Guess we all need a pre-wow history lesson. I hate to do it, but some need to be educated on it I guess.
History
Leet originated within bulletin board systems in the 1980s, where having "elite" status on a BBS allowed a user access to file folders, games, and special chat rooms, often including archives of pirated software, pornography, or text files documenting topics such as how to construct explosives and manufacture illegal drugs.[3] One theory is that it was developed to defeat text filters created by BBS or Internet Relay Chatsystem operators for message boards to discourage the discussion of forbidden topics, like cracking and hacking. However, creative misspellings and ASCII-art-derived words were also a way to attempt to indicate one was knowledgeable about the culture of computer users. Once reserved to use by hackers, crackers, and script kiddies, Leet has since entered the mainstream.It is now also used to mock newbies, or newcomers, on web sites, or in gaming communities. Some consider emoticons and ASCII art, like smiley faces, to be Leet, while others maintain that Leet consists of only symbolic word encryption. More obscure forms of Leet, involving the use of symbol combinations and almost no letters or numbers, continue to be used for its original purpose of encrypted communication. It is also sometimes used as a script language.
Vocabulary
Many words originally derived from Leet slang have now become part of the modern Internet slang, such as "pwned".The primary driving force of new vocabulary in Leet is the need to describe new phenomena. Another force is common misspelling and mistyping such as "teh", and intentional misspellings, especially the "z" at the end of words ("skillz").Another prominent example of a surviving Leet expression is w00t, an exclamation of joy.
New words (or corruptions thereof) may arise from a need to make one's username unique. As any given Internet service reaches more people, the number of names available to a given user is drastically reduced. While many users may wish to have the username "CatLover," for example, in many cases it is only possible for one user to have the moniker. As such, degradations of the name may evolve, such as "C@L0vr." As the Leet cipher is highly dynamic, there is a wider possibility for multiple users to share the "same" name, through combinations of spelling and transliterations.
Additionally, leet—the word itself—can be found in the screennames and gamertags of many Internet and video games. Use of the term in such a manner announces a high level of skill, though such an announcement may be seen as baseless hubris.
So leet speak was derived in the 1980's by VERY intelligent computer users known as hackers. Which was about, oh I don't know a decade before World of Warcraft was even made. On top of the that, what we have now as "leet speak" is a watered down internet slang version of the now extinct verson of the hacker language.
So whenever I see a post like this, were people think that the wow kiddies invented pwn, noob, lmao or stfu, it makes me sad.
Leet speak was brought into mainstream PC gaming not by MMO players like EQ, which some would have suggested, but instead by FPS players such as the very ancient and old quake 1 and 2 and counterstrike 1.3-1.6
Yes the wow kiddies use it, but just because they think it makes them sound cool, which it does not. They in no way shape or form however brought leet speak into mainstream gaming. You can thank the super users known as hackers for that, which I would bet a million dollars are leaps and bounds more "intelligent" than the OP.
I'm not sure I yet understand what WoW has actually "dumbed down". They have made things more accessible, yes...but dumbed down...no. The progression system they use is COPY PASTE from every other MMO in circulation (that mattered) and the structure behind its combat is, point blank, the same as well. The controls are actually more complex than most of its predecessors in many ways...and the fact it allows lua scripting opens the game to more intelligent users than most do as well.
The travel systems it implemented weren't "dumbed down" either...they were smart moves. Travel time can be equated to "wasted time". Plus, having faster travel to locations already accessed opened the player to its own community more.
From a Raid perspective...the encounters are by far MILES ahead of anything ever released. Long gone are the days of tank and spank.
What has WoW dumbed down? Seriously? If you can answer that for me...then maybe you could also tell me how, in doing so, its affected its players? So far as I have ever seen...you can't trash on WoW for ANYTHING that you couldn't also trash on every other MMO ever made for.
Perhaps we should be saying: "Are MMO's making people stupid?"
MMOs just reflect attitudes in popular culture, general usage of english has been degrading rapidly for quite a long time. The 'L33t' speak fad wasn't caused by WoW, it is just the latest & most annoying example of language degradation. I know that language has always evolved, but current trends seem to be worse than ever, at least IMO (deliberate joke).
Everquest does not make people smarter or teach inter personal skills. I played the first Everquest for quite a while & it was full of players begging in the shout channels, kill stealing & last but definitely not least, constantly shouting 'camped' even though the rules clearly stated there was no such thing.
Luckily EQ2 learned from the mistakes of EQ1 and made many of the worst excesses impossible by changing the game mechanics, but even now it is full of players shouting 'L33t' speak gibberish across zones e.g. "Max DPS wanted for new HardCore Raiding Guild".
I haven't played WoW as it just didn't appeal to me. but the assertion that "Everquest makes people smart, but WoW makes people stupid" is just retarded.
If you can't "Have your cake & eat it too", then how can "The proof of the pudding be in the eating"?
Perhaps we should be saying: "Are MMO's making people stupid?"
Or perhaps, "are MMOs making people smarter?"
WoW might dumb-you-down but collecting boar tusks and spending hours doing the same things, but another game might make you smarter by combining complexity, depth, story, and challenge in its content.
If it can make a person dumber, then it should be able to make a person smarter.
Originally posted by Redslayer So, What do you consider a full grown adult?
Edit - Well I'm going to bed now, got to get up early for work, So I'll check back tomorrow to see what you think is makes someone a full grown adult, Which I'm sure you'll apply a number to.
Why dont you ask the High-school teacher?
Ah yes, because that makes sense, Because I'm around high-school teachers every day.
It seems you have no 'real' reason, to say I'm not a full grown adult, Other then to troll me
So kid, Have a nice night.
Anyway on topic, I don't think WoW can actually make you stupid, Unless you already are. On the other hand, I definetly wouldn't learn any-where near as much in WoW, As I did playing Ryzom. Because Ryzom had an extremely mature community, it was rare to see anyone under 20 playing. (I only knew 2 people, one was 18, and the other was 16, out of a friends list of over 70 people, And both acted mature, Well most of the time lol).
The random idiots you run into in WoW rather often, were almost non-existant there. Miss that game...
~Redslayer-Saga of Ryzom~ Active again! ~Kinch/Lotu-WoW~ Retired True RedSlayer - Eve ~ Current Primary game
LOL man, all mmo's make peoples brains stagnant, its not the game itself of any one in particular, its the sitting there for hours grabbing quick junky foods as to meals with essential vitamins, step back and take a look at hmmmm, lets say a 2 month time frame from just before you found yer favorite mmo and then compare how you feel physically and mentally 2 months into it, kinda feel like yer ''normal thinking is somewhat muddy?, put on a few pounds, yer legs fall asleep fast? N ormal everyday things that you did pre mmo's now feel laboriuos and make you somewhat winded?
Unless the mmo was about real life history, or some weird trig based mmo , none of them make you smarter, and thinking one makes you dumber than another mmo kinda glares the fact of what sitting and playing mmo's has done to your intelligence when yer basing yer intelligence to one game and another and all other useful things you have learned have oozed out yer ear from yer brain becoming stale playing endl;ess hours of mmo's no matter what the title,
I would say that it depends of your level of exposure. Just like eating junk food moderately won't affect your health, playing WoW moderately won't affect your brain.
Survey says: WoW is dumb, and makes people dumb. So play it moderately.
All things in moderation, including moderation.
Is WoW dumbed-down because we, the consumer, are dumber?
Or has WoW dumbed-us-down?
This is all based on the flawed premises that playing a MMORPG can affect one's intelligence, and that these games require a person to be fairly intelligent to enjoy them. So your questions are utterly redundant outside of quite pointless hypothesis.
You don't need to be intelligent to succeed at these games, I've met plenty of idiots at end game in every MMORPG. All you need is a lot of spare time.
Consider this: WoW took the formula of MMORPGs and improved the design to be more logical, making it easier to learn. Whereas previous MMORPGs were designed by newbie game designers that gave us crude unintuitive interfaces.
Does suffering with poorly designed interfaces and gameplay make you more intelligent? I would argue it's the opposite. Consider these arguments the next time you consider WoW and it's players "dumbed down".
You are not the MMORPG you play. Consider all the doctors, lawyers, game developers playing WoW, and then question whether you think you're more intelligent than they are. Notice how pointless this debate is?
It's quite pathetic really.
Bingo. Too many people try to build up their ego, because of the game they play. I find it really amusing, though. Maybe that is pathetic, also.
I understand it is trite to say, "WoW dumbs people down." There is, however, an element of truth to it.
WoW has invited WoW=sp33k, which is communicating without actually 1) saying anything or 2) adhering to rules of proper grammar. Moreover, the gameplay/content in WoW requires little to no strategic thinking, planning, or any other skills of the mind. You kill five boars, you collect five boar tusks, and you return to the NPC with five boar tusks. You then obtain a new quest. The community in WoW lends itself to this, and most members of the community do not speak English, which creates it own language barriers that exacerbate the problems of WoW-sp33k.
[If you read to this point, you probably do not suffer from WoW's attention deficit disorder.]
[Edit: by the way, sense my humor and sarcasm are not detectable online, this is a joke - mostly.] [btw - it is supposed to be since - wink*wink*. Points if you detect other errors.]
I hope you didn't get your education from mmos. I hope that no one gets their education from mmos. What would this world come to? I think they should have voice chat in all games, that way people can actually laugh instead of typing "LOL". We have a generation of young people lacking real social skills because they are always typing to each other rather than speaking. It is entertaining that they type all big and bad, but then you hear then on headset and they are shy and afraid to speak.
I understand it is trite to say, "WoW dumbs people down." There is, however, an element of truth to it.
WoW has invited WoW=sp33k, which is communicating without actually 1) saying anything or 2) adhering to rules of proper grammar. Moreover, the gameplay/content in WoW requires little to no strategic thinking, planning, or any other skills of the mind. You kill five boars, you collect five boar tusks, and you return to the NPC with five boar tusks. You then obtain a new quest. The community in WoW lends itself to this, and most members of the community do not speak English, which creates it own language barriers that exacerbate the problems of WoW-sp33k.
[If you read to this point, you probably do not suffer from WoW's attention deficit disorder.]
[Edit: by the way, sense my humor and sarcasm are not detectable online, this is a joke - mostly.] [btw - it is supposed to be since - wink*wink*. Points if you detect other errors.]
I hope you didn't get your education from mmos. I hope that no one gets their education from mmos. What would this world come to? I think they should have voice chat in all games, that way people can actually laugh instead of typing "LOL". We have a generation of young people lacking real social skills because they are always typing to each other rather than speaking. It is entertaining that they type all big and bad, but then you hear then on headset and they are shy and afraid to speak.
Every professional today has a blackberry. I can guarantee you almost every single one of us is typing "LOL" and "LMAO", and whatever else you're so appalled by. Don't be one of those old, bitter people that can't adapt to the times. Its the 21st century, my friend. Adapt or be left in the dust.
Perhaps we should be saying: "Are MMO's making people stupid?"
Or perhaps, "are MMOs making people smarter?"
WoW might dumb-you-down but collecting boar tusks and spending hours doing the same things, but another game might make you smarter by combining complexity, depth, story, and challenge in its content.
If it can make a person dumber, then it should be able to make a person smarter.
I've some rather terrible news for you, friend. There is no complexity to these games. If you honestly find anything about one single MMO on the market today complex...or even mildly deep, then you are the very EXAMPLE of how all MMO's are making people stupid. The deepest and most complex thing I've seen come from MMO gaming is Lua Scripting, which is offered by WoW. You DO have to have some brains to do that kind of stuff.
Otherwise, the mechanics require nothing more than the most rudimentary of math skills...the effective use of skills little more than common sense, and the stories are junk thats been ripped off and beaten to death by fantasy novels for years. To put it bluntly...if EQ made you smarter (as you suggest) then you weren't very intelligent to begin with. If the simplistic aggro systems these games use felt complex to you, then I would also go so far as to say you've never played anything with any real challenge in your life.
I've been gaming since I was 5 years old. I'm 25 now...thats two full decades of watching this market grow and change. Of all gaming genres, MMO gaming uses the LEAST brains and amounts to little more than simplistic time sinks to drain people JUSt like you of your money for game play which has long since been outdated. Whats most ironic is that you are trashing WoW...which has been the only MMO YET produced which made great changes to the amount of thought used in PvE content AND gave full support for Lua Scripting used in its UI modification. In short, they are the "smartest" MMO company around.
I hope you didn't get your education from mmos. I hope that no one gets their education from mmos. What would this world come to? I think they should have voice chat in all games, that way people can actually laugh instead of typing "LOL". We have a generation of young people lacking real social skills because they are always typing to each other rather than speaking. It is entertaining that they type all big and bad, but then you hear then on headset and they are shy and afraid to speak.
Every professional today has a blackberry. I can guarantee you almost every single one of them are typing "LOL" and "LMAO", and whatever else you're so appalled by. Don't be one of those old, bitter people that can't adapt to the times. Its the 21st century, my friend. Adapt or be left in the dust.
I think you took that wrong. You can type "LOL" in fact I do all the time. But I also do not say it outloud, nor am I lacking in actual speaking skills. I never said I was appalled by this, not in the least. My point being that alot of these people are lacking in actual speaking ability because they are so used to typing these days. I have heard a guy say " LOL" in mic instead of laughing .. and this was normal for him. With voice chat people do not lose as much as the actual person interaction as they do in the typing, people are also more likely to be themsleves rather than trying to make themselves into something they are not.
I hope you didn't get your education from mmos. I hope that no one gets their education from mmos. What would this world come to? I think they should have voice chat in all games, that way people can actually laugh instead of typing "LOL". We have a generation of young people lacking real social skills because they are always typing to each other rather than speaking. It is entertaining that they type all big and bad, but then you hear then on headset and they are shy and afraid to speak.
Every professional today has a blackberry. I can guarantee you almost every single one of them are typing "LOL" and "LMAO", and whatever else you're so appalled by. Don't be one of those old, bitter people that can't adapt to the times. Its the 21st century, my friend. Adapt or be left in the dust.
I think you took that wrong. You can type "LOL" in fact I do all the time. But I also do not say it outloud, nor am I lacking in actual speaking skills. I never said I was appalled by this, not in the least. My point being that alot of these people are lacking in actual speaking ability because they are so used to typing these days. I have heard a guy say " LOL" in mic instead of laughing .. and this was normal for him. With voice chat people do not lose as much as the actual person interaction as they do in the typing, people are also more likely to be themsleves rather than trying to make themselves into something they are not.
Different people. I don't say LOL outloud, but I've heard others say it. Who am I to condemn, or ridicule this person for saying LOL? I'm not that petty. People are shy, I highly doubt that has to do with typing and MMOs. There were shy people long before that.
Sorry, I don't feel MMOs are desroying the world's communication ability. Sure, typing is not as personal as talking over a mic, and talking over a mic isn't as personal as standing face to face.
Sorry, I don't feel MMOs are desroying the world's communication ability. Sure, typing is not as personal as talking over a mic, and talking over a mic isn't as personal as standing face to face.
I agree ha MMOs are no desroying communicaion abiliy. I've been playing MMOs for years and I hink ha i's only improved my abiliy o express myself.
Sorry, I don't feel MMOs are desroying the world's communication ability. Sure, typing is not as personal as talking over a mic, and talking over a mic isn't as personal as standing face to face.
What I find interesting is that we can even SAY that communication is being destroyed, and actually believe it. Communication cannot be "destroyed". It can only be added to. The fact is...if I say "LOL" out loud, every last one of us would know exactly what I meant and how it pertained to the conversation. That means that "LOL" was valid as a communication device.
In the end, as long as whatever is being used is both understood and effective....its a perfectly FINE communication device. To say otherwise is pure ignorance since the entire American English language is nothing more than a pure bastardization of the ACTUAL English language it was spawned from since inception.
Another thread being made on MMORPG.COM JUST to insult people who enjoy the most beautiful World of Warcraft You DO know that WOW rules the world in MMORPG. Just like Mercedes is the best selling car in Germany, Wow is the best selling MMORPG in the world. Neither have ANYTHING to do with MacDonalds
I think that you can learn a lot in mmos. Take me as an example. I learned a lot of english during my time in mmos, especially things you won't learn in school. Most teachers have been in GB ages ago, they teach english from a 20-30 year old dictionary.. So i can definitely say: MMOS tought me english. Most of my spoken english comes from endless sessions in voicecoms on international servers. (Thanks eve-online for being just one world!) You don't learn how to speak fluently in school. Six hours a week is NOT enough at all..
I can think of several other things that you can learn in mmos. Leadership, calculating the roi in crafting heavy games, time management...the list goes on. People often forget that most mmos are social environments. Okay, there are the msogs (massively singleplayer online games), lotro comes to mind, but even in that world there are chat channels and grouping. Mmo-players are not the stereotypical nerds sitting in front of a screen anymore, typing things like "take rake" or "go north" in an interpreter, and the times of grues eating said nerds are long past, too. (Yes, maybe some have only evolved into nerds typing things like "lolololol" or "lulz newb gb2wow" into a chat window, with other player hoping they would get eaten by grues..but you get the picture)
Having said that, i think there is worse. Serious Sam 2, anyone?
Sorry, I don't feel MMOs are desroying the world's communication ability. Sure, typing is not as personal as talking over a mic, and talking over a mic isn't as personal as standing face to face.
What I find interesting is that we can even SAY that communication is being destroyed, and actually believe it. Communication cannot be "destroyed". It can only be added to. The fact is...if I say "LOL" out loud, every last one of us would know exactly what I meant and how it pertained to the conversation. That means that "LOL" was valid as a communication device.
In the end, as long as whatever is being used is both understood and effective....its a perfectly FINE communication device. To say otherwise is pure ignorance since the entire American English language is nothing more than a pure bastardization of the ACTUAL English language it was spawned from since inception.
A level of discourse *can* be lessened with profanity, slang, etc.. If I were communicating with a member of a board of directors, a C-level employee, or any prospective client, I would choose my language to be as clear and concise as possible - regardless of the form of communication (oral, e-mail, even via a blackberry). I certainly would not use leet-speak in such a conversation.
There are situations where words or slang can be understood and be counter-productive to one's goals because they are inappropriate given the social context. For example, there are profanities that are almost universally known that would add emphasis during a conversation but be wholly inappropriate to use given the social context.
I can't put stock into your argument that anything is a perfectly fine communication device as long as it is understood and effective.
One could understand the meaning of a completely novel word solely on the basis of the context of the sentence. Both syntax and semantics from other words in the sentence provide context for an unknown word. But there is context from a conversation *beyond* semantic and syntactical cues (e.g., pragmatics). As an example, what if you overheard one mechanic ask another "Does your car run well?" - and the second mechanic replied, "Well, the air conditioner runs fine!". There aren't any semantic or syntactic cues in the reply that would imply that the car does not run well.
All of these cues could allow one to insert a novel word into a sentence and have it be understood during a conversation. But to say that any time this is done and it is understood, that it is "perfectly fine" ignores other conventions of language. There are words (an grammatical structures) in the Japanese language that would be considered informal or impolite if used in an incorrect context. Regardless of cross-cultural and cross-linguistic differences, there is a common principle of politeness and social appropriateness of language in Japanese and English. The idea that any word is a perfectly fine communication device as long as it was understood would clearly defy this principle.
To go a bit deeper, sociolinguistics includes the study of styles and social registers in language. Within the same dialect, there can be multiple styles - and a single speaker may employ different styles depending on the situation. For example, I may use one style when talking to a close personal friend, a very different style when talking to a superordinate in business, and a third style when trying to convey a point on a internet forum. Some styles may include social registers - for example, the use of honorifics when speaking to a superordinate in business.
There are even style guides (like the widely known Elements of Style by Strunk) - and the point of these style guides is not to say what is "right or wrong" or whether something will or not be understood, but to inform one about the conventions that are appropriate and useful for having the desired effect given the audience (that's why there are different English style guides for different purposes / audiences).
But you don't need a style guide to know not to put LOL at the end of a job description on your resume, and you shouldn't need one to know that you shouldn't use ROFLCOPTER in a sentence when you go to your next job interview, even if you are certain the interviewer would know what you meant.
Neither games make you smarter, especially as I could make a wisecrack like 'Mario made me smarter' and everyone would quite rightfully think bs. This being said Everquest was more challenging than WoW because it was when everyone was learning how to play, and the job of learning how to play those classes was a lot more of a learning curve than WoW and it's classes, especially as you also had extra elemtns like in mana management,and key abilities being restricted rather than farmed out to every class. However, admittedly Everquest did have some 'auto-attack' classes which the generalization I've made maybe doesn't apply so much.
Is the pedantic style I've used above suited for this forum? Is it suitable because each word could be understood, or because the style is suitable for the audience?
Is the pedantic style I've used above suited for this forum? Is it suitable because each word could be understood, or because the style is suitable for the audience?
A bit of both, though communication has always been about what works in a given situation and context.
It seems with your actual reply to me (which I didn't quote because we'd have a page long quote-on-quote thing) was centered around why, based on the fact that some communication is bad situationally, it cannot be good at all. First, I want to say that nearly all of these "Bad Words" or "Unprofessional" words we have as only defined as such because we have programmed ourselves to think that way. This aside, my actual point wasn't about whether everything we say and do is wholesale socially acceptable. It was directed at the fact that one cannot DESTROY language by simply adding to it.
The largest factor here is that our entire western English language IS trash. When we came here and founded this country, certain powerful figures here decided to change some of the core concepts of the old language in a greater effort to divide us from the lands we hailed from. In short, US English is nothing more than ghetto slang based off of actual English. So when I hear people talk about internet slang, or actual ghetto slang, as though its destroying our language...I can barely keep a straight face. Granted, I hate many of the terms used in either myself...but that has little to do with how much its destroying my own language and, instead, how it makes the user of such things look. Language is one of the first things a person notices about you, and is key in first impression.
What I find interesting is that we can even SAY that communication is being destroyed, and actually believe it. Communication cannot be "destroyed". It can only be added to. The fact is...if I say "LOL" out loud, every last one of us would know exactly what I meant and how it pertained to the conversation. That means that "LOL" was valid as a communication device. In the end, as long as whatever is being used is both understood and effective....its a perfectly FINE communication device. To say otherwise is pure ignorance since the entire American English language is nothing more than a pure bastardization of the ACTUAL English language it was spawned from since inception.
LOL Is supposed to stand for LAugh out loud? Whatever happened to just laughing? If you are not laughing what is the point of LOL? Yes knowing what it means but the fact that you are saying "LOL" instead of just is not the same. When you really Laugh your brain produces endorphins, saying "LOL" replaces that as well? You plan on saying "LOL" during a job interview? Anyhow, the point being is that people can be very good typers but then have no sense of presentation in person. When I hear these people on voice chat they seem like they have little or no verbal communication skills, which is actually more important than having typing skills. You are going to be solving issues with your wife via text one day? Do job interviews via text? Give a presentation via text only? I hope not, I sure wouldn't hire you. From what I have seen is that alot of the people that are very good with communicating via text are not very good communicating in person. I think that actually adding voice chat in games would help reduce that, Teach the kids how to speak properly, it seems they already know how to type.
Comments
Guess we all need a pre-wow history lesson. I hate to do it, but some need to be educated on it I guess.
History
Leet originated within bulletin board systems in the 1980s, where having "elite" status on a BBS allowed a user access to file folders, games, and special chat rooms, often including archives of pirated software, pornography, or text files documenting topics such as how to construct explosives and manufacture illegal drugs.[3] One theory is that it was developed to defeat text filters created by BBS or Internet Relay Chat system operators for message boards to discourage the discussion of forbidden topics, like cracking and hacking. However, creative misspellings and ASCII-art-derived words were also a way to attempt to indicate one was knowledgeable about the culture of computer users. Once reserved to use by hackers, crackers, and script kiddies, Leet has since entered the mainstream.It is now also used to mock newbies, or newcomers, on web sites, or in gaming communities. Some consider emoticons and ASCII art, like smiley faces, to be Leet, while others maintain that Leet consists of only symbolic word encryption. More obscure forms of Leet, involving the use of symbol combinations and almost no letters or numbers, continue to be used for its original purpose of encrypted communication. It is also sometimes used as a script language.
Vocabulary
Many words originally derived from Leet slang have now become part of the modern Internet slang, such as "pwned".The primary driving force of new vocabulary in Leet is the need to describe new phenomena. Another force is common misspelling and mistyping such as "teh", and intentional misspellings, especially the "z" at the end of words ("skillz").Another prominent example of a surviving Leet expression is w00t, an exclamation of joy.
New words (or corruptions thereof) may arise from a need to make one's username unique. As any given Internet service reaches more people, the number of names available to a given user is drastically reduced. While many users may wish to have the username "CatLover," for example, in many cases it is only possible for one user to have the moniker. As such, degradations of the name may evolve, such as "C@L0vr." As the Leet cipher is highly dynamic, there is a wider possibility for multiple users to share the "same" name, through combinations of spelling and transliterations.
Additionally, leet—the word itself—can be found in the screennames and gamertags of many Internet and video games. Use of the term in such a manner announces a high level of skill, though such an announcement may be seen as baseless hubris.
So leet speak was derived in the 1980's by VERY intelligent computer users known as hackers. Which was about, oh I don't know a decade before World of Warcraft was even made. On top of the that, what we have now as "leet speak" is a watered down internet slang version of the now extinct verson of the hacker language.
So whenever I see a post like this, were people think that the wow kiddies invented pwn, noob, lmao or stfu, it makes me sad.
Leet speak was brought into mainstream PC gaming not by MMO players like EQ, which some would have suggested, but instead by FPS players such as the very ancient and old quake 1 and 2 and counterstrike 1.3-1.6
Yes the wow kiddies use it, but just because they think it makes them sound cool, which it does not. They in no way shape or form however brought leet speak into mainstream gaming. You can thank the super users known as hackers for that, which I would bet a million dollars are leaps and bounds more "intelligent" than the OP.
WoW dumbs people down? Get a life seriously.
GRATZ Recant that was your 1337 post.
BUT
does that make you 1337?
*shrugs*
who knows.
You should take a screenshot though because that is pretty cool.
I'm not sure I yet understand what WoW has actually "dumbed down". They have made things more accessible, yes...but dumbed down...no. The progression system they use is COPY PASTE from every other MMO in circulation (that mattered) and the structure behind its combat is, point blank, the same as well. The controls are actually more complex than most of its predecessors in many ways...and the fact it allows lua scripting opens the game to more intelligent users than most do as well.
The travel systems it implemented weren't "dumbed down" either...they were smart moves. Travel time can be equated to "wasted time". Plus, having faster travel to locations already accessed opened the player to its own community more.
From a Raid perspective...the encounters are by far MILES ahead of anything ever released. Long gone are the days of tank and spank.
What has WoW dumbed down? Seriously? If you can answer that for me...then maybe you could also tell me how, in doing so, its affected its players? So far as I have ever seen...you can't trash on WoW for ANYTHING that you couldn't also trash on every other MMO ever made for.
Perhaps we should be saying: "Are MMO's making people stupid?"
MMOs just reflect attitudes in popular culture, general usage of english has been degrading rapidly for quite a long time. The 'L33t' speak fad wasn't caused by WoW, it is just the latest & most annoying example of language degradation. I know that language has always evolved, but current trends seem to be worse than ever, at least IMO (deliberate joke).
Everquest does not make people smarter or teach inter personal skills. I played the first Everquest for quite a while & it was full of players begging in the shout channels, kill stealing & last but definitely not least, constantly shouting 'camped' even though the rules clearly stated there was no such thing.
Luckily EQ2 learned from the mistakes of EQ1 and made many of the worst excesses impossible by changing the game mechanics, but even now it is full of players shouting 'L33t' speak gibberish across zones e.g. "Max DPS wanted for new HardCore Raiding Guild".
I haven't played WoW as it just didn't appeal to me. but the assertion that "Everquest makes people smart, but WoW makes people stupid" is just retarded.
If you can't "Have your cake & eat it too", then how can "The proof of the pudding be in the eating"?
Take the Hecatomb? TCG What Is Your Doom? quiz.
Or perhaps, "are MMOs making people smarter?"
WoW might dumb-you-down but collecting boar tusks and spending hours doing the same things, but another game might make you smarter by combining complexity, depth, story, and challenge in its content.
If it can make a person dumber, then it should be able to make a person smarter.
Ah yes, because that makes sense, Because I'm around high-school teachers every day.
It seems you have no 'real' reason, to say I'm not a full grown adult, Other then to troll me
So kid, Have a nice night.
Anyway on topic, I don't think WoW can actually make you stupid, Unless you already are. On the other hand, I definetly wouldn't learn any-where near as much in WoW, As I did playing Ryzom. Because Ryzom had an extremely mature community, it was rare to see anyone under 20 playing. (I only knew 2 people, one was 18, and the other was 16, out of a friends list of over 70 people, And both acted mature, Well most of the time lol).
The random idiots you run into in WoW rather often, were almost non-existant there. Miss that game...
~Redslayer-Saga of Ryzom~ Active again!
~Kinch/Lotu-WoW~ Retired
True RedSlayer - Eve ~ Current Primary game
People have been acting stupid in online games since they first came out.
Who else here remembers all the nifty little hax and trainers in Diablo?
I gotz a 300,000 BTU WTFBBQ!
Let me guess, you need me to point what is which, dont you...?
_________________
Senhores da Guerra
LOL man, all mmo's make peoples brains stagnant, its not the game itself of any one in particular, its the sitting there for hours grabbing quick junky foods as to meals with essential vitamins, step back and take a look at hmmmm, lets say a 2 month time frame from just before you found yer favorite mmo and then compare how you feel physically and mentally 2 months into it, kinda feel like yer ''normal thinking is somewhat muddy?, put on a few pounds, yer legs fall asleep fast? N ormal everyday things that you did pre mmo's now feel laboriuos and make you somewhat winded?
Unless the mmo was about real life history, or some weird trig based mmo , none of them make you smarter, and thinking one makes you dumber than another mmo kinda glares the fact of what sitting and playing mmo's has done to your intelligence when yer basing yer intelligence to one game and another and all other useful things you have learned have oozed out yer ear from yer brain becoming stale playing endl;ess hours of mmo's no matter what the title,
playing eq2 and two worlds
This is all based on the flawed premises that playing a MMORPG can affect one's intelligence, and that these games require a person to be fairly intelligent to enjoy them. So your questions are utterly redundant outside of quite pointless hypothesis.
You don't need to be intelligent to succeed at these games, I've met plenty of idiots at end game in every MMORPG. All you need is a lot of spare time.
Consider this: WoW took the formula of MMORPGs and improved the design to be more logical, making it easier to learn. Whereas previous MMORPGs were designed by newbie game designers that gave us crude unintuitive interfaces.
Does suffering with poorly designed interfaces and gameplay make you more intelligent? I would argue it's the opposite. Consider these arguments the next time you consider WoW and it's players "dumbed down".
You are not the MMORPG you play. Consider all the doctors, lawyers, game developers playing WoW, and then question whether you think you're more intelligent than they are. Notice how pointless this debate is?
It's quite pathetic really.
Bingo. Too many people try to build up their ego, because of the game they play. I find it really amusing, though. Maybe that is pathetic, also.
I hope you didn't get your education from mmos. I hope that no one gets their education from mmos. What would this world come to? I think they should have voice chat in all games, that way people can actually laugh instead of typing "LOL". We have a generation of young people lacking real social skills because they are always typing to each other rather than speaking. It is entertaining that they type all big and bad, but then you hear then on headset and they are shy and afraid to speak.
I hope you didn't get your education from mmos. I hope that no one gets their education from mmos. What would this world come to? I think they should have voice chat in all games, that way people can actually laugh instead of typing "LOL". We have a generation of young people lacking real social skills because they are always typing to each other rather than speaking. It is entertaining that they type all big and bad, but then you hear then on headset and they are shy and afraid to speak.
Every professional today has a blackberry. I can guarantee you almost every single one of us is typing "LOL" and "LMAO", and whatever else you're so appalled by. Don't be one of those old, bitter people that can't adapt to the times. Its the 21st century, my friend. Adapt or be left in the dust.
Or perhaps, "are MMOs making people smarter?"
WoW might dumb-you-down but collecting boar tusks and spending hours doing the same things, but another game might make you smarter by combining complexity, depth, story, and challenge in its content.
If it can make a person dumber, then it should be able to make a person smarter.
I've some rather terrible news for you, friend. There is no complexity to these games. If you honestly find anything about one single MMO on the market today complex...or even mildly deep, then you are the very EXAMPLE of how all MMO's are making people stupid. The deepest and most complex thing I've seen come from MMO gaming is Lua Scripting, which is offered by WoW. You DO have to have some brains to do that kind of stuff.
Otherwise, the mechanics require nothing more than the most rudimentary of math skills...the effective use of skills little more than common sense, and the stories are junk thats been ripped off and beaten to death by fantasy novels for years. To put it bluntly...if EQ made you smarter (as you suggest) then you weren't very intelligent to begin with. If the simplistic aggro systems these games use felt complex to you, then I would also go so far as to say you've never played anything with any real challenge in your life.
I've been gaming since I was 5 years old. I'm 25 now...thats two full decades of watching this market grow and change. Of all gaming genres, MMO gaming uses the LEAST brains and amounts to little more than simplistic time sinks to drain people JUSt like you of your money for game play which has long since been outdated. Whats most ironic is that you are trashing WoW...which has been the only MMO YET produced which made great changes to the amount of thought used in PvE content AND gave full support for Lua Scripting used in its UI modification. In short, they are the "smartest" MMO company around.
Every professional today has a blackberry. I can guarantee you almost every single one of them are typing "LOL" and "LMAO", and whatever else you're so appalled by. Don't be one of those old, bitter people that can't adapt to the times. Its the 21st century, my friend. Adapt or be left in the dust.
I think you took that wrong. You can type "LOL" in fact I do all the time. But I also do not say it outloud, nor am I lacking in actual speaking skills. I never said I was appalled by this, not in the least. My point being that alot of these people are lacking in actual speaking ability because they are so used to typing these days. I have heard a guy say " LOL" in mic instead of laughing .. and this was normal for him. With voice chat people do not lose as much as the actual person interaction as they do in the typing, people are also more likely to be themsleves rather than trying to make themselves into something they are not.
Every professional today has a blackberry. I can guarantee you almost every single one of them are typing "LOL" and "LMAO", and whatever else you're so appalled by. Don't be one of those old, bitter people that can't adapt to the times. Its the 21st century, my friend. Adapt or be left in the dust.
I think you took that wrong. You can type "LOL" in fact I do all the time. But I also do not say it outloud, nor am I lacking in actual speaking skills. I never said I was appalled by this, not in the least. My point being that alot of these people are lacking in actual speaking ability because they are so used to typing these days. I have heard a guy say " LOL" in mic instead of laughing .. and this was normal for him. With voice chat people do not lose as much as the actual person interaction as they do in the typing, people are also more likely to be themsleves rather than trying to make themselves into something they are not.
Different people. I don't say LOL outloud, but I've heard others say it. Who am I to condemn, or ridicule this person for saying LOL? I'm not that petty. People are shy, I highly doubt that has to do with typing and MMOs. There were shy people long before that.
Sorry, I don't feel MMOs are desroying the world's communication ability. Sure, typing is not as personal as talking over a mic, and talking over a mic isn't as personal as standing face to face.
Sorry, I don't feel MMOs are desroying the world's communication ability. Sure, typing is not as personal as talking over a mic, and talking over a mic isn't as personal as standing face to face.
I agree ha MMOs are no desroying communicaion abiliy. I've been playing MMOs for years and I hink ha i's only improved my abiliy o express myself.
What I find interesting is that we can even SAY that communication is being destroyed, and actually believe it. Communication cannot be "destroyed". It can only be added to. The fact is...if I say "LOL" out loud, every last one of us would know exactly what I meant and how it pertained to the conversation. That means that "LOL" was valid as a communication device.
In the end, as long as whatever is being used is both understood and effective....its a perfectly FINE communication device. To say otherwise is pure ignorance since the entire American English language is nothing more than a pure bastardization of the ACTUAL English language it was spawned from since inception.
clear proof of OP's statement
Actually..
I think that you can learn a lot in mmos.
Take me as an example. I learned a lot of english during my time in mmos, especially things you won't learn in school. Most teachers have been in GB ages ago, they teach english from a 20-30 year old dictionary..
So i can definitely say: MMOS tought me english. Most of my spoken english comes from endless sessions in voicecoms on international servers. (Thanks eve-online for being just one world!)
You don't learn how to speak fluently in school. Six hours a week is NOT enough at all..
I can think of several other things that you can learn in mmos. Leadership, calculating the roi in crafting heavy games, time management...the list goes on.
People often forget that most mmos are social environments. Okay, there are the msogs (massively singleplayer online games), lotro comes to mind, but even in that world there are chat channels and grouping. Mmo-players are not the stereotypical nerds sitting in front of a screen anymore, typing things like "take rake" or "go north" in an interpreter, and the times of grues eating said nerds are long past, too.
(Yes, maybe some have only evolved into nerds typing things like "lolololol" or "lulz newb gb2wow" into a chat window, with other player hoping they would get eaten by grues..but you get the picture)
Having said that, i think there is worse. Serious Sam 2, anyone?
IMO its not.. It truly makes the new generation stupid cause instead that kids are studying they are playing foolish MMO's..
What I find interesting is that we can even SAY that communication is being destroyed, and actually believe it. Communication cannot be "destroyed". It can only be added to. The fact is...if I say "LOL" out loud, every last one of us would know exactly what I meant and how it pertained to the conversation. That means that "LOL" was valid as a communication device.
In the end, as long as whatever is being used is both understood and effective....its a perfectly FINE communication device. To say otherwise is pure ignorance since the entire American English language is nothing more than a pure bastardization of the ACTUAL English language it was spawned from since inception.
A level of discourse *can* be lessened with profanity, slang, etc.. If I were communicating with a member of a board of directors, a C-level employee, or any prospective client, I would choose my language to be as clear and concise as possible - regardless of the form of communication (oral, e-mail, even via a blackberry). I certainly would not use leet-speak in such a conversation.
There are situations where words or slang can be understood and be counter-productive to one's goals because they are inappropriate given the social context. For example, there are profanities that are almost universally known that would add emphasis during a conversation but be wholly inappropriate to use given the social context.
I can't put stock into your argument that anything is a perfectly fine communication device as long as it is understood and effective.
One could understand the meaning of a completely novel word solely on the basis of the context of the sentence. Both syntax and semantics from other words in the sentence provide context for an unknown word. But there is context from a conversation *beyond* semantic and syntactical cues (e.g., pragmatics). As an example, what if you overheard one mechanic ask another "Does your car run well?" - and the second mechanic replied, "Well, the air conditioner runs fine!". There aren't any semantic or syntactic cues in the reply that would imply that the car does not run well.
All of these cues could allow one to insert a novel word into a sentence and have it be understood during a conversation. But to say that any time this is done and it is understood, that it is "perfectly fine" ignores other conventions of language. There are words (an grammatical structures) in the Japanese language that would be considered informal or impolite if used in an incorrect context. Regardless of cross-cultural and cross-linguistic differences, there is a common principle of politeness and social appropriateness of language in Japanese and English. The idea that any word is a perfectly fine communication device as long as it was understood would clearly defy this principle.
To go a bit deeper, sociolinguistics includes the study of styles and social registers in language. Within the same dialect, there can be multiple styles - and a single speaker may employ different styles depending on the situation. For example, I may use one style when talking to a close personal friend, a very different style when talking to a superordinate in business, and a third style when trying to convey a point on a internet forum. Some styles may include social registers - for example, the use of honorifics when speaking to a superordinate in business.
There are even style guides (like the widely known Elements of Style by Strunk) - and the point of these style guides is not to say what is "right or wrong" or whether something will or not be understood, but to inform one about the conventions that are appropriate and useful for having the desired effect given the audience (that's why there are different English style guides for different purposes / audiences).
But you don't need a style guide to know not to put LOL at the end of a job description on your resume, and you shouldn't need one to know that you shouldn't use ROFLCOPTER in a sentence when you go to your next job interview, even if you are certain the interviewer would know what you meant.
Neither games make you smarter, especially as I could make a wisecrack like 'Mario made me smarter' and everyone would quite rightfully think bs. This being said Everquest was more challenging than WoW because it was when everyone was learning how to play, and the job of learning how to play those classes was a lot more of a learning curve than WoW and it's classes, especially as you also had extra elemtns like in mana management,and key abilities being restricted rather than farmed out to every class. However, admittedly Everquest did have some 'auto-attack' classes which the generalization I've made maybe doesn't apply so much.
Is the pedantic style I've used above suited for this forum? Is it suitable because each word could be understood, or because the style is suitable for the audience?
A bit of both, though communication has always been about what works in a given situation and context.
It seems with your actual reply to me (which I didn't quote because we'd have a page long quote-on-quote thing) was centered around why, based on the fact that some communication is bad situationally, it cannot be good at all. First, I want to say that nearly all of these "Bad Words" or "Unprofessional" words we have as only defined as such because we have programmed ourselves to think that way. This aside, my actual point wasn't about whether everything we say and do is wholesale socially acceptable. It was directed at the fact that one cannot DESTROY language by simply adding to it.
The largest factor here is that our entire western English language IS trash. When we came here and founded this country, certain powerful figures here decided to change some of the core concepts of the old language in a greater effort to divide us from the lands we hailed from. In short, US English is nothing more than ghetto slang based off of actual English. So when I hear people talk about internet slang, or actual ghetto slang, as though its destroying our language...I can barely keep a straight face. Granted, I hate many of the terms used in either myself...but that has little to do with how much its destroying my own language and, instead, how it makes the user of such things look. Language is one of the first things a person notices about you, and is key in first impression.
LOL Is supposed to stand for LAugh out loud? Whatever happened to just laughing? If you are not laughing what is the point of LOL? Yes knowing what it means but the fact that you are saying "LOL" instead of just is not the same. When you really Laugh your brain produces endorphins, saying "LOL" replaces that as well? You plan on saying "LOL" during a job interview? Anyhow, the point being is that people can be very good typers but then have no sense of presentation in person. When I hear these people on voice chat they seem like they have little or no verbal communication skills, which is actually more important than having typing skills. You are going to be solving issues with your wife via text one day? Do job interviews via text? Give a presentation via text only? I hope not, I sure wouldn't hire you. From what I have seen is that alot of the people that are very good with communicating via text are not very good communicating in person. I think that actually adding voice chat in games would help reduce that, Teach the kids how to speak properly, it seems they already know how to type.