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VWTheory.com: "AoC - is there any limit to the depth this genre can plummet to?"
Rasputin
Member UncommonPosts: 602
From this thread over at www.vwtheory.com:
http://vwtheory.com/showthread.php?t=32
AoC - is there any limit to the depth this genre can plummet to?
We had seamless worlds in 1997 with UO, in 2000'ish with AC, not long after with DAoC, and then the immense SWG.
Planetside with its up to 300 people in the same battle, I heard that Runescape can have 1000vs1000 (can that be true??) in the same battle. DAoC had easily several hundred in the same battle as well.
Now AoC has hit with such a huge success. What the hell is happening? How can the players accept the freedom being taken away from them? How can they accept being confined with technology more limiting than the singleplayer game Oblivion?
Battles confined to instanced battlegrounds chopped off from the world's reality? 48vs48 in each battle - slightly more than Battlefield2 and ALOT less than Joint Operations?
Heavy instancing of the main world, making it totally inconsistent, and allowing for such artifacts as people fleeing combat by switching instance? Two people being at the same spot in the world, but cannot see each other? A nightmare of inconsistency and immersion-breaking, while at the same time crippling (supposedly) important elements like PvP. Proceeding in the world by talking to an NPC, so you can be transported to one of a number of instances of the next area instead of just simply walking there?
Are the players really willingly sitting there, as the developers chip pellet after pellet away on the very foundation of Massive Multiplayer?
The mainstreamification of this genre looks more and more like a curse.
Planetside with its up to 300 people in the same battle, I heard that Runescape can have 1000vs1000 (can that be true??) in the same battle. DAoC had easily several hundred in the same battle as well.
Now AoC has hit with such a huge success. What the hell is happening? How can the players accept the freedom being taken away from them? How can they accept being confined with technology more limiting than the singleplayer game Oblivion?
Battles confined to instanced battlegrounds chopped off from the world's reality? 48vs48 in each battle - slightly more than Battlefield2 and ALOT less than Joint Operations?
Heavy instancing of the main world, making it totally inconsistent, and allowing for such artifacts as people fleeing combat by switching instance? Two people being at the same spot in the world, but cannot see each other? A nightmare of inconsistency and immersion-breaking, while at the same time crippling (supposedly) important elements like PvP. Proceeding in the world by talking to an NPC, so you can be transported to one of a number of instances of the next area instead of just simply walking there?
Are the players really willingly sitting there, as the developers chip pellet after pellet away on the very foundation of Massive Multiplayer?
The mainstreamification of this genre looks more and more like a curse.
Comments
That is EXACTLY how i feel. I cancelled my sub due to those factors, plus with an unknown end game. It feels like Guild Wars, with gritty graphics, cool combat, but a "weaker" MMO feel. I maybe see 8 people in the same zone instance. I feel like im playing a single player game, or Diablo 2.
I might as well go play GW and wait for GW2. They say AoC end game will be raiding and PvP. Too be honest, sounds like most MMOs out there. GW end game was PvP, hell, you didnt even have to level to PvP. Why would i want to grind out 80 levels just to do some mediocre pvp.
Which is why im probably going to EVE until GW2 and Champions Online (If they have PvP).
IMO AoC is an awesome MMO with too many flaws, mainly social flaws as well as crafting/economic.
Maybe, just maybe its only me. But why are so many people posting their firsts posts as negative threads towards AOC? I mean sure you are welcome to post your opinion, its just very interesting that so many profiles on the forums have 1 post, and its to bash this game.
/shout WTB +50 troll pots for 15 gold.
Like with every MMO, there will be lots of bashers. Personally, AoC doesnt seem like my cup ol' tea right now. As the end game seems very uncertain, as i play MMOs for the social and economic factor, AoC doesnt seem to fit that bill quite yet.
Not meaning to bash but thats exactly how i feel.
Such a tired old argument. It's boring, really.
UO, AC, DAoC, and SWG were not seamless. Please go review your nostalgic memories against the realities of those games.
They were much more seamless than an instanced, zoned game...yes. But the claim is false...and it simply murders the argument.
Is there some kind of police here denying people from making first posts?
What about UO was *not* seamless? There were serverlines, but you could look across them, and you would not even notice them unless you were a very hardcore player. UO was as seamless as they come.
AC had one of the biggest seamless worlds. Yes, you had to zone into dungeons, but there was no instancing of dungeons (or of anything).
It must be obvious to you what way the general trend is going when you look back over the history of MMOGs.
err.. about runescape... you can't fit even 48 players on your screen!. even if 1,000,000 players are there theres no collision detection and so players just stand on the same squares, plus your camera view is so restricted that you can never see more than a stones throw away. people just make stacks, back in the days of the wilderness a guild of 50 players on the move will look like 2 players until you hover over them.
My blog:
The advent of such games like AoC are a regression in the MMO genre. That's not to say I believe they are bad though, just not very progressive.
Important Information regarding Posting and You
So let me get this straight: I think the argument is boring and therefore I'm sitting "atop that horse". You think the argument is important and thus you don't equally qualify for being "atop that horse?"
A bit hypocritical, no?
You have your opinion, I have mine. I think the argument is boring...it implies that this single release is a total regression in the genre. What an absurd commentary. Instances and zones have been a part of nearly every release since the beginning of MMO gaming...how can it be regressive?
But hey, you can attack me ad hominem all you like. I think it reflects more poorly on you than on me.
Is there some kind of police here denying people from making first posts?
Not really, I just find it incredibly odd that you have been reading this forum for years, and now finally have decided to post about aoc, I just see alot of those recently.
So let me get this straight: I think the argument is boring and therefore I'm sitting "atop that horse". You think the argument is important and thus you don't equally qualify for being "atop that horse?"
A bit hypocritical, no?
You have your opinion, I have mine. I think the argument is boring...it implies that this single release is a total regression in the genre. What an absurd commentary. Instances and zones have been a part of nearly every release since the beginning of MMO gaming...how can it be regressive?
But hey, you can attack me ad hominem all you like. I think it reflects more poorly on you than on me.
I think its the amount they use instances thats a regression. It to me is way too much.
I can accept it because it doesn't bother me as much as I thought it would. The game rarely gets me excited, I haven't had that 'first time in a UO dungeon Nov. 1997' feeling yet, and i haven't grouped for anything group related yet. I still say this game rocks. Maybe it's because it's conan, maybe it's because of the bare-breasted whores or the graphic nature of some quests and dialogue, it could be the crazy fatalities or the blood splattering on the screen. All I know is, something about this game keeps me from trashing it, and no matter how many times a day i login and just sit there, do my guild spam to no success, and logout, i still can't let myself slam this game. Hell, I even went out and bought a .com and a server and started making a damned guild website with custom aoc theme by hand rofl, and that was after i realized i wasnt having fun!! hahaha! Something is keeping me here, and I'll bet you that something is going to be a massive population and game updates, now.. when these things will happen and my gameplay fun improves, i dont know, but i can tell you this, I recognize these feelings, and if UO and WoW have anything to say about it, it most definately is that something amazing is over the horizon, and it doesnt matter when we reach it or get a peak of it, all that matters is we dont cash in our stock and we all hunker down for the cold winter ahead.
"Sometimes, things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. People are basically good. Honor, courage, virtue mean everything. Power and money, money and power mean nothing. Good always triumphs over evil. Love, True Love Never Dies."
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Preach it brother!
I want a seamless world. And yeah, maybe the old mmo's had seams but they were invisible. Well whatever, semantics. I don't care how they achieve the magic, I just want it how it used to be. Screw instances. I say knock the graphics down a notch if that's what you have to do. It's more about gameplay than graphics anyway right?
And screw classes and levels. We don't need them. Give us points to spend wherever we want.
People here don't understand that most players are NOT looking for virtual worlds.
Players are looking for good GAMES with virtual world elements. It is always game-first, virtual world second.
Good content with some restrictions >>>> open but boring world.
So let me get this straight: I think the argument is boring and therefore I'm sitting "atop that horse". You think the argument is important and thus you don't equally qualify for being "atop that horse?"
A bit hypocritical, no?
You have your opinion, I have mine. I think the argument is boring...it implies that this single release is a total regression in the genre. What an absurd commentary. Instances and zones have been a part of nearly every release since the beginning of MMO gaming...how can it be regressive?
But hey, you can attack me ad hominem all you like. I think it reflects more poorly on you than on me.
If you think my comment was some sort of "ad hominem" attack than you really need to go over yourself... or at least deal with that whole "I'm on the defensive all the time" thing. Either way, it wasn't, I could really care less what you think/do/say nor do I believe anyone should think any more highly of my comment/opinion.
That being said, you did say ITS a boring argument and not I'm bored of this argument, giving an overall impression of self inflated importance and superiority as apposed to it just being an opinion.
And quite honestly, those people who actually know me here already think poorly of me; I doubt my trying to converse with another member, albeit an apparently teenage-girl-like sensitive one, in a semi-resonable way could cause that to get any better or worse
.
Whatever makes ya happy though.
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It goes down to what your willing to put up with I geuss. The more complex the graphics system the more instanced the resulting game will be, the simpler you make the graphics the more players you can have on screen. Which are you willing to sacrifice? and yes it is sacrifice, it is impossible with today's machines to have hundreds of players with AOC graphics all fighting and doing things.
Your discussion seems to indicate you believe the devs purposefully took away the ability to have many players, and it can be added to the game with no sacrifice to it. Yet this is simply not true, if you want to play a game with hundreds of players handled on screen battling it out, go play UO and be immersed in its graphics.
Personally I hold graphics quality a lot more important to immersion then the amount of characters handled on screen, and so I think AOC is a lot better in that regard then UO and its ilk. That said AOC really needs to fix its NPC pop-in before I am impressed with the game.
My join date is July 7, 2003. I have been reading this board for years, but I haven't been active here - I have been active on other boards though, not the least VNBoards.Is there some kind of police here denying people from making first posts?
Not really, I just find it incredibly odd that you have been reading this forum for years, and now finally have decided to post about aoc, I just see alot of those recently.
So there are two possibilities. ALL these people posting for the first time (especially those who have been members for years) are trolls who are out to spread lies and rumors about AoC, OR the game is so freaking bad (in their opinion) that they actually feel compelled to post for the first time!
I bought and played AoC against my better judgement. I've read the good and the bad, but decided to try it for myself.
If I were to review the game, I would say: "It's a mix between Dungeon Seige II and Guild Wars, but it is not done as well as either of those." It's not an MMO (in my opinion) and it is a HUGE step backward for the genre. Okay, fine...games before it had instancing/loading screens, but NOTHING in the genre is as instanced or as loading-filled (besides maybe GW) as AoC. Immersion is a joke, community is limited to friends list and guilds, and progression is limited to following a preset path through the majority of the game.
It may work for some people. Different strokes for different folks, I always say. You're entitled to your opinion just like anyone else. You find these threads boring, they found the game boring (I did too) and for those of us who have been playing MMOs for years and love the genre, it's sad watching the crap that's been hitting the market lately ruin it. THAT'S why people are posting these threads.
*Edited for grammar/spelling errors*
I auctually enjoy a zone with little or no population. It makes the game feel more like an adventure and your in the wild fighting for yourself. Also I would trade instances for leet graphics because I'm all about graphics in my games. The game breaker for me is that I'm hearing that AOC is linear. I can't stand linear games. They might as well make a movie if it's going to be a series of exact events instead of chosing my own fate (fable wooot). Well I'm still looking for a mmo so I guess I'll just have to wait for the trial. Oh yea this is my first post so wooooooot!!!!!
Trolls = Hardcore
Fanbois = Carebears
The only posts I read in threads are my own.
Wasn't any worse, from my direct in-game experience, than EQ2. Less player segmentation than in EVE. I see just as many people in New Tarantia or Khemia as I typically see in Stormwind or Ironforge.
And no, it's not the amount of instancing that is the brunt of these arguments. It's the fact that there are instances or zones at all.
If someone comes along to say: "I don't like how many loading screens I see in the game." That's a very solid observation, and a subjective opinion based on such an observation. I have no issue with that.
The issue I have is when people come along to say things such as are inferred and stated by the OP: "MMO gaming is going downhill because there are too many instances/zones in AoC." That's an absurd leap to make, and just doesn't hold up to any trend analysis or comparison.
But then, I suppose my fault is looking for some level-headedness in this discussion. Instead, I see a whole lot of grandstanding and exaggeration. Honestly, I don't know why I even bother to reply.
To Nariuseldon,
Maybe that is what most players want.
I can only say what I want and like. I like the open world. I had one for the most part in SWG. We didn't have a lot of 'content', but the game mechanics were in place so that we could make our own content. That's what I want. Let me make up my own story and live my own adventures. I don't need to be hand held through the game quest to quest till I hit max level.
Players today seem like if they run out of quests they don't know what to do with themselves. It's a shame. But really is it their fault? From day one when you enter a modern mmo you are bombarded by quests. Immediately the player is forced into a passive role, going from quest to quest to quest. And some quests are good, don't get me wrong. But really I think game designers have gone overboard. They could fix this by not penalizing people for grouping and adding decent drops to the loot tables instead of restricting it mostly to quest rewards.
You are sorely mistaken. Graphics can be scaled dynamically by the game. I believe DAoC scaled avatars down to a single textured box in huge battles.
No, it is not massiveness you sacrifice with graphics, but you do sacrifice something: When you sink so immense resources into one area, something else will have to give.
That still doesn't explain why they chose to butcher the foundation of Massive Multiplayer though.
I really don't care about zones or instances. In fact, I love instances. It keeps farming down, and let's everyone have a fair chance at a dungeon. Zones are not an issue with me. The deciding factor whether I play a game or not is fun. Not some arbitrary zoneline.
Yes, the 48v48 is limiting, and I really think it won't be a popular idea with casual players. Then again, in the end most MMOs could care less about casuals. Just look at WoW. The raiding, "end game" is as hardcore as it comes, but people flock to it.
DAoC and SWG are most definately seamless.
STOP WHINING!
You are sorely mistaken. Graphics can be scaled dynamically by the game. I believe DAoC scaled avatars down to a single textured box in huge battles.
No, it is not massiveness you sacrifice with graphics, but you do sacrifice something: When you sink so immense resources into one area, something else will have to give.
That still doesn't explain why they chose to butcher the foundation of Massive Multiplayer though.
Exactly. It's not just the instancing, but the lack of community, the linear MANDATORY quest driven story line, the ridiculous instant-travel and day/night crap (at least in the first 20). I don't feel like I'm in a world, but in a small pretty tunnel being corralled from place to place. (LOTRO does this just as much and I dislike it just as much.) These games look beautiful, but THEY PLAY LIKE CRAP (for MMOs).