Nothing wrong with small and solo group content, but it is much easier the smaller the groups are. The more people you add the more mechanics and tools the devs have at their disposal to throw against players, because there is not only room for every class, but room for multiples. Love it or hate it, that is just the reality of how things in current MMOs can be built. I like Blizzards attempt to capture many styles of play and offer multiple avenues for people to play. I may not like all of them, but that isn't what is intended. Just that there is enough of some things to find enjoyable. I hope more companies follow suit in their design theories.
I guess the reality is you many of those posting here really do like an MMO dumbed-down to the the most casual common denominator, and that is OK, WoW is the perfect MMO for that - fun, polished, and with no real need to depend on anyone else. With epic 10 man raids - you really can solo this entire game now without any real social interaction.. (yes grouping for 2 hours and not even talking with strangers is solo'ing IMO.)
But this thread has gotten off topic I think... for a company that only releases an expansion every two years, it is sad to see just more of the same gimmics and instances re-introduced. Yes it is nice that more people will see NAXX, but it will never be the same as it was as a 40-man, and it was HARD. And all raiders do not live in their basement with their mom...
On another point - the lore of the WOW IP has been broken beyond all repair.. so who really cares what they dream up...
I guess the reality is you many of those posting here really do like an MMO dumbed-down to the the most casual common denominator, and that is OK, WoW is the perfect MMO for that - fun, polished, and with no real need to depend on anyone else. With epic 10 man raids - you really can solo this entire game now without any real social interaction.. (yes grouping for 2 hours and not even talking with strangers is solo'ing IMO.) Yes, I would rather play a MMO that is actually FUN. The "hardcore" people like you have probably forgot what this thing called "fun" is but I will not play a MMO that takes pride in its archaic gameplay that punches you in the nuts at every opportunity. And, no, grouping with 9 other people is NOT soloing. Also, if you do these raids and never feel like talking to them then its because you're anti-social and that is no fault of WoWs. But this thread has gotten off topic I think... for a company that only releases an expansion every two years, it is sad to see just more of the same gimmics and instances re-introduced. Yes it is nice that more people will see NAXX, but it will never be the same as it was as a 40-man, and it was HARD. And all raiders do not live in their basement with their mom... The expansions are released every 2 years but they release new content patches about every 4 months. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by the "same gimmicks". What gimmicks are they re-releasing? On another point - the lore of the WOW IP has been broken beyond all repair.. so who reallycares what they dream up... The only lore that they broke was the eredar, everything else was big leaps but nothing else was broken.
Nothing wrong with small and solo group content, but it is much easier the smaller the groups are. The more people you add the more mechanics and tools the devs have at their disposal to throw against players, because there is not only room for every class, but room for multiples. Love it or hate it, that is just the reality of how things in current MMOs can be built. I like Blizzards attempt to capture many styles of play and offer multiple avenues for people to play. I may not like all of them, but that isn't what is intended. Just that there is enough of some things to find enjoyable. I hope more companies follow suit in their design theories.
I guess the reality is you many of those posting here really do like an MMO dumbed-down to the the most casual common denominator, and that is OK, WoW is the perfect MMO for that - fun, polished, and with no real need to depend on anyone else. With epic 10 man raids - you really can solo this entire game now without any real social interaction.. (yes grouping for 2 hours and not even talking with strangers is solo'ing IMO.)
But this thread has gotten off topic I think... for a company that only releases an expansion every two years, it is sad to see just more of the same gimmics and instances re-introduced. Yes it is nice that more people will see NAXX, but it will never be the same as it was as a 40-man, and it was HARD. And all raiders do not live in their basement with their mom...
On another point - the lore of the WOW IP has been broken beyond all repair.. so who really cares what they dream up...
Naxx was no harder than anything prior to it really. BWL was just as hard when it was new, the same for AQ40 and the next 10 dungeons down the road will be difficult in their own rights. WoW does a really good job of mixing things up enough so it isn't just a series of tank and spank or some artificial mechanics to challenge players.
I just don't subscribe to the mindset that the only course of progress needs to be hard core raiding. That is where the majority of my MMO background comes from and something I enjoy, but I have no problem with people taking alternate avenues just so long as equal efforts are required. The last part is a little off balance right now, but it seems to be working all right. Not what I call perfect, but pretty good for a new trend in MMOs.
Personally I don't mind the 2 year wait for expansions as long as they are done well and enough free content is released in between. I've had more than enough of companies dumping generic lifeless expansions onto a game that continually throw the games design, values and balance out the window. I will take slow and well thought out over quick and rushed.
What everyone seems to be missing is the ridiculousness of having the same boss in a 10 man and 25 man? From a storyline point of view its stupid to have someone like Arthas as a 10 man raid. The Lick King/Arthas is supposed to be one of the most powerful entities in the game that can be done in a simple 10 man more. And have the same boss in 2 different instances ... that is stupid.
In WotLK there will be 10 classes. Unless they make the 10mans simple stupid there will be no room for moonkin druids, ret paladins or fury warriors. Even prot paladins will have limited roles unless Blizzard throws up some manufactured scenario where AoE tanking is required on trash. And don't forget we have to fit in Death Knight tanking. How are you going to fit 4 tanks in a 10 man? Prot warrior and paladin, feral druid and death knight, hmm? There aren't many bosses where a prot paladin beats a warrior tank. So casuals will complain that utility specs like moonkin, elemental shaman, ret paladins aren't wanted in 10 mans. And if you can complete the 10 mans with these classes they will be simple and easy. The benefit of bringing these classes to 25mans is that they provide raid and group buffs that outweigh their lower DPS. With only 2 groups for 10mans you don't have things like melee groups and caster groups. And the reason you can complete Karazhan/ZA with off-specs is because they are EASY.
I was in a guild that cleared Hyjal/BT recently only raiding 12 hours a week. 3 nights of 4 hours. Most people watch more than 12 hours of TV a week. Most of the players in the guild were 25-30, virtually all of them worked full time, the only ones who didn't were married women with children who stayed home. I used to play sport that required 2 training nights a week and a match day on Sunday. Roughly about the same as WoW. I used to be in a "casual" guild where we actually raided more often 4 nights of 4 hours but attendance we would have 10-12 of the 25 spots would be different each night. This guild progressed nowhere BECAUSE WE WERE BAD. I even spoke to some of the members when they finally got to 5/6 SSC and 3/4 TK, and guess what, they couldn't even down Vashj because no one put in any effort into it even though they spent more hours attempting it than me new guild who downed Kael and Vashj in much much less time because we PUT THE EFFORT IN.
If you have that little time to devote to a hobby, if your life is THAT exciting that you can't put the effort into learning how to play the game and organising 25 then maybe play a different game?
As I have proven you can see most of the content in the game without being a 40 hour a week raiding guild then these changes are not designed for "casual" players but BAD PLAYERS. I'm all for having simple and easy content for casuals, but why does it have to be the same as 25 man content that progresses the storyline? Because you pay $15 a month too? I pay $15 a month too therefore I DEMAND THAT BLIZZARD GIVE ME A 2200 ARENA RATING. After raiding I had little time for PvP but since I pay the same monthly fee as the PvP'ers I demand to ahve the same ratings, titles and PvP gear as them.
Have instances for the raiders with harder bosses and better loot and instances for casuals but the tier gear is X.5 whereas the hardcore content will be X.0 gear (ie hardcore instance has tier 8 and the more casual tier has 7.5).
Funny that you should suggest this, when it's largely what they've been doing all along. This is exactly what they are trying to get away from. The only problem I see here is that everyone is assuming 10-man is easier than 25-man, which is most likely not true. Casuals are tired of being treated like second-rate players, even though they pay just as much as the hardcore. Blizzard wants to level the playing field, and allow epic gear across all forms of gameplay. If anything, this is long overdue.
What are you talking about? You have badge gear THAT IS OF TIER 6 LEVEL and you can get the badges from heroics and Karazhan. 3 daily heroics and Karazhan will net you around 35-40 badges a week. You have crafted gear and now that primal nethers and nether vortexs are no longer BoP. Between badge gear, the odd PvP item and crafted gear you can easily make a character BETTER THAN TIER 5.
Or are you just saying you want the best gear in the game without having to work for it? This is what it gets down to. Its not casuals who want these changes, it's the bad players.
I think this is a good idea. Of course the unemployed elitists who still live with their mothers and have no friends at all hate it. They've made WoW their job, and therefore hate the fact that other people might enjoy this game as a- OH MY GOD! - a game
And some people play a game for a challenge. Just because something is hard doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done. If I play a sport and my team gets thrashed should I whinge and complain and say "its only a game, you guys tried too hard?" If I pay the same fee to play in a competition does that entitle me to the same results and rewards as the team who puts in the most effort and plays the best? If your argument is that you should have the same rewards (in anything) because you pay the same amount of money then effort means nothing. If WoW's content is based on your monthly fee then why doesn't Blizzard give hand out epics to everyone when you log on?
They are not ruining the game, so it doesn't "just keep getting worse." If the 10-man version of a raid bothers you so much, then simply don't do it, ignore it and pretend it's not there. That's what the 25 man is for. No one ever said you had to ever even step foot in the 10-man version. Of course if it's the fact of other players other than yourself getting to actually see content and experience the game, then it's time to shutdown the computer and go outside. Walk down the street a little bit, you might even see another person! I know it may be a little hard to socialize, but it would do some good.
I love this argument. Why does every casual need to stereotype and insult the "hardcore" players as no life nerds? I'm all for casuals seeing content. But why does that content have to ruin the storyline of WoW? (reducing main characters in the WoW story to little more than loot bags). Why are you so obsessed with seeing everything hardcore players see? If you have your own casual content created for you then why do you NEED to do exactly what the hardcores are doing? I think it is you who is the fanatical one here, getting all upset because hardcore players get to see content that you don't. So why should that worry you with your exciting and socially brilliant life?
Once casual guilds have finished the casual instance they can have a shot at the hardcore instance or move onto the next X.5 instance. Hardcore raiders can do the casual 25mans on days off on if they feel like it.
But having the same boss as a 10 man and 25 man instance just ruins the story. And no, Kael 5 man is not the same. The 5 man Kael is him after his defeat in Tempest Keep. Lvl 80 Naxxramas fits in the story because it has moved back to Northrend and will not exist as a 40 man instance anymore.
Sorry but it's just silly to keep catering to the 5% of the people that actually see the end raids. Enjoy the mass zergs of yester-year while you can because they will slowly disappear and be replaced with ways to be rewarded in smaller groups and solo play for the "masses".
Personally I find it laughable that someone thinks it takes 25+ people to make a encounter challenging.
Explain to me how the Vashj fight can be 10 man'ed and still keep all the aspects of the fight intact. Actually, on my realm Vashj and Kael are pug'ed. So why is it that good pug'ers can clear those bosses but the casuals can't? Of course it wouldnt have anything to do with the casuals who could never down Vashj/Kael (many many many good casual guilds did) were BAD PLAYERS?
Blizzard needs to stop catering the game to bad BAD PLAYERS. What about those of us with jobs and social lives who can still clear content in WoW? After Illidan a bunch of people in my guild decided to take a break because the demands of Sunwell were too high. We might have been able to down Kalecgos but we knew our DPS was waaaaaay too low for Brutallus. It would take quite a few weeks of farming Hyjal/BT to get anywhere in Sunwell. Did we cry and moan and insult all the raiders in Sunwell for being no life losers? Nope. Am I crying because I wont see sunwell? Nope. I wasn't prepared to put the effort to progress in sunwell. Now, if I was a casual I would be saying "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH NERF SUNWELL!!!!! MY LIFE IS WAAAY COOL I DEMAND TO SEE SUNWELL NOW!"
To the OP, Naxx isn't where Arthas resides and will not be the dungeon you fight him in. The new badge gear, while kick ass, is not ass good as the newest pvp/pve gear attainable.
I realise Arthas isn't in Naxxramas but the 10/25 model will be used for all WotLK dungeons. So when he is available to fight (not until the last patch of WotLK) it has been confirmed there will be a 10 man and 25 man version of him.
The badge gear is far superior for high end PvE. One or two items is ok but most PvP is severly lacking in hit rating. For example a destro warlock that doesn't have 202 hit rating is a waste of a raid spot.
OP: First of all, you will NEVER kill Arthas, 10 or 25 men. you can defeat him, but not kill him
Second, nothing that has been said so far remove the fact that THERE COULD BE different boss mobs for the 10-men and the 25-men. The place is the same, but so what? Heroic Dungeons also are the same but they have differences than normal dungeons like extra bosses or extra people in there, so why not replace old bosses with new ones?
Third: It is great news! Finally everyone or almost everyone will have a decent chance of seeing all that top tier content that they never could cause they were not in a super raid guild and were limited to Kara and Zul'aman.
fourth: You are all missing the biggest point of that interview :AERIAL COMBAT! Damn dogfights between griffins and gnome airplanes? Blizzard did it again.... they are all unassuming about their expansion until BAM! they go and reveal something really unique, like this.
Fifth: I saw the movies, I saw the interview and damn. I was so sure I would pass to WAR this autumn... now I think WAR better be really really good to have even a chance to compete with WoTLK... and no, I do not give a damn if it is "the same stuff", I have been playing this game since release and if I was bored of the "same stuff" I would have quit months/years ago.
sixth: A new tank was needed, so few tanks around that is incredible you can actually do some instances, the death knight look cool and sounds fun to play with its own unique mechanics.
seventh: there is a lot more to the expansion than has been revealed so far, nothing has been said yet about siege engines, the fully pvp region with Dalaran nor about the inscription profession.
eigth: you get new quest TYPES in which you rescue someone, jump on the same horse/vehicle and have to defend the thing from assaults with some custom interface and abilities.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Holly crap... this kinda scares me.... cuz blizzard is doing something smart? (not including how they were before WoW loved blizzard before WoW)
Can anyone tell me if this is the end of the world? Anyways thats awsome, my friend resently told me about the badge stuff and i was thinkin, maybe id come back but then i remembered i have a warrior and i xftered servers... gah...
But yea, i jumped on the HATE WoW bandwagon after expericing it (70 warrior raided grulls, Kara) but, it sounds like they are improving the game a lot good for them. Hopefully the new mmos coming out will step it up as well.
Next thing for them to do it work on balance issuses and itemization for class's i know its still horrible and it needs changing badly...
Its not casuals who want these changes, it's the bad players.
Eh, I cleared every raid pre-bc (mc, bwl, aq, and naxx), and I'm all for smaller group sizes. The problem with raids is that it prevents more casual players from attaining top equipment. Now, that doesn't mean that I think casual players should be able to easily get a full set of top gear, but I do believe that every dungeon should have the ability to drop top tier gear, with smaller instances having a much lower drop rate than raids. This solution allows everyone to enjoy their playstyle without creating a subclass of players. It also allows the developer to create an extremely diverse game by including small, mid, and large group content.
Yes, I would rather play a MMO that is actually FUN. The "hardcore" people like you have probably forgot what this thing called "fun" is but I will not play a MMO that takes pride in its archaic gameplay that punches you in the nuts at every opportunity.
This is what I meant by getting off topic... You are putting alot of bias on what is fun/not fun from your perspective. I am OK with that, but understand everyone has their own definition. WOW being carebear = fun?? well for some yes, for some no....but really do you need to attack me personally?
And, no, grouping with 9 other people is NOT soloing. Also, if you do these raids and never feel like talking to them then its because you're anti-social and that is no fault of WoWs.
Again, why the personal attack - as if I am this anti-social gamer? I am not or never been.. I am simply stating the mechanics of WoW are currently such that you can do most anything with a selfish solo mindset.. i found PUG dungeon running to be increasingly anti-social. The way blizzard gives out awards does not discourage this.
Also, I'm not sure what you mean by the "same gimmicks". What gimmicks are they re-releasing?
This is really the meat of my frustration with blizzard currently... you may agree of disagree, i will not bash you for it.
1. Aerial combat.. great idea.. will be strictly in a controlled zone area, unaffected by the greater world... basically a cute mini-game (yeah i am gonna say carebear candy). Aion is trying to pull this off as a core game mechanic... maybe they will, maybe they won't, but that takes alot more balls.
2. Siege weapon open world PVP zone... 1 new zone with siege weapons... again cool, I loved AV (old school AV) maybe some of the people who are tired of arena idiots will have some fun.... Warhammer is designing their entire server realm around this kind of mechanic.. again if they can pull it off, wow! just sooo much coolness and fun..
3. one new class.. spawned at level 55... sigh... what ever happened to hero classes? (especially when the previous expansion just traded a class to each side...)
4. 10/25 man duplicate dungeons... immersion breaker for me big time. it makes me feel like i am in a childen's theme park, not an evolving parallel world.
The new combat system in AOC has been bashed as gimmicky button mashing, and who knows how The Chronicles of Spellborn will turn out, but at least both these games are trying to make a more immersive complex combat system.
WoW just takes a very old system and strings it along ad nauseum. I guess I feel like I have already been there/done that back in EQ. (yeah re-read your first reply here...) I only get personally annoyed because IMO many of the posters ignorantly salivate over everything blizzard does, clueless to how many of their ideas and plucked from this or that game.
Originally posted by Xiaoki: Yes, I would rather play a MMO that is actually FUN. The "hardcore" people like you have probably forgot what this thing called "fun" is but I will not play a MMO that takes pride in its archaic gameplay that punches you in the nuts at every opportunity. This is what I meant by getting off topic... You are putting alot of bias on what is fun/not fun from your perspective. I am OK with that, but understand everyone has their own definition. WOW being carebear = fun?? well for some yes, for some no....but really do you need to attack me personally? And, no, grouping with 9 other people is NOT soloing. Also, if you do these raids and never feel like talking to them then its because you're anti-social and that is no fault of WoWs. Again, why the personal attack - as if I am this anti-social gamer? I am not or never been.. I am simply stating the mechanics of WoW are currently such that you can do most anything with a selfish solo mindset.. i found PUG dungeon running to be increasingly anti-social. The way blizzard gives out awards does not discourage this. Seige weapons in Wow and player driven and controlled... seige weapons in WAr are 100% NPC controlled. And as tp PUG dungeons being anti-social.. sometimes you have to make an effort to talk to the others.. they might be shy or even not speak good english. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by the "same gimmicks". What gimmicks are they re-releasing? This is really the meat of my frustration with blizzard currently... you may agree of disagree, i will not bash you for it. 1. Aerial combat.. great idea.. will be strictly in a controlled zone area, unaffected by the greater world... basically a cute mini-game (yeah i am gonna say carebear candy). Aion is trying to pull this off as a core game mechanic... maybe they will, maybe they won't, but that takes alot more balls. Yes Aerial combat is limited to mini games but also the new PvP zone, where you can drop bombs from your player controlled flying mounts. 2. Siege weapon open world PVP zone... 1 new zone with siege weapons... again cool, I loved AV (old school AV) maybe some of the people who are tired of arena idiots will have some fun.... Warhammer is designing their entire server realm around this kind of mechanic.. again if they can pull it off, wow! just sooo much coolness and fun.. So expect Wow to change its core game in the new expansion? thats madness. 10 million people love it as it is.. there is no reason to change. Plus if you have played WAR beta you would have a different view on WoW 0.5 (WAR) 3. one new class.. spawned at level 55... sigh... what ever happened to hero classes? (especially when the previous expansion just traded a class to each side...) Death knight is the first hero class... blizzard are going to add more in the future.. you cant throw a handful of new classes into the game.. you need to see how they play and balance them and best way to do that its to itroduce them 1 by 1. 4. 10/25 man duplicate dungeons... immersion breaker for me big time. it makes me feel like i am in a childen's theme park, not an evolving parallel world. Yes.. shame on blizzard opening up the end game content for small guilds and casual players.. how dare they listen to their player base. The new combat system in AOC has been bashed as gimmicky button mashing, and who knows how The Chronicles of Spellborn will turn out, but at least both these games are trying to make a more immersive complex combat system. Again you expect WoW to change its combat system in Wotlk.. madness. WoW just takes a very old system and strings it along ad nauseum. I guess I feel like I have already been there/done that back in EQ. (yeah re-read your first reply here...) I only get personally annoyed because IMO many of the posters ignorantly salivate over everything blizzard does, clueless to how many of their ideas and plucked from this or that game. As have other games plucked ideas from WoW and older blizzard games such as diablo (a game older than EQ1 BTW)
Sorcielle - you yourself said WoW was fun. Although that was right after you said it was "dumbed-down to the most casual denominator".
In the same post you said "just more of the same gimmicks". Which doesn't seem to be true but you don't like them anyway. You said they were "carebear candy".
So, basically you say one thing then say another when it suits your needs to mindlessly bash WoW.
Sorcielle - you yourself said WoW was fun. Although that was right after you said it was "dumbed-down to the most casual denominator". In the same post you said "just more of the same gimmicks". Which doesn't seem to be true but you don't like them anyway. You said they were "carebear candy". So, basically you say one thing then say another when it suits your needs to mindlessly bash WoW.
The keyword here is "mindless(ly)".
Why is it that, as a culture, we are more comfortable seeing two men holding guns than holding hands? ~Ernest Gaines
I just want to know where the idea got started that 10 man opposed to 25 man means casual rather than hard core? Isn't it possible for a hard core guild to have just 10 members as opposed to 25? The way I read Blizzard's comments were that some people just think less is more. Personally I like the 10 man raids better than the 25 man raids. My experience has been that in 10 mans, it's a more relaxed atmosphere. Everyone isn't so worried that if one person talks in Vent that 5 other people are gonna tell him to "clear vent". That's not more casual, that's just more fun. And contrary to popular belief, it's not really that much tougher to find 25 people to raid with as opposed to 10 people, it's just easier to find 10 people that you enjoy playing with than 25.
Sorcielle - you yourself said WoW was fun. Although that was right after you said it was "dumbed-down to the most casual denominator". In the same post you said "just more of the same gimmicks". Which doesn't seem to be true but you don't like them anyway. You said they were "carebear candy". So, basically you say one thing then say another when it suits your needs to mindlessly bash WoW.
The keyword here is "mindless(ly)".
Sigh..... I love how some of these posts jump on anything I say positive about WoW and turn it arond, -as if by saying something positive it makes my argument weak or incoherent. - and thus my disappointment is due to my own irrationality.
@Coffee - some of your points about how siege works in WAR are outdated or just plain wrong. What else can I say to that?
My goal with these posts was really not to start a fanboy flame war, but rather to express my persoanl disappointment about duplicate 10/25 dungeons. I can only repeat that it feels gimmicky to me... If you want to do 25 man content, you should be able to find a 30-man guild and do it. The class roles in a 10-man dungeon ultimately become limited and even more cookie cutter. At least with 25 people there is a quite a bit of variance to how the encounter can be sculpted.
It is true that there isn't a lot of variation in 10 mans at level 70, but who says this isn't going to change with the new dungeons? Plus you must not have been around for WoW at level 60. If you wanted to compete in pvp at all, hours and hours of playing time were required. Plus a lot of people didn't get to see some of the cool content that was around. Naxx is a perfect example of this. It was one of the coolest 40 man dungeons in the game. I'm glad they're bringing it back so people who didn't see it can enjoy it. You are forgetting that this game is around for people to be entertained. It is entertainment. Who cares if someone else who has more to do with their life, or would rather not play videogames a lot gets some good gear for once. It doesn't affect you in the slightest. As long as you are progressing like you want to it shouldn't matter. You are playing the game the way you want to and are being entertained by it. Casual Players are playing the game they want to, and will enjoy it. Everyone wins.
Small raid numbers mean more contribution from each person on your team. Small numbers also mean less scheduling, few wipes due to idiots not following commands, easier to organize for a fight.
I remeber the 40 man fight for C'thun. That was absolutely ridiculous. 40 people following a perfect pattern. One peron's mistake could kill 5 - 10 other people instantly.
40 man and even 25 mans raids only have 5 skilled people in them. The tank, secondary tank, main healer, puller, secondary healer. The rest are a bunch of slackers pressing 2 buttons and moving when CTRaid tells them to move.
When the raids shrunk down to 10 mans I noticed much more activity form every member of the raid group. Each person had a specific job during boss battles.
I remeber the 40 man fight for C'thun. That was absolutely ridiculous. 40 people following a perfect pattern. One peron's mistake could kill 5 - 10 other people instantly.
C'Thun... I think was the most precise encounter ever made by blizzard.. yes one person' s small mistake and next thing you know, inevitible wipe. The encounter demoralized and almost broke up our guild... but it was worth it IMO.
I am not saying there is no place for 10-man raids. Back in the old days strat and scholo, BRD, BRS totally had their place.. and now with them more set up in raid style, that is fine.
I do disagree that there are only 5 skilled players in a raid. Yes that is true for some of the more tired encounters, but many of them were cleverly designed so this specifically wasn't the case... no I am not going to break down each boss fight to prove my point. Yes some people have a more important role in an encounter. still the ability to get 40 people working in unison is what i always thought was so cool about raiding... unfortunately people got so hooked on the gear hamster wheel... that during the fight people were just sweating if 'the sword' would drop or not, and were no longer enjoying the encounter at large. This ultimately is the sweet poison that makes WoW so succesful...
I really dislike the trend of making things smaller... not that there shouldn't be 20-mans or 25, or 10-mans.. but everything is on a trend to make smaller and easier.... and ultimately it makes the encounter just not seem epic. I want my epics to be epic... that is all.
It is true that there isn't a lot of variation in 10 mans at level 70, but who says this isn't going to change with the new dungeons?
As I pointed out in an earlier post there will be 10 classes with around 20 different raiding builds. How are you going to fit off-specs like moonkin, ret paladins, elemental shamans into 10 man content? I can absolutely guarantee you now that the casuals will whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine (lets face it, only mages cry more than casuals) because not all specs will be needed in 10 man content. The current level 70 10 man instances allow for off-specs because the fights are pretty generic and aren't particularly hard.
If the 10 mans in WotLK are hard then off-specs will find it hard to get raid spots. Look at the guilds progressing in Sunwell right now? What are they doing? They're stacking shamans. Why? Because the content is hard so they bring classes that give them the best chances of clearing the content. If 10mans in WotLK are hard casuals are going to be faced with the problem of bringing the people with specs they prefer and not clearing content, or bring classes that give them the best chance of clearing content. Blizzard have no choice other than to make the "casual" 10 man content easy to allow for off-specs. In 25 man content you have space for the off-specs because the buffs and utility they bring can be better utilised.
You are forgetting that this game is around for people to be entertained. It is entertainment. Who cares if someone else who has more to do with their life, or would rather not play videogames a lot gets some good gear for once. It doesn't affect you in the slightest.
I played Warcraft: Orcs and Humans way back in 1995. I played WCII the following year and the WCII (my favourite of all) in 1996. I played WC3 and the excellent expansion. Until WoW I had never played a mmorpg in my entire life except for 30 mins of Everquest and Star Wars Galaxies. Neither which I liked. I like the warcraft story (I dont read the books or anything else, just the game story) and the whole concept of dungeons having indentical 25 man and 10 man version existing in the same game is beyond stupid. I don't role play nor am I into fantasy books and stuff, but I do like my computer games to have a story and a concept that makes [b]sense[/b]
And to use your argument so what if I have better gear than you? So what if I've seen more content? Why are casuals so OBSESSED with what the hardcore raiders are doing? Casuals spend more time crying about hardcores having better gear than they actually spent raiding. As I said earlier I believe there has to be two seperate 25 man instances running currently, both for hardcore and casual. The hardcore raiders will do the casual 25 man on their nights off and casuals would progress to the hardcore content once they had farmed the casual content. But after 18 months after the release of the only expansion Blizzard is either too greedy or incompetent to develop enough content to keep both sides happy.
WoW has managed to get 10 million subscribers as it currently is. Even during the days of Naxx there were 3.5 million Euro and North American subscribers. In the 18 months since the release of the expansion Euro and N.A. WoW has increased by 1 million subscribers. Answer me this question: If WoW is sooo ANTI casual then why has it got 10 million subscribers? Even during the days of Naxx millions of people who never say Naxx at lvl 60 were happy to play.
Why is it because someone is a "hardcore" player they somehow deserve to be ignored and ridiculed? Why should harcore players not have unique content designed for them? Why is it only casuals who deserve unique content? Because casuals make up the majority of subscribers? Yes, they do. But around 40,000 people STILL play Everquest. Tell me, are these people still playing EQ "casuals"? Or is it the hardcore EQ'ers still playing the game and making money for the developers 9 years after it was released?
Will you casuals still be playing WoW in 2013? By pissing off the most loyal and dedicated players now Blizzard are cutting their subscriber base in the long term. From the comments most of the casuals have posted in this thread its obvious most of them approach WoW as a glorified single player game. And when the Next Big Thing (NBT) is released you can count on a lot of casuals jumping ship.
Maybe Blizzard are calcuting WoW to have a certain lifespan to be replaced by their own next gen MMOG. World of Diablo, World of Starcraft or something else - who knows.
Why should harcore players not have unique content designed for them? Why is it only casuals who deserve unique content? Because casuals make up the majority of subscribers? Yes, they do. Will you casuals still be playing WoW in 2013? By pissing off the most loyal and dedicated players now Blizzard are cutting their subscriber base in the long term.
You just answered yourself without even realizing it. You just admitted that casuals make up the majority of the subscribers. Therefore it is them that Blizzard is rightfully most concerned with. It' not that they don't care about the hardcore player, they still give them content aimed at them, however it is the casual player that is the most important because they make up the majority of the subscribers. That's just common sense. It's possible that it could effect the number of subscribers in the long term, but you can't sacrifice the much larger number of subscribers in the short term.
Comments
I guess the reality is you many of those posting here really do like an MMO dumbed-down to the the most casual common denominator, and that is OK, WoW is the perfect MMO for that - fun, polished, and with no real need to depend on anyone else. With epic 10 man raids - you really can solo this entire game now without any real social interaction.. (yes grouping for 2 hours and not even talking with strangers is solo'ing IMO.)
But this thread has gotten off topic I think... for a company that only releases an expansion every two years, it is sad to see just more of the same gimmics and instances re-introduced. Yes it is nice that more people will see NAXX, but it will never be the same as it was as a 40-man, and it was HARD. And all raiders do not live in their basement with their mom...
On another point - the lore of the WOW IP has been broken beyond all repair.. so who really cares what they dream up...
I guess the reality is you many of those posting here really do like an MMO dumbed-down to the the most casual common denominator, and that is OK, WoW is the perfect MMO for that - fun, polished, and with no real need to depend on anyone else. With epic 10 man raids - you really can solo this entire game now without any real social interaction.. (yes grouping for 2 hours and not even talking with strangers is solo'ing IMO.)
But this thread has gotten off topic I think... for a company that only releases an expansion every two years, it is sad to see just more of the same gimmics and instances re-introduced. Yes it is nice that more people will see NAXX, but it will never be the same as it was as a 40-man, and it was HARD. And all raiders do not live in their basement with their mom...
On another point - the lore of the WOW IP has been broken beyond all repair.. so who really cares what they dream up...
Naxx was no harder than anything prior to it really. BWL was just as hard when it was new, the same for AQ40 and the next 10 dungeons down the road will be difficult in their own rights. WoW does a really good job of mixing things up enough so it isn't just a series of tank and spank or some artificial mechanics to challenge players.I just don't subscribe to the mindset that the only course of progress needs to be hard core raiding. That is where the majority of my MMO background comes from and something I enjoy, but I have no problem with people taking alternate avenues just so long as equal efforts are required. The last part is a little off balance right now, but it seems to be working all right. Not what I call perfect, but pretty good for a new trend in MMOs.
Personally I don't mind the 2 year wait for expansions as long as they are done well and enough free content is released in between. I've had more than enough of companies dumping generic lifeless expansions onto a game that continually throw the games design, values and balance out the window. I will take slow and well thought out over quick and rushed.
What everyone seems to be missing is the ridiculousness of having the same boss in a 10 man and 25 man? From a storyline point of view its stupid to have someone like Arthas as a 10 man raid. The Lick King/Arthas is supposed to be one of the most powerful entities in the game that can be done in a simple 10 man more. And have the same boss in 2 different instances ... that is stupid.
In WotLK there will be 10 classes. Unless they make the 10mans simple stupid there will be no room for moonkin druids, ret paladins or fury warriors. Even prot paladins will have limited roles unless Blizzard throws up some manufactured scenario where AoE tanking is required on trash. And don't forget we have to fit in Death Knight tanking. How are you going to fit 4 tanks in a 10 man? Prot warrior and paladin, feral druid and death knight, hmm? There aren't many bosses where a prot paladin beats a warrior tank. So casuals will complain that utility specs like moonkin, elemental shaman, ret paladins aren't wanted in 10 mans. And if you can complete the 10 mans with these classes they will be simple and easy. The benefit of bringing these classes to 25mans is that they provide raid and group buffs that outweigh their lower DPS. With only 2 groups for 10mans you don't have things like melee groups and caster groups. And the reason you can complete Karazhan/ZA with off-specs is because they are EASY.
I was in a guild that cleared Hyjal/BT recently only raiding 12 hours a week. 3 nights of 4 hours. Most people watch more than 12 hours of TV a week. Most of the players in the guild were 25-30, virtually all of them worked full time, the only ones who didn't were married women with children who stayed home. I used to play sport that required 2 training nights a week and a match day on Sunday. Roughly about the same as WoW. I used to be in a "casual" guild where we actually raided more often 4 nights of 4 hours but attendance we would have 10-12 of the 25 spots would be different each night. This guild progressed nowhere BECAUSE WE WERE BAD. I even spoke to some of the members when they finally got to 5/6 SSC and 3/4 TK, and guess what, they couldn't even down Vashj because no one put in any effort into it even though they spent more hours attempting it than me new guild who downed Kael and Vashj in much much less time because we PUT THE EFFORT IN.
If you have that little time to devote to a hobby, if your life is THAT exciting that you can't put the effort into learning how to play the game and organising 25 then maybe play a different game?
As I have proven you can see most of the content in the game without being a 40 hour a week raiding guild then these changes are not designed for "casual" players but BAD PLAYERS. I'm all for having simple and easy content for casuals, but why does it have to be the same as 25 man content that progresses the storyline? Because you pay $15 a month too? I pay $15 a month too therefore I DEMAND THAT BLIZZARD GIVE ME A 2200 ARENA RATING. After raiding I had little time for PvP but since I pay the same monthly fee as the PvP'ers I demand to ahve the same ratings, titles and PvP gear as them.
Funny that you should suggest this, when it's largely what they've been doing all along. This is exactly what they are trying to get away from. The only problem I see here is that everyone is assuming 10-man is easier than 25-man, which is most likely not true. Casuals are tired of being treated like second-rate players, even though they pay just as much as the hardcore. Blizzard wants to level the playing field, and allow epic gear across all forms of gameplay. If anything, this is long overdue.
What are you talking about? You have badge gear THAT IS OF TIER 6 LEVEL and you can get the badges from heroics and Karazhan. 3 daily heroics and Karazhan will net you around 35-40 badges a week. You have crafted gear and now that primal nethers and nether vortexs are no longer BoP. Between badge gear, the odd PvP item and crafted gear you can easily make a character BETTER THAN TIER 5.
Or are you just saying you want the best gear in the game without having to work for it? This is what it gets down to. Its not casuals who want these changes, it's the bad players.
all this QQ over someone crying about instances, be glad they are making something YOU can do.
Cause you obvisouly cant get 2200 rating if your demanding it and you obviously cant get in a raid since your complainging about it, so QQ elsewhere
And some people play a game for a challenge. Just because something is hard doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done. If I play a sport and my team gets thrashed should I whinge and complain and say "its only a game, you guys tried too hard?" If I pay the same fee to play in a competition does that entitle me to the same results and rewards as the team who puts in the most effort and plays the best? If your argument is that you should have the same rewards (in anything) because you pay the same amount of money then effort means nothing. If WoW's content is based on your monthly fee then why doesn't Blizzard give hand out epics to everyone when you log on?
I love this argument. Why does every casual need to stereotype and insult the "hardcore" players as no life nerds? I'm all for casuals seeing content. But why does that content have to ruin the storyline of WoW? (reducing main characters in the WoW story to little more than loot bags). Why are you so obsessed with seeing everything hardcore players see? If you have your own casual content created for you then why do you NEED to do exactly what the hardcores are doing? I think it is you who is the fanatical one here, getting all upset because hardcore players get to see content that you don't. So why should that worry you with your exciting and socially brilliant life?
To the OP,
Naxx isn't where Arthas resides and will not be the dungeon you fight him in.
The new badge gear, while kick ass, is not ass good as the newest pvp/pve gear attainable.
Sorry but it's just silly to keep catering to the 5% of the people that actually see the end raids. Enjoy the mass zergs of yester-year while you can because they will slowly disappear and be replaced with ways to be rewarded in smaller groups and solo play for the "masses".
Personally I find it laughable that someone thinks it takes 25+ people to make a encounter challenging.
Explain to me how the Vashj fight can be 10 man'ed and still keep all the aspects of the fight intact. Actually, on my realm Vashj and Kael are pug'ed. So why is it that good pug'ers can clear those bosses but the casuals can't? Of course it wouldnt have anything to do with the casuals who could never down Vashj/Kael (many many many good casual guilds did) were BAD PLAYERS?
Blizzard needs to stop catering the game to bad BAD PLAYERS. What about those of us with jobs and social lives who can still clear content in WoW? After Illidan a bunch of people in my guild decided to take a break because the demands of Sunwell were too high. We might have been able to down Kalecgos but we knew our DPS was waaaaaay too low for Brutallus. It would take quite a few weeks of farming Hyjal/BT to get anywhere in Sunwell. Did we cry and moan and insult all the raiders in Sunwell for being no life losers? Nope. Am I crying because I wont see sunwell? Nope. I wasn't prepared to put the effort to progress in sunwell. Now, if I was a casual I would be saying "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH NERF SUNWELL!!!!! MY LIFE IS WAAAY COOL I DEMAND TO SEE SUNWELL NOW!"
I realise Arthas isn't in Naxxramas but the 10/25 model will be used for all WotLK dungeons. So when he is available to fight (not until the last patch of WotLK) it has been confirmed there will be a 10 man and 25 man version of him.
The badge gear is far superior for high end PvE. One or two items is ok but most PvP is severly lacking in hit rating. For example a destro warlock that doesn't have 202 hit rating is a waste of a raid spot.
OP: First of all, you will NEVER kill Arthas, 10 or 25 men. you can defeat him, but not kill him
Second, nothing that has been said so far remove the fact that THERE COULD BE different boss mobs for the 10-men and the 25-men. The place is the same, but so what? Heroic Dungeons also are the same but they have differences than normal dungeons like extra bosses or extra people in there, so why not replace old bosses with new ones?
Third: It is great news! Finally everyone or almost everyone will have a decent chance of seeing all that top tier content that they never could cause they were not in a super raid guild and were limited to Kara and Zul'aman.
fourth: You are all missing the biggest point of that interview :AERIAL COMBAT! Damn dogfights between griffins and gnome airplanes? Blizzard did it again.... they are all unassuming about their expansion until BAM! they go and reveal something really unique, like this.
Fifth: I saw the movies, I saw the interview and damn. I was so sure I would pass to WAR this autumn... now I think WAR better be really really good to have even a chance to compete with WoTLK... and no, I do not give a damn if it is "the same stuff", I have been playing this game since release and if I was bored of the "same stuff" I would have quit months/years ago.
sixth: A new tank was needed, so few tanks around that is incredible you can actually do some instances, the death knight look cool and sounds fun to play with its own unique mechanics.
seventh: there is a lot more to the expansion than has been revealed so far, nothing has been said yet about siege engines, the fully pvp region with Dalaran nor about the inscription profession.
eigth: you get new quest TYPES in which you rescue someone, jump on the same horse/vehicle and have to defend the thing from assaults with some custom interface and abilities.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Holly crap... this kinda scares me.... cuz blizzard is doing something smart? (not including how they were before WoW loved blizzard before WoW)
Can anyone tell me if this is the end of the world? Anyways thats awsome, my friend resently told me about the badge stuff and i was thinkin, maybe id come back but then i remembered i have a warrior and i xftered servers... gah...
But yea, i jumped on the HATE WoW bandwagon after expericing it (70 warrior raided grulls, Kara) but, it sounds like they are improving the game a lot good for them. Hopefully the new mmos coming out will step it up as well.
Next thing for them to do it work on balance issuses and itemization for class's i know its still horrible and it needs changing badly...
Eh, I cleared every raid pre-bc (mc, bwl, aq, and naxx), and I'm all for smaller group sizes. The problem with raids is that it prevents more casual players from attaining top equipment. Now, that doesn't mean that I think casual players should be able to easily get a full set of top gear, but I do believe that every dungeon should have the ability to drop top tier gear, with smaller instances having a much lower drop rate than raids. This solution allows everyone to enjoy their playstyle without creating a subclass of players. It also allows the developer to create an extremely diverse game by including small, mid, and large group content.
Originally posted by Xiaoki :
Yes, I would rather play a MMO that is actually FUN. The "hardcore" people like you have probably forgot what this thing called "fun" is but I will not play a MMO that takes pride in its archaic gameplay that punches you in the nuts at every opportunity.
This is what I meant by getting off topic... You are putting alot of bias on what is fun/not fun from your perspective. I am OK with that, but understand everyone has their own definition. WOW being carebear = fun?? well for some yes, for some no.... but really do you need to attack me personally?
And, no, grouping with 9 other people is NOT soloing. Also, if you do these raids and never feel like talking to them then its because you're anti-social and that is no fault of WoWs.
Again, why the personal attack - as if I am this anti-social gamer? I am not or never been.. I am simply stating the mechanics of WoW are currently such that you can do most anything with a selfish solo mindset.. i found PUG dungeon running to be increasingly anti-social. The way blizzard gives out awards does not discourage this.
Also, I'm not sure what you mean by the "same gimmicks". What gimmicks are they re-releasing?
This is really the meat of my frustration with blizzard currently... you may agree of disagree, i will not bash you for it.
1. Aerial combat.. great idea.. will be strictly in a controlled zone area, unaffected by the greater world... basically a cute mini-game (yeah i am gonna say carebear candy). Aion is trying to pull this off as a core game mechanic... maybe they will, maybe they won't, but that takes alot more balls.
2. Siege weapon open world PVP zone... 1 new zone with siege weapons... again cool, I loved AV (old school AV) maybe some of the people who are tired of arena idiots will have some fun.... Warhammer is designing their entire server realm around this kind of mechanic.. again if they can pull it off, wow! just sooo much coolness and fun..
3. one new class.. spawned at level 55... sigh... what ever happened to hero classes? (especially when the previous expansion just traded a class to each side...)
4. 10/25 man duplicate dungeons... immersion breaker for me big time. it makes me feel like i am in a childen's theme park, not an evolving parallel world.
The new combat system in AOC has been bashed as gimmicky button mashing, and who knows how The Chronicles of Spellborn will turn out, but at least both these games are trying to make a more immersive complex combat system.
WoW just takes a very old system and strings it along ad nauseum. I guess I feel like I have already been there/done that back in EQ. (yeah re-read your first reply here...) I only get personally annoyed because IMO many of the posters ignorantly salivate over everything blizzard does, clueless to how many of their ideas and plucked from this or that game.
Sorcielle - you yourself said WoW was fun. Although that was right after you said it was "dumbed-down to the most casual denominator".
In the same post you said "just more of the same gimmicks". Which doesn't seem to be true but you don't like them anyway. You said they were "carebear candy".
So, basically you say one thing then say another when it suits your needs to mindlessly bash WoW.
The keyword here is "mindless(ly)".
Why is it that, as a culture, we are more comfortable seeing two men holding guns than holding hands? ~Ernest Gaines
I just want to know where the idea got started that 10 man opposed to 25 man means casual rather than hard core? Isn't it possible for a hard core guild to have just 10 members as opposed to 25? The way I read Blizzard's comments were that some people just think less is more. Personally I like the 10 man raids better than the 25 man raids. My experience has been that in 10 mans, it's a more relaxed atmosphere. Everyone isn't so worried that if one person talks in Vent that 5 other people are gonna tell him to "clear vent". That's not more casual, that's just more fun. And contrary to popular belief, it's not really that much tougher to find 25 people to raid with as opposed to 10 people, it's just easier to find 10 people that you enjoy playing with than 25.
The keyword here is "mindless(ly)".
Sigh..... I love how some of these posts jump on anything I say positive about WoW and turn it arond, -as if by saying something positive it makes my argument weak or incoherent. - and thus my disappointment is due to my own irrationality.
@Coffee - some of your points about how siege works in WAR are outdated or just plain wrong. What else can I say to that?
My goal with these posts was really not to start a fanboy flame war, but rather to express my persoanl disappointment about duplicate 10/25 dungeons. I can only repeat that it feels gimmicky to me... If you want to do 25 man content, you should be able to find a 30-man guild and do it. The class roles in a 10-man dungeon ultimately become limited and even more cookie cutter. At least with 25 people there is a quite a bit of variance to how the encounter can be sculpted.
It is true that there isn't a lot of variation in 10 mans at level 70, but who says this isn't going to change with the new dungeons? Plus you must not have been around for WoW at level 60. If you wanted to compete in pvp at all, hours and hours of playing time were required. Plus a lot of people didn't get to see some of the cool content that was around. Naxx is a perfect example of this. It was one of the coolest 40 man dungeons in the game. I'm glad they're bringing it back so people who didn't see it can enjoy it. You are forgetting that this game is around for people to be entertained. It is entertainment. Who cares if someone else who has more to do with their life, or would rather not play videogames a lot gets some good gear for once. It doesn't affect you in the slightest. As long as you are progressing like you want to it shouldn't matter. You are playing the game the way you want to and are being entertained by it. Casual Players are playing the game they want to, and will enjoy it. Everyone wins.
Small raid numbers mean more contribution from each person on your team. Small numbers also mean less scheduling, few wipes due to idiots not following commands, easier to organize for a fight.
I remeber the 40 man fight for C'thun. That was absolutely ridiculous. 40 people following a perfect pattern. One peron's mistake could kill 5 - 10 other people instantly.
40 man and even 25 mans raids only have 5 skilled people in them. The tank, secondary tank, main healer, puller, secondary healer. The rest are a bunch of slackers pressing 2 buttons and moving when CTRaid tells them to move.
When the raids shrunk down to 10 mans I noticed much more activity form every member of the raid group. Each person had a specific job during boss battles.
C'Thun... I think was the most precise encounter ever made by blizzard.. yes one person' s small mistake and next thing you know, inevitible wipe. The encounter demoralized and almost broke up our guild... but it was worth it IMO.
I am not saying there is no place for 10-man raids. Back in the old days strat and scholo, BRD, BRS totally had their place.. and now with them more set up in raid style, that is fine.
I do disagree that there are only 5 skilled players in a raid. Yes that is true for some of the more tired encounters, but many of them were cleverly designed so this specifically wasn't the case... no I am not going to break down each boss fight to prove my point. Yes some people have a more important role in an encounter. still the ability to get 40 people working in unison is what i always thought was so cool about raiding... unfortunately people got so hooked on the gear hamster wheel... that during the fight people were just sweating if 'the sword' would drop or not, and were no longer enjoying the encounter at large. This ultimately is the sweet poison that makes WoW so succesful...
I really dislike the trend of making things smaller... not that there shouldn't be 20-mans or 25, or 10-mans.. but everything is on a trend to make smaller and easier.... and ultimately it makes the encounter just not seem epic. I want my epics to be epic... that is all.
As I pointed out in an earlier post there will be 10 classes with around 20 different raiding builds. How are you going to fit off-specs like moonkin, ret paladins, elemental shamans into 10 man content? I can absolutely guarantee you now that the casuals will whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine (lets face it, only mages cry more than casuals) because not all specs will be needed in 10 man content. The current level 70 10 man instances allow for off-specs because the fights are pretty generic and aren't particularly hard.
If the 10 mans in WotLK are hard then off-specs will find it hard to get raid spots. Look at the guilds progressing in Sunwell right now? What are they doing? They're stacking shamans. Why? Because the content is hard so they bring classes that give them the best chances of clearing the content. If 10mans in WotLK are hard casuals are going to be faced with the problem of bringing the people with specs they prefer and not clearing content, or bring classes that give them the best chance of clearing content. Blizzard have no choice other than to make the "casual" 10 man content easy to allow for off-specs. In 25 man content you have space for the off-specs because the buffs and utility they bring can be better utilised.
I played Warcraft: Orcs and Humans way back in 1995. I played WCII the following year and the WCII (my favourite of all) in 1996. I played WC3 and the excellent expansion. Until WoW I had never played a mmorpg in my entire life except for 30 mins of Everquest and Star Wars Galaxies. Neither which I liked. I like the warcraft story (I dont read the books or anything else, just the game story) and the whole concept of dungeons having indentical 25 man and 10 man version existing in the same game is beyond stupid. I don't role play nor am I into fantasy books and stuff, but I do like my computer games to have a story and a concept that makes [b]sense[/b]
And to use your argument so what if I have better gear than you? So what if I've seen more content? Why are casuals so OBSESSED with what the hardcore raiders are doing? Casuals spend more time crying about hardcores having better gear than they actually spent raiding. As I said earlier I believe there has to be two seperate 25 man instances running currently, both for hardcore and casual. The hardcore raiders will do the casual 25 man on their nights off and casuals would progress to the hardcore content once they had farmed the casual content. But after 18 months after the release of the only expansion Blizzard is either too greedy or incompetent to develop enough content to keep both sides happy.
WoW has managed to get 10 million subscribers as it currently is. Even during the days of Naxx there were 3.5 million Euro and North American subscribers. In the 18 months since the release of the expansion Euro and N.A. WoW has increased by 1 million subscribers. Answer me this question: If WoW is sooo ANTI casual then why has it got 10 million subscribers? Even during the days of Naxx millions of people who never say Naxx at lvl 60 were happy to play.
Why is it because someone is a "hardcore" player they somehow deserve to be ignored and ridiculed? Why should harcore players not have unique content designed for them? Why is it only casuals who deserve unique content? Because casuals make up the majority of subscribers? Yes, they do. But around 40,000 people STILL play Everquest. Tell me, are these people still playing EQ "casuals"? Or is it the hardcore EQ'ers still playing the game and making money for the developers 9 years after it was released?
Will you casuals still be playing WoW in 2013? By pissing off the most loyal and dedicated players now Blizzard are cutting their subscriber base in the long term. From the comments most of the casuals have posted in this thread its obvious most of them approach WoW as a glorified single player game. And when the Next Big Thing (NBT) is released you can count on a lot of casuals jumping ship.
Maybe Blizzard are calcuting WoW to have a certain lifespan to be replaced by their own next gen MMOG. World of Diablo, World of Starcraft or something else - who knows.
You just answered yourself without even realizing it. You just admitted that casuals make up the majority of the subscribers. Therefore it is them that Blizzard is rightfully most concerned with. It' not that they don't care about the hardcore player, they still give them content aimed at them, however it is the casual player that is the most important because they make up the majority of the subscribers. That's just common sense. It's possible that it could effect the number of subscribers in the long term, but you can't sacrifice the much larger number of subscribers in the short term.