I think this is a brilliant idea tbh. 10 mans will be more flexible for casual players, casual guilds, and will help fill in the loot for players who can't get upgrades for their spec from other places. The 25 mans will still be tons of fun, give the best loot, and be the main progression chain, but now we aren't as limited to schedules or the like. Looking forward to raiding naxx with my guild with 25 people, then having our group go into the 10 man version the next day off the raid schedule, and get more loot =D
This is exactly what I'm saying, the 25 man raids will still exist with better loot than all of the 10 man dungeons. I don't see how this affects the hardcore player at all. They still get to join a bigger party, down harder versions of bosses, and get better loot. What other reasons are there to be a hardcore pve player in wow? It's not required to do well in pvp anymore, and it takes a lot of time. I personally hated putting in 15-20 hours a week in BWL, MC, and AQ40 in hopes of good drops. That's why it's good that Blizzard is releasing content for everyone so they can at least experience the content without needing the best of loot. It seriously comes down to the fact that hardcore players don't want other people seeing the content they see, which is ridiculous seeing as it's just a video game.
And another thing, ever since Blizz lowered the raid capacity, a lot of people have been out of a job really causing lots of people to quit. This game wasn't created casually, so why should It should it change to casual when most people i know love the old way? If you want casual play, go play Guild Wars or something...WoW wasnt meant for slow people.
You are sadly mistaken if you think Guild Wars is meant for slow people. The creativeness that is required in pve (before Ursan that is) and pvp is so much more than WoW pve could ever hope for. A noob in Guild Wars given the best skill bar will still not run it properly. Give some retard a character with good gear in WoW, he or she would be considered a good player by most because that game is so gear dependent.
Maybe Blizzard is trying to help the hardcores to save them from their self-destructive tendencies. I can see why Blizzard has moved focus from the hardcore crowd to the casual, thats where the big money is. I did see a statement that someone made about casuals going from one game to another more frequently than hardcore players. I disagree.....seems to me the hardcore chew through new content way too fast and quickly become bored and move on, leaving the casuals behind who still play for years. Now, there is always a diehard crowd in every game, who play it for 5, 6, or more years, way beyond any practical reason, and they are loyal, but small in number. Most large developers are now avoiding the niche markets, those who love large scale raiding, or FFA PVP w/looting because that's not where the money is.
You have hit the nail on the head here Kyleran. Players like Washo are a little too wrapped up in their feelings of superiority to understand what they are asking for (although it's clear he has other personality issues beyond that). They assume everybody else out there doesn't know what it's like to be 'elite' like him. In fact, there are countless players out there, me included, that have done the hardcore raid grind for years on end (before WoW even came on the market). I have no intention of go back to that. I like to play mmorpg's, but if they want my money they need to offer something fun for me to do.
And that's what it comes down to in WoW, money. It's all of those 'casuals' occasionally logging on and still paying their monthly fee who keep the development teams funded to make more content for the small population of players that make it that far. If anything, hardcore players should be screaming for WoW to do things to keep casuals around and paying their money. Otherwise the populations crash and you're left with a handful of players. When you only have a population of 50k, how is that going to fund much in the way of future development? How is that going to fund the latest upgrades for server hardware? How is that going to fund tech support that is there solving problems in the middle of the night before they affect the servers? It doesn't.
If Washo got the perfect game that he wanted, he'd be there playing it with 50k other people. And he'd also be bitching about how it's dying and there's no new content and the servers are always crashing, and so on and so on....just like so many other mmorpgs that have bitten the dust. I'm just glad blizzard doesn't listen to people like that.
10 man Arthas? Thats a bloody joke...If 25 measly mortals can take down Illidan (according to Blizz apparently they can) how can 10 measly mortals defeat a demi-god....? Blizz seriously needs to stop screwing up their once-good game. 40 man raids is where it was at back before the cursed expansion.
Chill out.. Blizzard have said they are not yet sure if a 10man raid will get to fight arthus.. instead they are playing around with the idea that a 10man gets to see arthus but arthus does not stay to fight, instead "I have more pressing engagments than you mortals, minnion take care of these pests" you fight one his minions.. that way a 10man group gets to see arthus but cannot defeat him.
Sounds a like a good solution.. every 1 gets to see the content.
OP: first off, tone done your swearing. It is not permitted and it is going on my nerves, I am sure you can put your point across without insults or bad words, savy?
Second, my numbers were just example, but let's go with yours. so 30% has seen Hyjal? and Burning Crusade has been out for oh, 18 months? And you do not find anything strange in that?
Why not?
I mean Hyjal is the pinnacle of Content, or almost, and still only less than 1/3 has SEEN that content AFTER 18 MONTHS!
Battle for mount Hyjal is not the top tier of raiding (pre 2.4). Black Temple was and that has only been out for 12 months. And its not like you could just waltz straight into Hyjal could you? Having to down Vashj and Kael pre-nerfs was not an easy thing to do. So instead of saying that Hyjal has been out for 18 months its only been available as a raid instance since late May when Nihilium downed Kael. I mean, its not like people had to level up to 70, get kara attuned, clear kara, clear the very buggy Gruul. Then down a Magtheridon 100 times harder than he is now, clear all of SSC and then clear all of TK including pre nerf bosses to get into Hyjal is it now? Remember when SSC and TK had attunements and required you to have downed Nightbane, Magtheridon and Gruul just to enter those instances?
So get your facts right.
And its not like Rage Winterchill, Anetheron, Kaz'rogal are hard are they? Even Azgalor is easy. Only Archimonde takes any degree of coordination to down. Before attunements were removed about 15% of people were hyjal/bt attuned and that had been steadily increasing. In a few weeks of 2.4 we've seen another 700,000 people progress into Hyjal and thats just Euro/North America. Who knows how many in the Asian countries are progressing. And lets face it, North Americans are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay behind the Euros. All the top guilds in the world are European. A USA guild has not a major end-of-the-instance boss world first since ... Elitist Jerks on Nef. Yup, thats right. No end boss for 3 years for America. I would say that around 50% of Euro raiders (excluding people only PvP which wotjutsu still picks up) have down at least one boss in Hyjal.
The problem is that people are so bad at this game that instead of putting in some effort and getting better all you do is whine, cry, insult raiders and DEMAND Blizzard make content so simple stupid that even terribads like most of the people in this thread can clear. I used to play games on my gameboy harder than most of the content in WoW. Well, enjoy your simple stupid content. I'll do something else with my time.
p.s. I didn't read the rest of your post because if you don't read mine I'm not going to read yours.
Oh, and 86% of people have seen at least High King Maulgar down. Gruul's lair is a 25 man instance so whats this about 25 mans being SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HARD? Over 62% have been/are in SSC. Take away PvP'ers and people who quit the game a long time ago and the % of active raiders in SSC would be much much higher.
So much for your rubbish stories that getting 25 people together is impossible.
I love this idea, this makes it easier to just go with close friends and have ALOT more fun, reminds me of the first months of KZ where our grp was pretty much friends from outside of the game and it went beautifully.
So i'm welcoming this change with open arms.
Haters of this change, remember you still get better loot from 25-man version so please.... Some does it for the gear, others for the excitement and fun.
You have hit the nail on the head here Kyleran. Players like Washo are a little too wrapped up in their feelings of superiority to understand what they are asking for (although it's clear he has other personality issues beyond that). They assume everybody else out there doesn't know what it's like to be 'elite' like him. In fact, there are countless players out there, me included, that have done the hardcore raid grind for years on end (before WoW even came on the market). I have no intention of go back to that. I like to play mmorpg's, but if they want my money they need to offer something fun for me to do.
And what puts you into a position to judge me and make insults about my personality, lifestyle and stupid stories about me playing games with 50,000 subscribers?
<Mod edit> where do you think most of Blizzard's devs come from? Thats right - Everquest.
Maybe if you spent less time insulting "hardcore raiders" and more time working on being better you would actually get to see something other than Kara. But nope, you'd rather just sit there and make personal insults about non WoW related stuff and gross generalisations than getting off your butt and putting some effort in. If I went and joined my local sporting team, even though its not exactly a big time professional league, I would still be expected to put in 100% effort by my team mates. I would be expected to come to training and work as a team even though ITS JUST A GAME. If my team puts no effort in and plays against a team that does put effort into the game, we would lose quite badly. Should I turn around and say "I pay the same fee to play in this league and its unfair the opposition team is better because they put more effort in." You'd be laughed at for being a whiny, cry-baby idiot. p.s. I also didn't bother reading all your post because if you don't read mine I'm not going to read yours.
Washo, are you realy 30 years old? I mean, I know of some people who are 30 and beyond that sound like you, but they not knowz how to use the internetz and have troublez with finding the ON switch...
Heres a news flash for you, genious, where do you think most of Blizzard's devs come from? Thats right - Everquest.
Maybe if you spent less time insulting "hardcore raiders" and more time working on being better you would actually get to see something other than Kara. But nope, you'd rather just sit there and make personal insults about non WoW related stuff and gross generalisations than getting off your butt and putting some effort in. If I went and joined my local sporting team, even though its not exactly a big time professional league, I would still be expected to put in 100% effort by my team mates. I would be expected to come to training and work as a team even though ITS JUST A GAME. If my team puts no effort in and plays against a team that does put effort into the game, we would lose quite badly. Should I turn around and say "I pay the same fee to play in this league and its unfair the opposition team is better because they put more effort in." You'd be laughed at for being a whiny, cry-baby idiot. p.s. I also didn't bother reading all your post because if you don't read mine I'm not going to read yours.
I read this post and laughed a little. First off you insulted the person you quoted not knowing a single thing about them or their accomplishments in WoW (as if they really mean anything). And really, being good at a game like WoW doesn't require any type of skill at all. You have to hit certain buttons at the right time, move your character when needed, and understand the character attributes. You don't even have to understand the talent trees because you can just armory someone elses spec and copy it. The fact is being "better" at WoW is being able to sit down for more hours a day than someone else. I guarantee a huge amount of casual players have the same understanding of the game and it's mechanics as you, they just would rather not sit on their ass all day long gaming. You can't name a single class that can't be played effectively by just hitting a few buttons.
Even though your comparison of WoW to sports makes a little bit of sense, it is far from reality. Sports are completely different from video games and they always will be. Video games are Strictly entertainment for a majority of people and will always stay that way. A majority of gamers play to relax from a tough day at work and or other things. Sports have always been completely skill based. Some people are naturally athletic and understand what to do in a sport, hense the "Skill" aspect that wow lacks. Someone can play sports all of their life and still be bad at it. Someone can play WoW for 30 hours a week get some good loot, and be considered good even if they suck. You can't compare WoW to sports it just doesn't work.
You just need to be a little more open minded. I think it's funny that you can't see other people playing WoW as a form of entertainment rather than being in it to dominate the raids or w.e it is that you consider a hardcore player doing. And another thing, you still haven't explained why 10 man raids in the 25 man format affects your playing style or ruins the game for you. You just seem to insult every other poster for disagreeing with you, and you just seem to be disappointed that you're so called "superiority" in a video game will go away a little bit, even though it really isn't at all.
OP: first off, tone done your swearing. It is not permitted and it is going on my nerves, I am sure you can put your point across without insults or bad words, savy?
Second, my numbers were just example, but let's go with yours. so 30% has seen Hyjal? and Burning Crusade has been out for oh, 18 months? And you do not find anything strange in that?
Why not?
I mean Hyjal is the pinnacle of Content, or almost, and still only less than 1/3 has SEEN that content AFTER 18 MONTHS!
Battle for mount Hyjal is not the top tier of raiding (pre 2.4). Black Temple was and that has only been out for 12 months. And its not like you could just waltz straight into Hyjal could you? Having to down Vashj and Kael pre-nerfs was not an easy thing to do. So instead of saying that Hyjal has been out for 18 months its only been available as a raid instance since late May when Nihilium downed Kael. I mean, its not like people had to level up to 70, get kara attuned, clear kara, clear the very buggy Gruul. Then down a Magtheridon 100 times harder than he is now, clear all of SSC and then clear all of TK including pre nerf bosses to get into Hyjal is it now? Remember when SSC and TK had attunements and required you to have downed Nightbane, Magtheridon and Gruul just to enter those instances?
So get your facts right.
And its not like Rage Winterchill, Anetheron, Kaz'rogal are hard are they? Even Azgalor is easy. Only Archimonde takes any degree of coordination to down. Before attunements were removed about 15% of people were hyjal/bt attuned and that had been steadily increasing. In a few weeks of 2.4 we've seen another 700,000 people progress into Hyjal and thats just Euro/North America. Who knows how many in the Asian countries are progressing. And lets face it, North Americans are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay behind the Euros. All the top guilds in the world are European. A USA guild has not a major end-of-the-instance boss world first since ... Elitist Jerks on Nef. Yup, thats right. No end boss for 3 years for America. I would say that around 50% of Euro raiders (excluding people only PvP which wotjutsu still picks up) have down at least one boss in Hyjal.
The problem is that people are so bad at this game that instead of putting in some effort and getting better all you do is whine, cry, insult raiders and DEMAND Blizzard make content so simple stupid that even terribads like most of the people in this thread can clear. I used to play games on my gameboy harder than most of the content in WoW. Well, enjoy your simple stupid content. I'll do something else with my time.
p.s. I didn't read the rest of your post because if you don't read mine I'm not going to read yours.
Oh, and 86% of people have seen at least High King Maulgar down. Gruul's lair is a 25 man instance so whats this about 25 mans being SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HARD? Over 62% have been/are in SSC. Take away PvP'ers and people who quit the game a long time ago and the % of active raiders in SSC would be much much higher.
So much for your rubbish stories that getting 25 people together is impossible.
fine, then so be it. If you do not want a conversation, then you will not get one.
Have a nice day.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
hey Pappy, I give you a little tip. Download the ace2 addon Geardps, it gives you a score in the items tooltip about how good an item is, it even scales agi and crit value depending on your gear lvl and considers if you are hit capped or not. Also the gem slots are considered if you setup which gems you use for every slot colour. Now you can impress your buddy
Well I'm not talking about 5 mins. I'm talking like giving me 10 seconds to look at the 2 to compare the items and decide. They give you like 3 seconds. You want this roll.......ok goes to..... Like waiting an extra 6 seconds is gonna be making everyone wait. Hell we are gonna be in here raiding for 3 hours. I don't think an extra 12 seconds per boss fight is really gonna slow the whole thing down.
No, but if EVERY single person in your raid took an extra 10-20 seconds, on top of the 10-20 seconds given to decide, for EVERY single piece of loot that drops in Karazhan (10 bosses + chess but excluding the pointless animal boss) it starts to add up when you are working against respawn timers. Now apply that to 25 man raids.
When doing guild runs (progression content with DKP or farmed non DKP stuff) I would always expect people to quickly decide if they want to bid/roll. Quite often I used to pug Karazhan and things would be different. I expected things to go slower and for people to take longer.
On one hand you are being a selfish in holding up a raid because you feel like it. If the 9 other people in the raid are getting frustrated then you're in the wrong raid.
But EVERY single person in the raid CAN take an extra 10 seconds, since we are ALL deciding at the same time. It's not like I look for 10 seconds and then someone else looks. The time doesn't add up at all so it wouldn't matter if there were 10 in the raid or 1000, it would still only take 10 seconds for EVERYONE to look at the item.
Trust me, we do Kara in like 2 hours in 45 minutes, respawns are not an issue.
Decide quickly yes, which is like 5 seconds to decide and few seconds to type /roll. Decide instantly which is the time it takes to see the item and type /roll, no, that's not necessary. I'm not holding anything up. Normally after a boss dies, people need to drink, get rezzed reapply buffs or whatever. While this is happening people can also be looking at the items that dropped and deciding to roll. It's only a couple seconds and no one has ever gotten frustrated with me. Normally I know right away whether I want the item or not because all you have to do is look at the item and if it's mail and you wear cloth, you know instantly you can't use it. The only time I need a bit more time is when it's actually of the right type for me both class wise and spec wise which is maybe 1 out of 10 times or something like that. When that happens I just usually tell the raid leader, "just a sec, I'm still deciding" and then I either roll or I say, nevermind within a couple seconds. It's not a problem for the raids I'm in, it's just that my buddy just assumed that I was like him and knew instantly whether an item was an upgrade or not. No one to my knowledge has ever complained that I take too long to decide.
I see a lot of BS in this thread. There was nothing epic about 40-man raids other than you had to deal with 39 other people. The actual encounters were 95% spank and tank where DPS could just stand in one spot and press a key every 2-3 seconds. You could have 25-30 doing all the work while the rest watched TV or whatever. TBC helped in the sense that a lot of fights now require movement and staying on your toes, otherwise you'll be dead in 2 seconds. Fewer numbers means there is less room for error.
I'm in a 25-man endgame guild and I think these changes are fine. Why should I feel threatened because people are going to see the same content I am? Hell, why should I even care what gear they have? If they can only field 10 raiders, then so what? Just because we can field 15 more raiders doesn't make us any better or superior to them. They pay the same $15 I do, so they have every right to play the game the way they want. Some of the epeeners in this thread need to have it cut down to size.
I believe this is one of the most positive decisions the dev's have taken in WoW. I believe introducing two tier raids will work very well for WoW in particular and MMO's in general (given that many new MMO's try to copy WoW some way or another).
I stopped playing WoW a 1,5 years ago when TBC was introduced and so did my friends. We were all excited that TBC was coming out but some leaked information back then changed our minds. What did we see? The requirements to enter Hyjal....... The fact that Kael Thas was a raid encounter and the fact that Illidan himself was a raid encounter.
Now we were (and are) all working professionals. Our first priority was never this game. Our priorities were towards our professional and social lives and never towards this game. Albeit, we enjoyed WoW very much, had formed a 7 man team constituted by real life friends (friends for 15 years I might add). The fact that we couldnt enjoy some of the content led to our decision to leave the game.
The Battle of Mount Hyjal, an encounter which we all enjoyed very much in Warcraft 3 was basically inaccesible to us because of time constraints and the fact that we simply couldnt go into a raiding guild and program at least 2-3 of our night's into raiding. It simply wasn't worth it given that we didn't have the time for it, or to put it in better words, were not willing to dedicate such an amount of our free time into this. The time consumed into simply organizing 25-35 people (not to mention 40-50) was just too much.
Now this change comes along. What this means is that 5 friends can come in and by simply adding five more you can go in and experience the content. Managing a 10 man unit is much easier ( and less time consuming) than going the other way around. Not only that but finding 5 people who are on the same page as you (limited time) is much easier than finding 30 more. And if you get a group going then you can go at your own pace and finish things. While one can argue that the same thing can happen for a 30-40 man group (guild), reality has proven it different for us.
And of course the loot generated should be sub par in the 10 man versions. For some people gear is a way to show off. For others though its just a means to an end ( to experience the next encounter).
Let me close this post by simply saying this. This change has driven 7 friends into rejoining this game after a 1,5 years absence.
Let me close this post by simply saying this. This change has driven 7 friends into rejoining this game after a 1,5 years absence.
Congrats, I think you'll enjoy what you find. I suggest you make your first destination Karazhan once you all reach 70 that is. Kara is the most popular instance these days and is a 10 man. You can easily find a couple people milling about Kara on most nights that wouldn't mind a chance to take an alt or something. Should be no trouble for your 7 man group to find a couple willing participants. Good luck.
Greetings, I believe this is one of the most positive decisions the dev's have taken in WoW. I believe introducing two tier raids will work very well for WoW in particular and MMO's in general (given that many new MMO's try to copy WoW some way or another).
I've said numerous times there should be two tier raiding but Blizzard are being lazy and not creating unique content for both. If they created two 25 man instances with the harder content being the main lore content (Arthas, Malygos) and another 25 man (or 10man) content for the casuals. And the "hardcore" raiders will do the 10 man on non-raiding nights and once casuals had farmed the 10man a lot of them would have a shot at the 25 man and enjoy it. But under the proposed content once you've seen the instance you've seen it all. There is no motive for someone who has done the 25 man version to the 10 man and vice versa.
It just comes down to the fact that Blizzard is slow and lazy in releasin g new content. If they keep going on how they have 10 million subscribers than surely they have the money to create content to keep most of them happy.
WoW was released in 2004. Tell me, who flocked to WoW at launch? Was it the casuals playing the Sims or was it the hardcore players from EQ, UO, DaoC and SWG? Thats right, hardcore players made WoW successful. How many "casuals" were in beta? If you're someone who signs up for beta testing of a game, you aren't casual.
Who here hasn't used an addon in wow? Who here hasn't used things like ct raid, omen, ktm, deadly boss mods etc at some point of time? Oh, so the casuals are now going to take over making and maintaining mods? Oh, thats right, it was those no life nerds who made those mods that are used by virtually all WoW players. SO before you start boasting that your life is so exciting and great think about those people who gave their time to make our time more fun playing WoW. Making a mod takes time and effort.
I stopped playing WoW a 1,5 years ago when TBC was introduced and so did my friends. We were all excited that TBC was coming out but some leaked information back then changed our minds. What did we see? The requirements to enter Hyjal....... The fact that Kael Thas was a raid encounter and the fact that Illidan himself was a raid encounter.
As of 2.4 all attunements have been removed. You can zone into Hyjal in a 2 player raid and talk to Jaina Proudmoore if you want. There is nothing stopping you clearing BT and downing Illidan. Despite you and your friends leaving WoW managed to increase subscribers in all markets with TBC. So much for you and your friends being part of some mass exodus from WoW after the release of TBC
Now we were (and are) all working professionals. Our first priority was never this game. Our priorities were towards our professional and social lives and never towards this game. Albeit, we enjoyed WoW very much, had formed a 7 man team constituted by real life friends (friends for 15 years I might add). The fact that we couldnt enjoy some of the content led to our decision to leave the game.
Well good for you. I'm also a working professional. I'm a senior network admin in a large company. I also have a social life and have friends (though only 1 of them played the trial, most of them don't touch computer games). I still had time for WoW. Occasionally I'd miss a raid because I had to work late in which case I let the guild know beforehand. Most casuals just turn up when they feel like and when they can't dont even have the courtesy to let their fellow team members know. Its called respect and being considerate.
The Battle of Mount Hyjal, an encounter which we all enjoyed very much in Warcraft 3 was basically inaccesible to us because of time constraints and the fact that we simply couldnt go into a raiding guild and program at least 2-3 of our night's into raiding.
If your life is so fascinating and great why are you playing a computer? If you're in such a great job, have a great social life hanging out with rock stars and hollywood actors, what are you doing playing a computer game with no-life nerds like me?
Newsflash here for you, Karazhan takes longer to clear than Mount Hyjal at the appropriate gear level. Did Blizzard say they were going to make SHORT 10-man instances? Nope. 10 man or 25 man does not indicate the size of the instance, just how many people can zone in. And the bloody instances will be the same size and most likely take the same amount of time to clear.
It simply wasn't worth it given that we didn't have the time for it, or to put it in better words, were not willing to dedicate such an amount of our free time into this. The time consumed into simply organizing 25-35 people (not to mention 40-50) was just too much.
I was in a horrible "casual" guild once. Even organising 10 people for Karazhan was hard. I transferred servers and to a guild that was organised and we had an easier time organising 25 people than my previous guild had for 10 mans. This guild also contained "working professionals" and quite a few of the members were married, had children, mortgages and social lives yet they managed to make an effort and had no problems raiding.
Now this change comes along. What this means is that 5 friends can come in and by simply adding five more you can go in and experience the content. Managing a 10 man unit is much easier ( and less time consuming) than going the other way around. Not only that but finding 5 people who are on the same page as you (limited time) is much easier than finding 30 more.
So you expect that Arthas is going to be so easy that you can PUG him? Hate to burst your bubble here, but I don't think the content is going to be THAT EASY. I'm sure you'll be dissapointed that you just can't walk into these 10 man and roll your face across your keyboard for 30 mins and get your epics and you and your friends will cancel your accounts in disgust AND THEN DEMAND BLIZZARD CREATE ENDGAME 5 MAN CONTENT. Because thats the next logical step. 5 man content and then solo content. Why not 5 man Arthas? Getting 5 friends and 5 random people is a pug and by the nature of the game PUGs are not going to have the coordination of a practised guild. Since 10 man will be endgame progression the content will not be as simple as current 10 man content.
And if you get a group going then you can go at your own pace and finish things. While one can argue that the same thing can happen for a 30-40 man group (guild), reality has proven it different for us.
Well, who's fault is that? You and the people who can't organise a guild to reflect your playstyle or the people who can organise their time and guilds to suit them? WoW is being dumb downed to a Britney Spears level because people are just useless. I work all day with idiots, I don't want to come home and experience them in WoW as well.
And of course the loot generated should be sub par in the 10 man versions. For some people gear is a way to show off. For others though its just a means to an end ( to experience the next encounter). Let me close this post by simply saying this. This change has driven 7 friends into rejoining this game after a 1,5 years absence.
I had already cancelled my account before these changes but I will not be buying WotLK as I originally planned. I had a friend playing the trial who was about to buy the full version until I told him not to. I know of about 3 other people who just cancelled and are now playing AoC because of these changes. And I know quite a few other people very unhappy and are seriously thinking of quitting wow because of the direction it is going. I've already explained why 10 man loot CANNOT be much worse than 25 man loot or it will hurt 25 man progression. Blizzard learnt this lesson. Why do you think that ZA had loot on par with ssc/tk? Why do you think the current badge gear is of tier 6 quality? Because when raiding guilds lose a member they dont want to go backwards and continually gear up new recruits and I'm all for that. Badge gear is great, removing attunements is great, ruining the story of WoW is not. Gear is unimportant. It will always get outdated. Gear is a means to an end and that end is seeing content and the storyline. How many people are still in BWL gear at lvl 70? None. How many people will be in Sunwell Plateau gear at lvl 80? Mostly none except for a few epics that will be replaced in the new Naxx.
I play because I enjoy the MMO version of Warcraft. If Blizzard poop all over what makes warcraft warcraft, then why [would I] bother playing WoW?
I see a lot of BS in this thread. There was nothing epic about 40-man raids other than you had to deal with 39 other people. The actual encounters were 95% spank and tank where DPS could just stand in one spot and press a key every 2-3 seconds. You could have 25-30 doing all the work while the rest watched TV or whatever. TBC helped in the sense that a lot of fights now require movement and staying on your toes, otherwise you'll be dead in 2 seconds. Fewer numbers means there is less room for error. I'm in a 25-man endgame guild and I think these changes are fine. Why should I feel threatened because people are going to see the same content I am? Hell, why should I even care what gear they have? If they can only field 10 raiders, then so what? Just because we can field 15 more raiders doesn't make us any better or superior to them. They pay the same $15 I do, so they have every right to play the game the way they want. Some of the epeeners in this thread need to have it cut down to size.
The pre-BC content stretched from Molten Bore style raiding to Naxx raiding. Talking to people who cleared Naxxramas and they all say it was the greatest instance ever designed and it was clear where Blizzard were taking the game. I'm glad I wasn't in your guild if all you did was stand around and spam 2 buttons on a fight like C'thun. And fights like the Four Horseman required 40 people to be good, not 25 man. Why do you think so few guilds progressed past 4 horseman?
Blizzard reduced the raiding cap to 25 but they also increased the difficulty of bosses to compensate. Remember all the tears and crying about magtheridon being too hard? Now he has the reputation as the most nerfed boss in the game along with Kael.
I don't feel threatened by these changes. I just dont like them. Why do people need to personally attack and insult anyone who doesn't like these changes? Do you casuals sleep with voodoo dolls of raiders and stab needles into them at night? Do you have a dart board with a picture of someone from Nihilium on it? Did some hardcore raider run over your dog or something? Theres more hate towards raiders from casuals than the Arab-Israeli conflict.
I had already cancelled my account before these changes but I will not be buying WotLK as I originally planned. I had a friend playing the trial who was about to buy the full version until I told him not to. I know of about 3 other people who just cancelled and are now playing AoC because of these changes.
Congrats. You only have a little over 10 million people left to convince.
Frankly I'd love to see a game that completely ignored the hard core raiders and focused solely on the casual players.
There are enough games out that already focus on hard-core raiding as it is. Besides, there are far more casual players than hard-core as can be seen by the numbers blizzard posts regarding the amount of folks that have been into and/or completed their "end game" raid zones.
Flip everything you said around regarding "ignoring hard-core" and put in casual and you'll see how the majority of the "end game" has been for casuals.
Casuals will eventually take over and I long for the day those guys from EQ1 that ruined WoW's end game can't find anything else to do. Thanks to them the end game turned into a PVE mess when it should have been a huge PVP battle like DAoC.
I will say this: congratulations, Washo, on the Block.
Your comments are no longer worth reading. It is clear that your hate of WoW is complete and total. Why people like you feel the need to infest a WoW message board with such hate I'll never understand. I think you are the one with the voodoo doll huddled in the corner. You are the one desperately stabbing pins in to your crude effigy while madly whispering "Why are you so popular?".
P.S. Don't bother responding to this because I won't be able to see it.
Its not stupid that there will be 10 man verisons its stupid that we can fight those guys at all and not just get blown away. Malygos is a friggin aspect 100 times more powerful then Arthas.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day. And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
Its not stupid that there will be 10 man verisons its stupid that we can fight those guys at all and not just get blown away. Malygos is a friggin aspect 100 times more powerful then Arthas.
What's your point?
Onyxia was Deathwing's daughter
Ragnaros was an Elemental Lord
Nefarion was Onyxia's older brother
Hakkar was a God
C'Thun was an Old God(he survived a war with the Titans that lasted tens of thousands of years)
Kel'Thuzad was/is an Arch Lich and one of Arthas' most powerful undead
I would continue but the other examples include Illidan, Archimonde and Kil'jaedan.
Its not stupid that there will be 10 man verisons its stupid that we can fight those guys at all and not just get blown away. Malygos is a friggin aspect 100 times more powerful then Arthas.
What's your point?
Onyxia was Deathwing's daughter
Ragnaros was an Elemental Lord
Nefarion was Onyxia's older brother
Hakkar was a God
C'Thun was an Old God(he survived a war with the Titans that lasted tens of thousands of years)
Kel'Thuzad was/is an Arch Lich and one of Arthas' most powerful undead
I would continue but the other examples include Illidan, Archimonde and Kil'jaedan.
Out of the Pre-BC group only Ragnaros and C'Thun come to the level of Arthas. Archimonde dies in that battle anyways we just help. Kil'jaedan is just a powerful eredar.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day. And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
Casuals are tired of being treated like second-rate players
But, but.... aren't they?
It just comes down to the fact that Blizzard is slow and lazy in releasin g new content. If they keep going on how they have 10 million subscribers than surely they have the money to create content to keep most of them happy.
So very true. They do indeed have the ressourses to add 300% more content than they currently do. But I guess they're busy polishing arenas etc.
Comments
This is exactly what I'm saying, the 25 man raids will still exist with better loot than all of the 10 man dungeons. I don't see how this affects the hardcore player at all. They still get to join a bigger party, down harder versions of bosses, and get better loot. What other reasons are there to be a hardcore pve player in wow? It's not required to do well in pvp anymore, and it takes a lot of time. I personally hated putting in 15-20 hours a week in BWL, MC, and AQ40 in hopes of good drops. That's why it's good that Blizzard is releasing content for everyone so they can at least experience the content without needing the best of loot. It seriously comes down to the fact that hardcore players don't want other people seeing the content they see, which is ridiculous seeing as it's just a video game.
You are sadly mistaken if you think Guild Wars is meant for slow people. The creativeness that is required in pve (before Ursan that is) and pvp is so much more than WoW pve could ever hope for. A noob in Guild Wars given the best skill bar will still not run it properly. Give some retard a character with good gear in WoW, he or she would be considered a good player by most because that game is so gear dependent.
You have hit the nail on the head here Kyleran. Players like Washo are a little too wrapped up in their feelings of superiority to understand what they are asking for (although it's clear he has other personality issues beyond that). They assume everybody else out there doesn't know what it's like to be 'elite' like him. In fact, there are countless players out there, me included, that have done the hardcore raid grind for years on end (before WoW even came on the market). I have no intention of go back to that. I like to play mmorpg's, but if they want my money they need to offer something fun for me to do.
And that's what it comes down to in WoW, money. It's all of those 'casuals' occasionally logging on and still paying their monthly fee who keep the development teams funded to make more content for the small population of players that make it that far. If anything, hardcore players should be screaming for WoW to do things to keep casuals around and paying their money. Otherwise the populations crash and you're left with a handful of players. When you only have a population of 50k, how is that going to fund much in the way of future development? How is that going to fund the latest upgrades for server hardware? How is that going to fund tech support that is there solving problems in the middle of the night before they affect the servers? It doesn't.
If Washo got the perfect game that he wanted, he'd be there playing it with 50k other people. And he'd also be bitching about how it's dying and there's no new content and the servers are always crashing, and so on and so on....just like so many other mmorpgs that have bitten the dust. I'm just glad blizzard doesn't listen to people like that.
Sounds a like a good solution.. every 1 gets to see the content.
Battle for mount Hyjal is not the top tier of raiding (pre 2.4). Black Temple was and that has only been out for 12 months. And its not like you could just waltz straight into Hyjal could you? Having to down Vashj and Kael pre-nerfs was not an easy thing to do. So instead of saying that Hyjal has been out for 18 months its only been available as a raid instance since late May when Nihilium downed Kael. I mean, its not like people had to level up to 70, get kara attuned, clear kara, clear the very buggy Gruul. Then down a Magtheridon 100 times harder than he is now, clear all of SSC and then clear all of TK including pre nerf bosses to get into Hyjal is it now? Remember when SSC and TK had attunements and required you to have downed Nightbane, Magtheridon and Gruul just to enter those instances?
So get your facts right.
And its not like Rage Winterchill, Anetheron, Kaz'rogal are hard are they? Even Azgalor is easy. Only Archimonde takes any degree of coordination to down. Before attunements were removed about 15% of people were hyjal/bt attuned and that had been steadily increasing. In a few weeks of 2.4 we've seen another 700,000 people progress into Hyjal and thats just Euro/North America. Who knows how many in the Asian countries are progressing. And lets face it, North Americans are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay behind the Euros. All the top guilds in the world are European. A USA guild has not a major end-of-the-instance boss world first since ... Elitist Jerks on Nef. Yup, thats right. No end boss for 3 years for America. I would say that around 50% of Euro raiders (excluding people only PvP which wotjutsu still picks up) have down at least one boss in Hyjal.
The problem is that people are so bad at this game that instead of putting in some effort and getting better all you do is whine, cry, insult raiders and DEMAND Blizzard make content so simple stupid that even terribads like most of the people in this thread can clear. I used to play games on my gameboy harder than most of the content in WoW. Well, enjoy your simple stupid content. I'll do something else with my time.
p.s. I didn't read the rest of your post because if you don't read mine I'm not going to read yours.
Oh, and 86% of people have seen at least High King Maulgar down. Gruul's lair is a 25 man instance so whats this about 25 mans being SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HARD? Over 62% have been/are in SSC. Take away PvP'ers and people who quit the game a long time ago and the % of active raiders in SSC would be much much higher.
So much for your rubbish stories that getting 25 people together is impossible.
I love this idea, this makes it easier to just go with close friends and have ALOT more fun, reminds me of the first months of KZ where our grp was pretty much friends from outside of the game and it went beautifully.
So i'm welcoming this change with open arms.
Haters of this change, remember you still get better loot from 25-man version so please.... Some does it for the gear, others for the excitement and fun.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Maybe if you spent less time insulting "hardcore raiders" and more time working on being better you would actually get to see something other than Kara. But nope, you'd rather just sit there and make personal insults about non WoW related stuff and gross generalisations than getting off your butt and putting some effort in.
If I went and joined my local sporting team, even though its not exactly a big time professional league, I would still be expected to put in 100% effort by my team mates. I would be expected to come to training and work as a team even though ITS JUST A GAME. If my team puts no effort in and plays against a team that does put effort into the game, we would lose quite badly. Should I turn around and say "I pay the same fee to play in this league and its unfair the opposition team is better because they put more effort in." You'd be laughed at for being a whiny, cry-baby idiot.
p.s. I also didn't bother reading all your post because if you don't read mine I'm not going to read yours.
Washo, are you realy 30 years old? I mean, I know of some people who are 30 and beyond that sound like you, but they not knowz how to use the internetz and have troublez with finding the ON switch...
Even though your comparison of WoW to sports makes a little bit of sense, it is far from reality. Sports are completely different from video games and they always will be. Video games are Strictly entertainment for a majority of people and will always stay that way. A majority of gamers play to relax from a tough day at work and or other things. Sports have always been completely skill based. Some people are naturally athletic and understand what to do in a sport, hense the "Skill" aspect that wow lacks. Someone can play sports all of their life and still be bad at it. Someone can play WoW for 30 hours a week get some good loot, and be considered good even if they suck. You can't compare WoW to sports it just doesn't work.
You just need to be a little more open minded. I think it's funny that you can't see other people playing WoW as a form of entertainment rather than being in it to dominate the raids or w.e it is that you consider a hardcore player doing. And another thing, you still haven't explained why 10 man raids in the 25 man format affects your playing style or ruins the game for you. You just seem to insult every other poster for disagreeing with you, and you just seem to be disappointed that you're so called "superiority" in a video game will go away a little bit, even though it really isn't at all.
Battle for mount Hyjal is not the top tier of raiding (pre 2.4). Black Temple was and that has only been out for 12 months. And its not like you could just waltz straight into Hyjal could you? Having to down Vashj and Kael pre-nerfs was not an easy thing to do. So instead of saying that Hyjal has been out for 18 months its only been available as a raid instance since late May when Nihilium downed Kael. I mean, its not like people had to level up to 70, get kara attuned, clear kara, clear the very buggy Gruul. Then down a Magtheridon 100 times harder than he is now, clear all of SSC and then clear all of TK including pre nerf bosses to get into Hyjal is it now? Remember when SSC and TK had attunements and required you to have downed Nightbane, Magtheridon and Gruul just to enter those instances?
So get your facts right.
And its not like Rage Winterchill, Anetheron, Kaz'rogal are hard are they? Even Azgalor is easy. Only Archimonde takes any degree of coordination to down. Before attunements were removed about 15% of people were hyjal/bt attuned and that had been steadily increasing. In a few weeks of 2.4 we've seen another 700,000 people progress into Hyjal and thats just Euro/North America. Who knows how many in the Asian countries are progressing. And lets face it, North Americans are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay behind the Euros. All the top guilds in the world are European. A USA guild has not a major end-of-the-instance boss world first since ... Elitist Jerks on Nef. Yup, thats right. No end boss for 3 years for America. I would say that around 50% of Euro raiders (excluding people only PvP which wotjutsu still picks up) have down at least one boss in Hyjal.
The problem is that people are so bad at this game that instead of putting in some effort and getting better all you do is whine, cry, insult raiders and DEMAND Blizzard make content so simple stupid that even terribads like most of the people in this thread can clear. I used to play games on my gameboy harder than most of the content in WoW. Well, enjoy your simple stupid content. I'll do something else with my time.
p.s. I didn't read the rest of your post because if you don't read mine I'm not going to read yours.
Oh, and 86% of people have seen at least High King Maulgar down. Gruul's lair is a 25 man instance so whats this about 25 mans being SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HARD? Over 62% have been/are in SSC. Take away PvP'ers and people who quit the game a long time ago and the % of active raiders in SSC would be much much higher.
So much for your rubbish stories that getting 25 people together is impossible.
fine, then so be it. If you do not want a conversation, then you will not get one.
Have a nice day.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Thanks, I'll have to take a look at that.
No, but if EVERY single person in your raid took an extra 10-20 seconds, on top of the 10-20 seconds given to decide, for EVERY single piece of loot that drops in Karazhan (10 bosses + chess but excluding the pointless animal boss) it starts to add up when you are working against respawn timers. Now apply that to 25 man raids.
When doing guild runs (progression content with DKP or farmed non DKP stuff) I would always expect people to quickly decide if they want to bid/roll. Quite often I used to pug Karazhan and things would be different. I expected things to go slower and for people to take longer.
On one hand you are being a selfish in holding up a raid because you feel like it. If the 9 other people in the raid are getting frustrated then you're in the wrong raid.
But EVERY single person in the raid CAN take an extra 10 seconds, since we are ALL deciding at the same time. It's not like I look for 10 seconds and then someone else looks. The time doesn't add up at all so it wouldn't matter if there were 10 in the raid or 1000, it would still only take 10 seconds for EVERYONE to look at the item.Trust me, we do Kara in like 2 hours in 45 minutes, respawns are not an issue.
Decide quickly yes, which is like 5 seconds to decide and few seconds to type /roll. Decide instantly which is the time it takes to see the item and type /roll, no, that's not necessary. I'm not holding anything up. Normally after a boss dies, people need to drink, get rezzed reapply buffs or whatever. While this is happening people can also be looking at the items that dropped and deciding to roll. It's only a couple seconds and no one has ever gotten frustrated with me. Normally I know right away whether I want the item or not because all you have to do is look at the item and if it's mail and you wear cloth, you know instantly you can't use it. The only time I need a bit more time is when it's actually of the right type for me both class wise and spec wise which is maybe 1 out of 10 times or something like that. When that happens I just usually tell the raid leader, "just a sec, I'm still deciding" and then I either roll or I say, nevermind within a couple seconds. It's not a problem for the raids I'm in, it's just that my buddy just assumed that I was like him and knew instantly whether an item was an upgrade or not. No one to my knowledge has ever complained that I take too long to decide.
I see a lot of BS in this thread. There was nothing epic about 40-man raids other than you had to deal with 39 other people. The actual encounters were 95% spank and tank where DPS could just stand in one spot and press a key every 2-3 seconds. You could have 25-30 doing all the work while the rest watched TV or whatever. TBC helped in the sense that a lot of fights now require movement and staying on your toes, otherwise you'll be dead in 2 seconds. Fewer numbers means there is less room for error.
I'm in a 25-man endgame guild and I think these changes are fine. Why should I feel threatened because people are going to see the same content I am? Hell, why should I even care what gear they have? If they can only field 10 raiders, then so what? Just because we can field 15 more raiders doesn't make us any better or superior to them. They pay the same $15 I do, so they have every right to play the game the way they want. Some of the epeeners in this thread need to have it cut down to size.
Raiders go to EQ
10 year olds and soccer moms go to WoW
MMOers going to AoC
Greetings,
I believe this is one of the most positive decisions the dev's have taken in WoW. I believe introducing two tier raids will work very well for WoW in particular and MMO's in general (given that many new MMO's try to copy WoW some way or another).
I stopped playing WoW a 1,5 years ago when TBC was introduced and so did my friends. We were all excited that TBC was coming out but some leaked information back then changed our minds. What did we see? The requirements to enter Hyjal....... The fact that Kael Thas was a raid encounter and the fact that Illidan himself was a raid encounter.
Now we were (and are) all working professionals. Our first priority was never this game. Our priorities were towards our professional and social lives and never towards this game. Albeit, we enjoyed WoW very much, had formed a 7 man team constituted by real life friends (friends for 15 years I might add). The fact that we couldnt enjoy some of the content led to our decision to leave the game.
The Battle of Mount Hyjal, an encounter which we all enjoyed very much in Warcraft 3 was basically inaccesible to us because of time constraints and the fact that we simply couldnt go into a raiding guild and program at least 2-3 of our night's into raiding. It simply wasn't worth it given that we didn't have the time for it, or to put it in better words, were not willing to dedicate such an amount of our free time into this. The time consumed into simply organizing 25-35 people (not to mention 40-50) was just too much.
Now this change comes along. What this means is that 5 friends can come in and by simply adding five more you can go in and experience the content. Managing a 10 man unit is much easier ( and less time consuming) than going the other way around. Not only that but finding 5 people who are on the same page as you (limited time) is much easier than finding 30 more. And if you get a group going then you can go at your own pace and finish things. While one can argue that the same thing can happen for a 30-40 man group (guild), reality has proven it different for us.
And of course the loot generated should be sub par in the 10 man versions. For some people gear is a way to show off. For others though its just a means to an end ( to experience the next encounter).
Let me close this post by simply saying this. This change has driven 7 friends into rejoining this game after a 1,5 years absence.
Congrats, I think you'll enjoy what you find. I suggest you make your first destination Karazhan once you all reach 70 that is. Kara is the most popular instance these days and is a 10 man. You can easily find a couple people milling about Kara on most nights that wouldn't mind a chance to take an alt or something. Should be no trouble for your 7 man group to find a couple willing participants. Good luck.
I've said numerous times there should be two tier raiding but Blizzard are being lazy and not creating unique content for both. If they created two 25 man instances with the harder content being the main lore content (Arthas, Malygos) and another 25 man (or 10man) content for the casuals. And the "hardcore" raiders will do the 10 man on non-raiding nights and once casuals had farmed the 10man a lot of them would have a shot at the 25 man and enjoy it. But under the proposed content once you've seen the instance you've seen it all. There is no motive for someone who has done the 25 man version to the 10 man and vice versa.
It just comes down to the fact that Blizzard is slow and lazy in releasin g new content. If they keep going on how they have 10 million subscribers than surely they have the money to create content to keep most of them happy.
WoW was released in 2004. Tell me, who flocked to WoW at launch? Was it the casuals playing the Sims or was it the hardcore players from EQ, UO, DaoC and SWG? Thats right, hardcore players made WoW successful. How many "casuals" were in beta? If you're someone who signs up for beta testing of a game, you aren't casual.
Who here hasn't used an addon in wow? Who here hasn't used things like ct raid, omen, ktm, deadly boss mods etc at some point of time? Oh, so the casuals are now going to take over making and maintaining mods? Oh, thats right, it was those no life nerds who made those mods that are used by virtually all WoW players. SO before you start boasting that your life is so exciting and great think about those people who gave their time to make our time more fun playing WoW. Making a mod takes time and effort.
As of 2.4 all attunements have been removed. You can zone into Hyjal in a 2 player raid and talk to Jaina Proudmoore if you want. There is nothing stopping you clearing BT and downing Illidan. Despite you and your friends leaving WoW managed to increase subscribers in all markets with TBC. So much for you and your friends being part of some mass exodus from WoW after the release of TBC
Well good for you. I'm also a working professional. I'm a senior network admin in a large company. I also have a social life and have friends (though only 1 of them played the trial, most of them don't touch computer games). I still had time for WoW. Occasionally I'd miss a raid because I had to work late in which case I let the guild know beforehand. Most casuals just turn up when they feel like and when they can't dont even have the courtesy to let their fellow team members know. Its called respect and being considerate.
If your life is so fascinating and great why are you playing a computer? If you're in such a great job, have a great social life hanging out with rock stars and hollywood actors, what are you doing playing a computer game with no-life nerds like me?
Newsflash here for you, Karazhan takes longer to clear than Mount Hyjal at the appropriate gear level. Did Blizzard say they were going to make SHORT 10-man instances? Nope. 10 man or 25 man does not indicate the size of the instance, just how many people can zone in. And the bloody instances will be the same size and most likely take the same amount of time to clear.
I was in a horrible "casual" guild once. Even organising 10 people for Karazhan was hard. I transferred servers and to a guild that was organised and we had an easier time organising 25 people than my previous guild had for 10 mans. This guild also contained "working professionals" and quite a few of the members were married, had children, mortgages and social lives yet they managed to make an effort and had no problems raiding.
So you expect that Arthas is going to be so easy that you can PUG him? Hate to burst your bubble here, but I don't think the content is going to be THAT EASY. I'm sure you'll be dissapointed that you just can't walk into these 10 man and roll your face across your keyboard for 30 mins and get your epics and you and your friends will cancel your accounts in disgust AND THEN DEMAND BLIZZARD CREATE ENDGAME 5 MAN CONTENT. Because thats the next logical step. 5 man content and then solo content. Why not 5 man Arthas? Getting 5 friends and 5 random people is a pug and by the nature of the game PUGs are not going to have the coordination of a practised guild. Since 10 man will be endgame progression the content will not be as simple as current 10 man content.
Well, who's fault is that? You and the people who can't organise a guild to reflect your playstyle or the people who can organise their time and guilds to suit them? WoW is being dumb downed to a Britney Spears level because people are just useless. I work all day with idiots, I don't want to come home and experience them in WoW as well.
I had already cancelled my account before these changes but I will not be buying WotLK as I originally planned. I had a friend playing the trial who was about to buy the full version until I told him not to. I know of about 3 other people who just cancelled and are now playing AoC because of these changes. And I know quite a few other people very unhappy and are seriously thinking of quitting wow because of the direction it is going.
I've already explained why 10 man loot CANNOT be much worse than 25 man loot or it will hurt 25 man progression. Blizzard learnt this lesson. Why do you think that ZA had loot on par with ssc/tk? Why do you think the current badge gear is of tier 6 quality? Because when raiding guilds lose a member they dont want to go backwards and continually gear up new recruits and I'm all for that. Badge gear is great, removing attunements is great, ruining the story of WoW is not. Gear is unimportant. It will always get outdated. Gear is a means to an end and that end is seeing content and the storyline. How many people are still in BWL gear at lvl 70? None. How many people will be in Sunwell Plateau gear at lvl 80? Mostly none except for a few epics that will be replaced in the new Naxx.
I play because I enjoy the MMO version of Warcraft. If Blizzard poop all over what makes warcraft warcraft, then why [would I] bother playing WoW?
The pre-BC content stretched from Molten Bore style raiding to Naxx raiding. Talking to people who cleared Naxxramas and they all say it was the greatest instance ever designed and it was clear where Blizzard were taking the game. I'm glad I wasn't in your guild if all you did was stand around and spam 2 buttons on a fight like C'thun. And fights like the Four Horseman required 40 people to be good, not 25 man. Why do you think so few guilds progressed past 4 horseman?
Blizzard reduced the raiding cap to 25 but they also increased the difficulty of bosses to compensate. Remember all the tears and crying about magtheridon being too hard? Now he has the reputation as the most nerfed boss in the game along with Kael.
I don't feel threatened by these changes. I just dont like them. Why do people need to personally attack and insult anyone who doesn't like these changes? Do you casuals sleep with voodoo dolls of raiders and stab needles into them at night? Do you have a dart board with a picture of someone from Nihilium on it? Did some hardcore raider run over your dog or something? Theres more hate towards raiders from casuals than the Arab-Israeli conflict.
Congrats. You only have a little over 10 million people left to convince.
Frankly I'd love to see a game that completely ignored the hard core raiders and focused solely on the casual players.
There are enough games out that already focus on hard-core raiding as it is. Besides, there are far more casual players than hard-core as can be seen by the numbers blizzard posts regarding the amount of folks that have been into and/or completed their "end game" raid zones.
Flip everything you said around regarding "ignoring hard-core" and put in casual and you'll see how the majority of the "end game" has been for casuals.
Casuals will eventually take over and I long for the day those guys from EQ1 that ruined WoW's end game can't find anything else to do. Thanks to them the end game turned into a PVE mess when it should have been a huge PVP battle like DAoC.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
Going a little mental there Washo?
I will say this: congratulations, Washo, on the Block.
Your comments are no longer worth reading. It is clear that your hate of WoW is complete and total. Why people like you feel the need to infest a WoW message board with such hate I'll never understand. I think you are the one with the voodoo doll huddled in the corner. You are the one desperately stabbing pins in to your crude effigy while madly whispering "Why are you so popular?".
P.S. Don't bother responding to this because I won't be able to see it.
Its not stupid that there will be 10 man verisons its stupid that we can fight those guys at all and not just get blown away. Malygos is a friggin aspect 100 times more powerful then Arthas.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day.
And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
Onyxia was Deathwing's daughter
Ragnaros was an Elemental Lord
Nefarion was Onyxia's older brother
Hakkar was a God
C'Thun was an Old God(he survived a war with the Titans that lasted tens of thousands of years)
Kel'Thuzad was/is an Arch Lich and one of Arthas' most powerful undead
I would continue but the other examples include Illidan, Archimonde and Kil'jaedan.
Onyxia was Deathwing's daughter
Ragnaros was an Elemental Lord
Nefarion was Onyxia's older brother
Hakkar was a God
C'Thun was an Old God(he survived a war with the Titans that lasted tens of thousands of years)
Kel'Thuzad was/is an Arch Lich and one of Arthas' most powerful undead
I would continue but the other examples include Illidan, Archimonde and Kil'jaedan.
Out of the Pre-BC group only Ragnaros and C'Thun come to the level of Arthas. Archimonde dies in that battle anyways we just help. Kil'jaedan is just a powerful eredar.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day.
And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
But, but.... aren't they?
It just comes down to the fact that Blizzard is slow and lazy in releasin g new content. If they keep going on how they have 10 million subscribers than surely they have the money to create content to keep most of them happy.
So very true. They do indeed have the ressourses to add 300% more content than they currently do. But I guess they're busy polishing arenas etc.