the reason it was bleeding 10k members a month was because of the CU..... The Pre-cu version didnt even get below 200k subs. Where is the apology for the CU?
Playing: EVE Online Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2 KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
the reason it was bleeding 10k members a month was because of the CU..... The Pre-cu version didnt even get below 200k subs. Where is the apology for the CU?
The eula clearly sais online play may be subject to changes without notice at any time. Also you can not switch and bait that which you do not own as also the eula clearly states by agreeing to this eula you herby agree that you do not own this or any other virtual items within this game from soe and La.
That whole EULA argument is a palid excuse and it has been argued successfully that it does not apply to many of the circumstances that occured with the NGE. EVen the developer in question admits numerous times that it was WRONG. And even if by some small miracle, the EULA could in fact cover things like the Ranger Revamp ploy - the fact is (since moral concepts seem to be flying around here today) just because they have the right to do it - DOESN"T make it right.
That fact was reinforced with the irrefutable proof that is the difference between subscriptions of the PreCU and the NGE. SOE pulled their bait and switch - thousands upon thousands left. Their name becoming mud on forums and news releases everywhere.
As for the whole you don't own virtual items argument - SOE opened pandora's box with the ability to purchase items in game. That one will be working itself to a head soon enough when they implement it full on in their next mmo.
If SOE was ever charged with fraud over SWG I doubt the EULA would even be allowed into evidence. Most are so completely worthless as they are illegal contracts for all intents and purposes. Internet law is so new however that these things are allowed to pass. If it came down to it, however, it is doubtful that a judge would allow to be used as the EULA of SWG (and most EULA period) violate a number of consumer rights laws. The only possible hide that SOE could use is to say that they are a subsidary to a japanese company, and therefore must be tried in Japan. They wouldn't do this because they would get into even more trouble as EULA are not even considered valid in Japan if I remember my international law correctly. (It is possible I am wrong here please say anything if you have evidence of this)
SWG is like meeting the hottest chick of all time and then have her give you every STD in the book and then she dresses a monkey up like a baby sues for child support and the judge says yes
The eula clearly sais online play may be subject to changes without notice at any time. Also you can not switch and bait that which you do not own as also the eula clearly states by agreeing to this eula you herby agree that you do not own this or any other virtual items within this game from soe and La.
That whole EULA argument is a palid excuse and it has been argued successfully that it does not apply to many of the circumstances that occured with the NGE. EVen the developer in question admits numerous times that it was WRONG. And even if by some small miracle, the EULA could in fact cover things like the Ranger Revamp ploy - the fact is (since moral concepts seem to be flying around here today) just because they have the right to do it - DOESN"T make it right.
That fact was reinforced with the irrefutable proof that is the difference between subscriptions of the PreCU and the NGE. SOE pulled their bait and switch - thousands upon thousands left. Their name becoming mud on forums and news releases everywhere.
As for the whole you don't own virtual items argument - SOE opened pandora's box with the ability to purchase items in game. That one will be working itself to a head soon enough when they implement it full on in their next mmo.
If SOE was ever charged with fraud over SWG I doubt the EULA would even be allowed into evidence. Most are so completely worthless as they are illegal contracts for all intents and purposes. Internet law is so new however that these things are allowed to pass. If it came down to it, however, it is doubtful that a judge would allow to be used as the EULA of SWG (and most EULA period) violate a number of consumer rights laws. The only possible hide that SOE could use is to say that they are a subsidary to a japanese company, and therefore must be tried in Japan. They wouldn't do this because they would get into even more trouble as EULA are not even considered valid in Japan if I remember my international law correctly. (It is possible I am wrong here please say anything if you have evidence of this)
There is a fairly obvious reason why a EULA can't enter a court room..
When you have a contract (a eula is a click through contract more or less) you have a signature and proof of identity/age of the person agreeing to it.
Regardless of the text that says "you must be 18 to.." there is no attempt at enforcement from their (or whatever companies) end of things. They can't verify who accepted the EULA.
Every state in the country has a minimum age to be allowed to enter into a legally binding agreement. EULA would never enter court if they were being prosecuted for fraud regardless.
False advertising or selling a product under false pretense will NEVER be defended by a EULA.. its a criminal act regardless of any agreement they try to obtain with a consumer.. They don't have the ability to bypass State or Federal laws... Now if you tried to sue them for "changing your game" you might find a different answer.
Just my 2 cents added.. not that I claim to be any kind of legal expert. I do however, have a fairly good understanding of the general fraud concept..
In fact what I really wish is that I owned Sony stock because when some of the blatantly false (intended to show the product doing better than it was) statements were made.. I would have filed a complaint with the FTC so fast... my head would have spun. Promoting any false positive as a publicly traded company is seen as an attempt to lure investment under false pretense as well.. Which is why you don't let idiots make statements like some of them were at the time.. blah blah
*edited to add*
Oh and I wanted to say..
The reason that NO one mentions that UO went from 110k to 220k with UO:R is because.. it didn't.
December 1998 — Ultima Online achieves 100,000 users worldwide.
February 2000 — Ultima Online achieves 150,000 subscribers.
May 2000 — Renaissance. Ultima Online's second expansion marked the beginning of a new era in Britannia. With the splitting of the lands into the facets of Trammel and Felucca, players could choose their geography based on their play style.
March 2003 — Ultima Online reaches 250,000 subscribers.
^^ That was the peak which was THREE YEARS after UO:R
and if the ahole wants to argue here is my source:
I was one of the five marksman testers for the CURB. We never got to actually playtest anything...all we ever got was an advance look at some of the design concept documents, and a forum to discuss them on.
Wow, now thats something I didn't know. I thought there had been some playtesting involved.
Wouldn't happen to have any of those design concept documents still, would you? I would love to put them up in our file archives.
the CURB documents were included in biophilia's scrapbook (version 5.1)
Many thanks. Will go pay a visit to the community's unsung hero and his wonderful archive.
I don't suppose anyone has a link to just those documents? I downloaded the scrapbook and the thing is massive, nearly a gig, and my computer can't decompress it.
I was one of the five marksman testers for the CURB. We never got to actually playtest anything...all we ever got was an advance look at some of the design concept documents, and a forum to discuss them on.
Wow, now thats something I didn't know. I thought there had been some playtesting involved.
Wouldn't happen to have any of those design concept documents still, would you? I would love to put them up in our file archives.
Nope, no playtesting. I was one of the alpha "testers". it was mostly discussion, and the discussion and ideas sounded great - we were all excited. And then they released the CU - completely different from what had been discussed. It was really a shock. We had all spent time and energy on making the game good and they went and did their own development and design and released it anyway, regardless of what had been discussed.
::Ex-Pikeman Correspondent:: Kauri Player (and Pikeman) from July 2003 until NGE |combatUpgrade::alpha :: JTL::beta :: RotW::beta :: ToOW::beta|
I was one of the five marksman testers for the CURB. We never got to actually playtest anything...all we ever got was an advance look at some of the design concept documents, and a forum to discuss them on.
Wow, now thats something I didn't know. I thought there had been some playtesting involved.
Wouldn't happen to have any of those design concept documents still, would you? I would love to put them up in our file archives.
Nope, no playtesting. I was one of the alpha "testers". it was mostly discussion, and the discussion and ideas sounded great - we were all excited. And then they released the CU - completely different from what had been discussed. It was really a shock. We had all spent time and energy on making the game good and they went and did their own development and design and released it anyway, regardless of what had been discussed.
That to me signaled an important move away from working collaboratively with the playerbase. Marketting and management started calling the shots and pulling strings regardless of what players and developers said was wanted or workable. This wasted players time and developers time. A lot of good effort was chucked in the trash as people up the food chain decided to copy WoW. Apparently they didn't think they went far enough, and then opted for the NGE. Thing is, the CU actually went too far in the wrong direction, and the NGE, well that went beyond too far.
I have always maintained that the CU and NGE where not bad ideas.
They where the worst implemented pieces of code in the history of MMO Gaming
Here is the problem
New systems. 2 weeks testing in beta.
I supported the NGE and the CU. Neither system was remotely ready to be on production servers with paying customers. Hell the original game barely qualified as ready to be out of beta 3 months after launch.
Every single SOE Dev should take away the lesson every programmer should have learned on day 1. PROPERLY TEST YOUR CODE.
The fault lies in the producers and management at SOE for this. I would fire every manager and producer associated with allowing the NGE to be pushed live because they KNEW the code had bugs and didn't deliver on the "goals".
It is only up until about now most of what they wanted fixed is in the current release of the game. The development timeframe was unrealistic. The testing with actual players was 2 weeks? A two week half arsed beta? Without vetting your "beta tester". I mean I assume that some sort of alpha test occurred internally. Although I have my suspicions even this wasn't done fully.
These guys violated common sense rules meant to prevent unstable code from going into production. To actually be shocked at finding outrage among the community that used the software previous to that release is amazing incomptence.
I wouldn't hire a single SOE dev to write the junk programs we need. You don't respect testing. For that sin you deserve the grief you get.
I have always maintained that the CU and NGE where not bad ideas. They where the worst implemented pieces of code in the history of MMO Gaming Here is the problem New systems. 2 weeks testing in beta. I supported the NGE and the CU. Neither system was remotely ready to be on production servers with paying customers. Hell the original game barely qualified as ready to be out of beta 3 months after launch. Every single SOE Dev should take away the lesson every programmer should have learned on day 1. PROPERLY TEST YOUR CODE. The fault lies in the producers and management at SOE for this. I would fire every manager and producer associated with allowing the NGE to be pushed live because they KNEW the code had bugs and didn't deliver on the "goals". It is only up until about now most of what they wanted fixed is in the current release of the game. The development timeframe was unrealistic. The testing with actual players was 2 weeks? A two week half arsed beta? Without vetting your "beta tester". I mean I assume that some sort of alpha test occurred internally. Although I have my suspicions even this wasn't done fully. These guys violated common sense rules meant to prevent unstable code from going into production. To actually be shocked at finding outrage among the community that used the software previous to that release is amazing incomptence. I wouldn't hire a single SOE dev to write the junk programs we need. You don't respect testing. For that sin you deserve the grief you get.
This is far too common in any field where the technical is separate from marketing.
I worked for a small telephone company, and was responsible for ordering product from the local ILEC (Incubment Local Exchange Carrier). The baby bell that owns all the wire the CLEC (competitive local exchange carrier) needs to provide service to customers.
The marketing/sales guys were making promises to customers without even bothering to let me know that they had created a new product to sell and they did not consult any of the switchboard engineers, or me the ordering guy, to see if the product was even feasible.
BTW, in concept, this was a pretty good product that they were selling, one that had a great deal of potential.
Turns out the product they had promised to deliver in a matter of days required a bureaucratic process of months to actually bring to market, to include lots of time for the lawyers of the owners to go over the changes in the operating agreement in the contract with the ILEC that were needed...because totally new services had to be vetted and agreed to with the ILEC to provide these services to the customer.
This kind of crap where over promissing without bothering to check if it's doable happens all the time.
The devs were forced to disregard best practices to meet deadlines imposed on them by marketing clowns. Remember that the CU had to happen in time to coincide with the release of Ep III to theaters, and then ToOW and the NGE to coincide with the release of Ep III to DVD. Whether any of them were ready or not.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
This is the same guy who was a part of Raph Koster's team that created UO and classic SWG. It's funny some of you people are saying how stupid he is - when he was one of the people that created the games you all love so much. The truth is, and you would know this if you read his two posts, that it was a corporate directive to "change the game." He wanted to add the option to fight in FPS style, but thought it was a big mistake to remove the skill based system and classes. So get it right before you go off half cocked. He was an employee who worked on a huge IP (Star Wars) for a huge faceless corporation. You act like he had any real choice. He told the corporate people something like, "if you remove the skill system and classes you will loose the rest of our subscribers." My favorite subject has always been history. But I've never been into "re-written" history.
It's too bad he failed on ALL fronts. SWG does not and never has had FPS combat. All they did was speed up the same combat we always had by 5X, giving you the illusion of something resembling FPS combat...
Oooops, but they took away a bar and basically just simplified the combat to click and shoot, they basically removed melee combat outside of Jedi, which they destroyed the animations for.
I have no personal ill-feelings for any of the developers, but they really did code one heaping pile of crap called the NGE. It is the most poorly built game I have had the misfortune of playing and it baffles me how they thought it was fun, at any point. The game just flat sucks. It would have sucked and failed miserably if the Pre-CU had never existed.
Why play this when you can play a much better version in WoW?
SOE doesn't give a crap about SWG anymore. The development team couldn't code their way out of a paperbag, and I find it truly funny that some of you willingly pay to play this game. I think it's pathetic actually.
I was one of the five marksman testers for the CURB. We never got to actually playtest anything...all we ever got was an advance look at some of the design concept documents, and a forum to discuss them on.
Wow, now thats something I didn't know. I thought there had been some playtesting involved.
Wouldn't happen to have any of those design concept documents still, would you? I would love to put them up in our file archives.
Nope, no playtesting. I was one of the alpha "testers". it was mostly discussion, and the discussion and ideas sounded great - we were all excited. And then they released the CU - completely different from what had been discussed. It was really a shock. We had all spent time and energy on making the game good and they went and did their own development and design and released it anyway, regardless of what had been discussed.
That to me signaled an important move away from working collaboratively with the playerbase. Marketting and management started calling the shots and pulling strings regardless of what players and developers said was wanted or workable. This wasted players time and developers time. A lot of good effort was chucked in the trash as people up the food chain decided to copy WoW. Apparently they didn't think they went far enough, and then opted for the NGE. Thing is, the CU actually went too far in the wrong direction, and the NGE, well that went beyond too far.
One could argue that it was when they ignored the Beta Testers and launched the game, but I think there is an early example of the devs turning their backs on listening to the players prior to them ignoring the CURB and creating the combat upgrade.
When they decided to put almost the entire live team onto the Jump to Light Speed expansion even when all the polls and surveys they did showed the majority of the players wanted the combat upgrade first and they promised to do that before an expansion. I think marketing and management at SOE are pretty much the same thing which is why all their games are rushed out pieces of crap.
One of the things going on in the post JTL/preCU period was SOE placing a great deal of emphasis, at least in terms of PR, on player input into game changes.
Part of the problem was that from the time Koster was kicked upstairs and out of the way tot he time Gordon Walton (SOE Tyrant) was brought in, there didn't seem to be any vision of where the game was going. The Cries of Alderaan event wound down and was not replaced as a focus for player energy, the hologrind seemed to be the only activity that was taking place.
One of the things WoW is quite good at is creating player events to channel player activity in certain directions. There are the periodic holiday related activities focused on seasonal changes, there are the various world events that add flavor to the world in terms of the lore. SWG launched with those sorts of things in mind, but apparently those activities fell out of favor for some reason because they were way more concerned not with the game (and playerbase) they had but with some illusory audience out there.
So, as part of this quest for the illusory audience, they started actively ignoring the audience they had.
The alpha test group started out with great enthusiasm. I recall a lot of posting on the various profession boards about what players wanted the alpha testers to convey to the developers. Lots of excitement there. Then after the initial rush of excitement right after JTL published, over time the excitement faded as nothing happened. We among the alpha testers were very busy discussing the design documents we got a chance to view, but we were all under NDA and could not discuss them on the public boards. We were all eagerly awaiting the launching of the sandbox server where we could try out the new concepts that were being discussed...but that never happened. Probably because the new concepts we (and the correspondants before us) were shown were trashed in favor of the CU, which was very different from what we'd been exposed to.
The principle problem with the CU was that rigid levels, which had never even been broached as a possiblity on the alpha testing boards, were foisted onto TC with absolutely no notice whatsoever. I mean, one day, I got an email from the marksman correspondant saying that he was just told that the CU was on TC and I should try to login there to see what the changes were. The alpha testers never saw the CU before the CU was put on TC.
The entire "in concept/in development/in testing" cycle that was supposed to be ironclad policy was, and not for the first time, totally ignored as changes were made to the game.
These guys wondered why the players were so pissed, and why they started bleeding subs at increasing rates.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
One of the things going on in the post JTL/preCU period was SOE placing a great deal of emphasis, at least in terms of PR, on player input into game changes. Part of the problem was that from the time Koster was kicked upstairs and out of the way tot he time Gordon Walton (SOE Tyrant) was brought in, there didn't seem to be any vision of where the game was going. The Cries of Alderaan event wound down and was not replaced as a focus for player energy, the hologrind seemed to be the only activity that was taking place.
I agree. There wasn't a vision in place for where to take the game. I believe they lost sight of the fact that you have to be able to do multiple things at once when you're developing a live MMO. You have to keep balancing/fixing but you also have to keep bringing in new content. They dropped the ball in that regard (and many others). They became too focused on revamping professions.
Until you cancel your subscription, you are only helping to continue the cycle of mediocrity.
The principle problem with the CU was that rigid levels, which had never even been broached as a possiblity on the alpha testing boards, were foisted onto TC with absolutely no notice whatsoever. I mean, one day, I got an email from the marksman correspondant saying that he was just told that the CU was on TC and I should try to login there to see what the changes were. The alpha testers never saw the CU before the CU was put on TC. The entire "in concept/in development/in testing" cycle that was supposed to be ironclad policy was, and not for the first time, totally ignored as changes were made to the game. These guys wondered why the players were so pissed, and why they started bleeding subs at increasing rates.
Exactly my thoughts as well. It was a shock that suddenly they had the CU done and it was so extremely different from what we had all talked about and thought was going to happen. We never saw the CU until it was released.
::Ex-Pikeman Correspondent:: Kauri Player (and Pikeman) from July 2003 until NGE |combatUpgrade::alpha :: JTL::beta :: RotW::beta :: ToOW::beta|
The rigid level system of the CU fundamentally altered the nature of SWG. It was no longer an attempt at a virtual reality in which you could live a life in the Star Wars universe of your own choosing, creating your own story.
It was a game. A very obvious game with artificialities hard coded in to limit what you could do.
A game that stressed combat above any other activity. Where before it was quite possible for a dancer to be a Teras Kasi artist as well and make a contribution to a group, now that was totally forstalled due to the rigidity of the combat level system...because you could not reach level 80 unless you had two combat masteries, or you were a Jedi with most of your skill points invested in one or more combat professions, and in truth, only one other for the most part. I spent most of my Jedi time preNGE as a hybrid half Jedi half CH.
So much of your viablity in combat was tied directly to level...not to mention what content you could take on, due to the absolutely oppressive combat mulitplier system that made someone with one combat mastery and a mastery of a crafting or entertainer discipline 26 levels below a dual combat mastery player.
The CU severely limited your freedom to do what you wanted to do with your avatar.
Which might be fine for the WoW crowd, who wanted content handed to them on a platter, but was very confining to those of us who had been around since launch and grew used to calculating how to drop skills to aquire new ones to evolve our character in new ways to explore a much broader world than nine rigid classes allowed.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
You for the most part didn't need armor in the CU days. I didn't bother wearing any most times out with a ranged weapon. Only PvP and some high level PvE even required you to think for 2 seconds in a group action.
SWG never developed a team structure that encouraged a group to mix and match skills and be forced to work together to accomplish goals. You could play while reading a book.
I agree that pre-cu was not the "be all" of gaming.
It still is better than any game I have played in terms of giving a crap about my character which is the only reason you keep playing after a certain amount of time.
WoW couldn't keep me even vaguely interested in my character.
I miss my toon and a structure that encouraged you to develop a character.
I have always maintained that the CU and NGE where not bad ideas. They where the worst implemented pieces of code in the history of MMO Gaming Here is the problem New systems. 2 weeks testing in beta. I supported the NGE and the CU. Neither system was remotely ready to be on production servers with paying customers. Hell the original game barely qualified as ready to be out of beta 3 months after launch. Every single SOE Dev should take away the lesson every programmer should have learned on day 1. PROPERLY TEST YOUR CODE. The fault lies in the producers and management at SOE for this. I would fire every manager and producer associated with allowing the NGE to be pushed live because they KNEW the code had bugs and didn't deliver on the "goals". It is only up until about now most of what they wanted fixed is in the current release of the game. The development timeframe was unrealistic. The testing with actual players was 2 weeks? A two week half arsed beta? Without vetting your "beta tester". I mean I assume that some sort of alpha test occurred internally. Although I have my suspicions even this wasn't done fully. These guys violated common sense rules meant to prevent unstable code from going into production. To actually be shocked at finding outrage among the community that used the software previous to that release is amazing incomptence. I wouldn't hire a single SOE dev to write the junk programs we need. You don't respect testing. For that sin you deserve the grief you get.
This is far too common in any field where the technical is separate from marketing.
I worked for a small telephone company, and was responsible for ordering product from the local ILEC (Incubment Local Exchange Carrier). The baby bell that owns all the wire the CLEC (competitive local exchange carrier) needs to provide service to customers.
The marketing/sales guys were making promises to customers without even bothering to let me know that they had created a new product to sell and they did not consult any of the switchboard engineers, or me the ordering guy, to see if the product was even feasible.
BTW, in concept, this was a pretty good product that they were selling, one that had a great deal of potential.
Turns out the product they had promised to deliver in a matter of days required a bureaucratic process of months to actually bring to market, to include lots of time for the lawyers of the owners to go over the changes in the operating agreement in the contract with the ILEC that were needed...because totally new services had to be vetted and agreed to with the ILEC to provide these services to the customer.
This kind of crap where over promissing without bothering to check if it's doable happens all the time.
The devs were forced to disregard best practices to meet deadlines imposed on them by marketing clowns. Remember that the CU had to happen in time to coincide with the release of Ep III to theaters, and then ToOW and the NGE to coincide with the release of Ep III to DVD. Whether any of them were ready or not.
Got to agree. I don't always like the vets that ran off and piss and moan..
But I wish SOE had a set of balls like Blizzard did and would have told LEC that the game goes live when the game is ready and not before.
If they had tested the CU a few more weeks....probably wouldn't have caused as may issues as it did.
As for the NGE in 2005.....meh...its better now than it was then.
You guys crack me up... How were the CU and the NGE good ideas? Explain that one to me.
Neither one was worth a crap to start off with, the CU got better towards the end, the NGE is better than it was but will never be good, it can't be good, it's too fatally flawed.
Did you mean the need for a combat revamp was good? I agree with that. Pre-CU combat was too stale and slow. It never felt like combat. So I agree it needed an upgrade. However, what we got wasn't just an upgrade to the combat of SWG.
Even the CU changed the foundation of the game enough to impact the other GREAT parts of SWG negatively.
SWG has something unique to WoW and EQ, it had a great skill-system. I think it was even better tha UO, but that's just my opinion. That didn't need a revamping at all. People complained about balance, guess what, people STILL complain about balance. There will always be balance issues with games, especially complex ones. The NGE hasn't helped that much, if at all.
So SOE removes the skill-system, which was rich and complex and puts in this crap level/class regurgitation. The professions are just lame. Melee combat is removed aside from Jedi. Crafters are nerfed and decay is removed as well.
So NO, the ideas of the CU and the NGE were NOT good ones. The idea of a COMBAT REVAMP was. If SOE spends the year it spent developing the CU and the NGE simply working on a combat revamp that worked with the existing systems, SWG is alive and thriving today, and Obriak, Gutboy, and ummax are off playing EQ or WoW.
The CU and the NGE were aweful attempts at innovation. A good idea would have been to fire the brainchild behind either of them on the spot. A 12 year old kid could come up with better solutions than those.
Originally posted by hipiap Originally posted by SioBabble Originally posted by haxxjoo I have always maintained that the CU and NGE where not bad ideas. They where the worst implemented pieces of code in the history of MMO Gaming Here is the problem New systems. 2 weeks testing in beta. I supported the NGE and the CU. Neither system was remotely ready to be on production servers with paying customers. Hell the original game barely qualified as ready to be out of beta 3 months after launch. Every single SOE Dev should take away the lesson every programmer should have learned on day 1. PROPERLY TEST YOUR CODE. The fault lies in the producers and management at SOE for this. I would fire every manager and producer associated with allowing the NGE to be pushed live because they KNEW the code had bugs and didn't deliver on the "goals". It is only up until about now most of what they wanted fixed is in the current release of the game. The development timeframe was unrealistic. The testing with actual players was 2 weeks? A two week half arsed beta? Without vetting your "beta tester". I mean I assume that some sort of alpha test occurred internally. Although I have my suspicions even this wasn't done fully. These guys violated common sense rules meant to prevent unstable code from going into production. To actually be shocked at finding outrage among the community that used the software previous to that release is amazing incomptence. I wouldn't hire a single SOE dev to write the junk programs we need. You don't respect testing. For that sin you deserve the grief you get.
This is far too common in any field where the technical is separate from marketing. I worked for a small telephone company, and was responsible for ordering product from the local ILEC (Incubment Local Exchange Carrier). The baby bell that owns all the wire the CLEC (competitive local exchange carrier) needs to provide service to customers. The marketing/sales guys were making promises to customers without even bothering to let me know that they had created a new product to sell and they did not consult any of the switchboard engineers, or me the ordering guy, to see if the product was even feasible. BTW, in concept, this was a pretty good product that they were selling, one that had a great deal of potential. Turns out the product they had promised to deliver in a matter of days required a bureaucratic process of months to actually bring to market, to include lots of time for the lawyers of the owners to go over the changes in the operating agreement in the contract with the ILEC that were needed...because totally new services had to be vetted and agreed to with the ILEC to provide these services to the customer. This kind of crap where over promissing without bothering to check if it's doable happens all the time. The devs were forced to disregard best practices to meet deadlines imposed on them by marketing clowns. Remember that the CU had to happen in time to coincide with the release of Ep III to theaters, and then ToOW and the NGE to coincide with the release of Ep III to DVD. Whether any of them were ready or not.
Got to agree. I don't always like the vets that ran off and piss and moan..
But I wish SOE had a set of balls like Blizzard did and would have told LEC that the game goes live when the game is ready and not before.
If they had tested the CU a few more weeks....probably wouldn't have caused as may issues as it did.
As for the NGE in 2005.....meh...its better now than it was then.
Where is the evidence that LA forced SOE to launch the game late but not ready. You wish they had the balls to violate the contract they signed? Why didn't they have the ability to put the money and manpower into it to MAKE IT READY. It doesn't take balls to blow deadlines -- all it takes is ineptitude.
Where is the evidence that LA forced SOE to launch the game late but not ready. You wish they had the balls to violate the contract they signed? Why didn't they have the ability to put the money and manpower into it to MAKE IT READY. It doesn't take balls to blow deadlines -- all it takes is ineptitude.
Without knowing more about it, it's difficult to say who was inept here. I'll grant you that it appears that SOE as the developer didn't put enough resources into the game at launch. The problems with the database for example, that resulted in the infamous "melon nerf" only a month or so after launch indicate that either the game was not properly resourced, or the design was just too ambitious for the resources allocated.
Either way it looks a lot like SOE tried to do things somewhat "on the cheap" and got bit.
Also, we've got plenty of evidence to conclude that SOE's project management of SWG was less than stellar. Raph Koster may be a pretty bright design, concept, and theory guy, but I've seen little evidence that he's also a brilliant project manager. He may not have had much help in that area from SOE.
But another aspect of the problem was going gold before it was ready. In part this was because SWG had missed a previous deadline and they were not eager to miss another one. Also in part is that LA is a greedy outfit that has absolutely no scruples about pushing bantha poodoo in a box marked "Star Wars" on the public. Of course SOE doesn't have a very good reputation in this area, either, what with the scandals surrounding EQ expansions.
Another aspect to consider is that with software projects often throwing more people and money at the project is likely to be no help at all, and perhaps harmful to the effort.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
I was one of the five marksman testers for the CURB. We never got to actually playtest anything...all we ever got was an advance look at some of the design concept documents, and a forum to discuss them on.
Wow, now thats something I didn't know. I thought there had been some playtesting involved.
Wouldn't happen to have any of those design concept documents still, would you? I would love to put them up in our file archives.
the CURB documents were included in biophilia's scrapbook (version 5.1)
Many thanks. Will go pay a visit to the community's unsung hero and his wonderful archive.
I don't suppose anyone has a link to just those documents? I downloaded the scrapbook and the thing is massive, nearly a gig, and my computer can't decompress it.
Comments
LOL! Love That Jest0r !!!1111ONEONE!!!!!ELEVEN!!!!!
By the way, is the next Rodo Report going to comment on the Rubenfeld Blog?
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the reason it was bleeding 10k members a month was because of the CU..... The Pre-cu version didnt even get below 200k subs. Where is the apology for the CU?
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
Excellent point.
That whole EULA argument is a palid excuse and it has been argued successfully that it does not apply to many of the circumstances that occured with the NGE. EVen the developer in question admits numerous times that it was WRONG. And even if by some small miracle, the EULA could in fact cover things like the Ranger Revamp ploy - the fact is (since moral concepts seem to be flying around here today) just because they have the right to do it - DOESN"T make it right.
That fact was reinforced with the irrefutable proof that is the difference between subscriptions of the PreCU and the NGE. SOE pulled their bait and switch - thousands upon thousands left. Their name becoming mud on forums and news releases everywhere.
As for the whole you don't own virtual items argument - SOE opened pandora's box with the ability to purchase items in game. That one will be working itself to a head soon enough when they implement it full on in their next mmo.
If SOE was ever charged with fraud over SWG I doubt the EULA would even be allowed into evidence. Most are so completely worthless as they are illegal contracts for all intents and purposes. Internet law is so new however that these things are allowed to pass. If it came down to it, however, it is doubtful that a judge would allow to be used as the EULA of SWG (and most EULA period) violate a number of consumer rights laws. The only possible hide that SOE could use is to say that they are a subsidary to a japanese company, and therefore must be tried in Japan. They wouldn't do this because they would get into even more trouble as EULA are not even considered valid in Japan if I remember my international law correctly. (It is possible I am wrong here please say anything if you have evidence of this)
SWG is like meeting the hottest chick of all time and then have her give you every STD in the book and then she dresses a monkey up like a baby sues for child support and the judge says yes
That whole EULA argument is a palid excuse and it has been argued successfully that it does not apply to many of the circumstances that occured with the NGE. EVen the developer in question admits numerous times that it was WRONG. And even if by some small miracle, the EULA could in fact cover things like the Ranger Revamp ploy - the fact is (since moral concepts seem to be flying around here today) just because they have the right to do it - DOESN"T make it right.
That fact was reinforced with the irrefutable proof that is the difference between subscriptions of the PreCU and the NGE. SOE pulled their bait and switch - thousands upon thousands left. Their name becoming mud on forums and news releases everywhere.
As for the whole you don't own virtual items argument - SOE opened pandora's box with the ability to purchase items in game. That one will be working itself to a head soon enough when they implement it full on in their next mmo.
If SOE was ever charged with fraud over SWG I doubt the EULA would even be allowed into evidence. Most are so completely worthless as they are illegal contracts for all intents and purposes. Internet law is so new however that these things are allowed to pass. If it came down to it, however, it is doubtful that a judge would allow to be used as the EULA of SWG (and most EULA period) violate a number of consumer rights laws. The only possible hide that SOE could use is to say that they are a subsidary to a japanese company, and therefore must be tried in Japan. They wouldn't do this because they would get into even more trouble as EULA are not even considered valid in Japan if I remember my international law correctly. (It is possible I am wrong here please say anything if you have evidence of this)
There is a fairly obvious reason why a EULA can't enter a court room..
When you have a contract (a eula is a click through contract more or less) you have a signature and proof of identity/age of the person agreeing to it.
Regardless of the text that says "you must be 18 to.." there is no attempt at enforcement from their (or whatever companies) end of things. They can't verify who accepted the EULA.
Every state in the country has a minimum age to be allowed to enter into a legally binding agreement. EULA would never enter court if they were being prosecuted for fraud regardless.
False advertising or selling a product under false pretense will NEVER be defended by a EULA.. its a criminal act regardless of any agreement they try to obtain with a consumer.. They don't have the ability to bypass State or Federal laws... Now if you tried to sue them for "changing your game" you might find a different answer.
Just my 2 cents added.. not that I claim to be any kind of legal expert. I do however, have a fairly good understanding of the general fraud concept..
In fact what I really wish is that I owned Sony stock because when some of the blatantly false (intended to show the product doing better than it was) statements were made.. I would have filed a complaint with the FTC so fast... my head would have spun. Promoting any false positive as a publicly traded company is seen as an attempt to lure investment under false pretense as well.. Which is why you don't let idiots make statements like some of them were at the time.. blah blah
*edited to add*
Oh and I wanted to say..
The reason that NO one mentions that UO went from 110k to 220k with UO:R is because.. it didn't.
December 1998 — Ultima Online achieves 100,000 users worldwide.
February 2000 — Ultima Online achieves 150,000 subscribers.
May 2000 — Renaissance. Ultima Online's second expansion marked the beginning of a new era in Britannia. With the splitting of the lands into the facets of Trammel and Felucca, players could choose their geography based on their play style.
March 2003 — Ultima Online reaches 250,000 subscribers.
^^ That was the peak which was THREE YEARS after UO:R
and if the ahole wants to argue here is my source:
http://www.uo.com/newsletters/2003sept/sept2003nl.html
Direct quote from him:
"Nobody acknowledges that after Renaissance, UO’s numbers rose from
110k to 220k."
Wow, now thats something I didn't know. I thought there had been some playtesting involved.
Wouldn't happen to have any of those design concept documents still, would you? I would love to put them up in our file archives.
the CURB documents were included in biophilia's scrapbook (version 5.1)
Many thanks. Will go pay a visit to the community's unsung hero and his wonderful archive.
I don't suppose anyone has a link to just those documents? I downloaded the scrapbook and the thing is massive, nearly a gig, and my computer can't decompress it.
http://mmo-hell.blogspot.com/
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/rejad
Wow, now thats something I didn't know. I thought there had been some playtesting involved.
Wouldn't happen to have any of those design concept documents still, would you? I would love to put them up in our file archives.
Nope, no playtesting. I was one of the alpha "testers". it was mostly discussion, and the discussion and ideas sounded great - we were all excited. And then they released the CU - completely different from what had been discussed. It was really a shock. We had all spent time and energy on making the game good and they went and did their own development and design and released it anyway, regardless of what had been discussed.
::Ex-Pikeman Correspondent::
Kauri Player (and Pikeman) from July 2003 until NGE
|combatUpgrade::alpha :: JTL::beta :: RotW::beta :: ToOW::beta|
Wow, now thats something I didn't know. I thought there had been some playtesting involved.
Wouldn't happen to have any of those design concept documents still, would you? I would love to put them up in our file archives.
Nope, no playtesting. I was one of the alpha "testers". it was mostly discussion, and the discussion and ideas sounded great - we were all excited. And then they released the CU - completely different from what had been discussed. It was really a shock. We had all spent time and energy on making the game good and they went and did their own development and design and released it anyway, regardless of what had been discussed.
That to me signaled an important move away from working collaboratively with the playerbase. Marketting and management started calling the shots and pulling strings regardless of what players and developers said was wanted or workable. This wasted players time and developers time. A lot of good effort was chucked in the trash as people up the food chain decided to copy WoW. Apparently they didn't think they went far enough, and then opted for the NGE. Thing is, the CU actually went too far in the wrong direction, and the NGE, well that went beyond too far.
I have always maintained that the CU and NGE where not bad ideas.
They where the worst implemented pieces of code in the history of MMO Gaming
Here is the problem
New systems. 2 weeks testing in beta.
I supported the NGE and the CU. Neither system was remotely ready to be on production servers with paying customers. Hell the original game barely qualified as ready to be out of beta 3 months after launch.
Every single SOE Dev should take away the lesson every programmer should have learned on day 1. PROPERLY TEST YOUR CODE.
The fault lies in the producers and management at SOE for this. I would fire every manager and producer associated with allowing the NGE to be pushed live because they KNEW the code had bugs and didn't deliver on the "goals".
It is only up until about now most of what they wanted fixed is in the current release of the game. The development timeframe was unrealistic. The testing with actual players was 2 weeks? A two week half arsed beta? Without vetting your "beta tester". I mean I assume that some sort of alpha test occurred internally. Although I have my suspicions even this wasn't done fully.
These guys violated common sense rules meant to prevent unstable code from going into production. To actually be shocked at finding outrage among the community that used the software previous to that release is amazing incomptence.
I wouldn't hire a single SOE dev to write the junk programs we need. You don't respect testing. For that sin you deserve the grief you get.
This is far too common in any field where the technical is separate from marketing.
I worked for a small telephone company, and was responsible for ordering product from the local ILEC (Incubment Local Exchange Carrier). The baby bell that owns all the wire the CLEC (competitive local exchange carrier) needs to provide service to customers.
The marketing/sales guys were making promises to customers without even bothering to let me know that they had created a new product to sell and they did not consult any of the switchboard engineers, or me the ordering guy, to see if the product was even feasible.
BTW, in concept, this was a pretty good product that they were selling, one that had a great deal of potential.
Turns out the product they had promised to deliver in a matter of days required a bureaucratic process of months to actually bring to market, to include lots of time for the lawyers of the owners to go over the changes in the operating agreement in the contract with the ILEC that were needed...because totally new services had to be vetted and agreed to with the ILEC to provide these services to the customer.
This kind of crap where over promissing without bothering to check if it's doable happens all the time.
The devs were forced to disregard best practices to meet deadlines imposed on them by marketing clowns. Remember that the CU had to happen in time to coincide with the release of Ep III to theaters, and then ToOW and the NGE to coincide with the release of Ep III to DVD. Whether any of them were ready or not.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
It's too bad he failed on ALL fronts. SWG does not and never has had FPS combat. All they did was speed up the same combat we always had by 5X, giving you the illusion of something resembling FPS combat...
Oooops, but they took away a bar and basically just simplified the combat to click and shoot, they basically removed melee combat outside of Jedi, which they destroyed the animations for.
I have no personal ill-feelings for any of the developers, but they really did code one heaping pile of crap called the NGE. It is the most poorly built game I have had the misfortune of playing and it baffles me how they thought it was fun, at any point. The game just flat sucks. It would have sucked and failed miserably if the Pre-CU had never existed.
Why play this when you can play a much better version in WoW?
SOE doesn't give a crap about SWG anymore. The development team couldn't code their way out of a paperbag, and I find it truly funny that some of you willingly pay to play this game. I think it's pathetic actually.
Wow, now thats something I didn't know. I thought there had been some playtesting involved.
Wouldn't happen to have any of those design concept documents still, would you? I would love to put them up in our file archives.
Nope, no playtesting. I was one of the alpha "testers". it was mostly discussion, and the discussion and ideas sounded great - we were all excited. And then they released the CU - completely different from what had been discussed. It was really a shock. We had all spent time and energy on making the game good and they went and did their own development and design and released it anyway, regardless of what had been discussed.
That to me signaled an important move away from working collaboratively with the playerbase. Marketting and management started calling the shots and pulling strings regardless of what players and developers said was wanted or workable. This wasted players time and developers time. A lot of good effort was chucked in the trash as people up the food chain decided to copy WoW. Apparently they didn't think they went far enough, and then opted for the NGE. Thing is, the CU actually went too far in the wrong direction, and the NGE, well that went beyond too far.
One could argue that it was when they ignored the Beta Testers and launched the game, but I think there is an early example of the devs turning their backs on listening to the players prior to them ignoring the CURB and creating the combat upgrade.
When they decided to put almost the entire live team onto the Jump to Light Speed expansion even when all the polls and surveys they did showed the majority of the players wanted the combat upgrade first and they promised to do that before an expansion. I think marketing and management at SOE are pretty much the same thing which is why all their games are rushed out pieces of crap.
One of the things going on in the post JTL/preCU period was SOE placing a great deal of emphasis, at least in terms of PR, on player input into game changes.
Part of the problem was that from the time Koster was kicked upstairs and out of the way tot he time Gordon Walton (SOE Tyrant) was brought in, there didn't seem to be any vision of where the game was going. The Cries of Alderaan event wound down and was not replaced as a focus for player energy, the hologrind seemed to be the only activity that was taking place.
One of the things WoW is quite good at is creating player events to channel player activity in certain directions. There are the periodic holiday related activities focused on seasonal changes, there are the various world events that add flavor to the world in terms of the lore. SWG launched with those sorts of things in mind, but apparently those activities fell out of favor for some reason because they were way more concerned not with the game (and playerbase) they had but with some illusory audience out there.
So, as part of this quest for the illusory audience, they started actively ignoring the audience they had.
The alpha test group started out with great enthusiasm. I recall a lot of posting on the various profession boards about what players wanted the alpha testers to convey to the developers. Lots of excitement there. Then after the initial rush of excitement right after JTL published, over time the excitement faded as nothing happened. We among the alpha testers were very busy discussing the design documents we got a chance to view, but we were all under NDA and could not discuss them on the public boards. We were all eagerly awaiting the launching of the sandbox server where we could try out the new concepts that were being discussed...but that never happened. Probably because the new concepts we (and the correspondants before us) were shown were trashed in favor of the CU, which was very different from what we'd been exposed to.
The principle problem with the CU was that rigid levels, which had never even been broached as a possiblity on the alpha testing boards, were foisted onto TC with absolutely no notice whatsoever. I mean, one day, I got an email from the marksman correspondant saying that he was just told that the CU was on TC and I should try to login there to see what the changes were. The alpha testers never saw the CU before the CU was put on TC.
The entire "in concept/in development/in testing" cycle that was supposed to be ironclad policy was, and not for the first time, totally ignored as changes were made to the game.
These guys wondered why the players were so pissed, and why they started bleeding subs at increasing rates.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
I agree. There wasn't a vision in place for where to take the game. I believe they lost sight of the fact that you have to be able to do multiple things at once when you're developing a live MMO. You have to keep balancing/fixing but you also have to keep bringing in new content. They dropped the ball in that regard (and many others). They became too focused on revamping professions.
Until you cancel your subscription, you are only helping to continue the cycle of mediocrity.
put options, find out who profited from the mass cancellations, if it was smedley and co.. they would be in big doo doo.
Exactly my thoughts as well. It was a shock that suddenly they had the CU done and it was so extremely different from what we had all talked about and thought was going to happen. We never saw the CU until it was released.
::Ex-Pikeman Correspondent::
Kauri Player (and Pikeman) from July 2003 until NGE
|combatUpgrade::alpha :: JTL::beta :: RotW::beta :: ToOW::beta|
The rigid level system of the CU fundamentally altered the nature of SWG. It was no longer an attempt at a virtual reality in which you could live a life in the Star Wars universe of your own choosing, creating your own story.
It was a game. A very obvious game with artificialities hard coded in to limit what you could do.
A game that stressed combat above any other activity. Where before it was quite possible for a dancer to be a Teras Kasi artist as well and make a contribution to a group, now that was totally forstalled due to the rigidity of the combat level system...because you could not reach level 80 unless you had two combat masteries, or you were a Jedi with most of your skill points invested in one or more combat professions, and in truth, only one other for the most part. I spent most of my Jedi time preNGE as a hybrid half Jedi half CH.
So much of your viablity in combat was tied directly to level...not to mention what content you could take on, due to the absolutely oppressive combat mulitplier system that made someone with one combat mastery and a mastery of a crafting or entertainer discipline 26 levels below a dual combat mastery player.
The CU severely limited your freedom to do what you wanted to do with your avatar.
Which might be fine for the WoW crowd, who wanted content handed to them on a platter, but was very confining to those of us who had been around since launch and grew used to calculating how to drop skills to aquire new ones to evolve our character in new ways to explore a much broader world than nine rigid classes allowed.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
You for the most part didn't need armor in the CU days. I didn't bother wearing any most times out with a ranged weapon. Only PvP and some high level PvE even required you to think for 2 seconds in a group action.
SWG never developed a team structure that encouraged a group to mix and match skills and be forced to work together to accomplish goals. You could play while reading a book.
I agree that pre-cu was not the "be all" of gaming.
It still is better than any game I have played in terms of giving a crap about my character which is the only reason you keep playing after a certain amount of time.
WoW couldn't keep me even vaguely interested in my character.
I miss my toon and a structure that encouraged you to develop a character.
This is far too common in any field where the technical is separate from marketing.
I worked for a small telephone company, and was responsible for ordering product from the local ILEC (Incubment Local Exchange Carrier). The baby bell that owns all the wire the CLEC (competitive local exchange carrier) needs to provide service to customers.
The marketing/sales guys were making promises to customers without even bothering to let me know that they had created a new product to sell and they did not consult any of the switchboard engineers, or me the ordering guy, to see if the product was even feasible.
BTW, in concept, this was a pretty good product that they were selling, one that had a great deal of potential.
Turns out the product they had promised to deliver in a matter of days required a bureaucratic process of months to actually bring to market, to include lots of time for the lawyers of the owners to go over the changes in the operating agreement in the contract with the ILEC that were needed...because totally new services had to be vetted and agreed to with the ILEC to provide these services to the customer.
This kind of crap where over promissing without bothering to check if it's doable happens all the time.
The devs were forced to disregard best practices to meet deadlines imposed on them by marketing clowns. Remember that the CU had to happen in time to coincide with the release of Ep III to theaters, and then ToOW and the NGE to coincide with the release of Ep III to DVD. Whether any of them were ready or not.
Got to agree. I don't always like the vets that ran off and piss and moan..
But I wish SOE had a set of balls like Blizzard did and would have told LEC that the game goes live when the game is ready and not before.
If they had tested the CU a few more weeks....probably wouldn't have caused as may issues as it did.
As for the NGE in 2005.....meh...its better now than it was then.
MMO History: 2528 days in SW:G
You guys crack me up... How were the CU and the NGE good ideas? Explain that one to me.
Neither one was worth a crap to start off with, the CU got better towards the end, the NGE is better than it was but will never be good, it can't be good, it's too fatally flawed.
Did you mean the need for a combat revamp was good? I agree with that. Pre-CU combat was too stale and slow. It never felt like combat. So I agree it needed an upgrade. However, what we got wasn't just an upgrade to the combat of SWG.
Even the CU changed the foundation of the game enough to impact the other GREAT parts of SWG negatively.
SWG has something unique to WoW and EQ, it had a great skill-system. I think it was even better tha UO, but that's just my opinion. That didn't need a revamping at all. People complained about balance, guess what, people STILL complain about balance. There will always be balance issues with games, especially complex ones. The NGE hasn't helped that much, if at all.
So SOE removes the skill-system, which was rich and complex and puts in this crap level/class regurgitation. The professions are just lame. Melee combat is removed aside from Jedi. Crafters are nerfed and decay is removed as well.
So NO, the ideas of the CU and the NGE were NOT good ones. The idea of a COMBAT REVAMP was. If SOE spends the year it spent developing the CU and the NGE simply working on a combat revamp that worked with the existing systems, SWG is alive and thriving today, and Obriak, Gutboy, and ummax are off playing EQ or WoW.
The CU and the NGE were aweful attempts at innovation. A good idea would have been to fire the brainchild behind either of them on the spot. A 12 year old kid could come up with better solutions than those.
Tecmo Bowl.
The whole game was broken from the gitgo, this dead horse has been flogged way too long.
This is far too common in any field where the technical is separate from marketing.
I worked for a small telephone company, and was responsible for ordering product from the local ILEC (Incubment Local Exchange Carrier). The baby bell that owns all the wire the CLEC (competitive local exchange carrier) needs to provide service to customers.
The marketing/sales guys were making promises to customers without even bothering to let me know that they had created a new product to sell and they did not consult any of the switchboard engineers, or me the ordering guy, to see if the product was even feasible.
BTW, in concept, this was a pretty good product that they were selling, one that had a great deal of potential.
Turns out the product they had promised to deliver in a matter of days required a bureaucratic process of months to actually bring to market, to include lots of time for the lawyers of the owners to go over the changes in the operating agreement in the contract with the ILEC that were needed...because totally new services had to be vetted and agreed to with the ILEC to provide these services to the customer.
This kind of crap where over promissing without bothering to check if it's doable happens all the time.
The devs were forced to disregard best practices to meet deadlines imposed on them by marketing clowns. Remember that the CU had to happen in time to coincide with the release of Ep III to theaters, and then ToOW and the NGE to coincide with the release of Ep III to DVD. Whether any of them were ready or not.
Got to agree. I don't always like the vets that ran off and piss and moan..
But I wish SOE had a set of balls like Blizzard did and would have told LEC that the game goes live when the game is ready and not before.
If they had tested the CU a few more weeks....probably wouldn't have caused as may issues as it did.
As for the NGE in 2005.....meh...its better now than it was then.
Where is the evidence that LA forced SOE to launch the game late but not ready. You wish they had the balls to violate the contract they signed? Why didn't they have the ability to put the money and manpower into it to MAKE IT READY. It doesn't take balls to blow deadlines -- all it takes is ineptitude.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Well based on that well-reasoned argument how could anybody argue?
Without knowing more about it, it's difficult to say who was inept here. I'll grant you that it appears that SOE as the developer didn't put enough resources into the game at launch. The problems with the database for example, that resulted in the infamous "melon nerf" only a month or so after launch indicate that either the game was not properly resourced, or the design was just too ambitious for the resources allocated.
Either way it looks a lot like SOE tried to do things somewhat "on the cheap" and got bit.
Also, we've got plenty of evidence to conclude that SOE's project management of SWG was less than stellar. Raph Koster may be a pretty bright design, concept, and theory guy, but I've seen little evidence that he's also a brilliant project manager. He may not have had much help in that area from SOE.
But another aspect of the problem was going gold before it was ready. In part this was because SWG had missed a previous deadline and they were not eager to miss another one. Also in part is that LA is a greedy outfit that has absolutely no scruples about pushing bantha poodoo in a box marked "Star Wars" on the public. Of course SOE doesn't have a very good reputation in this area, either, what with the scandals surrounding EQ expansions.
Another aspect to consider is that with software projects often throwing more people and money at the project is likely to be no help at all, and perhaps harmful to the effort.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Wow, now thats something I didn't know. I thought there had been some playtesting involved.
Wouldn't happen to have any of those design concept documents still, would you? I would love to put them up in our file archives.
the CURB documents were included in biophilia's scrapbook (version 5.1)
Many thanks. Will go pay a visit to the community's unsung hero and his wonderful archive.
I don't suppose anyone has a link to just those documents? I downloaded the scrapbook and the thing is massive, nearly a gig, and my computer can't decompress it.
Just Google it next time dude:
http://files.filefront.com/Biophilias+Scrapbook+v51zip/;9632666;/fileinfo.html