us in(even if your unlikely to admit it)......is the subject of the game. For those that think LOtro is boring, then you must not play mmos because this game does not attempt to break any barriers, it only simply improves upon the original formula, so well in fact that i believe this was the cleanest release EVER, and if you like ROLE PLAYING GAMES, and playing with a MASSIVE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE, then this is what you want. no mmo has broken any barriers, fighting mechanics have stayed the same, and in recent memory mmos have become cookie cutter games for the mass audience rather than catering to the experienced more hardcore crowd. as far as this game and mmos go, nothing is new, just same old rehash after rehash, oh my gosh! class specific player vs player! oh my gosh, new raid boss! holy crap! we can control WHERE WE HIT? for god sakes, what are we even getting excited about?!?!? something that should have been routinely implemented in EVERY mmo. Even AoC, and WAR are the same formula, so what draws people in? Lore, races, classes, concept, reviews, opinions, forums such as these, but is there any innovation in the collect and kill , n collect and raid .....no...nothing new....same ol shii think of the reason you bought final fantasy after final fantasy? HOLY crap a new limit break system?!?! you bought it for the story, for the character development, for the monsters you would face, for the encounters that would be difficult. the coolness of telling your buds that you took down the ruby weapon....you bought it even though they were all basically the same format. saying games like lotro copied wow is like saying half life copied the original doom. im drawn into lotro because i like mmos as a whole, andi could pick up any mmo and enjoy it, but i enjoy this one the most because i like polished games that get everyting jus right. races and classes, its lore, its monsters, and i like the current way mmos play combat wise so i dont rant about the system, what i rant about is the lack of playability, something that games like vangaurd and fury had me going crazy over.
now will i get warhammer? probably will i get aoc? probably but are they really offering me anything significantly new besides a diffrent setting and maybe a few diffrent ways of competing against one another? Definitely not anything revolutionary, just a diffrent scenery that garners my interest and the atmosphere of a game is what draws me in, and if aoc or warhammer cant do that then im stickin to my guns, and thats this game. REAL TALK. trust that im open to everyones opinion, so dont be offended by mine, but this the reality of the gaming industry, put out what works, so you just have to find your niche, and wait for that next developer to break the mold
This is a very good post. It goes to show people do have different opinions. I guess you always have to be careful calling certain players out is all (I keep getting told that because of the fervent approach I have toward my dislike of LOTRO) and the beginning of YOUR post did the same...call out the WoW'ers, and you will get a war..
I do want to note that I think you may be wrong on AoC though. As this game may be the first to "revolutionize" the MMO, by allowing some features not available and never tried in MMO's
Drunken Brawling
Real time combat
Spell weaving
Single player tutorial
More mature material (kinda like M&M's with an extra M...YUM)
I know the naysayers say it is not ready...but lately...how many games are...even LOTRO crashed once opening day...and needed a big ole patch...
I personally think AoC is taking all the right steps,,,and as well, no Elves, Orcs, etc...which also helps...WAR still sounds like WoW/DAoc combined...so it is not taking many risks...AoC is a BIG risk
But, I though Tabula Rasa had it right when they started, and then they released the "miracle patch" which made it like every other game out now...
Lets hope something comes down the line that will be a hit like WoW...I may not play WoW, but they certainly did things right, and my year in that game was some of the best times...
EQ2 I hear is a good game, I just dont like WOW. WOW sucks, and I REALLY didnt mean for this thread to get this big but I Assume since rants, complaints and insults are the center of what a forum is about, then It leaves an unpleasant taste in my mouth too see how some of you have responded. Openly Expected though. so listen to my opinion. As far as EQ2, yea, good game, vast, exceptionally sound mechanics, but it started off buggy and had to pump out everything it could to make it not so cruddy. First impression is everything in the mind of impatient youngins and mmo veterans. and to me eq2 even with all the updates still falls slightly short of this game, its ceiling I would say is much lower, and insignificant considering Lord of the rings online has a better story, is better developed, more polished, and has update after update and an expansion coming soon and for the most part, the company turbine listens to their customers. the ceiling is obviously higher, the potential is obviously greater, and last i checked it was the #1 mmo rated on here, so whose talking? i mean guild wars for god sakes is on the list, thats not even an mmo, thats like a mo, multiplayer online role playing game, but it definitely gives you that 'i wont really get to know anyone' feeling at times. think about how crappy that top rated list is? ive played all those games, city of vilains people get all excited because you can wear a cape and fly....thats not anything new, thats what the game is about, itsnot new mechanics, you buy a game because your interested in its content, as far as innovation, the only thing games like wow did was what lotro did, polish things up, and make it more user friendly, so what draws us in(even if your unlikely to admit it)......is the subject of the game. For those that think LOtro is boring, then you must not play mmos because this game does not attempt to break any barriers, it only simply improves upon the original formula, so well in fact that i believe this was the cleanest release EVER, and if you like ROLE PLAYING GAMES, and playing with a MASSIVE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE, then this is what you want. no mmo has broken any barriers, fighting mechanics have stayed the same, and in recent memory mmos have become cookie cutter games for the mass audience rather than catering to the experienced more hardcore crowd. as far as this game and mmos go, nothing is new, just same old rehash after rehash, oh my gosh! class specific player vs player! oh my gosh, new raid boss! holy crap! we can control WHERE WE HIT? for god sakes, what are we even getting excited about?!?!? something that should have been routinely implemented in EVERY mmo. Even AoC, and WAR are the same formula, so what draws people in? Lore, races, classes, concept, reviews, opinions, forums such as these, but is there any innovation in the collect and kill , n collect and raid .....no...nothing new....same ol shii think of the reason you bought final fantasy after final fantasy? HOLY crap a new limit break system?!?! you bought it for the story, for the character development, for the monsters you would face, for the encounters that would be difficult. the coolness of telling your buds that you took down the ruby weapon....you bought it even though they were all basically the same format. saying games like lotro copied wow is like saying half life copied the original doom. im drawn into lotro because i like mmos as a whole, andi could pick up any mmo and enjoy it, but i enjoy this one the most because i like polished games that get everyting jus right. races and classes, its lore, its monsters, and i like the current way mmos play combat wise so i dont rant about the system, what i rant about is the lack of playability, something that games like vangaurd and fury had me going crazy over.
now will i get warhammer? probably will i get aoc? probably but are they really offering me anything significantly new besides a diffrent setting and maybe a few diffrent ways of competing against one another? Definitely not anything revolutionary, just a diffrent scenery that garners my interest and the atmosphere of a game is what draws me in, and if aoc or warhammer cant do that then im stickin to my guns, and thats this game. REAL TALK. trust that im open to everyones opinion, so dont be offended by mine, but this the reality of the gaming industry, put out what works, so you just have to find your niche, and wait for that next developer to break the mold
This is a very good post. It goes to show people do have different opinions. I guess you always have to be careful calling certain players out is all (I keep getting told that because of the fervent approach I have toward my dislike of LOTRO) and the beginning of YOUR post did the same...call out the WoW'ers, and you will get a war..
I do want to note that I think you may be wrong on AoC though. As this game may be the first to "revolutionize" the MMO, by allowing some features not available and never tried in MMO's
Drunken Brawling
Real time combat
Spell weaving
Single player tutorial
More mature material (kinda like M&M's with an extra M...YUM)
I know the naysayers say it is not ready...but lately...how many games are...even LOTRO crashed once opening day...and needed a big ole patch...
I personally think AoC is taking all the right steps,,,and as well, no Elves, Orcs, etc...which also helps...WAR still sounds like WoW/DAoc combined...so it is not taking many risks...AoC is a BIG risk
But, I though Tabula Rasa had it right when they started, and then they released the "miracle patch" which made it like every other game out now...
Lets hope something comes down the line that will be a hit like WoW...I may not play WoW, but they certainly did things right, and my year in that game was some of the best times...
Later
I see what your saying about the innovation that AoC is attempting to claim is innovation but understand that innovation in my perception of the word is an overhaul of what has already been proven to work.
drunken brawling is a small insignicant change, if im a reviewer, that in combination with the ability to collect other players heads as trophies (an examplie) will bump you upfrom a 79 to a 80, which is whats going to sell a bunch of games, but not what is going to change them. I agree to an extent that AOC is carving its OWN path in some aspects, BUT how long will that new path keep you satisfied.
Ok lets put this into perspective, How long after you turn on that game will you get bored of clicking which way you can swing and it will become an issue of just swinging so you can get to level 80?
Or, how long before drunken brawling is not even an issue in the game and everyone is talking about taking control of one of the 9 keeps on the server? Or how long will it take for you to get past the 1 or 2 day single player experience before you will forget in an mmo that you will play for 2+ years?
Heres what im saying: constant innovation leads to a consistent change.
Lets go ahead and implement concepts, or theorize about what MMOS *could* do.
1. Overhaul the combat system, Stop the click and point, make it more intuitive, apply more skill, MMOs have got the strategy part down behind taking a foe apart, but what about the level of skill needed besides the right spell selection. You can change this vastly, anything from implementing level breaks in final fantasy 8, or Cabal Online's only shining point (combo system) into a quality p2p mmo, too having an dungeon crawler like type interface with thousands of players (not any jump into a vortex with only 7 other players diablo esque format), or maybe making the combat more fun, half the players i see fighting are standing letting the monsters hit them, its just a matter of time before the monster goes down, its basically how much time you have in the day to level up, where does your level of skill equate into gaining a level?
2. PVP could be much more dramatic in all mmos (not just a select few), have a larger effect on people and change the game. Ok lets stop for a second and ask, 'does it matter if the raid boss is a bunch of lvl 100 baddies or 100's of other players?' Most attempts at pvp are weak, lost in the midst of the complaints of the people, but there are multiple ways (if i had all the ideas id answer them) that mmos could go that would allow pvp to be enjoyable by all and be the centerpiece of the game besides just an add-on. People want the biggest raid challenge? How about having the dungeons filled with actual players from the other side leading up to the PvE raid encounter? I dont know, I believe that a human is much smarter than A.I. and that would be the ULTIMATE accomplishment.
3. Diffent set pieces. How about a grand theft auto type Mmo, or a call of duty 4 type mmo (i mean how many of these have their been and which ones were actually widely accepted and played well)?
this is just a few Ideas. Obviously they arent very GOOD ones, but they are significant enough that if you equate the money made to the amount of changes made in mmos over the year....then you know you are getting ripped off and are paying too much to get so little.
I agree that a lot of your concepts are sound ceruthian...but can todays game engines pull this off is key
I think if a game takes some type of risk at least and tries to do something different, it is a start to more companies taking the plunge and moving ahead with innovation.
If LOTRO is such a success (which people say it is...reviews are one thing...hard core numbers would be more indicative....) why should any company make any effort to innovate...lets play it safe, as people will continue to play the boring stuff...
It may have the Tolkien lore, it may have music and some other features...but, it still is the same gameplay as every other MMO, and nothing new is added to the mix..
If people will take a chance on something NEW...really NEW...like AoC, then companies will see people want change and want to see this "innovation" and it will push the companies to further their games, their online engines...
If AoC does not pull it off...then the only other company who has ANY chance to make an innovative or diferent game....or that next "hit" will be Bioware...
Otherwise...the MMO will go the way of the FPS...is any FPS really that different than the next?
According to the new MMOGCHART.com analysis, LOTRO went from a 1.2% market share down to 0.9%. This indicates a negative growth rate on top of an already extremely low market share. I would bet the reason is that many people do not find LOTRO to be a fun and entertaining game, not because of the IP, but because of it's implementation. This is Turbine's biggest hit and yet it still sucks in the subscription department. What does that say about Turbine's ability to make a fun game that has mass appeal. Even EQ2 beats out this game with it's larger market share. The IP alone should have been a blockbuster. The problem is that they grossly overestimated Turbine's abilties to produce a stellar game.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
According to the new MMOGCHART.com analysis, LOTRO went from a 1.2% market share down to 0.9%. This indicates a negative growth rate on top of an already extremely low market share. I would bet the reason is that many people do not find LOTRO to be a fun and entertaining game, not because of the IP, but because of it's implementation. This is Turbine's biggest hit and yet it still sucks in the subscription department. What does that say about Turbine's ability to make a fun game that has mass appeal. Even EQ2 beats out this game with it's larger market share. The IP alone should have been a blockbuster. The problem is that they grossly overestimated Turbine's abilties to produce a stellar game.
Nice find...sorry for the loss guys...
But, maybe the expansion will pull those numbers back up
According to the new MMOGCHART.com analysis, LOTRO went from a 1.2% market share down to 0.9%. This indicates a negative growth rate on top of an already extremely low market share. I would bet the reason is that many people do not find LOTRO to be a fun and entertaining game, not because of the IP, but because of it's implementation. This is Turbine's biggest hit and yet it still sucks in the subscription department. What does that say about Turbine's ability to make a fun game that has mass appeal. Even EQ2 beats out this game with it's larger market share. The IP alone should have been a blockbuster. The problem is that they grossly overestimated Turbine's abilties to produce a stellar game.
From the other thread on that sites accuracy:
From reading the site's Analysis and Conclusions area you will find this excerpt:
A – This indicates that the vast majority of the data points shown come from either official announcements by the companies involved or reliable inside sources. The numbers can be considered reliable, although a few of the data points may be incorrect.
B – This indicates that while some of the data points shown may be official, a substantial number come from press articles, unproven inside sources, or other indirect means. The numbers may not be exact for the MMOG in question, but are certainly in the ballpark.
C – This indicates that most or all of the data points provided are merely industry “best guesses” or are otherwise questionable. Usually, I will not chart MMOGs that rate C or lower. Their numbers should be taken with a large grain of salt.
D – This indicates that no data is available for this game at this time, but I expect to get something chart-worthy on it in the future.
(Highlights added for emphasis)
So unless you look at the game with the letter grade in mind... it's kinda pointless to compare. It all comes down to trust. Do you trust that Sir Bruce is indeed basing his numbers off "inside" sources? How reliable are those sources? What is used to validate who they say they are?
I'm not sold that the information is all that accurate... but it's about all the MMO world has to go on, so it is what it is. There is another site doing the same thing... but I forget it's address now, and it's not really important for this discussion anyway.
Just as an FYI I listed a few of the MMOs and their cooresponding letter grade... as well as last date for data. A person really has to take all that in mind when looking at this kind of data.
Ultima Online - Accuracy: A - Dec. 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 3
Everquest - Accuracy: B - Jan. 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 1
Asheron's Call - Accuracy: B - Feb. 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 1
Anarchy Online - Accuracy: B - Dec. 2005 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 0
DAoC - Accuracy: C - March 2008 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 5
WW2 Online - Accuracy: A - July 2005 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 0
Tibia - Accuracy: A - March 2008 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 15
FFXI Online - Accuracy: B - Oct. 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 3
EvE Online - Accuracy: A - April 2008 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 16
Star Wars Galaxies - Accuracy: C - Oct. 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 1
COH / Villians - Accuracy: A - Dec. 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 4
Dofus - Accuracy: A - April 2008 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 16
Everquest 2 - Accuracy: B - Jan. 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 1
Matrix Online - Accuracy: B - May 2006 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 0
D&D Online - Accuracy: B - Feb. 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 2
Vanguard - Accuracy: C - May 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 3
LoTRO - Accuracy: B - Dec. 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 3
Tabula Rasa - Accuracy: C - March 2008 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 2
World of Warcraft - Accuracy: A - Jan. 2008 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 6
So, what does all that gibberish above mean?
It means that there is a lot of guesswork going on. There are 3 or 4 MMOs that look like they are reliable (They have an A accuracy rating AND have frequent data points - highlighted above). Most of the others... well, decide for yourself. You can download the spreadsheet and analyze the numbers for yourself if you want (that's what I did).
In the end, I find the overall MMO genre as a whole very interesting in respect to examining the subscription/subscriber #'s. As far as the reliability of the numbers... well that's the great part about this discussion... everyone can form their own opinion.
Edit: made the font size a bit bigger... it was really small.
According to the new MMOGCHART.com analysis, LOTRO went from a 1.2% market share down to 0.9%. This indicates a negative growth rate on top of an already extremely low market share. I would bet the reason is that many people do not find LOTRO to be a fun and entertaining game, not because of the IP, but because of it's implementation. This is Turbine's biggest hit and yet it still sucks in the subscription department. What does that say about Turbine's ability to make a fun game that has mass appeal. Even EQ2 beats out this game with it's larger market share. The IP alone should have been a blockbuster. The problem is that they grossly overestimated Turbine's abilties to produce a stellar game.
considering the fact that my LOTRO server is constantly seeing new players join, and old players come back, I can't say the game is losing players. Seems to be growing rapidly.
considering the fact that my LOTRO server is constantly seeing new players join, and old players come back, I can't say the game is losing players. Seems to be growing rapidly.
From reading the site's Analysis and Conclusions area you will find this excerpt: A – This indicates that the vast majority of the data points shown come from either official announcements by the companies involved or reliable inside sources. The numbers can be considered reliable, although a few of the data points may be incorrect. B – This indicates that while some of the data points shown may be official, a substantial number come from press articles, unproven inside sources, or other indirect means. The numbers may not be exact for the MMOG in question, but are certainly in the ballpark. C – This indicates that most or all of the data points provided are merely industry “best guesses” or are otherwise questionable. Usually, I will not chart MMOGs that rate C or lower. Their numbers should be taken with a large grain of salt. D – This indicates that no data is available for this game at this time, but I expect to get something chart-worthy on it in the future. (Highlights added for emphasis)
So unless you look at the game with the letter grade in mind... it's kinda pointless to compare. It all comes down to trust. Do you trust that Sir Bruce is indeed basing his numbers off "inside" sources? How reliable are those sources? What is used to validate who they say they are? I'm not sold that the information is all that accurate... but it's about all the MMO world has to go on, so it is what it is. There is another site doing the same thing... but I forget it's address now, and it's not really important for this discussion anyway.
Just as an FYI I listed a few of the MMOs and their cooresponding letter grade... as well as last date for data. A person really has to take all that in mind when looking at this kind of data.
Ultima Online - Accuracy: A - Dec. 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 3 Everquest - Accuracy: B - Jan. 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 1
Asheron's Call - Accuracy: B - Feb. 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 1
Anarchy Online - Accuracy: B - Dec. 2005 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 0
DAoC - Accuracy: C - March 2008 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 5
WW2 Online - Accuracy: A - July 2005 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 0
Tibia - Accuracy: A - March 2008 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 15
FFXI Online - Accuracy: B - Oct. 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 3
EvE Online - Accuracy: A - April 2008 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 16
Star Wars Galaxies - Accuracy: C - Oct. 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 1
COH / Villians - Accuracy: A - Dec. 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 4
Dofus - Accuracy: A - April 2008 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 16
Everquest 2 - Accuracy: B - Jan. 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 1
Matrix Online - Accuracy: B - May 2006 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 0
D&D Online - Accuracy: B - Feb. 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 2
Vanguard - Accuracy: C - May 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 3
LoTRO - Accuracy: B - Dec. 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 3
Tabula Rasa - Accuracy: C - March 2008 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 2
World of Warcraft - Accuracy: A - Jan. 2008 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 6
So, what does all that gibberish above mean? It means that there is a lot of guesswork going on. There are 3 or 4 MMOs that look like they are reliable (They have an A accuracy rating AND have frequent data points - highlighted above). Most of the others... well, decide for yourself. You can download the spreadsheet and analyze the numbers for yourself if you want (that's what I did). In the end, I find the overall MMO genre as a whole very interesting in respect to examining the subscription/subscriber #'s. As far as the reliability of the numbers... well that's the great part about this discussion... everyone can form their own opinion.
Edit: made the font size a bit bigger... it was really small.
I think it is important to note credentials, and the willingness for several companies to share data with this person that until we have a better picture from Turbine, we can only view the available data...
So far this data is the most reliable for numbers. And a shrinking population is not a good sign is my belief...not unless we see a rise again..
Since only two reports have included LOTRO so far, this could be "lulls" as players wait for more content...as that has seemed to slow down..
But, as I stated, the expansion should see a rise in numbers...as some of the changes coming look interesting...more classes, changes to the UI...all good stuff..
considering the fact that my LOTRO server is constantly seeing new players join, and old players come back, I can't say the game is losing players. Seems to be growing rapidly.
Vanguard players say the same thing...
Interesting
I wouldn't doubt it. Probably more people trying V out now that it has been out for a while, and has had some work done to it.
I've noticed a lot of ex-wow players lately starting up LOTRO. People are getting tired of it, and looking for other games.
According to the new MMOGCHART.com analysis, LOTRO went from a 1.2% market share down to 0.9%. This indicates a negative growth rate on top of an already extremely low market share. I would bet the reason is that many people do not find LOTRO to be a fun and entertaining game, not because of the IP, but because of it's implementation. This is Turbine's biggest hit and yet it still sucks in the subscription department. What does that say about Turbine's ability to make a fun game that has mass appeal. Even EQ2 beats out this game with it's larger market share. The IP alone should have been a blockbuster. The problem is that they grossly overestimated Turbine's abilties to produce a stellar game.
stellar game? its the HIGHEST rating on this site (rightfully so)
Pc mmo of the year, PC game of the year, get OVER yourself.
and even if there was only 1000 players, as long as i had five 2 group with id still have more fun then some other mmos out there.
What exactly does peer pressure have to do with people finding one game more enjoyable than another, pointless argument.
Please show me proof that those numbers are ridiculously overrated, other than your bloated opinion.
Highest ranking on this site I'm afraid is no indication at all. Subscription numbers tell me quite clearly which games are more likely to be fun as long as the game type fits my play style. This site is not at all indicative of the casual community by it's very nature. WoW is more casual friendly and therefore has a much greater number of casual players than LOTRO, why, because we find it to be fun and rewarding and better suited to our play style among other reasons to be sure.
You need to get over yourself bub. All kinds of games get those nifty little PC game of the year titles at one point or another, doesn't mean crap, even SWG got all kinds of praise when it released and it was pretty crappy before the revamp. DAoC, EQ2, CoH/CoV have gotten all kinds of rewards too and they're still niche games with very little mass appeal. Are you just upset that more people don't like the games you like?
Bottom line, if someone is thinking about playing LOTRO, they should take these kinds of things into consideration, otherwise they could me losing out on money to a game some rabid fans think is the best thing since sliced bread when the majority of MMO players certainly do not.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
According to the new MMOGCHART.com analysis, LOTRO went from a 1.2% market share down to 0.9%. This indicates a negative growth rate on top of an already extremely low market share. I would bet the reason is that many people do not find LOTRO to be a fun and entertaining game, not because of the IP, but because of it's implementation. This is Turbine's biggest hit and yet it still sucks in the subscription department. What does that say about Turbine's ability to make a fun game that has mass appeal. Even EQ2 beats out this game with it's larger market share. The IP alone should have been a blockbuster. The problem is that they grossly overestimated Turbine's abilties to produce a stellar game.
stellar game? its the HIGHEST rating on this site (rightfully so)
Pc mmo of the year, PC game of the year, get OVER yourself.
and even if there was only 1000 players, as long as i had five 2 group with id still have more fun then some other mmos out there.
What exactly does peer pressure have to do with people finding one game more enjoyable than another, pointless argument.
Please show me proof that those numbers are ridiculously overrated, other than your bloated opinion.
Highest ranking on this site I'm afraid is no indication at all. Subscription numbers tell me quite clearly which games are more likely to be fun as long as the game type fits my play style. This site is not at all indicative of the casual community by it's very nature. WoW is more casual friendly and therefore has a much greater number of casual players than LOTRO, why, because we find it to be fun and rewarding and better suited to our play style among other reasons to be sure.
You need to get over yourself bub. All kinds of games get those nifty little PC game of the year titles at one point or another, doesn't mean crap, even SWG got all kinds of praise when it released and it was pretty crappy before the revamp. DAoC, EQ2, CoH/CoV have gotten all kinds of rewards too and they're still niche games with very little mass appeal. Are you just upset that more people don't like the games you like?
Bottom line, if someone is thinking about playing LOTRO, they should take these kinds of things into consideration, otherwise they could me losing out on money to a game some rabid fans think is the best thing since sliced bread when the majority of MMO players certainly do not.
You are bashing LOTRo supporters saying all they have aired are their own views. The ammo you used to bash them is your own views. Interesting.
According to the new MMOGCHART.com analysis, LOTRO went from a 1.2% market share down to 0.9%. This indicates a negative growth rate on top of an already extremely low market share. I would bet the reason is that many people do not find LOTRO to be a fun and entertaining game, not because of the IP, but because of it's implementation. This is Turbine's biggest hit and yet it still sucks in the subscription department. What does that say about Turbine's ability to make a fun game that has mass appeal. Even EQ2 beats out this game with it's larger market share. The IP alone should have been a blockbuster. The problem is that they grossly overestimated Turbine's abilties to produce a stellar game.
stellar game? its the HIGHEST rating on this site (rightfully so)
Pc mmo of the year, PC game of the year, get OVER yourself.
and even if there was only 1000 players, as long as i had five 2 group with id still have more fun then some other mmos out there.
What exactly does peer pressure have to do with people finding one game more enjoyable than another, pointless argument.
Please show me proof that those numbers are ridiculously overrated, other than your bloated opinion.
Highest ranking on this site I'm afraid is no indication at all. Subscription numbers tell me quite clearly which games are more likely to be fun as long as the game type fits my play style. This site is not at all indicative of the casual community by it's very nature. WoW is more casual friendly and therefore has a much greater number of casual players than LOTRO, why, because we find it to be fun and rewarding and better suited to our play style among other reasons to be sure.
You need to get over yourself bub. All kinds of games get those nifty little PC game of the year titles at one point or another, doesn't mean crap, even SWG got all kinds of praise when it released and it was pretty crappy before the revamp. DAoC, EQ2, CoH/CoV have gotten all kinds of rewards too and they're still niche games with very little mass appeal. Are you just upset that more people don't like the games you like?
Bottom line, if someone is thinking about playing LOTRO, they should take these kinds of things into consideration, otherwise they could me losing out on money to a game some rabid fans think is the best thing since sliced bread when the majority of MMO players certainly do not.
Wrong.
Now take a deep breath.
Listen
Do you not see the same forums that I see?
The same questions, which get the same answer? have you not been victim to the same false judgement that I have displayed in my younger years? or are you unique to this situation?
You know a VAST majority of players base their subscribing to a game on what OTHER people think. some kids smoke weed for personal reasons, others do it because their peers think its cool
With WOW, you are talking about Blizzard, a gaming mega company. A gaming developers empire and at the head of it is WOW.
Reasons people chose wow:
-Initial routine interest
-Developed by Blizzard (Creators of excellent games such as starcraft, diablo 1 and 2)
-Word of Mouth
Now its to the point where the game is almost losing its luster, but that rabid fan base is still holding on until its completely outdated. a game might not take over wow for another 2-3 years till its entirely IN THE CAN.
Why? because people have an emtional investment in the game, and those people are ussually first time mmo'ers, and i rememebr my first mmo, i never wanted it to end, but eventually it did.
wow catered to those people and won, and the ONLY reason they got all those subcribers is they : first had a track record of making good games, so people LOOKED at the mmo, people who didnt even know what an mmo was before WOW, and then they think 'wow this genre is pretty cool,' so than they attached to it like they would a cute girl. THEN they told there buddies and there buddies was like 'dude she got any friends?' haha just f'n arond.
heres the point: the only thing that will take WOW over is a much MUCH hotter girl (put in perspective) with a ticket to the bahamas, and dinner on the table..
Lotro is hotter, but not by much, but overall it is CLEARLY the better game, is it worth buying? if you wanted a polished formula with the same gameplay your used to it, but if i had to choose between this or wow, its definitely this.
As far as my 'overrated' statement, I was referring to the fact that the number of people that subscrbe to a game is overrated, because clearly there are some games in the videogame market that SALE high, but just because your the best selling game ever.....does that make you the best? because if thats the case then i would have to switch my top pick from final fantasy 7 to halo 3 or grand theft auto. and those are unique revolutionary games, but better than final fantasy 7?
considering the fact that my LOTRO server is constantly seeing new players join, and old players come back, I can't say the game is losing players. Seems to be growing rapidly.
Vanguard players say the same thing...
Interesting
I wouldn't doubt it. Probably more people trying V out now that it has been out for a while, and has had some work done to it.
I've noticed a lot of ex-wow players lately starting up LOTRO. People are getting tired of it, and looking for other games.
I'm in that category. I decided to give Vanguard a try recently to see how it's coming along... and because it's one that I hadn't really checked out beyond beta.
I *did* see a fairly healthy number of low level players - I mean, in a game world that vast, there's going to be alot of space between regardless.. but I crossed paths and even shared mobs (read: competed for) a few times.
I think it has alot of promise. There's alot there to do and learn. It has some very interesting environments and some rather interesting little "touches". The whole "3 Spheres" concept is just a fancy way of packaging what is already in many games... well the Adventuring and Crafting part anyway... the Diplomacy aspect is rather new in my experience; I wasn't that taken with it, personally.
Unfortunately, no matter how good or polished it might become with time, its history is going to create an ever uphill battle for it, I think. Same with Matrix Online, same with post NGE/CU SWG it would seem.
In the end... I don't know bout numbers.. .but I do know that I see people literally everywhere I go now in LoTRO. Always people in OOC or LFF, or what-not. They're not wall-to-wall, thankfully.. But the game is active as it's ever been in my experience.
As far as how a game is a rehash of all that's come before it.. I think it breaks down to two things:
1. Basic Mechanics
2. Implementation
3. Elusive sense of "what players want"
#1 The basic mechanics part can be seen in pretty much any game genre. Most all FPSs will have many basic game mechanics in common. Same with RPGs, same with RTSs, same with Adventure games, and same with MMOs, and so on.
I think the difference comes in #2 - implementation. This seems to be something more nebulous and not so easily "defined". Could almost describe it as how the game "feels".
LoTRO may well have many of the same, or similar, gameplay mechanics to WoW - just as WoW does to those before it and so forth. Arguing who stole what from who is pointless. They all borrow from each other, and always will. In a sense, it boils down to "if it works, why change it?"
That said... WoW bores me to tears - I'm not knocking the game. I acknowledge that it's a polished game and very well-executed. The gameplay, however - the implementation of those core mechanics that are common among MMOs - just doesn't grab me. It feels too "hurried", like despite my efforts to take my time and not level quickly, I am anyway. So many of the game's mechanics seem to conspire to that end. The world design feels "small" to me... very "game like". Again.. not knocking the game.. this is my opinion.
However.. in LoTRO, you have many of the same basic game mechanics as you see in numerous other MMOs - as others have said, Turbine isn't really breaking any new ground - though they are certainly implementing some new twists. I recognize that all too easily. So to me, it has to be something more.
To me, it's the implementation. How the game feels.. how it's designed. While WoW to me feels like a game environment that I'm playing in, LoTRO feels like another world that my character lives in. That's a huge difference for me, especially as I very much prefer the latter.
I don't feel like I'm being pushed along at all in LoTRO. Heck, I'm playing the same character for almost a year, with only a couple months away, and I just hit 35 today. Despite that, there's not a moment of my time online that hasn't been filled doing *something* entertaining. The world feels vast and begging to be explored. To me, LoTRO "feels right" for what I look for in a MMO.
Then there's point #3... Which basically, to me, seems that while many players will say they want "something new" - I don't think many really know what it is exactly that they want. I mean, have you ever asked someone arguing for something new and different to articulate exactly what that is? I have, and many times they can't. I don't think it's so much a longing for "new and different" than it is boredom, or becoming jaded, with the "old and familiar".
In many cases, I've seen games come out that try and push the envelope, or go against the typical mechanics of their given genre - only to be met with hostility by players, who then want the game to be more like the games they've been playing, even when they were those looking for "something new".
So I don't know... I think it's one of those "you don't know what you want, but you'll know it when you see it" type things.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Comments
I think when people state that the lore wouldn't support it, it's more a response to the idea of open world PvP. In that case, people are correct.
Honestly, I think with PvP it boils down to a decision - do they want it to have PvP, or not. And if so, how much? In Turbine's case, they decided early on that PvP would not be an inherent part of the main gameplay. And so it isn't.
At first, as I recall, LoTRO was not to have PvP at all. That simply is not the kind of game they are/were seeking to create. Then later, I suppose in response to enough people showing interest, they had to make a decision... Could they implement PvP in a non-invasive way that would provide those players the competitive gameplay they sought, without up-ending or fundamentally changing the core gameplay in the process?
I believe PvMP as their solution was quite brilliant.PvMP is implemented as a 100% optional side activity. You can PvP without affecting at all the flow of things in the main PvE game. Freeps can bring their characters in at will, still playing as the "good guys". Creeps can do their thing, and it all happens in a way that does not bleed over into the PvE content, the main game. It's separate enough that no matter how hostile things get in the 'moors - or any new PvMP areas they add later - once a player has had their fill and leaves that PvP enabled area, they are back to the key PvE experience Turbine is most focused on.
Turbine are clearly being ever-so-careful to not screw with the core gameplay in LoTRO, while still trying to meet the players half-way where they can; and to their credit.
In closing, I think it's best when a MMO dev focuses most on one or the other and doesn't try to please all sides. More times than not, trying to please everyone equally in a MMO fails, because it's seldom ever "good enough" for either side.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
While I don't mean to offend your seeking intellectual discourse on what could be with the LoTRO, I fear those types of conversations, because with the last two MMO's I played that is how the initiation of change begins. Before you know it, some new crack team of designers come in, coupled with their own ideas of how the game should progress, and then choose to read a few forums (to "gauge" what the customers want), and bam it is something totally different from the original view.
Everquest is now morphed into some half thought up set of ideas that have no lore or direction as it began. Each expansion corrupted the game a little more, then after SOE took over they kept shifting designers around so that you couldn't get a congruent story line if you tried. And talk to dedication Warcraft players, the same has happened to it, the lore is totally abandoned from the original story lines.
I am happy with the state of the game now, I love the lore, and I love the innovations that Turbine places into the game. I fear that if a new crack team comes in before you know it we will have a space ship crash land into middle earth and demons will come forth in an invasion straight out of hell and the lorekeepers will accidently open a rift in the space time continuem that will open a land of never dreamed beings that wreak havoc and darkness upon the land. Ya, talking about what could be scares me to be frank. But feel free, you have the right to say any input you feel, just expect me to give mine in return.
I wouldn't say I "failed" to get your point, or catch your sarcasm. I'd say you failed pretty thoroughly to convey either.
There is absolutely nothing in your post that I quoted or responded to that indicates anything you are claiming it does. There's no use of quotes, or obvious exaggeration or anything of the sort to indicate anything you say in your post is at all sarcastic or facetious. Not even a follow-up like "See what I did there?", or (/sarcasm off).
I'm sure you realize that in text, the tone or intent of a statement, including sarcasm, is easily lost without any such qualifier.
Had you done more to make your intended tone more obvious, not I nor likely anyone else would have missed it.
For the record, yes, I do tend to call people out for what they say in their posts (or on what they say in real life). Not so much out of "enjoyment" though. I loathe intellectual dishonesty, blatant/blind bias and spin-doctoring (little wonder I stopped listening to politicians or taking them seriously).
I did get the condescension and sarcasm in your "you should use red" statement. Unfortunately, it was a pretty weak attempt.
Ummm the "red" comment was not sarcasm. I meant it. Red stands out more that is all. Not everything has deep dark meanings. You certianly pointed that out about my writing style in this post.
What I did was try to express my feelings about the OPs claims on WoW it's fan base and LOTRO. It was also filled with gross generalizations. I tried to present the idea in a similar way as the OP because I found it a bit of a put down to WoW players. Successful or not I stand by all my opinions on both LOTRO and WoW. However, this was not a deep ironic poke at the OP. I was not trying to express a wildly intellectual attack on the OP. If you read other of my posts I rarely do that. I am not that smart, I just like to talk about mmos. I try to do that in a variety of ways. I am a little suprised someone who writes as well as you do took my posts here so seriously. I am not a writer by profession I just like to try to express myself in a variety of ways on these forums. I am an artist by profession. I for one do not ever call people "out" I just do not feel the need. We all express ourselves in the way we seem fit. Who am I to tell people they are wrong or my way is better. One good thing with that approach to life (and mmos) is it makes for a more stress free life. Most just read the posts agree or disagree and move on, since everything here is "opinion".
I think when people state that the lore wouldn't support it, it's more a response to the idea of open world PvP. In that case, people are correct.
Honestly, I think with PvP it boils down to a decision - do they want it to have PvP, or not. And if so, how much? In Turbine's case, they decided early on that PvP would not be an inherent part of the main gameplay. And so it isn't.
At first, as I recall, LoTRO was not to have PvP at all. That simply is not the kind of game they are/were seeking to create. Then later, I suppose in response to enough people showing interest, they had to make a decision... Could they implement PvP in a non-invasive way that would provide those players the competitive gameplay they sought, without up-ending or fundamentally changing the core gameplay in the process?
I believe PvMP as their solution was quite brilliant.PvMP is implemented as a 100% optional side activity. You can PvP without affecting at all the flow of things in the main PvE game. Freeps can bring their characters in at will, still playing as the "good guys". Creeps can do their thing, and it all happens in a way that does not bleed over into the PvE content, the main game. It's separate enough that no matter how hostile things get in the 'moors - or any new PvMP areas they add later - once a player has had their fill and leaves that PvP enabled area, they are back to the key PvE experience Turbine is most focused on.
Turbine are clearly being ever-so-careful to not screw with the core gameplay in LoTRO, while still trying to meet the players half-way where they can; and to their credit.
In closing, I think it's best when a MMO dev focuses most on one or the other and doesn't try to please all sides. More times than not, trying to please everyone equally in a MMO fails, because it's seldom ever "good enough" for either side.
Absolutely spot on commentary, especially concerning "pleasing all of the people all of the time". Quite simply, you can't and Turbine's approach is the ONLY approach. If we look at other games that have diametrically changed themselves to cater to a certain demographic while ignoring or marginalising the original demographic, they usually end up with neither. LotrO has done a very good job of catering to everyone while making sure that one type of play does not directly interfere with another.
S
So whats the verdict exactly on LOTR? Since i quit WoW (due to the fact that if i left my account active i would play the game way too much and be too pressured to raid/arena when I had work to do--it had nothing to do with the game itself) I've been looking for a new MMO that I could play casually and pressure free, since I'd essentially just be playing on my own and for myself, not with friends.
I tried EQ2 for almost a month, and quit that because I really couldn't get myself past level 30 due to the terrible organization of questing hubs, itemization (there was one new starting quest area that basically gave you gear that you were forced to use until level 40 because Sony didn't bother balancing the rest of the questing gear), and the fact that the dungeons weren't really instanced, which was something i really liked about WoW, not having to fight other groups for boss spawns.
EQ2 was also crappy in that there was virtually no pvp but i've kind of come to terms with the fact that WoW or maybe Guild Wars will be the only games that focus and do well with PvP until Warhammer comes out.
So how is LOTR compared to other MMOs? The graphics look amazing and gameplay looks pretty easy to grasp. Are the quests pretty organized and soloable (as in you don't log in for 2 hours and spend the entire time trying to figure out where one or two quests are, or trying to find a group)? Is the game interesting enough outside of grinding to keep you immersed and able to keep playing? Are there generally a lot of dungeons as you level, if you wanted to play in a group for a while?
yes, LOTRO is very casual friendly. It sounds like it would be right up your ally.
~~~ Currently Playing ~~~
LOTRO- Guardian Wrymstrum & Lore-master Stabler on Nimrodel.
Conan- Zoltar <Angels of Death> Guardian on Stormrage.
I think its almost consensus among many of us that LOTRo is worth trying, esp the free trial. The game is great during the tutorial where you have a story related to the RING lore. Once outside the tutorial, you can feel at home with the lore, as the home world is very sweetly done. Try the hobbits for the very beautiful home town, and the music, can't express it in words, you got to listen to it.
Will you like it? Lets look at your own list of "sort after"s
1. Are the quests well done? Yes, lots of quests, from kill X, to fancy pie delivery (and its really not too easy), to huge epic long quests, lots of variants, lots of quests. You generally have enough quests to level to 50, if you do not want to grind.
2. The game is totally soloable. I soloed 2 alts to max. Of course, if you are totally new, you will need to spent some time knowing where misty mountain is, unless you know it from LOTR books already. Mob-wise yes you can solo. Quest-wise yes they are soloable.
3. Is it interesting, yes for me, for a long while. Grinding is possible, and not necessary. The scenery is great and immersion too. The community is among the best.
4. Dungeons and quests for groups yes, lots. For quests you already finished, you can repeat it so long as one member of your group still has it.
The good thing about LOTRo, even among those of us who have left the game one way or another, we all find the game very attractive, and few were vocal about any particular weakness of the game.
I wouldn't say I "failed" to get your point, or catch your sarcasm. I'd say you failed pretty thoroughly to convey either.
There is absolutely nothing in your post that I quoted or responded to that indicates anything you are claiming it does. There's no use of quotes, or obvious exaggeration or anything of the sort to indicate anything you say in your post is at all sarcastic or facetious. Not even a follow-up like "See what I did there?", or (/sarcasm off).
I'm sure you realize that in text, the tone or intent of a statement, including sarcasm, is easily lost without any such qualifier.
Had you done more to make your intended tone more obvious, not I nor likely anyone else would have missed it.
For the record, yes, I do tend to call people out for what they say in their posts (or on what they say in real life). Not so much out of "enjoyment" though. I loathe intellectual dishonesty, blatant/blind bias and spin-doctoring (little wonder I stopped listening to politicians or taking them seriously).
I did get the condescension and sarcasm in your "you should use red" statement. Unfortunately, it was a pretty weak attempt.
Ummm the "red" comment was not sarcasm. I meant it. Red stands out more that is all. Not everything has deep dark meanings. You certianly pointed that out about my writing style in this post.
What I did was try to express my feelings about the OPs claims on WoW it's fan base and LOTRO. It was also filled with gross generalizations. I tried to present the idea in a similar way as the OP because I found it a bit of a put down to WoW players. Successful or not I stand by all my opinions on both LOTRO and WoW. However, this was not a deep ironic poke at the OP. I was not trying to express a wildly intellectual attack on the OP. If you read other of my posts I rarely do that. I am not that smart, I just like to talk about mmos. I try to do that in a variety of ways. I am a little suprised someone who writes as well as you do took my posts here so seriously. I am not a writer by profession I just like to try to express myself in a variety of ways on these forums. I am an artist by profession. I for one do not ever call people "out" I just do not feel the need. We all express ourselves in the way we seem fit. Who am I to tell people they are wrong or my way is better. One good thing with that approach to life (and mmos) is it makes for a more stress free life. Most just read the posts agree or disagree and move on, since everything here is "opinion".
Well, going forward, I certainly have a better idea of how to read your posts. For the one in question, I could only go by what was in "white and black" in front of me. There was nothing giving any indication of whether it was serious, tongue-in-cheek or otherwise. So I took it as it read, to me.
That said, I don't really tend to maintain a running profile on most posters here; there are very few whose posts I "stand out" in terms of tone simply because of a loooong post history to go by. Overall, I tend to respond on a post-by-post basis. You'll see sometimes I'm 100% in agreement with someone in one post, then 100% opposed in the next.
In any case.. no harm done and no hard feelings
.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
i ve just started lord of the rings , its a game i was always interested in but essentially i only play one pay to play mmo at a time . i d got to the point where i was bored with warcraft and i personally think both conan and warhammer will see further delays ( inspite of conan still having a may release) so this seamed like the perfect filler . i m suprised how good it actually is so i may end up staying here longer than i anticipated after all theres bound to be issues that need ironing out when conan and warhammer are eventually released so it might be wise to leave it a few months before playing them . anyway if your fed up with your mmo and fancy trying something new you could do a hell of a lot worse than lord of the rings . its very accessable and the communitys friendly .
EQ2 I hear is a good game, I just dont like WOW. WOW sucks, and I REALLY didnt mean for this thread to get this big but I Assume since rants, complaints and insults are the center of what a forum is about, then It leaves an unpleasant taste in my mouth too see how some of you have responded. Openly Expected though. so listen to my opinion.
As far as EQ2, yea, good game, vast, exceptionally sound mechanics, but it started off buggy and had to pump out everything it could to make it not so cruddy. First impression is everything in the mind of impatient youngins and mmo veterans. and to me eq2 even with all the updates still falls slightly short of this game, its ceiling I would say is much lower, and insignificant considering Lord of the rings online has a better story, is better developed, more polished, and has update after update and an expansion coming soon and for the most part, the company turbine listens to their customers. the ceiling is obviously higher, the potential is obviously greater, and last i checked it was the #1 mmo rated on here, so whose talking? i mean guild wars for god sakes is on the list, thats not even an mmo, thats like a mo, multiplayer online role playing game, but it definitely gives you that 'i wont really get to know anyone' feeling at times.
think about how crappy that top rated list is? ive played all those games, city of vilains people get all excited because you can wear a cape and fly....thats not anything new, thats what the game is about, itsnot new mechanics, you buy a game because your interested in its content, as far as innovation, the only thing games like wow did was what lotro did, polish things up, and make it more user friendly, so what draws us in(even if your unlikely to admit it)......is the subject of the game.
For those that think LOtro is boring, then you must not play mmos because this game does not attempt to break any barriers, it only simply improves upon the original formula, so well in fact that i believe this was the cleanest release EVER, and if you like ROLE PLAYING GAMES, and playing with a MASSIVE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE, then this is what you want. no mmo has broken any barriers, fighting mechanics have stayed the same, and in recent memory mmos have become cookie cutter games for the mass audience rather than catering to the experienced more hardcore crowd.
as far as this game and mmos go, nothing is new, just same old rehash after rehash, oh my gosh! class specific player vs player! oh my gosh, new raid boss! holy crap! we can control WHERE WE HIT? for god sakes, what are we even getting excited about?!?!? something that should have been routinely implemented in EVERY mmo. Even AoC, and WAR are the same formula, so what draws people in?
Lore, races, classes, concept, reviews, opinions, forums such as these, but is there any innovation in the collect and kill , n collect and raid .....no...nothing new....same ol shii
think of the reason you bought final fantasy after final fantasy? HOLY crap a new limit break system?!?! you bought it for the story, for the character development, for the monsters you would face, for the encounters that would be difficult. the coolness of telling your buds that you took down the ruby weapon....you bought it even though they were all basically the same format.
saying games like lotro copied wow is like saying half life copied the original doom.
im drawn into lotro because i like mmos as a whole, andi could pick up any mmo and enjoy it, but i enjoy this one the most because i like polished games that get everyting jus right. races and classes, its lore, its monsters, and i like the current way mmos play combat wise so i dont rant about the system, what i rant about is the lack of playability, something that games like vangaurd and fury had me going crazy over.
now will i get warhammer? probably
will i get aoc? probably
but are they really offering me anything significantly new besides a diffrent setting and maybe a few diffrent ways of competing against one another? Definitely not anything revolutionary, just a diffrent scenery that garners my interest and the atmosphere of a game is what draws me in, and if aoc or warhammer cant do that then im stickin to my guns, and thats this game.
REAL TALK.
trust that im open to everyones opinion, so dont be offended by mine, but this the reality of the gaming industry, put out what works, so you just have to find your niche, and wait for that next developer to break the mold
This is a very good post. It goes to show people do have different opinions. I guess you always have to be careful calling certain players out is all (I keep getting told that because of the fervent approach I have toward my dislike of LOTRO) and the beginning of YOUR post did the same...call out the WoW'ers, and you will get a war..
I do want to note that I think you may be wrong on AoC though. As this game may be the first to "revolutionize" the MMO, by allowing some features not available and never tried in MMO's
Drunken Brawling
Real time combat
Spell weaving
Single player tutorial
More mature material (kinda like M&M's with an extra M...YUM)
I know the naysayers say it is not ready...but lately...how many games are...even LOTRO crashed once opening day...and needed a big ole patch...
I personally think AoC is taking all the right steps,,,and as well, no Elves, Orcs, etc...which also helps...WAR still sounds like WoW/DAoc combined...so it is not taking many risks...AoC is a BIG risk
But, I though Tabula Rasa had it right when they started, and then they released the "miracle patch" which made it like every other game out now...
Lets hope something comes down the line that will be a hit like WoW...I may not play WoW, but they certainly did things right, and my year in that game was some of the best times...
Later
This is a very good post. It goes to show people do have different opinions. I guess you always have to be careful calling certain players out is all (I keep getting told that because of the fervent approach I have toward my dislike of LOTRO) and the beginning of YOUR post did the same...call out the WoW'ers, and you will get a war..
I do want to note that I think you may be wrong on AoC though. As this game may be the first to "revolutionize" the MMO, by allowing some features not available and never tried in MMO's
Drunken Brawling
Real time combat
Spell weaving
Single player tutorial
More mature material (kinda like M&M's with an extra M...YUM)
I know the naysayers say it is not ready...but lately...how many games are...even LOTRO crashed once opening day...and needed a big ole patch...
I personally think AoC is taking all the right steps,,,and as well, no Elves, Orcs, etc...which also helps...WAR still sounds like WoW/DAoc combined...so it is not taking many risks...AoC is a BIG risk
But, I though Tabula Rasa had it right when they started, and then they released the "miracle patch" which made it like every other game out now...
Lets hope something comes down the line that will be a hit like WoW...I may not play WoW, but they certainly did things right, and my year in that game was some of the best times...
Later
I see what your saying about the innovation that AoC is attempting to claim is innovation but understand that innovation in my perception of the word is an overhaul of what has already been proven to work.
drunken brawling is a small insignicant change, if im a reviewer, that in combination with the ability to collect other players heads as trophies (an examplie) will bump you upfrom a 79 to a 80, which is whats going to sell a bunch of games, but not what is going to change them. I agree to an extent that AOC is carving its OWN path in some aspects, BUT how long will that new path keep you satisfied.
Ok lets put this into perspective, How long after you turn on that game will you get bored of clicking which way you can swing and it will become an issue of just swinging so you can get to level 80?
Or, how long before drunken brawling is not even an issue in the game and everyone is talking about taking control of one of the 9 keeps on the server? Or how long will it take for you to get past the 1 or 2 day single player experience before you will forget in an mmo that you will play for 2+ years?
Heres what im saying: constant innovation leads to a consistent change.
Lets go ahead and implement concepts, or theorize about what MMOS *could* do.
1. Overhaul the combat system, Stop the click and point, make it more intuitive, apply more skill, MMOs have got the strategy part down behind taking a foe apart, but what about the level of skill needed besides the right spell selection. You can change this vastly, anything from implementing level breaks in final fantasy 8, or Cabal Online's only shining point (combo system) into a quality p2p mmo, too having an dungeon crawler like type interface with thousands of players (not any jump into a vortex with only 7 other players diablo esque format), or maybe making the combat more fun, half the players i see fighting are standing letting the monsters hit them, its just a matter of time before the monster goes down, its basically how much time you have in the day to level up, where does your level of skill equate into gaining a level?
2. PVP could be much more dramatic in all mmos (not just a select few), have a larger effect on people and change the game. Ok lets stop for a second and ask, 'does it matter if the raid boss is a bunch of lvl 100 baddies or 100's of other players?' Most attempts at pvp are weak, lost in the midst of the complaints of the people, but there are multiple ways (if i had all the ideas id answer them) that mmos could go that would allow pvp to be enjoyable by all and be the centerpiece of the game besides just an add-on. People want the biggest raid challenge? How about having the dungeons filled with actual players from the other side leading up to the PvE raid encounter? I dont know, I believe that a human is much smarter than A.I. and that would be the ULTIMATE accomplishment.
3. Diffent set pieces. How about a grand theft auto type Mmo, or a call of duty 4 type mmo (i mean how many of these have their been and which ones were actually widely accepted and played well)?
this is just a few Ideas. Obviously they arent very GOOD ones, but they are significant enough that if you equate the money made to the amount of changes made in mmos over the year....then you know you are getting ripped off and are paying too much to get so little.
thanks.
Without too much derailing...
I agree that a lot of your concepts are sound ceruthian...but can todays game engines pull this off is key
I think if a game takes some type of risk at least and tries to do something different, it is a start to more companies taking the plunge and moving ahead with innovation.
If LOTRO is such a success (which people say it is...reviews are one thing...hard core numbers would be more indicative....) why should any company make any effort to innovate...lets play it safe, as people will continue to play the boring stuff...
It may have the Tolkien lore, it may have music and some other features...but, it still is the same gameplay as every other MMO, and nothing new is added to the mix..
If people will take a chance on something NEW...really NEW...like AoC, then companies will see people want change and want to see this "innovation" and it will push the companies to further their games, their online engines...
If AoC does not pull it off...then the only other company who has ANY chance to make an innovative or diferent game....or that next "hit" will be Bioware...
Otherwise...the MMO will go the way of the FPS...is any FPS really that different than the next?
Later
According to the new MMOGCHART.com analysis, LOTRO went from a 1.2% market share down to 0.9%. This indicates a negative growth rate on top of an already extremely low market share. I would bet the reason is that many people do not find LOTRO to be a fun and entertaining game, not because of the IP, but because of it's implementation. This is Turbine's biggest hit and yet it still sucks in the subscription department. What does that say about Turbine's ability to make a fun game that has mass appeal. Even EQ2 beats out this game with it's larger market share. The IP alone should have been a blockbuster. The problem is that they grossly overestimated Turbine's abilties to produce a stellar game.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
But, maybe the expansion will pull those numbers back up
Later
From the other thread on that sites accuracy:
From reading the site's Analysis and Conclusions area you will find this excerpt:
A – This indicates that the vast majority of the data points shown come from either official announcements by the companies involved or reliable inside sources. The numbers can be considered reliable, although a few of the data points may be incorrect.
B – This indicates that while some of the data points shown may be official, a substantial number come from press articles, unproven inside sources, or other indirect means. The numbers may not be exact for the MMOG in question, but are certainly in the ballpark.
C – This indicates that most or all of the data points provided are merely industry “best guesses” or are otherwise questionable. Usually, I will not chart MMOGs that rate C or lower. Their numbers should be taken with a large grain of salt.
D – This indicates that no data is available for this game at this time, but I expect to get something chart-worthy on it in the future.
(Highlights added for emphasis)
So unless you look at the game with the letter grade in mind... it's kinda pointless to compare. It all comes down to trust. Do you trust that Sir Bruce is indeed basing his numbers off "inside" sources? How reliable are those sources? What is used to validate who they say they are?
I'm not sold that the information is all that accurate... but it's about all the MMO world has to go on, so it is what it is. There is another site doing the same thing... but I forget it's address now, and it's not really important for this discussion anyway.
Just as an FYI I listed a few of the MMOs and their cooresponding letter grade... as well as last date for data. A person really has to take all that in mind when looking at this kind of data.
Ultima Online - Accuracy: A - Dec. 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 3
Everquest - Accuracy: B - Jan. 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 1
Asheron's Call - Accuracy: B - Feb. 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 1
Anarchy Online - Accuracy: B - Dec. 2005 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 0
DAoC - Accuracy: C - March 2008 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 5
WW2 Online - Accuracy: A - July 2005 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 0
Tibia - Accuracy: A - March 2008 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 15
FFXI Online - Accuracy: B - Oct. 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 3
EvE Online - Accuracy: A - April 2008 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 16
Star Wars Galaxies - Accuracy: C - Oct. 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 1
COH / Villians - Accuracy: A - Dec. 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 4
Dofus - Accuracy: A - April 2008 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 16
Everquest 2 - Accuracy: B - Jan. 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 1
Matrix Online - Accuracy: B - May 2006 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 0
D&D Online - Accuracy: B - Feb. 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 2
Vanguard - Accuracy: C - May 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 3
LoTRO - Accuracy: B - Dec. 2007 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 3
Tabula Rasa - Accuracy: C - March 2008 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 2
World of Warcraft - Accuracy: A - Jan. 2008 - # of DATA points since Jan. 2007 : 6
So, what does all that gibberish above mean?
It means that there is a lot of guesswork going on. There are 3 or 4 MMOs that look like they are reliable (They have an A accuracy rating AND have frequent data points - highlighted above). Most of the others... well, decide for yourself. You can download the spreadsheet and analyze the numbers for yourself if you want (that's what I did).
In the end, I find the overall MMO genre as a whole very interesting in respect to examining the subscription/subscriber #'s. As far as the reliability of the numbers... well that's the great part about this discussion... everyone can form their own opinion.
Edit: made the font size a bit bigger... it was really small.
and you smoke weed because all your friends do?
peer pressure, peer pressure, peer pressure, peer pressure.
Plus those numbers are ridiculously overrated..
stellar game? its the HIGHEST rating on this site (rightfully so)
Pc mmo of the year, PC game of the year, get OVER yourself.
and even if there was only 1000 players, as long as i had five 2 group with id still have more fun then some other mmos out there.
considering the fact that my LOTRO server is constantly seeing new players join, and old players come back, I can't say the game is losing players. Seems to be growing rapidly.
Interesting
So far this data is the most reliable for numbers. And a shrinking population is not a good sign is my belief...not unless we see a rise again..
Since only two reports have included LOTRO so far, this could be "lulls" as players wait for more content...as that has seemed to slow down..
But, as I stated, the expansion should see a rise in numbers...as some of the changes coming look interesting...more classes, changes to the UI...all good stuff..
Good luck Turbine..
Interesting
I wouldn't doubt it. Probably more people trying V out now that it has been out for a while, and has had some work done to it.I've noticed a lot of ex-wow players lately starting up LOTRO. People are getting tired of it, and looking for other games.
and you smoke weed because all your friends do?
peer pressure, peer pressure, peer pressure, peer pressure.
Plus those numbers are ridiculously overrated..
stellar game? its the HIGHEST rating on this site (rightfully so)
Pc mmo of the year, PC game of the year, get OVER yourself.
and even if there was only 1000 players, as long as i had five 2 group with id still have more fun then some other mmos out there.
What exactly does peer pressure have to do with people finding one game more enjoyable than another, pointless argument.Please show me proof that those numbers are ridiculously overrated, other than your bloated opinion.
Highest ranking on this site I'm afraid is no indication at all. Subscription numbers tell me quite clearly which games are more likely to be fun as long as the game type fits my play style. This site is not at all indicative of the casual community by it's very nature. WoW is more casual friendly and therefore has a much greater number of casual players than LOTRO, why, because we find it to be fun and rewarding and better suited to our play style among other reasons to be sure.
You need to get over yourself bub. All kinds of games get those nifty little PC game of the year titles at one point or another, doesn't mean crap, even SWG got all kinds of praise when it released and it was pretty crappy before the revamp. DAoC, EQ2, CoH/CoV have gotten all kinds of rewards too and they're still niche games with very little mass appeal. Are you just upset that more people don't like the games you like?
Bottom line, if someone is thinking about playing LOTRO, they should take these kinds of things into consideration, otherwise they could me losing out on money to a game some rabid fans think is the best thing since sliced bread when the majority of MMO players certainly do not.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
and you smoke weed because all your friends do?
peer pressure, peer pressure, peer pressure, peer pressure.
Plus those numbers are ridiculously overrated..
stellar game? its the HIGHEST rating on this site (rightfully so)
Pc mmo of the year, PC game of the year, get OVER yourself.
and even if there was only 1000 players, as long as i had five 2 group with id still have more fun then some other mmos out there.
What exactly does peer pressure have to do with people finding one game more enjoyable than another, pointless argument.Please show me proof that those numbers are ridiculously overrated, other than your bloated opinion.
Highest ranking on this site I'm afraid is no indication at all. Subscription numbers tell me quite clearly which games are more likely to be fun as long as the game type fits my play style. This site is not at all indicative of the casual community by it's very nature. WoW is more casual friendly and therefore has a much greater number of casual players than LOTRO, why, because we find it to be fun and rewarding and better suited to our play style among other reasons to be sure.
You need to get over yourself bub. All kinds of games get those nifty little PC game of the year titles at one point or another, doesn't mean crap, even SWG got all kinds of praise when it released and it was pretty crappy before the revamp. DAoC, EQ2, CoH/CoV have gotten all kinds of rewards too and they're still niche games with very little mass appeal. Are you just upset that more people don't like the games you like?
Bottom line, if someone is thinking about playing LOTRO, they should take these kinds of things into consideration, otherwise they could me losing out on money to a game some rabid fans think is the best thing since sliced bread when the majority of MMO players certainly do not.
You are bashing LOTRo supporters saying all they have aired are their own views. The ammo you used to bash them is your own views. Interesting.
and you smoke weed because all your friends do?
peer pressure, peer pressure, peer pressure, peer pressure.
Plus those numbers are ridiculously overrated..
stellar game? its the HIGHEST rating on this site (rightfully so)
Pc mmo of the year, PC game of the year, get OVER yourself.
and even if there was only 1000 players, as long as i had five 2 group with id still have more fun then some other mmos out there.
What exactly does peer pressure have to do with people finding one game more enjoyable than another, pointless argument.Please show me proof that those numbers are ridiculously overrated, other than your bloated opinion.
Highest ranking on this site I'm afraid is no indication at all. Subscription numbers tell me quite clearly which games are more likely to be fun as long as the game type fits my play style. This site is not at all indicative of the casual community by it's very nature. WoW is more casual friendly and therefore has a much greater number of casual players than LOTRO, why, because we find it to be fun and rewarding and better suited to our play style among other reasons to be sure.
You need to get over yourself bub. All kinds of games get those nifty little PC game of the year titles at one point or another, doesn't mean crap, even SWG got all kinds of praise when it released and it was pretty crappy before the revamp. DAoC, EQ2, CoH/CoV have gotten all kinds of rewards too and they're still niche games with very little mass appeal. Are you just upset that more people don't like the games you like?
Bottom line, if someone is thinking about playing LOTRO, they should take these kinds of things into consideration, otherwise they could me losing out on money to a game some rabid fans think is the best thing since sliced bread when the majority of MMO players certainly do not.
Wrong.
Now take a deep breath.
Listen
Do you not see the same forums that I see?
The same questions, which get the same answer? have you not been victim to the same false judgement that I have displayed in my younger years? or are you unique to this situation?
You know a VAST majority of players base their subscribing to a game on what OTHER people think. some kids smoke weed for personal reasons, others do it because their peers think its cool
With WOW, you are talking about Blizzard, a gaming mega company. A gaming developers empire and at the head of it is WOW.
Reasons people chose wow:
-Initial routine interest
-Developed by Blizzard (Creators of excellent games such as starcraft, diablo 1 and 2)
-Word of Mouth
Now its to the point where the game is almost losing its luster, but that rabid fan base is still holding on until its completely outdated. a game might not take over wow for another 2-3 years till its entirely IN THE CAN.
Why? because people have an emtional investment in the game, and those people are ussually first time mmo'ers, and i rememebr my first mmo, i never wanted it to end, but eventually it did.
wow catered to those people and won, and the ONLY reason they got all those subcribers is they : first had a track record of making good games, so people LOOKED at the mmo, people who didnt even know what an mmo was before WOW, and then they think 'wow this genre is pretty cool,' so than they attached to it like they would a cute girl. THEN they told there buddies and there buddies was like 'dude she got any friends?' haha just f'n arond.
heres the point: the only thing that will take WOW over is a much MUCH hotter girl (put in perspective) with a ticket to the bahamas, and dinner on the table..
Lotro is hotter, but not by much, but overall it is CLEARLY the better game, is it worth buying? if you wanted a polished formula with the same gameplay your used to it, but if i had to choose between this or wow, its definitely this.
As far as my 'overrated' statement, I was referring to the fact that the number of people that subscrbe to a game is overrated, because clearly there are some games in the videogame market that SALE high, but just because your the best selling game ever.....does that make you the best? because if thats the case then i would have to switch my top pick from final fantasy 7 to halo 3 or grand theft auto. and those are unique revolutionary games, but better than final fantasy 7?
YOU WOULD HAVE TO BE OUT OF YOUR MIND.
CLOUD STRIFE IS THE MAN
P'c
Vanguard players say the same thing...Interesting
I wouldn't doubt it. Probably more people trying V out now that it has been out for a while, and has had some work done to it.I've noticed a lot of ex-wow players lately starting up LOTRO. People are getting tired of it, and looking for other games.
I'm in that category. I decided to give Vanguard a try recently to see how it's coming along... and because it's one that I hadn't really checked out beyond beta.
I *did* see a fairly healthy number of low level players - I mean, in a game world that vast, there's going to be alot of space between regardless.. but I crossed paths and even shared mobs (read: competed for) a few times.
I think it has alot of promise. There's alot there to do and learn. It has some very interesting environments and some rather interesting little "touches". The whole "3 Spheres" concept is just a fancy way of packaging what is already in many games... well the Adventuring and Crafting part anyway... the Diplomacy aspect is rather new in my experience; I wasn't that taken with it, personally.
Unfortunately, no matter how good or polished it might become with time, its history is going to create an ever uphill battle for it, I think. Same with Matrix Online, same with post NGE/CU SWG it would seem.
In the end... I don't know bout numbers.. .but I do know that I see people literally everywhere I go now in LoTRO. Always people in OOC or LFF, or what-not. They're not wall-to-wall, thankfully.. But the game is active as it's ever been in my experience.
As far as how a game is a rehash of all that's come before it.. I think it breaks down to two things:
1. Basic Mechanics
2. Implementation
3. Elusive sense of "what players want"
#1 The basic mechanics part can be seen in pretty much any game genre. Most all FPSs will have many basic game mechanics in common. Same with RPGs, same with RTSs, same with Adventure games, and same with MMOs, and so on.
I think the difference comes in #2 - implementation. This seems to be something more nebulous and not so easily "defined". Could almost describe it as how the game "feels".
LoTRO may well have many of the same, or similar, gameplay mechanics to WoW - just as WoW does to those before it and so forth. Arguing who stole what from who is pointless. They all borrow from each other, and always will. In a sense, it boils down to "if it works, why change it?"
That said... WoW bores me to tears - I'm not knocking the game. I acknowledge that it's a polished game and very well-executed. The gameplay, however - the implementation of those core mechanics that are common among MMOs - just doesn't grab me. It feels too "hurried", like despite my efforts to take my time and not level quickly, I am anyway. So many of the game's mechanics seem to conspire to that end. The world design feels "small" to me... very "game like". Again.. not knocking the game.. this is my opinion.
However.. in LoTRO, you have many of the same basic game mechanics as you see in numerous other MMOs - as others have said, Turbine isn't really breaking any new ground - though they are certainly implementing some new twists. I recognize that all too easily. So to me, it has to be something more.
To me, it's the implementation. How the game feels.. how it's designed. While WoW to me feels like a game environment that I'm playing in, LoTRO feels like another world that my character lives in. That's a huge difference for me, especially as I very much prefer the latter.
I don't feel like I'm being pushed along at all in LoTRO. Heck, I'm playing the same character for almost a year, with only a couple months away, and I just hit 35 today. Despite that, there's not a moment of my time online that hasn't been filled doing *something* entertaining. The world feels vast and begging to be explored. To me, LoTRO "feels right" for what I look for in a MMO.
Then there's point #3... Which basically, to me, seems that while many players will say they want "something new" - I don't think many really know what it is exactly that they want. I mean, have you ever asked someone arguing for something new and different to articulate exactly what that is? I have, and many times they can't. I don't think it's so much a longing for "new and different" than it is boredom, or becoming jaded, with the "old and familiar".
In many cases, I've seen games come out that try and push the envelope, or go against the typical mechanics of their given genre - only to be met with hostility by players, who then want the game to be more like the games they've been playing, even when they were those looking for "something new".
So I don't know... I think it's one of those "you don't know what you want, but you'll know it when you see it" type things.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops