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It just keeps getting worse. 10 man Arthas and Malygos
Washo
Member Posts: 34
au.pc.gamespy.com/pc/world-of-warcraft-wrath-of-the-lich-king/872778p3.html
Kaplan believes that having Naxxramas as a new 10- and 25-man introductory raid serves a few functions for Wrath of the Lich King. First, it lets the vast bulk of players experience what many believe are some of the best raid encounters Blizzard ever produced. Finally, it serves as the start of the new "two-tier" raiding system. Going forward, all raid dungeons will have both 10- and 25-man versions with their separate itemization lists and progression tracks. There will be no attunement requirements nor will getting into a 25-man raid be dependent on any 10-man raiding.
There will be a 25 man and 10 man Naxxramas. I was all for lvl 80 Naxx since it fits in with the game story but 10 man Naxx?
Now you can go through and defeat two of the most powerful warcraft characters in 10 mans, Arthas/Lich King and Malygos.
I'm all for have two seperate tiers for raiding but at least give up different content or at least aq20/40 (even though they were horrible instances). Having the same bosses in 10 mans and 25 mans is just plain stupid.
Have instances for the raiders with harder bosses and better loot and instances for casuals but the tier gear is X.5 whereas the hardcore content will be X.0 gear (ie hardcore instance has tier 8 and the more casual tier has 7.5).
Once casual guilds have finished the casual instance they can have a shot at the hardcore instance or move onto the next X.5 instance. Hardcore raiders can do the casual 25mans on days off on if they feel like it.
But having the same boss as a 10 man and 25 man instance just ruins the story. And no, Kael 5 man is not the same. The 5 man Kael is him after his defeat in Tempest Keep. Lvl 80 Naxxramas fits in the story because it has moved back to Northrend and will not exist as a 40 man instance anymore.
Comments
Now I hope I can finally play something really challenging with a small group (or relatively small, 9 others besides me). So challenging that even the small group would require really good coordination, strategy, and that every individual would have to be skilled. That's the kind of gaming I want.
Thing is blizzard cannot win.. ppl complain about 25man raids at end games... so blizzard give the 10man option and yet they still complain.
Blizzard could develope the cure for cancer and ppl would complain.
Maybe Blizzard needs to get more creative and stop thinking just Raiding is the only way for end game content? Why not make single group encounters that are just as difficult yet just as rewarding as a 40 man raid?
Course it all boils down to weather or not one enjoys raiding (work) or not.
Blizz is too stupid to make real world PvP fun and/or have ANY objective whatsoever, and real world PvP is really where you can fight in force. Besides 40 mans. So, where are the people who are sick of killing "super powerful" bosses with only 10 people going to get their fix? Not WoW. 25 man is the perfect balance, it requires alot of people yes but it gives you the sense of power, more than just 10 people. 40 is a bit much, maybe not everyone can attend, but if you make a 40 man you should design it so technically it could be completed by, say, 30 people, but if you did have 40 it'd be much faster. Oh well. Blizz is bowing to the casuals, no surprise.
And I heard pure oxygen is pretty good at fighting some cancers (coffee's post). Blizz didn't think of that! Hah!
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A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
Do we know each dungeon is going to have duplicate characters to defeat or is that just an assumption?
Dradiin WoW is a MMO not a single player RPG, also how do you balance an encounter so that a holy priest and a feral druid can complete it? its impossible unless they tailer the instance for all classes and specs.. so that would be over 30 different variants.
Ascension08 WoW is a PvE game, also we are getting the new non instance PVP zone in WoltK, also WoW does not bow to the elitest gamers.. we have EQ2 and VG for that.
Dradiin WoW is a MMO not a single player RPG, also how do you balance an encounter so that a holy priest and a feral druid can complete it? its impossible unless they tailer the instance for all classes and specs.. so that would be over 30 different variants.
That explains why I can level every class from 1-70 solo, and buy all my shit from the AH, therefore not needing to interact with anybody at all.
Ascension08 WoW is a PvE game, also we are getting the new non instance PVP zone in WoltK, also WoW does not bow to the elitest gamers.. we have EQ2 and VG for that.
Funny how all the great gear is PvP and raid related. Oh, and now you can even pay extra to play in cash "e-sport" tournaments. Sounds pretty elitist to me.
Dradiin WoW is a MMO not a single player RPG, also how do you balance an encounter so that a holy priest and a feral druid can complete it? its impossible unless they tailer the instance for all classes and specs.. so that would be over 30 different variants.
That explains why I can level every class from 1-70 solo, and buy all my shit from the AH, therefore not needing to interact with anybody at all.
Can you complete all the content solo? No. Can you play and have fun on your own? yes .... that is why millions play WoW... they have a choice.
Ascension08 WoW is a PvE game, also we are getting the new non instance PVP zone in WoltK, also WoW does not bow to the elitest gamers.. we have EQ2 and VG for that.
Funny how all the great gear is PvP and raid related. Oh, and now you can even pay extra to play in cash "e-sport" tournaments. Sounds pretty elitist to me.
Well you cant just give it out free.. where is the challenge in that? you can get good gear from 5mans and Honor... if a player cannot run with 4 others or join a battle then they have no right to anything other than poor greens at best.
Any way I am all out of troll food now.. so /shoo
This is one of the most positive steps forward Blizzard has taken in some time.
Blind-hatred for WoW and Blizzard have blinded far too many.
Now I don't think WotLK is going to be as crazy and popular as Burning Crusade was, but anyone who thinks it's not going to be a big deal and that WoW's subscription numbers will continue to rise is just... denying reality.
I'm super hyped for WAR and Spellborn but that doesn't mean I can't still be excited for a VERY positive step forward in the future of WoW.
Funny how people say Blizzard is stupid or clueless because of this announcement. I don't know. A company that has successfully dominated the MMO (if not video gaming) world for the last few years deserve some slack.
It's a good idea. Everyone gets what they want. Casuals get access and the hardcore still have their tough instances. And for the small minority of hardcores that are complaining (and I think most are liking the changes), well, I think Blizzard doesn't mind if they leave.
Funny that you should suggest this, when it's largely what they've been doing all along. This is exactly what they are trying to get away from. The only problem I see here is that everyone is assuming 10-man is easier than 25-man, which is most likely not true. Casuals are tired of being treated like second-rate players, even though they pay just as much as the hardcore. Blizzard wants to level the playing field, and allow epic gear across all forms of gameplay. If anything, this is long overdue.
Too little, too late.
Something like this should have been done two years ago. Then it would mean something. Now when the players' frustration is boiling over and new games are on the horizon Bliz finally decides to do something. Meh, if it weren't for WAR and its emphasis on casual players we'd probably still be grinding reps for uber raids so uber Blizes pet uber guilds can grow their e-peen on our expense, just like for the past 3 years. As I said, plenty of new games on the horizon.
Bliz has pissed me off too much with its disdain of casuals (amongst many other things) and all the steps it is doing recently to remedy this are... too little to late. I smell greed and hypocrisy, rather than a genuine wish to make the game more enjoyable instead of addictive. Sorry Bliz. Bye.
OMG - It baffles me!!!
In a game where they have made SOOOO MUCH MONEY and ushered in A WHOLE NEW GENERATION OF GAMERS...
You guys are discussing the merits of NOT ONE BUT TWO ITERATIONS OF A RE-HASHED INSTANCE!!!! Give me a break.
NAXX already HAS BEEN in the game.. it ALREADY WAS a 40 man raid - PROBABLY THE COOLEST ONE THEY DESIGNED... The really hardcore players HAVE ALREADY CLEARED IT...
This is what you are looking forward to?
OMG - It baffles me!!!
In a game where they have made SOOOO MUCH MONEY and ushered in A WHOLE NEW GENERATION OF GAMERS...
You guys are discussing the merits of NOT ONE BUT TWO ITERATIONS OF A RE-HASHED INSTANCE!!!! Give me a break.
NAXX already HAS BEEN in the game.. it ALREADY WAS a 40 man raid - PROBABLY THE COOLEST ONE THEY DESIGNED... The really hardcore players HAVE ALREADY CLEARED IT...
This is what you are looking forward to?
Very few guilds cleared max.. and a tiny percentage easily less than 0.01% of WoW players have ever been to naxx.. so bringing it back is a possitive move.. it will be tweaked as is goona be a 10man dungeon... and is an important part of the lich king lore.
Also all this money every 1 thinks blizzards makes the majority goes to Vivendie.. what is left is split between WoW, SC2 and Blizzards top secret game.
OMG - It baffles me!!!
In a game where they have made SOOOO MUCH MONEY and ushered in A WHOLE NEW GENERATION OF GAMERS...
You guys are discussing the merits of NOT ONE BUT TWO ITERATIONS OF A RE-HASHED INSTANCE!!!! Give me a break.
NAXX already HAS BEEN in the game.. it ALREADY WAS a 40 man raid - PROBABLY THE COOLEST ONE THEY DESIGNED... The really hardcore players HAVE ALREADY CLEARED IT...
This is what you are looking forward to?
When you boil down MMOs, we are all just looking for that magic feeling we experienced in our first online game. Naxx was a good dungeon that far to many people missed out on. Reintroducing it is a good move as new people will get to enjoy it and those "ubers" who already did it will see it as nothing much more than a speed bump to the next content.
To those complaining about Blizzard only catering to the hardcore are you serious? There are more ways to get items in WoW than any other game I know of without raiding. 5 Man dungeons, 5 man Heroics, Arenas by season, Battlegrounds/honor, faction/reputation, Crafting and how every many variations of the badge system. Even 10 man raids are very casual friendly. Blizzard has been evening the playing field for all styles of gameplay for some time now. It is still a work in progress formula wise, but there is plenty of opportunities for everyone.
However, that's not to say that the MMO industry needs ONLY WoW. On the contrary, it needs competition. Its just that WoW does a very good job as an players first fantasy based MMO.
Maybe Anarchy Online will be turned around later this year to be a more popular sci-fi version of a players first MMO. Who knows.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
I think this is a good idea. Of course the unemployed elitists who still live with their mothers and have no friends at all hate it. They've made WoW their job, and therefore hate the fact that other people might enjoy this game as a- OH MY GOD! - a game.
For the serious players, both casual and hardcore, this is a good step. For the casual players, which is what a huge chunk of WoW's playerbase is made up of, they have the opportunity to attempt the 25 man version, or they can run it as a 10 man. For the seriously hardcore, they can go straight to the 25 man and put the 10-man on farm (assuming you could complete both during the week). I agree with what was said earlier about one not being easier than the other. They will probably still be the same difficulty, just tailored for a different number of players.
Of course there is also the loot system. Those running the 10 mans will have a chance at good gear, but those running the 25 mans will still have better. Think of it this way, while the casual 10-manner is running around in his Tier 8.5, you're still better geared with your Tier 9.
I think this is great, it will offer something for everyone. And if anyone is worried about major bosses going down in 10-mans, just remember that most single player RPGs pit you against the final boss with 3-4 characters! Remember in the original Final Fantasy XI game, you faced the Shadow Lord as a 5-man.
They are not ruining the game, so it doesn't "just keep getting worse." If the 10-man version of a raid bothers you so much, then simply don't do it, ignore it and pretend it's not there. That's what the 25 man is for. No one ever said you had to ever even step foot in the 10-man version. Of course if it's the fact of other players other than yourself getting to actually see content and experience the game, then it's time to shutdown the computer and go outside. Walk down the street a little bit, you might even see another person! I know it may be a little hard to socialize, but it would do some good.
Either way, I think this is great, it's an awesome opportunity for the casuals to experience content while still keeping the hardcore experience intact. As a game developer myself, who is getting interested in one day down the road working on an MMO, this strategy is exciting and I will of course take note of this. If I made an MMO, I would want all walks of players to be satisfied and enjoy the game.
The two versions is a good idea in my opinion. Woot! for 10-man raids! I might even do one some day. Personally, I will be doing the 25-mans.
Sorry but it's just silly to keep catering to the 5% of the people that actually see the end raids. Enjoy the mass zergs of yester-year while you can because they will slowly disappear and be replaced with ways to be rewarded in smaller groups and solo play for the "masses".
Personally I find it laughable that someone thinks it takes 25+ people to make a encounter challenging.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
The problem with the theory that everything will eventually get boiled down to solo or single group content is that is does limit what developers can design without risking mandates on the players. For example: does your encounter have poison that needs to be removed? Then you mandate one class needs that ability which in essence can restrict other classes options to get invited or involved and it only gets worse if that is a solo encounter. Some things just become impossible or not very viable in solo or small groups.
Nothing wrong with small and solo group content, but it is much easier the smaller the groups are. The more people you add the more mechanics and tools the devs have at their disposal to throw against players, because there is not only room for every class, but room for multiples. Love it or hate it, that is just the reality of how things in current MMOs can be built.
I like Blizzards attempt to capture many styles of play and offer multiple avenues for people to play. I may not like all of them, but that isn't what is intended. Just that there is enough of some things to find enjoyable. I hope more companies follow suit in their design theories.
I don't know about the rest but I kinda felt cheated out of experiencing the old world content once BC hit. I wasn't even level 40 when BC launched, and suddenly all anyone wanted to do was the 70 stuff. Great raids like Naxx and BWL were easily forgotten and I never even got to do them. Why doesn't Blizz add only one or two "new" raids but instead give the old world raids some purpose? It seems like that's what they're doing with Naxx, and that's the only positive I can see out of all this. Whether it's 10 man or 25 man.
And I'm not talking about going in and soloing them or doing em with some friends once you're 70. I mean actually wanting to do them because it'll help you achieve a goal.
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A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
Like I said above, look at all the single player RPGs where you take down the final boss with 3-4 people.
10 seems just fine to me. I mean I love 25-man raids, but let's be honest, how often are they cancelled due to someone not being able to show up for whatever reason? 10-man is perfect and to be honest I consider myself lucky that I actually have 25 people in my guild to run 25-mans. It's funny though, despite the fact that we all know each other and work well together, our Kara/ZA 10-man groups always have gone the smoothest.
All I know is that I would rather group with people that choose to, than those who are just working it off. This way I can expect even some fun on top of loot and xp.
Oh didle didle, mucus and the spittle...
You know I was in a raid guild for 2.5 years of my 2.8 years of WOW. 3 accounts later(Just bought a new WOW game with expansion.) All I can say is Screw the raiders!
I play the games I play now for FUN.. Not to have huge time commitments that actually take away from my Real Life. I am glad Blizzard is giving the casual player its say. Considering the majority of WOW players are casual.
i kind of dont get it. I'm as casual as they come, it took me 2 years to get to 70 (i never even was 60 when the level cap was 60), i play twice a week, and yet i raid, getting 25 people together is not all that tough.
Well, without a guild it would be tough, but im in a guild where everyone realizes RL comes first, and we just play at our own pace; we aren't uber.
I guess i cant complain because they aren't getting rid of 25 mans, just adding an additional 10 man.
As long as 25 mans are available, and offer some rewards you cant get anywhere else (which is one reason they are so fun) i'll be happy
Just saying that from my experience 25 mans are much more fun than 10 mans, i even wish there were still 40 mans (not that i ever did one). The teamwork and strategy with so many of your friends is just amazing.
Say what you want but casuals will never get the chance to expirience "the old" BWL and as for things geting easyer, well, did you see howmany heroes in full epics is runing around?!?! It was only a matter of time before things get easyer and safer.
Imagine, what kind of a world would it be where there was constat battle, never ending, never showing signs of weaknes, it would be HELL!!
edit
War is Hell.