Oh ok, so losing a corpse a FOREVER ain't gamebreaking? Don't even try to argue with me in that point, in my eyes its gamebreaking.
And sorry i don't play WoW, i just took it since you already talked about it and if i compare your arguments with the one you qouted i would vote vor WoW anytime.
That is why most people believe WoW to be the greatest... because it caters to everyone. There is something in that game that my 60 year old mother can enjoy and my 7 year old son at the same time.
I however, am more hardcore than that. I figure any game my son can play is a game that I don't want to play. Seriously, I watched my son take over for my wife mid-way through Shattered Halls on Heroic before as a warrior. He did fine and the group did fine on the whole. I was amazed that the skill required to tank on heroic was so simple that my son could do so. You definitely could not say the same thing about a tank in EQ... or any class in EQ for that matter.
10 million people can like their WoW. I don't hate the game. I just find it's play style below my skill level.
Incidentally, there have been games released where you loose everything sometimes when you die. Old-school PVP UO would have your entire corpse looted when you got PKed. So you'd have a corpse, sure, but there was nothing on it to loo. If the honorable PKers didn't raze your corpse then wandering monsters would. Could you imagine if mobs in WoW could loot a trophy from your corpse when you died? THE HORROR....
More power to you then, go to your game and shout how L33t you are and pound your chest in the meantime.
obvious wowfanboi is obvious wowfanboi and upset.
Listen, no need to get an attitude like that. He's not bashing WoW, in fact he, just like me and several other posters, admit that WoW is decent but could be so much better and that it does well at catering to the casual player who likes to be given everything.
Well that is your opinion. Having cleared the place, in my opinion Sunwell Plateau is still the best end-game raiding content in any game I have played. Mind you, I am currently playing EQ 2 and have played EVE for over a year and these two games have nothing like SWP. SWP is hard, extremely well tuned and unforgiving. The sense of accomplishment in defeating the harder encounters there is not comparable to anything in any other MMO I've played.
Yet, I hated the BT farming prior to SWP and TBC raiding in general. SWP is truly the crown jewel of the TBC raid instances.
And that is your opinion as well. I'm betting any EQ1 vets could definitely argue that EQ1 currently has (and probably always will have) the best end-game raiding ever.
You talk accomplishment? You've never been in the first wave zoning into the Plane of Fear when the baddies are grouped up en-mass at the portal to wipe you out instantly forcing you into an hours-long corpse recovery with your guild.
I can also tell you never raided Veeshan's Peak in the days when it was a widely accepted fact that corpse runs were not only impossible, but that you would probably lose your corpse FOREVER. Recovering from this raid was a feeling of accomplishment.
I can see a feeling of accomplishment in SWP. I would equate it to the feeling of accomplishment for hitting level 70. A quick hurrah for 'beating' it and then lather, rinse and repeat all over again.
With WoW, once you know the strategy, you are invincible.
I'm an EQ 1 vet, a UO vet and MUD vet before that, and I still think WoW has the best endgame raiding in the world. I am willing to bet you haven't stepped foot into SWP.
Well that is your opinion. Having cleared the place, in my opinion Sunwell Plateau is still the best end-game raiding content in any game I have played. Mind you, I am currently playing EQ 2 and have played EVE for over a year and these two games have nothing like SWP. SWP is hard, extremely well tuned and unforgiving. The sense of accomplishment in defeating the harder encounters there is not comparable to anything in any other MMO I've played.
Yet, I hated the BT farming prior to SWP and TBC raiding in general. SWP is truly the crown jewel of the TBC raid instances.
I can also tell you never raided Veeshan's Peak in the days when it was a widely accepted fact that corpse runs were not only impossible, but that you would probably lose your corpse FOREVER. Recovering from this raid was a feeling of accomplishment.
Thats why WoW got better Raid Endgame then EQ. I mean seriously pointing out a gamebreaking bug and state at the same time that EQ got a better Raidgame is a failure.
Gamebreaking? Hell no, boy. You miss the grand picture. If you think it's game-breaking then WoW must be your first raiding experience.
Your first shot in is an epic failure. So you retry. And fail again. And retry. And make some headway. And again and again until you make it to the raid boss and win. From initial start to eventual win we're talking a month at least. You need a strategy for each and every mob you fight. One add is a wipe. The trash mobs are so hard they would be WoW mini-bosses.
The point? When you finally get through this madness and kill the end boss you really have a feeling of accomplishment.
In all honesty though, things are probably different now. With the growing popularity of the internet, I'm sure raiding in EQ has become much easier. Back in our (EQ1 vets) day, we didn't have strategy guides, lorebooks, in-game maps or hundreds of fanboi websites discussing strategy. We had pen and paper and pencil crayons to draw maps and Alahkahazam for loot but other than that it was all trial and error. I doubt you can get into a single group in WoW where someone doesn't know every minute detail about every encounter in a dungeon because the knowledge is so common.
I bitch because I miss the old-school ghetto feel to raiding that EQ1 spoiled me on. Games nowadays give you too many tools to work with taking all the additional fun out of the game.
When clearing the content as one of the world first guilds, there are no guides, you make up the strategies as you go. I can tell you the last two encounters in SWP are challenging beyond anything Everquest had to offer.
You are completely right in saying that raiding in the old days was tough because it wasn't as popular as it is today. There were no guides, videos and for the most part things weren't instanced either. You have to consider the fact that even though over fifty guilds have cleared SWP now, it is plainly due to the popularity of the game, there's hundreds of thousands of people attempting this content. Yes it is much, much easier for the non-pioneering guilds to come in and kill a boss after watching a video, but still, under 0.5% of the WoW population has killed Kil'Jaeden and I am willing to bet this number won't reach over 2% before the release of WotLK. I'd say being in the top two percentile of over ten million players is a great accomplishment, something which wasn't possible in EQ.
Oh ok, so losing a corpse a FOREVER ain't gamebreaking? Don't even try to argue with me in that point, in my eyes its gamebreaking.
And sorry i don't play WoW, i just took it since you already talked about it and if i compare your arguments with the one you qouted i would vote vor WoW anytime.
That is why most people believe WoW to be the greatest... because it caters to everyone. There is something in that game that my 60 year old mother can enjoy and my 7 year old son at the same time.
I however, am more hardcore than that. I figure any game my son can play is a game that I don't want to play. Seriously, I watched my son take over for my wife mid-way through Shattered Halls on Heroic before as a warrior. He did fine and the group did fine on the whole. I was amazed that the skill required to tank on heroic was so simple that my son could do so. You definitely could not say the same thing about a tank in EQ... or any class in EQ for that matter.
10 million people can like their WoW. I don't hate the game. I just find it's play style below my skill level.
Incidentally, there have been games released where you loose everything sometimes when you die. Old-school PVP UO would have your entire corpse looted when you got PKed. So you'd have a corpse, sure, but there was nothing on it to loo. If the honorable PKers didn't raze your corpse then wandering monsters would. Could you imagine if mobs in WoW could loot a trophy from your corpse when you died? THE HORROR....
More power to you then, go to your game and shout how L33t you are and pound your chest in the meantime.
obvious wowfanboi is obvious wowfanboi and upset.
Listen, no need to get an attitude like that. He's not bashing WoW, in fact he, just like me and several other posters, admit that WoW is decent but could be so much better and that it does well at catering to the casual player who likes to be given everything.
Is this some kind of trend on this board that anyone who don't agree that they're game is the greatest in History gets marked as WoW fanboi? I got this attitude because he got the same attitude towards the players that play WoW.
I played WoW so what? Almost everyone tested it in some way if he wants to talk about it.
Well that is your opinion. Having cleared the place, in my opinion Sunwell Plateau is still the best end-game raiding content in any game I have played. Mind you, I am currently playing EQ 2 and have played EVE for over a year and these two games have nothing like SWP. SWP is hard, extremely well tuned and unforgiving. The sense of accomplishment in defeating the harder encounters there is not comparable to anything in any other MMO I've played.
Yet, I hated the BT farming prior to SWP and TBC raiding in general. SWP is truly the crown jewel of the TBC raid instances.
And that is your opinion as well. I'm betting any EQ1 vets could definitely argue that EQ1 currently has (and probably always will have) the best end-game raiding ever.
You talk accomplishment? You've never been in the first wave zoning into the Plane of Fear when the baddies are grouped up en-mass at the portal to wipe you out instantly forcing you into an hours-long corpse recovery with your guild.
I can also tell you never raided Veeshan's Peak in the days when it was a widely accepted fact that corpse runs were not only impossible, but that you would probably lose your corpse FOREVER. Recovering from this raid was a feeling of accomplishment.
I can see a feeling of accomplishment in SWP. I would equate it to the feeling of accomplishment for hitting level 70. A quick hurrah for 'beating' it and then lather, rinse and repeat all over again.
With WoW, once you know the strategy, you are invincible.
I'm an EQ 1 vet, a UO vet and MUD vet before that, and I still think WoW has the best endgame raiding in the world. I am willing to bet you haven't stepped foot into SWP.
I like how you throw out bullshit.
I"m willing to bet that even though you played those games, YOU NEVER MADE IT TO THE END GAME. In fact, I'm sure you never stepped foot into PoT. EQ > WoW. Simple as that. Not just the end game, but everything.
WoW has its place, but it's not for the hardcore MMO player. It's for grandma and Junior.
Well that is your opinion. Having cleared the place, in my opinion Sunwell Plateau is still the best end-game raiding content in any game I have played. Mind you, I am currently playing EQ 2 and have played EVE for over a year and these two games have nothing like SWP. SWP is hard, extremely well tuned and unforgiving. The sense of accomplishment in defeating the harder encounters there is not comparable to anything in any other MMO I've played.
Yet, I hated the BT farming prior to SWP and TBC raiding in general. SWP is truly the crown jewel of the TBC raid instances.
I can also tell you never raided Veeshan's Peak in the days when it was a widely accepted fact that corpse runs were not only impossible, but that you would probably lose your corpse FOREVER. Recovering from this raid was a feeling of accomplishment.
Thats why WoW got better Raid Endgame then EQ. I mean seriously pointing out a gamebreaking bug and state at the same time that EQ got a better Raidgame is a failure.
Gamebreaking? Hell no, boy. You miss the grand picture. If you think it's game-breaking then WoW must be your first raiding experience.
Your first shot in is an epic failure. So you retry. And fail again. And retry. And make some headway. And again and again until you make it to the raid boss and win. From initial start to eventual win we're talking a month at least. You need a strategy for each and every mob you fight. One add is a wipe. The trash mobs are so hard they would be WoW mini-bosses.
The point? When you finally get through this madness and kill the end boss you really have a feeling of accomplishment.
In all honesty though, things are probably different now. With the growing popularity of the internet, I'm sure raiding in EQ has become much easier. Back in our (EQ1 vets) day, we didn't have strategy guides, lorebooks, in-game maps or hundreds of fanboi websites discussing strategy. We had pen and paper and pencil crayons to draw maps and Alahkahazam for loot but other than that it was all trial and error. I doubt you can get into a single group in WoW where someone doesn't know every minute detail about every encounter in a dungeon because the knowledge is so common.
I bitch because I miss the old-school ghetto feel to raiding that EQ1 spoiled me on. Games nowadays give you too many tools to work with taking all the additional fun out of the game.
When clearing the content as one of the world first guilds, there are no guides, you make up the strategies as you go. I can tell you the last two encounters in SWP are challenging beyond anything Everquest had to offer.
You are completely right in saying that raiding in the old days was tough because it wasn't as popular as it is today. There were no guides, videos and for the most part things weren't instanced either. You have to consider the fact that even though over fifty guilds have cleared SWP now, it is plainly due to the popularity of the game, there's hundreds of thousands of people attempting this content. Yes it is much, much easier for the non-pioneering guilds to come in and kill a boss after watching a video, but still, under 0.5% of the WoW population has killed Kil'Jaeden and I am willing to bet this number won't reach over 2% before the release of WotLK. I'd say being in the top two percentile of over ten million players is a great accomplishment, something which wasn't possible in EQ.
You know, you might be right about only 2% clearing SWP by the time WoTLK is released, but you know what? After everyone hits 80....SWP will be 5 or even 2 manned. Now tell me that's not some bullshit.
Well that is your opinion. Having cleared the place, in my opinion Sunwell Plateau is still the best end-game raiding content in any game I have played. Mind you, I am currently playing EQ 2 and have played EVE for over a year and these two games have nothing like SWP. SWP is hard, extremely well tuned and unforgiving. The sense of accomplishment in defeating the harder encounters there is not comparable to anything in any other MMO I've played.
Yet, I hated the BT farming prior to SWP and TBC raiding in general. SWP is truly the crown jewel of the TBC raid instances.
And that is your opinion as well. I'm betting any EQ1 vets could definitely argue that EQ1 currently has (and probably always will have) the best end-game raiding ever. You talk accomplishment? You've never been in the first wave zoning into the Plane of Fear when the baddies are grouped up en-mass at the portal to wipe you out instantly forcing you into an hours-long corpse recovery with your guild. I can also tell you never raided Veeshan's Peak in the days when it was a widely accepted fact that corpse runs were not only impossible, but that you would probably lose your corpse FOREVER. Recovering from this raid was a feeling of accomplishment. I can see a feeling of accomplishment in SWP. I would equate it to the feeling of accomplishment for hitting level 70. A quick hurrah for 'beating' it and then lather, rinse and repeat all over again. With WoW, once you know the strategy, you are invincible.
I'm an EQ 1 vet, a UO vet and MUD vet before that, and I still think WoW has the best endgame raiding in the world. I am willing to bet you haven't stepped foot into SWP.
I like how you throw out bullshit. I"m willing to bet that even though you played those games, YOU NEVER MADE IT TO THE END GAME. In fact, I'm sure you never stepped foot into PoT. EQ > WoW. Simple as that. Not just the end game, but everything. WoW has its place, but it's not for the hardcore MMO player. It's for grandma and Junior.
Let me flip the coin back to you, i bet you never made it to the END GAME OF WOW or at least SWP. Maybe you should know that most of those oldschool "Hardcore Gamer" play WoW and enjoy it.
Well that is your opinion. Having cleared the place, in my opinion Sunwell Plateau is still the best end-game raiding content in any game I have played. Mind you, I am currently playing EQ 2 and have played EVE for over a year and these two games have nothing like SWP.
SWP is hard, extremely well tuned and unforgiving. The sense of accomplishment in defeating the harder encounters there is not comparable to anything in any other MMO I've played.
Yet, I hated the BT farming prior to SWP and TBC raiding in general. SWP is truly the crown jewel of the TBC raid instances.
And that is your opinion as well. I'm betting any EQ1 vets could definitely argue that EQ1 currently has (and probably always will have) the best end-game raiding ever.
You talk accomplishment? You've never been in the first wave zoning into the Plane of Fear when the baddies are grouped up en-mass at the portal to wipe you out instantly forcing you into an hours-long corpse recovery with your guild.
I can also tell you never raided Veeshan's Peak in the days when it was a widely accepted fact that corpse runs were not only impossible, but that you would probably lose your corpse FOREVER. Recovering from this raid was a feeling of accomplishment.
I can see a feeling of accomplishment in SWP. I would equate it to the feeling of accomplishment for hitting level 70. A quick hurrah for 'beating' it and then lather, rinse and repeat all over again.
With WoW, once you know the strategy, you are invincible.
I'm an EQ 1 vet, a UO vet and MUD vet before that, and I still think WoW has the best endgame raiding in the world. I am willing to bet you haven't stepped foot into SWP.
I like how you throw out bullshit.
I"m willing to bet that even though you played those games, YOU NEVER MADE IT TO THE END GAME. In fact, I'm sure you never stepped foot into PoT. EQ > WoW. Simple as that. Not just the end game, but everything.
WoW has its place, but it's not for the hardcore MMO player. It's for grandma and Junior.
Let me flip the coin back to you, i bet you never made it to the END GAME OF WOW or at least SWP. Maybe you should know that most of those oldschool "Hardcore Gamer" play WoW and enjoy it.
Actually, if you had read any of my previous mosts, I've beaten SWP. I've done all the old school content as well before TBC came out.
The thing is, WoW has no replay value. Yes, I know many old school gamers play WoW and love it. Mostly, though, it's because they've gotten older, have families, and don't have the time. Again, this is the crowd WoW caters to. Also, this isn't to say that all old school gamers with a family and job don't have time to play a more hardcore game or don't want to play a more hardcore game like they did in their old days.
Luckily, I started playing MMOs when I was 14, and I'm 22 now. I go to college full time, have a job, a social life, and basically live in the gym and library. Now I don't have the obligation of a family, but there are those who do and still want something more than WoW delivers, and so do I.
But again, to repeat my self for the 1 bilionth time....WoW does a great job of gathering up all the casual players and giving them a game that is easy, fun, and does not require much effort to get to the end. Now how some people find the end game interesting, is beyond me.
Maybe I was just spoiled by what EQ delivered. The only game that came close to it was Pre-CU SWG.
Well that is your opinion. Having cleared the place, in my opinion Sunwell Plateau is still the best end-game raiding content in any game I have played. Mind you, I am currently playing EQ 2 and have played EVE for over a year and these two games have nothing like SWP.
SWP is hard, extremely well tuned and unforgiving. The sense of accomplishment in defeating the harder encounters there is not comparable to anything in any other MMO I've played.
Yet, I hated the BT farming prior to SWP and TBC raiding in general. SWP is truly the crown jewel of the TBC raid instances.
And that is your opinion as well. I'm betting any EQ1 vets could definitely argue that EQ1 currently has (and probably always will have) the best end-game raiding ever.
You talk accomplishment? You've never been in the first wave zoning into the Plane of Fear when the baddies are grouped up en-mass at the portal to wipe you out instantly forcing you into an hours-long corpse recovery with your guild.
I can also tell you never raided Veeshan's Peak in the days when it was a widely accepted fact that corpse runs were not only impossible, but that you would probably lose your corpse FOREVER. Recovering from this raid was a feeling of accomplishment.
I can see a feeling of accomplishment in SWP. I would equate it to the feeling of accomplishment for hitting level 70. A quick hurrah for 'beating' it and then lather, rinse and repeat all over again.
With WoW, once you know the strategy, you are invincible.
I'm an EQ 1 vet, a UO vet and MUD vet before that, and I still think WoW has the best endgame raiding in the world. I am willing to bet you haven't stepped foot into SWP.
I like how you throw out bullshit.
I"m willing to bet that even though you played those games, YOU NEVER MADE IT TO THE END GAME. In fact, I'm sure you never stepped foot into PoT. EQ > WoW. Simple as that. Not just the end game, but everything.
WoW has its place, but it's not for the hardcore MMO player. It's for grandma and Junior.
Let me flip the coin back to you, i bet you never made it to the END GAME OF WOW or at least SWP. Maybe you should know that most of those oldschool "Hardcore Gamer" play WoW and enjoy it.
Actually, if you had read any of my previous mosts, I've beaten SWP. I've done all the old school content as well before TBC came out.
The thing is, WoW has no replay value. Yes, I know many old school gamers play WoW and love it. Mostly, though, it's because they've gotten older, have families, and don't have the time. Again, this is the crowd WoW caters to. Also, this isn't to say that all old school gamers with a family and job don't have time to play a more hardcore game or don't want to play a more hardcore game like they did in their old days.
Luckily, I started playing MMOs when I was 14, and I'm 22 now. I go to college full time, have a job, a social life, and basically live in the gym and library. Now I don't have the obligation of a family, but there are those who do and still want something more than WoW delivers, and so do I.
But again, to repeat my self for the 1 bilionth time....WoW does a great job of gathering up all the casual players and giving them a game that is easy, fun, and does not require much effort to get to the end. Now how some people find the end game interesting, is beyond me.
Maybe I was just spoiled by what EQ delivered. The only game that came close to it was Pre-CU SWG.
I fully understand that people wish for games that they grow up with, im 27 right now and also would wish for some games that i enjoyed in the past but you know what? I don't want to be like those old grandpas that sit on the bench and moan "Oh the good old times where did they go".
The people on here who use attacks on WoW as a lead-in to talking about how they are the uber-amazing self-created gods of whatever game is the "real thing," and players who like (WoW) or (SWG) or (whatever) are weak, deluded "carebears".... I'm just so happy they are over there playing games I don't like. What a bunch of dateless wankers. If you have to prove your freaking manhood through a video game, you don't have one.
Honstly Blizard hing fun with all their fans and their cash doesnt bother me. Made the decisions no to buy wow a few years ago, so I dotn really see whats wrong with Blizzard doing what they want, if you really hate them
I'm not a no life that sits in front of his computer all day long, I'm an intern that sits in front of his computer all day long.
I like how you throw out bullshit. I"m willing to bet that even though you played those games, YOU NEVER MADE IT TO THE END GAME. In fact, I'm sure you never stepped foot into PoT. EQ > WoW. Simple as that. Not just the end game, but everything. WoW has its place, but it's not for the hardcore MMO player. It's for grandma and Junior.
Im sure all current EQ players agree with you that EQ>WoW ... all 150K of them. Just because you like EQ1 doesn't make it a better game. If you want to remove any biased opinion then just use statistics, WoW currently has the greatest number of active subscribers, which means that WoW > EQ1 (that is the fact, not my opinion)
The people on here who use attacks on WoW as a lead-in to talking about how they are the uber-amazing self-created gods of whatever game is the "real thing," and players who like (WoW) or (SWG) or (whatever) are weak, deluded "carebears".... I'm just so happy they are over there playing games I don't like. What a bunch of dateless wankers. If you have to prove your freaking manhood through a video game, you don't have one.
hehehe, amen to that.
spending 8 hours to raid a boss in any game is not an accomplishment and does not make you hardcore or cool - it makes you weak and single. Weak because you work your muscles less. Single because the only dates you get are the male chars that pretend to be females and /hug and /kiss and /wink at you in the game.
Wake up, grow up and get out into the real life. Real life is for true hardcore players. All those who play games more then live their life are care-bears.
It's.. incredible. Everyone here complaining about lack of new content has never even seen a fraction of the CONTENT ALREADY AVAILABLE. Meaning, the ones complaining are casual players that probably didn't even make it to max level.
That's like walking into an enormous building, exploring a room, and then complaining there isnt enough to explore. YOU HAVE NOT SEEN THE REST OF THE DAMN BUILDING.
In theory, only 1% of players have even seen every boss fight in the game. ONE PERCENT. Now of that 1%, I highly doubt all of them have done most of the quests or even been to most of the zones in the game. Many have entire sections of continents they havent even seen, even if they've completed the boss fights.
Let's say that there is one player out there who has done everything you can do in WoW. He's seen every tree and every stump, which would take a long time to do-- I've played for 4,000 hours and I have not even come close to seeing the entire game yet. FOUR THOUSAND HOURS. And I haven't seen but a fraction of the content that World of Warcraft has to offer.
Now on top of that, before I will even have the chance to see everything, (note that I have four characters at max level) the new Expansion, Wrath of the Lich King, will be released. That adds an entire new continent (Northrend) to Azeroth. I probably won't even see all of this area, DESPITE playing 50-60-70 hours a week. Call me a loser or whatever you wish, I don't have to be accountable to anyone on an online gaming forum for how I spend my free time. The main point being, if a no-life like me can't even manage to see all the content that the game has to offer, how much less might these casuals complaining have seen?
In other words, people are just complaining to complain! They don't have a -real- reason. They see lots of subscribers and think, "This game should RUB MY FEET AND GIVE ME FREE EPICS AND @#@#RWER";. Actually I can't be sure what is going through their minds, but it certainly isn't anything that resembles rational thought.
As far as re-doing existing content: YES! As I stated in my PREVIOUS POST, they HAVE. They've redone dungeon loot in the lower levels, they've revamped question, experience, and even the entire leveling proess itself! They're doing it AGAIN with the release of their next expansion! Note that you don't have to have the expansion to get the benefit of this, the only thing you need the expansion for is the new class and the new continent.
I would love for someone who has actually played the game (max level at minimum) to have a rational debate with me about a lack of content. But, it won't happen. Why is that? Because anyone who has actually played to that point will realize the immensity of the content in existence and know for a fact they haven't seen it all, and that blizzard frequently updates the game with new content.
Don't let the liars fool you. Every single post I've seen in complaint looks like it is from people who have no idea what they're talking about. They'll say something along the lines of, "well X has been the same since release!" and I'll think, "No, the changed that in patch 1.x or 2.x.. this person is clearly an idiot who played for a week."
Lack of content? My ass. Let someone with Sunwell epics post about lack of content-- because you will NOT find that. In fact, if anyone has actually completed that much, they're highly likely to have recieved a beta invite for the expansion by now, and are probably busy playing that.
I fully understand that people wish for games that they grow up with, im 27 right now and also would wish for some games that i enjoyed in the past but you know what? I don't want to be like those old grandpas that sit on the bench and moan "Oh the good old times where did they go".
What do all the pre-CU SWG vets do? Go read those forums and see how they 'won' by turning SOE into mush.
There is nothing wrong with a player voicing an opinion regarding what they miss. There shouldn't be anything wrong with a person stating what they like or dislike about a game. There is nothing wrong with players who like a little more risk in their game and shouldn't be called a chest pounder because of it. What you are not into does not mean every other gamer is not into it as well.
With the rare exception of a former hardcore gamer here or there who enjoys WoW more than anything they played in the past, it does seem that most former EQ players will argue till they are blue in the face that end-game content in that game was hands-down better than end-game content in WoW. I have played end-game content in both games and strongly agree that EQ is better. The risk is greater, the lore is better (I am talking total lore - why are we raiding this zone or this boss... WoW doesn't answer those questions because the typical WoW gamer doesn't care), and the feeling of accomplishment is something you can talk to your gaming buddies about for a week afterwards.
To summarize my previous posts - WoW is good - but it could be better. It is easy - I wish it was harder.
Any game that has end-game content made redundant by expansions needs to improve it's model in my opinion if it wants me back. When friends were looting green trash loot in BC that was close to my pre-BC raiding gear that I spent MONTHs accumulating, I knew the expansion was an epic fail for me. Why waste the time raiding when I know that the next expansion will have me on level playing ground with everyone else again?
Lack of content? My ass. Let someone with Sunwell epics post about lack of content-- because you will NOT find that. In fact, if anyone has actually completed that much, they're highly likely to have recieved a beta invite for the expansion by now, and are probably busy playing that.
How happy will that person with Sunwell epics be when a lvl 71 casual player can compare the fancy new green drop sword they found to the one that the Sunwell player spent a hundred hours running and re-running?
Lack of content? My ass. Let someone with Sunwell epics post about lack of content-- because you will NOT find that. In fact, if anyone has actually completed that much, they're highly likely to have recieved a beta invite for the expansion by now, and are probably busy playing that.
More validation that this game has indeed become World of Gearcraft.
hehehe, amen to that. spending 8 hours to raid a boss in any game is not an accomplishment and does not make you hardcore or cool - it makes you weak and single. Weak because you work your muscles less. Single because the only dates you get are the male chars that pretend to be females and /hug and /kiss and /wink at you in the game. Wake up, grow up and get out into the real life. Real life is for true hardcore players. All those who play games more then live their life are care-bears.
I have a family, own a successful business, have 2 kids and am in the best shape of my life. And I still like EQ1's raiding style better than WoWs.
You think the way EQ did raids was bad and makes former EQ players weak and single? Hell, boy, I'm betting all players who played an MMO before WoW and currently play WoW have logged in 8-hour play sessions on a regular basis. Current WoW raiders are 8-hour a day players. It takes what, 2 hours to run dailies in WoW? Then add on any rep farming or AH or crafting for another 2 hours, then add on a nightly raid for 4 hours from setup to completion.Countless players state how wow is super addictive.
And as for real life being for hardcore players? Real life is for people that have no challenge on a daily basis. My day is long and hard. I can travel 2000 miles a day sometimes if I'm travelling (which is common). I play these games to (believe it or not) unwind at the end of it all. If I make a bad deal or have a deal fall through, I know that I can clear my mind of the negativity by logging into a game and leaving the real world behind.
Bronks- Guess what man....you can only be a virgin ONCE...no game will ever impact you as much as EQ did. And it sounds like EQ was a pain in the ass to play. I for one do NOT feel like sitting through with the frustration that you and those other 150k dealt with. I will never understand the hate/rants/bitchin that 90% of the posters on this site complain about.
1. You played as much as you want and are now tired of it: QUIT.
2. You are not paying for anyone else's account here to play: GET OVER IT.
3. You will not convince anyone of any type of greedy corporation plot: THEY ALL ARE ANYWAY.
4. You will always seem jaded, unforgiving and condescending to anyone here if they like a game: QUIT WHINING
Good for you for liking EQ, finishing SWP, getting 5 level 70s all with full T6 sets and full exalted with every faction. I'm unhappy that the OP is not content satisfied. But it takes more than 1 game to sustain a company. Blizzard has mutiple IPs that all require work, teams, development, research and good ol cash. So please save your tears for someone who cares. I am 35 years old, father of 2 girls, husband and full time worker that has played UO, SWG, AQ, DAoC, EVE and many free, beta and P2P MMOs and as of now, WoW is fine the way it is. My smallest girl just got her mount at level 32 (new patch), my wife is a AH nutcase and I'm currently grinding HPs between raiding BT with a Viet guild (so we have our language barrier to overcome).
No one will think you differently for not liking WoW, Blizzard or any other game/company for that matter....so why the never ending high and mighty attitude about how 'easy' WoW is? No matter how well you try to mask your opinion for WoW and it's players......people will see right through it.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Well that is your opinion. Having cleared the place, in my opinion Sunwell Plateau is still the best end-game raiding content in any game I have played. Mind you, I am currently playing EQ 2 and have played EVE for over a year and these two games have nothing like SWP. SWP is hard, extremely well tuned and unforgiving. The sense of accomplishment in defeating the harder encounters there is not comparable to anything in any other MMO I've played.
Yet, I hated the BT farming prior to SWP and TBC raiding in general. SWP is truly the crown jewel of the TBC raid instances.
I can also tell you never raided Veeshan's Peak in the days when it was a widely accepted fact that corpse runs were not only impossible, but that you would probably lose your corpse FOREVER. Recovering from this raid was a feeling of accomplishment.
Thats why WoW got better Raid Endgame then EQ. I mean seriously pointing out a gamebreaking bug and state at the same time that EQ got a better Raidgame is a failure.
Gamebreaking? Hell no, boy. You miss the grand picture. If you think it's game-breaking then WoW must be your first raiding experience.
Your first shot in is an epic failure. So you retry. And fail again. And retry. And make some headway. And again and again until you make it to the raid boss and win. From initial start to eventual win we're talking a month at least. You need a strategy for each and every mob you fight. One add is a wipe. The trash mobs are so hard they would be WoW mini-bosses.
The point? When you finally get through this madness and kill the end boss you really have a feeling of accomplishment.
In all honesty though, things are probably different now. With the growing popularity of the internet, I'm sure raiding in EQ has become much easier. Back in our (EQ1 vets) day, we didn't have strategy guides, lorebooks, in-game maps or hundreds of fanboi websites discussing strategy. We had pen and paper and pencil crayons to draw maps and Alahkahazam for loot but other than that it was all trial and error. I doubt you can get into a single group in WoW where someone doesn't know every minute detail about every encounter in a dungeon because the knowledge is so common.
I bitch because I miss the old-school ghetto feel to raiding that EQ1 spoiled me on. Games nowadays give you too many tools to work with taking all the additional fun out of the game.
When clearing the content as one of the world first guilds, there are no guides, you make up the strategies as you go. I can tell you the last two encounters in SWP are challenging beyond anything Everquest had to offer.
You are completely right in saying that raiding in the old days was tough because it wasn't as popular as it is today. There were no guides, videos and for the most part things weren't instanced either. You have to consider the fact that even though over fifty guilds have cleared SWP now, it is plainly due to the popularity of the game, there's hundreds of thousands of people attempting this content. Yes it is much, much easier for the non-pioneering guilds to come in and kill a boss after watching a video, but still, under 0.5% of the WoW population has killed Kil'Jaeden and I am willing to bet this number won't reach over 2% before the release of WotLK. I'd say being in the top two percentile of over ten million players is a great accomplishment, something which wasn't possible in EQ.
You know, you might be right about only 2% clearing SWP by the time WoTLK is released, but you know what? After everyone hits 80....SWP will be 5 or even 2 manned. Now tell me that's not some bullshit.
You obviously do not have experience in SWP. It will never be two or five manned.
I like how you throw out bullshit. I"m willing to bet that even though you played those games, YOU NEVER MADE IT TO THE END GAME. In fact, I'm sure you never stepped foot into PoT. EQ > WoW. Simple as that. Not just the end game, but everything. WoW has its place, but it's not for the hardcore MMO player. It's for grandma and Junior.
Hah, coming from a person who says SWP will be five or two-manned and claiming he has completed the instance, I find this ridiculous.
As for Everquest, I took part in raiding since the very beginning. Nothing in Everquest comes close to the coordination needed to defeat Mu'ru or Kil'Jaeden in SWP. The fact that there was a 72-player cap for raids also made many of the 'raiding accomplishments' more like a foaming-at-the mouth zerg than an organized raid. One thing I miss about Everquest raiding are the corpse runs. WoW made this too easy, but then again nearly every raid encounter in WoW is instanced with timed repops, so I guess a similar dynamic to EQ would not make sense.
Anyone can type what they want here in relative anonymity, but truly, get your facts straight, the reason why SWP and all the other raid instances in WoW were cleared so quickly is that there were as many people playing that raid content as there were people playing EQ back in the day.
Tell me fight in Everquest that compares to complexity and difficulty when weighed against Kil'Jaeden or Mu'ru or even an early TBC encounter like Kael'Thas. This is a matter of opinion again, but I do not think there are any. So much of EQ raiding was pure brute forcing that I find your arguments a bit odd.
hehehe, amen to that. spending 8 hours to raid a boss in any game is not an accomplishment and does not make you hardcore or cool - it makes you weak and single. Weak because you work your muscles less. Single because the only dates you get are the male chars that pretend to be females and /hug and /kiss and /wink at you in the game. Wake up, grow up and get out into the real life. Real life is for true hardcore players. All those who play games more then live their life are care-bears.
I have a family, own a successful business, have 2 kids and am in the best shape of my life. And I still like EQ1's raiding style better than WoWs.
You think the way EQ did raids was bad and makes former EQ players weak and single? Hell, boy, I'm betting all players who played an MMO before WoW and currently play WoW have logged in 8-hour play sessions on a regular basis. Current WoW raiders are 8-hour a day players. It takes what, 2 hours to run dailies in WoW? Then add on any rep farming or AH or crafting for another 2 hours, then add on a nightly raid for 4 hours from setup to completion.Countless players state how wow is super addictive.
And as for real life being for hardcore players? Real life is for people that have no challenge on a daily basis. My day is long and hard. I can travel 2000 miles a day sometimes if I'm travelling (which is common). I play these games to (believe it or not) unwind at the end of it all. If I make a bad deal or have a deal fall through, I know that I can clear my mind of the negativity by logging into a game and leaving the real world behind.
The guilds that clear end-game content among the first in the world can wipe for just eight hours in a row on a given encounter. In fact, it took us over 36 hours of wiping on both Mu'ru and Kil'Jaeden before we had them down, not back-to-back of course but we had several over twelve-hour gaming sessions in SWP. One thing does ring true, once you have the strategy down and nobody in the raid makes a mistake, you can not wipe on a previously defeated encounter more than once or twice due to random elements(If you posses the sufficient gear level.).
In general, you are correct, WoW does cater to the casual gaming crowd, but the game also has the best and most demanding PvE raiding content in the world at the moment.
You obviously do not have experience in SWP. It will never be two or five manned.
As nice as this would be to believe...People said that Ony would be impossible with anything less than 30 or so players, peopel said that Rags would take a minimum of 20 extremely well geared players because the sons would kill you...hell, people said that C'thun was downright IMPOSSIBLE.
And yet...Onyxia has been solo'ed, Rags is a joke, and C'thun is PuG'able now.
I've seen the SWP fights, they don't have mechanics that are any different than the old fights, they're just hgiher level and have some curveballs...no real reason that they would be impossible to five man, or even two man...Even the Kil'Jaden fight could concievably three manned...The gear, ability, and stat disparity that will exist between 70 and 80 will be even greater than it was from 60 to 70...and it will continue to be this way until WoW fades into obscurity...old content will become trivial even to casuals...and your progress will ultimately mean nothing...Just because it hurts your pride now to think that someday people will PuG what you have worked your ass off to achieve, doesn't make it untrue.
Which, by the way, I am not saying that you haven't put in a great deal of work...I know what it's like to raid WoW's PvE end game, I've been there...props to you if you have put in the man hours to kill Kil"jaden...I'm just saying...be realistic here.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
You obviously do not have experience in SWP. It will never be two or five manned.
As nice as this would be to believe...People said that Ony would be impossible with anything less than 30 or so players, peopel said that Rags would take a minimum of 20 extremely well geared players because the sons would kill you...hell, people said that C'thun was downright IMPOSSIBLE.
And yet...Onyxia has been solo'ed, Rags is a joke, and C'thun is PuG'able now.
I've seen the SWP fights, they don't have mechanics that are any different than the old fights, they're just hgiher level and have some curveballs...no real reason that they would be impossible to five man, or even two man...Even the Kil'Jaden fight could concievably three manned...The gear, ability, and stat disparity that will exist between 70 and 80 will be even greater than it was from 60 to 70...and it will continue to be this way until WoW fades into obscurity...old content will become trivial even to casuals...and your progress will ultimately mean nothing...Just because it hurts your pride now to think that someday people will PuG what you have worked your ass off to achieve, doesn't make it untrue.
Which, by the way, I am not saying that you haven't put in a great deal of work...I know what it's like to raid WoW's PvE end game, I've been there...props to you if you have put in the man hours to kill Kil"jaden...I'm just saying...be realistic here.
The gear and the DPS is not enough at 80, no way. Hell, Naxx is not five manneable at the moment.
Comments
That is why most people believe WoW to be the greatest... because it caters to everyone. There is something in that game that my 60 year old mother can enjoy and my 7 year old son at the same time.
I however, am more hardcore than that. I figure any game my son can play is a game that I don't want to play. Seriously, I watched my son take over for my wife mid-way through Shattered Halls on Heroic before as a warrior. He did fine and the group did fine on the whole. I was amazed that the skill required to tank on heroic was so simple that my son could do so. You definitely could not say the same thing about a tank in EQ... or any class in EQ for that matter.
10 million people can like their WoW. I don't hate the game. I just find it's play style below my skill level.
Incidentally, there have been games released where you loose everything sometimes when you die. Old-school PVP UO would have your entire corpse looted when you got PKed. So you'd have a corpse, sure, but there was nothing on it to loo. If the honorable PKers didn't raze your corpse then wandering monsters would. Could you imagine if mobs in WoW could loot a trophy from your corpse when you died? THE HORROR....
More power to you then, go to your game and shout how L33t you are and pound your chest in the meantime.
obvious wowfanboi is obvious wowfanboi and upset.
Listen, no need to get an attitude like that. He's not bashing WoW, in fact he, just like me and several other posters, admit that WoW is decent but could be so much better and that it does well at catering to the casual player who likes to be given everything.
And that is your opinion as well. I'm betting any EQ1 vets could definitely argue that EQ1 currently has (and probably always will have) the best end-game raiding ever.
You talk accomplishment? You've never been in the first wave zoning into the Plane of Fear when the baddies are grouped up en-mass at the portal to wipe you out instantly forcing you into an hours-long corpse recovery with your guild.
I can also tell you never raided Veeshan's Peak in the days when it was a widely accepted fact that corpse runs were not only impossible, but that you would probably lose your corpse FOREVER. Recovering from this raid was a feeling of accomplishment.
I can see a feeling of accomplishment in SWP. I would equate it to the feeling of accomplishment for hitting level 70. A quick hurrah for 'beating' it and then lather, rinse and repeat all over again.
With WoW, once you know the strategy, you are invincible.
I'm an EQ 1 vet, a UO vet and MUD vet before that, and I still think WoW has the best endgame raiding in the world. I am willing to bet you haven't stepped foot into SWP.
I can also tell you never raided Veeshan's Peak in the days when it was a widely accepted fact that corpse runs were not only impossible, but that you would probably lose your corpse FOREVER. Recovering from this raid was a feeling of accomplishment.
Thats why WoW got better Raid Endgame then EQ. I mean seriously pointing out a gamebreaking bug and state at the same time that EQ got a better Raidgame is a failure.
Gamebreaking? Hell no, boy. You miss the grand picture. If you think it's game-breaking then WoW must be your first raiding experience.
Your first shot in is an epic failure. So you retry. And fail again. And retry. And make some headway. And again and again until you make it to the raid boss and win. From initial start to eventual win we're talking a month at least. You need a strategy for each and every mob you fight. One add is a wipe. The trash mobs are so hard they would be WoW mini-bosses.
The point? When you finally get through this madness and kill the end boss you really have a feeling of accomplishment.
In all honesty though, things are probably different now. With the growing popularity of the internet, I'm sure raiding in EQ has become much easier. Back in our (EQ1 vets) day, we didn't have strategy guides, lorebooks, in-game maps or hundreds of fanboi websites discussing strategy. We had pen and paper and pencil crayons to draw maps and Alahkahazam for loot but other than that it was all trial and error. I doubt you can get into a single group in WoW where someone doesn't know every minute detail about every encounter in a dungeon because the knowledge is so common.
I bitch because I miss the old-school ghetto feel to raiding that EQ1 spoiled me on. Games nowadays give you too many tools to work with taking all the additional fun out of the game.
When clearing the content as one of the world first guilds, there are no guides, you make up the strategies as you go. I can tell you the last two encounters in SWP are challenging beyond anything Everquest had to offer.
You are completely right in saying that raiding in the old days was tough because it wasn't as popular as it is today. There were no guides, videos and for the most part things weren't instanced either. You have to consider the fact that even though over fifty guilds have cleared SWP now, it is plainly due to the popularity of the game, there's hundreds of thousands of people attempting this content. Yes it is much, much easier for the non-pioneering guilds to come in and kill a boss after watching a video, but still, under 0.5% of the WoW population has killed Kil'Jaeden and I am willing to bet this number won't reach over 2% before the release of WotLK. I'd say being in the top two percentile of over ten million players is a great accomplishment, something which wasn't possible in EQ.
That is why most people believe WoW to be the greatest... because it caters to everyone. There is something in that game that my 60 year old mother can enjoy and my 7 year old son at the same time.
I however, am more hardcore than that. I figure any game my son can play is a game that I don't want to play. Seriously, I watched my son take over for my wife mid-way through Shattered Halls on Heroic before as a warrior. He did fine and the group did fine on the whole. I was amazed that the skill required to tank on heroic was so simple that my son could do so. You definitely could not say the same thing about a tank in EQ... or any class in EQ for that matter.
10 million people can like their WoW. I don't hate the game. I just find it's play style below my skill level.
Incidentally, there have been games released where you loose everything sometimes when you die. Old-school PVP UO would have your entire corpse looted when you got PKed. So you'd have a corpse, sure, but there was nothing on it to loo. If the honorable PKers didn't raze your corpse then wandering monsters would. Could you imagine if mobs in WoW could loot a trophy from your corpse when you died? THE HORROR....
More power to you then, go to your game and shout how L33t you are and pound your chest in the meantime.
obvious wowfanboi is obvious wowfanboi and upset.
Listen, no need to get an attitude like that. He's not bashing WoW, in fact he, just like me and several other posters, admit that WoW is decent but could be so much better and that it does well at catering to the casual player who likes to be given everything.
Is this some kind of trend on this board that anyone who don't agree that they're game is the greatest in History gets marked as WoW fanboi? I got this attitude because he got the same attitude towards the players that play WoW.
I played WoW so what? Almost everyone tested it in some way if he wants to talk about it.
And that is your opinion as well. I'm betting any EQ1 vets could definitely argue that EQ1 currently has (and probably always will have) the best end-game raiding ever.
You talk accomplishment? You've never been in the first wave zoning into the Plane of Fear when the baddies are grouped up en-mass at the portal to wipe you out instantly forcing you into an hours-long corpse recovery with your guild.
I can also tell you never raided Veeshan's Peak in the days when it was a widely accepted fact that corpse runs were not only impossible, but that you would probably lose your corpse FOREVER. Recovering from this raid was a feeling of accomplishment.
I can see a feeling of accomplishment in SWP. I would equate it to the feeling of accomplishment for hitting level 70. A quick hurrah for 'beating' it and then lather, rinse and repeat all over again.
With WoW, once you know the strategy, you are invincible.
I'm an EQ 1 vet, a UO vet and MUD vet before that, and I still think WoW has the best endgame raiding in the world. I am willing to bet you haven't stepped foot into SWP.
I like how you throw out bullshit.
I"m willing to bet that even though you played those games, YOU NEVER MADE IT TO THE END GAME. In fact, I'm sure you never stepped foot into PoT. EQ > WoW. Simple as that. Not just the end game, but everything.
WoW has its place, but it's not for the hardcore MMO player. It's for grandma and Junior.
I can also tell you never raided Veeshan's Peak in the days when it was a widely accepted fact that corpse runs were not only impossible, but that you would probably lose your corpse FOREVER. Recovering from this raid was a feeling of accomplishment.
Thats why WoW got better Raid Endgame then EQ. I mean seriously pointing out a gamebreaking bug and state at the same time that EQ got a better Raidgame is a failure.
Gamebreaking? Hell no, boy. You miss the grand picture. If you think it's game-breaking then WoW must be your first raiding experience.
Your first shot in is an epic failure. So you retry. And fail again. And retry. And make some headway. And again and again until you make it to the raid boss and win. From initial start to eventual win we're talking a month at least. You need a strategy for each and every mob you fight. One add is a wipe. The trash mobs are so hard they would be WoW mini-bosses.
The point? When you finally get through this madness and kill the end boss you really have a feeling of accomplishment.
In all honesty though, things are probably different now. With the growing popularity of the internet, I'm sure raiding in EQ has become much easier. Back in our (EQ1 vets) day, we didn't have strategy guides, lorebooks, in-game maps or hundreds of fanboi websites discussing strategy. We had pen and paper and pencil crayons to draw maps and Alahkahazam for loot but other than that it was all trial and error. I doubt you can get into a single group in WoW where someone doesn't know every minute detail about every encounter in a dungeon because the knowledge is so common.
I bitch because I miss the old-school ghetto feel to raiding that EQ1 spoiled me on. Games nowadays give you too many tools to work with taking all the additional fun out of the game.
When clearing the content as one of the world first guilds, there are no guides, you make up the strategies as you go. I can tell you the last two encounters in SWP are challenging beyond anything Everquest had to offer.
You are completely right in saying that raiding in the old days was tough because it wasn't as popular as it is today. There were no guides, videos and for the most part things weren't instanced either. You have to consider the fact that even though over fifty guilds have cleared SWP now, it is plainly due to the popularity of the game, there's hundreds of thousands of people attempting this content. Yes it is much, much easier for the non-pioneering guilds to come in and kill a boss after watching a video, but still, under 0.5% of the WoW population has killed Kil'Jaeden and I am willing to bet this number won't reach over 2% before the release of WotLK. I'd say being in the top two percentile of over ten million players is a great accomplishment, something which wasn't possible in EQ.
You know, you might be right about only 2% clearing SWP by the time WoTLK is released, but you know what? After everyone hits 80....SWP will be 5 or even 2 manned. Now tell me that's not some bullshit.
Let me flip the coin back to you, i bet you never made it to the END GAME OF WOW or at least SWP. Maybe you should know that most of those oldschool "Hardcore Gamer" play WoW and enjoy it.
You talk accomplishment? You've never been in the first wave zoning into the Plane of Fear when the baddies are grouped up en-mass at the portal to wipe you out instantly forcing you into an hours-long corpse recovery with your guild.
I can also tell you never raided Veeshan's Peak in the days when it was a widely accepted fact that corpse runs were not only impossible, but that you would probably lose your corpse FOREVER. Recovering from this raid was a feeling of accomplishment.
I can see a feeling of accomplishment in SWP. I would equate it to the feeling of accomplishment for hitting level 70. A quick hurrah for 'beating' it and then lather, rinse and repeat all over again.
With WoW, once you know the strategy, you are invincible.
I'm an EQ 1 vet, a UO vet and MUD vet before that, and I still think WoW has the best endgame raiding in the world. I am willing to bet you haven't stepped foot into SWP.
I like how you throw out bullshit.
I"m willing to bet that even though you played those games, YOU NEVER MADE IT TO THE END GAME. In fact, I'm sure you never stepped foot into PoT. EQ > WoW. Simple as that. Not just the end game, but everything.
WoW has its place, but it's not for the hardcore MMO player. It's for grandma and Junior.
Let me flip the coin back to you, i bet you never made it to the END GAME OF WOW or at least SWP. Maybe you should know that most of those oldschool "Hardcore Gamer" play WoW and enjoy it.
Actually, if you had read any of my previous mosts, I've beaten SWP. I've done all the old school content as well before TBC came out.
The thing is, WoW has no replay value. Yes, I know many old school gamers play WoW and love it. Mostly, though, it's because they've gotten older, have families, and don't have the time. Again, this is the crowd WoW caters to. Also, this isn't to say that all old school gamers with a family and job don't have time to play a more hardcore game or don't want to play a more hardcore game like they did in their old days.
Luckily, I started playing MMOs when I was 14, and I'm 22 now. I go to college full time, have a job, a social life, and basically live in the gym and library. Now I don't have the obligation of a family, but there are those who do and still want something more than WoW delivers, and so do I.
But again, to repeat my self for the 1 bilionth time....WoW does a great job of gathering up all the casual players and giving them a game that is easy, fun, and does not require much effort to get to the end. Now how some people find the end game interesting, is beyond me.
Maybe I was just spoiled by what EQ delivered. The only game that came close to it was Pre-CU SWG.
You talk accomplishment? You've never been in the first wave zoning into the Plane of Fear when the baddies are grouped up en-mass at the portal to wipe you out instantly forcing you into an hours-long corpse recovery with your guild.
I can also tell you never raided Veeshan's Peak in the days when it was a widely accepted fact that corpse runs were not only impossible, but that you would probably lose your corpse FOREVER. Recovering from this raid was a feeling of accomplishment.
I can see a feeling of accomplishment in SWP. I would equate it to the feeling of accomplishment for hitting level 70. A quick hurrah for 'beating' it and then lather, rinse and repeat all over again.
With WoW, once you know the strategy, you are invincible.
I'm an EQ 1 vet, a UO vet and MUD vet before that, and I still think WoW has the best endgame raiding in the world. I am willing to bet you haven't stepped foot into SWP.
I like how you throw out bullshit.
I"m willing to bet that even though you played those games, YOU NEVER MADE IT TO THE END GAME. In fact, I'm sure you never stepped foot into PoT. EQ > WoW. Simple as that. Not just the end game, but everything.
WoW has its place, but it's not for the hardcore MMO player. It's for grandma and Junior.
Let me flip the coin back to you, i bet you never made it to the END GAME OF WOW or at least SWP. Maybe you should know that most of those oldschool "Hardcore Gamer" play WoW and enjoy it.
Actually, if you had read any of my previous mosts, I've beaten SWP. I've done all the old school content as well before TBC came out.
The thing is, WoW has no replay value. Yes, I know many old school gamers play WoW and love it. Mostly, though, it's because they've gotten older, have families, and don't have the time. Again, this is the crowd WoW caters to. Also, this isn't to say that all old school gamers with a family and job don't have time to play a more hardcore game or don't want to play a more hardcore game like they did in their old days.
Luckily, I started playing MMOs when I was 14, and I'm 22 now. I go to college full time, have a job, a social life, and basically live in the gym and library. Now I don't have the obligation of a family, but there are those who do and still want something more than WoW delivers, and so do I.
But again, to repeat my self for the 1 bilionth time....WoW does a great job of gathering up all the casual players and giving them a game that is easy, fun, and does not require much effort to get to the end. Now how some people find the end game interesting, is beyond me.
Maybe I was just spoiled by what EQ delivered. The only game that came close to it was Pre-CU SWG.
I fully understand that people wish for games that they grow up with, im 27 right now and also would wish for some games that i enjoyed in the past but you know what? I don't want to be like those old grandpas that sit on the bench and moan "Oh the good old times where did they go".
The people on here who use attacks on WoW as a lead-in to talking about how they are the uber-amazing self-created gods of whatever game is the "real thing," and players who like (WoW) or (SWG) or (whatever) are weak, deluded "carebears".... I'm just so happy they are over there playing games I don't like. What a bunch of dateless wankers. If you have to prove your freaking manhood through a video game, you don't have one.
Honstly Blizard hing fun with all their fans and their cash doesnt bother me. Made the decisions no to buy wow a few years ago, so I dotn really see whats wrong with Blizzard doing what they want, if you really hate them
I'm not a no life that sits in front of his computer all day long, I'm an intern that sits in front of his computer all day long.
Another useless "I hate THE game" thread.
Yes it is THE game and be happy it's here,
....because if it weren't for Blizzard, PC games were already dead and burried in favor of mindless FPS on playcomputers.
The situation of the PC software market is BAD, very bad. Luckely there is this ONE giant MMORPG that keeps interest alive.
Or we would all be playing EA console games version whatever xth.
Tx Blizzard for creating SC, WC 2 and 3, Diablo 1 and 2 and the best MMORPG ever published.
Im sure all current EQ players agree with you that EQ>WoW ... all 150K of them. Just because you like EQ1 doesn't make it a better game. If you want to remove any biased opinion then just use statistics, WoW currently has the greatest number of active subscribers, which means that WoW > EQ1 (that is the fact, not my opinion)
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
hehehe, amen to that.
spending 8 hours to raid a boss in any game is not an accomplishment and does not make you hardcore or cool - it makes you weak and single. Weak because you work your muscles less. Single because the only dates you get are the male chars that pretend to be females and /hug and /kiss and /wink at you in the game.
Wake up, grow up and get out into the real life. Real life is for true hardcore players. All those who play games more then live their life are care-bears.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
The ignorance level here is OVER 9000!
It's.. incredible. Everyone here complaining about lack of new content has never even seen a fraction of the CONTENT ALREADY AVAILABLE. Meaning, the ones complaining are casual players that probably didn't even make it to max level.
That's like walking into an enormous building, exploring a room, and then complaining there isnt enough to explore. YOU HAVE NOT SEEN THE REST OF THE DAMN BUILDING.
In theory, only 1% of players have even seen every boss fight in the game. ONE PERCENT. Now of that 1%, I highly doubt all of them have done most of the quests or even been to most of the zones in the game. Many have entire sections of continents they havent even seen, even if they've completed the boss fights.
Let's say that there is one player out there who has done everything you can do in WoW. He's seen every tree and every stump, which would take a long time to do-- I've played for 4,000 hours and I have not even come close to seeing the entire game yet. FOUR THOUSAND HOURS. And I haven't seen but a fraction of the content that World of Warcraft has to offer.
Now on top of that, before I will even have the chance to see everything, (note that I have four characters at max level) the new Expansion, Wrath of the Lich King, will be released. That adds an entire new continent (Northrend) to Azeroth. I probably won't even see all of this area, DESPITE playing 50-60-70 hours a week. Call me a loser or whatever you wish, I don't have to be accountable to anyone on an online gaming forum for how I spend my free time. The main point being, if a no-life like me can't even manage to see all the content that the game has to offer, how much less might these casuals complaining have seen?
In other words, people are just complaining to complain! They don't have a -real- reason. They see lots of subscribers and think, "This game should RUB MY FEET AND GIVE ME FREE EPICS AND @#@#RWER";. Actually I can't be sure what is going through their minds, but it certainly isn't anything that resembles rational thought.
As far as re-doing existing content: YES! As I stated in my PREVIOUS POST, they HAVE. They've redone dungeon loot in the lower levels, they've revamped question, experience, and even the entire leveling proess itself! They're doing it AGAIN with the release of their next expansion! Note that you don't have to have the expansion to get the benefit of this, the only thing you need the expansion for is the new class and the new continent.
I would love for someone who has actually played the game (max level at minimum) to have a rational debate with me about a lack of content. But, it won't happen. Why is that? Because anyone who has actually played to that point will realize the immensity of the content in existence and know for a fact they haven't seen it all, and that blizzard frequently updates the game with new content.
Don't let the liars fool you. Every single post I've seen in complaint looks like it is from people who have no idea what they're talking about. They'll say something along the lines of, "well X has been the same since release!" and I'll think, "No, the changed that in patch 1.x or 2.x.. this person is clearly an idiot who played for a week."
Lack of content? My ass. Let someone with Sunwell epics post about lack of content-- because you will NOT find that. In fact, if anyone has actually completed that much, they're highly likely to have recieved a beta invite for the expansion by now, and are probably busy playing that.
What do all the pre-CU SWG vets do? Go read those forums and see how they 'won' by turning SOE into mush.
There is nothing wrong with a player voicing an opinion regarding what they miss. There shouldn't be anything wrong with a person stating what they like or dislike about a game. There is nothing wrong with players who like a little more risk in their game and shouldn't be called a chest pounder because of it. What you are not into does not mean every other gamer is not into it as well.
With the rare exception of a former hardcore gamer here or there who enjoys WoW more than anything they played in the past, it does seem that most former EQ players will argue till they are blue in the face that end-game content in that game was hands-down better than end-game content in WoW. I have played end-game content in both games and strongly agree that EQ is better. The risk is greater, the lore is better (I am talking total lore - why are we raiding this zone or this boss... WoW doesn't answer those questions because the typical WoW gamer doesn't care), and the feeling of accomplishment is something you can talk to your gaming buddies about for a week afterwards.
To summarize my previous posts - WoW is good - but it could be better. It is easy - I wish it was harder.
Any game that has end-game content made redundant by expansions needs to improve it's model in my opinion if it wants me back. When friends were looting green trash loot in BC that was close to my pre-BC raiding gear that I spent MONTHs accumulating, I knew the expansion was an epic fail for me. Why waste the time raiding when I know that the next expansion will have me on level playing ground with everyone else again?
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How happy will that person with Sunwell epics be when a lvl 71 casual player can compare the fancy new green drop sword they found to the one that the Sunwell player spent a hundred hours running and re-running?
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More validation that this game has indeed become World of Gearcraft.
I have a family, own a successful business, have 2 kids and am in the best shape of my life. And I still like EQ1's raiding style better than WoWs.
You think the way EQ did raids was bad and makes former EQ players weak and single? Hell, boy, I'm betting all players who played an MMO before WoW and currently play WoW have logged in 8-hour play sessions on a regular basis. Current WoW raiders are 8-hour a day players. It takes what, 2 hours to run dailies in WoW? Then add on any rep farming or AH or crafting for another 2 hours, then add on a nightly raid for 4 hours from setup to completion.Countless players state how wow is super addictive.
And as for real life being for hardcore players? Real life is for people that have no challenge on a daily basis. My day is long and hard. I can travel 2000 miles a day sometimes if I'm travelling (which is common). I play these games to (believe it or not) unwind at the end of it all. If I make a bad deal or have a deal fall through, I know that I can clear my mind of the negativity by logging into a game and leaving the real world behind.
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Bronks- Guess what man....you can only be a virgin ONCE...no game will ever impact you as much as EQ did. And it sounds like EQ was a pain in the ass to play. I for one do NOT feel like sitting through with the frustration that you and those other 150k dealt with. I will never understand the hate/rants/bitchin that 90% of the posters on this site complain about.
1. You played as much as you want and are now tired of it: QUIT.
2. You are not paying for anyone else's account here to play: GET OVER IT.
3. You will not convince anyone of any type of greedy corporation plot: THEY ALL ARE ANYWAY.
4. You will always seem jaded, unforgiving and condescending to anyone here if they like a game: QUIT WHINING
Good for you for liking EQ, finishing SWP, getting 5 level 70s all with full T6 sets and full exalted with every faction. I'm unhappy that the OP is not content satisfied. But it takes more than 1 game to sustain a company. Blizzard has mutiple IPs that all require work, teams, development, research and good ol cash. So please save your tears for someone who cares. I am 35 years old, father of 2 girls, husband and full time worker that has played UO, SWG, AQ, DAoC, EVE and many free, beta and P2P MMOs and as of now, WoW is fine the way it is. My smallest girl just got her mount at level 32 (new patch), my wife is a AH nutcase and I'm currently grinding HPs between raiding BT with a Viet guild (so we have our language barrier to overcome).
No one will think you differently for not liking WoW, Blizzard or any other game/company for that matter....so why the never ending high and mighty attitude about how 'easy' WoW is? No matter how well you try to mask your opinion for WoW and it's players......people will see right through it.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
I can also tell you never raided Veeshan's Peak in the days when it was a widely accepted fact that corpse runs were not only impossible, but that you would probably lose your corpse FOREVER. Recovering from this raid was a feeling of accomplishment.
Thats why WoW got better Raid Endgame then EQ. I mean seriously pointing out a gamebreaking bug and state at the same time that EQ got a better Raidgame is a failure.
Gamebreaking? Hell no, boy. You miss the grand picture. If you think it's game-breaking then WoW must be your first raiding experience.
Your first shot in is an epic failure. So you retry. And fail again. And retry. And make some headway. And again and again until you make it to the raid boss and win. From initial start to eventual win we're talking a month at least. You need a strategy for each and every mob you fight. One add is a wipe. The trash mobs are so hard they would be WoW mini-bosses.
The point? When you finally get through this madness and kill the end boss you really have a feeling of accomplishment.
In all honesty though, things are probably different now. With the growing popularity of the internet, I'm sure raiding in EQ has become much easier. Back in our (EQ1 vets) day, we didn't have strategy guides, lorebooks, in-game maps or hundreds of fanboi websites discussing strategy. We had pen and paper and pencil crayons to draw maps and Alahkahazam for loot but other than that it was all trial and error. I doubt you can get into a single group in WoW where someone doesn't know every minute detail about every encounter in a dungeon because the knowledge is so common.
I bitch because I miss the old-school ghetto feel to raiding that EQ1 spoiled me on. Games nowadays give you too many tools to work with taking all the additional fun out of the game.
When clearing the content as one of the world first guilds, there are no guides, you make up the strategies as you go. I can tell you the last two encounters in SWP are challenging beyond anything Everquest had to offer.
You are completely right in saying that raiding in the old days was tough because it wasn't as popular as it is today. There were no guides, videos and for the most part things weren't instanced either. You have to consider the fact that even though over fifty guilds have cleared SWP now, it is plainly due to the popularity of the game, there's hundreds of thousands of people attempting this content. Yes it is much, much easier for the non-pioneering guilds to come in and kill a boss after watching a video, but still, under 0.5% of the WoW population has killed Kil'Jaeden and I am willing to bet this number won't reach over 2% before the release of WotLK. I'd say being in the top two percentile of over ten million players is a great accomplishment, something which wasn't possible in EQ.
You know, you might be right about only 2% clearing SWP by the time WoTLK is released, but you know what? After everyone hits 80....SWP will be 5 or even 2 manned. Now tell me that's not some bullshit.
You obviously do not have experience in SWP. It will never be two or five manned.
Hah, coming from a person who says SWP will be five or two-manned and claiming he has completed the instance, I find this ridiculous.
As for Everquest, I took part in raiding since the very beginning. Nothing in Everquest comes close to the coordination needed to defeat Mu'ru or Kil'Jaeden in SWP. The fact that there was a 72-player cap for raids also made many of the 'raiding accomplishments' more like a foaming-at-the mouth zerg than an organized raid. One thing I miss about Everquest raiding are the corpse runs. WoW made this too easy, but then again nearly every raid encounter in WoW is instanced with timed repops, so I guess a similar dynamic to EQ would not make sense.
Anyone can type what they want here in relative anonymity, but truly, get your facts straight, the reason why SWP and all the other raid instances in WoW were cleared so quickly is that there were as many people playing that raid content as there were people playing EQ back in the day.
Tell me fight in Everquest that compares to complexity and difficulty when weighed against Kil'Jaeden or Mu'ru or even an early TBC encounter like Kael'Thas. This is a matter of opinion again, but I do not think there are any. So much of EQ raiding was pure brute forcing that I find your arguments a bit odd.
I have a family, own a successful business, have 2 kids and am in the best shape of my life. And I still like EQ1's raiding style better than WoWs.
You think the way EQ did raids was bad and makes former EQ players weak and single? Hell, boy, I'm betting all players who played an MMO before WoW and currently play WoW have logged in 8-hour play sessions on a regular basis. Current WoW raiders are 8-hour a day players. It takes what, 2 hours to run dailies in WoW? Then add on any rep farming or AH or crafting for another 2 hours, then add on a nightly raid for 4 hours from setup to completion.Countless players state how wow is super addictive.
And as for real life being for hardcore players? Real life is for people that have no challenge on a daily basis. My day is long and hard. I can travel 2000 miles a day sometimes if I'm travelling (which is common). I play these games to (believe it or not) unwind at the end of it all. If I make a bad deal or have a deal fall through, I know that I can clear my mind of the negativity by logging into a game and leaving the real world behind.
The guilds that clear end-game content among the first in the world can wipe for just eight hours in a row on a given encounter. In fact, it took us over 36 hours of wiping on both Mu'ru and Kil'Jaeden before we had them down, not back-to-back of course but we had several over twelve-hour gaming sessions in SWP. One thing does ring true, once you have the strategy down and nobody in the raid makes a mistake, you can not wipe on a previously defeated encounter more than once or twice due to random elements(If you posses the sufficient gear level.).
In general, you are correct, WoW does cater to the casual gaming crowd, but the game also has the best and most demanding PvE raiding content in the world at the moment.
As nice as this would be to believe...People said that Ony would be impossible with anything less than 30 or so players, peopel said that Rags would take a minimum of 20 extremely well geared players because the sons would kill you...hell, people said that C'thun was downright IMPOSSIBLE.
And yet...Onyxia has been solo'ed, Rags is a joke, and C'thun is PuG'able now.
I've seen the SWP fights, they don't have mechanics that are any different than the old fights, they're just hgiher level and have some curveballs...no real reason that they would be impossible to five man, or even two man...Even the Kil'Jaden fight could concievably three manned...The gear, ability, and stat disparity that will exist between 70 and 80 will be even greater than it was from 60 to 70...and it will continue to be this way until WoW fades into obscurity...old content will become trivial even to casuals...and your progress will ultimately mean nothing...Just because it hurts your pride now to think that someday people will PuG what you have worked your ass off to achieve, doesn't make it untrue.
Which, by the way, I am not saying that you haven't put in a great deal of work...I know what it's like to raid WoW's PvE end game, I've been there...props to you if you have put in the man hours to kill Kil"jaden...I'm just saying...be realistic here.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
As nice as this would be to believe...People said that Ony would be impossible with anything less than 30 or so players, peopel said that Rags would take a minimum of 20 extremely well geared players because the sons would kill you...hell, people said that C'thun was downright IMPOSSIBLE.
And yet...Onyxia has been solo'ed, Rags is a joke, and C'thun is PuG'able now.
I've seen the SWP fights, they don't have mechanics that are any different than the old fights, they're just hgiher level and have some curveballs...no real reason that they would be impossible to five man, or even two man...Even the Kil'Jaden fight could concievably three manned...The gear, ability, and stat disparity that will exist between 70 and 80 will be even greater than it was from 60 to 70...and it will continue to be this way until WoW fades into obscurity...old content will become trivial even to casuals...and your progress will ultimately mean nothing...Just because it hurts your pride now to think that someday people will PuG what you have worked your ass off to achieve, doesn't make it untrue.
Which, by the way, I am not saying that you haven't put in a great deal of work...I know what it's like to raid WoW's PvE end game, I've been there...props to you if you have put in the man hours to kill Kil"jaden...I'm just saying...be realistic here.
The gear and the DPS is not enough at 80, no way. Hell, Naxx is not five manneable at the moment.