The point is that Smed has now been caught in a lie. Yes, I know its been done before but this is documentable proof of such. I kept a copy of the original post just in case it gets changed.
Would you please PM me a copy of the original blog before he deleted most of his disclosures?
Pm'd.
I am keeping copies of his various incarnations as posts on my site. TG also has it posted.
Well, I've only seen the latest incarnation of his blog, so perhaps I missed all the fun. It was a good read, I thought it was candid and apologetic. Did you expect him to get on his knees and beg the players forgiveness?
They were given a directive to make drastic changes to make the subs more in line with WOW. They took a shot, and failed miserably at it (for reasons which he detailed).
He took responsibility for the blame where it was due and provided facts that other folks here somehow refute using numbers from dubious sources.
I'd say his post at the moment is reasoned and well thought out. Unlike most of the replies I've read here.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Atleast finally someone from $OE admits that they completely f*cked up and that $med is a lieing peace of $hit!
To say that SWG was shite or that even the Jedi system was shite is nuts, the game and systems were great but $OE being the a$$ hats that hey are managed to completely f*ck it up.
Well, I've only seen the latest incarnation of his blog, so perhaps I missed all the fun. It was a good read, I thought it was candid and apologetic. Did you expect him to get on his knees and beg the players forgiveness? They were given a directive to make drastic changes to make the subs more in line with WOW. They took a shot, and failed miserably at it (for reasons which he detailed). He took responsibility for the blame where it was due and provided facts that other folks here somehow refute using numbers from dubious sources. I'd say his post at the moment is reasoned and well thought out. Unlike most of the replies I've read here.
The reason I posted this topic wasn't to see him on his knees. His opinions and beliefs are his own. Him accounting for (in some fashion) for what he helped do to the community is a bit late but still appreciated in some regard. His initial version of the post was a bit more harsh, btw.
I posted this thread because he tells us that not only did they keep the old code but they kept working on it incase the NGE was pulled. This goes directly against what we were told by Smed on several occasions. No chance for rollbacks or classic servers because this code was "lost". Maintaining seperate code was too hard, huh? Odd - they managed to do so for 4-6 weeks of the "hardest crunching" that dev has ever done.
That and the fact that he admits they knew they would lose the 200k of subscribers they already had. Stating that fact, in itself, is absolutely stunning. Was it his decision? Nope. Its just more proof that SOE cares little for its customer base and would sell them out at the drop of the hat if they think they can make more money than what they are currently bringing in.
They could have done other things to make the game fun. Like they could have fixed battlegrounds, or put caps on dots, resists, etc. as has all been stated before. Instead they made a whole new game that we didn't want.
What gets me is the whole time they were working on this stuff in secret they were stringing us along with promises they never intended to keep, Pathetic.
Also, this guy's post is very insightful as to what went down, but with all the profanity and stuff he comes off less than professional, which is something that also afflicted SWG. It was a lack of respect that ultimately doomed the game, as they didn't give two cents about 200k people having fun. What kind of game developer is that? Not a good one in my book.
Ultimately the blame is shifted though. He was partly responsible but like all bad organizational decisions the person who ultimately screwed up and is responsible for giving the go ahead remains hidden. I work in an organization filled with mba's, master's degree, some phd's and lots of medical degrees. Trust me when I say only a person with an advanced degree could screw up this bad.
Of course the old code is still around. In fact, I'd be surprised if they didn't have code for each version of the game in a code vault somewhere. Wouldn't make sense not to have old code for "just in case" scenarios.
Until you cancel your subscription, you are only helping to continue the cycle of mediocrity.
Of course the old code is still around. In fact, I'd be surprised if they didn't have code for each version of the game in a code vault somewhere. Wouldn't make sense not to have old code for "just in case" scenarios.
Yes, you are right TookyG. ALL software developer use a versioning tool such as Perforce,Subversion, MS SourceSafe etc (among others) to archive and update their versions. Without these tools the programs could not be created, it would be impossible.
I am a developer who has worked at several game companies, and I have never EVER seen a case of a version not being archived and then not being accessable. EVER. It's a ridiculous unbelievable excuse.
There is no way they don't have access to a functioning version of SWG Pre-CU, CU or any other version. It's simply another lie handed out by Smed and crew. Nuff said. I honestly couldn't believe that they actually said that. That was one of the few moments right after the NGE bomb was dropped that it was obvious how dumb they think their customers actually are (the Nancy quote was the most blatant giveaway).
Well, I've only seen the latest incarnation of his blog, so perhaps I missed all the fun. It was a good read, I thought it was candid and apologetic. Did you expect him to get on his knees and beg the players forgiveness? They were given a directive to make drastic changes to make the subs more in line with WOW. They took a shot, and failed miserably at it (for reasons which he detailed). He took responsibility for the blame where it was due and provided facts that other folks here somehow refute using numbers from dubious sources. I'd say his post at the moment is reasoned and well thought out. Unlike most of the replies I've read here.
I'm thinking you missed the inflammatory comments that have now been deleted. What's up there now is something you might hire a p.r. person to write after you've really made yourself look like an ass.
They could have done other things to make the game fun. Like they could have fixed battlegrounds, or put caps on dots, resists, etc. as has all been stated before. Instead they made a whole new game that we didn't want.
What gets me is the whole time they were working on this stuff in secret they were stringing us along with promises they never intended to keep, Pathetic.
Also, this guy's post is very insightful as to what went down, but with all the profanity and stuff he comes off less than professional, which is something that also afflicted SWG. It was a lack of respect that ultimately doomed the game, as they didn't give two cents about 200k people having fun. What kind of game developer is that? Not a good one in my book.
Ultimately the blame is shifted though. He was partly responsible but like all bad organizational decisions the person who ultimately screwed up and is responsible for giving the go ahead remains hidden. I work in an organization filled with mba's, master's degree, some phd's and lots of medical degrees. Trust me when I say only a person with an advanced degree could screw up this bad. OM NOM NOM.
Nicely said, and I'm not offended by the advanced degree critique lol, the point is well taken. This has upper level management fingerprints on it, whatever their education.
Kind of funny how they bow up and become defensive when their former customers speak their mind. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, it don't feel so good does it?
Que up James Kirk voice/ They still... just... don't... get it, do they?
I think it's interesting that this guy admits that Jedi were not available at launch. That's false advertising.
The second thing is that NO ONE, especially a game programmer could possibly have looked at the NGE and went "wow"...unless the only programming/video games they have experience with is from an Atari 2600. Even as a WoW knock off, the NGE is crappy and pathetic.
One of the things that floored me about the NGE was how old and dated it looked and felt - and I didn't even try it until two years after it came out!
If this guy truly believes it HE IS ON CRACK.
I can't believe that even after 2-3 years of this mess with loads of people leaving, tons of complaints and negative press they haven't rolled back the servers.
There is a new Star Wars movie on the way. If SOE has an expansion in the works, I haven't heard about it - which is strange because usually they can't shut up about such things. The last expansion was timed for the DVD release of Episode 3.
This leads me to believe the game is truly dead. Not just on lifesupport, but dead.
The guy apologised and its still not accepted. Well a bunch of people apologised and no one accepts it.
They outline the fact that the game was pretty sucky to begin with and was failing before the CU and they tried to fix it.
the fact that the original version was overglorified was outlined and the bleeding of subscribers was outlined. So like any company would do when trying to improve their bottom line they made a decision and ran with it.
So after god knows how long they stil are apologising. It does appear that something that many of us have done awhile back (forgivness for a mistake as they were mistakes not purposeful and willful attempts to screw up a game.... it was something they thought they were doing tom ake it better..) that a pocket of an old community can't forgive or forget and either move onto another game or whatever.
It IS over. Unless you want his real life blood or something its over.
I see a post in this thread threatening bodily harm. That's kinda wacked out in its own right. Its out of proportion again. It was just a game and its now an *old* game. What more is there left to do? NOthing.
He makes a lot of disclosures actually. The non-availability of jedi is only one of them.
Other companies say, we're working on a chapter that will soon introduce unlockable characters. They don't market the product as if the planned feature already exists.
City of Villains for example just released an issue with unlockable villains. People knew that this was a plan. Nobody was told that they just had to keep searching for something that didn't exist in order to unlock.
Also, NCsoft advertises a plan and then implements the plan advertised. The exact opposite was done with the NGE. Trials of Obi-Wan and overall profession revamps indicated a plan to stick with the Combat Upgrade version of the game. This went along with SOE president John Smedley's remark, the CU is here to stay.
What is so outrageous is that while all of this marketting was being done, the execs had already decided to scrap most of what was being pushed in favour of the NGE.
I appreciate Dan's restoration of most of his original post. People copied it already anyways, so you can't really unsay what's been said on the internet.
I also appreciate his removal of much of the derogatory comments directed at players.
I further appreciate his indication that mistakes were made on various levels including marketting and executive decision making. I agree. I'm not going to scapegoat this guy, although I believe he had a role to play, as he acknowledges.
If you read this, thanks for being informative, and becoming more civil Dan.
Originally posted by ummax The guy apologised and its still not accepted. Well a bunch of people apologised and no one accepts it. They outline the fact that the game was pretty sucky to begin with and was failing before the CU and they tried to fix it. the fact that the original version was overglorified was outlined and the bleeding of subscribers was outlined. So like any company would do when trying to improve their bottom line they made a decision and ran with it. So after god knows how long they stil are apologising. It does appear that something that many of us have done awhile back (forgivness for a mistake as they were mistakes not purposeful and willful attempts to screw up a game.... it was something they thought they were doing tom ake it better..) that a pocket of an old community can't forgive or forget and either move onto another game or whatever. It IS over. Unless you want his real life blood or something its over. I see a post in this thread threatening bodily harm. That's kinda wacked out in its own right. Its out of proportion again. It was just a game and its now an *old* game. What more is there left to do? NOthing. /shrugs
they guy apologized and at the same time told people to "eat a male member."
What they did to try and fix it did not fix it, which means they were wrong about what was wrong with it. That is no justification for what they did.
IT was outlined that the CU was bleeding customers. We all knew that (although SOE has never admitted that, they have made the false claim that the CU GAINED them customers). They falsely assessed what was wrong (mismanagement) and decided to do the wrong thing (screw current customers) to try and save it. That backfired, and they have not rectified this.
They need to do more than apologize. They need to make the game a good game again, one BETTER than pre-CU, by incorporating back all that was good about pre-CU and fixing all the problems that there were pre-CU. Instead they have not done this, and have compounded their error.
There is a LOT left to do. man up and fix it. Make up for the error. simple as that.
PS. What is actually extremely out of proportion is YOU getting so upset about what people SAY about what SOE did. That is most interesting, and out of proportion. Wildly so. One can understand a person who feels he has been wronged being upset, but for one to defend wrongdoers with such vehemence is mind boggling.
The guy apologised and its still not accepted. Well a bunch of people apologised and no one accepts it. They outline the fact that the game was pretty sucky to begin with and was failing before the CU and they tried to fix it. the fact that the original version was overglorified was outlined and the bleeding of subscribers was outlined. So like any company would do when trying to improve their bottom line they made a decision and ran with it. So after god knows how long they stil are apologising. It does appear that something that many of us have done awhile back (forgivness for a mistake as they were mistakes not purposeful and willful attempts to screw up a game.... it was something they thought they were doing tom ake it better..) that a pocket of an old community can't forgive or forget and either move onto another game or whatever. It IS over. Unless you want his real life blood or something its over. I see a post in this thread threatening bodily harm. That's kinda wacked out in its own right. Its out of proportion again. It was just a game and its now an *old* game. What more is there left to do? NOthing. /shrugs
Lets get somthing clear skippy I threatend no one. I said there were people out there looking to stomp his ass, and that is the truth, and some of these people I would not want to piss off. Is it whacked? sure it is, but some folks are that seriouse about their gaming and really don't take kindly to some arrogant asshat calling them stupid then telling them to suck cock. It's called not letting your allagator mouth over load your tweety bird ass. It is also no doubt why the little coward deleted a lot of the Smack talk he layed out in the first place.
The guy apologised and its still not accepted. Well a bunch of people apologised and no one accepts it. They outline the fact that the game was pretty sucky to begin with and was failing before the CU and they tried to fix it. the fact that the original version was overglorified was outlined and the bleeding of subscribers was outlined. So like any company would do when trying to improve their bottom line they made a decision and ran with it. So after god knows how long they stil are apologising. It does appear that something that many of us have done awhile back (forgivness for a mistake as they were mistakes not purposeful and willful attempts to screw up a game.... it was something they thought they were doing tom ake it better..) that a pocket of an old community can't forgive or forget and either move onto another game or whatever. It IS over. Unless you want his real life blood or something its over. I see a post in this thread threatening bodily harm. That's kinda wacked out in its own right. Its out of proportion again. It was just a game and its now an *old* game. What more is there left to do? NOthing. /shrugs
Yes the game is old now, but nobody should just forgive and forget what SOE pulled. That would give a green ligh to every other dev company to do the same. Let's remember that this goes way beyond launching a game without everything that's supposed to be in it. This was a total changing of the whole core game in itself.
Someone should have sat SOE/LA down and made them understand the total consequences of their actions. In my own personal opinion, they should have just fixed what was broke and not rushed the jedi proffession.
If after that, they still felt the game was not were they wanted it to be, then they should have opened one new server with the NGE concept and logged all community feedback that would have been coming in.
If the new server and NGE would have gotten rave reviews, then make the total change., but to do it the way SOE did it, was right out bait and switch fraud.
Geeze, he really did edit it didn't he? I like both versions of his post.
I appreciate his taking the time to write his blog. If I make a mistake at work, I have to fix my mistake if possible and explain to the customer what happened and what we did to fix it. So years later we are finding out what happened. I'd like to know the plan to fix it?
From what I read, he learned some lessons from all this. I think reflecting on a mistake and learning from it is a great step to making sure it doesn't happen again. But nothing has been done to fix the mistake. All we hear are a lot of excuses.
Also, he says at that time the subscription base was more like 160 to 180k, rather than 200k. My God, what must the subscription base be now?! It has to be around 10k, not including station access pass.
The guy apologised and its still not accepted. Well a bunch of people apologised and no one accepts it. They outline the fact that the game was pretty sucky to begin with and was failing before the CU and they tried to fix it. the fact that the original version was overglorified was outlined and the bleeding of subscribers was outlined. So like any company would do when trying to improve their bottom line they made a decision and ran with it. So after god knows how long they stil are apologising. It does appear that something that many of us have done awhile back (forgivness for a mistake as they were mistakes not purposeful and willful attempts to screw up a game.... it was something they thought they were doing tom ake it better..) that a pocket of an old community can't forgive or forget and either move onto another game or whatever. It IS over. Unless you want his real life blood or something its over. I see a post in this thread threatening bodily harm. That's kinda wacked out in its own right. Its out of proportion again. It was just a game and its now an *old* game. What more is there left to do? NOthing. /shrugs
Yes the game is old now, but nobody should just forgive and forget what SOE pulled. That would give a green ligh to every other dev company to do the same. Let's remember that this goes way beyond launching a game without everything that's supposed to be in it. This was a total changing of the whole core game in itself.
Someone should have sat SOE/LA down and made them understand the total consequences of their actions. In my own personal opinion, they should have just fixed what was broke and not rushed the jedi proffession.
If after that, they still felt the game was not were they wanted it to be, then they should have opened one new server with the NGE concept and logged all community feedback that would have been coming in.
If the new server and NGE would have gotten rave reviews, then make the total change., but to do it the way SOE did it, was right out bait and switch fraud.
Forgiveness is a basic quality of civilzed society. Even the penal system has a policy of forgivness in that once you do your time its over and laws that make it so that the person is protected after he has "apologised" to the system by doing his time. Murderers are forgiven and given a chance. Its something you should learn to do especially when someone admits thatt he screwed up.
If you make a mistake at work do you get given another chance or raked over the coals for years on end and constantly given a hard time regardless of the fact you have been promoted, done a good job after the fact etc.
If you spill milk on the floor and I as your wife (a female) find you dont clean it up do i spend the next 5 years screaming at you for not noticing and making a mistake or do i point it out, clean it up say my piece and move on
Forgiveness is a basic positive human trait that is a good quality to have. Hate and anger on the other side are totally useless and serve no real purpose (except possibly to give you gas, ulcers and a headache).
The guy apologised and its still not accepted. Well a bunch of people apologised and no one accepts it. They outline the fact that the game was pretty sucky to begin with and was failing before the CU and they tried to fix it. the fact that the original version was overglorified was outlined and the bleeding of subscribers was outlined. So like any company would do when trying to improve their bottom line they made a decision and ran with it. So after god knows how long they stil are apologising. It does appear that something that many of us have done awhile back (forgivness for a mistake as they were mistakes not purposeful and willful attempts to screw up a game.... it was something they thought they were doing tom ake it better..) that a pocket of an old community can't forgive or forget and either move onto another game or whatever. It IS over. Unless you want his real life blood or something its over. I see a post in this thread threatening bodily harm. That's kinda wacked out in its own right. Its out of proportion again. It was just a game and its now an *old* game. What more is there left to do? NOthing. /shrugs
Yes the game is old now, but nobody should just forgive and forget what SOE pulled. That would give a green ligh to every other dev company to do the same. Let's remember that this goes way beyond launching a game without everything that's supposed to be in it. This was a total changing of the whole core game in itself.
Someone should have sat SOE/LA down and made them understand the total consequences of their actions. In my own personal opinion, they should have just fixed what was broke and not rushed the jedi proffession.
If after that, they still felt the game was not were they wanted it to be, then they should have opened one new server with the NGE concept and logged all community feedback that would have been coming in.
If the new server and NGE would have gotten rave reviews, then make the total change., but to do it the way SOE did it, was right out bait and switch fraud.
Forgiveness is a basic quality of civilzed society. Even the penal system has a policy of forgivness in that once you do your time its over and laws that make it so that the person is protected after he has "apologised" to the system by doing his time. Murderers are forgiven and given a chance. Its something you should learn to do especially when someone admits thatt he screwed up.
If you make a mistake at work do you get given another chance or raked over the coals for years on end and constantly given a hard time regardless of the fact you have been promoted, done a good job after the fact etc.
If you spill milk on the floor and I as your wife (a female) find you dont clean it up do i spend the next 5 years screaming at you for not noticing and making a mistake or do i point it out, clean it up say my piece and move on
Forgiveness is a basic positive human trait that is a good quality to have. Hate and anger on the other side are totally useless and serve no real purpose (except possibly to give you gas, ulcers and a headache).
To forgive is to be human i will agree, but your example of forgiveness on murders and such i do not agree. The thing is, SOE screwed up. Do i still care, not reallly. I unsubbed right when the NGE hit and only go back with the vet passes.
Did this smuck apologize, yes he did. Do i have to hold him accountable for his past actions, no i don't, but anyone with half a brain can see not only was he pround of what he did, he still relishies in it.
The fact still remains that SOE pulled one of the biggest shame and bait and switch i haver seen.
The guy apologised and its still not accepted. Well a bunch of people apologised and no one accepts it. They outline the fact that the game was pretty sucky to begin with and was failing before the CU and they tried to fix it. the fact that the original version was overglorified was outlined and the bleeding of subscribers was outlined. So like any company would do when trying to improve their bottom line they made a decision and ran with it. So after god knows how long they stil are apologising. It does appear that something that many of us have done awhile back (forgivness for a mistake as they were mistakes not purposeful and willful attempts to screw up a game.... it was something they thought they were doing tom ake it better..) that a pocket of an old community can't forgive or forget and either move onto another game or whatever. It IS over. Unless you want his real life blood or something its over. I see a post in this thread threatening bodily harm. That's kinda wacked out in its own right. Its out of proportion again. It was just a game and its now an *old* game. What more is there left to do? NOthing. /shrugs
Yes the game is old now, but nobody should just forgive and forget what SOE pulled. That would give a green ligh to every other dev company to do the same. Let's remember that this goes way beyond launching a game without everything that's supposed to be in it. This was a total changing of the whole core game in itself.
Someone should have sat SOE/LA down and made them understand the total consequences of their actions. In my own personal opinion, they should have just fixed what was broke and not rushed the jedi proffession.
If after that, they still felt the game was not were they wanted it to be, then they should have opened one new server with the NGE concept and logged all community feedback that would have been coming in.
If the new server and NGE would have gotten rave reviews, then make the total change., but to do it the way SOE did it, was right out bait and switch fraud.
The eula clearly sais online play may be subject to changes without notice at any time. Also you can not switch and bait that which you do not own as also the eula clearly states by agreeing to this eula you herby agree that you do not own this or any other virtual items within this game from soe and La. As for fixing the game i do not think pre-cu was fixable, it was just wayyy to buggy , everytime something pre-cu was fixed a new exploit reared its ugly head that needed to be fixed, i didnt understand that then but i do now (as i was angry too until i realized) that this was the only way to fix the trash heap that was swg, I am finding it even more enjoyable now than before, me and my son just resubbed and are having a blast on bria.
The guy apologised and its still not accepted. Well a bunch of people apologised and no one accepts it. They outline the fact that the game was pretty sucky to begin with and was failing before the CU and they tried to fix it. the fact that the original version was overglorified was outlined and the bleeding of subscribers was outlined. So like any company would do when trying to improve their bottom line they made a decision and ran with it. So after god knows how long they stil are apologising. It does appear that something that many of us have done awhile back (forgivness for a mistake as they were mistakes not purposeful and willful attempts to screw up a game.... it was something they thought they were doing tom ake it better..) that a pocket of an old community can't forgive or forget and either move onto another game or whatever. It IS over. Unless you want his real life blood or something its over. I see a post in this thread threatening bodily harm. That's kinda wacked out in its own right. Its out of proportion again. It was just a game and its now an *old* game. What more is there left to do? NOthing. /shrugs
Yes the game is old now, but nobody should just forgive and forget what SOE pulled. That would give a green ligh to every other dev company to do the same. Let's remember that this goes way beyond launching a game without everything that's supposed to be in it. This was a total changing of the whole core game in itself.
Someone should have sat SOE/LA down and made them understand the total consequences of their actions. In my own personal opinion, they should have just fixed what was broke and not rushed the jedi proffession.
If after that, they still felt the game was not were they wanted it to be, then they should have opened one new server with the NGE concept and logged all community feedback that would have been coming in.
If the new server and NGE would have gotten rave reviews, then make the total change., but to do it the way SOE did it, was right out bait and switch fraud.
The eula clearly sais online play may be subject to changes without notice at any time. Also you can not switch and bait that which you do not own as also the eula clearly states by agreeing to this eula you herby agree that you do not own this or any other virtual items within this game from soe and La. As for fixing the game i do not think pre-cu was fixable, it was just wayyy to buggy , everytime something pre-cu was fixed a new exploit reared its ugly head that needed to be fixed, i didnt understand that then but i do now (as i was angry too until i realized) that this was the only way to fix the trash heap that was swg, I am finding it even more enjoyable now than before, me and my son just resubbed and are having a blast on bria.
The bait and switcch was them stringing along players with the CH revamp with the TOOW expansion. Then getting rid of the whole proffession all togeither. As of late, if you read these forums you can clearly see SOE had a hidden agenda and hid it from the players to keep them paying as they developed the NGE.
I didn't read the thread.. I read the blog (aka follow the link).
I am going to comment on that..
The saddest thing is that they still don't get it. List off I worked blah blah.. you are wrong to think this game or that was fun. You didn't really enjoy it..
I'd love to compare resumes with him directly someday... and work experience/success.
I'm going to pretend to have logic here and:
You launch a game with issues (all mmo's have issues). You have features that didn't make it live or don't work (pretty common as well). Yet instead of fixing issues and finishing implementation, you add more balance breaking things or did nothing.
Then the solution became to do it all over from scratch because.. people were leaving.
Now if you can't look at that and see the logic problem.. you don't belong in game development. Still trying to sell the same f'ud up mistake years later is just as bad.
"oh it could have worked if.."
Well you know.. IF you had fixed stuff, finished stuff.. implemented promised stuff... it probably would have worked as well.
SWG was a failure with 200/180k subs? *ponders*
Its funny because before WoW launched SWG was second to... EQ1..
Star Wars a large IP? sure.. movies books... how well did most of those lucas arts star wars games sell? As compared to the few that actually.. sold.. at all... oh that's right not many. This goes back many years the list of successful LA games with the star wars brand is much shorter than the successful one. Altho that was when they were pushing the RTS games over and over and over.
So somehow this all translates that SWG should have had WoW numbers... *ponders*
warcraft.. a computer game series.. might actually have computer game.. fans.
In fact if WoW hadn't launched SWG would have been a "success" .. any MMO that had ever hit at least 100k subs was a success then.
There are 3 large mistakes with SWG to be honest.. or at least I can cut it down to 3.
1) Instead of fixing/finishing/implementing.. you flushed it and started over and lost your player base.
2) Someone thought that a movie/book based IP would translate into a huge MMO IP. In my opinion this was the biggest mistake.. they had no clue what the demographic was.. or actually bought into the idea that star wars fans were created with EP1 and thus.. all gamed.
3) They still don't get the fact that the NGE would have never worked except as a seperate product marketed to a different audience. Which leads right into the I apologize.. I made a mistake but just because I didn't have time to polish the turd before it got dumped out.
I pretty much shut up about Pre-CU.. I try to avoid getting into discussions about it anymore.
I wish this guy.. would do the same.. because no matter how he tries to twist it into an apology.. he's still trying to claim it was the right thing to do.
.... *epic fail* ...
Pre-CU was still around I'd still be running 9 accounts to this day.
Why? because every other MMO out is a level/class based pos clone of EQ1/WoW and every game in between.
Dare.. to be different... stick with what you make/market.. and fix/implement as needed.
/endrant/ramble.. and I'll take another long break from pre-cu related threads (there was much rejoicing).
The eula clearly sais online play may be subject to changes without notice at any time. Also you can not switch and bait that which you do not own as also the eula clearly states by agreeing to this eula you herby agree that you do not own this or any other virtual items within this game from soe and La.
That whole EULA argument is a palid excuse and it has been argued successfully that it does not apply to many of the circumstances that occured with the NGE. EVen the developer in question admits numerous times that it was WRONG. And even if by some small miracle, the EULA could in fact cover things like the Ranger Revamp ploy - the fact is (since moral concepts seem to be flying around here today) just because they have the right to do it - DOESN"T make it right.
That fact was reinforced with the irrefutable proof that is the difference between subscriptions of the PreCU and the NGE. SOE pulled their bait and switch - thousands upon thousands left. Their name becoming mud on forums and news releases everywhere.
As for the whole you don't own virtual items argument - SOE opened pandora's box with the ability to purchase items in game. That one will be working itself to a head soon enough when they implement it full on in their next mmo.
They outline the fact that the game was pretty sucky to begin with and was failing before the CU and they tried to fix it. the fact that the original version was overglorified was outlined and the bleeding of subscribers was outlined. So like any company would do when trying to improve their bottom line they made a decision and ran with it.
Outlining a problem and understanding the problem are two completely separate things. The CU and the NGE weren't the answer to the problem. SWG didn't need overhauls it needed tweaks.
The CU and the NGE were like taking your car with an 8 cylinder engine into the shop because it makes a funny noise and getting back the car with a 4 cylinder engine--A 4 cylinder engine missing it's pistons, spark-plugs, crankshaft, and camshafts.
Until you cancel your subscription, you are only helping to continue the cycle of mediocrity.
Comments
Would you please PM me a copy of the original blog before he deleted most of his disclosures?
Pm'd.
I am keeping copies of his various incarnations as posts on my site. TG also has it posted.
Well, I've only seen the latest incarnation of his blog, so perhaps I missed all the fun. It was a good read, I thought it was candid and apologetic. Did you expect him to get on his knees and beg the players forgiveness?
They were given a directive to make drastic changes to make the subs more in line with WOW. They took a shot, and failed miserably at it (for reasons which he detailed).
He took responsibility for the blame where it was due and provided facts that other folks here somehow refute using numbers from dubious sources.
I'd say his post at the moment is reasoned and well thought out. Unlike most of the replies I've read here.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
What a complete dumbass that guy is.
Atleast finally someone from $OE admits that they completely f*cked up and that $med is a lieing peace of $hit!
To say that SWG was shite or that even the Jedi system was shite is nuts, the game and systems were great but $OE being the a$$ hats that hey are managed to completely f*ck it up.
What a donkeys ass.
I posted this thread because he tells us that not only did they keep the old code but they kept working on it incase the NGE was pulled. This goes directly against what we were told by Smed on several occasions. No chance for rollbacks or classic servers because this code was "lost". Maintaining seperate code was too hard, huh? Odd - they managed to do so for 4-6 weeks of the "hardest crunching" that dev has ever done.
That and the fact that he admits they knew they would lose the 200k of subscribers they already had. Stating that fact, in itself, is absolutely stunning. Was it his decision? Nope. Its just more proof that SOE cares little for its customer base and would sell them out at the drop of the hat if they think they can make more money than what they are currently bringing in.
They could have done other things to make the game fun. Like they could have fixed battlegrounds, or put caps on dots, resists, etc. as has all been stated before. Instead they made a whole new game that we didn't want.
What gets me is the whole time they were working on this stuff in secret they were stringing us along with promises they never intended to keep, Pathetic.
Also, this guy's post is very insightful as to what went down, but with all the profanity and stuff he comes off less than professional, which is something that also afflicted SWG. It was a lack of respect that ultimately doomed the game, as they didn't give two cents about 200k people having fun. What kind of game developer is that? Not a good one in my book.
Ultimately the blame is shifted though. He was partly responsible but like all bad organizational decisions the person who ultimately screwed up and is responsible for giving the go ahead remains hidden. I work in an organization filled with mba's, master's degree, some phd's and lots of medical degrees. Trust me when I say only a person with an advanced degree could screw up this bad.
OM NOM NOM.
Of course the old code is still around. In fact, I'd be surprised if they didn't have code for each version of the game in a code vault somewhere. Wouldn't make sense not to have old code for "just in case" scenarios.
Until you cancel your subscription, you are only helping to continue the cycle of mediocrity.
Yes, you are right TookyG. ALL software developer use a versioning tool such as Perforce,Subversion, MS SourceSafe etc (among others) to archive and update their versions. Without these tools the programs could not be created, it would be impossible.
I am a developer who has worked at several game companies, and I have never EVER seen a case of a version not being archived and then not being accessable. EVER. It's a ridiculous unbelievable excuse.
There is no way they don't have access to a functioning version of SWG Pre-CU, CU or any other version. It's simply another lie handed out by Smed and crew. Nuff said. I honestly couldn't believe that they actually said that. That was one of the few moments right after the NGE bomb was dropped that it was obvious how dumb they think their customers actually are (the Nancy quote was the most blatant giveaway).
I'm thinking you missed the inflammatory comments that have now been deleted. What's up there now is something you might hire a p.r. person to write after you've really made yourself look like an ass.
Nicely said, and I'm not offended by the advanced degree critique lol, the point is well taken. This has upper level management fingerprints on it, whatever their education.
Kind of funny how they bow up and become defensive when their former customers speak their mind. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, it don't feel so good does it?
Que up James Kirk voice/ They still... just... don't... get it, do they?
Thought about it.
I think it's interesting that this guy admits that Jedi were not available at launch. That's false advertising.
The second thing is that NO ONE, especially a game programmer could possibly have looked at the NGE and went "wow"...unless the only programming/video games they have experience with is from an Atari 2600. Even as a WoW knock off, the NGE is crappy and pathetic.
One of the things that floored me about the NGE was how old and dated it looked and felt - and I didn't even try it until two years after it came out!
If this guy truly believes it HE IS ON CRACK.
I can't believe that even after 2-3 years of this mess with loads of people leaving, tons of complaints and negative press they haven't rolled back the servers.
There is a new Star Wars movie on the way. If SOE has an expansion in the works, I haven't heard about it - which is strange because usually they can't shut up about such things. The last expansion was timed for the DVD release of Episode 3.
This leads me to believe the game is truly dead. Not just on lifesupport, but dead.
The guy apologised and its still not accepted. Well a bunch of people apologised and no one accepts it.
They outline the fact that the game was pretty sucky to begin with and was failing before the CU and they tried to fix it.
the fact that the original version was overglorified was outlined and the bleeding of subscribers was outlined. So like any company would do when trying to improve their bottom line they made a decision and ran with it.
So after god knows how long they stil are apologising. It does appear that something that many of us have done awhile back (forgivness for a mistake as they were mistakes not purposeful and willful attempts to screw up a game.... it was something they thought they were doing tom ake it better..) that a pocket of an old community can't forgive or forget and either move onto another game or whatever.
It IS over. Unless you want his real life blood or something its over.
I see a post in this thread threatening bodily harm. That's kinda wacked out in its own right. Its out of proportion again. It was just a game and its now an *old* game. What more is there left to do? NOthing.
/shrugs
He makes a lot of disclosures actually. The non-availability of jedi is only one of them.
Other companies say, we're working on a chapter that will soon introduce unlockable characters. They don't market the product as if the planned feature already exists.
City of Villains for example just released an issue with unlockable villains. People knew that this was a plan. Nobody was told that they just had to keep searching for something that didn't exist in order to unlock.
Also, NCsoft advertises a plan and then implements the plan advertised. The exact opposite was done with the NGE. Trials of Obi-Wan and overall profession revamps indicated a plan to stick with the Combat Upgrade version of the game. This went along with SOE president John Smedley's remark, the CU is here to stay.
What is so outrageous is that while all of this marketting was being done, the execs had already decided to scrap most of what was being pushed in favour of the NGE.
I appreciate Dan's restoration of most of his original post. People copied it already anyways, so you can't really unsay what's been said on the internet.
I also appreciate his removal of much of the derogatory comments directed at players.
I further appreciate his indication that mistakes were made on various levels including marketting and executive decision making. I agree. I'm not going to scapegoat this guy, although I believe he had a role to play, as he acknowledges.
If you read this, thanks for being informative, and becoming more civil Dan.
they guy apologized and at the same time told people to "eat a male member."
What they did to try and fix it did not fix it, which means they were wrong about what was wrong with it. That is no justification for what they did.
IT was outlined that the CU was bleeding customers. We all knew that (although SOE has never admitted that, they have made the false claim that the CU GAINED them customers). They falsely assessed what was wrong (mismanagement) and decided to do the wrong thing (screw current customers) to try and save it. That backfired, and they have not rectified this.
They need to do more than apologize. They need to make the game a good game again, one BETTER than pre-CU, by incorporating back all that was good about pre-CU and fixing all the problems that there were pre-CU. Instead they have not done this, and have compounded their error.
There is a LOT left to do. man up and fix it. Make up for the error. simple as that.
PS. What is actually extremely out of proportion is YOU getting so upset about what people SAY about what SOE did. That is most interesting, and out of proportion. Wildly so. One can understand a person who feels he has been wronged being upset, but for one to defend wrongdoers with such vehemence is mind boggling.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Lets get somthing clear skippy I threatend no one. I said there were people out there looking to stomp his ass, and that is the truth, and some of these people I would not want to piss off. Is it whacked? sure it is, but some folks are that seriouse about their gaming and really don't take kindly to some arrogant asshat calling them stupid then telling them to suck cock. It's called not letting your allagator mouth over load your tweety bird ass. It is also no doubt why the little coward deleted a lot of the Smack talk he layed out in the first place.
Someone should have sat SOE/LA down and made them understand the total consequences of their actions. In my own personal opinion, they should have just fixed what was broke and not rushed the jedi proffession.
If after that, they still felt the game was not were they wanted it to be, then they should have opened one new server with the NGE concept and logged all community feedback that would have been coming in.
If the new server and NGE would have gotten rave reviews, then make the total change., but to do it the way SOE did it, was right out bait and switch fraud.
Exactly. Well said.
Geeze, he really did edit it didn't he? I like both versions of his post.
I appreciate his taking the time to write his blog. If I make a mistake at work, I have to fix my mistake if possible and explain to the customer what happened and what we did to fix it. So years later we are finding out what happened. I'd like to know the plan to fix it?
From what I read, he learned some lessons from all this. I think reflecting on a mistake and learning from it is a great step to making sure it doesn't happen again. But nothing has been done to fix the mistake. All we hear are a lot of excuses.
Also, he says at that time the subscription base was more like 160 to 180k, rather than 200k. My God, what must the subscription base be now?! It has to be around 10k, not including station access pass.
Someone should have sat SOE/LA down and made them understand the total consequences of their actions. In my own personal opinion, they should have just fixed what was broke and not rushed the jedi proffession.
If after that, they still felt the game was not were they wanted it to be, then they should have opened one new server with the NGE concept and logged all community feedback that would have been coming in.
If the new server and NGE would have gotten rave reviews, then make the total change., but to do it the way SOE did it, was right out bait and switch fraud.
Forgiveness is a basic quality of civilzed society. Even the penal system has a policy of forgivness in that once you do your time its over and laws that make it so that the person is protected after he has "apologised" to the system by doing his time. Murderers are forgiven and given a chance. Its something you should learn to do especially when someone admits thatt he screwed up.
If you make a mistake at work do you get given another chance or raked over the coals for years on end and constantly given a hard time regardless of the fact you have been promoted, done a good job after the fact etc.
If you spill milk on the floor and I as your wife (a female) find you dont clean it up do i spend the next 5 years screaming at you for not noticing and making a mistake or do i point it out, clean it up say my piece and move on
Forgiveness is a basic positive human trait that is a good quality to have. Hate and anger on the other side are totally useless and serve no real purpose (except possibly to give you gas, ulcers and a headache).
Someone should have sat SOE/LA down and made them understand the total consequences of their actions. In my own personal opinion, they should have just fixed what was broke and not rushed the jedi proffession.
If after that, they still felt the game was not were they wanted it to be, then they should have opened one new server with the NGE concept and logged all community feedback that would have been coming in.
If the new server and NGE would have gotten rave reviews, then make the total change., but to do it the way SOE did it, was right out bait and switch fraud.
Forgiveness is a basic quality of civilzed society. Even the penal system has a policy of forgivness in that once you do your time its over and laws that make it so that the person is protected after he has "apologised" to the system by doing his time. Murderers are forgiven and given a chance. Its something you should learn to do especially when someone admits thatt he screwed up.
If you make a mistake at work do you get given another chance or raked over the coals for years on end and constantly given a hard time regardless of the fact you have been promoted, done a good job after the fact etc.
If you spill milk on the floor and I as your wife (a female) find you dont clean it up do i spend the next 5 years screaming at you for not noticing and making a mistake or do i point it out, clean it up say my piece and move on
Forgiveness is a basic positive human trait that is a good quality to have. Hate and anger on the other side are totally useless and serve no real purpose (except possibly to give you gas, ulcers and a headache).
To forgive is to be human i will agree, but your example of forgiveness on murders and such i do not agree. The thing is, SOE screwed up. Do i still care, not reallly. I unsubbed right when the NGE hit and only go back with the vet passes.
Did this smuck apologize, yes he did. Do i have to hold him accountable for his past actions, no i don't, but anyone with half a brain can see not only was he pround of what he did, he still relishies in it.
The fact still remains that SOE pulled one of the biggest shame and bait and switch i haver seen.
Someone should have sat SOE/LA down and made them understand the total consequences of their actions. In my own personal opinion, they should have just fixed what was broke and not rushed the jedi proffession.
If after that, they still felt the game was not were they wanted it to be, then they should have opened one new server with the NGE concept and logged all community feedback that would have been coming in.
If the new server and NGE would have gotten rave reviews, then make the total change., but to do it the way SOE did it, was right out bait and switch fraud.
The eula clearly sais online play may be subject to changes without notice at any time. Also you can not switch and bait that which you do not own as also the eula clearly states by agreeing to this eula you herby agree that you do not own this or any other virtual items within this game from soe and La. As for fixing the game i do not think pre-cu was fixable, it was just wayyy to buggy , everytime something pre-cu was fixed a new exploit reared its ugly head that needed to be fixed, i didnt understand that then but i do now (as i was angry too until i realized) that this was the only way to fix the trash heap that was swg, I am finding it even more enjoyable now than before, me and my son just resubbed and are having a blast on bria.
playing eq2 and two worlds
Someone should have sat SOE/LA down and made them understand the total consequences of their actions. In my own personal opinion, they should have just fixed what was broke and not rushed the jedi proffession.
If after that, they still felt the game was not were they wanted it to be, then they should have opened one new server with the NGE concept and logged all community feedback that would have been coming in.
If the new server and NGE would have gotten rave reviews, then make the total change., but to do it the way SOE did it, was right out bait and switch fraud.
The eula clearly sais online play may be subject to changes without notice at any time. Also you can not switch and bait that which you do not own as also the eula clearly states by agreeing to this eula you herby agree that you do not own this or any other virtual items within this game from soe and La. As for fixing the game i do not think pre-cu was fixable, it was just wayyy to buggy , everytime something pre-cu was fixed a new exploit reared its ugly head that needed to be fixed, i didnt understand that then but i do now (as i was angry too until i realized) that this was the only way to fix the trash heap that was swg, I am finding it even more enjoyable now than before, me and my son just resubbed and are having a blast on bria.
The bait and switcch was them stringing along players with the CH revamp with the TOOW expansion. Then getting rid of the whole proffession all togeither. As of late, if you read these forums you can clearly see SOE had a hidden agenda and hid it from the players to keep them paying as they developed the NGE.
I didn't read the thread.. I read the blog (aka follow the link).
I am going to comment on that..
The saddest thing is that they still don't get it. List off I worked blah blah.. you are wrong to think this game or that was fun. You didn't really enjoy it..
I'd love to compare resumes with him directly someday... and work experience/success.
I'm going to pretend to have logic here and:
You launch a game with issues (all mmo's have issues). You have features that didn't make it live or don't work (pretty common as well). Yet instead of fixing issues and finishing implementation, you add more balance breaking things or did nothing.
Then the solution became to do it all over from scratch because.. people were leaving.
Now if you can't look at that and see the logic problem.. you don't belong in game development. Still trying to sell the same f'ud up mistake years later is just as bad.
"oh it could have worked if.."
Well you know.. IF you had fixed stuff, finished stuff.. implemented promised stuff... it probably would have worked as well.
SWG was a failure with 200/180k subs? *ponders*
Its funny because before WoW launched SWG was second to... EQ1..
Star Wars a large IP? sure.. movies books... how well did most of those lucas arts star wars games sell? As compared to the few that actually.. sold.. at all... oh that's right not many. This goes back many years the list of successful LA games with the star wars brand is much shorter than the successful one. Altho that was when they were pushing the RTS games over and over and over.
So somehow this all translates that SWG should have had WoW numbers... *ponders*
warcraft.. a computer game series.. might actually have computer game.. fans.
In fact if WoW hadn't launched SWG would have been a "success" .. any MMO that had ever hit at least 100k subs was a success then.
There are 3 large mistakes with SWG to be honest.. or at least I can cut it down to 3.
1) Instead of fixing/finishing/implementing.. you flushed it and started over and lost your player base.
2) Someone thought that a movie/book based IP would translate into a huge MMO IP. In my opinion this was the biggest mistake.. they had no clue what the demographic was.. or actually bought into the idea that star wars fans were created with EP1 and thus.. all gamed.
3) They still don't get the fact that the NGE would have never worked except as a seperate product marketed to a different audience. Which leads right into the I apologize.. I made a mistake but just because I didn't have time to polish the turd before it got dumped out.
I pretty much shut up about Pre-CU.. I try to avoid getting into discussions about it anymore.
I wish this guy.. would do the same.. because no matter how he tries to twist it into an apology.. he's still trying to claim it was the right thing to do.
.... *epic fail* ...
Pre-CU was still around I'd still be running 9 accounts to this day.
Why? because every other MMO out is a level/class based pos clone of EQ1/WoW and every game in between.
Dare.. to be different... stick with what you make/market.. and fix/implement as needed.
/endrant/ramble.. and I'll take another long break from pre-cu related threads (there was much rejoicing).
That whole EULA argument is a palid excuse and it has been argued successfully that it does not apply to many of the circumstances that occured with the NGE. EVen the developer in question admits numerous times that it was WRONG. And even if by some small miracle, the EULA could in fact cover things like the Ranger Revamp ploy - the fact is (since moral concepts seem to be flying around here today) just because they have the right to do it - DOESN"T make it right.
That fact was reinforced with the irrefutable proof that is the difference between subscriptions of the PreCU and the NGE. SOE pulled their bait and switch - thousands upon thousands left. Their name becoming mud on forums and news releases everywhere.
As for the whole you don't own virtual items argument - SOE opened pandora's box with the ability to purchase items in game. That one will be working itself to a head soon enough when they implement it full on in their next mmo.
Outlining a problem and understanding the problem are two completely separate things. The CU and the NGE weren't the answer to the problem. SWG didn't need overhauls it needed tweaks.
The CU and the NGE were like taking your car with an 8 cylinder engine into the shop because it makes a funny noise and getting back the car with a 4 cylinder engine--A 4 cylinder engine missing it's pistons, spark-plugs, crankshaft, and camshafts.
Until you cancel your subscription, you are only helping to continue the cycle of mediocrity.