This man isn't sorry for anything. I notice my reply while a tad abrasive didn't use any words worse then what he uses in his original blog, has been deleted. While yes this is his blog and he can do what he wants, he certainly does not want to 'face the music' and hear what is really on peoples minds. Apparently he still has a problem with how his past customers feel by deleting selected responses.
This does not show me a person who is sorry. This shows me a man who is working with a current development company and who might be concerned his old SWG days will catch up to him.
The guy apologised and its still not accepted. Well a bunch of people apologised and no one accepts it. They outline the fact that the game was pretty sucky to begin with and was failing before the CU and they tried to fix it. the fact that the original version was overglorified was outlined and the bleeding of subscribers was outlined. So like any company would do when trying to improve their bottom line they made a decision and ran with it. So after god knows how long they stil are apologising. It does appear that something that many of us have done awhile back (forgivness for a mistake as they were mistakes not purposeful and willful attempts to screw up a game.... it was something they thought they were doing tom ake it better..) that a pocket of an old community can't forgive or forget and either move onto another game or whatever. It IS over. Unless you want his real life blood or something its over. I see a post in this thread threatening bodily harm. That's kinda wacked out in its own right. Its out of proportion again. It was just a game and its now an *old* game. What more is there left to do? NOthing. /shrugs
Yes the game is old now, but nobody should just forgive and forget what SOE pulled. That would give a green ligh to every other dev company to do the same. Let's remember that this goes way beyond launching a game without everything that's supposed to be in it. This was a total changing of the whole core game in itself.
Someone should have sat SOE/LA down and made them understand the total consequences of their actions. In my own personal opinion, they should have just fixed what was broke and not rushed the jedi proffession.
If after that, they still felt the game was not were they wanted it to be, then they should have opened one new server with the NGE concept and logged all community feedback that would have been coming in.
If the new server and NGE would have gotten rave reviews, then make the total change., but to do it the way SOE did it, was right out bait and switch fraud.
Forgiveness is a basic quality of civilzed society. Even the penal system has a policy of forgivness in that once you do your time its over and laws that make it so that the person is protected after he has "apologised" to the system by doing his time. Murderers are forgiven and given a chance. Its something you should learn to do especially when someone admits thatt he screwed up.
If you make a mistake at work do you get given another chance or raked over the coals for years on end and constantly given a hard time regardless of the fact you have been promoted, done a good job after the fact etc.
If you spill milk on the floor and I as your wife (a female) find you dont clean it up do i spend the next 5 years screaming at you for not noticing and making a mistake or do i point it out, clean it up say my piece and move on
Forgiveness is a basic positive human trait that is a good quality to have. Hate and anger on the other side are totally useless and serve no real purpose (except possibly to give you gas, ulcers and a headache).
Ummax - I'm wondering if you work for Sony.
SOE isn't sorry. If they were, they wouldn't have LIED TO US OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
If SOE was sorry, they would roll back the servers.
If SOE was sorry, they NEVER would have asked us to pay a subscription fee to beta test the CU and the NGE.
If SOE was sorry, they wouldn't have spindoctors everywhere working damage control. They wouldn't be complaining to media outlets simply reporting the story. They wouldn't be censoring their boards to stop people who have complaints that have merit.
I think SOE and their programming team is sorry they got caught.
I think SOE is sorry that they're losing money. But their solution is to blame the idiot peons who are quiting for not reveling in their genius programmers (like this guy.)
If you want my money, make a product I like. You get bonus points if you don't BLATANTLY AND KNOWINGLY lie to me in the process. Why is that so hard?
The old system was good. It needed tweeking, but all games do.
You could have just told us that: We WANT to do this, We NEED to fix that, etc. But instead, they told us that those things were already there, that bugs were just in our heads, etc.
SOE isn't sorry for anything. Heck - this guy in his original post didn't sound the slightest bit sorry for anything. And after all the lies, why should I believe the apology anyway - especially since they haven't done anything concrete to make it up to their customer base.
Since SOE supporters are now joining this thread saying what a nice apology was offered by Dan, here's the original version, complete with insults and compound words. This is the "apology" we were offered. This may explain the response much better than the twice edited version now on Dan's blog. I'm going to try to edit some of the things that MMORPG would rightly delete, but you'll still get the idea (edits will have a *):
"Caveat - This is not an argument. I will attempt to speak honestly about these elements, to give you perspective. For those of you who want to misconstrue it, or perceive it as some ?ZOMG YOU ROONED SWG?, please proceed to the back of the room where you can quietly eat a d*ck. OM NOM NOM.
For the rest, I look forward to a well versed and intelligent discourse on the nature of a creative business, and how to better approach difficult situations in the future.
begin article here. You d*ck eaters quiet down. *om nom nom*
So, I just logged back in to discover that a bunch of you whackjobs have turned one of these threads into some misguided personal grievance with the SWG NGE.
So first.
If I have ever created something that you didn?t like or that brought you sadness, I apologize.
That is never the goal of a game developer.
However.
Let us set the record straight.
Let us set the history of the Star Wars Galaxies NGE into something that makes a little more sense to those from the outside.
First, some ground rules.
I am a game designer. I make video games. I manage teams, develop features, and turn the creative insanity that is game development into demonstrable and sellable products.
A lot of this manifests itself in the form of direct implementation. Scripting, writing, hands on content development.
I do not sit in a room and give orders. Generally, nobody I?ve worked with ever did this.
We provided a means to create something to make money.
As professional developers, it is our job to execute on these types of creative endeavors within the context of limited finances, linear time, and sometimes explicit creative direction.
Sometimes this context is direction from Raph Koster. Sometimes it is to meet a marketing need, other times it is one of business decisions.
At times, I describe it as, ?If someone asks for pink fluffy bunnies, we give then bunnies done to the best of our abilities. If we don?t like those, we can still deliver the best bunnies based off of our understanding of the marketplace.?
That is what we do. All of this is tempered with reality. Sometimes people get sick. Sometimes things take longer than we?d like. Sometimes things end up more or less fun than we intended.
This is the job of a designer.
This is what I did on UO, Galaxies, JTL and every other game I worked and am working on.
So we were given the directive to make Galaxies better.
Not just make Galaxies better, but make it succesful. Not the 200k subs it had, but really succesful. The idea was that we had the most valuable IP in the entire world, and we f*cked it up to the point of having 200k subs.
And yes, all 200k of you were important, but 200k means nothing in the scheme of things.
I worked on Galaxies for around 5 and a half years. That?s a long time.
Before we launched, I wrote the combat system, mission system, spawning system.
I wrote the combat model for JTL, implemented Content development tools and ship interior systems and more.
Hell, I implemented the original Jedi System in 2 weeks after we launched. Not because it was how we wanted it, but because we had 2 weeks to do it.
I have the understanding of where we went wrong and how. I see the misteps and how the experience was misaligned with what most people wanted from a Star Wars game.
So, when the NGE push came along, we were asked to reimagine the game.
Not just small changes, but rebuild it.
And it was needed. When we were asked, we were bleeding subscribers.
If I remember correctly, somewhere around 10k a month. LOSING 10,000 subs a month.
It was not idyllic. You can remember it as an amazing game, but it wasn?t.
Hell, all of you who recall the grand ole days of launch seem to conveniently forget that everyone quit shortly afterwards.
It?s similiar to the UO rose colored glasses. Everyone remembers the positives, but nobody remembers how unpalatable UO was before Trammel. Nobody acknowledges that after Renaissance, UO?s numbers rose from 110k to 220k.
But I digress.
WOW was out. SWG was niche and clunky.
We were asked to imagine something new and unique. To push it to the next level. Originally, it was specced as a tutorial. A tutorial paired with a new marketing push, new and grandiose relaunch that would recapture the magic that we missed when we first released.
But a tutorial wasn?t enough. We scrambled to come up with something more impressive.
We tested out a new combat system on a whim. I did a quick prototype and we discussed it internally.
The difference was the control scheme, not the rules. You clicked, You shot.
When we demonstrated it, the first comment was ?Wooooah?.?
And the producer left the room.
He came back shortly and was torn. He knew that we had to make the change. It was THAT much better.
We did a side by side comparison. We tried to play the old system. We couldn?t.
However, we made a mistake.
Somewhere during the discussions it was strongly recommended that we streamline our characters.
People wanted something simpler, more direct, more accessible.
We told them. ?If you do this, you will lose all 200k subscribers. It is that significant.?
It was explained that we would gain more due to the marketing push and relaunch.
So, we pushed forward.
If I remember the dates correctly, we did our NGE conversion in 2-3 months of solid crunch. It was some of the heaviest crunch I?ve ever done.
We had an immovable date, and an insane set of features.
We were working in parallel, maintaining old code on the off chance that we would pull the plug on the implementation.
We launched, the marketing push failed, and we lost subscribers.
It was a misread at an organizational level. Marketing, Production, community. You name it.
Epoch grade f*ckup.
But.
The f*ckup was NOT the changes.
Let me say it again, louder, for those who do not get it.
THE F*CKUP WAS NOT THE CHANGES.
Galaxies NGE made it more playable. I think it lost a lot of the Raphy goodness that makes MMOs work, and that was a profound loss.
But the general idea was sound.
The control scheme was a good idea.
Losing the character skill system was not.
But, that?s not the point.
The point, the f*ckup, the mistake that we made, was answering an unasked question.
?Can you change an MMO drastically after it launches??
Categorically, NO.
If we were to do it again, and wanted to make those types of changes, you have to make a new game.
Relaunch with a new title.
Or shut down Galaxies and relaunch for real.
You cannot change it at runtime.
BUT!
And this is a HUGE but.
Right as I left SOE, post NGE..
Galaxies was subscriber positive.
A few thousand, but it was a far cry from the 10k per month we were losing.
A lot of you were upset. A lot of you still seem to be upset. I?m sorry if you feel betrayed, or that we ruined something you liked.
But I?m proud of the work I and the rest of the team did. I?m proud of the choices we made, the direction we took. ALL of SWG.
JTL, NGE, Launch, Jedi F*ckups. You name it.
We made mistakes. We made a LOT of mistakes. We crunched, we argued, we fired people, we hired people.
But we f*cking launched a godd*mned game. We launched a SECOND succesful MMO (post-uo). We made a f*cking amazing space game using the same f*cking game engine, integrated action combat, interior spaceships and in 9 MOTHERF*CKING MONTHS, all while running a succesful, cash positive product.
NGE was done in 3-4 months by a team of people. I am proud of the work that we did, even if I am torn about the end product.
So those who think it?s about blame or credit or who ruined what or how great it used to be when kids didn?t swear so much?
Take a deep breath and move on. Times change. Games don?t last forever.
Except UO. It?s still running. And I bet people are still pissed about some f*cked up code I wrote in 1997.
That, I am genuinely sorry for.
And Finally, a telling Anecdote that I think came from Gordon Walton originally.
A cancellation email from UO came in. A diatribe, really.
It want on and on about how shitty the game was, how it was the worst piece of crap he?d ever played.
So, someone called him to find out some information.
They asked how long he played for.
His answer?
2 years. "
When I read this I saw a lot of insults, and a lot of justification and defensiveness. I saw "I'm sorry" but that was between "go eat d*ck" and "I'm proud of what we did etc." Tbh, the guy sounds extremely hostile towards players and very unremorseful for the impact of his company's actions. At best, this apology read like "we made a mistake, but we had to, and I'm proud of it, so get over it, or go eat d*ck."
He's rewritten the blog a few times now, maybe his apologies will get better with practice. After reading the first version though, I can't help doubting his sincerity, even though I'm glad he deleted the most offensive insults.
Originally posted by ummax Originally posted by musicmann Originally posted by ummax The guy apologised and its still not accepted. Well a bunch of people apologised and no one accepts it. They outline the fact that the game was pretty sucky to begin with and was failing before the CU and they tried to fix it. the fact that the original version was overglorified was outlined and the bleeding of subscribers was outlined. So like any company would do when trying to improve their bottom line they made a decision and ran with it. So after god knows how long they stil are apologising. It does appear that something that many of us have done awhile back (forgivness for a mistake as they were mistakes not purposeful and willful attempts to screw up a game.... it was something they thought they were doing tom ake it better..) that a pocket of an old community can't forgive or forget and either move onto another game or whatever. It IS over. Unless you want his real life blood or something its over. I see a post in this thread threatening bodily harm. That's kinda wacked out in its own right. Its out of proportion again. It was just a game and its now an *old* game. What more is there left to do? NOthing. /shrugs
Yes the game is old now, but nobody should just forgive and forget what SOE pulled. That would give a green ligh to every other dev company to do the same. Let's remember that this goes way beyond launching a game without everything that's supposed to be in it. This was a total changing of the whole core game in itself.
Someone should have sat SOE/LA down and made them understand the total consequences of their actions. In my own personal opinion, they should have just fixed what was broke and not rushed the jedi proffession. If after that, they still felt the game was not were they wanted it to be, then they should have opened one new server with the NGE concept and logged all community feedback that would have been coming in. If the new server and NGE would have gotten rave reviews, then make the total change., but to do it the way SOE did it, was right out bait and switch fraud.
Forgiveness is a basic quality of civilzed society. Even the penal system has a policy of forgivness in that once you do your time its over and laws that make it so that the person is protected after he has "apologised" to the system by doing his time. Murderers are forgiven and given a chance. Its something you should learn to do especially when someone admits thatt he screwed up. If you make a mistake at work do you get given another chance or raked over the coals for years on end and constantly given a hard time regardless of the fact you have been promoted, done a good job after the fact etc. If you spill milk on the floor and I as your wife (a female) find you dont clean it up do i spend the next 5 years screaming at you for not noticing and making a mistake or do i point it out, clean it up say my piece and move on Forgiveness is a basic positive human trait that is a good quality to have. Hate and anger on the other side are totally useless and serve no real purpose (except possibly to give you gas, ulcers and a headache).
This has nothing to do with forgiveness, or anger. In fact, the angriest person I see here is you.
I forgave them long ago. Others haven't. In that I am not God, it is not up to me, or my job to FORCE or berate others to forgive people. I certainly am not affected by anyone's anger -- it's all good in freedom, a freedom which YOU seem to have a problem with, so much that you need to defend wrongdoers and attack the victims because they do not have YOUR "forgiving" soul.
Originally posted by ArcAngel3 Since SOE supporters are now joining this thread saying what a nice apology was offered by Dan, here's the original version, complete with insults and compound words. This is the "apology" we were offered. This may explain the response much better than the twice edited version now on Dan's blog. I'm going to try to edit some of the things that MMORPG would rightly delete, but you'll still get the idea (edits will have a *): "Caveat - This is not an argument. I will attempt to speak honestly about these elements, to give you perspective. For those of you who want to misconstrue it, or perceive it as some ?ZOMG YOU ROONED SWG?, please proceed to the back of the room where you can quietly eat a d*ck. OM NOM NOM. For the rest, I look forward to a well versed and intelligent discourse on the nature of a creative business, and how to better approach difficult situations in the future. begin article here. You d*ck eaters quiet down. *om nom nom* So, I just logged back in to discover that a bunch of you whackjobs have turned one of these threads into some misguided personal grievance with the SWG NGE. So first. If I have ever created something that you didn?t like or that brought you sadness, I apologize. That is never the goal of a game developer. However. Let us set the record straight. Let us set the history of the Star Wars Galaxies NGE into something that makes a little more sense to those from the outside. First, some ground rules. I am a game designer. I make video games. I manage teams, develop features, and turn the creative insanity that is game development into demonstrable and sellable products. A lot of this manifests itself in the form of direct implementation. Scripting, writing, hands on content development. I do not sit in a room and give orders. Generally, nobody I?ve worked with ever did this. We provided a means to create something to make money. As professional developers, it is our job to execute on these types of creative endeavors within the context of limited finances, linear time, and sometimes explicit creative direction. Sometimes this context is direction from Raph Koster. Sometimes it is to meet a marketing need, other times it is one of business decisions. At times, I describe it as, ?If someone asks for pink fluffy bunnies, we give then bunnies done to the best of our abilities. If we don?t like those, we can still deliver the best bunnies based off of our understanding of the marketplace.? That is what we do. All of this is tempered with reality. Sometimes people get sick. Sometimes things take longer than we?d like. Sometimes things end up more or less fun than we intended. This is the job of a designer. This is what I did on UO, Galaxies, JTL and every other game I worked and am working on. So we were given the directive to make Galaxies better. Not just make Galaxies better, but make it succesful. Not the 200k subs it had, but really succesful. The idea was that we had the most valuable IP in the entire world, and we f*cked it up to the point of having 200k subs. And yes, all 200k of you were important, but 200k means nothing in the scheme of things. I worked on Galaxies for around 5 and a half years. That?s a long time. Before we launched, I wrote the combat system, mission system, spawning system. I wrote the combat model for JTL, implemented Content development tools and ship interior systems and more. Hell, I implemented the original Jedi System in 2 weeks after we launched. Not because it was how we wanted it, but because we had 2 weeks to do it. I have the understanding of where we went wrong and how. I see the misteps and how the experience was misaligned with what most people wanted from a Star Wars game. So, when the NGE push came along, we were asked to reimagine the game. Not just small changes, but rebuild it. And it was needed. When we were asked, we were bleeding subscribers. If I remember correctly, somewhere around 10k a month. LOSING 10,000 subs a month. It was not idyllic. You can remember it as an amazing game, but it wasn?t. Hell, all of you who recall the grand ole days of launch seem to conveniently forget that everyone quit shortly afterwards. It?s similiar to the UO rose colored glasses. Everyone remembers the positives, but nobody remembers how unpalatable UO was before Trammel. Nobody acknowledges that after Renaissance, UO?s numbers rose from 110k to 220k. But I digress. WOW was out. SWG was niche and clunky. We were asked to imagine something new and unique. To push it to the next level. Originally, it was specced as a tutorial. A tutorial paired with a new marketing push, new and grandiose relaunch that would recapture the magic that we missed when we first released. But a tutorial wasn?t enough. We scrambled to come up with something more impressive. We tested out a new combat system on a whim. I did a quick prototype and we discussed it internally. The difference was the control scheme, not the rules. You clicked, You shot. When we demonstrated it, the first comment was ?Wooooah?.? And the producer left the room. He came back shortly and was torn. He knew that we had to make the change. It was THAT much better. We did a side by side comparison. We tried to play the old system. We couldn?t. However, we made a mistake. Somewhere during the discussions it was strongly recommended that we streamline our characters. People wanted something simpler, more direct, more accessible. We told them. ?If you do this, you will lose all 200k subscribers. It is that significant.? It was explained that we would gain more due to the marketing push and relaunch. So, we pushed forward. If I remember the dates correctly, we did our NGE conversion in 2-3 months of solid crunch. It was some of the heaviest crunch I?ve ever done. We had an immovable date, and an insane set of features. We were working in parallel, maintaining old code on the off chance that we would pull the plug on the implementation. We launched, the marketing push failed, and we lost subscribers. It was a misread at an organizational level. Marketing, Production, community. You name it. Epoch grade f*ckup. But. The f*ckup was NOT the changes. Let me say it again, louder, for those who do not get it. THE F*CKUP WAS NOT THE CHANGES. Galaxies NGE made it more playable. I think it lost a lot of the Raphy goodness that makes MMOs work, and that was a profound loss. But the general idea was sound. The control scheme was a good idea. Losing the character skill system was not. But, that?s not the point. The point, the f*ckup, the mistake that we made, was answering an unasked question. ?Can you change an MMO drastically after it launches?? Categorically, NO. If we were to do it again, and wanted to make those types of changes, you have to make a new game. Relaunch with a new title. Or shut down Galaxies and relaunch for real. You cannot change it at runtime. BUT! And this is a HUGE but. Right as I left SOE, post NGE.. Galaxies was subscriber positive. A few thousand, but it was a far cry from the 10k per month we were losing. A lot of you were upset. A lot of you still seem to be upset. I?m sorry if you feel betrayed, or that we ruined something you liked. But I?m proud of the work I and the rest of the team did. I?m proud of the choices we made, the direction we took. ALL of SWG. JTL, NGE, Launch, Jedi F*ckups. You name it. We made mistakes. We made a LOT of mistakes. We crunched, we argued, we fired people, we hired people. But we f*cking launched a godd*mned game. We launched a SECOND succesful MMO (post-uo). We made a f*cking amazing space game using the same f*cking game engine, integrated action combat, interior spaceships and in 9 MOTHERF*CKING MONTHS, all while running a succesful, cash positive product. NGE was done in 3-4 months by a team of people. I am proud of the work that we did, even if I am torn about the end product. So those who think it?s about blame or credit or who ruined what or how great it used to be when kids didn?t swear so much? Take a deep breath and move on. Times change. Games don?t last forever. Except UO. It?s still running. And I bet people are still pissed about some f*cked up code I wrote in 1997. That, I am genuinely sorry for. And Finally, a telling Anecdote that I think came from Gordon Walton originally. A cancellation email from UO came in. A diatribe, really. It want on and on about how shitty the game was, how it was the worst piece of crap he?d ever played. So, someone called him to find out some information. They asked how long he played for. His answer? 2 years. "
When I read this I saw a lot of insults, and a lot of justification and defensiveness. I saw "I'm sorry" but that was between "go eat d*ck" and "I'm proud of what we did etc." Tbh, the guy sounds extremely hostile towards players and very unremorseful for the impact of his company's actions. At best, this apology read like "we made a mistake, but we had to, and I'm proud of it, so get over it, or go eat d*ck."
He's rewritten the blog a few times now, maybe his apologies will get better with practice. After reading the first version though, I can't help doubting his sincerity, even though I'm glad he deleted the most offensive insults.
When I read this (and I have read this several times) I read a man who sleeps with demons. And I feel nothing but sad sympathy.
Anyone who thinks the original blog is a sincere apology should try this experiment.
The next time you do something hurtful to a significant other tell them that you're sorry, but you had to do it, and you're actually proud of what you did, and that they should get over it, or go eat d*ck.
After you've done that, come back and let us all know how that worked out.
Originally posted by boognish75 Originally posted by musicmann Originally posted by ummax The guy apologised and its still not accepted. Well a bunch of people apologised and no one accepts it. They outline the fact that the game was pretty sucky to begin with and was failing before the CU and they tried to fix it. the fact that the original version was overglorified was outlined and the bleeding of subscribers was outlined. So like any company would do when trying to improve their bottom line they made a decision and ran with it. So after god knows how long they stil are apologising. It does appear that something that many of us have done awhile back (forgivness for a mistake as they were mistakes not purposeful and willful attempts to screw up a game.... it was something they thought they were doing tom ake it better..) that a pocket of an old community can't forgive or forget and either move onto another game or whatever. It IS over. Unless you want his real life blood or something its over. I see a post in this thread threatening bodily harm. That's kinda wacked out in its own right. Its out of proportion again. It was just a game and its now an *old* game. What more is there left to do? NOthing. /shrugs
Yes the game is old now, but nobody should just forgive and forget what SOE pulled. That would give a green ligh to every other dev company to do the same. Let's remember that this goes way beyond launching a game without everything that's supposed to be in it. This was a total changing of the whole core game in itself.
Someone should have sat SOE/LA down and made them understand the total consequences of their actions. In my own personal opinion, they should have just fixed what was broke and not rushed the jedi proffession. If after that, they still felt the game was not were they wanted it to be, then they should have opened one new server with the NGE concept and logged all community feedback that would have been coming in. If the new server and NGE would have gotten rave reviews, then make the total change., but to do it the way SOE did it, was right out bait and switch fraud.
The eula clearly sais online play may be subject to changes without notice at any time. Also you can not switch and bait that which you do not own as also the eula clearly states by agreeing to this eula you herby agree that you do not own this or any other virtual items within this game from soe and La. As for fixing the game i do not think pre-cu was fixable, it was just wayyy to buggy , everytime something pre-cu was fixed a new exploit reared its ugly head that needed to be fixed, i didnt understand that then but i do now (as i was angry too until i realized) that this was the only way to fix the trash heap that was swg, I am finding it even more enjoyable now than before, me and my son just resubbed and are having a blast on bria. The EULA argument, in that it is a non-negotiated contract, on;y goes as far as a "reasonable person's standard." NO way weere the changes wrought by the NGE reasonable. Thus, that argument fails.
Originally posted by ArcAngel3 Anyone who thinks the original blog is a sincere apology should try this experiment. The next time you do something hurtful to a significant other tell that you're sorry, but you had to do it, and you're actually proud of what you did, and that they should get over it, or go eat d*ck. After you've done that, come back and let us all know how that worked out.
The guy apologised and its still not accepted. Well a bunch of people apologised and no one accepts it.
They outline the fact that the game was pretty sucky to begin with and was failing before the CU and they tried to fix it.
the fact that the original version was overglorified was outlined and the bleeding of subscribers was outlined. So like any company would do when trying to improve their bottom line they made a decision and ran with it.
So after god knows how long they stil are apologising. It does appear that something that many of us have done awhile back (forgivness for a mistake as they were mistakes not purposeful and willful attempts to screw up a game.... it was something they thought they were doing tom ake it better..) that a pocket of an old community can't forgive or forget and either move onto another game or whatever.
It IS over. Unless you want his real life blood or something its over.
I see a post in this thread threatening bodily harm. That's kinda wacked out in its own right. Its out of proportion again. It was just a game and its now an *old* game. What more is there left to do? NOthing.
/shrugs
Yes the game is old now, but nobody should just forgive and forget what SOE pulled. That would give a green ligh to every other dev company to do the same. Let's remember that this goes way beyond launching a game without everything that's supposed to be in it. This was a total changing of the whole core game in itself.
Someone should have sat SOE/LA down and made them understand the total consequences of their actions. In my own personal opinion, they should have just fixed what was broke and not rushed the jedi proffession.
If after that, they still felt the game was not were they wanted it to be, then they should have opened one new server with the NGE concept and logged all community feedback that would have been coming in.
If the new server and NGE would have gotten rave reviews, then make the total change., but to do it the way SOE did it, was right out bait and switch fraud.
The eula clearly sais online play may be subject to changes without notice at any time. Also you can not switch and bait that which you do not own as also the eula clearly states by agreeing to this eula you herby agree that you do not own this or any other virtual items within this game from soe and La. As for fixing the game i do not think pre-cu was fixable, it was just wayyy to buggy , everytime something pre-cu was fixed a new exploit reared its ugly head that needed to be fixed, i didnt understand that then but i do now (as i was angry too until i realized) that this was the only way to fix the trash heap that was swg, I am finding it even more enjoyable now than before, me and my son just resubbed and are having a blast on bria.
The EULA argument, in that it is a non-negotiated contract, on;y goes as far as a "reasonable person's standard." NO way weere the changes wrought by the NGE reasonable. Thus, that argument fails.
Even someone claiming to be a lawyer on these boards, who was supportive of SOE, admitted that the EULA is no protection if someone has intentionally misled customers. A mass of evidence ranging from dev chats to disclosures from former SOE employees supports the allegation that consumers were intentionally misled.
The EULA does not trump the criminal code. Anyone who thinks it does is in for a rude awakening.
Originally posted by ArcAngel3 Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by boognish75
Originally posted by musicmann
Originally posted by ummax
The guy apologised and its still not accepted. Well a bunch of people apologised and no one accepts it. They outline the fact that the game was pretty sucky to begin with and was failing before the CU and they tried to fix it. the fact that the original version was overglorified was outlined and the bleeding of subscribers was outlined. So like any company would do when trying to improve their bottom line they made a decision and ran with it. So after god knows how long they stil are apologising. It does appear that something that many of us have done awhile back (forgivness for a mistake as they were mistakes not purposeful and willful attempts to screw up a game.... it was something they thought they were doing tom ake it better..) that a pocket of an old community can't forgive or forget and either move onto another game or whatever. It IS over. Unless you want his real life blood or something its over. I see a post in this thread threatening bodily harm. That's kinda wacked out in its own right. Its out of proportion again. It was just a game and its now an *old* game. What more is there left to do? NOthing. /shrugs
Yes the game is old now, but nobody should just forgive and forget what SOE pulled. That would give a green ligh to every other dev company to do the same. Let's remember that this goes way beyond launching a game without everything that's supposed to be in it. This was a total changing of the whole core game in itself.
Someone should have sat SOE/LA down and made them understand the total consequences of their actions. In my own personal opinion, they should have just fixed what was broke and not rushed the jedi proffession. If after that, they still felt the game was not were they wanted it to be, then they should have opened one new server with the NGE concept and logged all community feedback that would have been coming in. If the new server and NGE would have gotten rave reviews, then make the total change., but to do it the way SOE did it, was right out bait and switch fraud. The eula clearly sais online play may be subject to changes without notice at any time. Also you can not switch and bait that which you do not own as also the eula clearly states by agreeing to this eula you herby agree that you do not own this or any other virtual items within this game from soe and La. As for fixing the game i do not think pre-cu was fixable, it was just wayyy to buggy , everytime something pre-cu was fixed a new exploit reared its ugly head that needed to be fixed, i didnt understand that then but i do now (as i was angry too until i realized) that this was the only way to fix the trash heap that was swg, I am finding it even more enjoyable now than before, me and my son just resubbed and are having a blast on bria. The EULA argument, in that it is a non-negotiated contract, on;y goes as far as a "reasonable person's standard." NO way weere the changes wrought by the NGE reasonable. Thus, that argument fails.
Even someone claiming to be a lawyer on these boards, who was supportive of SOE, admitted that the EULA is no protection if someone has intentionally misled customers. A mass of evidence ranging from dev chats to disclosures from former SOE employees supports the allegation that consumers were intentionally misled. The EULA does not trump the criminal code. Anyone who thinks it does is in for a rude awakening.
But if Smedley is God, and the EULA is His Holy Word, the Sons of Smedley will continue to smite thee with their scripture!!!
After all, it's all they got. Reason and justice sure ain't on their side...
I think it's intersesting that despite the fact that people left in droves due to the changes, he still doesn't get that the changes are why they left.
As to if they still have the code, well, given some of the unprofessional stunts these people pulled, destroying the original code is not beyond their levels of incompetence.
While I agree in manament decisions they are incompetent, they were leaders at that time as a software developer. I find it unbelievable that any large scale software company would ever destroy backups of an original code set.You wouldn't believe how much most companies keep. We RARELY ever tossed out anything and when the last company I worked for got bought out and beat down we purposefully destroyed probably a 1000gigs of developed and raw code that we knew would never see the light of day, but kept none the less.
They have it as well as all the NPC precu character scripts. I wish they would donate it. I know they never will, but a certain production team would love it.
This is the same guy who was a part of Raph Koster's team that created UO and classic SWG. It's funny some of you people are saying how stupid he is - when he was one of the people that created the games you all love so much.
The truth is, and you would know this if you read his two posts, that it was a corporate directive to "change the game." He wanted to add the option to fight in FPS style, but thought it was a big mistake to remove the skill based system and classes.
So get it right before you go off half cocked. He was an employee who worked on a huge IP (Star Wars) for a huge faceless corporation. You act like he had any real choice.
He told the corporate people something like, "if you remove the skill system and classes you will loose the rest of our subscribers."
My favorite subject has always been history. But I've never been into "re-written" history.
I miss the good ol' days when nerds were actually intelligent.
This is the same guy who was a part of Raph Koster's team that created UO and classic SWG. It's funny some of you people are saying how stupid he is - when he was one of the people that created the games you all love so much. The truth is, and you would know this if you read his two posts, that it was a corporate directive to "change the game." He wanted to add the option to fight in FPS style, but thought it was a big mistake to remove the skill based system and classes. So get it right before you go off half cocked. He was an employee who worked on a huge IP (Star Wars) for a huge faceless corporation. You act like he had any real choice. He told the corporate people something like, "if you remove the skill system and classes you will loose the rest of our subscribers." My favorite subject has always been history. But I've never been into "re-written" history.
His initial post was basically him saying "eat a dick" and 'go fuck yourself' to anyone who was upset over the NGE. He also claimed that the only bad part of the NGE was that the marketing folks dropped the ball and that nothing he did was bad. Really, being part of the team that made the original UO and/or the original SWG isn't carte blanc to be an unmitigated arrogant asshole. Yay, he was against some of the changes his team implemented. give the asshole a cookie...
He was told to make the game more accessible and more appealing. What he, and his team, came up with was the NGE. Two and a half years later, the NGE is still not a good, or even a base level appealing, game. He still thinks the NGE made the game better and more fun. That takes an exceptional level of delusion.
Originally posted by Nikoz78 This is the same guy who was a part of Raph Koster's team that created UO and classic SWG. It's funny some of you people are saying how stupid he is - when he was one of the people that created the games you all love so much. The truth is, and you would know this if you read his two posts, that it was a corporate directive to "change the game." He wanted to add the option to fight in FPS style, but thought it was a big mistake to remove the skill based system and classes. So get it right before you go off half cocked. He was an employee who worked on a huge IP (Star Wars) for a huge faceless corporation. You act like he had any real choice. He told the corporate people something like, "if you remove the skill system and classes you will loose the rest of our subscribers." My favorite subject has always been history. But I've never been into "re-written" history.
read his initial post, not his "re-writing" of his own history.
No one is saying he isn't a smart guy; just that, from his original post, he isn't a particularly good guy.
I completely understand who and what he worked for and the dark choices he felt he needed to make. I would be completely sympathetic had he not told us all to eat a male member.
He also refuses to understand that the REASON the game never did well was mismanagement and not fixing what was wrong over years, and the CU, which he also obviously approved of (which led to the 10K subs a week loss of which he spoke). As Lead Designer, HE was responsible for that, along with Smedley and others. THEIR failure was COMPOUNDED by the very things they clamed would fix them.
That failed epically. He still resfuses to admit any of this, and tells us to go eat a male member. OM NOM NOM. My what a charming fellow you have chosen to defend.
With all that in consideration, I find it difficult to sympathize with his plight.
This is the same guy who was a part of Raph Koster's team that created UO and classic SWG. It's funny some of you people are saying how stupid he is - when he was one of the people that created the games you all love so much. The truth is, and you would know this if you read his two posts, that it was a corporate directive to "change the game." He wanted to add the option to fight in FPS style, but thought it was a big mistake to remove the skill based system and classes. So get it right before you go off half cocked. He was an employee who worked on a huge IP (Star Wars) for a huge faceless corporation. You act like he had any real choice. He told the corporate people something like, "if you remove the skill system and classes you will loose the rest of our subscribers." My favorite subject has always been history. But I've never been into "re-written" history.
Not exactly. It's not like Smed was standing behind him with a gun to his head forcing him to ruin SWG.
He says in his post that the NGE combat system is perfect and anybody who has played it knows it's not.
His initial post was basically him saying "eat a dick" and 'go fuck yourself' to anyone who was upset over the NGE. He also claimed that the only bad part of the NGE was that the marketing folks dropped the ball and that nothing he did was bad. Really, being part of the team that made the original UO and/or the original SWG isn't carte blanc to be an unmitigated arrogant asshole. Yay, he was against some of the changes his team implemented. give the asshole a cookie...
Exactly, and this is why the asshole should really think twice about ever showing his face at any type of public gaming event. You don't tell folks to go eat cock and expect to be able to walk in public without seriouse reprecussions.
I sifted throug the thread and saw something fly by about me working for sony. Its kinda funny but anyone who is contrary to the common line of thinking must work for sony or be a "spy" or something. I also read all versions of his blog. The guy has a foul mouth but asside from that there is an apology in there. I play video games Im used to foul mouths on grown adults by now if i wasn't I probably would have stopped playing them long ago.
In any event feel free to accuse or state that people who post here work for sony. Its interesting to watch but I would think that sony cant be bothered with this board or much else that is this mess
carry on with the rants in the vets forum .. no I dont work for sony my username on the sony forums is ultrabluebottle (easy enough to find). sony employees have red names my is not red but purple and dated 2003 the year the game was released. Meh whatever
*grins at the "you work for sony" remarks*
Yes I think for myself. NO i dont hold with a lot of what people say because I dont necessarily agree with it all. I long ago drew my own conclusions and it was that sony made a mistake. They have to my satisfaction corrected it and as a result I started playing their stupid games again. .. /shrugs
In case you missed the original. I can post screenshots of the same later.
" In Which I try to speak honestly about history 06.12.08 | 32 Comments
After continual thought, I still think this is a worthwhile discussion. I am cleaning out some of the assiness so we can maybe have a legitimate talk.
If I have ever created something that you didnt like or that brought you sadness, I apologize.
That is never the goal of a game developer.
However.
Let us set the record straight.
Let us set the history of the Star Wars Galaxies NGE into something that makes a little more sense to those from the outside.
First, some ground rules.
I am a game designer. I make video games. I manage teams, develop features, and turn the creative insanity that is game development into demonstrable and sellable products.
A lot of this manifests itself in the form of direct implementation. Scripting, writing, hands on content development.
I do not sit in a room and give orders. Generally, nobody Ive worked with ever did this.
We provided a means to create something to make money.
As professional developers, it is our job to execute on these types of creative endeavors within the context of limited finances, linear time, and sometimes explicit creative direction.
Sometimes this context is direction from Raph Koster. Sometimes it is to meet a marketing need, other times it is one of business decisions.
At times, I describe it as,
If someone asks for pink fluffy bunnies, we give then bunnies done to the best of our abilities. You might hate bunnies, but you make the best bunnies you can possibly make. That is your job
That is what we do. All of this is tempered with reality. Sometimes things take longer than wed like. Sometimes things end up more or less fun than we intended.
This is the job of a designer.
This is what I did on UO, Galaxies, JTL and every other game I worked and am working on.
So we were given the directive to make Galaxies better.
Not just make Galaxies better, but make it succesful. Not the 200k subs it had, but really succesful. The idea was that we had the most valuable IP in the entire world, and we fucked it up to the point of having 200k subs.
And yes, all 200k of you were important, but 200k means nothing in the scheme of things. I worked on Galaxies for around 5 and a half years. Thats a long time.
I wrote the combat system, mission system, spawning system. I wrote the combat model for JTL, implemented all of the development tools and ship interior systems and more.
Hell, I implemented the original Jedi System in 2 weeks after we launched. Not because it was how we wanted it, but because we had 2 weeks to do it.
I have the understanding of where we went wrong and how. I see the misteps and how the experience was misaligned with what most people wanted from a Star Wars game.
So, when the NGE push came along, we were asked to reimagine the game.
Not just small changes, but rebuild it.
And it was needed. When we were asked, we were bleeding subscribers.
If I remember correctly, somewhere around 10k a month. LOSING 10,000 subs a month. Note - I think our subs were closer to 160-180 than 200k. It was a bad financial situation no matter how you look at it.
It was not idyllic. You can remember it as an amazing game, but it wasnt.
Hell, all of you who recall the grand ole days of launch seem to conveniently forget that everyone quit shortly afterwards.
Its similiar to the UO rose colored glasses. Everyone remembers the positives, but nobody remembers how unpalatable UO was before Trammel. Nobody acknowledges that after Renaissance, UOs numbers rose from 110k to 220k.
But I digress.
WOW was out. SWG was niche and clunky. Or so it seemed. Theres a question of how close we got to the product, how our perspective changed as competitors launched. We were told to imagine something new and unique. To push it to the next level.
Originally, it was specced as a tutorial. A tutorial paired with a new marketing push, new and grandiose relaunch that would recapture the magic that we missed when we first released.
But a tutorial wasnt enough. We scrambled to come up with something more impressive.
We tested out a new combat system on a whim. I did a quick prototype and we discussed it internally.
The difference was the control scheme, not the rules. You clicked, You shot.
When we demonstrated it, the first comment was Wooooah .
And the producer left the room.
He came back shortly and was torn. He knew that we had to make the change. It was THAT much better. At least, that much potentially better.
We did a side by side comparison. We tried to play the old system. We couldnt.
However, we made a mistake. A BIG mistake.
Somewhere during the discussions it was strongly recommended that we streamline our characters.
People wanted something simpler, more direct, more accessible.
We told them. If you do this, you will lose all of our subscribers. It is that significant.
The response was that we would gain more due to the marketing push and relaunch.
So, we pushed forward.
If I remember the dates correctly, we did our NGE conversion in 2-3 months of solid crunch. It was some of the heaviest crunch Ive ever done.
We had an immovable date, and an insane set of features.
We were working in parallel, maintaining old code on the off chance that we would pull the plug on the implementation.
Note - We didnt notify anyone about the change until 2 weeks before launch because until 2 weeks before launch we hadnt made a decision. You basically found out when we found out. We launched, the marketing push failed, and we lost subscribers.
It was a misread at an organizational level. Design, Marketing, Production, community. You name it.
We made huge mistakes. We got too close to the changes. Design took something and made it bigger than it shouldve been.
We got swept up in the wave of changes and ran with it. And we fucked it up. All of us.
Note - To those who think I might be pointing fingers. I say it out loud, Italicized and Bold.
I fucked it up.
Not all of it, but I made mistakes.
Some big ones, Some small ones,
Some that Im still torn about to this day.
That is how things work. We make mistakes. We are not infallible.
We take these lessons and try not to fuck up again.
That is the nature of design.
Did the buck stop with design? Did the buck stop with Me?
No.
When I say it was an organizational failure, I mean it. Design made mistakes, Marketing made mistakes, Management made mistakes, Production made mistakes.
Did I alone give the go/no-go?
No.
Did design alone give the go/no-go?
No
Did an organization, made up of over 200 people give the go/no-go?
Yes.
Does that obviate us of blame?
Nope.
It was still a huge fuckup.
Epoch grade fuckup.
I think it lost a lot of the Raphy goodness that makes MMOs work, and that was a profound loss.
That was a huge mistake.
But I think the control scheme changes were dead on.
Does that matter? Not really. The point, the fuckup, the mistake that we made, was answering an unasked question.
Can you change an MMO drastically after it launches?
Categorically, NO.
If we were to do it again, and wanted to make those types of changes, you have to make a new game.
Relaunch with a new title.
Or shut down Galaxies and relaunch for real.
You cannot change it at runtime.
A lot of you were upset. A lot of you still seem to be upset. Im sorry if you feel betrayed, or that we ruined something you liked.
But Im proud of the work I and the rest of the team did. Im proud of the choices we made, the direction we took. ALL of SWG.
JTL, NGE, Launch, Jedi Fuckups. You name it.
We made mistakes. We made a LOT of mistakes. We crunched, we argued, we fired people, we hired people.
But we fucking launched a goddamned game. We launched a SECOND succesful MMO (post-uo). We made a fucking amazing space game using the same fucking game engine, integrated action combat, interior spaceships and in 9 MOTHERFUCKING MONTHS, all while running a succesful, cash positive product.
NGE was done in right around 2 months by a team of people.
I am proud of the work that we did, even if I am torn about the end product.
So those who think its about blame or credit or who ruined what or how great it used to be when kids didnt swear so much
Take a deep breath and move on. Times change. Games dont last forever.
Except UO. Its still running. And I bet people are still pissed about some fucked up code I wrote in 1997.
That, I am genuinely sorry for.
32 Comments
* On 06.12.08 Bob_Blawblaw wrote these pithy words:
THE FUCKUP WAS NOT THE CHANGES.
Galaxies NGE made it more playable. I think it lost a lot of the Raphy goodness that makes MMOs work, and that was a profound loss.
But the general idea was sound.
Gonna go ahead and (mostly) disagree there Pall. It was unplayable. Did you actually play it? It was a broken unplayable mess. Did you even bother testing it in a real-world internet scenario? A good designer designs within technical limitations. Yes its good to push boundaries of course, but sometimes its wise to keep your feet planted on solid ground and know what actually WILL work.
And as for the subscription bleed out finally stopping of course it slowed down. Cut someone (whos anemic) a little, and they bleed for a long time blow a hole in them with a shotgun, and theyll bleed out alot faster, at that point, halelujah, theyll stop bleeding (of course, like SWG, theyd be dead). * On 06.12.08 Tuebit wrote these pithy words:
WOW! (The exclamation, not the game). Many years on, I still wonder at the gaff that was NGE, and I tidbits like this very interesting (thanks!)
Let me also say that it was a great game. Sure it had its problems, but there were many great elements that havent been seen since.
A few question:
#1 Was there a rationale given for not tweaking and fixing? Evolution rather than revolution?
#2 Have you heard since whether it has remained net positive? If one believes what one hears the game is barely played today. * On 06.12.08 Vargen wrote these pithy words:
For what its worth as J random player, I think the basic idea behind the NGE was a good one. I really liked the new control scheme. I didnt like the way the skill system gave way to classes, but that wasnt so bad in the abstract. It was the conversion process that drove me away.
If the conversion had gone smoother I probably would have stuck with it. As it was I went from skill-capped with a jack-of-all-trades character to level 30-something too high for the initial quests, but too far away from Mustafar. Even so I would have ground out the XP in space, but since I was already Ace I wasnt actually *getting* XP up there.
Jump to Lightspeed is hands down my favorite online experience. Thank you for what you did to provide me with so much fun. Of all the virtual homes Ive left behind over the years, I think my YT-1300 is the one I miss the most. * On 06.12.08 Fishermage wrote these pithy words:
Seems like you missed why things were not going well. perhaps the CU did not address the problems, and the game was never the success it should have been because of the mismanagement of assets, the lack of content, the broken professions and quests, and all the things people actually SAID.
Maybe thing would have turned around if you had actually fixed what was broken instead of trying to re-invent the wheel. I know hindsight is 20-20, but thats what makes the most sense to me. * On 06.12.08 Apprentice to Darth Holden wrote these pithy words:
I realize youre probably still under NDAs and other oppresive fascist shit, but answer me this:
What was the NGE really about? Was it about the Niemoidian slime of Lucas Arts being pissed that their IP was getting its ass kicked by Blizzard? Was it about John Smedley being pwned by the first MMO effort of Blizzard? Was it about pride? Was it about money?
Because it would have been far better to just bleed 10k subs a month than to instantly lose 200k, imagining that some of WoWs playebase would flock to a barely out of alpha bastard copy of WoW with a Star Wars skin, which apparently is what Lucas Arts focus groups indicated would happen.
These idiots were told, five years ago this month, that SWG was not ready for launch by beta testers who wanted it to succeed every bit as much as anyone on the SOE payroll.
They launched it anyway, and you devs spent most of your time playing catchup trying to finish a game which is obviously in many respects still unfinished five years later, even after two major revisions.
BTW theyve finally figured out what to do with the battlefields, it seems. Put a POI and some factional NPCS in the middle of it and send people on quests to it.
Assuming they dont rubberband to death on the way there, or course. * On 06.12.08 Apprentice to Darth Holden wrote these pithy words:
Oh and so you know, when the NGE did what it did, I cancelled two accounts.
And have not been back as a paying customer. Of SOE or Lucas Arts. * On 06.12.08 Matt wrote these pithy words:
This is beating a dead horse. A dead horse that gobbled time and in-game resources. A dead horse that was part of a much larger dead Trojan horse.
The casual gamer knew not what they were getting into when building towards something that was ultimately supposed to be unique - i.e. Jedi.
The casual gamer knew not that what made the game unique - the sandbox aspect - was no longer marketable.
The casual gamer knew not the changes in store right after a major content push for a new expansion (and probably wouldnt have bought said new expansion if they had known about the new system, the complete rebuild, the completely (more or less) new game.)
All of the above is beating a dead horse, as is this post. And this comment.
If you want to get this off of your chest and feel like the ends justify the means, more power to you. More subscribers? Awesome. Its just too bad that in the short time after the NGE hit, the economy was destroyed once again, and most of the subs that came in were for credit farmers and spam bots. Nobody would know the true number of how many spam bots and credit farmers actually inhabit a server at any given time since there is no real way to know how many subs are active on a server, nor where any of this data would be (if it even is) published.
People will play it because it is a glorified chatroom in which they can interact with other people and do more than just look at text fly by on a screen.
And we will continue to play it because it continues to give what any game should give - an escape from reality.
But then again, beating a dead horse is boring. Its been long enough - and thankfully, anybody who still remembers is either not even subbed anymore or has moved on.
As have I. * On 06.13.08 kefkah wrote these pithy words:
So when you say that you kept the existing code does that mean that Smeds explanation that they dont have the old code is a fabrication? NGE being better or not, many of us always believed that losing the code or doing away with it never made any sense. * On 06.13.08 Good Apollo, Dear God The Internet It Burns IV: Srsly, Dude « Broken Toys wrote these pithy words:
[ ] Apollo, Dear God The Internet It Burns IV: Srsly, Dude (Edit: it appears that bells are unringing, or at least the subject of this note took to heart some of the no doubt polite and reasoned [ ] * On 06.13.08 Vahl wrote these pithy words:
the NGE was bad. Just bad. The implementation of the NGE was beyond bad.
With the NGE I lost EVERYTHING I had worked hard to obtain and play. The two professions I adored the most were gone, utterly gone . Wiped off the face of the game playing world with out so much as an apology or a by your leave or compensation. Gone.
Combat was sped up to the point of ridiculousness, the UI looked like a Japanese cartoon dogs dinner nightmare and game play was borked beyond reason.
The NGE destroyed so many things and I, along with so many other people left.
The worst thing was the smug comments by certain members of the DEV team / management about the protest of people quitting was just for show.
WELL over a year after the NGE fiasco I came back mostly because My husband missed having me in game andthe game we currently have while still missing so much of what was there pre nge is better and more playable.
I do not yearn for pre CU, nor do I miss the Cu times either but I miss diversity and I miss CHOICE which none of the developers and the people who make the decisions seem to understand. With the implementation of the NGE you took away the players ability to choose. Now we have a game that is better than the NGE, maybe even better than before the NGE but we have a community so divided by what happened these wounds will never heal and that sits squarely on the people who implemented this disaster.
I will forever loath the people who created the NGE. The stupidity and selfish, sightless greed that created the mess we, as players, had to deal with serves as a message to all other mmos out there.
I cannot even begin to list the things that made / make me as a paying customer angry. I loath you all for what you did to us, the people who paid good money to play a good game.
Your attitude of take it or leave was a slap in the face.You ( collectively) insulted the intelligence of players and you all wonder why everyone was so angry.
It was a clusterfuck of huge proportions and it will never be forgotten. * On 06.13.08 Stefson wrote these pithy words:
Interesting article, and actually very fun to read.
And yes, all 200k of you were important, but 200k means nothing in the scheme of things.
Strange you say this, 200k means nothing? Maybe in the post WOW world 200k seems little, but if done right 200k can get you a long way (EVE?). I think you mean 200k meant nothing for SOE. They went Jerry Maguire on everyone Show me the money!!
If someone asks for pink fluffy bunnies, we give then bunnies done to the best of our abilities. You might hate bunnies, but you make the best bunnies you can possibly make. That is your job
Speaks for itself. So you (and others) knew the game was going to be *** with all these changes. Ok, I hear you when you say your proud of what you did in so little a time, but still, most people wont see it that way
I am proud of the work that we did, even if I am torn about the end product. Take a deep breath and move on. Times change. Games dont last forever.
Cool of you to admit that.
I recently tried SWG again, you can see at my blog. I think the current team is doing a nice job at keeping SWG alive if I can say it that way. I definately miss the old days, but like you said, those will live on in my memories
WOW was out. SWG was niche and clunky. Or so it seemed.
Funny how you removed everything that made SWG unique and special with the NGE, but kept all the clunky aspects, and even made the whole UI more clunky than before. Its also funny how the CU slowed down the game horribly, and told us its perfect this way, half a year later you told us one of the reason for the NGE is that a star wars game has to be faster.
People left the game 2005 in droves mostly because of the CU, and how it did NOT adress the problems that existed for many people. And they left because of the bugs even before that.
You can say your sources, your surveys and focus groups, said something else. But we played and spoke with the people who left. We played the game. * On 06.13.08 Flight wrote these pithy words:
Quote :
I think it lost a lot of the Raphy goodness that makes MMOs work,
It amazes me how much of the industry believes Kosters bullshit. He writes about fun, yet he doesnt know how to deliver it. He is the industries pseudo-intellectual professor, who teaches in a college because he has no idea how to make it work in the real world.
Koster produces social experiments, not games. They arent what people are looking for in games
SWG had a lot of positive stuff. I had 3 accounts. It was missing meaningful loot. With no meaningful loot and no meaningful dungeons all that was left was Raphs standard social experiment, tagged on to a terrific class and combat system.
And a BIG part of the failure was shipping with a totally broken armor system. In a game which relied on player made armor and weapons, the armor system was broken. * On 06.13.08 djmtott wrote these pithy words:
I understand the business aspect behind it all. If 200k subs wasnt good enough then you had to do something.
I just think your efforts wouldve been better focused on fixing all of the bugs and adding some good features and content, and then using that marketing blitz (which I dont remember seeing anything) to pull more people in.
Instead, the game was changed, alienated 50+% of the playerbase, and wasnt attractive to new players.
I think the biggest thing you didnt take into account was that if you chase off all of the players then no one is going to touch your game. When the rats are trying to flee the sinking ship youre not going to have a new group of rats trying to climb onboard. * On 06.13.08 Noordvike wrote these pithy words:
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While your statements are actually nearing the feeling of what I as a customer in the game you worked on, needed to hear on that infamous Nov 15th; I think that there are so many people that invested so much of their time and lives into that game, only to be betrayed and utterly stripped of their time, social, and MONETARY investment, that no words at this point could ever neutralize the anger and resentment some people have. Especially with how we as a loyal paying customer were treated post NGE release.
Thank you for taking the time to state your view and explain things in the way you saw them.
I for one still harbor a deep resentment towards SWG management (that includes you I think) for destroying many of the in-game friendships that I formed or was forming. For actually allowing the most creative character skill creation system to be compromised for a dumbed-down painfully restrictive character skill set and removing some of the funnest and most difficult professions to play. What the hell were you people thinking by allowing Jedi to be a starting profession and so drastically flushing the time and money investment of you most loyal customers ? That was the kicker there. That made enough multi-account holding loyal customers push the cancel button and bad-mouth SWG into having the absolute worse reputation in the MMO world, as it exists today.
I am not angry that a game was changed. Its just a game in that sense and I have played and shelved enough games to not be too bothered by that.
I am angry (still) that my investment was compromised by a bunch of short-sighted, greedy, lazy, weak-minded SWG management members. You as a primary contributor to the design of the game system and team lead bear a significant responsibility for the decisions that were taken and the resulting massive loss of player base.
You rewrote and launched a MMO in 2-3 months. You released it forcefully to a paying customer base of 200K people replacing the investment of 2+ years with your idea of an acceptable game system. Everyone makes mistakes, its just that it is unbelievable that a team staff of 200 could not have the vision or understanding to realize they were certainly going to alienate their existing customer base by completely changing the product without consulting their customers first. The quality of your released product (the NGE) was far-and-away the lowest quality of video game I have ever paid for and for me personally, the most disappointing in the 24 years I have been playing video games. Yup, Im still pissed about it and so are the tens of thousands of others who trusted their investment in the hands of the likes of you and the rest of the team who were working on SWG at the time.
You and the rest of the management team at SWG could not have fucked it up any more than you did. It was an epic disaster I expect to be used as an example and talked about for many years to come. * On 06.13.08 ValkoSipuliSuola wrote these pithy words:
Lets talk expectation management for a minute.
Im sure the suits all thought that if you took one of the most valuable IPs around and partnered it with the folks who made EverQuest (keep in mind this was pre-WoW, and EQ was the shit), you couldnt lose. You would have millions of subs and everyone involved would be buried under piles of cash.
With that expectation, a Star Wars MMO with 200k subs was considered a complete failure. Something had to be done, and it had to be done quickly. Everyone keeps talking about fixing bugs and adding content. While that may have slowed the cancellation rate, it wasnt enough. It would be like putting a new muffler on your Celica. Sure, it would make it better, but the NGE was a freakin Ferrari! The execs were willing to sacrifice the 200k players they had, thinking they could bring in a million new ones. A risky move, but once again, in their eyes they didnt have much to lose.
What they didnt count on was how much damage those disaffected players could do. Their existing player base was so angry (and rightfully so) that they began screaming and yelling to anyone who would listen. The marketing and community folks were simply unable to counter all of the negative press coming from those players, but not from a lack of trying. They did the best they could, but they were unprepared for the ferocity of that backlash.
Did the NGE make it a better game? Yeah. Did it make it more accessible to the masses? Definitely. Had the NGE been the game they shipped at launch, would they have had their millions of subs? I dont know. Well never know. * On 06.13.08 Athela wrote these pithy words:
Did anyone at any time think they should just change the combat system (which everyone from the knuckledragger crowd whined about since the beginning) and leave the rest of the game alone? The Raphiness was Raph at his best. Well never see anything like it again, even from him. The profession losses were the most idiodic thingwhose idea was that?
I also noted the line about the old code running alongside the new, which means a mystery solved and the pristine version of Galaxies could be brought back. Thanks for that, at least.
Athela * On 06.13.08 djmtott wrote these pithy words:
Atone for your sins and help out the SWGemu effort!!! * On 06.13.08 Mark wrote these pithy words:
Indeed to fail is human, to act immorally is also a human fraility.
What I wonder is if you realize that the entire basis for the decision was based on an immoral act?
You readily admit that you were willing to slap those that had been feeding you in the gut. You recognized it would be fatel to many even. Yet for the sake of sating your greed (and the companies), you made the decision to step on those that had been faithfully giving you that living for 5 years anyways. That act is not a good act.
Next time deal honestly with and in the best interest of your customers (given their wants not yours) and it will turn out better. Its that simple. * On 06.13.08 taodon wrote these pithy words:
Milk. That one simple word is why I was frustrated with the original game. The Bio-Engineer required Milk in 90% of its recipes for the 2nd tier, and it hadnt been placed in the game (or if it was, it wasnt easily accessible.) All we wanted was Milk, all we asked for was Milk. Instead - we got the NGE - and the Bio-Engineer was removed the game. Milk is in the game now though.
I think that sums up SWG for me the most - in the real word we call it cutting off your nose to spite your face. Unfortunately, you took the eyes, mouth, and ears too. So, saying NGE was the problem - well - thats a little disingenuous, isnt it? * On 06.13.08 Froztwolf wrote these pithy words:
Thank you for this article. It is excellent to get a look behind the scenes in the famous event in MMO history.
With the information and expectations you had it seems like a reasonable decision to rebuild the game. I probably would have agreed with that at the time.
There are two things in your account that struck me. First was that you had only 2-3 months to totally revamp the game. I am a game designer for an MMO myself and if my department were asked to do this I would flat our refuse, at the risk of being terminated. This is nowhere near enough time to overhaul all the major game systems and retain any degree of quality.
The second thing is how nonchalantly you mention that you had 2-3 months. Is this par for the course? If s then its so much less surprising why most SOE MMOs suffer from such a lack of polish.
I dont mean to subtract from your efforts and I dont mean to tell you how to do your job. Performing this task in any way or form in this time is commendable. Asking people to do so is not. * On 06.13.08 Woody wrote these pithy words:
You share the same affliction as Freeman, you think your idea of what is fun is better than the people who are actually paying believe.
Even after seeing what a complete mess you made, you still think you were right which shows you shouldnt be working in this industry. You just dont have the smarts to realize it. * On 06.13.08 mild7 wrote these pithy words:
Interesting info and insight.
I have a question I hope you can answer. In the original jedi system. Was the key mastering a random, pre-defined proffession? Was it a combination of pre-defined proffessions? Or was there a die roll after each mastery with better odds after each mastery?
I had to master 31 of the 32 professions to unlock my slot, and Id like to know.
BTW, I still play and dont look back with rose glasses. * On 06.13.08 Some guy wrote these pithy words:
Thank you for this honest and insightful look into SWG. * On 06.13.08 EvilJohn wrote these pithy words:
Doomed, were doooomed! (Sorry figured you needed a little Hal channeling for this) * On 06.13.08 Tuebit wrote these pithy words:
Dan Rubenfield wrote: And it was needed. When we were asked, we were bleeding subscribers.
When was the when we were asked? If the crunch was 2-3 months. I assume there was some time prior to the crunch for the referenced prototyping, thinking and discussion. NGE launched in November so that makes the timing Julyish a few months after the CU release? The Wikipedia entry for SWG claims that subscriptions began to grow again, a short while after CU.
I think the big lesson (can it be called a lesson is learning that salt is, um, salty, a lesson?) is that ZOMG!!11 Epic Fun cannot be added to a game in a few months with patch. * On 06.13.08 John wrote these pithy words:
Once again we hear the bleeding subscribers mantra. Did any of the 200 plus professionals up there even once stop to think, hey maybe, just maybe if we actually FIX what is here instead of constantly changing things, we would stop bleeding subs? I imagine most subs just got tired of things not getting fixed. No instead you all decided to keep changing the horse midstream.
The typical to worried about what you dont have instead of the subs you actually did have and try to build on that. See EVE for an excellent example of this. You people got e-peen envy and just couldnt see the trees for the forest. I get the idea you people figured most of your current players were just dumb kids? I mean its only reasonable considering how you treated the subs. I bet you were surprised to find there were many adult players.
What an arrogant bunch of pricks you all are. You can be proud all you like for changing my game. But know this, Im just as proud to never give SOE or LA any of my money again. I will proudly tell anyone who will listen about the sneaky and untrustworthy SOE and LA business practices. So while you can be proud of what was accomplished in a short period of time, you can take your proud at changing my characters and not giving me nothing in return and shove it up your collective asses. After all in essence all I got was a FUCK YOU from SOE and LA anyway, I just like to return the favor.
You bunch of arrogant bastards still dont get it do you. * On 06.13.08 Genvieve Mohito wrote these pithy words:
And yes, all 200k of you were important, but 200k means nothing in the scheme of things.
Thank you for looking at the world of MMOs like a comunist general. If we kill 200k people, then 1 million people will have a better life.
All life is important and I think SOE should have had someone on staff who realized that each and every account was valuable to them. Its no longer about the game experience anymore, this discussion is about people not money. Ive tried to find another word to use that doesnt sound so hostile, but HATE is the only one that truely expresses my feelings towards SOE.
SOE has time and again set a precident that they dont care about the actual subscribers, just subscription numbers.
Vanguard is another prime example of putting something out there that is beyond broken and offering no appologies.
I will never, let me make this perfectly clear, NEVER play any game put out by SOE ever again. Regardless of its content, the company shows a complete disregard for the people who keep them in their fancy houses. * On 06.13.08 What? (by Jeff Freeman) wrote these pithy words:
Throughout your post you apologize for making something we didnt like.
Actions, however, speak louder than words. But you know, there is a way for you to un-do some of the damage you caused. Im assuming you know of the Emulator project at http://www.swgemu.com and http://www.swganh.com. How about helping them? Ya sure, I know. Youre busy.
Go to http://www.swgemu.com. They have extensive forums and progress updates. Currently they are having issues with heightmaps. Maybe you could give them some tips? Something?
Believe me, I get it. You are out to make money. You want to be on the latest MMO development teams creating the newest mega-success.
You could redeem yourself in the eyes of the community if you helped the Emulator, in ANY way, big or small.
Its your choice. * On 06.13.08 Wulfman wrote these pithy words:
Well, for sure the original game design was already flawed and rushed to live before it was ready. There should have been more real Star wars options and one should have been able to enlist as an Imperial. However, the CU fixed most of it and the game was finally on its way up (from the content and balance point of view).
Who ever though that what was pushed out as the original NGE was a good idea has no idea on who a good game looks like and has never sen any Star Wars movie. When I first saw it I was horrified by the crap that was pushed on people who played a game that was after many years finally working for the most part.
Now, a few years later the current dev team has fixed some of the major mistakes that were made and finally have the game at a playable and interesting levle, however, the screw up of the original NGE set the game back about a year and I think it would be much more competitive in todays market without the NGE set back.
It is my opinion that one has a choice on what to do in their professional live. If you saw already at the time that it was rushed and that it would upset the players that were there it was your duty to speak up (than and there). Doing it now is too late. To many things on this earth happen and people say that they were just doing their job (or following orders). If you do not agree than say it out loud. * On 06.13.08 Curate wrote these pithy words:
Genvieve: ..this discussion is about people not money.
In the world of MMOs, people = money. There were not enough people to make SWG as profitable as expected, and given how drastic the NGE was Im guessing SWG wasnt profitable at all. People keep waving the OMG WoW GREED ENVY flag. From the original post here: Hell, all of you who recall the grand ole days of launch seem to conveniently forget that everyone quit shortly afterwards. (To be fair, I couldnt forget that because I never knew that if SirBruce shrugs and keeps the subs at around 300K for 2 years, how are the rest of us supposed to know?)
The game was doing very, very poorly. Keep in mind that ambitious design + Star Wars IP + dream team design crew = expensive product. 200K may have been good for an MMO, but at the time this was the MMO.
People bailed. Now, I agree completely that those who chose to remain shouldve been treated much, much better, if for no other reason then because pissing off happy customers is bad for a company. Still, when youre talking about a business where coders, artists, and designers need to have projects and take home paychecks yeah, it is about money. "
This was the original post. Note the lack of comments. I captured it before the edits.
In which I start a flame war with the internet.
06.12.08 | Comment?
Caveat - This is not an argument. I will attempt to speak honestly about these elements, to give you perspective. For those of you who want to misconstrue it, or perceive it as some “ZOMG YOU ROONED SWG”, please proceed to the back of the room where you can quietly eat a d**k. OM NOM NOM.
For the rest, I look forward to a well versed and intelligent discourse on the nature of a creative business, and how to better approach difficult situations in the future.
begin article here. You d**k eaters quiet down. *om nom nom*
So, I just logged back in to discover that a bunch of you whackjobs have turned one of these threads into some misguided personal grievance with the SWG NGE.
So first.
If I have ever created something that you didn’t like or that brought you sadness, I apologize.
That is never the goal of a game developer.
However.
Let us set the record straight.
Let us set the history of the Star Wars Galaxies NGE into something that makes a little more sense to those from the outside.
First, some ground rules.
I am a game designer. I make video games. I manage teams, develop features, and turn the creative insanity that is game development into demonstrable and sellable products.
A lot of this manifests itself in the form of direct implementation. Scripting, writing, hands on content development.
I do not sit in a room and give orders. Generally, nobody I’ve worked with ever did this.
We provided a means to create something to make money.
As professional developers, it is our job to execute on these types of creative endeavors within the context of limited finances, linear time, and sometimes explicit creative direction.
Sometimes this context is direction from Raph Koster. Sometimes it is to meet a marketing need, other times it is one of business decisions.
At times, I describe it as, ‘If someone asks for pink fluffy bunnies, we give then bunnies done to the best of our abilities. If we don’t like those, we can still deliver the best bunnies based off of our understanding of the marketplace.”
That is what we do. All of this is tempered with reality. Sometimes people get sick. Sometimes things take longer than we’d like. Sometimes things end up more or less fun than we intended.
This is the job of a designer.
This is what I did on UO, Galaxies, JTL and every other game I worked and am working on.
So we were given the directive to make Galaxies better.
Not just make Galaxies better, but make it succesful. Not the 200k subs it had, but really succesful. The idea was that we had the most valuable IP in the entire world, and we f**ked it up to the point of having 200k subs.
And yes, all 200k of you were important, but 200k means nothing in the scheme of things.
I worked on Galaxies for around 5 and a half years. That’s a long time.
Before we launched, I wrote the combat system, mission system, spawning system.
I wrote the combat model for JTL, implemented Content development tools and ship interior systems and more.
Hell, I implemented the original Jedi System in 2 weeks after we launched. Not because it was how we wanted it, but because we had 2 weeks to do it.
I have the understanding of where we went wrong and how. I see the misteps and how the experience was misaligned with what most people wanted from a Star Wars game.
So, when the NGE push came along, we were asked to reimagine the game.
Not just small changes, but rebuild it.
And it was needed. When we were asked, we were bleeding subscribers.
If I remember correctly, somewhere around 10k a month. LOSING 10,000 subs a month.
It was not idyllic. You can remember it as an amazing game, but it wasn’t.
Hell, all of you who recall the grand ole days of launch seem to conveniently forget that everyone quit shortly afterwards.
It’s similiar to the UO rose colored glasses. Everyone remembers the positives, but nobody remembers how unpalatable UO was before Trammel. Nobody acknowledges that after Renaissance, UO’s numbers rose from 110k to 220k.
But I digress.
WOW was out. SWG was niche and clunky.
We were asked to imagine something new and unique. To push it to the next level. Originally, it was specced as a tutorial. A tutorial paired with a new marketing push, new and grandiose relaunch that would recapture the magic that we missed when we first released.
But a tutorial wasn’t enough. We scrambled to come up with something more impressive.
We tested out a new combat system on a whim. I did a quick prototype and we discussed it internally.
The difference was the control scheme, not the rules. You clicked, You shot.
When we demonstrated it, the first comment was “Wooooah….”
And the producer left the room.
He came back shortly and was torn. He knew that we had to make the change. It was THAT much better.
We did a side by side comparison. We tried to play the old system. We couldn’t.
However, we made a mistake.
Somewhere during the discussions it was strongly recommended that we streamline our characters.
People wanted something simpler, more direct, more accessible.
We told them. “If you do this, you will lose all 200k subscribers. It is that significant.”
It was explained that we would gain more due to the marketing push and relaunch.
So, we pushed forward.
If I remember the dates correctly, we did our NGE conversion in 2-3 months of solid crunch. It was some of the heaviest crunch I’ve ever done.
We had an immovable date, and an insane set of features.
We were working in parallel, maintaining old code on the off chance that we would pull the plug on the implementation.
We launched, the marketing push failed, and we lost subscribers.
It was a misread at an organizational level. Marketing, Production, community. You name it.
Epoch grade f**kup.
But.
The f**kup was NOT the changes.
Let me say it again, louder, for those who do not get it.
THE f**kUP WAS NOT THE CHANGES.
Galaxies NGE made it more playable. I think it lost a lot of the Raphy goodness that makes MMOs work, and that was a profound loss.
But the general idea was sound.
The control scheme was a good idea.
Losing the character skill system was not.
But, that’s not the point.
The point, the f**kup, the mistake that we made, was answering an unasked question.
“Can you change an MMO drastically after it launches?”
Categorically, NO.
If we were to do it again, and wanted to make those types of changes, you have to make a new game.
Relaunch with a new title.
Or shut down Galaxies and relaunch for real.
You cannot change it at runtime.
BUT!
And this is a HUGE but.
Right as I left SOE, post NGE..
Galaxies was subscriber positive.
A few thousand, but it was a far cry from the 10k per month we were losing.
A lot of you were upset. A lot of you still seem to be upset. I’m sorry if you feel betrayed, or that we ruined something you liked.
But I’m proud of the work I and the rest of the team did. I’m proud of the choices we made, the direction we took. ALL of SWG.
JTL, NGE, Launch, Jedi f**kups. You name it.
We made mistakes. We made a LOT of mistakes. We crunched, we argued, we fired people, we hired people.
But we f**king launched a godd**ned game. We launched a SECOND succesful MMO (post-uo). We made a f**king amazing space game using the same f**king game engine, integrated action combat, interior spaceships and in 9 MOTHERf**kING MONTHS, all while running a succesful, cash positive product.
NGE was done in 3-4 months by a team of people. I am proud of the work that we did, even if I am torn about the end product.
So those who think it’s about blame or credit or who ruined what or how great it used to be when kids didn’t swear so much…
Take a deep breath and move on. Times change. Games don’t last forever.
Except UO. It’s still running. And I bet people are still pissed about some f**ked up code I wrote in 1997.
That, I am genuinely sorry for.
And Finally, a telling Anecdote that I think came from Gordon Walton originally.
A cancellation email from UO came in. A diatribe, really.
It want on and on about how shitty the game was, how it was the worst piece of crap he’d ever played.
So, someone called him to find out some information.
Orignally posted by Dan Om Nom Nom Rubenfield I am a game designer. I make video games. I manage teams, develop features, and turn the creative insanity that is game development into demonstrable and sellable products.
Correction you were a game designer and a poor one at that. You are in the soon to be drumed out of the industry catagory. You may now take your place among the other lying losers, that can't buy a job sweeping floors in the industry; Like David Bowman, and Brad McQuaid.
After the Trammel flop in UO, the devs said and did exactly the same:
1: They claimed that the game was dying, and alterations HAD to be made (even though no charts have ever displayed this - UO never had a decline prior to Trammel)
2: They claimed that the original game could not be restored, the code didn't exist, so they couldn't do it even if they wanted to
Claiming that the original code doesn't exist is such bullshit, and an attempt to close the discussion before it even gets rolling, by killing all hope of a revert up-front.
Nobody acknowledges that after Renaissance, UO’s numbers rose from
110k to 220k
Which is bullshit. At the time of UO:R, UO had 180k subscribers. If he told the story right, it would go: "At the time of UO:R, the game had 180k subscribers, shortly after that UO's steep increase in subscription numbers topped off forever".
One might wonder if he didn't exaggerate his claim that SWG was at 180-200k when they did the NGE as well (charts show that it was over 300k). I don't think this guy has a healthy relationship with truth.
I'm not sure it matters if the Code is still around. I mean, if you can't access it what's the damn point? This game is DEAD DEAD DEAD!!!
It Died on Nov 15 2006 , what remains is an Undead Version of the game. Well , I am the Van Helsing of MMOs and I have my stake and hammer at the ready for a quick dispatch of this cursed monster.
lol
I have a copy of SWG's original code if SOE wants it, yes, that's right, I still have the CD copy of the launch version.
When I say it was an organizational failure, I mean it. Design made mistakes, Marketing made mistakes, Management made mistakes, Production made mistakes. Did I alone give the go/no-go? No. Did design alone give the go/no-go? No Did an organization, made up of over 200 people give the go/no-go?
Do you expect Marketing to tell Design what is a good game, what will make a success? Do you expect Management to do it?
When it comes to gameplay/game mechanics everyone listens to Design. It is that simple. It is their job.
Even going near blaming production, the lowest step on the ladder is just hilarious. You will get out of them exactly what you ask for. And if you put too big a crunch on them, you will get what you ask for in a poor shape.
Comments
read that blog and you can see where the nge came from. only a "man" with that kind of mindset could
"create" something as turd-like as the nge.
This man isn't sorry for anything. I notice my reply while a tad abrasive didn't use any words worse then what he uses in his original blog, has been deleted. While yes this is his blog and he can do what he wants, he certainly does not want to 'face the music' and hear what is really on peoples minds. Apparently he still has a problem with how his past customers feel by deleting selected responses.
This does not show me a person who is sorry. This shows me a man who is working with a current development company and who might be concerned his old SWG days will catch up to him.
Someone should have sat SOE/LA down and made them understand the total consequences of their actions. In my own personal opinion, they should have just fixed what was broke and not rushed the jedi proffession.
If after that, they still felt the game was not were they wanted it to be, then they should have opened one new server with the NGE concept and logged all community feedback that would have been coming in.
If the new server and NGE would have gotten rave reviews, then make the total change., but to do it the way SOE did it, was right out bait and switch fraud.
Forgiveness is a basic quality of civilzed society. Even the penal system has a policy of forgivness in that once you do your time its over and laws that make it so that the person is protected after he has "apologised" to the system by doing his time. Murderers are forgiven and given a chance. Its something you should learn to do especially when someone admits thatt he screwed up.
If you make a mistake at work do you get given another chance or raked over the coals for years on end and constantly given a hard time regardless of the fact you have been promoted, done a good job after the fact etc.
If you spill milk on the floor and I as your wife (a female) find you dont clean it up do i spend the next 5 years screaming at you for not noticing and making a mistake or do i point it out, clean it up say my piece and move on
Forgiveness is a basic positive human trait that is a good quality to have. Hate and anger on the other side are totally useless and serve no real purpose (except possibly to give you gas, ulcers and a headache).
Ummax - I'm wondering if you work for Sony.
SOE isn't sorry. If they were, they wouldn't have LIED TO US OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
If SOE was sorry, they would roll back the servers.
If SOE was sorry, they NEVER would have asked us to pay a subscription fee to beta test the CU and the NGE.
If SOE was sorry, they wouldn't have spindoctors everywhere working damage control. They wouldn't be complaining to media outlets simply reporting the story. They wouldn't be censoring their boards to stop people who have complaints that have merit.
I think SOE and their programming team is sorry they got caught.
I think SOE is sorry that they're losing money. But their solution is to blame the idiot peons who are quiting for not reveling in their genius programmers (like this guy.)
If you want my money, make a product I like. You get bonus points if you don't BLATANTLY AND KNOWINGLY lie to me in the process. Why is that so hard?
The old system was good. It needed tweeking, but all games do.
You could have just told us that: We WANT to do this, We NEED to fix that, etc. But instead, they told us that those things were already there, that bugs were just in our heads, etc.
SOE isn't sorry for anything. Heck - this guy in his original post didn't sound the slightest bit sorry for anything. And after all the lies, why should I believe the apology anyway - especially since they haven't done anything concrete to make it up to their customer base.
Since SOE supporters are now joining this thread saying what a nice apology was offered by Dan, here's the original version, complete with insults and compound words. This is the "apology" we were offered. This may explain the response much better than the twice edited version now on Dan's blog. I'm going to try to edit some of the things that MMORPG would rightly delete, but you'll still get the idea (edits will have a *):
"Caveat - This is not an argument. I will attempt to speak honestly about these elements, to give you perspective. For those of you who want to misconstrue it, or perceive it as some ?ZOMG YOU ROONED SWG?, please proceed to the back of the room where you can quietly eat a d*ck. OM NOM NOM.
For the rest, I look forward to a well versed and intelligent discourse on the nature of a creative business, and how to better approach difficult situations in the future.
begin article here. You d*ck eaters quiet down. *om nom nom*
So, I just logged back in to discover that a bunch of you whackjobs have turned one of these threads into some misguided personal grievance with the SWG NGE.
So first.
If I have ever created something that you didn?t like or that brought you sadness, I apologize.
That is never the goal of a game developer.
However.
Let us set the record straight.
Let us set the history of the Star Wars Galaxies NGE into something that makes a little more sense to those from the outside.
First, some ground rules.
I am a game designer. I make video games. I manage teams, develop features, and turn the creative insanity that is game development into demonstrable and sellable products.
A lot of this manifests itself in the form of direct implementation. Scripting, writing, hands on content development.
I do not sit in a room and give orders. Generally, nobody I?ve worked with ever did this.
We provided a means to create something to make money.
As professional developers, it is our job to execute on these types of creative endeavors within the context of limited finances, linear time, and sometimes explicit creative direction.
Sometimes this context is direction from Raph Koster. Sometimes it is to meet a marketing need, other times it is one of business decisions.
At times, I describe it as, ?If someone asks for pink fluffy bunnies, we give then bunnies done to the best of our abilities. If we don?t like those, we can still deliver the best bunnies based off of our understanding of the marketplace.?
That is what we do. All of this is tempered with reality. Sometimes people get sick. Sometimes things take longer than we?d like. Sometimes things end up more or less fun than we intended.
This is the job of a designer.
This is what I did on UO, Galaxies, JTL and every other game I worked and am working on.
So we were given the directive to make Galaxies better.
Not just make Galaxies better, but make it succesful. Not the 200k subs it had, but really succesful. The idea was that we had the most valuable IP in the entire world, and we f*cked it up to the point of having 200k subs.
And yes, all 200k of you were important, but 200k means nothing in the scheme of things.
I worked on Galaxies for around 5 and a half years. That?s a long time.
Before we launched, I wrote the combat system, mission system, spawning system.
I wrote the combat model for JTL, implemented Content development tools and ship interior systems and more.
Hell, I implemented the original Jedi System in 2 weeks after we launched. Not because it was how we wanted it, but because we had 2 weeks to do it.
I have the understanding of where we went wrong and how. I see the misteps and how the experience was misaligned with what most people wanted from a Star Wars game.
So, when the NGE push came along, we were asked to reimagine the game.
Not just small changes, but rebuild it.
And it was needed. When we were asked, we were bleeding subscribers.
If I remember correctly, somewhere around 10k a month. LOSING 10,000 subs a month.
It was not idyllic. You can remember it as an amazing game, but it wasn?t.
Hell, all of you who recall the grand ole days of launch seem to conveniently forget that everyone quit shortly afterwards.
It?s similiar to the UO rose colored glasses. Everyone remembers the positives, but nobody remembers how unpalatable UO was before Trammel. Nobody acknowledges that after Renaissance, UO?s numbers rose from 110k to 220k.
But I digress.
WOW was out. SWG was niche and clunky.
We were asked to imagine something new and unique. To push it to the next level. Originally, it was specced as a tutorial. A tutorial paired with a new marketing push, new and grandiose relaunch that would recapture the magic that we missed when we first released.
But a tutorial wasn?t enough. We scrambled to come up with something more impressive.
We tested out a new combat system on a whim. I did a quick prototype and we discussed it internally.
The difference was the control scheme, not the rules. You clicked, You shot.
When we demonstrated it, the first comment was ?Wooooah?.?
And the producer left the room.
He came back shortly and was torn. He knew that we had to make the change. It was THAT much better.
We did a side by side comparison. We tried to play the old system. We couldn?t.
However, we made a mistake.
Somewhere during the discussions it was strongly recommended that we streamline our characters.
People wanted something simpler, more direct, more accessible.
We told them. ?If you do this, you will lose all 200k subscribers. It is that significant.?
It was explained that we would gain more due to the marketing push and relaunch.
So, we pushed forward.
If I remember the dates correctly, we did our NGE conversion in 2-3 months of solid crunch. It was some of the heaviest crunch I?ve ever done.
We had an immovable date, and an insane set of features.
We were working in parallel, maintaining old code on the off chance that we would pull the plug on the implementation.
We launched, the marketing push failed, and we lost subscribers.
It was a misread at an organizational level. Marketing, Production, community. You name it.
Epoch grade f*ckup.
But.
The f*ckup was NOT the changes.
Let me say it again, louder, for those who do not get it.
THE F*CKUP WAS NOT THE CHANGES.
Galaxies NGE made it more playable. I think it lost a lot of the Raphy goodness that makes MMOs work, and that was a profound loss.
But the general idea was sound.
The control scheme was a good idea.
Losing the character skill system was not.
But, that?s not the point.
The point, the f*ckup, the mistake that we made, was answering an unasked question.
?Can you change an MMO drastically after it launches??
Categorically, NO.
If we were to do it again, and wanted to make those types of changes, you have to make a new game.
Relaunch with a new title.
Or shut down Galaxies and relaunch for real.
You cannot change it at runtime.
BUT!
And this is a HUGE but.
Right as I left SOE, post NGE..
Galaxies was subscriber positive.
A few thousand, but it was a far cry from the 10k per month we were losing.
A lot of you were upset. A lot of you still seem to be upset. I?m sorry if you feel betrayed, or that we ruined something you liked.
But I?m proud of the work I and the rest of the team did. I?m proud of the choices we made, the direction we took. ALL of SWG.
JTL, NGE, Launch, Jedi F*ckups. You name it.
We made mistakes. We made a LOT of mistakes. We crunched, we argued, we fired people, we hired people.
But we f*cking launched a godd*mned game. We launched a SECOND succesful MMO (post-uo). We made a f*cking amazing space game using the same f*cking game engine, integrated action combat, interior spaceships and in 9 MOTHERF*CKING MONTHS, all while running a succesful, cash positive product.
NGE was done in 3-4 months by a team of people. I am proud of the work that we did, even if I am torn about the end product.
So those who think it?s about blame or credit or who ruined what or how great it used to be when kids didn?t swear so much?
Take a deep breath and move on. Times change. Games don?t last forever.
Except UO. It?s still running. And I bet people are still pissed about some f*cked up code I wrote in 1997.
That, I am genuinely sorry for.
And Finally, a telling Anecdote that I think came from Gordon Walton originally.
A cancellation email from UO came in. A diatribe, really.
It want on and on about how shitty the game was, how it was the worst piece of crap he?d ever played.
So, someone called him to find out some information.
They asked how long he played for.
His answer?
2 years. "
When I read this I saw a lot of insults, and a lot of justification and defensiveness. I saw "I'm sorry" but that was between "go eat d*ck" and "I'm proud of what we did etc." Tbh, the guy sounds extremely hostile towards players and very unremorseful for the impact of his company's actions. At best, this apology read like "we made a mistake, but we had to, and I'm proud of it, so get over it, or go eat d*ck."
He's rewritten the blog a few times now, maybe his apologies will get better with practice. After reading the first version though, I can't help doubting his sincerity, even though I'm glad he deleted the most offensive insults.
Someone should have sat SOE/LA down and made them understand the total consequences of their actions. In my own personal opinion, they should have just fixed what was broke and not rushed the jedi proffession.
If after that, they still felt the game was not were they wanted it to be, then they should have opened one new server with the NGE concept and logged all community feedback that would have been coming in.
If the new server and NGE would have gotten rave reviews, then make the total change., but to do it the way SOE did it, was right out bait and switch fraud.
Forgiveness is a basic quality of civilzed society. Even the penal system has a policy of forgivness in that once you do your time its over and laws that make it so that the person is protected after he has "apologised" to the system by doing his time. Murderers are forgiven and given a chance. Its something you should learn to do especially when someone admits thatt he screwed up.
If you make a mistake at work do you get given another chance or raked over the coals for years on end and constantly given a hard time regardless of the fact you have been promoted, done a good job after the fact etc.
If you spill milk on the floor and I as your wife (a female) find you dont clean it up do i spend the next 5 years screaming at you for not noticing and making a mistake or do i point it out, clean it up say my piece and move on
Forgiveness is a basic positive human trait that is a good quality to have. Hate and anger on the other side are totally useless and serve no real purpose (except possibly to give you gas, ulcers and a headache).
This has nothing to do with forgiveness, or anger. In fact, the angriest person I see here is you.
I forgave them long ago. Others haven't. In that I am not God, it is not up to me, or my job to FORCE or berate others to forgive people. I certainly am not affected by anyone's anger -- it's all good in freedom, a freedom which YOU seem to have a problem with, so much that you need to defend wrongdoers and attack the victims because they do not have YOUR "forgiving" soul.
very very odd.
fishermage.blogspot.com
fishermage.blogspot.com
Anyone who thinks the original blog is a sincere apology should try this experiment.
The next time you do something hurtful to a significant other tell them that you're sorry, but you had to do it, and you're actually proud of what you did, and that they should get over it, or go eat d*ck.
After you've done that, come back and let us all know how that worked out.
Someone should have sat SOE/LA down and made them understand the total consequences of their actions. In my own personal opinion, they should have just fixed what was broke and not rushed the jedi proffession.
If after that, they still felt the game was not were they wanted it to be, then they should have opened one new server with the NGE concept and logged all community feedback that would have been coming in.
If the new server and NGE would have gotten rave reviews, then make the total change., but to do it the way SOE did it, was right out bait and switch fraud.
The eula clearly sais online play may be subject to changes without notice at any time. Also you can not switch and bait that which you do not own as also the eula clearly states by agreeing to this eula you herby agree that you do not own this or any other virtual items within this game from soe and La. As for fixing the game i do not think pre-cu was fixable, it was just wayyy to buggy , everytime something pre-cu was fixed a new exploit reared its ugly head that needed to be fixed, i didnt understand that then but i do now (as i was angry too until i realized) that this was the only way to fix the trash heap that was swg, I am finding it even more enjoyable now than before, me and my son just resubbed and are having a blast on bria.
The EULA argument, in that it is a non-negotiated contract, on;y goes as far as a "reasonable person's standard." NO way weere the changes wrought by the NGE reasonable. Thus, that argument fails.
fishermage.blogspot.com
OM NOM NOM
fishermage.blogspot.com
Someone should have sat SOE/LA down and made them understand the total consequences of their actions. In my own personal opinion, they should have just fixed what was broke and not rushed the jedi proffession.
If after that, they still felt the game was not were they wanted it to be, then they should have opened one new server with the NGE concept and logged all community feedback that would have been coming in.
If the new server and NGE would have gotten rave reviews, then make the total change., but to do it the way SOE did it, was right out bait and switch fraud.
The eula clearly sais online play may be subject to changes without notice at any time. Also you can not switch and bait that which you do not own as also the eula clearly states by agreeing to this eula you herby agree that you do not own this or any other virtual items within this game from soe and La. As for fixing the game i do not think pre-cu was fixable, it was just wayyy to buggy , everytime something pre-cu was fixed a new exploit reared its ugly head that needed to be fixed, i didnt understand that then but i do now (as i was angry too until i realized) that this was the only way to fix the trash heap that was swg, I am finding it even more enjoyable now than before, me and my son just resubbed and are having a blast on bria.
The EULA argument, in that it is a non-negotiated contract, on;y goes as far as a "reasonable person's standard." NO way weere the changes wrought by the NGE reasonable. Thus, that argument fails.
Even someone claiming to be a lawyer on these boards, who was supportive of SOE, admitted that the EULA is no protection if someone has intentionally misled customers. A mass of evidence ranging from dev chats to disclosures from former SOE employees supports the allegation that consumers were intentionally misled.
The EULA does not trump the criminal code. Anyone who thinks it does is in for a rude awakening.
Someone should have sat SOE/LA down and made them understand the total consequences of their actions. In my own personal opinion, they should have just fixed what was broke and not rushed the jedi proffession.
If after that, they still felt the game was not were they wanted it to be, then they should have opened one new server with the NGE concept and logged all community feedback that would have been coming in.
If the new server and NGE would have gotten rave reviews, then make the total change., but to do it the way SOE did it, was right out bait and switch fraud.
The eula clearly sais online play may be subject to changes without notice at any time. Also you can not switch and bait that which you do not own as also the eula clearly states by agreeing to this eula you herby agree that you do not own this or any other virtual items within this game from soe and La. As for fixing the game i do not think pre-cu was fixable, it was just wayyy to buggy , everytime something pre-cu was fixed a new exploit reared its ugly head that needed to be fixed, i didnt understand that then but i do now (as i was angry too until i realized) that this was the only way to fix the trash heap that was swg, I am finding it even more enjoyable now than before, me and my son just resubbed and are having a blast on bria.
The EULA argument, in that it is a non-negotiated contract, on;y goes as far as a "reasonable person's standard." NO way weere the changes wrought by the NGE reasonable. Thus, that argument fails.
Even someone claiming to be a lawyer on these boards, who was supportive of SOE, admitted that the EULA is no protection if someone has intentionally misled customers. A mass of evidence ranging from dev chats to disclosures from former SOE employees supports the allegation that consumers were intentionally misled.
The EULA does not trump the criminal code. Anyone who thinks it does is in for a rude awakening.
But if Smedley is God, and the EULA is His Holy Word, the Sons of Smedley will continue to smite thee with their scripture!!!
After all, it's all they got. Reason and justice sure ain't on their side...
OM NOM NOM
fishermage.blogspot.com
http://rubenfield.com/?p=86
I think it's intersesting that despite the fact that people left in droves due to the changes, he still doesn't get that the changes are why they left.
As to if they still have the code, well, given some of the unprofessional stunts these people pulled, destroying the original code is not beyond their levels of incompetence.
While I agree in manament decisions they are incompetent, they were leaders at that time as a software developer. I find it unbelievable that any large scale software company would ever destroy backups of an original code set.You wouldn't believe how much most companies keep. We RARELY ever tossed out anything and when the last company I worked for got bought out and beat down we purposefully destroyed probably a 1000gigs of developed and raw code that we knew would never see the light of day, but kept none the less.
They have it as well as all the NPC precu character scripts. I wish they would donate it. I know they never will, but a certain production team would love it.
Want a taste of religion? Lick a witch.
This is the same guy who was a part of Raph Koster's team that created UO and classic SWG. It's funny some of you people are saying how stupid he is - when he was one of the people that created the games you all love so much.
The truth is, and you would know this if you read his two posts, that it was a corporate directive to "change the game." He wanted to add the option to fight in FPS style, but thought it was a big mistake to remove the skill based system and classes.
So get it right before you go off half cocked. He was an employee who worked on a huge IP (Star Wars) for a huge faceless corporation. You act like he had any real choice.
He told the corporate people something like, "if you remove the skill system and classes you will loose the rest of our subscribers."
My favorite subject has always been history. But I've never been into "re-written" history.
I miss the good ol' days when nerds were actually intelligent.
His initial post was basically him saying "eat a dick" and 'go fuck yourself' to anyone who was upset over the NGE. He also claimed that the only bad part of the NGE was that the marketing folks dropped the ball and that nothing he did was bad. Really, being part of the team that made the original UO and/or the original SWG isn't carte blanc to be an unmitigated arrogant asshole. Yay, he was against some of the changes his team implemented. give the asshole a cookie...
He was told to make the game more accessible and more appealing. What he, and his team, came up with was the NGE. Two and a half years later, the NGE is still not a good, or even a base level appealing, game. He still thinks the NGE made the game better and more fun. That takes an exceptional level of delusion.
No one is saying he isn't a smart guy; just that, from his original post, he isn't a particularly good guy.
I completely understand who and what he worked for and the dark choices he felt he needed to make. I would be completely sympathetic had he not told us all to eat a male member.
He also refuses to understand that the REASON the game never did well was mismanagement and not fixing what was wrong over years, and the CU, which he also obviously approved of (which led to the 10K subs a week loss of which he spoke). As Lead Designer, HE was responsible for that, along with Smedley and others. THEIR failure was COMPOUNDED by the very things they clamed would fix them.
That failed epically. He still resfuses to admit any of this, and tells us to go eat a male member. OM NOM NOM. My what a charming fellow you have chosen to defend.
With all that in consideration, I find it difficult to sympathize with his plight.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Not exactly. It's not like Smed was standing behind him with a gun to his head forcing him to ruin SWG.
He says in his post that the NGE combat system is perfect and anybody who has played it knows it's not.
Exactly, and this is why the asshole should really think twice about ever showing his face at any type of public gaming event. You don't tell folks to go eat cock and expect to be able to walk in public without seriouse reprecussions.
I sifted throug the thread and saw something fly by about me working for sony. Its kinda funny but anyone who is contrary to the common line of thinking must work for sony or be a "spy" or something. I also read all versions of his blog. The guy has a foul mouth but asside from that there is an apology in there. I play video games Im used to foul mouths on grown adults by now if i wasn't I probably would have stopped playing them long ago.
In any event feel free to accuse or state that people who post here work for sony. Its interesting to watch but I would think that sony cant be bothered with this board or much else that is this mess
carry on with the rants in the vets forum .. no I dont work for sony my username on the sony forums is ultrabluebottle (easy enough to find). sony employees have red names my is not red but purple and dated 2003 the year the game was released. Meh whatever
*grins at the "you work for sony" remarks*
Yes I think for myself. NO i dont hold with a lot of what people say because I dont necessarily agree with it all. I long ago drew my own conclusions and it was that sony made a mistake. They have to my satisfaction corrected it and as a result I started playing their stupid games again. .. /shrugs
lol at works for sony (can't get over that one..)
I should not be so surprised.. rofl
In case you missed the original. I can post screenshots of the same later.
"
In Which I try to speak honestly about history
06.12.08 | 32 Comments
After continual thought, I still think this is a worthwhile discussion. I am cleaning out some of the assiness so we can maybe have a legitimate talk.
If I have ever created something that you didnt like or that brought
you sadness, I apologize.
That is never the goal of a game developer.
However.
Let us set the record straight.
Let us set the history of the Star Wars Galaxies NGE into something
that makes a little more sense to those from the outside.
First, some ground rules.
I am a game designer. I make video games. I manage teams, develop
features, and turn the creative insanity that is game development into
demonstrable and sellable products.
A lot of this manifests itself in the form of direct implementation.
Scripting, writing, hands on content development.
I do not sit in a room and give orders. Generally, nobody Ive worked
with ever did this.
We provided a means to create something to make money.
As professional developers, it is our job to execute on these types of
creative endeavors within the context of limited finances, linear
time, and sometimes explicit creative direction.
Sometimes this context is direction from Raph Koster. Sometimes it is
to meet a marketing need, other times it is one of business decisions.
At times, I describe it as,
If someone asks for pink fluffy bunnies, we give then bunnies done to the best of our abilities. You might hate bunnies, but you make the best bunnies you can possibly make. That is your job
That is what we do. All of this is tempered with reality. Sometimes things take longer than wed like.
Sometimes things end up more or less fun than we intended.
This is the job of a designer.
This is what I did on UO, Galaxies, JTL and every other game I worked
and am working on.
So we were given the directive to make Galaxies better.
Not just make Galaxies better, but make it succesful. Not the 200k
subs it had, but really succesful. The idea was that we had the most
valuable IP in the entire world, and we fucked it up to the point of
having 200k subs.
And yes, all 200k of you were important, but 200k means nothing in the
scheme of things.
I worked on Galaxies for around 5 and a half years. Thats a long time.
I wrote the combat system, mission system, spawning system. I wrote
the combat model for JTL, implemented all of the development tools and
ship interior systems and more.
Hell, I implemented the original Jedi System in 2 weeks after we
launched. Not because it was how we wanted it, but because we had 2
weeks to do it.
I have the understanding of where we went wrong and how. I see the
misteps and how the experience was misaligned with what most people
wanted from a Star Wars game.
So, when the NGE push came along, we were asked to reimagine the game.
Not just small changes, but rebuild it.
And it was needed. When we were asked, we were bleeding subscribers.
If I remember correctly, somewhere around 10k a month. LOSING 10,000
subs a month.
Note - I think our subs were closer to 160-180 than 200k. It was a bad financial situation no matter how you look at it.
It was not idyllic. You can remember it as an amazing game, but it wasnt.
Hell, all of you who recall the grand ole days of launch seem to
conveniently forget that everyone quit shortly afterwards.
Its similiar to the UO rose colored glasses. Everyone remembers the
positives, but nobody remembers how unpalatable UO was before Trammel.
Nobody acknowledges that after Renaissance, UOs numbers rose from
110k to 220k.
But I digress.
WOW was out. SWG was niche and clunky. Or so it seemed. Theres a question of how close we got to the product, how our perspective changed as competitors launched.
We were told to imagine something new and unique. To push it to the
next level.
Originally, it was specced as a tutorial. A tutorial
paired with a new marketing push, new and grandiose relaunch that
would recapture the magic that we missed when we first released.
But a tutorial wasnt enough. We scrambled to come up with something
more impressive.
We tested out a new combat system on a whim. I did a quick prototype
and we discussed it internally.
The difference was the control scheme, not the rules. You clicked, You shot.
When we demonstrated it, the first comment was Wooooah .
And the producer left the room.
He came back shortly and was torn. He knew that we had to make the
change. It was THAT much better. At least, that much potentially better.
We did a side by side comparison. We tried to play the old system. We couldnt.
However, we made a mistake. A BIG mistake.
Somewhere during the discussions it was strongly recommended that we
streamline our characters.
People wanted something simpler, more direct, more accessible.
We told them. If you do this, you will lose all of our subscribers. It is that significant.
The response was that we would gain more due to the marketing push and relaunch.
So, we pushed forward.
If I remember the dates correctly, we did our NGE conversion in 2-3
months of solid crunch. It was some of the heaviest crunch Ive ever
done.
We had an immovable date, and an insane set of features.
We were working in parallel, maintaining old code on the off chance
that we would pull the plug on the implementation.
Note - We didnt notify anyone about the change until 2 weeks before launch because until 2 weeks before launch we hadnt made a decision. You basically found out when we found out.
We launched, the marketing push failed, and we lost subscribers.
It was a misread at an organizational level. Design, Marketing, Production,
community. You name it.
We made huge mistakes. We got too close to the changes. Design took something and made it bigger than it shouldve been.
We got swept up in the wave of changes and ran with it. And we fucked it up. All of us.
Note - To those who think I might be pointing fingers. I say it out loud, Italicized and Bold.
I fucked it up.
Not all of it, but I made mistakes.
Some big ones, Some small ones,
Some that Im still torn about to this day.
That is how things work. We make mistakes. We are not infallible.
We take these lessons and try not to fuck up again.
That is the nature of design.
Did the buck stop with design? Did the buck stop with Me?
No.
When I say it was an organizational failure, I mean it. Design made mistakes, Marketing made mistakes, Management made mistakes, Production made mistakes.
Did I alone give the go/no-go?
No.
Did design alone give the go/no-go?
No
Did an organization, made up of over 200 people give the go/no-go?
Yes.
Does that obviate us of blame?
Nope.
It was still a huge fuckup.
Epoch grade fuckup.
I think it lost a lot of the Raphy goodness that makes MMOs work, and that was a profound loss.
That was a huge mistake.
But I think the control scheme changes were dead on.
Does that matter? Not really.
The point, the fuckup, the mistake that we made, was answering an
unasked question.
Can you change an MMO drastically after it launches?
Categorically, NO.
If we were to do it again, and wanted to make those types of changes,
you have to make a new game.
Relaunch with a new title.
Or shut down Galaxies and relaunch for real.
You cannot change it at runtime.
A lot of you were upset. A lot of you still seem to be upset. Im
sorry if you feel betrayed, or that we ruined something you liked.
But Im proud of the work I and the rest of the team did. Im proud of
the choices we made, the direction we took. ALL of SWG.
JTL, NGE, Launch, Jedi Fuckups. You name it.
We made mistakes. We made a LOT of mistakes. We crunched, we argued,
we fired people, we hired people.
But we fucking launched a goddamned game. We launched a SECOND
succesful MMO (post-uo). We made a fucking amazing space game using
the same fucking game engine, integrated action combat, interior
spaceships and in 9 MOTHERFUCKING MONTHS, all while running a
succesful, cash positive product.
NGE was done in right around 2 months by a team of people.
I am proud of the work that we did, even if I am torn about the end product.
So those who think its about blame or credit or who ruined what or
how great it used to be when kids didnt swear so much
Take a deep breath and move on. Times change. Games dont last forever.
Except UO. Its still running. And I bet people are still pissed about
some fucked up code I wrote in 1997.
That, I am genuinely sorry for.
32 Comments
* On 06.12.08 Bob_Blawblaw wrote these pithy words:
THE FUCKUP WAS NOT THE CHANGES.
Galaxies NGE made it more playable. I think it lost a lot of the Raphy goodness that makes MMOs work, and that was a profound loss.
But the general idea was sound.
Gonna go ahead and (mostly) disagree there Pall.
It was unplayable. Did you actually play it? It was a broken unplayable mess. Did you even bother testing it in a real-world internet scenario? A good designer designs within technical limitations. Yes its good to push boundaries of course, but sometimes its wise to keep your feet planted on solid ground and know what actually WILL work.
And as for the subscription bleed out finally stopping of course it slowed down. Cut someone (whos anemic) a little, and they bleed for a long time blow a hole in them with a shotgun, and theyll bleed out alot faster, at that point, halelujah, theyll stop bleeding (of course, like SWG, theyd be dead).
* On 06.12.08 Tuebit wrote these pithy words:
WOW! (The exclamation, not the game). Many years on, I still wonder at the gaff that was NGE, and I tidbits like this very interesting (thanks!)
Let me also say that it was a great game. Sure it had its problems, but there were many great elements that havent been seen since.
A few question:
#1 Was there a rationale given for not tweaking and fixing? Evolution rather than revolution?
#2 Have you heard since whether it has remained net positive? If one believes what one hears the game is barely played today.
* On 06.12.08 Vargen wrote these pithy words:
For what its worth as J random player, I think the basic idea behind the NGE was a good one. I really liked the new control scheme. I didnt like the way the skill system gave way to classes, but that wasnt so bad in the abstract. It was the conversion process that drove me away.
If the conversion had gone smoother I probably would have stuck with it. As it was I went from skill-capped with a jack-of-all-trades character to level 30-something too high for the initial quests, but too far away from Mustafar. Even so I would have ground out the XP in space, but since I was already Ace I wasnt actually *getting* XP up there.
Jump to Lightspeed is hands down my favorite online experience. Thank you for what you did to provide me with so much fun. Of all the virtual homes Ive left behind over the years, I think my YT-1300 is the one I miss the most.
* On 06.12.08 Fishermage wrote these pithy words:
Seems like you missed why things were not going well. perhaps the CU did not address the problems, and the game was never the success it should have been because of the mismanagement of assets, the lack of content, the broken professions and quests, and all the things people actually SAID.
Maybe thing would have turned around if you had actually fixed what was broken instead of trying to re-invent the wheel. I know hindsight is 20-20, but thats what makes the most sense to me.
* On 06.12.08 Apprentice to Darth Holden wrote these pithy words:
I realize youre probably still under NDAs and other oppresive fascist shit, but answer me this:
What was the NGE really about? Was it about the Niemoidian slime of Lucas Arts being pissed that their IP was getting its ass kicked by Blizzard? Was it about John Smedley being pwned by the first MMO effort of Blizzard? Was it about pride? Was it about money?
Because it would have been far better to just bleed 10k subs a month than to instantly lose 200k, imagining that some of WoWs playebase would flock to a barely out of alpha bastard copy of WoW with a Star Wars skin, which apparently is what Lucas Arts focus groups indicated would happen.
These idiots were told, five years ago this month, that SWG was not ready for launch by beta testers who wanted it to succeed every bit as much as anyone on the SOE payroll.
They launched it anyway, and you devs spent most of your time playing catchup trying to finish a game which is obviously in many respects still unfinished five years later, even after two major revisions.
BTW theyve finally figured out what to do with the battlefields, it seems. Put a POI and some factional NPCS in the middle of it and send people on quests to it.
Assuming they dont rubberband to death on the way there, or course.
* On 06.12.08 Apprentice to Darth Holden wrote these pithy words:
Oh and so you know, when the NGE did what it did, I cancelled two accounts.
And have not been back as a paying customer. Of SOE or Lucas Arts.
* On 06.12.08 Matt wrote these pithy words:
This is beating a dead horse. A dead horse that gobbled time and in-game resources. A dead horse that was part of a much larger dead Trojan horse.
The casual gamer knew not what they were getting into when building towards something that was ultimately supposed to be unique - i.e. Jedi.
The casual gamer knew not that what made the game unique - the sandbox aspect - was no longer marketable.
The casual gamer knew not the changes in store right after a major content push for a new expansion (and probably wouldnt have bought said new expansion if they had known about the new system, the complete rebuild, the completely (more or less) new game.)
All of the above is beating a dead horse, as is this post. And this comment.
If you want to get this off of your chest and feel like the ends justify the means, more power to you. More subscribers? Awesome. Its just too bad that in the short time after the NGE hit, the economy was destroyed once again, and most of the subs that came in were for credit farmers and spam bots. Nobody would know the true number of how many spam bots and credit farmers actually inhabit a server at any given time since there is no real way to know how many subs are active on a server, nor where any of this data would be (if it even is) published.
People will play it because it is a glorified chatroom in which they can interact with other people and do more than just look at text fly by on a screen.
And we will continue to play it because it continues to give what any game should give - an escape from reality.
But then again, beating a dead horse is boring. Its been long enough - and thankfully, anybody who still remembers is either not even subbed anymore or has moved on.
As have I.
* On 06.13.08 kefkah wrote these pithy words:
So when you say that you kept the existing code does that mean that Smeds explanation that they dont have the old code is a fabrication? NGE being better or not, many of us always believed that losing the code or doing away with it never made any sense.
* On 06.13.08 Good Apollo, Dear God The Internet It Burns IV: Srsly, Dude « Broken Toys wrote these pithy words:
[ ] Apollo, Dear God The Internet It Burns IV: Srsly, Dude (Edit: it appears that bells are unringing, or at least the subject of this note took to heart some of the no doubt polite and reasoned [ ]
* On 06.13.08 Vahl wrote these pithy words:
the NGE was bad. Just bad. The implementation of the NGE was beyond bad.
With the NGE I lost EVERYTHING I had worked hard to obtain and play. The two professions I adored the most were gone, utterly gone . Wiped off the face of the game playing world with out so much as an apology or a by your leave or compensation. Gone.
Combat was sped up to the point of ridiculousness, the UI looked like a Japanese cartoon dogs dinner nightmare and game play was borked beyond reason.
The NGE destroyed so many things and I, along with so many other people left.
The worst thing was the smug comments by certain members of the DEV team / management about the protest of people quitting was just for show.
WELL over a year after the NGE fiasco I came back mostly because My husband missed having me in game andthe game we currently have while still missing so much of what was there pre nge is better and more playable.
I do not yearn for pre CU, nor do I miss the Cu times either but I miss diversity and I miss CHOICE which none of the developers and the people who make the decisions seem to understand. With the implementation of the NGE you took away the players ability to choose. Now we have a game that is better than the NGE, maybe even better than before the NGE but we have a community so divided by what happened these wounds will never heal and that sits squarely on the people who implemented this disaster.
I will forever loath the people who created the NGE. The stupidity and selfish, sightless greed that created the mess we, as players, had to deal with serves as a message to all other mmos out there.
I cannot even begin to list the things that made / make me as a paying customer angry. I loath you all for what you did to us, the people who paid good money to play a good game.
Your attitude of take it or leave was a slap in the face.You ( collectively) insulted the intelligence of players and you all wonder why everyone was so angry.
It was a clusterfuck of huge proportions and it will never be forgotten.
* On 06.13.08 Stefson wrote these pithy words:
Interesting article, and actually very fun to read.
And yes, all 200k of you were important, but 200k means nothing in the scheme of things.
Strange you say this, 200k means nothing? Maybe in the post WOW world 200k seems little, but if done right 200k can get you a long way (EVE?).
I think you mean 200k meant nothing for SOE. They went Jerry Maguire on everyone Show me the money!!
If someone asks for pink fluffy bunnies, we give then bunnies done to the best of our abilities. You might hate bunnies, but you make the best bunnies you can possibly make. That is your job
Speaks for itself. So you (and others) knew the game was going to be *** with all these changes.
Ok, I hear you when you say your proud of what you did in so little a time, but still, most people wont see it that way
I am proud of the work that we did, even if I am torn about the end product.
Take a deep breath and move on. Times change. Games dont last forever.
Cool of you to admit that.
I recently tried SWG again, you can see at my blog.
I think the current team is doing a nice job at keeping SWG alive if I can say it that way. I definately miss the old days, but like you said, those will live on in my memories
http://www.stefson.com/204/star-wars-galaxies-return-to-the-game/
http://www.stefson.com/227/an-epic-quest-trying-to-cancel-my-swg-sub/
* On 06.13.08 Saphy wrote these pithy words:
WOW was out. SWG was niche and clunky. Or so it seemed.
Funny how you removed everything that made SWG unique and special with the NGE, but kept all the clunky aspects, and even made the whole UI more clunky than before.
Its also funny how the CU slowed down the game horribly, and told us its perfect this way, half a year later you told us one of the reason for the NGE is that a star wars game has to be faster.
People left the game 2005 in droves mostly because of the CU, and how it did NOT adress the problems that existed for many people. And they left because of the bugs even before that.
You can say your sources, your surveys and focus groups, said something else. But we played and spoke with the people who left. We played the game.
* On 06.13.08 Flight wrote these pithy words:
Quote :
I think it lost a lot of the Raphy goodness that makes MMOs work,
It amazes me how much of the industry believes Kosters bullshit. He writes about fun, yet he doesnt know how to deliver it. He is the industries pseudo-intellectual professor, who teaches in a college because he has no idea how to make it work in the real world.
Koster produces social experiments, not games. They arent what people are looking for in games
SWG had a lot of positive stuff. I had 3 accounts. It was missing meaningful loot. With no meaningful loot and no meaningful dungeons all that was left was Raphs standard social experiment, tagged on to a terrific class and combat system.
And a BIG part of the failure was shipping with a totally broken armor system. In a game which relied on player made armor and weapons, the armor system was broken.
* On 06.13.08 djmtott wrote these pithy words:
I understand the business aspect behind it all. If 200k subs wasnt good enough then you had to do something.
I just think your efforts wouldve been better focused on fixing all of the bugs and adding some good features and content, and then using that marketing blitz (which I dont remember seeing anything) to pull more people in.
Instead, the game was changed, alienated 50+% of the playerbase, and wasnt attractive to new players.
I think the biggest thing you didnt take into account was that if you chase off all of the players then no one is going to touch your game. When the rats are trying to flee the sinking ship youre not going to have a new group of rats trying to climb onboard.
* On 06.13.08 Noordvike wrote these pithy words:
-
While your statements are actually nearing the feeling of what I as a customer in the game you worked on, needed to hear on that infamous Nov 15th; I think that there are so many people that invested so much of their time and lives into that game, only to be betrayed and utterly stripped of their time, social, and MONETARY investment, that no words at this point could ever neutralize the anger and resentment some people have. Especially with how we as a loyal paying customer were treated post NGE release.
Thank you for taking the time to state your view and explain things in the way you saw them.
I for one still harbor a deep resentment towards SWG management (that includes you I think) for destroying many of the in-game friendships that I formed or was forming. For actually allowing the most creative character skill creation system to be compromised for a dumbed-down painfully restrictive character skill set and removing some of the funnest and most difficult professions to play. What the hell were you people thinking by allowing Jedi to be a starting profession and so drastically flushing the time and money investment of you most loyal customers ? That was the kicker there. That made enough multi-account holding loyal customers push the cancel button and bad-mouth SWG into having the absolute worse reputation in the MMO world, as it exists today.
I am not angry that a game was changed. Its just a game in that sense and I have played and shelved enough games to not be too bothered by that.
I am angry (still) that my investment was compromised by a bunch of short-sighted, greedy, lazy, weak-minded SWG management members. You as a primary contributor to the design of the game system and team lead bear a significant responsibility for the decisions that were taken and the resulting massive loss of player base.
You rewrote and launched a MMO in 2-3 months. You released it forcefully to a paying customer base of 200K people replacing the investment of 2+ years with your idea of an acceptable game system. Everyone makes mistakes, its just that it is unbelievable that a team staff of 200 could not have the vision or understanding to realize they were certainly going to alienate their existing customer base by completely changing the product without consulting their customers first. The quality of your released product (the NGE) was far-and-away the lowest quality of video game I have ever paid for and for me personally, the most disappointing in the 24 years I have been playing video games. Yup, Im still pissed about it and so are the tens of thousands of others who trusted their investment in the hands of the likes of you and the rest of the team who were working on SWG at the time.
You and the rest of the management team at SWG could not have fucked it up any more than you did. It was an epic disaster I expect to be used as an example and talked about for many years to come.
* On 06.13.08 ValkoSipuliSuola wrote these pithy words:
Lets talk expectation management for a minute.
Im sure the suits all thought that if you took one of the most valuable IPs around and partnered it with the folks who made EverQuest (keep in mind this was pre-WoW, and EQ was the shit), you couldnt lose. You would have millions of subs and everyone involved would be buried under piles of cash.
With that expectation, a Star Wars MMO with 200k subs was considered a complete failure. Something had to be done, and it had to be done quickly. Everyone keeps talking about fixing bugs and adding content. While that may have slowed the cancellation rate, it wasnt enough. It would be like putting a new muffler on your Celica. Sure, it would make it better, but the NGE was a freakin Ferrari! The execs were willing to sacrifice the 200k players they had, thinking they could bring in a million new ones. A risky move, but once again, in their eyes they didnt have much to lose.
What they didnt count on was how much damage those disaffected players could do. Their existing player base was so angry (and rightfully so) that they began screaming and yelling to anyone who would listen. The marketing and community folks were simply unable to counter all of the negative press coming from those players, but not from a lack of trying. They did the best they could, but they were unprepared for the ferocity of that backlash.
Did the NGE make it a better game? Yeah. Did it make it more accessible to the masses? Definitely. Had the NGE been the game they shipped at launch, would they have had their millions of subs? I dont know. Well never know.
* On 06.13.08 Athela wrote these pithy words:
Did anyone at any time think they should just change the combat system (which everyone from the knuckledragger crowd whined about since the beginning) and leave the rest of the game alone? The Raphiness was Raph at his best. Well never see anything like it again, even from him. The profession losses were the most idiodic thingwhose idea was that?
I also noted the line about the old code running alongside the new, which means a mystery solved and the pristine version of Galaxies could be brought back. Thanks for that, at least.
Athela
* On 06.13.08 djmtott wrote these pithy words:
Atone for your sins and help out the SWGemu effort!!!
* On 06.13.08 Mark wrote these pithy words:
Indeed to fail is human, to act immorally is also a human fraility.
What I wonder is if you realize that the entire basis for the decision was based on an immoral act?
You readily admit that you were willing to slap those that had been feeding you in the gut. You recognized it would be fatel to many even. Yet for the sake of sating your greed (and the companies), you made the decision to step on those that had been faithfully giving you that living for 5 years anyways. That act is not a good act.
Next time deal honestly with and in the best interest of your customers (given their wants not yours) and it will turn out better. Its that simple.
* On 06.13.08 taodon wrote these pithy words:
Milk. That one simple word is why I was frustrated with the original game. The Bio-Engineer required Milk in 90% of its recipes for the 2nd tier, and it hadnt been placed in the game (or if it was, it wasnt easily accessible.) All we wanted was Milk, all we asked for was Milk. Instead - we got the NGE - and the Bio-Engineer was removed the game. Milk is in the game now though.
I think that sums up SWG for me the most - in the real word we call it cutting off your nose to spite your face. Unfortunately, you took the eyes, mouth, and ears too. So, saying NGE was the problem - well - thats a little disingenuous, isnt it?
* On 06.13.08 Froztwolf wrote these pithy words:
Thank you for this article. It is excellent to get a look behind the scenes in the famous event in MMO history.
With the information and expectations you had it seems like a reasonable decision to rebuild the game. I probably would have agreed with that at the time.
There are two things in your account that struck me. First was that you had only 2-3 months to totally revamp the game. I am a game designer for an MMO myself and if my department were asked to do this I would flat our refuse, at the risk of being terminated. This is nowhere near enough time to overhaul all the major game systems and retain any degree of quality.
The second thing is how nonchalantly you mention that you had 2-3 months. Is this par for the course? If s then its so much less surprising why most SOE MMOs suffer from such a lack of polish.
I dont mean to subtract from your efforts and I dont mean to tell you how to do your job. Performing this task in any way or form in this time is commendable. Asking people to do so is not.
* On 06.13.08 Woody wrote these pithy words:
You share the same affliction as Freeman, you think your idea of what is fun is better than the people who are actually paying believe.
Even after seeing what a complete mess you made, you still think you were right which shows you shouldnt be working in this industry. You just dont have the smarts to realize it.
* On 06.13.08 mild7 wrote these pithy words:
Interesting info and insight.
I have a question I hope you can answer. In the original jedi system. Was the key mastering a random, pre-defined proffession? Was it a combination of pre-defined proffessions? Or was there a die roll after each mastery with better odds after each mastery?
I had to master 31 of the 32 professions to unlock my slot, and Id like to know.
BTW, I still play and dont look back with rose glasses.
* On 06.13.08 Some guy wrote these pithy words:
Thank you for this honest and insightful look into SWG.
* On 06.13.08 EvilJohn wrote these pithy words:
Doomed, were doooomed! (Sorry figured you needed a little Hal channeling for this)
* On 06.13.08 Tuebit wrote these pithy words:
Dan Rubenfield wrote: And it was needed. When we were asked, we were bleeding subscribers.
When was the when we were asked? If the crunch was 2-3 months. I assume there was some time prior to the crunch for the referenced prototyping, thinking and discussion. NGE launched in November so that makes the timing Julyish a few months after the CU release? The Wikipedia entry for SWG claims that subscriptions began to grow again, a short while after CU.
I think the big lesson (can it be called a lesson is learning that salt is, um, salty, a lesson?) is that ZOMG!!11 Epic Fun cannot be added to a game in a few months with patch.
* On 06.13.08 John wrote these pithy words:
Once again we hear the bleeding subscribers mantra. Did any of the 200 plus professionals up there even once stop to think, hey maybe, just maybe if we actually FIX what is here instead of constantly changing things, we would stop bleeding subs? I imagine most subs just got tired of things not getting fixed. No instead you all decided to keep changing the horse midstream.
The typical to worried about what you dont have instead of the subs you actually did have and try to build on that. See EVE for an excellent example of this. You people got e-peen envy and just couldnt see the trees for the forest. I get the idea you people figured most of your current players were just dumb kids? I mean its only reasonable considering how you treated the subs. I bet you were surprised to find there were many adult players.
What an arrogant bunch of pricks you all are. You can be proud all you like for changing my game. But know this, Im just as proud to never give SOE or LA any of my money again. I will proudly tell anyone who will listen about the sneaky and untrustworthy SOE and LA business practices. So while you can be proud of what was accomplished in a short period of time, you can take your proud at changing my characters and not giving me nothing in return and shove it up your collective asses. After all in essence all I got was a FUCK YOU from SOE and LA anyway, I just like to return the favor.
You bunch of arrogant bastards still dont get it do you.
* On 06.13.08 Genvieve Mohito wrote these pithy words:
And yes, all 200k of you were important, but 200k means nothing in the scheme of things.
Thank you for looking at the world of MMOs like a comunist general. If we kill 200k people, then 1 million people will have a better life.
All life is important and I think SOE should have had someone on staff who realized that each and every account was valuable to them. Its no longer about the game experience anymore, this discussion is about people not money. Ive tried to find another word to use that doesnt sound so hostile, but HATE is the only one that truely expresses my feelings towards SOE.
SOE has time and again set a precident that they dont care about the actual subscribers, just subscription numbers.
Vanguard is another prime example of putting something out there that is beyond broken and offering no appologies.
I will never, let me make this perfectly clear, NEVER play any game put out by SOE ever again. Regardless of its content, the company shows a complete disregard for the people who keep them in their fancy houses.
* On 06.13.08 What? (by Jeff Freeman) wrote these pithy words:
[ ] http://rubenfield.com/ [ ]
* On 06.13.08 CptKetten wrote these pithy words:
Throughout your post you apologize for making something we didnt like.
Actions, however, speak louder than words. But you know, there is a way for you to un-do some of the damage you caused. Im assuming you know of the Emulator project at http://www.swgemu.com and http://www.swganh.com. How about helping them? Ya sure, I know. Youre busy.
Go to http://www.swgemu.com. They have extensive forums and progress updates. Currently they are having issues with heightmaps. Maybe you could give them some tips? Something?
Believe me, I get it. You are out to make money. You want to be on the latest MMO development teams creating the newest mega-success.
You could redeem yourself in the eyes of the community if you helped the Emulator, in ANY way, big or small.
Its your choice.
* On 06.13.08 Wulfman wrote these pithy words:
Well, for sure the original game design was already flawed and rushed to live before it was ready. There should have been more real Star wars options and one should have been able to enlist as an Imperial. However, the CU fixed most of it and the game was finally on its way up (from the content and balance point of view).
Who ever though that what was pushed out as the original NGE was a good idea has no idea on who a good game looks like and has never sen any Star Wars movie. When I first saw it I was horrified by the crap that was pushed on people who played a game that was after many years finally working for the most part.
Now, a few years later the current dev team has fixed some of the major mistakes that were made and finally have the game at a playable and interesting levle, however, the screw up of the original NGE set the game back about a year and I think it would be much more competitive in todays market without the NGE set back.
It is my opinion that one has a choice on what to do in their professional live. If you saw already at the time that it was rushed and that it would upset the players that were there it was your duty to speak up (than and there). Doing it now is too late. To many things on this earth happen and people say that they were just doing their job (or following orders). If you do not agree than say it out loud.
* On 06.13.08 Curate wrote these pithy words:
Genvieve: ..this discussion is about people not money.
In the world of MMOs, people = money. There were not enough people to make SWG as profitable as expected, and given how drastic the NGE was Im guessing SWG wasnt profitable at all. People keep waving the OMG WoW GREED ENVY flag. From the original post here: Hell, all of you who recall the grand ole days of launch seem to conveniently forget that everyone quit shortly afterwards. (To be fair, I couldnt forget that because I never knew that if SirBruce shrugs and keeps the subs at around 300K for 2 years, how are the rest of us supposed to know?)
The game was doing very, very poorly. Keep in mind that ambitious design + Star Wars IP + dream team design crew = expensive product. 200K may have been good for an MMO, but at the time this was the MMO.
People bailed. Now, I agree completely that those who chose to remain shouldve been treated much, much better, if for no other reason then because pissing off happy customers is bad for a company. Still, when youre talking about a business where coders, artists, and designers need to have projects and take home paychecks yeah, it is about money.
"
That isnt the original post.
This was the original post. Note the lack of comments. I captured it before the edits.
In which I start a flame war with the internet.
06.12.08 | Comment?
Caveat - This is not an argument. I will attempt to speak honestly about these elements, to give you perspective. For those of you who want to misconstrue it, or perceive it as some “ZOMG YOU ROONED SWG”, please proceed to the back of the room where you can quietly eat a d**k. OM NOM NOM.
For the rest, I look forward to a well versed and intelligent discourse on the nature of a creative business, and how to better approach difficult situations in the future.
begin article here. You d**k eaters quiet down. *om nom nom*
So, I just logged back in to discover that a bunch of you whackjobs have turned one of these threads into some misguided personal grievance with the SWG NGE.
So first.
If I have ever created something that you didn’t like or that brought you sadness, I apologize.
That is never the goal of a game developer.
However.
Let us set the record straight.
Let us set the history of the Star Wars Galaxies NGE into something that makes a little more sense to those from the outside.
First, some ground rules.
I am a game designer. I make video games. I manage teams, develop features, and turn the creative insanity that is game development into demonstrable and sellable products.
A lot of this manifests itself in the form of direct implementation. Scripting, writing, hands on content development.
I do not sit in a room and give orders. Generally, nobody I’ve worked with ever did this.
We provided a means to create something to make money.
As professional developers, it is our job to execute on these types of creative endeavors within the context of limited finances, linear time, and sometimes explicit creative direction.
Sometimes this context is direction from Raph Koster. Sometimes it is to meet a marketing need, other times it is one of business decisions.
At times, I describe it as, ‘If someone asks for pink fluffy bunnies, we give then bunnies done to the best of our abilities. If we don’t like those, we can still deliver the best bunnies based off of our understanding of the marketplace.”
That is what we do. All of this is tempered with reality. Sometimes people get sick. Sometimes things take longer than we’d like. Sometimes things end up more or less fun than we intended.
This is the job of a designer.
This is what I did on UO, Galaxies, JTL and every other game I worked and am working on.
So we were given the directive to make Galaxies better.
Not just make Galaxies better, but make it succesful. Not the 200k subs it had, but really succesful. The idea was that we had the most valuable IP in the entire world, and we f**ked it up to the point of having 200k subs.
And yes, all 200k of you were important, but 200k means nothing in the scheme of things.
I worked on Galaxies for around 5 and a half years. That’s a long time.
Before we launched, I wrote the combat system, mission system, spawning system.
I wrote the combat model for JTL, implemented Content development tools and ship interior systems and more.
Hell, I implemented the original Jedi System in 2 weeks after we launched. Not because it was how we wanted it, but because we had 2 weeks to do it.
I have the understanding of where we went wrong and how. I see the misteps and how the experience was misaligned with what most people wanted from a Star Wars game.
So, when the NGE push came along, we were asked to reimagine the game.
Not just small changes, but rebuild it.
And it was needed. When we were asked, we were bleeding subscribers.
If I remember correctly, somewhere around 10k a month. LOSING 10,000 subs a month.
It was not idyllic. You can remember it as an amazing game, but it wasn’t.
Hell, all of you who recall the grand ole days of launch seem to conveniently forget that everyone quit shortly afterwards.
It’s similiar to the UO rose colored glasses. Everyone remembers the positives, but nobody remembers how unpalatable UO was before Trammel. Nobody acknowledges that after Renaissance, UO’s numbers rose from 110k to 220k.
But I digress.
WOW was out. SWG was niche and clunky.
We were asked to imagine something new and unique. To push it to the next level. Originally, it was specced as a tutorial. A tutorial paired with a new marketing push, new and grandiose relaunch that would recapture the magic that we missed when we first released.
But a tutorial wasn’t enough. We scrambled to come up with something more impressive.
We tested out a new combat system on a whim. I did a quick prototype and we discussed it internally.
The difference was the control scheme, not the rules. You clicked, You shot.
When we demonstrated it, the first comment was “Wooooah….”
And the producer left the room.
He came back shortly and was torn. He knew that we had to make the change. It was THAT much better.
We did a side by side comparison. We tried to play the old system. We couldn’t.
However, we made a mistake.
Somewhere during the discussions it was strongly recommended that we streamline our characters.
People wanted something simpler, more direct, more accessible.
We told them. “If you do this, you will lose all 200k subscribers. It is that significant.”
It was explained that we would gain more due to the marketing push and relaunch.
So, we pushed forward.
If I remember the dates correctly, we did our NGE conversion in 2-3 months of solid crunch. It was some of the heaviest crunch I’ve ever done.
We had an immovable date, and an insane set of features.
We were working in parallel, maintaining old code on the off chance that we would pull the plug on the implementation.
We launched, the marketing push failed, and we lost subscribers.
It was a misread at an organizational level. Marketing, Production, community. You name it.
Epoch grade f**kup.
But.
The f**kup was NOT the changes.
Let me say it again, louder, for those who do not get it.
THE f**kUP WAS NOT THE CHANGES.
Galaxies NGE made it more playable. I think it lost a lot of the Raphy goodness that makes MMOs work, and that was a profound loss.
But the general idea was sound.
The control scheme was a good idea.
Losing the character skill system was not.
But, that’s not the point.
The point, the f**kup, the mistake that we made, was answering an unasked question.
“Can you change an MMO drastically after it launches?”
Categorically, NO.
If we were to do it again, and wanted to make those types of changes, you have to make a new game.
Relaunch with a new title.
Or shut down Galaxies and relaunch for real.
You cannot change it at runtime.
BUT!
And this is a HUGE but.
Right as I left SOE, post NGE..
Galaxies was subscriber positive.
A few thousand, but it was a far cry from the 10k per month we were losing.
A lot of you were upset. A lot of you still seem to be upset. I’m sorry if you feel betrayed, or that we ruined something you liked.
But I’m proud of the work I and the rest of the team did. I’m proud of the choices we made, the direction we took. ALL of SWG.
JTL, NGE, Launch, Jedi f**kups. You name it.
We made mistakes. We made a LOT of mistakes. We crunched, we argued, we fired people, we hired people.
But we f**king launched a godd**ned game. We launched a SECOND succesful MMO (post-uo). We made a f**king amazing space game using the same f**king game engine, integrated action combat, interior spaceships and in 9 MOTHERf**kING MONTHS, all while running a succesful, cash positive product.
NGE was done in 3-4 months by a team of people. I am proud of the work that we did, even if I am torn about the end product.
So those who think it’s about blame or credit or who ruined what or how great it used to be when kids didn’t swear so much…
Take a deep breath and move on. Times change. Games don’t last forever.
Except UO. It’s still running. And I bet people are still pissed about some f**ked up code I wrote in 1997.
That, I am genuinely sorry for.
And Finally, a telling Anecdote that I think came from Gordon Walton originally.
A cancellation email from UO came in. A diatribe, really.
It want on and on about how shitty the game was, how it was the worst piece of crap he’d ever played.
So, someone called him to find out some information.
They asked how long he played for.
His answer?
2 years.
Correction you were a game designer and a poor one at that. You are in the soon to be drumed out of the industry catagory. You may now take your place among the other lying losers, that can't buy a job sweeping floors in the industry; Like David Bowman, and Brad McQuaid.
Amazing how history repeats itself:
After the Trammel flop in UO, the devs said and did exactly the same:
1: They claimed that the game was dying, and alterations HAD to be made (even though no charts have ever displayed this - UO never had a decline prior to Trammel)
2: They claimed that the original game could not be restored, the code didn't exist, so they couldn't do it even if they wanted to
Claiming that the original code doesn't exist is such bullshit, and an attempt to close the discussion before it even gets rolling, by killing all hope of a revert up-front.
Which is bullshit. At the time of UO:R, UO had 180k subscribers. If he told the story right, it would go: "At the time of UO:R, the game had 180k subscribers, shortly after that UO's steep increase in subscription numbers topped off forever".
One might wonder if he didn't exaggerate his claim that SWG was at 180-200k when they did the NGE as well (charts show that it was over 300k). I don't think this guy has a healthy relationship with truth.
I added some notes to this chart once:
http://www.mercenaries.ws/Subscriptions-mod.gif (original is located at http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html)
As can be seen NOT ONCE had UO seen a decline prior to UO:R. What exactly needed fixing? The only reason to why UO needed "fixing" was EQ.
EQ was in the fast lane and took over UO, and that was when they came up with the brilliant idea, that UO had to be fixed to compete.
The UO/EQ situation isn't much different from the SWG/WoW situation IMO. And it is noteworthy that the same guy was involved in both game wreckers.
http://rubenfield.com/?p=86
It Died on Nov 15 2006 , what remains is an Undead Version of the game. Well , I am the Van Helsing of MMOs and I have my stake and hammer at the ready for a quick dispatch of this cursed monster.I'm not sure it matters if the Code is still around. I mean, if you can't access it what's the damn point? This game is DEAD DEAD DEAD!!!
lol
I have a copy of SWG's original code if SOE wants it, yes, that's right, I still have the CD copy of the launch version.
Do you expect Marketing to tell Design what is a good game, what will make a success? Do you expect Management to do it?
When it comes to gameplay/game mechanics everyone listens to Design. It is that simple. It is their job.
Even going near blaming production, the lowest step on the ladder is just hilarious. You will get out of them exactly what you ask for. And if you put too big a crunch on them, you will get what you ask for in a poor shape.